Braking while turning?

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Date: 10 Aug 2006 19:55:18
From: Sir Ridesalot
Subject: Braking while turning?

Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
road in front of you.

You are not able to go around the obstruction.

Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
bicycle slide out from under you?

There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

Thanks for all relevant advice.

Peter

Date: 30 Aug 2006 18:19:39
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:

> More BS, BS
>
> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>
> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>
> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
> You're an inspiration to us all!
>
> LOL

The fastest I've ever rolled on a bike was on my trail
bike. 60 mph from the top of Rist Canyon to Stove Prairie,
west of Fort Collins, CO. Three of us together, a bit of
drafting going on.

I've topped 50 several times on my road bike but never
got close to 60. Come to think of it I descended Rist Canyon
to S.P. on my road bike once or twice and didn't approach 60.

Just an observation. Now back to our regularly scheduled
Bill-bashing.

Robert

Date: 01 Sep 2006 16:48:20
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

r15757@aol.com wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>> More BS, BS
>>
>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
>> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>>
>> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
>> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>
>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
>> You're an inspiration to us all!
>>
>> LOL
>
> The fastest I've ever rolled on a bike was on my trail
> bike. 60 mph from the top of Rist Canyon to Stove Prairie,
> west of Fort Collins, CO. Three of us together, a bit of
> drafting going on.
>
> I've topped 50 several times on my road bike but never
> got close to 60. Come to think of it I descended Rist Canyon
> to S.P. on my road bike once or twice and didn't approach 60.
>
> Just an observation. Now back to our regularly scheduled
> Bill-bashing.
>
> Robert
>
There is only one section that I ride anywhere near routinely that I can
hit 50 on but it does have some corners that I probably should not try
to go that fast on. The boat ramp road to Englebright reservoir is over
20% and you could probably hit over 65 on that one but there are too
many twists and turns to even think about it, and the bottom goes
straight into the water. It is a little over a quarter mile and so steep
that I have to walk the bike back up. I can't ride it even with a super
granny 20/28 since even standing as far over the bars as possible one
good hard pedal will flip me over. I did see both a Semi tractor unit
and one of those huge pickups with 4 wheels in the back so they are
probably there to haul up the heavier boats.
Like I said "I could hit 60+, then a tree", so I am not trying.
I did notice going down my rims were scorching hot at the bottom.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 18:09:08
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

bdbafh@gmail.com wrote:

> I've heard from a riding buddy that on descents during Ride the Rockies
> that he has reached speeds as high as 66 mph. He is crazy enough to do
> it.
>
> Check the map book here for this year's course:
> http://ridetherockies.com/MapBook06.pdf
>
> Poncha Pass on day 5 looks pretty steep.

Actually, Poncha is not steep whatsoever. It is straight, but
I doubt nearly steep enough to allow for 50 mph. Maybe with
a huge tailwind and drafting off a semi.

What a great, weird course though. I love the backroad route
from Durango to Pagosa Springs. I don't think there are any
ultra high speed grades in there but I could be wrong. La Magna
Pass (Chama-Alamosa) won't do the trick.

> I guess its more a matter of how straight the road is so that you'd
> keep off of the brakes.

It has to be both straight and steep for 50-60 mph on a bike.
I believe your friend topped 60 on Ride the Rockies, but not
on this particular course.

Robert

Date: 30 Aug 2006 14:25:31
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

In article <EvjJg.20111$YC3.13942@tornado.socal.rr.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > writes:

>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
>> on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
>> without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>> BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>> Have a crappy day,
>> Bill Baka
>
> More BS, BS
>
> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>
> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>
> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
> You're an inspiration to us all!

It's all in the "aero tuck".

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 30 Aug 2006 11:39:44
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> >> Bill Baka wrote:
> >>
> >>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
> >>
> >> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
> >>
> >> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
> >>
> >> BS, BS
> >>
> >>
> > I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
> > on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
> > without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
> > BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
> > Have a crappy day,
> > Bill Baka
>
> More BS, BS
>
> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>
> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>
> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
> You're an inspiration to us all!
>
> LOL
>
> BS, BS

I've heard from a riding buddy that on descents during Ride the Rockies
that he has reached speeds as high as 66 mph. He is crazy enough to do
it.

Check the map book here for this year's course:
http://ridetherockies.com/MapBook06.pdf

Poncha Pass on day 5 looks pretty steep.
I guess its more a matter of how straight the road is so that you'd
keep off of the brakes.

-bdbafh

Date: 30 Aug 2006 19:28:47
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On 30 Aug 2006 11:39:44 -0700, bdbafh@gmail.com wrote:

>
>Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>> > Bill Sornson wrote:
>> >> Bill Baka wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>> >>
>> >> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>> >>
>> >> BS, BS
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
>> > on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
>> > without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>> > BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>> > Have a crappy day,
>> > Bill Baka
>>
>> More BS, BS
>>
>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
>> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>>
>> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
>> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>
>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
>> You're an inspiration to us all!
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> BS, BS
>
>I've heard from a riding buddy that on descents during Ride the Rockies
>that he has reached speeds as high as 66 mph. He is crazy enough to do
>it.
>

Billy Baka don't need no stinkin' Rockies to get to 50 & 60 MPH.

>Check the map book here for this year's course:
>http://ridetherockies.com/MapBook06.pdf
>
>Poncha Pass on day 5 looks pretty steep.
>I guess its more a matter of how straight the road is so that you'd
>keep off of the brakes.
>
>-bdbafh

Date: 22 Aug 2006 04:01:55
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Peter who? writes:

> Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you
> enter a turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian
> enters the road in front of you.

> You are not able to go around the obstruction.

> Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having
> the bicycle slide out from under you?

> There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
> times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me
> or a person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to
> take evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was
> exiting from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off
> a lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there
> was no time to make that panic turn.

This is mentioned in the FAQ:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

The essential part of that item is:

# Braking at maximum lean

# For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with
# good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G
# centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction
# demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking
# vectors is the square root of the sum of their squares,
# SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words,
# there is room to brake substantially during maximum cornering.
# Because the lean angle changes as the square of the speed, braking
# can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this
# reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex
# of turns.

You can see an example of this if you back up from the above URL:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

Jobst Brandt

Date: 27 Aug 2006 17:19:33
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Cars and motorcycles generally brake on the way into a corner, and
accelerate out. If you try to apply this sequence to a bicycle, it is
important not to ignore one important difference, and I don't remember
seeing it mentioned. Engine-powered vehicles can transfer weight to the
rear wheel by accelerating, thus inducing understeer. This stabilizes the
vehicle, and restores the formner speed. A cyclist can hardly expect to
induce understeer in this way. He is faced with the need to regain his
former momentum the old fashioned way. In order to conserve his momentum,
he is likely to brake less on the way in than a motorcyclist would. This
puts him at the apex with less uncommited traction, so there is a greater
likelihood of losing it. "Slow in and fast out," which is the rule for
motor vehicles, is not so good for bicycles.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 04:28:46
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Leo Lichtman writes:

> Cars and motorcycles generally brake on the way into a corner, and
> accelerate out. If you try to apply this sequence to a bicycle, it
> is important not to ignore one important difference, and I don't
> remember seeing it mentioned. Engine-powered vehicles can transfer
> weight to the rear wheel by accelerating, thus inducing understeer.
> This stabilizes the vehicle, and restores the former speed. A
> cyclist can hardly expect to induce understeer in this way. He is
> faced with the need to regain his former momentum the old fashioned
> way. In order to conserve his momentum, he is likely to brake less
> on the way in than a motorcyclist would. This puts him at the apex
> with less uncommitted traction, so there is a greater likelihood of
> losing it. "Slow in and fast out," which is the rule for motor
> vehicles, is not so good for bicycles.

I think you'll find that point addressed in the FAQ I referenced:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Along with an example of same, pictorially.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:00:24
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

"Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although
leaning the head with the bicycle and body is more natural to the
motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter."

I've read this many times before, and I have tried leaning my head
with the bicycle over the years. I have the following problem doing
this: in order to maintain a good view of the pavement with this
techniqe, I have to crane my neck up and direct my gaze upwards.
Besides making my neck hurt, the necessary upward gaze is obscured
by the top of my eye glasses.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://udctours.com/

Date: 29 Aug 2006 01:51:10
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Terry Morse writes:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

# "Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although
# leaning the head with the bicycle and body is more natural to the
# motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
# head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter."

> I've read this many times before, and I have tried leaning my head
> with the bicycle over the years. I have the following problem doing
> this: in order to maintain a good view of the pavement with this
> technique, I have to crane my neck up and direct my gaze upward.
> Besides making my neck hurt, the necessary upward gaze is obscured
> by the top of my eye glasses.

I think if you try it you'll find that if your hands are in the hooks
while braking, you have no alternative but to crane your neck back
regardless of how you tilt your head. Tilt and rotate is equivalent
to staying in line with the body. If your glasses are a problem then
they probably have too small an aperture in line with current fashion
of granny reading glasses.

Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my face
upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is more
tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another matter,
because they are not high speed cornering but more a parking maneuver.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 30 Aug 2006 00:22:41
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:44f39d8e$0$34562$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my face
> upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is more
> tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another matter,
> because they are not high speed cornering but more a parking maneuver.

Jobst, are you forgetting that it is pretty difficult to get a bike with the
handlebars anywhere near high enough these days of small size bikes and
threadless forks?

When your handlebars were 1" below your seat a person could ride the drops
and tilt his head back far enough to look ahead even on steep hills. When
the fashion and components started forcing you to have a handlebar 3"-4"
below the seat a lot of people cannot tilt their heads back enough from the
drops (another 3" drop) to see far enough forward.

Date: 30 Aug 2006 00:29:23
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Tom Kunich writes:

>> Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my
>> face upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is
>> more tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another
>> matter, because they are not high speed cornering but more a
>> parking maneuver.

> Jobst, are you forgetting that it is pretty difficult to get a bike
> with the handlebars anywhere near high enough these days of small
> size bikes and threadless forks?

> When your handlebars were 1" below your seat a person could ride the
> drops and tilt his head back far enough to look ahead even on steep
> hills. When the fashion and components started forcing you to have a
> handlebar 3"-4" below the seat a lot of people cannot tilt their
> heads back enough from the drops (another 3" drop) to see far enough
> forward.

I have no difficulty doing that even when tucked in, chin on thumb at
stem level, which I do on all top speed descents where braking is not
required. That's a lot lower than hands in the hooks, braking.

Excuses, excuses, ex... You might think these guys are old and stiff
the way they sound.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 31 Aug 2006 00:40:13
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:44f4dbe3$0$34576$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Tom Kunich writes:
>> Jobst, are you forgetting that it is pretty difficult to get a bike
>> with the handlebars anywhere near high enough these days of small
>> size bikes and threadless forks?
>
>> When your handlebars were 1" below your seat a person could ride the
>> drops and tilt his head back far enough to look ahead even on steep
>> hills. When the fashion and components started forcing you to have a
>> handlebar 3"-4" below the seat a lot of people cannot tilt their
>> heads back enough from the drops (another 3" drop) to see far enough
>> forward.
>
> I have no difficulty doing that even when tucked in, chin on thumb at
> stem level, which I do on all top speed descents where braking is not
> required. That's a lot lower than hands in the hooks, braking.
>
> Excuses, excuses, ex... You might think these guys are old and stiff
> the way they sound.

I've seen you before and you can't tell me you've been stiff in years.

Date: 30 Aug 2006 02:21:48
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tom Kunich writes:
>
>>> Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my
>>> face upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is
>>> more tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another
>>> matter, because they are not high speed cornering but more a
>>> parking maneuver.
>
>> Jobst, are you forgetting that it is pretty difficult to get a bike
>> with the handlebars anywhere near high enough these days of small
>> size bikes and threadless forks?
>
>> When your handlebars were 1" below your seat a person could ride the
>> drops and tilt his head back far enough to look ahead even on steep
>> hills. When the fashion and components started forcing you to have a
>> handlebar 3"-4" below the seat a lot of people cannot tilt their
>> heads back enough from the drops (another 3" drop) to see far enough
>> forward.
>
> I have no difficulty doing that even when tucked in, chin on thumb at
> stem level, which I do on all top speed descents where braking is not
> required. That's a lot lower than hands in the hooks, braking.
>
> Excuses, excuses, ex... You might think these guys are old and stiff
> the way they sound.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Some of us are old but not stiff. In my case I am very nearsighted and
if I have to look up from a total tuck every thing goes blurry looking
over the top of my glasses. Not that I slow down that much, but I do
have to sit up just a little to actually see in focus. I like going
downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can, but I also like to see what I might
hit, since I can't see even a 1" rock past 25 feet without my glasses
and that definitely could crash me. I have had 65 MPH motorcycle road
rash and I don't want a repeat on a mere bicycle. That would be too
embarrassing, even for me.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 20:04:34
From: Bill Bushnell
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:
> In my case I am very nearsighted and if I have to look up from a total tuck
> every thing goes blurry looking over the top of my glasses.

Get contact lenses. I'm moderatly myopic (about -4 diopter in each eye) and am
always more comfortable descending fast when wearing soft contacts than when
wearing glasses, especially if the road is rough. You need razor sharp distance
vision for this.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Date: 01 Sep 2006 16:40:12
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Bushnell wrote:
> Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>> In my case I am very nearsighted and if I have to look up from a total tuck
>> every thing goes blurry looking over the top of my glasses.
>
> Get contact lenses. I'm moderatly myopic (about -4 diopter in each eye) and am
> always more comfortable descending fast when wearing soft contacts than when
> wearing glasses, especially if the road is rough. You need razor sharp distance
> vision for this.
>
I wish I could but I have tried them and my eyes don't like them.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 05:41:04
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:21:48 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Tom Kunich writes:
>>
>>>> Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my
>>>> face upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is
>>>> more tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another
>>>> matter, because they are not high speed cornering but more a
>>>> parking maneuver.
>>
>>> Jobst, are you forgetting that it is pretty difficult to get a bike
>>> with the handlebars anywhere near high enough these days of small
>>> size bikes and threadless forks?
>>
>>> When your handlebars were 1" below your seat a person could ride the
>>> drops and tilt his head back far enough to look ahead even on steep
>>> hills. When the fashion and components started forcing you to have a
>>> handlebar 3"-4" below the seat a lot of people cannot tilt their
>>> heads back enough from the drops (another 3" drop) to see far enough
>>> forward.
>>
>> I have no difficulty doing that even when tucked in, chin on thumb at
>> stem level, which I do on all top speed descents where braking is not
>> required. That's a lot lower than hands in the hooks, braking.
>>
>> Excuses, excuses, ex... You might think these guys are old and stiff
>> the way they sound.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
>Some of us are old but not stiff. In my case I am very nearsighted and
>if I have to look up from a total tuck every thing goes blurry looking
>over the top of my glasses. Not that I slow down that much, but I do
>have to sit up just a little to actually see in focus. I like going
>downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can, but I also like to see what I might
>hit, since I can't see even a 1" rock past 25 feet without my glasses
>and that definitely could crash me. I have had 65 MPH motorcycle road
>rash and I don't want a repeat on a mere bicycle. That would be too
>embarrassing, even for me.
>Bill Baka

"I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can..."

Off a cliff.

Date: 30 Aug 2006 05:12:44
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:

> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can

On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?

Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.

BS, BS

Date: 30 Aug 2006 16:50:17
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>
> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>
> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>
> BS, BS
>
>
I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH on
a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
Have a crappy day,
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:01:24
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>
>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>
>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>
>> BS, BS
>>
>>
> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
> on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
> without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
> BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
> Have a crappy day,
> Bill Baka

More BS, BS

(On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)

I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
fairly straight -- but until I do it...

But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
You're an inspiration to us all!

LOL

BS, BS

Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:12:12
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>
>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>
>>> BS, BS
>>>
>>>
>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
>> on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
>> without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>> BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>> Have a crappy day,
>> Bill Baka
>
> More BS, BS
>
> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came close on
> Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a very cold day.)
>
> I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice steep hill that's
> fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>
> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron Bill!
> You're an inspiration to us all!
>
> LOL
>
> BS, BS
>
>
It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then it
goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I haven't
measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit 45 sitting
up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB top gear is 46/11.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:43:45
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka wrote:

>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can

>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>
>>>> BS, BS

>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
>>> on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I
>>> took without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>>> BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>>> Have a crappy day,
>>> Bill Baka

>> More BS, BS
>>
>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a
>> very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice
>> steep hill
>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>
>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron
>> Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> BS, BS

> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then it
> goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I haven't
> measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit 45 sitting
> up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB top gear is
> 46/11. Bill Baka

So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I could",
rather that your claim that you do. HTH

Date: 01 Sep 2006 16:37:02
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>
>>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>>
>>>>> BS, BS
>
>>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH
>>>> on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I
>>>> took without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>>>> BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>>>> Have a crappy day,
>>>> Bill Baka
>
>>> More BS, BS
>>>
>>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a
>>> very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on a nice
>>> steep hill
>>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>>
>>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron
>>> Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>>
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> BS, BS
>
>> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
>> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then it
>> goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I haven't
>> measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit 45 sitting
>> up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB top gear is
>> 46/11. Bill Baka
>
> So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I could",
> rather that your claim that you do. HTH
>
>
There are a few hills that are steep enough for 60 MPH but to get to
them I have to crawl my way up hill while sharing a major highway with
semis and SUVs. The semis are not a problem since they are crawling up
about as fast as I am, but the SUVs all have it floored and are doing
about 45 up that grade. It's a serious danger, more than even I like to
play with since the road was literally blasted out of rock and there is
not even a hint of a bike safety area. The rock cliff actually meets the
white line for about 300 feet on that steep right hander on the way up.
On the way down I am going fast enough to take the lane just like a car
and nobody has honked yet on the few times I made it up there.
60 MPH or more is definitely a possibility on that road.
California, highway 20 between The Englebright dam turnoff and the Rough
and Ready turnoff. Get a topo map and look it up, I am not giving you
the pointer.
Maybe later in the year when it cools off a bit. BTW, my mountain bike
now has slicks on it at 55 PSI since the knobbies never really help that
much anyway.
Bill Baka

Date: 01 Sep 2006 16:58:46
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>
>>>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BS, BS
>>
>>>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2
>>>>> MPH on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway
>>>>> descent I took without it so I guess I will have to go back and
>>>>> try again. BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions
>>>>> anymore. Have a crappy day,
>>>>> Bill Baka
>>
>>>> More BS, BS
>>>>
>>>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>>>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a
>>>> very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on
>>>> a nice steep hill
>>>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>>>
>>>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron
>>>> Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>>>
>>>> LOL
>>>>
>>>> BS, BS
>>
>>> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
>>> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then
>>> it goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I
>>> haven't measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit
>>> 45 sitting up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB
>>> top gear is 46/11. Bill Baka
>>
>> So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I
>> could", rather that your claim that you do. HTH
>>
>>
> There are a few hills that are steep enough for 60 MPH but to get to
> them I have to crawl my way up hill while sharing a major highway with
> semis and SUVs. The semis are not a problem since they are crawling up
> about as fast as I am, but the SUVs all have it floored and are doing
> about 45 up that grade. It's a serious danger, more than even I like
> to play with since the road was literally blasted out of rock and
> there is not even a hint of a bike safety area. The rock cliff
> actually meets the white line for about 300 feet on that steep right
> hander on the way up. On the way down I am going fast enough to take
> the lane just like a car and nobody has honked yet on the few times I
> made it up there. 60 MPH or more is definitely a possibility on that
> road. California, highway 20 between The Englebright dam turnoff and the
> Rough and Ready turnoff. Get a topo map and look it up, I am not
> giving you the pointer.
> Maybe later in the year when it cools off a bit. BTW, my mountain bike
> now has slicks on it at 55 PSI since the knobbies never really help
> that much anyway.
> Bill Baka

The point, Bill, is that you claimed to do it regularly ("I like going 60
MPH or more"). I bet you've never been over 40 (although I know you're
convinced otherwise).

Saying a hill should provide conditions that would produce certain speeds
and actual practice are two drastically different things. (For example, I
should be able to hit 50 MPH on Torrey Pines grade, but seldom even approach
40 due to ubiquitous coastal headwinds. I get as aero as I can and pedal in
53-12 and then max out -- look down, pfft, 36.7 or something. Maybe during
a Santa Ana... yeah, yeah, THAT's the ticket!)

Date: 01 Sep 2006 20:41:53
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>>>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BS, BS
>>>>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2
>>>>>> MPH on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway
>>>>>> descent I took without it so I guess I will have to go back and
>>>>>> try again. BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions
>>>>>> anymore. Have a crappy day,
>>>>>> Bill Baka
>>>>> More BS, BS
>>>>>
>>>>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>>>>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a
>>>>> very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on
>>>>> a nice steep hill
>>>>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>>>>
>>>>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron
>>>>> Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> BS, BS
>>>> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
>>>> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then
>>>> it goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I
>>>> haven't measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit
>>>> 45 sitting up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB
>>>> top gear is 46/11. Bill Baka
>>> So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I
>>> could", rather that your claim that you do. HTH
>>>
>>>
>> There are a few hills that are steep enough for 60 MPH but to get to
>> them I have to crawl my way up hill while sharing a major highway with
>> semis and SUVs. The semis are not a problem since they are crawling up
>> about as fast as I am, but the SUVs all have it floored and are doing
>> about 45 up that grade. It's a serious danger, more than even I like
>> to play with since the road was literally blasted out of rock and
>> there is not even a hint of a bike safety area. The rock cliff
>> actually meets the white line for about 300 feet on that steep right
>> hander on the way up. On the way down I am going fast enough to take
>> the lane just like a car and nobody has honked yet on the few times I
>> made it up there. 60 MPH or more is definitely a possibility on that
>> road. California, highway 20 between The Englebright dam turnoff and the
>> Rough and Ready turnoff. Get a topo map and look it up, I am not
>> giving you the pointer.
>> Maybe later in the year when it cools off a bit. BTW, my mountain bike
>> now has slicks on it at 55 PSI since the knobbies never really help
>> that much anyway.
>> Bill Baka
>
> The point, Bill, is that you claimed to do it regularly ("I like going 60
> MPH or more"). I bet you've never been over 40 (although I know you're
> convinced otherwise).
>
> Saying a hill should provide conditions that would produce certain speeds
> and actual practice are two drastically different things. (For example, I
> should be able to hit 50 MPH on Torrey Pines grade, but seldom even approach
> 40 due to ubiquitous coastal headwinds. I get as aero as I can and pedal in
> 53-12 and then max out -- look down, pfft, 36.7 or something. Maybe during
> a Santa Ana... yeah, yeah, THAT's the ticket!)
>
>
I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the descent
I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That is on a
lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I 'think' I
can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and straighter. In
fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the "bike lane = rock
cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride up there routinely.
I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the 46/11 I can pedal up to
about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big gravel semi but in both
cases the burst of that much energy leaves me,in your words, pfft.
As for wind, it seems to die around here once I get over about 200 feet
over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
Bill Baka

Date: 01 Sep 2006 23:37:34
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>>>>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BS, BS
>>>>>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2
>>>>>>> MPH on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway
>>>>>>> descent I took without it so I guess I will have to go back and
>>>>>>> try again. BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or
>>>>>>> opinions anymore. Have a crappy day,
>>>>>>> Bill Baka
>>>>>> More BS, BS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>>>>>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y;
>>>>>> also a very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach
>>>>>> 50+ mph on a nice steep hill
>>>>>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike,
>>>>>> Iron Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BS, BS
>>>>> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
>>>>> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then
>>>>> it goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I
>>>>> haven't measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can
>>>>> hit 45 sitting up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since
>>>>> the MTB top gear is 46/11. Bill Baka
>>>> So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I
>>>> could", rather that your claim that you do. HTH
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There are a few hills that are steep enough for 60 MPH but to get to
>>> them I have to crawl my way up hill while sharing a major highway
>>> with semis and SUVs. The semis are not a problem since they are
>>> crawling up about as fast as I am, but the SUVs all have it floored
>>> and are doing about 45 up that grade. It's a serious danger, more
>>> than even I like to play with since the road was literally blasted out
>>> of rock and
>>> there is not even a hint of a bike safety area. The rock cliff
>>> actually meets the white line for about 300 feet on that steep right
>>> hander on the way up. On the way down I am going fast enough to take
>>> the lane just like a car and nobody has honked yet on the few times
>>> I made it up there. 60 MPH or more is definitely a possibility on
>>> that road. California, highway 20 between The Englebright dam
>>> turnoff and the Rough and Ready turnoff. Get a topo map and look it
>>> up, I am not giving you the pointer.
>>> Maybe later in the year when it cools off a bit. BTW, my mountain
>>> bike now has slicks on it at 55 PSI since the knobbies never really
>>> help that much anyway.
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> The point, Bill, is that you claimed to do it regularly ("I like
>> going 60 MPH or more"). I bet you've never been over 40 (although I
>> know you're convinced otherwise).
>>
>> Saying a hill should provide conditions that would produce certain
>> speeds and actual practice are two drastically different things. (For
>> example, I should be able to hit 50 MPH on Torrey Pines grade,
>> but seldom even approach 40 due to ubiquitous coastal headwinds. I
>> get as aero as I can and pedal in 53-12 and then max out -- look
>> down, pfft, 36.7 or something. Maybe during a Santa Ana... yeah,
>> yeah, THAT's the ticket!)
> I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
> speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the
> descent I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That
> is on a lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I
> 'think' I can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and
> straighter. In fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the
> "bike lane = rock cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride
> up there routinely. I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the
> 46/11 I can pedal up to about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big
> gravel semi but in both cases the burst of that much energy leaves
> me,in your words, pfft. As for wind, it seems to die around here once I
> get over about 200
> feet over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
> Bill Baka

You wrote, quote: "I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more". That would be
like me posting, "I like making love to Elizabeth Hurley". While it's true
that I'd like to (sell your soul like to), it's dishonest saying I like it
as if it's ever happened.

Hope that's clear enough... BS

Date: 02 Sep 2006 00:13:46
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
>> speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the
>> descent I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That
>> is on a lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I
>> 'think' I can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and
>> straighter. In fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the
>> "bike lane = rock cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride
>> up there routinely. I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the
>> 46/11 I can pedal up to about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big
>> gravel semi but in both cases the burst of that much energy leaves
>> me,in your words, pfft. As for wind, it seems to die around here once I
>> get over about 200
>> feet over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
>> Bill Baka
>
> You wrote, quote: "I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more". That would be
> like me posting, "I like making love to Elizabeth Hurley". While it's true
> that I'd like to (sell your soul like to), it's dishonest saying I like it
> as if it's ever happened.
>
> Hope that's clear enough... BS
>
>
Sorni,
It depends on the road and 50 MPH per the speedometer is the usual
'coast' speed on the safe road. The unsafe road is steeper, enough that
semis don't have the oomph to pass me going uphill. I know from gut
feeling that I was going faster on the main highway than on the lesser
traveled road, but haven't tried it with the speedometer on the bike.
The main reason is that it is too damned dangerous to get up that high
on that road and there are no alternatives, not even dirt roads.
As for 60 MPH, while it might be a bit of a rush on a bicycle it is just
plain boring under 90 on a motorcycle, but then I sold mine so I am
having speed withdrawals.
Bill Baka

Date: 02 Sep 2006 01:59:55
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>> I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with
>>> a speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the
>>> descent I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That
>>> is on a lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I
>>> 'think' I can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and
>>> straighter. In fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the
>>> "bike lane = rock cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to
>>> ride up there routinely. I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With
>>> the 46/11 I can pedal up to about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting
>>> a big gravel semi but in both cases the burst of that much energy
>>> leaves me,in your words, pfft. As for wind, it seems to die around
>>> here once I get over about 200
>>> feet over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> You wrote, quote: "I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more". That
>> would be like me posting, "I like making love to Elizabeth Hurley". While
>> it's true that I'd like to (sell your soul like to), it's
>> dishonest saying I like it as if it's ever happened.
>>
>> Hope that's clear enough... BS
>>
>>
> Sorni,
> It depends on the road and 50 MPH per the speedometer is the usual
> 'coast' speed on the safe road. The unsafe road is steeper, enough
> that semis don't have the oomph to pass me going uphill. I know from
> gut feeling that I was going faster on the main highway than on the
> lesser traveled road, but haven't tried it with the speedometer on
> the bike. The main reason is that it is too damned dangerous to get
> up that high on that road and there are no alternatives, not even
> dirt roads. As for 60 MPH, while it might be a bit of a rush on a bicycle
> it is
> just plain boring under 90 on a motorcycle, but then I sold mine so I
> am having speed withdrawals.
> Bill Baka

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......................................................................

Date: 01 Sep 2006 21:07:01
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:41:53 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>>>>>>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BS, BS
>>>>>>> I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2
>>>>>>> MPH on a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway
>>>>>>> descent I took without it so I guess I will have to go back and
>>>>>>> try again. BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions
>>>>>>> anymore. Have a crappy day,
>>>>>>> Bill Baka
>>>>>> More BS, BS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (On a /road/ bike with skinny tires, I've not yet hit 50 mph. Came
>>>>>> close on Montezuma Grade, but it was very windy AND wind-y; also a
>>>>>> very cold day.) I'd like to think I could easily reach 50+ mph on
>>>>>> a nice steep hill
>>>>>> that's fairly straight -- but until I do it...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But good to know you do it /routinely/ on your mountain bike, Iron
>>>>>> Bill! You're an inspiration to us all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BS, BS
>>>>> It's a steep hill that is a bitch to ride, and I have conceded to
>>>>> gravity more than once and walked the final few hundred feet. Then
>>>>> it goes down a bit and up even more to the top at 985 feet. I
>>>>> haven't measured the incline but it is steep. On that one I can hit
>>>>> 45 sitting up and not pedaling, which I can't anyway since the MTB
>>>>> top gear is 46/11. Bill Baka
>>>> So all you had to say was, "I'd like to go downhill at 60 MPH if I
>>>> could", rather that your claim that you do. HTH
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There are a few hills that are steep enough for 60 MPH but to get to
>>> them I have to crawl my way up hill while sharing a major highway with
>>> semis and SUVs. The semis are not a problem since they are crawling up
>>> about as fast as I am, but the SUVs all have it floored and are doing
>>> about 45 up that grade. It's a serious danger, more than even I like
>>> to play with since the road was literally blasted out of rock and
>>> there is not even a hint of a bike safety area. The rock cliff
>>> actually meets the white line for about 300 feet on that steep right
>>> hander on the way up. On the way down I am going fast enough to take
>>> the lane just like a car and nobody has honked yet on the few times I
>>> made it up there. 60 MPH or more is definitely a possibility on that
>>> road. California, highway 20 between The Englebright dam turnoff and the
>>> Rough and Ready turnoff. Get a topo map and look it up, I am not
>>> giving you the pointer.
>>> Maybe later in the year when it cools off a bit. BTW, my mountain bike
>>> now has slicks on it at 55 PSI since the knobbies never really help
>>> that much anyway.
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> The point, Bill, is that you claimed to do it regularly ("I like going 60
>> MPH or more"). I bet you've never been over 40 (although I know you're
>> convinced otherwise).
>>
>> Saying a hill should provide conditions that would produce certain speeds
>> and actual practice are two drastically different things. (For example, I
>> should be able to hit 50 MPH on Torrey Pines grade, but seldom even approach
>> 40 due to ubiquitous coastal headwinds. I get as aero as I can and pedal in
>> 53-12 and then max out -- look down, pfft, 36.7 or something. Maybe during
>> a Santa Ana... yeah, yeah, THAT's the ticket!)
>>
>>
>I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
>speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the descent
>I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That is on a
>lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I 'think' I
>can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and straighter. In
>fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the "bike lane = rock
>cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride up there routinely.
>I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the 46/11 I can pedal up to
>about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big gravel semi but in both
>cases the burst of that much energy leaves me,in your words, pfft.
>As for wind, it seems to die around here once I get over about 200 feet
>over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
>Bill Baka

This Doofus probably got a used computer from some junkpile, never
calibrated it and its set in kilometers.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 00:07:49
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

R Brickston wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:41:53 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>
>> I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
>> speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the descent
>> I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That is on a
>> lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I 'think' I
>> can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and straighter. In
>> fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the "bike lane = rock
>> cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride up there routinely.
>> I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the 46/11 I can pedal up to
>> about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big gravel semi but in both
>> cases the burst of that much energy leaves me,in your words, pfft.
>> As for wind, it seems to die around here once I get over about 200 feet
>> over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
>> Bill Baka
>
> This Doofus probably got a used computer from some junkpile, never
> calibrated it and its set in kilometers.

Talking about yourself now, Brick?
You are the definition of 'wasted bandwidth'.
Bill Baka

Date: 02 Sep 2006 04:11:12
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:07:49 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>R Brickston wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:41:53 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I did not say I do it regularly, only that I would like to try with a
>>> speedometer on the bike. The 50 MPH is about the normal for the descent
>>> I make normally where gravity does all the work for me. That is on a
>>> lightly used road that does have turns but no tight ones. I 'think' I
>>> can hit 60 on the highway because it is a lot steeper and straighter. In
>>> fact I may have hit it last year when I braved the "bike lane = rock
>>> cliff" part of it. It is just too dangerous to ride up there routinely.
>>> I may be crazy but I am not stupid. With the 46/11 I can pedal up to
>>> about 30 on a straight and 35 drafting a big gravel semi but in both
>>> cases the burst of that much energy leaves me,in your words, pfft.
>>> As for wind, it seems to die around here once I get over about 200 feet
>>> over the valley floor, so maybe different mountain terrain.
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> This Doofus probably got a used computer from some junkpile, never
>> calibrated it and its set in kilometers.
>
>Talking about yourself now, Brick?
>You are the definition of 'wasted bandwidth'.
>Bill Baka

Well, Billy "Lance" Baka, mine /is/ set in KM and calibrated, but I
don't go around bragging about blazing down hills on a pos beater bike
going as fast as anyone in the TDF peloton on their expensive custom
made carbon fiber machines.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 17:46:46
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

R Brickston wrote:
>
> Well, Billy "Lance" Baka, mine /is/ set in KM and calibrated, but I
> don't go around bragging about blazing down hills on a pos beater bike
> going as fast as anyone in the TDF peloton on their expensive custom
> made carbon fiber machines.

Gravity is gravity, doofus.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:01:13
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 17:46:46 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>R Brickston wrote:
>>
>> Well, Billy "Lance" Baka, mine /is/ set in KM and calibrated, but I
>> don't go around bragging about blazing down hills on a pos beater bike
>> going as fast as anyone in the TDF peloton on their expensive custom
>> made carbon fiber machines.
>
>Gravity is gravity, doofus.

In your case, veracity equates to the lack thereof.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:26:48
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

R Brickston wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 17:46:46 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>
>> R Brickston wrote:
>>> Well, Billy "Lance" Baka, mine /is/ set in KM and calibrated, but I
>>> don't go around bragging about blazing down hills on a pos beater bike
>>> going as fast as anyone in the TDF peloton on their expensive custom
>>> made carbon fiber machines.
>> Gravity is gravity, doofus.
>
> In your case, veracity equates to the lack thereof.

Uhhh, dipshit,
My so called beater has road slicks pumped up to 55 PSI and is NOT the
Huffy, which is my real beater, with over 5,000 miles on it. I doubt if
taking my 700c x 25 (28?) serious road bike would get me any faster in a
non-pedaling, gravity does the work, speed situation.
Speaking of gravity, it seems to have migrated your brain down to the
level of your ass.
Why would I want to spend $5,000 on a carbon fiber bike that I would
just break???
I ride to explore, not just to try to brag about doing centuries at 25
MPH average.
Go get laid or something, if you can, since you seem to need it, badly.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:00:18
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:50:17 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>>
>> On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>>
>> Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>>
>> BS, BS
>>
>>
>I have a computer on my main mountain bike and have clocked 50.2 MPH on
>a hill that was nowhere near as steep as one highway descent I took
>without it so I guess I will have to go back and try again.
>BTW, I give a flying F**k about your posts or opinions anymore.
>Have a crappy day,
>Bill Baka

Yeah! How DARE you challenge Billy's veracity.

And BTW, that 50.2 MPH was with full knobby's running 34 psi and the
rear brake was dragging. When Billy says, "flying F**k," he's not
kidding.

Date: 30 Aug 2006 05:42:36
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:12:44 GMT, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:

>Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> ... I like going downhill at 60 MPH or more if I can
>
>On what bike do you do this -- with no cyclometer, IIRC?
>
>Sorry, Bill, gotta call BS...again.
>
>BS, BS
>

Oh, Billy is quite unstoppable. Next he'll tell you about putting the
car on the same hill and coasting to give afairly accurate speed
reading on the bike.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 02:12:04
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Terry Morse writes:
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
>
> # "Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although
> # leaning the head with the bicycle and body is more natural to the
> # motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
> # head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter."
>
>> I've read this many times before, and I have tried leaning my head
>> with the bicycle over the years. I have the following problem doing
>> this: in order to maintain a good view of the pavement with this
>> technique, I have to crane my neck up and direct my gaze upward.
>> Besides making my neck hurt, the necessary upward gaze is obscured
>> by the top of my eye glasses.
>
> I think if you try it you'll find that if your hands are in the hooks
> while braking, you have no alternative but to crane your neck back
> regardless of how you tilt your head. Tilt and rotate is equivalent
> to staying in line with the body. If your glasses are a problem then
> they probably have too small an aperture in line with current fashion
> of granny reading glasses.
>
> Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my face
> upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is more
> tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another matter,
> because they are not high speed cornering but more a parking maneuver.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Agreed unless you are in an aero tuck and then you would really be
straining your neck. I sit up just enough to see even if it does cost a
few MPH, but then I am not racing anyone either. In the last 4 or 5
years of watching most of the Tour de France I have seen some pileups on
turns, and Lance's classic cut across the field. How does it work with a
recumbent?
Bill Baka

Date: 29 Aug 2006 22:24:11
From: Bill Bushnell
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > Sitting here in front of my KBD I have little trouble tuning my face
> > upward to look at the ceiling (with reading glasses). That is more
> > tilt than I need to corner fast. Hairpin turns are another matter,
> > because they are not high speed cornering but more a parking maneuver.

> Agreed unless you are in an aero tuck and then you would really be
> straining your neck. I sit up just enough to see even if it does cost a
> few MPH, but then I am not racing anyone either. In the last 4 or 5
> years of watching most of the Tour de France I have seen some pileups on
> turns, and Lance's classic cut across the field. How does it work with a
> recumbent?

Visibility through the corner is easier requiring less craning of the neck and
rolling of the eyes because the head is held at a natural attitude with respect
to the body, similar to that of an auto driver or airplane pilot. Because the
arms and wrists are relaxed, not having to support the weight of the upper body,
slight adjustments to the line through a corner can be made more easily without
overcompensating. Likewise with braking.

As for cutting across a field, it's been done a recumbent.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Date: 29 Aug 2006 01:21:50
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

"Terry Morse" <tmorse@spamcop.net > wrote in message
news:tmorse-1254A2.18001628082006@news.covad.net...
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
>
> "Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although
> leaning the head with the bicycle and body is more natural to the
> motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
> head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter."
>
> I've read this many times before, and I have tried leaning my head
> with the bicycle over the years. I have the following problem doing
> this: in order to maintain a good view of the pavement with this
> techniqe, I have to crane my neck up and direct my gaze upwards.
> Besides making my neck hurt, the necessary upward gaze is obscured
> by the top of my eye glasses.

Not to mention those bushy eyebrows of yours.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 01:12:01
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Terry Morse wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html
>
> "Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although
> leaning the head with the bicycle and body is more natural to the
> motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
> head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter."

How could they if they do a 360?
>
> I've read this many times before, and I have tried leaning my head
> with the bicycle over the years. I have the following problem doing
> this: in order to maintain a good view of the pavement with this
> techniqe, I have to crane my neck up and direct my gaze upwards.
> Besides making my neck hurt, the necessary upward gaze is obscured
> by the top of my eye glasses.

NASCAR drivers complained about that at one of the paved ovals that bad
super banks of the turns so they could go faster. The problem was that
due to the extreme banks they could not see an accident in front of
them, something that is kind of important at 180 MPH. Anything more than
a few hundred feet was out of sight upwards in that high a bank.
Most normal roads are not banked and some are even banked the wrong way
due to some brilliant highway engineer who wanted the rain to drain to
the ditch on the outside of the turn. He must have forgot that cars
would be driving on that rain slicked road and the reverse banking would
make for more accidents. Ditto for bikes.
Bill Baka

Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:29:54
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> Cars and motorcycles generally brake on the way into a corner, and
> accelerate out. If you try to apply this sequence to a bicycle, it is
> important not to ignore one important difference, and I don't remember
> seeing it mentioned. Engine-powered vehicles can transfer weight to the
> rear wheel by accelerating, thus inducing understeer. This stabilizes the
> vehicle, and restores the formner speed. A cyclist can hardly expect to
> induce understeer in this way. He is faced with the need to regain his
> former momentum the old fashioned way. In order to conserve his momentum,
> he is likely to brake less on the way in than a motorcyclist would. This
> puts him at the apex with less uncommited traction, so there is a greater
> likelihood of losing it. "Slow in and fast out," which is the rule for
> motor vehicles, is not so good for bicycles.
>
>
As an aside, you also can not pedal if you are leaned over too far in a
tight corner or you will dump/crash when the lower pedal hits the
ground. I learned this the hard way like most 8 year olds trying to race
some other kids. Also with both motorcycles and Indy cars the racers
know to brake down to cornering speed before actually turning since in
the turn the tires are fully committed to lateral G forces. With a motor
vehicle and enough power you can achieve a rear wheel drift but this is
more for show than go. It only works with a front engine, rear wheel
drive car though, or a motorcycle, in which case you had better be
damned good before trying it on pavement.
Bill Baka

Date: 21 Aug 2006 19:45:02
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Date: 21 Aug 2006 15:15:02
From: Chris Z The Wheelman
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Ride the hill slower if it's that dangerous, or better yet, find a safer
hill! Hard braking in a hard turn usually equals a skid, so if it comes
to that, purposly skid the rear wheel ala' BMX style. At least that way
you'll be less likely to seriouly crash.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Date: 23 Aug 2006 20:17:20
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

In article <7622-44EA0636-65@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net >,
dedendaddy4spammers@webtv.net (Chris Z The Wheelman) wrote:

> Ride the hill slower if it's that dangerous, or better yet, find a safer
> hill! Hard braking in a hard turn usually equals a skid, so if it comes
> to that, purposly skid the rear wheel ala' BMX style. At least that way
> you'll be less likely to seriouly crash.

Chris, I've actually managed to drift a rear wheel in an ashphalt corner
and live (under race conditions, no less! I won the prime that was about
200m down the road) but I don't recommend it as a high-percentage move.

Jobst is pretty much completely in the right about the proper cornering
technique, which differs from that of motorcycles for a few reasons, not
least of which is that the Motorcycle Safety Foundation is designed to
lead you into high-percentage decisions like separating braking and
cornering.

Motorcycle racers, who are very good at things like handling a
motorcycle and who are willing to take the associated risks, happily
brake both wheels well past the corner entry point these days. Of
course, the dynamics of a motorcycle are so different from conventional
bicycles as to make comparisons...imperfect.

That said, the universal advice to not get in over your head is good
advice. The real trick to learning how to corner well is to approach the
limits of traction without ever exceeding them.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 24 Aug 2006 01:00:51
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Ryan Cousineau writes:

>> Ride the hill slower if it's that dangerous, or better yet, find a
>> safer hill! Hard braking in a hard turn usually equals a skid, so
>> if it comes to that, purposely skid the rear wheel ala' BMX style.
>> At least that way you'll be less likely to seriously crash.

> Chris, I've actually managed to drift a rear wheel in an asphalt
> corner and live (under race conditions, no less! I won the prime
> that was about 200m down the road) but I don't recommend it as a
> high-percentage move.

> Jobst is pretty much completely in the right about the proper
> cornering technique, which differs from that of motorcycles for a
> few reasons, not least of which is that the Motorcycle Safety
> Foundation is designed to lead you into high-percentage decisions
> like separating braking and cornering.

> Motorcycle racers, who are very good at things like handling a
> motorcycle and who are willing to take the associated risks, happily
> brake both wheels well past the corner entry point these days. Of
> course, the dynamics of a motorcycle are so different from
> conventional bicycles as to make comparisons... imperfect.

> That said, the universal advice to not get in over your head is good
> advice. The real trick to learning how to corner well is to
> approach the limits of traction without ever exceeding them.

That is asking a lot. How do you develop a feel for the limit? I and
my fellow fast descenders did it in younger days where falling seldom
caused more than pavement rash, without breaking bones. One of the
reasons I can assess accident reconstructions is that I have fallen
off a bicycle most any way possible... or was close by when someone
else did it.

The claims riders make for some of the cases brought to court are
highly credible to people who haven't done it. All the ones I have
seen were liars.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 25 Aug 2006 15:57:53
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

In article <44ecfa43$0$34552$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau writes:
>
> >> Ride the hill slower if it's that dangerous, or better yet, find a
> >> safer hill! Hard braking in a hard turn usually equals a skid, so
> >> if it comes to that, purposely skid the rear wheel ala' BMX style.
> >> At least that way you'll be less likely to seriously crash.
>
> > Chris, I've actually managed to drift a rear wheel in an asphalt
> > corner and live (under race conditions, no less! I won the prime
> > that was about 200m down the road) but I don't recommend it as a
> > high-percentage move.
>
> > Jobst is pretty much completely in the right about the proper
> > cornering technique, which differs from that of motorcycles for a
> > few reasons, not least of which is that the Motorcycle Safety
> > Foundation is designed to lead you into high-percentage decisions
> > like separating braking and cornering.
>
> > Motorcycle racers, who are very good at things like handling a
> > motorcycle and who are willing to take the associated risks, happily
> > brake both wheels well past the corner entry point these days. Of
> > course, the dynamics of a motorcycle are so different from
> > conventional bicycles as to make comparisons... imperfect.
>
> > That said, the universal advice to not get in over your head is good
> > advice. The real trick to learning how to corner well is to
> > approach the limits of traction without ever exceeding them.
>
> That is asking a lot. How do you develop a feel for the limit? I and
> my fellow fast descenders did it in younger days where falling seldom
> caused more than pavement rash, without breaking bones. One of the
> reasons I can assess accident reconstructions is that I have fallen
> off a bicycle most any way possible... or was close by when someone
> else did it.

Indeed it is. My guess is that the best training is much like what has
worked very well for motorcycle racers: if you start on low-traction
surfaces (dirt), you're likely to learn a lot of skills that transfer
well to ashphalt.

I recently tested this theory out by riding my slick-tired road bike
through a bunch of unchallenging dirt-and-gravel trails. The road rash
was non-fatal.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 11 Aug 2006 13:23:09
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

I may be off-base here, but after riding motocross for the past six
years, I don't see much of an issue with braking while turning. A lot
of people will tell you that on a motorcycle, you should have most of
your braking done before entering a turn (considering how much wider
the rear tire is than the front, so it gives better support/traction
while accelerating rather than decelerating), which is mostly true, but
braking while turning isn't a severe no-no.

If that rear wheel is going to slide, move your weight back to get more
of it over that wheel for better traction. Same goes for the front.
Always, always weight the outside pedal for better traction, especially
on a bicycle. Better yet, if a slide commences, get off the brakes a
bit and for god's sake, keep your eyes and head up.

And keep it on two wheels. You'll come to a stop much faster on rubber
tires rather than your ass.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 13:06:19
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Date: 11 Aug 2006 09:18:58
From: Veloise
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Peter wrote:
> Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
> turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
> road in front of you.
>
> You are not able to go around the obstruction.
>
> Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
> bicycle slide out from under you?
>
> There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
> times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
> person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
> evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
> from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.
>
> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
> lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
> no time to make that panic turn.

If this happened to me often enough to start thinking about that
location, I would:

--ride further out in the lane so as to be more visible

--practice with my personal PA system (the loud shout)

--experiment with various loud comments such as "HEY!" or "NO BRAKES!"

Or take it slower.

HTH

--Karen D.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 09:10:10
From:
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> > Bill Baka wrote:
> >
> >> Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
> >> wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
> >> go to the hospital and be out of the race.
> >
> > That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
> > inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
> > soft" there as well.)
> >
> >
> Still,
> It serves as an example of trying to go too fast on a turn.
> Bill Baka

Bill,

No, you are incorrect.
It was a prime example of a cyclist taking the wrong line on a curve.
The rider following the lead bike that caught the gravel had good
traction and a good line and was not going too fast for the turn.
He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It was gravel, not braking, not going too fast.
It was a race, not a ride for a cup of coffee or an ice cream cone.

-bdbafh

Date: 11 Aug 2006 08:41:30
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
> turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
> road in front of you.
>
> You are not able to go around the obstruction.
>
> Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
> bicycle slide out from under you?
>
> There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
> times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
> person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
> evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
> from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.
>
> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
> lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
> no time to make that panic turn.
>
> Thanks for all relevant advice.
>
> Peter
>

From:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html >

Braking

Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it
fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to
lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the
average and the fast rider. When approaching a curve with good traction,
the front brake can be used almost exclusively, because it is capable of
slowing the bicycle so rapidly that nearly all weight transfers to the
front wheel, at which point the rear brake is nearly useless. Once in
the curve, more and more traction is used to resist lateral slip as the
lean angle increases, but that does not mean the brakes cannot be used.
When banked over, braking should be done with both brakes, because now
neither wheel has much traction to spare and with lighter braking,
weight transfers diminishes. A feel for how hard the front brake must be
applied for rear wheel lift-off, can be developed at low speed.

Braking in Corners

Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn,
speed will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating
maximum speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a
circular arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of
braking in curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking
at a point where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to
match the conditions.

Substantial weight transfer from the rear to the front wheel will
occur with strong use of the front brake on good traction just before
entering the curve. When traction is poor or the lean angle is great,
deceleration cannot be large and therefore, weight transfer will be
small, so light braking with both wheels is appropriate. If traction is
miserable, only the rear brake should be used, because although a rear
skid is recoverable, a front skid is generally not. An exception to this
is in deep snow, where the front wheel can slide and function as a sled
runner while being steered.

Braking at maximum lean

For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with
good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal
acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one
half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square
root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase
of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during
maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the
speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking.
For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the
apex of turns.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 13:19:38
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Peter Cole wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
>> turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
>> road in front of you.
>>
>> You are not able to go around the obstruction.
>>
>> Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
>> bicycle slide out from under you?
>>
>> There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
>> times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
>> person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
>> evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
>> from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.
>>
>> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
>> lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
>> no time to make that panic turn.
>>
>> Thanks for all relevant advice.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>
> From:
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html>
>
> Braking
>
> Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it
> fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to
> lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the
> average and the fast rider. When approaching a curve with good traction,
> the front brake can be used almost exclusively, because it is capable of
> slowing the bicycle so rapidly that nearly all weight transfers to the
> front wheel, at which point the rear brake is nearly useless. Once in
> the curve, more and more traction is used to resist lateral slip as the
> lean angle increases, but that does not mean the brakes cannot be used.
> When banked over, braking should be done with both brakes, because now
> neither wheel has much traction to spare and with lighter braking,
> weight transfers diminishes. A feel for how hard the front brake must be
> applied for rear wheel lift-off, can be developed at low speed.

Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear wheel
slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to go to the
hospital and be out of the race.
>
> Braking in Corners
>
> Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn, speed
> will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating maximum
> speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a circular
> arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of braking in
> curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking at a point
> where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to match the
> conditions.

Braking in corners is a big no-no because you are usually at the
traction limit of the tire and the 700 x 25 or thereabouts don't have
much tread to spare.
>
> Substantial weight transfer from the rear to the front wheel will
> occur with strong use of the front brake on good traction just before
> entering the curve. When traction is poor or the lean angle is great,
> deceleration cannot be large and therefore, weight transfer will be
> small, so light braking with both wheels is appropriate. If traction is
> miserable, only the rear brake should be used, because although a rear
> skid is recoverable, a front skid is generally not. An exception to this
> is in deep snow, where the front wheel can slide and function as a sled
> runner while being steered.

Never tried it but it sounds like fun if you fall into the soft snow.
>
> Braking at maximum lean
>
> For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with
> good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal
> acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one
> half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square
> root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase
> of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during
> maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the
> speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking.
> For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the
> apex of turns.

I have gotten to about 45%, don't know how close and it was scary, being
on the limit of traction. That was the point where I did not want to
push it since I was passing cars on a 15% downhill and doing about 50
MPH +. Not the time to find out how bad road rash feels when there is a
car right behind you in the turn.

Bill Baka

Date: 14 Aug 2006 03:31:02
From: Booker C. Bense
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <Kt%Cg.5818$9T3.3077@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net >,
Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:
>>
>> Braking in Corners
>>
>> Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn, speed
>> will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating maximum
>> speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a circular
>> arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of braking in
>> curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking at a point
>> where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to match the
>> conditions.
>
>Braking in corners is a big no-no because you are usually at the
>traction limit of the tire and the 700 x 25 or thereabouts don't have
>much tread to spare.

_ Please restrain your drivel to unimportant topics. Learning to
brake at the apex of a corner is essential to long term survival
as cyclist. On dry solid pavement, most people get no where near
the traction limit of the bike. If you aren't braking in turns
now, start practicing, it could save your life some day.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:46:48
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka wrote:

> Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
> wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
> go to the hospital and be out of the race.

That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
soft" there as well.)

Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:57:37
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
>> wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
>> go to the hospital and be out of the race.
>
> That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
> inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
> soft" there as well.)
>
>
Still,
It serves as an example of trying to go too fast on a turn.
Bill Baka

Date: 11 Aug 2006 01:18:05
From: Sir Ridesalot
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Mike Kruger" wrote: See
> http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some techniques
> like "Instaturn" (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I was hoping to learn something. Instead, I find out that "instaturn" is
> his name for the process of riding and balancing a bicycle. *If you must
> turn right, start by turning to the left.* Most of us know that this is how
> to initiate the lean needed to stay balanced in a turn. Even people who
> don't know how to explain it, do it without knowing. I am convinced that
> anyone who consciously tries to remember to do this in an emergency will
> probably freeze at the controls, and crash.

I know what you mean.

The advice given there I already knew.

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
wipeout.

Peter

Date: 11 Aug 2006 17:44:19
From: Chris Neary
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

>My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
>go down.

No strictly true. The more accurate statement is: "Exceeding the traction
limit of the tire in a turn is almost a sure way to go down".

The key is to gain enough experience so you can brake closer to the traction
limit, without exceeding it.

If you have to pick a tire to lose traction with, the rear is the clear
choice. I've briefly broken traction on my rear tire on occasion but was
able restore traction by immediatlely releasing the brake.

Not that I'm recommending you try doing this.

Good luck!

Chris Neary
diabloridr@tcsn.net

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:40:03
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
> go down.

Not true at all. It's all about moderation and modulation. (And, if you
really HAVE to "panic brake", then going down is most likely preferable to
whatever the other choice was!)

> I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
> emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing
> a wipeout.

Practice it. Learn how to scrub speed quickly, turn the front wheel to
avoid sliding out, unclip inside foot if possible, etc.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 06:47:16
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
>
> I know what you mean.
>
> The advice given there I already knew.
>
> My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
> go down.
>
> I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
> emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
> wipeout.
>
> Peter
>

Peter, all I know is that I ride mostly in a very large residential
area. Though there are some excellent long stretches because of a major
golf course that is here, I still have some otherwise wonderful
downhills with connecting residential streets. The only thing I can do
about them is to moderate my speed for the potential hazards. I don't
know any way to shut the speed down without dumping the bike, which I
don't want to do, so I just have to keep the speed down, since I can't
rely on the motorists to always see me.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 12:13:16
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

catzz66 wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>
>>
>> I know what you mean.
>>
>> The advice given there I already knew.
>>
>> My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
>> go down.
>>
>> I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
>> emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
>> wipeout.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>
> Peter, all I know is that I ride mostly in a very large residential
> area. Though there are some excellent long stretches because of a major
> golf course that is here, I still have some otherwise wonderful
> downhills with connecting residential streets. The only thing I can do
> about them is to moderate my speed for the potential hazards. I don't
> know any way to shut the speed down without dumping the bike, which I
> don't want to do, so I just have to keep the speed down, since I can't
> rely on the motorists to always see me.

Since I am up early today I will follow up on what I posted earlier.
Speed on a safer turn, it really is that simple. I rode motorcycles to
the edge and have done so with bicycles and trust me, you doe not want
to use the front brake unless you PLAN to go down. The rear wheel can
skid some and you have some control, even if that control is, as my
motorcycle friends say, just to lay it down and skid. Using the front
brake on a turn is a fool's move, with or without a motor. They are only
good for straight line, good pavement slowing. Years of motored and
pedaled bikes have driven this into me pretty good, road rash included.
If you just have to make a best time run out of a corner where cars may
be then you need another route or quit trying to race on blind turns.
You'll live longer.
Bill Baka (resident survivor)

Date: 12 Aug 2006 15:38:59
From: wvantwiller
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Bill Baka <larrys707@sbcglobal.net > wrote in
news:wv_Cg.5805$9T3.1990@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:

...

> If you just have to make a best time run out of a corner
> where cars may be then you need another route or quit trying to race
> on blind turns. You'll live longer.
> Bill Baka (resident survivor)

The nasty thing in addition is cars have a habit of being in the center of
the road in the curve, too. That's how car-car accidents occur, but they
have seatbelts and airbags.

A trip over the handlebars while trying to scrub off speed when a car and I
nearly met in the middle of a turn, and the courtesy stitches afterwards,
cured me of taking even familiar corners fast and wide.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 03:46:38
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

"Sir Ridesalot" <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca > wrote in message
news:1155264918.423368.203620@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>
> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
> lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
> no time to make that panic turn.
>
See http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some
techniques like "Instaturn" and "Panic Stop".

Date: 11 Aug 2006 06:10:26
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

"Mike Kruger" wrote: See
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some techniques
like "Instaturn" (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was hoping to learn something. Instead, I find out that "instaturn" is
his name for the process of riding and balancing a bicycle. *If you must
turn right, start by turning to the left.* Most of us know that this is how
to initiate the lean needed to stay balanced in a turn. Even people who
don't know how to explain it, do it without knowing. I am convinced that
anyone who consciously tries to remember to do this in an emergency will
probably freeze at the controls, and crash.

Date: 11 Aug 2006 05:51:16
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: Braking while turning?

Mike Kruger wrote:
> "Sir Ridesalot" <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1155264918.423368.203620@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
>> lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
>> no time to make that panic turn.
>>
> See http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some
> techniques like "Instaturn" and "Panic Stop".
>
>
Speed on a safer turn?
Bill Baka

Less cars?