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Date: 21 Dec 2006 05:46:45
From: CN
Subject: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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I was under the impression that that amout is 6 grams per hour.
I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
Can somebody expailn what is going on?
Thanks
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 13:23:21
From: Daniel
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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> Also, he said the protein is attached to fat and they are both slow
> burning/assimilated. Well, that is exactly what you want in any endurance
> race. IE anything longer than 20 minutes.
Its actually the intensity of the activity which plays a role here, not
the time span. You burn fat for fuel more efficiently at a lower
intensity while you burn carbs more effectively at a higher intensity.
Since a lot of training (not base miles) and racing are done at very
high levels of intensity, carbs are the more efficient here. If you
are doing a 5 day recreational tour of Arizona..more fat would be
utilized..but still not to the extent of the carbs.
And also, I never implied that milk could not be digested in whatever
scenario..I just said that for providing rapid energy transfer, it
would certainly come in second to a carb/electrolyte drink.
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Date: 25 Dec 2006 03:18:38
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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>>>And also, I never implied that milk could not be digested in whatever
scenario..I just said that for providing rapid energy transfer, it
would certainly come in second to a carb/electrolyte drink.<<<
I thought you were comparing it to whey powder because that is what we were
discussing. Milk is not the same as whey protein powder. I did not say you
said it because I said it. Milk cannot be digested by alot of people so you
are actually telling people to starve and see how they feel. Simple eh!
Plus as I said eat more balanced including protein not just calorie dense
Cytosport.
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 09:50:05
From: peter
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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nash wrote:
> "Daniel" <remixrobot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1166917834.661106.312100@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Protein is not an energy source, it is a building piece.
> Good post but you would be starving to death on the milk since you cannot
> digest milk.
I don't know about Daniel, but my body can certainly digest milk and
wouldn't object to drinking it on my bike rides if I had a good way of
keeping it fresh. But I'd rather have something that's more
concentrated in carbohydrates with a bit of added salt (Na, K).
> I asked about whey protein powder supplement, chocolate flavored, and having
> just drank some blended with milk I can say it is not bitter but sweet..
> Also, I never suggested you eat or drink only protein.
Terry and Daniel are correct that the priy source of energy for
muscles comes from carbohydrates. Protein can provide some energy, but
not as quickly or efficiently, and is of priy importance for
rebuilding tissues during the recovery process. No need to consume any
right before or during exercise.
> You can eat what ever you want on the 2 hour trip. But the next day try
> drinking 5 gallons of gatorade before the race and see how you feel. It is
> that simple folks.
I don't think I'd feel much like racing after drinking 5 gallons of
anything - what point are you trying to make here?
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 19:18:43
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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>>>>Terry and Daniel are correct that the priy source of energy for
muscles comes from carbohydrates. Protein can provide some energy, but
not as quickly or efficiently, and is of priy importance for
rebuilding tissues during the recovery process. No need to consume any
right before or during exercise.<<<
Cytogainer is another product from Daniels quoted preferred drink.
Look, protein, like I said can be of use during workouts in whey powder.
Cytosport page...
CytoGainer
Lean Muscle Maximizer
CytoGainer is a calorically dense, easy-to-digest lean muscle maximizing
formula.
Combined with a serious strength training regimen and a sensible, healthy
diet, you will notice immediate gains in muscle mass and bodyweight when
supplementing with CytoGainer.
CytoGainer is almost entirely complex carbs and ultra high quality whey
protein. The protein is glutamine-rich, partially pre-digested whey peptides
for easy digestibility - it gets into your muscles fast. Carbs are complex
maltodextrins from corn hybrids - stabilizes energy and prevents sugar
crash.
CytoGainer:
a.. Promotes an anabolic environment in your body - no more muscle
catabolism due to lack of calories
b.. Allows massive caloric intake without the digestive distress and extra
fat of solid meals
c.. Mixes instantly in water so you can ingest calories immediately after
training. No blender required.
The point I am making about the 5gal before a race is humor since he
compared drinking milk to my proposed chocolate flavored
whey protein powder. That is no where close and if you starve for 5 hours
while eating nothing for 3 hours and
running up a mountain for two hours is not a good comparison. That is his
comparison.
Just showing you that whey powder is a good thing. Cyto whatever says it
gets into the muscles fast.
His experiment was preposterous.
All this thread seems to be about is carbs consumed. That is not all
someone gets from protein bars and gel which
is I suppose used by athletes during a race.
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 15:50:34
From: Daniel
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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Protein is not an energy source, it is a building piece.
Our bodies dont burn protein for fuel...not effeciently at least. Our
bodies use protien to rebuild what has been damaged/depleted from
exercise. Proteins are usually linked with fats which have a very slow
rate of utility.
Try not eating for a few hours and then hopping on your trainer for a 2
hour intense spin. Consume nothing but ordinary water and milk. See
how you feel.
Then do the same ting the next day but consume only water and a
highquality sports drink like Cytomax (amazing) or Any other endurance
type blend. See how you feel.
And to clear up the 66grams per hour...Our body may need more but it
just cant keep up with the demands of breaking down nutrients....this
really isnt that hard to grasp people.
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 17:11:23
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"Daniel" <remixrobot@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1166917834.661106.312100@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Protein is not an energy source, it is a building piece.
>
> Our bodies dont burn protein for fuel...not effeciently at least. Our
> bodies use protien to rebuild what has been damaged/depleted from
> exercise. Proteins are usually linked with fats which have a very slow
> rate of utility.
>
> Try not eating for a few hours and then hopping on your trainer for a 2
> hour intense spin. Consume nothing but ordinary water and milk. See
> how you feel.
>
> Then do the same ting the next day but consume only water and a
> highquality sports drink like Cytomax (amazing) or Any other endurance
> type blend. See how you feel.
>
> And to clear up the 66grams per hour...Our body may need more but it
> just cant keep up with the demands of breaking down nutrients....this
> really isnt that hard to grasp people.
Good post but you would be starving to death on the milk since you cannot
digest milk.
I asked about whey protein powder supplement, chocolate flavored, and having
just drank some blended with milk I can say it is not bitter but sweet..
Also, I never suggested you eat or drink only protein.
You can eat what ever you want on the 2 hour trip. But the next day try
drinking 5 gallons of gatorade before the race and see how you feel. It is
that simple folks.
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 10:25:02
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote:
> You can eat what ever you want on the 2 hour trip. But the next day try
> drinking 5 gallons of gatorade before the race and see how you feel. It is
> that simple folks.
What is that simple? That drinking 5 gallons of anything is a really
bad idea? I don't think you'll get an argument over that point.
Please state your idea, I'm not following.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 19:26:11
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"Terry Morse" <tmorse@spamcop.net > wrote in message
news:tmorse-A83829.10245924122006@news.covad.net...
> "nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net> wrote:
>
>> You can eat what ever you want on the 2 hour trip. But the next day try
>> drinking 5 gallons of gatorade before the race and see how you feel. It
>> is
>> that simple folks.
>
> What is that simple? That drinking 5 gallons of anything is a really
> bad idea? I don't think you'll get an argument over that point.
>
> Please state your idea, I'm not following.
> --
> terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
Also, he said the protein is attached to fat and they are both slow
burning/assimilated. Well, that is exactly what you want in any endurance
race. IE anything longer than 20 minutes. I believe 20 minutes is when the
muscle glycogen runs out. Their sport drink has all that figured out. I do
not and will not buy sport drinks as you know from the summer gatorade
homemade post I put up. I did discover whey protein powder at the Price
St in bulk which after googling whey protein powder it came still as the
cheapest source. About $5/lb so as a vegetarian's supplement or athlete's
it would work in a pinch.
Also, balance was what I professed. As did our company nurse.
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Date: 25 Dec 2006 12:16:04
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote:
> Also, he said the protein is attached to fat and they are both slow
> burning/assimilated. Well, that is exactly what you want in any
> endurance race. IE anything longer than 20 minutes.
Slow burning? I'm again confused. I see no need for a slow burning
fuel like protein in a race. The muscles are using carbohydrate
faster than the body can take it in. You want the fuel that will get
to the working muscles as quickly as possible, and that fuel is
simple carbohydrate. That's what muscles need to do work.
The purpose of fueling during a race is to keep from running out of
glycogen. When glycogen stores run out, you are forced to rely on
the slower fat metabolism, and you must slow way down.
> I believe 20 minutes is when the muscle glycogen runs out.
90 minutes is the commonly accepted figure, assuming no carb intake
during exercise.
> Their sport drink has all that figured out.
If you're talking about Hammer products, take their keting
information with a very large grain of salt. Some of their claims
are pretty slim on the science.
FYI, here is a very recent study of protein used during exercise:
van Essen, Gibala: "Failure of protein to improve time trial
performance when added to a sports drink"
CONCLUSION: Ingesting 6% carbohydrate at a rate of 1 L.h(-1) (60
g.h(-1)) improved an 80-km TT performance in trained male cyclists.
However, adding 2% protein to a 6% carbohydrate drink provided no
additional performance benefit during a task that closely simulated
the manner in which athletes typically compete.
http://tinyurl.com/sukg6
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com
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Date: 25 Dec 2006 21:23:33
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"Terry Morse" <tmorse@spamcop.net > wrote in message
news:tmorse-D0AFD3.12160425122006@news.covad.net...
> "nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net> wrote:
>
>> Also, he said the protein is attached to fat and they are both slow
>> burning/assimilated. Well, that is exactly what you want in any
>> endurance race. IE anything longer than 20 minutes.
>
> Slow burning? I'm again confused. I see no need for a slow burning
> fuel like protein in a race. The muscles are using carbohydrate
> faster than the body can take it in. You want the fuel that will get
> to the working muscles as quickly as possible, and that fuel is
> simple carbohydrate. That's what muscles need to do work.
>
> The purpose of fueling during a race is to keep from running out of
> glycogen. When glycogen stores run out, you are forced to rely on
> the slower fat metabolism, and you must slow way down.
>
>> I believe 20 minutes is when the muscle glycogen runs out.
>
> 90 minutes is the commonly accepted figure, assuming no carb intake
> during exercise.
>
>> Their sport drink has all that figured out.
>
> If you're talking about Hammer products, take their keting
> information with a very large grain of salt. Some of their claims
> are pretty slim on the science.
>
> FYI, here is a very recent study of protein used during exercise:
>
> van Essen, Gibala: "Failure of protein to improve time trial
> performance when added to a sports drink"
>
> CONCLUSION: Ingesting 6% carbohydrate at a rate of 1 L.h(-1) (60
> g.h(-1)) improved an 80-km TT performance in trained male cyclists.
> However, adding 2% protein to a 6% carbohydrate drink provided no
> additional performance benefit during a task that closely simulated
> the manner in which athletes typically compete.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/sukg6
>
>
> --
> terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours -
http://www.udctours.com
Thanks
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Date: 24 Dec 2006 19:42:31
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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Cyto muscle milk has 50% protein
and 195 calories per 50 gms
nutrition facts here near the bottom, whey on top of the list meaning mostly
whey.
http://www17.netrition.com/cytosport_muscle_milk_light_page.html
So if you used that milk in D's experiment you could get comparable results.
And how do you know, if you do like milk that you are digesting and
assimilating it all? You just think you are.
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 19:32:49
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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In article <Br%ih.102$9f5.28@newsfe05.lga >,
"GaryG" <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com > writes:
> "nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net> wrote in message
> news:yWVih.508028$1T2.8611@pd7urf2no...
>> Why would you not need extra protein.
>> Carbs put you to sleep is what the dietician at work says.
>> Protein is good to eat when you are doing physical work, to feed the
>> muscles.
>>
>> And, on that note I bought some organic whey protein powder , chocolate
>> flavor, when do people use this stuff. Before, during, after or all the
>> time?
>> I just bought it as a protein supplement cause I do not eat much meat.
> Kind
>> of like eating dessert soy tofu.
>>
>> thanks
>> SN
>>
>
> I sometimes use protein powder, with carbs, *after* a hard ride.
The rule-of-thumb as I admittedly simplistically understand it is:
carbs for energy before/during effort, and protein afterward
to help rebuild muscle and other tissues.
> Some folks
> use protein in drinks while on the bike, but I don't like the taste of
> protein when I'm riding, and the stuff makes the water bottles nasty
> (especially on a hot day).
I find an input of simple (or "bad", as in jelly donuts or
a can of Coke) carbohydrates gives me a pretty good energy
spike. But it's short-lived. Good enough to ride home
after a hard day's work, though. However, if I eat something
protein-y along with it, it seems to buffer or moderate my
carb uptake to an extent, resulting in a less severe but longer
lasting energy boost. That's just my empirical experience.
I've used texturized soy protein in spaghetti sauce.
It works okay. It's claimed that the stuff by itself
is tasteless, but I detect a somewhat unpleasant effect
lingers on the palate. It's not exactly an aftertaste.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's related to your experience
with "nasty" water bottles on hot days. There's something
skunky about phyto-protein.
When one can't decide between phyto-protein and zoo-protein,
maybe that's the time to opt for fish :-)
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 22:56:57
From: GaryG
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
"Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:118ime.phh.ln@bud.garden.local...
> In article <Br%ih.102$9f5.28@newsfe05.lga>,
> "GaryG" <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> writes:
> > "nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net> wrote in message
> > news:yWVih.508028$1T2.8611@pd7urf2no...
> >> Why would you not need extra protein.
> >> Carbs put you to sleep is what the dietician at work says.
> >> Protein is good to eat when you are doing physical work, to feed the
> >> muscles.
> >>
> >> And, on that note I bought some organic whey protein powder , chocolate
> >> flavor, when do people use this stuff. Before, during, after or all
the
> >> time?
> >> I just bought it as a protein supplement cause I do not eat much meat.
> > Kind
> >> of like eating dessert soy tofu.
> >>
> >> thanks
> >> SN
> >>
> >
> > I sometimes use protein powder, with carbs, *after* a hard ride.
>
> The rule-of-thumb as I admittedly simplistically understand it is:
> carbs for energy before/during effort, and protein afterward
> to help rebuild muscle and other tissues.
I think you need carbs post-ride too, to help rebuild your depleted glycogen
stores.
Post-ride, I usually just dump a scoop of whey protein into a tall glass of
orange juice and call it good.
> > Some folks
> > use protein in drinks while on the bike, but I don't like the taste of
> > protein when I'm riding, and the stuff makes the water bottles nasty
> > (especially on a hot day).
>
> I find an input of simple (or "bad", as in jelly donuts or
> a can of Coke) carbohydrates gives me a pretty good energy
> spike. But it's short-lived. Good enough to ride home
> after a hard day's work, though. However, if I eat something
> protein-y along with it, it seems to buffer or moderate my
> carb uptake to an extent, resulting in a less severe but longer
> lasting energy boost. That's just my empirical experience.
On all-day rides, I agree...a turkey or tuna sandwich for lunch will keep
you going for the rest of the day, without the sugar crash.
> I've used texturized soy protein in spaghetti sauce.
> It works okay. It's claimed that the stuff by itself
> is tasteless, but I detect a somewhat unpleasant effect
> lingers on the palate. It's not exactly an aftertaste.
> I wouldn't be surprised if that's related to your experience
> with "nasty" water bottles on hot days. There's something
> skunky about phyto-protein.
FWIW, the water bottle nastiness I was describing was due to the fact that
protein (whey or soy-based) doesn't dissolve in water. It's more of a
suspension, and it's not at all unusual for protein to clump up a bit,
and/or stick to the walls and spout of the water bottle. Plus, I find the
taste of most sport drinks with protein (e.g., Endurox) is awful.
GG
> When one can't decide between phyto-protein and zoo-protein,
> maybe that's the time to opt for fish :-)
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 17:46:35
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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>>>>FWIW, the water bottle nastiness I was describing was due to the fact
>>>>that
> protein (whey or soy-based) doesn't dissolve in water. It's more of a
> suspension, and it's not at all unusual for protein to clump up a bit,
> and/or stick to the walls and spout of the water bottle. Plus, I find the
> taste of most sport drinks with protein (e.g., Endurox) is awful.
>
That means you could blend it and drink it before a ride though.
The night before you could have a high carbo meal and it makes you sleep
too.
Protein would still be good during a ride for the muscles is what I am
saying.
The bars and gel have protein right so I guess they think it is a good idea
for your
muscles while they are doing the work.
I do not know if protein takes too long to assimilate. Nurses were talking
about an 8 hour
day but I feel having protein before and during work makes me stronger.
Plus it would be more
balanced than just carbs before and during.
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Date: 23 Dec 2006 13:37:46
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
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"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote:
> Protein would still be good during a ride for the muscles is what I am
> saying.
> The bars and gel have protein right so I guess they think it is a good idea
> for your muscles while they are doing the work.
There is little evidence that protein affects performance during
exercise. The studies that were done to compare protein vs
non-protein nutrition were poorly done and are not widely accepted.
I don't take protein during exerices, waiting instead until I'm off
the bike.
--
terry morse - Unidscoverec Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 13:54:48
From:
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> Joseph wrote:
>
> > Both the glycogen stores and the caloric needs are higher for
> > larger, heavier riders. I assume the capacity for carb uptake is higher
> > for them too?
>
> One would think that a larger person would have a larger uptake
> capacity, but the 1.1 g/hr rate already is the reported upper end.
>
> The biggest variation in carb needs is how hard you are riding. At
> this time of year, when I'm not particularly fit, I am working
> harder and burning more carbs and less fat. Therefore, I need to
> take in more carbs. In Summer, when my fitness is better, I can do a
> 4-hour ride with nothing but a sports drink.
The rides where fueling is a concern for me are in the 7-19 hour range.
These are done at 80% of max HR, or about 90% of what I believe is my
LT HR. I figure my carb/fat % at this effort level is about 75/25. I
often (ok, sometimes...) take long rides (3+ hours) in the morning
before eating with nothing other than water, so perhaps I have trained
my fat metabolism such that my carb/fat ratio is different?
Joseph
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 07:37:47
From: peter
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
CN wrote:
> I was under the impression that that amout is 6 grams per hour.
>
> I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
>
> Can somebody expailn what is going on?
Where did the 6 g/hr figure come from? That's only a little over 20
Calories/hr which seems pretty small if you're really trying to make a
dent in your energy needs during exercise. It might be helpful in
providing some stimulation to your body to use its existing energy
reserves, but isn't really adding much to them.
The 73 g/hr is a bit on the high side of how much you can probably
fully metabolize while exercising strenuously, but is still under 300
Cal/hr so you'd still be running an energy deficit and have to rely
partly on stored reserves.
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 18:59:42
From: nash
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Why would you not need extra protein.
Carbs put you to sleep is what the dietician at work says.
Protein is good to eat when you are doing physical work, to feed the
muscles.
And, on that note I bought some organic whey protein powder , chocolate
flavor, when do people use this stuff. Before, during, after or all the
time?
I just bought it as a protein supplement cause I do not eat much meat. Kind
of like eating dessert soy tofu.
thanks
SN
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 17:20:22
From: GaryG
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote in message
news:yWVih.508028$1T2.8611@pd7urf2no...
> Why would you not need extra protein.
> Carbs put you to sleep is what the dietician at work says.
> Protein is good to eat when you are doing physical work, to feed the
> muscles.
>
> And, on that note I bought some organic whey protein powder , chocolate
> flavor, when do people use this stuff. Before, during, after or all the
> time?
> I just bought it as a protein supplement cause I do not eat much meat.
Kind
> of like eating dessert soy tofu.
>
> thanks
> SN
>
I sometimes use protein powder, with carbs, *after* a hard ride. Some folks
use protein in drinks while on the bike, but I don't like the taste of
protein when I'm riding, and the stuff makes the water bottles nasty
(especially on a hot day).
GG
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 07:18:16
From: CN
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> "CN" <cnudell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
> >
> > Can somebody expailn what is going on?
>
> What's the product, and what's the intended use for it?
>
> The body can't absorb 73 grams of carbs in an hour, especially not
> during exercise.
> --
> terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
The product is Sustained Energy by Hammer Nutrition.
I am using it on longer that 90 min (up to 6hr Centuries) rides.
Average speed is between 16-19, depends on distance, terrain, winds,
mood,...
I read your other posts and will try to consume 2 scoops / hour (or 50
grams) and will adjust from there based on what else I am consuming and
energy level.
Thanks for this helpful advice.
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Date: 22 Dec 2006 00:34:50
From:
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
> > 66 grams x 4 calories is only 264 calories an hour, so by that logic
> > anyone riding in a race and burning 800+ calories an hour must be
> > sucking that out of body fat, which would still not prevent a bad bonk
> > even if consuming all possible carbs.
>
> Yes, some of the energy is coming from stored fat. Some is coming
> from stored glycogen, and some is coming from carbs eaten. The bonk
> can be avoided in almost all cases, thanks to the body's stored fat
> and glycogen.
>
> The body simply cannot take in enough fuel to balance the energy
> output in a race. Trying to do so will just make you sick. The
> benefit of taking in carbs during a race is to delay running out of
> glycogen stores, not to replace all the fuel used.
>
> A trained rider starts out a race with up to 2000 kcal of glycogen
> in muscle and liver tissue. If he's riding tempo and burning 700
> kcal/hr, he's probably burning 60% carbs and 40% fat, making his
> glycogen burn rate 420 kcal/hr. If he eats 250 kcal of carbs, his
> net glycogen deficit is 170 kcal/hr. Note that there is no way
> around this, he has to rely on stored glycogen to finish.
>
> At a deficit rate of 170 kcal/hr, his glycogen stores will run out
> in a little less than 12 hours. That's long enough for just about
> any race, except maybe the 24-hour variety. But in that type of
> race, he's going slower, burning fewer carbs, and relying more
> heavily on stored fat.
>
> There's a secondary benefit to taking in carbs. It seems the body
> has a mysterious internal governor that limits cycling intensity
> based on stored glycogen. When glycogen stores are low, the governor
> makes the body "slow down". But if you take in carbs while riding,
> the governor seems to interpret this as permission to go harder.
I was just working on a spreadsheet yesterday to figure the caloric
needs and subsequent food needs for guys I ride century type rides
with. Both the glycogen stores and the caloric needs are higher for
larger, heavier riders. I assume the capacity for carb uptake is higher
for them too?
I was figuring the limiting factor in how many calories I could supply
during a long ride was limited by logistics. But if any additional
calories above around 300 are not absorbed, the logistics problem goes
away. I suppose my only option is to get better fitness so I can
increase my percentage of fat buring at a given power output, or better
train my fat metabolism.
The problem for me is I have been on long rides where it seems I both
consumed and used more than the 270 kcal/hr if I figure the speed and
duration of the ride, as well as my glycogen stores.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 09:54:53
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Joseph wrote:
> Both the glycogen stores and the caloric needs are higher for
> larger, heavier riders. I assume the capacity for carb uptake is higher
> for them too?
One would think that a larger person would have a larger uptake
capacity, but the 1.1 g/hr rate already is the reported upper end.
The biggest variation in carb needs is how hard you are riding. At
this time of year, when I'm not particularly fit, I am working
harder and burning more carbs and less fat. Therefore, I need to
take in more carbs. In Summer, when my fitness is better, I can do a
4-hour ride with nothing but a sports drink.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
|
| | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 14:46:03
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Terry Morse wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> 66 grams x 4 calories is only 264 calories an hour, so by that logic
>>> anyone riding in a race and burning 800+ calories an hour must be
>>> sucking that out of body fat, which would still not prevent a bad bonk
>>> even if consuming all possible carbs.
>> Yes, some of the energy is coming from stored fat. Some is coming
>> from stored glycogen, and some is coming from carbs eaten. The bonk
>> can be avoided in almost all cases, thanks to the body's stored fat
>> and glycogen.
>>
>> The body simply cannot take in enough fuel to balance the energy
>> output in a race. Trying to do so will just make you sick. The
>> benefit of taking in carbs during a race is to delay running out of
>> glycogen stores, not to replace all the fuel used.
>>
>> A trained rider starts out a race with up to 2000 kcal of glycogen
>> in muscle and liver tissue. If he's riding tempo and burning 700
>> kcal/hr, he's probably burning 60% carbs and 40% fat, making his
>> glycogen burn rate 420 kcal/hr. If he eats 250 kcal of carbs, his
>> net glycogen deficit is 170 kcal/hr. Note that there is no way
>> around this, he has to rely on stored glycogen to finish.
>>
>> At a deficit rate of 170 kcal/hr, his glycogen stores will run out
>> in a little less than 12 hours. That's long enough for just about
>> any race, except maybe the 24-hour variety. But in that type of
>> race, he's going slower, burning fewer carbs, and relying more
>> heavily on stored fat.
>>
>> There's a secondary benefit to taking in carbs. It seems the body
>> has a mysterious internal governor that limits cycling intensity
>> based on stored glycogen. When glycogen stores are low, the governor
>> makes the body "slow down". But if you take in carbs while riding,
>> the governor seems to interpret this as permission to go harder.
>
> I was just working on a spreadsheet yesterday to figure the caloric
> needs and subsequent food needs for guys I ride century type rides
> with. Both the glycogen stores and the caloric needs are higher for
> larger, heavier riders. I assume the capacity for carb uptake is higher
> for them too?
>
> I was figuring the limiting factor in how many calories I could supply
> during a long ride was limited by logistics. But if any additional
> calories above around 300 are not absorbed, the logistics problem goes
> away. I suppose my only option is to get better fitness so I can
> increase my percentage of fat buring at a given power output, or better
> train my fat metabolism.
>
> The problem for me is I have been on long rides where it seems I both
> consumed and used more than the 270 kcal/hr if I figure the speed and
> duration of the ride, as well as my glycogen stores.
>
> Joseph
>
Do I get at least a little "I told you so?". I know that between the
O.J. I drink and the food I get more than 300 kcals an hour or I would
be fried after 9 hours on the road, bicycle back woods, and some
carrying the bike up some near cliffs. This summer I am planning some
all day trips (about 15 hours) waaaay back in the woods and at much
higher elevations, and while I may sleep like the dead, (I could croak
myself, and some would cheer) but I plan on doing them. Not dead yet.
Bill Baka
|
| | | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 09:54:47
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Bill wrote:
> Do I get at least a little "I told you so?". I know that between the
> O.J. I drink and the food I get more than 300 kcals an hour or I would
> be fried after 9 hours on the road, bicycle back woods, and some
> carrying the bike up some near cliffs.
The literature says no, you don't get an "I told you so". If you're
taking in more than 300 kcal/hr, some of that food isn't getting to
your muscles.
But you have plenty of company. Many people overestimate how much
fuel they need while riding.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
|
| | | | |
Date: 23 Dec 2006 01:05:00
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Do I get at least a little "I told you so?". I know that between the
>> O.J. I drink and the food I get more than 300 kcals an hour or I would
>> be fried after 9 hours on the road, bicycle back woods, and some
>> carrying the bike up some near cliffs.
>
> The literature says no, you don't get an "I told you so". If you're
> taking in more than 300 kcal/hr, some of that food isn't getting to
> your muscles.
>
> But you have plenty of company. Many people overestimate how much
> fuel they need while riding.
That would go to explain why I lost weight during my 9 hour explorathons
in the woods a few summers back, no matter how much I weighed at the
time. When I got down to 142, my wife set the limit on me, since I
looked like a biking skeleton, to her and the neighbors, at least. What
fat I may have been burning, I don't know, but I did make it through
those rides, although, by your formula I was still losing about a pound
a day on total calorie loss.
?????
Bill Baka
|
| | | | | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 17:16:49
From: GaryG
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
"Bill" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:0h%ih.34862$wc5.19349@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
> Terry Morse wrote:
> > Bill wrote:
> >
> >> Do I get at least a little "I told you so?". I know that between the
> >> O.J. I drink and the food I get more than 300 kcals an hour or I would
> >> be fried after 9 hours on the road, bicycle back woods, and some
> >> carrying the bike up some near cliffs.
> >
> > The literature says no, you don't get an "I told you so". If you're
> > taking in more than 300 kcal/hr, some of that food isn't getting to
> > your muscles.
> >
> > But you have plenty of company. Many people overestimate how much
> > fuel they need while riding.
>
> That would go to explain why I lost weight during my 9 hour explorathons
> in the woods a few summers back, no matter how much I weighed at the
> time. When I got down to 142, my wife set the limit on me, since I
> looked like a biking skeleton, to her and the neighbors, at least. What
> fat I may have been burning, I don't know,
I'm thinking it was the fat stored between your ears.
GG
> but I did make it through
> those rides, although, by your formula I was still losing about a pound
> a day on total calorie loss.
> ?????
> Bill Baka
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 17:15:41
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
GaryG wrote:
> "Bill" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:0h%ih.34862$wc5.19349@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>> Terry Morse wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do I get at least a little "I told you so?". I know that between the
>>>> O.J. I drink and the food I get more than 300 kcals an hour or I would
>>>> be fried after 9 hours on the road, bicycle back woods, and some
>>>> carrying the bike up some near cliffs.
>>> The literature says no, you don't get an "I told you so". If you're
>>> taking in more than 300 kcal/hr, some of that food isn't getting to
>>> your muscles.
>>>
>>> But you have plenty of company. Many people overestimate how much
>>> fuel they need while riding.
>> That would go to explain why I lost weight during my 9 hour explorathons
>> in the woods a few summers back, no matter how much I weighed at the
>> time. When I got down to 142, my wife set the limit on me, since I
>> looked like a biking skeleton, to her and the neighbors, at least. What
>> fat I may have been burning, I don't know,
>
> I'm thinking it was the fat stored between your ears.
From you I would expect that, but I just consider the source, Mr.
Wikipedia. Explanation, "I just insulted you.".
Bill Baka
>
> GG
>
>> but I did make it through
>> those rides, although, by your formula I was still losing about a pound
>> a day on total calorie loss.
>> ?????
>> Bill Baka
>
>
|
| |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 07:28:28
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
"CN" <cnudell@gmail.com > wrote:
> I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
>
> Can somebody expailn what is going on?
What's the product, and what's the intended use for it?
The body can't absorb 73 grams of carbs in an hour, especially not
during exercise.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
|
| | |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 09:34:58
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> "CN" <cnudell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
>>
>> Can somebody expailn what is going on?
>
> What's the product, and what's the intended use for it?
>
> The body can't absorb 73 grams of carbs in an hour, especially not
> during exercise.
Why not?
That is still under 300 calories and a big soda with sugar is more than
that. The average 12 OZ. soda is from 120-150 Cal and drinking 2 per
hour is not out of the question on a hot day. I have mowed lawns in 110
degree weather and drank more than that just to keep up with the sweat
loss. I still lost weight on calories since I was burning about 600-700
per hour what with mowing and bagging an overgrown and large area.
Bill Baka
|
| | | |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 13:38:27
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Bill Baka wrote:
> Terry Morse wrote:
> >
> > The body can't absorb 73 grams of carbs in an hour, especially not
> > during exercise.
>
> Why not?
Because our bodies are not able to process more than that, I guess.
The accepted maximum uptake of carbohydrate is 1.1 g/min, or 66
g/hr. You can consume more than that (guts are pretty tolerant of
having food and drink crammed into them), but it won't do you any
good. It may even give you a belly ache. In fact, eating more than
1.1 g/min while exercising will almost guarantee a belly ache or
worse. Been there, done that.
(I should add that with a combined mix of 2 parts maltodextrin and 1
part fructose, one study has shown an uptake of 1.5 g/min. That's
the highest I've found in the literature.)
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 23:21:30
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Terry Morse wrote:
>>> The body can't absorb 73 grams of carbs in an hour, especially not
>>> during exercise.
>> Why not?
>
> Because our bodies are not able to process more than that, I guess.
>
> The accepted maximum uptake of carbohydrate is 1.1 g/min, or 66
> g/hr. You can consume more than that (guts are pretty tolerant of
> having food and drink crammed into them), but it won't do you any
> good. It may even give you a belly ache. In fact, eating more than
> 1.1 g/min while exercising will almost guarantee a belly ache or
> worse. Been there, done that.
>
> (I should add that with a combined mix of 2 parts maltodextrin and 1
> part fructose, one study has shown an uptake of 1.5 g/min. That's
> the highest I've found in the literature.)
There is something wrong with this. That indicates only about 6,000
calories per day if you consumed carbs 24 hours a day. Some people put
out that much in a work day and have to sleep 8 hours in between. There
are some very hard physical labor jobs out there that could not be done
with the calorie intake being quoted.
66 grams x 4 calories is only 264 calories an hour, so by that logic
anyone riding in a race and burning 800+ calories an hour must be
sucking that out of body fat, which would still not prevent a bad bonk
even if consuming all possible carbs. High fructose corn syrup is in
practically everything these days and it uptakes faster than normal
sugar so has been blamed as being at the forefront of the obesity pandemic.
Please show us your sources, because I am a non believer.
Bill Baka
|
| | | | | |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 15:52:08
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Bill Baka wrote:
> 66 grams x 4 calories is only 264 calories an hour, so by that logic
> anyone riding in a race and burning 800+ calories an hour must be
> sucking that out of body fat, which would still not prevent a bad bonk
> even if consuming all possible carbs.
Yes, some of the energy is coming from stored fat. Some is coming
from stored glycogen, and some is coming from carbs eaten. The bonk
can be avoided in almost all cases, thanks to the body's stored fat
and glycogen.
The body simply cannot take in enough fuel to balance the energy
output in a race. Trying to do so will just make you sick. The
benefit of taking in carbs during a race is to delay running out of
glycogen stores, not to replace all the fuel used.
A trained rider starts out a race with up to 2000 kcal of glycogen
in muscle and liver tissue. If he's riding tempo and burning 700
kcal/hr, he's probably burning 60% carbs and 40% fat, making his
glycogen burn rate 420 kcal/hr. If he eats 250 kcal of carbs, his
net glycogen deficit is 170 kcal/hr. Note that there is no way
around this, he has to rely on stored glycogen to finish.
At a deficit rate of 170 kcal/hr, his glycogen stores will run out
in a little less than 12 hours. That's long enough for just about
any race, except maybe the 24-hour variety. But in that type of
race, he's going slower, burning fewer carbs, and relying more
heavily on stored fat.
There's a secondary benefit to taking in carbs. It seems the body
has a mysterious internal governor that limits cycling intensity
based on stored glycogen. When glycogen stores are low, the governor
makes the body "slow down". But if you take in carbs while riding,
the governor seems to interpret this as permission to go harder.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 22 Dec 2006 00:10:14
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
Terry Morse wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> 66 grams x 4 calories is only 264 calories an hour, so by that logic
>> anyone riding in a race and burning 800+ calories an hour must be
>> sucking that out of body fat, which would still not prevent a bad bonk
>> even if consuming all possible carbs.
>
> Yes, some of the energy is coming from stored fat. Some is coming
> from stored glycogen, and some is coming from carbs eaten. The bonk
> can be avoided in almost all cases, thanks to the body's stored fat
> and glycogen.
>
> The body simply cannot take in enough fuel to balance the energy
> output in a race. Trying to do so will just make you sick. The
> benefit of taking in carbs during a race is to delay running out of
> glycogen stores, not to replace all the fuel used.
>
> A trained rider starts out a race with up to 2000 kcal of glycogen
> in muscle and liver tissue. If he's riding tempo and burning 700
> kcal/hr, he's probably burning 60% carbs and 40% fat, making his
> glycogen burn rate 420 kcal/hr. If he eats 250 kcal of carbs, his
> net glycogen deficit is 170 kcal/hr. Note that there is no way
> around this, he has to rely on stored glycogen to finish.
>
> At a deficit rate of 170 kcal/hr, his glycogen stores will run out
> in a little less than 12 hours. That's long enough for just about
> any race, except maybe the 24-hour variety. But in that type of
> race, he's going slower, burning fewer carbs, and relying more
> heavily on stored fat.
>
> There's a secondary benefit to taking in carbs. It seems the body
> has a mysterious internal governor that limits cycling intensity
> based on stored glycogen. When glycogen stores are low, the governor
> makes the body "slow down". But if you take in carbs while riding,
> the governor seems to interpret this as permission to go harder.
No argument here, but then my max seems to be about 400 kcal/hr., so a 9
hour ride with lots of food still causes weight loss. I'm sore after
that much saddle time, but not actually tired due to the continuous carb
intake. My water bottles are filled with O.J., not H2O.
Bill Baka
|
| |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 06:38:21
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
CN <cnudell@gmail.com > wrote:
> I was under the impression that that amout is 6 grams per hour.
Six grams of carbohydrate (presumably) per hour would be about 42
calories per hour. That's not even close to being sufficient if you're
trying for some sort of calorie replacement.
> I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
So, 73 * 7 = 511 calories per hour? I'm assuming this is some sort of
drink mix. 511 calories would be about right for long distance riding I
suppose. It would help if you would tell us what sort of riding this is
for. Really, most of these things aren't that necessary. I don't
bother worrying about food or water until the rides get longer than
thirty miles. Your mileage may vary.
> Can somebody expailn what is going on?
You're overanalyzing? Go out and ride a bike.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"We are not without accomplishment.
We have managed to distribute poverty equally."
-Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
|
| |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 09:38:02
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Amount of carbs to consum per hour
|
CN wrote:
:: I was under the impression that that amout is 6 grams per hour.
::
:: I am using a product that lists 73 grams per 3 scoops per hour.
::
:: Can somebody expailn what is going on?
::
:: Thanks
Why don't you try explaining what you are talking about....
|
|
