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Date: 19 Jul 2007 15:25:16
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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Virginia speeders who go 20 mph more than the speed limit are subject to
huge fines as reported in a NY Times article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/19/us/19virginia.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=login
From the article,
"Clay Morad, a driver in Arlington who signed the petition [seeking
repeal of the legislation], said: “There are other ways to get these
road projects done. I’d be more than willing to pay an extra dollar per
year in taxes to avoid having to worry about getting a $2,500 fine for
going above the speed limit.”
Hey Clay, if you don't want to spend a long time in jail or face the
death penaly, don't murder someone. Similarly, if you don't want to
worry about getting a huge fine for speeding, don't go 20 mph over the
limit. No gross speeding, no worries.
Wayne
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 08:34:14
From:
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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Hey Wayne,
How is it working for Kaine? Because surely you must feel great
underneath him. Are you kissing ass for a nice large raise which will
come from VA's idiotic new law. Maybe you're just from VA originally
and have been drinking the water way too long.
You're completely retarded to think $2500 or a year in jail fits 20
miles over. Maybe in your delapidated southern-redneck,
confederate,chevy truck that barely gets upto 40 you have nothing to
worry about.
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 12:04:54
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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vaccaro.chris@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey Wayne,
>
> How is it working for Kaine? Because surely you must feel great
> underneath him. Are you kissing ass for a nice large raise which will
> come from VA's idiotic new law. Maybe you're just from VA originally
> and have been drinking the water way too long.
>
> You're completely retarded to think $2500 or a year in jail fits 20
> miles over. Maybe in your delapidated southern-redneck,
> confederate,chevy truck that barely gets upto 40 you have nothing to
> worry about.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi Chris,
Bite me. Wanker.
Wayne
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Date: 19 Jul 2007 22:44:54
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:58:54 -0400, Wayne Pein wrote:
> Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>
>> I'm a Virginia motorist as well as a Virginia cyclist, and I'm not
>> particularly in favor of these fees.
>>
>> They are "fees," not "fines," because they're presented as administrative
>> charges by the DMV, rather than punishments under the law. I'd be in
>> favor of raising fines for many offenses on the "abuser fees" list,
>> anyway.
>>
>> However, it's not fair that the "abuser fees" apply *only* to Virginia
>> motorists to the exclusion of motorists from all other states. I'd
>> personally love to see Maryland and D.C. drivers paying up, but the law
>> that they passed doesn't allow for that.
>>
>> And don't misunderstand: the debate here in Virginia has nothing to do
>> with road safety--there are probably other, better ways of ensuring
>> that--and everything to do with the budget.
>
>
> There is obviously political wrangling going on, but I don't fully
> understand your objection to the law.
>
> If they are "fees," then it is fair that only Virginians pay them
> because they are your roads, even if others use them.
>
> If they are "fines," then they should be equally applied to everyone,
> but I think out of state motorists (especially) would have to be amply
> forewarned through ubiquitous signs. Without ample warning, then I think
> it is appropriate to not include those who would not know about it.
>
> In either case it punishes only those who choose to be punished.
I would prefer them to be *criminal* fines, rather than *civil* fees,
personally.
A criminal fine is intended to punish bad behavior, and thus deter it from
being repeated or emulated. A civil fee is meant to raise revenue. A
fine distinction, but a distinction that matters here, since the bill
intends to fund transportation improvements off these new fees.
From a fiscal standpoint, consider that the projected revenues from these
fees would equal adding a penny to state gasoline taxes. Now if these
fees work to curb bad behavior, great--but the fees become a victim of
their own "success," and we'll be left once again without any proper
transportation funding. On the other hand, if you find other ways of
assessing the regular users of the transport network--a penny on the gas
tax, say--then you're looking at more reliable funding.
So in short: I'd like Virginia to increase fines across the board, since
that would deter bad behavior. But I don't think that increasing fines in
this manner is the way to fund transportation improvements.
Forgive me for thinking like a citizen and not as a cyclist.
-Luigi
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 19 Jul 2007 20:19:13
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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I'm a Virginia motorist as well as a Virginia cyclist, and I'm not
particularly in favor of these fees.
They are "fees," not "fines," because they're presented as administrative
charges by the DMV, rather than punishments under the law. I'd be in
favor of raising fines for many offenses on the "abuser fees" list,
anyway.
However, it's not fair that the "abuser fees" apply *only* to Virginia
motorists to the exclusion of motorists from all other states. I'd
personally love to see Maryland and D.C. drivers paying up, but the law
that they passed doesn't allow for that.
And don't misunderstand: the debate here in Virginia has nothing to do
with road safety--there are probably other, better ways of ensuring
that--and everything to do with the budget. The Northern Virginia
counties, as well as the counties near Hampton Roads, need transportation
funding that the General Assembly won't give them in outright taxation.
Northern Virginia (everything north of the Rappahannock River) and Hampton
Roads together make up most of the state's economic activity and tax
receipts, but because of how the constitution here works, their abilities
to raise and spend taxes locally are limited. In effect, NoVA and Hampton
Roads *subsidize* the rest of the state.
So what you have is a political impasse: the localities which need
transportation improvements are constitutionally prohibited from funding
them locally. The state legislature refuses to grant them that
constitutional power--because delegates from poorer counties fear a
diversion of funds away from them. The only constitutionally acceptable
solutions are either (1) general taxation to fund transportation
improvements in NoVA and Hampton Roads; or (2) Questionable administrative
shenanigans like the user fees.
-Luigi
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 19 Jul 2007 17:58:54
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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Luigi de Guzman wrote:
> I'm a Virginia motorist as well as a Virginia cyclist, and I'm not
> particularly in favor of these fees.
>
> They are "fees," not "fines," because they're presented as administrative
> charges by the DMV, rather than punishments under the law. I'd be in
> favor of raising fines for many offenses on the "abuser fees" list,
> anyway.
>
> However, it's not fair that the "abuser fees" apply *only* to Virginia
> motorists to the exclusion of motorists from all other states. I'd
> personally love to see Maryland and D.C. drivers paying up, but the law
> that they passed doesn't allow for that.
>
> And don't misunderstand: the debate here in Virginia has nothing to do
> with road safety--there are probably other, better ways of ensuring
> that--and everything to do with the budget.
There is obviously political wrangling going on, but I don't fully
understand your objection to the law.
If they are "fees," then it is fair that only Virginians pay them
because they are your roads, even if others use them.
If they are "fines," then they should be equally applied to everyone,
but I think out of state motorists (especially) would have to be amply
forewarned through ubiquitous signs. Without ample warning, then I think
it is appropriate to not include those who would not know about it.
In either case it punishes only those who choose to be punished.
Wayne
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Date: 19 Jul 2007 22:12:37
From: Neil Brooks
Subject: Re: Why are most older people brush passers?
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On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:01:19 -0600, "Pat" <Pat@starrynight.com > wrote:
>
>"Bill Sornson"--you were wrong. Luigi isn't a troll. You weren't there. He
>was. End of story. The next time you jump in on something, think before you
>shoot your mouth off.
Call me.
I'll check to see if a star appears in the East.
[looooong tired of it....]
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Date: 19 Jul 2007 23:26:35
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Are all Virginia motorists this dumb?
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Wayne Pein wrote:
> Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>
>> I'm a Virginia motorist as well as a Virginia cyclist, and I'm not
>> particularly in favor of these fees.
>>
>> They are "fees," not "fines," because they're presented as administrative
>> charges by the DMV, rather than punishments under the law. I'd be in
>> favor of raising fines for many offenses on the "abuser fees" list,
>> anyway.
>>
>> However, it's not fair that the "abuser fees" apply *only* to Virginia
>> motorists to the exclusion of motorists from all other states. I'd
>> personally love to see Maryland and D.C. drivers paying up, but the law
>> that they passed doesn't allow for that.
>>
>> And don't misunderstand: the debate here in Virginia has nothing to do
>> with road safety--there are probably other, better ways of ensuring
>> that--and everything to do with the budget.
>
>
> There is obviously political wrangling going on, but I don't fully
> understand your objection to the law.
>
> If they are "fees," then it is fair that only Virginians pay them
> because they are your roads, even if others use them.
>
> If they are "fines," then they should be equally applied to everyone,
> but I think out of state motorists (especially) would have to be amply
> forewarned through ubiquitous signs. Without ample warning, then I think
> it is appropriate to not include those who would not know about it.
>
> In either case it punishes only those who choose to be punished.
What would be clever would be to change the speed limits, say from
55-mph on a semi-rural expressway to 20-mph, after these large fines go
into effect.
In a fair society, fines would be a percentage of net financial worth,
not fixed dollar amounts.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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