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Main
Date: 22 Jan 2007 02:22:39
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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I'm heading down 84 (above Woodside, California) with my 14-year-old son
today; he's got maybe 500 (or less) road miles under his belt, while I've
got... geez, I dunno, but over 200k anyway. And I'm watching the way he
dives into some of the corners, and other times hanging way, way, way to the
outside. You know, that area where you might find a bit of gravel now & then
so you avoid it. And a few times I'm actually having a bit of trouble
keeping up with him, but figure no matter what, I'm riding behind him, so if
he does go down, I can keep any cars off his back.
He's taking different lines than I would, essentially testing the adhesion
of his tires in ways that I wouldn't. But he's doing so because, well, he
just doesn't know any better, because he hasn't become one with the pavement
yet. At least that's what I'm rationalizing. And yet I'm also thinking that
maybe I've just become too conservative over the years.
When I was racing, I would descend better for several months *after* a
crash, because there was that reassurance that hey, you survived it, no
biggie, things happen sometimes, don't sweat it too much. But then when I'd
go for a long period of time without hitting the pavement, I'd actually
start losing my nerve a bit and descend more slowly, thinking it was
something to be avoided at all costs, rather than, well, just one of those
things that happens sometimes.
Criteriums were always pretty easy for me; I figured that if someone else
could take that particular line, so could I. Never a big issue with nerves.
But there's something else going on when descending. Maybe there's too much
time to think? Sometimes it seems like you're totally on, and others, you
could swear your bike's handling screwy from a flat tire, but it's not.
If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is. Maybe
just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to work
through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd like him to have fun, but
wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
did growing up.
Thanks-
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 25 Jan 2007 12:59:11
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Mike Jacoubowsky <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> And a few times I'm actually having a bit of trouble keeping up with him, but
> figure no matter what, I'm riding behind him, so if he does go down, I can
> keep any cars off his back.
Ah, the places I'm usually descending [1] for any length of time usually
have at least a hundred feet of drop if I was to go off the road. I
think it does tend to make one a mite more conservative.
[1] Hurricane Ridge in Washington state.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that
no conclusion can be drawn from them."
(By Joseph L. Brothers, Linux/PowerPC Project)
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 07:17:16
From: qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I'm heading down 84 (above Woodside, California) with my 14-year-old son
> today; he's got maybe 500 (or less) road miles under his belt, while I've
> got... geez, I dunno, but over 200k anyway. And I'm watching the way he
> dives into some of the corners, and other times hanging way, way, way to the
> outside. You know, that area where you might find a bit of gravel now & then
> so you avoid it. And a few times I'm actually having a bit of trouble
> keeping up with him, but figure no matter what, I'm riding behind him, so if
> he does go down, I can keep any cars off his back.
>
> He's taking different lines than I would, essentially testing the adhesion
> of his tires in ways that I wouldn't. But he's doing so because, well, he
> just doesn't know any better, because he hasn't become one with the pavement
> yet. At least that's what I'm rationalizing. And yet I'm also thinking that
> maybe I've just become too conservative over the years.
>
> When I was racing, I would descend better for several months *after* a
> crash, because there was that reassurance that hey, you survived it, no
> biggie, things happen sometimes, don't sweat it too much. But then when I'd
> go for a long period of time without hitting the pavement, I'd actually
> start losing my nerve a bit and descend more slowly, thinking it was
> something to be avoided at all costs, rather than, well, just one of those
> things that happens sometimes.
>
> Criteriums were always pretty easy for me; I figured that if someone else
> could take that particular line, so could I. Never a big issue with nerves.
> But there's something else going on when descending. Maybe there's too much
> time to think? Sometimes it seems like you're totally on, and others, you
> could swear your bike's handling screwy from a flat tire, but it's not.
>
> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is. Maybe
> just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to work
> through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd like him to have fun, but
> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
> did growing up.
>
> Thanks-
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Remember, the older we get, the ster our kids get. He won't listen
until he augers in a few times, then it will be HIS idea...
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 04:10:47
From: Mike McGuire
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I'm heading down 84 (above Woodside, California) with my 14-year-old son
> today; he's got maybe 500 (or less) road miles under his belt, while I've
> got... geez, I dunno, but over 200k anyway. And I'm watching the way he
> dives into some of the corners, and other times hanging way, way, way to the
> outside. You know, that area where you might find a bit of gravel now & then
> so you avoid it. And a few times I'm actually having a bit of trouble
> keeping up with him, but figure no matter what, I'm riding behind him, so if
> he does go down, I can keep any cars off his back.
> ... >
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
Has he spent a lot of time on a skateboard? If so, he might have some
moves and sensibilities that are out of your experience.
Mike
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 06:51:35
From: nash
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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"Mike McGuire" <mmcgr100@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:bVfth.14250$w91.3077@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> I'm heading down 84 (above Woodside, California) with my 14-year-old son
>> today; he's got maybe 500 (or less) road miles under his belt, while I've
>> got... geez, I dunno, but over 200k anyway. And I'm watching the way he
>> dives into some of the corners, and other times hanging way, way, way to
>> the outside. You know, that area where you might find a bit of gravel now
>> & then so you avoid it. And a few times I'm actually having a bit of
>> trouble keeping up with him, but figure no matter what, I'm riding behind
>> him, so if he does go down, I can keep any cars off his back.
>> ... >
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
> Has he spent a lot of time on a skateboard? If so, he might have some
> moves and sensibilities that are out of your experience.
>
> Mike
Could he being using the giro effect to gain speed?
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 19:38:51
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:55:05 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> He also has just a bit too much fun "swooping" into and out of corners,
> instead of taking the most-direct line (when available), which will
> generally be safer.
I wondered what sort of lines he was following. Tell him that not only
will following the most-direct line be safer, it will be faster. Scratch
that, _only_ tell him that it will be faster. Get him to go from the
outside edge (of his lane) to the inside at the middle of the turn, then
back to the outside at the end.
--
David L. Johnson
When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that
your initial objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 19:35:32
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:48:52 +0000, k wrote:
> I've followed some of the helmet threads over on uk.rec.cycling, and
> I've read some pretty interesting thoughts about the pros and cons of
> protecting kids too much from their own recklessness. A number of people
> over there have suggested that children who are too sheltered and
> protected all their lives never learn to evaluate dangerous situations
> properly, and never learn to consider the consequences before attempting
> something dangerous. A few hard knocks and a little road rash early in
> the game, it seems, can prevent much worse injuries later on in life.
I agree, Daughter #2 learned very well that the world was dangerous, but
never seemed to learn to accept some level of danger that is necessary to
go out and do anything. So, she is afraid not only of riding a bike, but
of driving or basically any activity out of doors. This is not good for
her, not in terms of getting hurt, but in integrating into the world.
--
David L. Johnson
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on
no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 00:48:52
From: mark
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I'm heading down 84 (above Woodside, California) with my 14-year-old son
> today; he's got maybe 500 (or less) road miles under his belt, while I've
> got... geez, I dunno, but over 200k anyway. And I'm watching the way he
> dives into some of the corners, and other times hanging way, way, way to the
> outside. You know, that area where you might find a bit of gravel now & then
> so you avoid it. And a few times I'm actually having a bit of trouble
> keeping up with him, but figure no matter what, I'm riding behind him, so if
> he does go down, I can keep any cars off his back.
>
> He's taking different lines than I would, essentially testing the adhesion
> of his tires in ways that I wouldn't. But he's doing so because, well, he
> just doesn't know any better, because he hasn't become one with the pavement
> yet. At least that's what I'm rationalizing. And yet I'm also thinking that
> maybe I've just become too conservative over the years.
>
> When I was racing, I would descend better for several months *after* a
> crash, because there was that reassurance that hey, you survived it, no
> biggie, things happen sometimes, don't sweat it too much. But then when I'd
> go for a long period of time without hitting the pavement, I'd actually
> start losing my nerve a bit and descend more slowly, thinking it was
> something to be avoided at all costs, rather than, well, just one of those
> things that happens sometimes.
>
> Criteriums were always pretty easy for me; I figured that if someone else
> could take that particular line, so could I. Never a big issue with nerves.
> But there's something else going on when descending. Maybe there's too much
> time to think? Sometimes it seems like you're totally on, and others, you
> could swear your bike's handling screwy from a flat tire, but it's not.
>
> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is. Maybe
> just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to work
> through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd like him to have fun, but
> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
> did growing up.
>
> Thanks-
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
>
Back in my ski instructor days they told me that kids learn physical
skills holistically, grasping the entire concept at once instead of
analyzing a concept and breaking it down into discrete steps. Combine
this with the usual adolescent sense of immortality, and the certain
knowledge that Dad can't possibly know anything worth knowing, and your
son's behavior doesn't seem too surprising. Sounds like taking him out
and watching his back while he discovers how to descend on his own is a
great way for him to learn, even if it is a little rough on Dad's nerves.
I've followed some of the helmet threads over on uk.rec.cycling, and
I've read some pretty interesting thoughts about the pros and cons of
protecting kids too much from their own recklessness. A number of people
over there have suggested that children who are too sheltered and
protected all their lives never learn to evaluate dangerous situations
properly, and never learn to consider the consequences before attempting
something dangerous. A few hard knocks and a little road rash early in
the game, it seems, can prevent much worse injuries later on in life.
k
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 10:13:58
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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k wrote:
:: Back in my ski instructor days they told me that kids learn physical
:: skills holistically, grasping the entire concept at once instead of
:: analyzing a concept and breaking it down into discrete steps. Combine
:: this with the usual adolescent sense of immortality, and the certain
:: knowledge that Dad can't possibly know anything worth knowing, and
:: your son's behavior doesn't seem too surprising. Sounds like taking
:: him out and watching his back while he discovers how to descend on
:: his own is a great way for him to learn, even if it is a little
:: rough on Dad's nerves.
::
:: I've followed some of the helmet threads over on uk.rec.cycling, and
:: I've read some pretty interesting thoughts about the pros and cons of
:: protecting kids too much from their own recklessness. A number of
:: people over there have suggested that children who are too sheltered
:: and protected all their lives never learn to evaluate dangerous
:: situations properly, and never learn to consider the consequences
:: before attempting something dangerous. A few hard knocks and a
:: little road rash early in the game, it seems, can prevent much worse
:: injuries later on in life.
I agree. Also, fill your/his bookselves with cycling books/videos and let
him read/watch as he sees fit. Kids either gravitate toward this stuff or
not, but forcing it is unlikely.
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 09:03:00
From:
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ... Keep him from having a dumb crash or getting hit by a
> car and the rest is just details.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about him sliding out
from excessive speed. The thing you should worry
about, at the risk of sounding grave, is his riding too
fast to stay in his lane and hitting a car head-on in
a blind curve. Explain to him how that has happened,
could happen to him, and the rest he'll have to find
out on his own.
You might also mention how his helmet, if he wears one,
is rated for a 14 mile-per-hour impact.
Robert
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 18:06:55
From: nash
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Hi
A TV show where the cop mom was teaching her son/daughter what happens when
people use guns by making her/him look at a shooting victim in the hospital.
You might want to tell him what happens in courts when it is not your
fault but you die any way and nobody really cares about making the driver
pay be society is auto centric and that will not change any time soon. Find
good statistics about helmutted accidents and survival. You do not want
your head handed to you when your helmut works but your safe riding did not.
Do not race on the road. Sidewalk is okay if safer. Stay out of heavy
traffic.
In fact do not even ride the road on a main road until you are an adult.
I get treated like I am just a kid on a bike when riding at times and I have
been riding 45 years. They treat you like you are invisible.
Biking is suppose to be for your health and spirit. Make it a long one.
Regards
SN
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 08:57:37
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
{snip current sit.}
> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is.
> Maybe just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and
> trying to work through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd
> like him to have fun, but wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits
> without losing as much skin as I did growing up.
How about leading out and let him follow your line(s)?
He'll be spanking you soon enough; might as well keep him humble a /little/
longer! :)
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 21:55:05
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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> How about leading out and let him follow your line(s)?
>
> He'll be spanking you soon enough; might as well keep him humble a
> /little/ longer! :)
If it's not busy, I don't mind doing that. But for now, it's best that I can
actually see what he's doing, and keep cars off his back. And what he's
doing is generally very good, from what I can see. He doesn't rattle easily
at all, which is a distinct improvement from when we started. He just
doesn't have enough respect for painted lines nor an instinctive feel for
where there might be gravel.
He also has just a bit too much fun "swooping" into and out of corners,
instead of taking the most-direct line (when available), which will
generally be safer.
Realistically, some of it is simply target fixation. Right now, he's
concentrating on the world immediately in front of him, instead of where he
wants to be. That's a tough one to get around, and, while bad on a bicycle,
deadly on a motorcycle.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote in message
news:45b4ed02$0$16720$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> {snip current sit.}
>
>> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is.
>> Maybe just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and
>> trying to work through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd
>> like him to have fun, but wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits
>> without losing as much skin as I did growing up.
>
> How about leading out and let him follow your line(s)?
>
> He'll be spanking you soon enough; might as well keep him humble a
> /little/ longer! :)
>
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 08:22:14
From:
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>.... I'd like him to have fun, but
> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
> did growing up.
>
> Thanks-
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Eric Zabel addresses descending in Hell on Wheels by saying something
to the effect that as you get older you get softer and realize
descending fast is maybe not so st.
Riding a bike is not the only subject that will make you feel this
way... I agree with the prior post about concentrating on the most
important lessons to try to keep him safe. The rest is his to learn
and yours to worry about. Fourteen - the fun is just beginning!
Wayne
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 09:04:06
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
:: If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is.
:: Maybe just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and
:: trying to work through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd
:: like him to have fun, but wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits
:: without losing as much skin as I did growing up.
IMO:
Don't rob him of the experience of learning. Let him learn as you did.
You're not him, you have other reasons that he doesn't have to worry about
going down on a descent.
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Date: 23 Jan 2007 08:52:32
From: Pat Lamb
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
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Roger Zoul wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> :: If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is.
> :: Maybe just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and
> :: trying to work through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd
> :: like him to have fun, but wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits
> :: without losing as much skin as I did growing up.
>
> IMO:
>
> Don't rob him of the experience of learning. Let him learn as you did.
> You're not him, you have other reasons that he doesn't have to worry about
> going down on a descent.
I'd agree, but still, do mention the worst dangers: slick paint, trash
on the edges of the road, and oncoming traffic.
Pat
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 01:54:55
From:
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is. Maybe
> just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to work
> through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd like him to have fun, but
> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
> did growing up.
>
Would that all things in life you would like to impart your experience
to him about were as cut and dried as descending!
My guess is that he will listen to you about as much as he listens to
you on other topics, so the key is to decide what it is you want to
make sure he knows, and focus on that. Pick your battles in a way.
Maybe focus on teaching him to not be stupid and to think ahead and
forget about any fine techniques which he will probably figure out for
himself anyway. Keep him from having a dumb crash or getting hit by a
car and the rest is just details.
As a friend of mine once said, the secret to happiness in life is to
follow a few very basic rules. In his opinion trying to be more
specific is a waste of time. Here are the rules:
Don't rob a bank.
Don't ry a hooker.
Don't get a tatoo on your neck.
Have fun!
Joseph
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:23:46
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
> As a friend of mine once said, the secret to happiness in life is to
> follow a few very basic rules. In his opinion trying to be more
> specific is a waste of time. Here are the rules:
>
> Don't rob a bank.
> Don't ry a hooker.
> Don't get a tatoo on your neck.
Hmm. I thought the three most-important things were what Homer had to tell
Bart before he thought he was going to die-
"Good idea, Boss"
"Cover for me"
"It was that way when I found it"
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1169459695.727785.102020@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is.
>> Maybe
>> just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to
>> work
>> through what to teach my kid about descending. I'd like him to have fun,
>> but
>> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as
>> I
>> did growing up.
>>
>
> Would that all things in life you would like to impart your experience
> to him about were as cut and dried as descending!
>
> My guess is that he will listen to you about as much as he listens to
> you on other topics, so the key is to decide what it is you want to
> make sure he knows, and focus on that. Pick your battles in a way.
> Maybe focus on teaching him to not be stupid and to think ahead and
> forget about any fine techniques which he will probably figure out for
> himself anyway. Keep him from having a dumb crash or getting hit by a
> car and the rest is just details.
>
> As a friend of mine once said, the secret to happiness in life is to
> follow a few very basic rules. In his opinion trying to be more
> specific is a waste of time. Here are the rules:
>
> Don't rob a bank.
> Don't ry a hooker.
> Don't get a tatoo on your neck.
>
> Have fun!
>
> Joseph
>
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Date: 21 Jan 2007 21:52:15
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
In article <PdVsh.12240$ji1.11378@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > writes:
> If I've got a question here, I haven't quite figured out what it is. Maybe
> just looking for what others have experienced themselves, and trying to work
> through what to teach my kid about descending.
You've had a lot of time in which to ingrain habits.
When playing Texas Hold 'Em, I'll fold on a freshly-dealt
pocket with a low-number/high-number spread (unless maybe
there's an ace in there.) Ain't much I can do with one
of those, and no there's no sense throwin' good money after
bad. That's my habit. But apparently other people can make
it work for them.
Everybody's got a personal style.
> I'd like him to have fun, but
> wouldn't mind if he could learn the limits without losing as much skin as I
> did growing up.
What a mother hen :-) Hey, you're still here to]
talk about it, after all.
http://members.tripod.com/geert_pc/slang.htm
"bagwell -- A region of debris at the intersection of two roads.
The debris is swept into a triangular shape by vehicles going
ahead, across, and turning right. Bagwells are a hazard to Roadies,
but are often mined by Freds for tools, coins, hardware, small parts,
and recyclable materials. Bagwells are named after Bryan Bagwell,
the Arizona, USA bicyclist and philosopher who first studied and
classified them."
With our local current snow melt-down, there are a lot
of snow bagwells around.
Actually, there's still a lot of leaf bagwells around,
'cuz the City didn't get around to cleaning those off
the streets back in November.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 07:07:21
From: nash
Subject: Re: Can a newbie teach things about descending?
|
> http://members.tripod.com/geert_pc/slang.htm
>
> "bagwell -- A region of debris at the intersection of two roads.
> The debris is swept into a triangular shape by vehicles going
> ahead, across, and turning right. Bagwells are a hazard to Roadies,
> but are often mined by Freds for tools, coins, hardware, small parts,
> and recyclable materials. Bagwells are named after Bryan Bagwell,
> the Arizona, USA bicyclist and philosopher who first studied and
> classified them."
>
> With our local current snow melt-down, there are a lot
> of snow bagwells around.
>
> Actually, there's still a lot of leaf bagwells around,
> 'cuz the City didn't get around to cleaning those off
> the streets back in November.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
Funny you should mention that cause the OP made me think to the one time I
fell when I was a newish rider(around gr. 2 to 4)and that is what I slipped
on.
Been successfully riding without falling since then until I tried out spds.
I am an expert now. Never get hurt, just kind of slow motion fall on my
forearm like ballet. My first one ever gave me road rash. Ouch.
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