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Main
Date: 01 Sep 2007 12:34:31
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
to time.
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 07:34:45
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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On Sep 3, 12:53 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> "Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1188751358.842199.240060@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sep 2, 9:14 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >> "Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1188675271.076078.284730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> >> > Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> >> > am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
> >> > winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> >> > carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> >> > vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
> >> > to time.
>
> >> If you're feeling some "effects" from the road, your problem isn't frame
> >> material, IMHO. You're having fit and/or tire problems. If I were you, I
> >> would try to get weight off my hands(raise the bar) and put the widest
> >> possible tire on the Trek, first.
>
> > It's a matter of degree too. I notice when I go over the rougher
> > streets but it's not horrible or long lasting. I like the overall fit
> > now on this bike. I do probably still have a little extra pressure on
> > my hands but the bars are up as far as I can go. I think it's partly
> > a size issue, I'm tall but moreso in my legs than in my arms.
>
> Are your elbows locked out? I have a tendency to lock my elbows and death
> grip the bar, and that will make elbows sore, for sure.
That could definitely play a role. I try to menatlly check how
relaxed I am on the bike every few minutes but when one is in traffic
that does become secondary to making sure one avoids accidents.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 09:42:38
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 2, 9:14 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> "Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1188675271.076078.284730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> > Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> > am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
> > winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> > carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> > vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
> > to time.
>
> If you're feeling some "effects" from the road, your problem isn't frame
> material, IMHO. You're having fit and/or tire problems. If I were you, I
> would try to get weight off my hands(raise the bar) and put the widest
> possible tire on the Trek, first.
It's a matter of degree too. I notice when I go over the rougher
streets but it's not horrible or long lasting. I like the overall fit
now on this bike. I do probably still have a little extra pressure on
my hands but the bars are up as far as I can go. I think it's partly
a size issue, I'm tall but moreso in my legs than in my arms.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 19:53:22
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
"Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1188751358.842199.240060@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 2, 9:14 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> "Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1188675271.076078.284730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
>> > Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
>> > am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
>> > winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
>> > carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
>> > vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
>> > to time.
>>
>> If you're feeling some "effects" from the road, your problem isn't frame
>> material, IMHO. You're having fit and/or tire problems. If I were you, I
>> would try to get weight off my hands(raise the bar) and put the widest
>> possible tire on the Trek, first.
>
> It's a matter of degree too. I notice when I go over the rougher
> streets but it's not horrible or long lasting. I like the overall fit
> now on this bike. I do probably still have a little extra pressure on
> my hands but the bars are up as far as I can go. I think it's partly
> a size issue, I'm tall but moreso in my legs than in my arms.
Are your elbows locked out? I have a tendency to lock my elbows and death
grip the bar, and that will make elbows sore, for sure.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 09:40:36
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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On Sep 2, 2:51 pm, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> In article <1188703559.675360.87...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Jorg
>
> Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > What would the difference be beween an Allez and a Roubaix or whatever
> > the comporable Trek models are this year. Is there any difference in
> > comfort? Is it only mainly weight and speed?
>
> Can't comment on the two specific models. Perhaps the
> roadbikereview.com forums will be helpful.
>
> Specialized Bicycle Allez Comp Double:
> http://tinyurl.com/25h8jr
> Specialized Bicycle Roubaix Comp Double
> http://tinyurl.com/ye79f6
>
> Be selective when reading these reviews; they are often erroneous. Eg.
> the first review of the Allez Comp Double begins "Had been riding a
> 1976 Peugot PR-10 w/ Reynolds 531 aluminum frame..."
>
> If you ride predominantly on flat terrain, (along the Mississippi
> River?) don't expect minor weight differences between bikes to
> translate into significant decreases in commute times or energy
> expenditures. Try hooking up with a local group of riders; perhaps
> they'll be able to lend you the model you want or similar for some test
> rides.
It's flat aling the river but hilly coming out. It's about 350 ft
difference in a 3 mile strech on the one end but most of that is
cofined to two specific hills. The other way is pretty flat with
maybe 250 ft rise but spread out over the whole 10 miles. There are
other commuters but they each have their own preferences. Plus it's
hard to find people who ride on 60cm+ frames.
>
>
>
> > (P.S. it looks like all the mide range Trek road bikes only have 20
> > spokes).
>
> When/if you buy don't hestitate to haggle AND insist that undesirable
> components be swapped out, of course, revising the price accordingly as
> you go. If you're confronted with an inflexible or unaccommodating
> retailer take your money elsewhere.
Yes! That the was biggest mistake on my last purchase. The place had
a good bike at a good price but the subsequent service was abysmal.
But since then I';ve found a nice Trek and a nice Specialized dealer
so all is well. So you recommend swapping out the low spoke models?
I take it they are more suceptible to being damaged? Is it any harder
to true those wheels?
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 04:14:36
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
"Jorg Lueke" <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1188675271.076078.284730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
> to time.
If you're feeling some "effects" from the road, your problem isn't frame
material, IMHO. You're having fit and/or tire problems. If I were you, I
would try to get weight off my hands(raise the bar) and put the widest
possible tire on the Trek, first.
|
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 20:25:59
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 2, 2:04 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> In article <1188675271.076078.284...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, Jorg
>
> Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> > Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> > am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
> > winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> > carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> > vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
> > to time.
>
> I put about 750K per month commuting and running errands; here's my
> perspective. Don't buy carbon -- or scandium, Ti or CroMo for that
> matter -- anticipating that a greater or lesser degree of comfort
> inheres in the frame material. As landotter noted that's more a matter
> of fit and components.
>
> But, yes a lighter bike can make for a more enjoyable commute - not
> because it dampens road vibrations though. Among the bikes I regularly
> bike to work on is a an old Ti Sumitomo (A Muzi's shop), the commute
> morphs into a fast recreational ride with this bike - the nature of the
> bike influences how I ride and the route I choose. It's fun. :-)
>
> But care should be taken when opting for a lighter ride that durability
> not be sacrificed: IMO rolling to work on 20 or 24 spoke wheels is
> asking for headaches.
>
> Another steed in the stable is an old Reynolds 531 roadie converted to
> a fixie. This bike makes for an equally enjoyable commute, albeit
> slower. The Medici is ideal for exploring neighbourhoods and new
> routes; or a minimalist, elemental ride -- all under the guise of a
> commute.
>
> There's also the Nova.....
>
> But you get the idea. Your commute is what you make it: a race, a
> tourist trip, strictly a utilitarian activity, or a melange of all
> three. Get the bike that best suits how you define the proposition.
I think I'm stuck between the first two :). My current bike is fine
for the latter, rolling along the Mississippi and taking in the sights
instead of trying to stay awake on the freeway is a definite plus on
any bike. I guess I;m really looking for a speedier trip on some days
but hopefully with some comfort.
What would the difference be beween an Allez and a Roubaix or whatever
the comporable Trek models are this year. Is there any difference in
comfort? Is it only mainly weight and speed?
(P.S. it looks like all the mide range Trek road bikes only have 20
spokes).
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 09:51:25
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
In article <1188703559.675360.87700@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, Jorg
Lueke <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com > wrote:
> What would the difference be beween an Allez and a Roubaix or whatever
> the comporable Trek models are this year. Is there any difference in
> comfort? Is it only mainly weight and speed?
Can't comment on the two specific models. Perhaps the
roadbikereview.com forums will be helpful.
Specialized Bicycle Allez Comp Double:
http://tinyurl.com/25h8jr
Specialized Bicycle Roubaix Comp Double
http://tinyurl.com/ye79f6
Be selective when reading these reviews; they are often erroneous. Eg.
the first review of the Allez Comp Double begins "Had been riding a
1976 Peugot PR-10 w/ Reynolds 531 aluminum frame..."
If you ride predominantly on flat terrain, (along the Mississippi
River?) don't expect minor weight differences between bikes to
translate into significant decreases in commute times or energy
expenditures. Try hooking up with a local group of riders; perhaps
they'll be able to lend you the model you want or similar for some test
rides.
>
> (P.S. it looks like all the mide range Trek road bikes only have 20
> spokes).
When/if you buy don't hestitate to haggle AND insist that undesirable
components be swapped out, of course, revising the price accordingly as
you go. If you're confronted with an inflexible or unaccommodating
retailer take your money elsewhere.
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 02:12:30
From: Skip
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
"Luke" <lucasiragusa@rogers.com > wrote in message
news:020920070951257875%lucasiragusa@rogers.com...
> Be selective when reading these reviews; they are often erroneous. Eg.
> the first review of the Allez Comp Double begins "Had been riding a
> 1976 Peugot PR-10 w/ Reynolds 531 aluminum frame..."
Since Luke says "Be selective when reading these reviews; they are often
erroneous" I may be repeating his message. If so, I am reinforcing his
thoughts.
I am old enough to have ridden in high school with Mike Jacoubowsky. He's
kept riding hard and I havenn't. He pursuaded me to get my first "really
good" bike (a Gitane Tour de France, at $199.50). I still ride and love
that bike.
> 1976 Peigot PR-10 w/ Reynolds 531
sounds like the PX-10 to me. The Peugot equivalent to my same-era Gitane.
The lesser Peugot (PR-8, PX-8 -- I can't remember but think that '8' was in
it) wasn't 531 -- or at least wasn't double-butted 531 as the PX-10 and the
Tour de France were.
> w/ Reynolds 531 aluminum frame
I KNOW that this is wrong. My 531 frame is decidely steel and not aluminum.
IIRC correctly, the Klein was one of the first popular aluminum frames, and
came to market much later than this 1976 vintage.
- Skip
(the longest continuous membership in the Western Wheelers bicycle
club, but I certainly don't ride as much as I should. Perhaps I'm
fat-dumb-and-lazy. I really adimire Mike J.)
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 02:44:40
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
> I am old enough to have ridden in high school with Mike Jacoubowsky. He's
> kept riding hard and I havenn't. He pursuaded me to get my first "really
> good" bike (a Gitane Tour de France, at $199.50). I still ride and love
> that bike.
Which color is yours? It's been quite a few years since I've seen it! I
owned two of them; my first was a too-large 25" (63cm?) green one that Nick
Lynch sold me. He did try initially to sell me one the right size, but I
didn't like the color. I bought a second one for use as a 'cross bike/spare
bike, but it seemed they'd gone downhill quite a bit in the couple of years
between them, as it didn't handle nearly as well and seemed to be quite a
bit more flexible. They'd also begun to sneak in "Durifort" tubing wherever
they could and still, in not-so-good conscious, call is "531."
>
>> 1976 Peigot PR-10 w/ Reynolds 531
> sounds like the PX-10 to me. The Peugot equivalent to my same-era Gitane.
> The lesser Peugot (PR-8, PX-8 -- I can't remember but think that '8' was
> in it) wasn't 531 -- or at least wasn't double-butted 531 as the PX-10 and
> the Tour de France were.
The lesser bikes were in the "U0- series. The U08 was in incredibly-popular
bike back in the day.
> - Skip
> (the longest continuous membership in the Western Wheelers bicycle
> club, but I certainly don't ride as much as I should. Perhaps I'm
> fat-dumb-and-lazy. I really adimire Mike J.)
Yet it's you with the family history of cycling. It's only recently that
I've made significant inroads in that area (with my son). And he still
resists; the appeal of paintball and video games is strong. Sigh. In any
event, as much as we love cycling, if there's anything to be truly admired
it would be in doing a good job raising our kids. Maybe 10 years from now
I'll be able to look back at that one and see how I did.
Meantime, we can think about those Western Wheelers meetings back in the
day, when we'd be causing trouble at the back of the room and old man
Peterson was getting upset with us. Those were the days.
Hey, did you ride the San Andreas No Fault Century back in whatever year it
was ('72?)?
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 21:04:35
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
In article <1188675271.076078.284730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com >, Jorg
Lueke <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> am thinking about upgrading at some point, though maybe not though the
> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> vibrations? I do notice some effects specially in my elbows from time
> to time.
>
I put about 750K per month commuting and running errands; here's my
perspective. Don't buy carbon -- or scandium, Ti or CroMo for that
matter -- anticipating that a greater or lesser degree of comfort
inheres in the frame material. As landotter noted that's more a matter
of fit and components.
But, yes a lighter bike can make for a more enjoyable commute - not
because it dampens road vibrations though. Among the bikes I regularly
bike to work on is a an old Ti Sumitomo (A Muzi's shop), the commute
morphs into a fast recreational ride with this bike - the nature of the
bike influences how I ride and the route I choose. It's fun. :-)
But care should be taken when opting for a lighter ride that durability
not be sacrificed: IMO rolling to work on 20 or 24 spoke wheels is
asking for headaches.
Another steed in the stable is an old Reynolds 531 roadie converted to
a fixie. This bike makes for an equally enjoyable commute, albeit
slower. The Medici is ideal for exploring neighbourhoods and new
routes; or a minimalist, elemental ride -- all under the guise of a
commute.
There's also the Nova.....
But you get the idea. Your commute is what you make it: a race, a
tourist trip, strictly a utilitarian activity, or a melange of all
three. Get the bike that best suits how you define the proposition.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 11:34:37
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:04:35 -0400, Luke wrote:
> I put about 750K per month commuting and running errands; here's my
> perspective. Don't buy carbon -- or scandium, Ti or CroMo for that
> matter -- anticipating that a greater or lesser degree of comfort
> inheres in the frame material. As landotter noted that's more a matter
> of fit and components.
When I bought a carbon bike, I noticed that the ride was considerably
smoother than on my alloy one, given the same tyre width & pressure -
it felt as though I was rolling on a thin carpet.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 22:27:09
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:34:37 +0930, Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au >
wrote:
>On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:04:35 -0400, Luke wrote:
>
>> I put about 750K per month commuting and running errands; here's my
>> perspective. Don't buy carbon -- or scandium, Ti or CroMo for that
>> matter -- anticipating that a greater or lesser degree of comfort
>> inheres in the frame material. As landotter noted that's more a matter
>> of fit and components.
>
>When I bought a carbon bike, I noticed that the ride was considerably
>smoother than on my alloy one, given the same tyre width & pressure -
>it felt as though I was rolling on a thin carpet.
I've heard the same said of Al over Steel, Ti over Al, CF over Ti,
and Steel over CF. Round and round it goes....
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 22:26:27
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
Luke wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:34:37 +0930, Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:04:35 -0400, Luke wrote:
>>
>>> I put about 750K per month commuting and running errands; here's my
>>> perspective. Don't buy carbon -- or scandium, Ti or CroMo for that
>>> matter -- anticipating that a greater or lesser degree of comfort
>>> inheres in the frame material. As landotter noted that's more a matter
>>> of fit and components.
>> When I bought a carbon bike, I noticed that the ride was considerably
>> smoother than on my alloy one, given the same tyre width & pressure -
>> it felt as though I was rolling on a thin carpet.
>
> I've heard the same said of Al over Steel, Ti over Al, CF over Ti,
> and Steel over CF. Round and round it goes....
My theory is that people often upgrade from an entry level Al frame to a
more expensive ( >$2000) CFRP frame. They then mistakenly attribute the
improvement only to the material, neglecting the increase in overall
quality of the entire bike's construction.
\\paul
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 17:07:44
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 1, 11:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
> sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of miles
> per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms of
> riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike might
> be different things. People buy cars with far more power than they need for
> the type of driving they normally do, but might enjoy the sporty handling
> characteristics... it might simply be more "fun" to drive. Same thing is
> true for bikes. You don't *need* to have a really nice (expensive) bike. You
> could get by with something much less. But that's a value judgement.
>
> People come into the shop all the time and ask how much money they have to
> spend for a nice bike. I tell them that what's worth paying for isn't
> something for *me* to determine, it's for them. I set them up on perhaps
> three different bikes (good, better, & really really really good) and they
> generally can figure it out for themselves.
>
>
>
> > If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
>
> Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's usually
> against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
> further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
> contest with entry fees & officials.
>
These are good points. The problem with trying out bikes is that it
takes a while to know what one likes and dislikes so that first
purchase might be decent but not perfect. What I might be looking for
is a bike I can try to ride at an average of 20 mph to get to work and
back in an hour flat. I might keep the pilot for days when need to
carry 20 pounds of stuff with me but I think it would be nice to have
a speedier bike as well. But going that route I'd also like something
that can withstand the vibrations of poorly paved urban streets. Like
I said something like a Virata or Roubaix or the Trek equivalent.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 05:18:27
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
>> > If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
>>
>> Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's
>> usually
>> against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
>> further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
>> contest with entry fees & officials.
>>
> These are good points. The problem with trying out bikes is that it
> takes a while to know what one likes and dislikes so that first
> purchase might be decent but not perfect. What I might be looking for
> is a bike I can try to ride at an average of 20 mph to get to work and
> back in an hour flat. I might keep the pilot for days when need to
> carry 20 pounds of stuff with me but I think it would be nice to have
> a speedier bike as well. But going that route I'd also like something
> that can withstand the vibrations of poorly paved urban streets. Like
> I said something like a Virata or Roubaix or the Trek equivalent.
Make sure you get a chance to ride the relevant bikes on some hills, if
available. And you might find this article useful on our website-
www.ChainReaction.com/roadbiketestrides.htm. It's one of the few on our
website that is completely brand & material neutral, meaning that it should
help you evaluate just about any bike... as well as the shop setting it up.
And above all, have fun and keep riding. I'm jealous of the miles you're
getting in by commuting alone!
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 00:01:29
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 1, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > On Sep 1, 2:34 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> >> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> >> am thinking about upgrading at some point,
>
> > Carbon is not an upgrade for a commuter, it's a liability. Forks are a
> > good place for plastic, tho.
>
> OK, I'll bite. Why is that? What is it about carbon fiber that makes it a
> "liability" for a frame, but not a fork?
How much is a fork? How much is a frame? Duh. If you fall on some oily
intersection and hose your fork, it's $150 for a basic replacement, if
you crack your frame, it's considerably more.
>If you're concerned about
> durability, why would you use it for a fork where, if it were to fail, the
> consequences would be far worse than if something were to happen to a frame?
> There are few things more important to the cyclist than the fork, handlebar
> & stem, as far as safety is concerned.
Duh. This is about ultimately a liability to the wallet.
>A failure there can be seriously bad
> news. Frame failures on the other hand, regardless of material, are rarely
> catastrophic (such that when it does happen, a very big deal is deservedly
> made of it).
Ugh.
>
> >>though maybe not though the
> >> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> >> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> >> vibrations?
>
> > Spend $50 on some 25j-28mm tires, fattest you can squeeze in and
> > you'll notice more damping. Get some fresh bar tape. $75 worth of
> > tires and foam, and you'll be more comfy. Still not enough? Get your
> > bars up higher with a $20 stem raiser. We're still under a $100, and
> > these things will affect your comfort far more than getting a frame
> > you have to worry about scratching.
>
> Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
> sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of miles
> per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms of
> riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike might
> be different things.
Puhlease. The efficiency between a couple pounds and a 23mm and 25mm
tire are negligible. You're off the sales floor, quit the hype. I ride
6-800 miles per month on 30mm tires, and I'm no slower than when I
rode 23s. Do you understand what the word "commuting" means? It means
reliability and a modicum of comfort.
>People buy cars with far more power than they need for
> the type of driving they normally do, but might enjoy the sporty handling
> characteristics... it might simply be more "fun" to drive. Same thing is
> true for bikes. You don't *need* to have a really nice (expensive) bike. You
> could get by with something much less. But that's a value judgement.
Sounds like the OP wants comfort. There is no complaint about his
current bike's handling or performance. Again, you're off the sales
floor, stop with the hype. I understand sporty handling--just sold a
bike with 70s type criterium handling, and ride a bike with bog
standard road bike geometry--they mostly handle similarly as angles
have gotten to be pretty standardized.
>
> People come into the shop all the time and ask how much money they have to
> spend for a nice bike. I tell them that what's worth paying for isn't
> something for *me* to determine, it's for them. I set them up on perhaps
> three different bikes (good, better, & really really really good) and they
> generally can figure it out for themselves.
>
>
>
> > If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
>
> Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's usually
> against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
> further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
> contest with entry fees & officials.
>
Yak yak yak yak yak. You're off the sales floor, chill.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 00:49:20
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
>> Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
>> sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of
>> miles
>> per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms
>> of
>> riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike
>> might
>> be different things.
>
> Puhlease. The efficiency between a couple pounds and a 23mm and 25mm
> tire are negligible. You're off the sales floor, quit the hype. I ride
> 6-800 miles per month on 30mm tires, and I'm no slower than when I
> rode 23s. Do you understand what the word "commuting" means? It means
> reliability and a modicum of comfort.
I'm NEVER off the sales floor. The sales floor is the place to be, because I
get to match people up with bikes suitable for their own dreams. You're more
interested in people following *your* dreams & ideas.
For what it's worth, I love 25mm tires. And I think the Pilot series of
bikes I sell are great because they can fit wider tires yet (up to 32mm).
Regarding your incredible speed on 30mm tires, if this is on halfway-decent
roads, then dang, the reason Discovery folded up was because they hadn't
discovered you. You rock, man. If you can ride just as fast on 30mm tires as
you can on 23s, I can only conclude that you're approaching aerodynamic
limits that the rest of us can only dream of.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"landotter" <landotter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1188691289.754008.70150@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 1, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>> > On Sep 1, 2:34 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
>> >> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
>> >> am thinking about upgrading at some point,
>>
>> > Carbon is not an upgrade for a commuter, it's a liability. Forks are a
>> > good place for plastic, tho.
>>
>> OK, I'll bite. Why is that? What is it about carbon fiber that makes it a
>> "liability" for a frame, but not a fork?
>
>
> How much is a fork? How much is a frame? Duh. If you fall on some oily
> intersection and hose your fork, it's $150 for a basic replacement, if
> you crack your frame, it's considerably more.
>
>
>
>>If you're concerned about
>> durability, why would you use it for a fork where, if it were to fail,
>> the
>> consequences would be far worse than if something were to happen to a
>> frame?
>> There are few things more important to the cyclist than the fork,
>> handlebar
>> & stem, as far as safety is concerned.
>
> Duh. This is about ultimately a liability to the wallet.
>
>
>>A failure there can be seriously bad
>> news. Frame failures on the other hand, regardless of material, are
>> rarely
>> catastrophic (such that when it does happen, a very big deal is
>> deservedly
>> made of it).
>
>
> Ugh.
>
>>
>> >>though maybe not though the
>> >> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
>> >> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
>> >> vibrations?
>>
>> > Spend $50 on some 25j-28mm tires, fattest you can squeeze in and
>> > you'll notice more damping. Get some fresh bar tape. $75 worth of
>> > tires and foam, and you'll be more comfy. Still not enough? Get your
>> > bars up higher with a $20 stem raiser. We're still under a $100, and
>> > these things will affect your comfort far more than getting a frame
>> > you have to worry about scratching.
>>
>> Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
>> sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of
>> miles
>> per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms
>> of
>> riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike
>> might
>> be different things.
>
>
> Puhlease. The efficiency between a couple pounds and a 23mm and 25mm
> tire are negligible. You're off the sales floor, quit the hype. I ride
> 6-800 miles per month on 30mm tires, and I'm no slower than when I
> rode 23s. Do you understand what the word "commuting" means? It means
> reliability and a modicum of comfort.
>
>>People buy cars with far more power than they need for
>> the type of driving they normally do, but might enjoy the sporty handling
>> characteristics... it might simply be more "fun" to drive. Same thing is
>> true for bikes. You don't *need* to have a really nice (expensive) bike.
>> You
>> could get by with something much less. But that's a value judgement.
>
> Sounds like the OP wants comfort. There is no complaint about his
> current bike's handling or performance. Again, you're off the sales
> floor, stop with the hype. I understand sporty handling--just sold a
> bike with 70s type criterium handling, and ride a bike with bog
> standard road bike geometry--they mostly handle similarly as angles
> have gotten to be pretty standardized.
>
>>
>> People come into the shop all the time and ask how much money they have
>> to
>> spend for a nice bike. I tell them that what's worth paying for isn't
>> something for *me* to determine, it's for them. I set them up on perhaps
>> three different bikes (good, better, & really really really good) and
>> they
>> generally can figure it out for themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> > If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
>>
>> Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's
>> usually
>> against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
>> further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
>> contest with entry fees & officials.
>>
>
> Yak yak yak yak yak. You're off the sales floor, chill.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Sep 2007 16:12:11
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:49:20 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
>I'm NEVER off the sales floor. The sales floor is the place to be, because I
>get to match people up with bikes suitable for their own dreams. You're more
>interested in people following *your* dreams & ideas.
MAN, I wish you were my bike dealer.
I went in and bought a Madone (on sale) today.
Nice bike. The owner made a point that 'bikes on sale do not get
fitted, unless you agree to pay full retail price on the bike'.
OK, that's his right, but why in the WORLD would you send a fellow
biker out into the street without doing a fit. I even had to ask if
he'd measure my old bike settings and duplicate them on the new bike
and he declined.
Can't complain, b/c I got nearly $1K off the retail price, I guess,
but rather than feeling happy with the bike, I admit I'm feeling a
little low due to that lack of comraderie or concern. Yeah, yeah,
boo-hoo. ;-)
(I believe I bought both my other bikes from this shop - so it's not
like I'm just a walk in. He's the only game in town. at least for
Trek.)
If you weren't on the other side of the country, I'd make a day-long
trek just to be able to work with someone like you who cares.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Sep 2007 23:12:11
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
> I went in and bought a Madone (on sale) today.
>
> Nice bike. The owner made a point that 'bikes on sale do not get
> fitted, unless you agree to pay full retail price on the bike'.
Different shops have different business models. I can't relate to what that
particular shop does, but they probably can't relate to my stubborn
consistency to never, ever negotiate pricing on bikes. Everybody gets the
same pricing, no matter how much they want to haggle. If we're not
competitive, pricing changes for everyone. That can infuriate some customers
just as much as your shop annoyed you by not providing something you thought
ought to have been a basic service with the bike.
Personally, and business is personal to me, I don't see the point to having
someone out there on a bike that doesn't fit right. If I had something we
were blowing out at such a low price that we were losing money on it, I'd
still want to do the full fitting, but it's possible there might be changes
recommended that on a regularly-priced bike would be at no or minimal cost,
but on that particular bike they might not get credit for the parts coming
off. That would be an exceptional, and rare case, and I'd want to make sure
the buyer knew that before getting too far into the process.
> Can't complain, b/c I got nearly $1K off the retail price, I guess,
> but rather than feeling happy with the bike, I admit I'm feeling a
> little low due to that lack of comraderie or concern. Yeah, yeah,
> boo-hoo. ;-)
Believe it or not, there are times when someone buys a bike so reluctantly
that we suggest they not buy it at all. We had a situation like that a few
weeks ago, interestingly, on a Madone 5.2SL. The customer was livid about
the fact that we required a deposit to build up the bike, and then further
that we were going to charge $40 to switch the cassette from a 12-25 to a
12-27 (we have very large boxes full of 12-25 cassettes that are going
nowhere; we sell them for $39.99, half the price of a 12-27, and still can't
get rid of them... thus the reason for the $40 charge to switch). The
salesperson told me about the situation, and I told the salesperson that we
shouldn't sell the customer the bike, if he wasn't going to be happy. Not a
problem. So I'm too busy to keep an eye on things and, against my wishes,
the salesperson sell him the bike. The customer comes back in with the bike
two days later to return the bike (thankfully un-used), saying that he
couldn't live with making a purchase like that where we wouldn't back down
on the $40 fee. Sigh.
That guy was probably more annoyed at us than you were at the shop refusing
to do the fitting, even though, to *my* narrow way of thinking, there was
complete justification for what we were doing. But, again, to *my* narrow
way of thinking, we have a way of doing business for all of our customers,
and if we cannot afford to eat all those cassettes for our regular
clientele, who generally trust us and keep coming back for more, why should
we betray their trust by bending over backward for someone who doesn't in
any way appreciate all the hard work we do, before, during and after the
sale, to make sure everything about the bike is right (even though some of
those things might cost a few $$$)?
This is the sort of thing I lose sleep over sometimes. But being consistent
is, for me, the best policy. And I'm an IBD (Independent Bicycle Dealer) not
because I'm smarter than the next person, but because of what that "I"
stands for. Obviously, the Independent business person is not always the
best & the brightest! But selling bicycles is a great way to make a living.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Biker52" <B52@ntelos.net > wrote in message
news:359be317pa9uvhrr2uardf3dbfe6h4odgj@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:49:20 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm NEVER off the sales floor. The sales floor is the place to be, because
>>I
>>get to match people up with bikes suitable for their own dreams. You're
>>more
>>interested in people following *your* dreams & ideas.
>
> MAN, I wish you were my bike dealer.
>
> I went in and bought a Madone (on sale) today.
>
> Nice bike. The owner made a point that 'bikes on sale do not get
> fitted, unless you agree to pay full retail price on the bike'.
>
> OK, that's his right, but why in the WORLD would you send a fellow
> biker out into the street without doing a fit. I even had to ask if
> he'd measure my old bike settings and duplicate them on the new bike
> and he declined.
>
> Can't complain, b/c I got nearly $1K off the retail price, I guess,
> but rather than feeling happy with the bike, I admit I'm feeling a
> little low due to that lack of comraderie or concern. Yeah, yeah,
> boo-hoo. ;-)
>
> (I believe I bought both my other bikes from this shop - so it's not
> like I'm just a walk in. He's the only game in town. at least for
> Trek.)
>
> If you weren't on the other side of the country, I'd make a day-long
> trek just to be able to work with someone like you who cares.
>
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 08:50:03
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:12:11 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Different shops have different business models. I can't relate to what that
> particular shop does, but they probably can't relate to my stubborn
> consistency to never, ever negotiate pricing on bikes. Everybody gets the
> same pricing, no matter how much they want to haggle.
Is that pricing the figure on the tag, or something at a certain percentage
less? I'm curious, because IME reasonably expensive bikes seem to have
an extra margin of about 20% in the sticker price, which comes off as
soon as you mention deals you've been offered elsewhere :-)
Most shops here also give you 15% off on anything as soon as you
say you belong to almost any bike-related org; I suppose they regard it
as a bonus when people pay that extra margin without complaint.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Sep 2007 20:55:48
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
>> Different shops have different business models. I can't relate to what
>> that
>> particular shop does, but they probably can't relate to my stubborn
>> consistency to never, ever negotiate pricing on bikes. Everybody gets the
>> same pricing, no matter how much they want to haggle.
>
> Is that pricing the figure on the tag, or something at a certain
> percentage
> less? I'm curious, because IME reasonably expensive bikes seem to have
> an extra margin of about 20% in the sticker price, which comes off as
> soon as you mention deals you've been offered elsewhere :-)
>
There are many shops that sell at the advertised retail price, and then tack
on something for shipping & assembly. At that point, they're *way* above
what I would be charging, and they can hack off quite a bit before they're
down to my level. Their business model depends upon charging however many
people they can the full "sticker" price and then selling the hagglers the
bike for less. In theory, the bike shop "wins" because they sold a bunch of
bikes at a higher margin, and even the "haggled" bikes end up with a pretty
decent margin. The "haggler" wins because he/she got to "haggle." The only
person who loses is the customer who didn't raise a fuss, just walked in and
bought the bike for a lot more money than they might have had to pay, had
they known or been inclined to haggle.
To *me*, and perhaps only to me, that doesn't see fair, or even ethical.
And, in this case, it's all about *me.* Because my policies are based upon
my own experiences, specifically how much I dislike the process of buying a
car, or anything else where the price is determined not by the value of
what's offered, but by skills of negotiation. For what it's worth, I can
"negotiate" very well. But it takes years off my life. I can't stand the
process. It, to *me*, is dehumanizing. I prefer the idea that something has
a value, that perhaps more is added by the person I'm buying it from, and
that the relationship is profitable for both myself and the seller. Or vice
versa.
> Most shops here also give you 15% off on anything as soon as you
> say you belong to almost any bike-related org; I suppose they regard it
> as a bonus when people pay that extra margin without complaint.
We're not most shops. I don't see why a customer who belongs to XYZ club
should get a better deal than the person who doesn't. Again, this is me
being reactionary to things I've experienced myself. I don't like it when
somebody in line in front of me has some special card or club he/she belongs
to such that they get better treatment on something than the long-time
non-complaining customer who's kept the doors open through thick & thin. So
it's my job to make sure *that* customer gets the best-deal possible,
because they deserve it.
And here's the absolute truth. If you're letting some people have product
for less money, you're charging other people MORE money than you would
otherwise have to, in order to keep the doors open. It's very difficult to
stay in retail; margins aren't great, and expenses are increasing daily
(worker's comp & health insurance are likely to kill a good number of local
retailers, not just bike shops, in the near future). The money has to come
from somewhere.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Michael Warner" <mvw@westnet.com.au > wrote in message
news:j5s95apmxwih$.u13xw17y38sk.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:12:11 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Different shops have different business models. I can't relate to what
>> that
>> particular shop does, but they probably can't relate to my stubborn
>> consistency to never, ever negotiate pricing on bikes. Everybody gets the
>> same pricing, no matter how much they want to haggle.
>
> Is that pricing the figure on the tag, or something at a certain
> percentage
> less? I'm curious, because IME reasonably expensive bikes seem to have
> an extra margin of about 20% in the sticker price, which comes off as
> soon as you mention deals you've been offered elsewhere :-)
>
> Most shops here also give you 15% off on anything as soon as you
> say you belong to almost any bike-related org; I suppose they regard it
> as a bonus when people pay that extra margin without complaint.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 13:28:49
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:55:48 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>There are many shops that sell at the advertised retail price, and then tack
>on something for shipping & assembly. At that point, they're *way* above
>what I would be charging, and they can hack off quite a bit before they're
>down to my level.
OK, looking at the price of the Mad 5.0 I got on sale, the implication
is that they took off >$900 for an '07. How is that possible?
Should I be looking it over for something wrong? BTW, it's full
Ultegra, nothing is 105.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 13:09:09
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
>>There are many shops that sell at the advertised retail price, and then
>>tack
>>on something for shipping & assembly. At that point, they're *way* above
>>what I would be charging, and they can hack off quite a bit before they're
>>down to my level.
>
> OK, looking at the price of the Mad 5.0 I got on sale, the implication
> is that they took off >$900 for an '07. How is that possible?
>
> Should I be looking it over for something wrong? BTW, it's full
> Ultegra, nothing is 105.
When the '08 Madones came out, the value of just about every other
mid-to-high-priced road bike tanked. The new Madone 5.1 weighs less and has
all manner of other benefits, but was going to sell for just $200 more than
the Madone 5.0. No way was anyone going to buy a 5.0 then; they'd all wait
for the '08 5.1. Thus Trek had to drop the price on those bikes, or they'd
never sell. If a dealer had those bikes in stock before the price came down,
they lost a lot of $$$. Hate it when that happens. That could have been the
case with your dealer. But if a dealer's inventory was relatively clean,
they had the opportunity to buy the bikes at a lower price (and sell them
for a lower price, and still have a profitable sale).
Your dealer *might* have bought a bunch at the higher price and felt like he
was eating it big-time with the price drop. And if so, his mood might not
have been the best. I'm not making excuses... I'm just making excuses. Know
what I mean? So maybe he did OK on the sale, and maybe he didn't. Either
way, it's unfortunate when things are put in such a way that the customer
can't fathom what he or she did "wrong." If a bike's on sale, on the floor,
you shouldn't make the customer feel like they did something wrong by buying
it. And in this case, you say he wouldn't even let you pay a fair price for
the fitting. That's weird. But I really shouldn't be second-guessing someone
else's business. I can explain what we do, and why, and recognize there are
a lot of very good reasons that I am not King.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
"Biker52" <B52@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:la8ge3l3qhuifg99dg5khfou1sn7nt0q89@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:55:48 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>There are many shops that sell at the advertised retail price, and then
>>tack
>>on something for shipping & assembly. At that point, they're *way* above
>>what I would be charging, and they can hack off quite a bit before they're
>>down to my level.
>
> OK, looking at the price of the Mad 5.0 I got on sale, the implication
> is that they took off >$900 for an '07. How is that possible?
>
> Should I be looking it over for something wrong? BTW, it's full
> Ultegra, nothing is 105.
>
>
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 19:59:55
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:55:48 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> There are many shops that sell at the advertised retail price, and then tack
> on something for shipping & assembly. At that point, they're *way* above
> what I would be charging, and they can hack off quite a bit before they're
> down to my level. Their business model depends upon charging however many
> people they can the full "sticker" price and then selling the hagglers the
> bike for less. In theory, the bike shop "wins" because they sold a bunch of
> bikes at a higher margin, and even the "haggled" bikes end up with a pretty
> decent margin. The "haggler" wins because he/she got to "haggle." The only
> person who loses is the customer who didn't raise a fuss, just walked in and
> bought the bike for a lot more money than they might have had to pay, had
> they known or been inclined to haggle.
> To *me*, and perhaps only to me, that doesn't see fair, or even ethical.
That's an admirable attitude, but I have a hard time seeing it this way
where expensive bikes are concerned. After all, they're being
bought for recreation from disposable income, and if some people are happy
to pay an inflated price for them because they haven't done any research
into what they ought to be paying - which is very easy in the Internet
era - the shop shouldn't feel bad about accepting it. Bear in mind that
some people /like/ paying more for luxury items, because it demonstrates
their wealth; you can always offer them some extra service or customization
if you feel guilty :-)
As far as haggling is concerned, I don't spend hours trying to screw every
last dollar out of shops. I decide what I think a fair price is before I
ask about an item; they either agree or give me a higher figure, and in the
latter case I go back and accept it if it turns out to be my best option.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 13:50:34
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
Michael Warner wrote:
> As far as haggling is concerned, I don't spend hours trying to screw every
> last dollar out of shops. I decide what I think a fair price is before I
> ask about an item; they either agree or give me a higher figure, and in the
> latter case I go back and accept it if it turns out to be my best option.
I don't try to haggle. I try to figure out what the lowest price that I
can realistically get is (Internet, shopping around), then add in the
premium over that I'm willing to pay for convenience, support, good
will, etc. for a particular seller. That gives me a number. If the
seller (LBS) is way over that, then I'll move on. If asked, I may
explain my thinking, there may be differences in product or other issues
I hadn't considered. Sometimes a seller will make up the difference on
other stuff I need that has higher margins, that's fine, too.
To the original OP: If I got a grand knocked off a bike I'd pony up for
the fitting, or at least not get tweaked because I had to.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2007 14:52:20
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:50:34 -0400, Peter Cole
<peter_cole@comcast.net > wrote:
>Michael Warner wrote:
>
>> As far as haggling is concerned, I don't spend hours trying to screw every
>> last dollar out of shops. I decide what I think a fair price is before I
>> ask about an item; they either agree or give me a higher figure, and in the
>> latter case I go back and accept it if it turns out to be my best option.
>
>I don't try to haggle. I try to figure out what the lowest price that I
>can realistically get is (Internet, shopping around), then add in the
>premium over that I'm willing to pay for convenience, support, good
>will, etc. for a particular seller. That gives me a number. If the
>seller (LBS) is way over that, then I'll move on. If asked, I may
>explain my thinking, there may be differences in product or other issues
>I hadn't considered. Sometimes a seller will make up the difference on
>other stuff I need that has higher margins, that's fine, too.
>
>To the original OP: If I got a grand knocked off a bike I'd pony up for
>the fitting, or at least not get tweaked because I had to.
Can you not read?
I was not given the option to pay for a fitting. I was told 'pay full
price and you get a fitting'. 900 for a fitting hardly seems fair.
They wouldn't discuss price beyond that, wouldn't put air in the
tires, wouldn't re-adjust the seat. I went home with the seat down
1.5", and other minor nasty things done to the bike. I didn't make a
scene at all, just quietly asked and then left. One of my friends was
working there part time (he's a MTB racer on their team) and he helped
me put the bike in the car. If not for him I'd have had nothing.
I found a nice Trek dealer an hours' drive and he's going to fit it
for $75.
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:31:38
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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Biker52 wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:50:34 -0400, Peter Cole
> <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:
>> To the original OP: If I got a grand knocked off a bike I'd pony up for
>> the fitting, or at least not get tweaked because I had to.
>
> Can you not read?
>
> I was not given the option to pay for a fitting. I was told 'pay full
> price and you get a fitting'. 900 for a fitting hardly seems fair.
>
> They wouldn't discuss price beyond that, wouldn't put air in the
> tires, wouldn't re-adjust the seat. I went home with the seat down
> 1.5", and other minor nasty things done to the bike. I didn't make a
> scene at all, just quietly asked and then left. One of my friends was
> working there part time (he's a MTB racer on their team) and he helped
> me put the bike in the car. If not for him I'd have had nothing.
>
> I found a nice Trek dealer an hours' drive and he's going to fit it
> for $75.
I guess you think $75 is reasonable for a fitting. If I really wanted or
needed a fitting, I would have made a reasonable offer. For $100 you
might have both gone away happy. If not, what's the beef? You got a
bargain and can have the bike fitted anywhere with the money you saved.
It's like self/full service gas prices.
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 11:36:51
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:12:11 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>> I went in and bought a Madone (on sale) today.
>>
>> Nice bike. The owner made a point that 'bikes on sale do not get
>> fitted, unless you agree to pay full retail price on the bike'.
>
>Different shops have different business models. I can't relate to what that
>particular shop does, but they probably can't relate to my stubborn
>consistency to never, ever negotiate pricing on bikes. Everybody gets the
>same pricing, no matter how much they want to haggle.
Hah, even IBDs need to rant sometimes, though I guess you did answer
my comment. :)
Odd Example:
When I was there, I saw another customer who was buying a much cheaper
bike (but evidently at full price), a ~$850 aluminum road bike.
This customer got a full fitting, on the trainer, with the angle
calipers and everything and they were very nice to him, effusive,
even. He was paying regular price. I guess their claim was based on
the idea that, due to it being on sale, they were losing money with
every second they spent with me. (Ain't that the piss. If you're gonna
act like that, raise the price a little) :(
Anyway, I've found another Trek shop that's kinda new (apparently)
about one hour away. So I called them and they said they'd be GLAD to
fit me for FREE, and were excited that I bought a top of the line
Trek. So it looks like I'll get my 'wow' experience after all.
Thanks for the kind reply, Mike.
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 13:45:29
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
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Biker52 <B52@ntelos.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:49:20 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm NEVER off the sales floor. The sales floor is the place to be, because I
>>get to match people up with bikes suitable for their own dreams. You're more
>>interested in people following *your* dreams & ideas.
>
> MAN, I wish you were my bike dealer.
>
> I went in and bought a Madone (on sale) today.
>
> Nice bike. The owner made a point that 'bikes on sale do not get
> fitted, unless you agree to pay full retail price on the bike'.
Wow. That's short sighted. I can see that policy on a bike less than
$200. But on something more than a $1000? Dumb.
> OK, that's his right, but why in the WORLD would you send a fellow
> biker out into the street without doing a fit. I even had to ask if
> he'd measure my old bike settings and duplicate them on the new bike
> and he declined.
Not to mention the opportunity for talking to him and selling him on
things he might (legitimately) need? It's pretty much the perfect sales
situation. You have the guy already buying a big ticket item. He's
going to be spending thirty minutes with you 'perfecting' his bike.
Maybe he doesn't buy anything else *today*, but I bet if you treat him
decently, he'll probably be back.
> Can't complain, b/c I got nearly $1K off the retail price, I guess,
> but rather than feeling happy with the bike, I admit I'm feeling a
> little low due to that lack of comraderie or concern. Yeah, yeah,
> boo-hoo. ;-)
>
> (I believe I bought both my other bikes from this shop - so it's not
> like I'm just a walk in. He's the only game in town. at least for
> Trek.)
Yup, and I bet you're tempted (or would be) to buy everything online you
can.
> If you weren't on the other side of the country, I'd make a day-long
> trek just to be able to work with someone like you who cares.
I'm thankfully near a lot of good bike shops. The bad ones stay in
business too though, probably because most peoples needs just aren't
that hard to meet. Or possibly they don't know that it could be better.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Some drink at the fountain of knowledge...
others just gargle."
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 16:57:25
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 1, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > On Sep 1, 2:34 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> >> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> >> am thinking about upgrading at some point,
>
> > Carbon is not an upgrade for a commuter, it's a liability. Forks are a
> > good place for plastic, tho.
>
> OK, I'll bite. Why is that? What is it about carbon fiber that makes it a
> "liability" for a frame, but not a fork? If you're concerned about
> durability, why would you use it for a fork where, if it were to fail, the
> consequences would be far worse than if something were to happen to a frame?
> There are few things more important to the cyclist than the fork, handlebar
> & stem, as far as safety is concerned. A failure there can be seriously bad
> news. Frame failures on the other hand, regardless of material, are rarely
> catastrophic (such that when it does happen, a very big deal is deservedly
> made of it).
>
> >>though maybe not though the
> >> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> >> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> >> vibrations?
>
> > Spend $50 on some 25j-28mm tires, fattest you can squeeze in and
> > you'll notice more damping. Get some fresh bar tape. $75 worth of
> > tires and foam, and you'll be more comfy. Still not enough? Get your
> > bars up higher with a $20 stem raiser. We're still under a $100, and
> > these things will affect your comfort far more than getting a frame
> > you have to worry about scratching.
>
> Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
> sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of miles
> per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms of
> riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike might
> be different things. People buy cars with far more power than they need for
> the type of driving they normally do, but might enjoy the sporty handling
> characteristics... it might simply be more "fun" to drive. Same thing is
> true for bikes. You don't *need* to have a really nice (expensive) bike. You
> could get by with something much less. But that's a value judgement.
>
> People come into the shop all the time and ask how much money they have to
> spend for a nice bike. I tell them that what's worth paying for isn't
> something for *me* to determine, it's for them. I set them up on perhaps
> three different bikes (good, better, & really really really good) and they
> generally can figure it out for themselves.
>
>
>
> > If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
>
> Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's usually
> against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
> further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
> contest with entry fees & officials.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Wider tires do not necessarily sacrifice efficiency. Bicycle Quarterly
did a test of rolling resistance on tires several issues ago and
actually found some wider tires that rolled easier than the 23c ones.
They also found that very high pressure makes very little difference
in rolling efficiency. I wish more frames had the clearance and
chainstay length for wider tires (28c and up).
Smokey
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 20:20:15
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
On Sep 1, 2:34 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
> am thinking about upgrading at some point,
Carbon is not an upgrade for a commuter, it's a liability. Forks are a
good place for plastic, tho.
>though maybe not though the
> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
> vibrations?
Spend $50 on some 25j-28mm tires, fattest you can squeeze in and
you'll notice more damping. Get some fresh bar tape. $75 worth of
tires and foam, and you'll be more comfy. Still not enough? Get your
bars up higher with a $20 stem raiser. We're still under a $100, and
these things will affect your comfort far more than getting a frame
you have to worry about scratching.
If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 15:09:44
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Benefits of Carbon Frames
|
> On Sep 1, 2:34 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Right now I have an alumunum frame, carbon fork and seat post (Trek
>> Pilot 1.2). I ride mostly commuting 500-600 miles per month. Now I
>> am thinking about upgrading at some point,
>
> Carbon is not an upgrade for a commuter, it's a liability. Forks are a
> good place for plastic, tho.
OK, I'll bite. Why is that? What is it about carbon fiber that makes it a
"liability" for a frame, but not a fork? If you're concerned about
durability, why would you use it for a fork where, if it were to fail, the
consequences would be far worse than if something were to happen to a frame?
There are few things more important to the cyclist than the fork, handlebar
& stem, as far as safety is concerned. A failure there can be seriously bad
news. Frame failures on the other hand, regardless of material, are rarely
catastrophic (such that when it does happen, a very big deal is deservedly
made of it).
>>though maybe not though the
>> winter. One thing the better models have (Roubaix or a Virata) is the
>> carbon frame. Besides being lighter does this help with road
>> vibrations?
>
> Spend $50 on some 25j-28mm tires, fattest you can squeeze in and
> you'll notice more damping. Get some fresh bar tape. $75 worth of
> tires and foam, and you'll be more comfy. Still not enough? Get your
> bars up higher with a $20 stem raiser. We're still under a $100, and
> these things will affect your comfort far more than getting a frame
> you have to worry about scratching.
Agreed that those changes will make a bike more "comfortable" but at some
sacrifice in efficiency. The OP is putting in a significant number of miles
per month, and may be looking to take things to the next level (in terms of
riding faster & longer). What you & the OP are looking for in a bike might
be different things. People buy cars with far more power than they need for
the type of driving they normally do, but might enjoy the sporty handling
characteristics... it might simply be more "fun" to drive. Same thing is
true for bikes. You don't *need* to have a really nice (expensive) bike. You
could get by with something much less. But that's a value judgement.
People come into the shop all the time and ask how much money they have to
spend for a nice bike. I tell them that what's worth paying for isn't
something for *me* to determine, it's for them. I set them up on perhaps
three different bikes (good, better, & really really really good) and they
generally can figure it out for themselves.
>
> If you were racing, a pound *might* matter. But ya ain't.
Are you sure the OP's not "racing?" A lot of people race. But it's usually
against themselves, trying to better their last time, trying to get a bit
further. "Racing" can be a state of mind; it isn't limited toa formal
contest with entry fees & officials.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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