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Date: 25 Oct 2007 23:54:08
From: Artemisia
Subject: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
without having to own them.
http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
EFR
Ile de France (for example)
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 07:15:54
From: Adam Lea
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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> Hurricanes typically hit the same geographic regions.
True, but for any individual point on a coastline the chances of being
affected by the hurricanes core is very small. On average there are
two hurricane strikes on the US in a year, and this is for the whole
US coast from the Mexico border to Canada. A hurricanes damaging winds
are typically confined to within 100km of the center, moreover it is
the intense hurricanes (winds over 110mph) that cause around 85% of
the damage, of which in the Atlantic there are only three per year on
average (that is total numbers, not landfalling). Thus for an
individual coastal city, the chances of it being devestated are very
small.
Having said that I do agree that if people choose to live in an area
that is affected by natural disasters then they should accept some
responsibility for that increased risk, either by sturdy construction
to mitigate the effects or higher insurance premiums.
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 04:38:31
From: Adam Lea
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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On 3 Nov, 00:31, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com > wrote:
> John Kane wrote:
> > ...
> > Re California though, the fires are a yearly occurance apparently so
> > the infrastructure to respond was there, even if it was not really set
> > up to handle the 100 year fire (which now seem to be coming very 10
> > years). Our news even pointed out that one or two of the Quebec water
> > bombers have an annual pilgramige to California for the fire season
> > there.
>
> If the fires are a yearly occurrence, people that live in those areas
> should not get repeated government assistance. Why should the rest of us
> pay over and over for bad choices?
>
Because most of the time the first are much smaller scale and affect a
much more sparsely populated area. Like comparing the 1987 or Burns
Day storms to an average winter gale in the UK.
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 04:34:17
From: Adam Lea
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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On 3 Nov, 11:06, Artemisia <nos...@free.fr > wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
> > Ditto earthquakes, tornadoes hurricanes, ice. That's a pretty large
> > chunk of the USA you have excluded from habitation there ;-)
>
> Plus the frequency of all that is exponentiating with global warming, so
> what was true about safety when an area was settled, even just a few
> years ago, is no longer true and will be even less so in the future.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France
Well the first two there is no evidence at all for any link with
global warming. Hurricanes - the jury is still out with often heated
debates within the scientific community.
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:30:43
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Adam Lea wrote:
> On 3 Nov, 11:06, Artemisia <nos...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Tony Raven wrote:
>>> Ditto earthquakes, tornadoes hurricanes, ice. That's a pretty large
>>> chunk of the USA you have excluded from habitation there ;-)
>>
>> Plus the frequency of all that is exponentiating with global
>> warming, so what was true about safety when an area was settled,
>> even just a few years ago, is no longer true and will be even less
>> so in the future.
>>
>> EFR
>> Ile de France
>
> Well the first two there is no evidence at all for any link with
> global warming. Hurricanes - the jury is still out with often heated
> debates within the scientific community.
Don't let facts interfere with the template!!!
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 09:53:51
From: John Kane
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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On Nov 1, 12:47 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me > wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Adam Lea wrote:
> >> On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> >>>>> need to escape a hurricane.
> >>>> Which country do you live in?
> >>> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
> >>> in the car when required.
>
> >> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there
> >> facilities provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I
> >> would imagine that even in the US, there will be some people without
> >> a car.
> > New Orleans 2005, Hurricane Katrina. The people with cars left, the
> > poor without cars were left to sit on rooftops or rot in the hell of
> > the Superdome, or drown. Those that were black and tried to walk out
> > across a bridge to a primarily white community were repulsed by armed
> > police.
>
> Everyone knew well in advance that a huge (HUGE) storm was coming, yet
> hundreds of school busses sat idle on a huge (later flooded) lot.
>
> When the hurricane hit, everyone /thought/ that the worst had been avoided.
> Partying on Bourbon Street continued unabated. Everyone (even the media)
> let down their guard.
>
> Then a day or two later the levies broke, and all hell broke loose.
>
> Compare that to the totally unexpected fires that swept So Cal last week.
> Literally no warning in many cases. The difference? Effective local and
> state government agencies and officials, and citizens taking responsibility
> for their own (and others') well-being.
>
> There you go.
>
> BS (not)
I always wondered why the local/state/federal government didn't just
grab the yellow buses and start moving people. It seemed like a real
no-brainer.
Re California though, the fires are a yearly occurance apparently so
the infrastructure to respond was there, even if it was not really set
up to handle the 100 year fire (which now seem to be coming very 10
years). Our news even pointed out that one or two of the Quebec water
bombers have an annual pilgramige to California for the fire season
there.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 19:31:26
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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John Kane wrote:
> ...
> Re California though, the fires are a yearly occurance apparently so
> the infrastructure to respond was there, even if it was not really set
> up to handle the 100 year fire (which now seem to be coming very 10
> years). Our news even pointed out that one or two of the Quebec water
> bombers have an annual pilgramige to California for the fire season
> there.
If the fires are a yearly occurrence, people that live in those areas
should not get repeated government assistance. Why should the rest of us
pay over and over for bad choices?
It is bad enough that California steals water from the Colorado River so
more people can have focking grass lawn in a desert.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 09:12:47
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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In article <fggfe6$dil$1@registered.motzarella.org >, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>
> If the fires are a yearly occurrence, people that live in those areas
> should not get repeated government assistance. Why should the rest of us
> pay over and over for bad choices?
>
Ditto earthquakes, tornadoes hurricanes, ice. That's a pretty large
chunk of the USA you have excluded from habitation there ;-)
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 06:43:29
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Tony Raven wrote:
> In article <fggfe6$dil$1@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
> @REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>> If the fires are a yearly occurrence, people that live in those areas
>> should not get repeated government assistance. Why should the rest of us
>> pay over and over for bad choices?
>>
>
> Ditto earthquakes, tornadoes hurricanes, ice. That's a pretty large
> chunk of the USA you have excluded from habitation there ;-)
>
Tornadoes and ice storms only strike relatively small areas and are
infrequent events. If a town hit by a tornado is not expected to have
the event occur again for 10,000+ years, why not rebuild?
However, if fires, flooding, damaging winds, etc. occur at return
periods that are significantly less than the design life of the
improvements, rebuilding with government assistance should not occur
unless the improvements can be designed to resist these forces.
If you are going to build a house in an area with frequent forest fires,
maintain sufficient clear space around it, and use fire resistant
construction such as reinforced concrete walls and pre-cast concrete
plank roofs. Building wood frame house in close proximity to trees in an
area prone to dry season forest fires is just stupid.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 12:21:17
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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In article <fghmpl$ii5$1@registered.motzarella.org >, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>
> Tornadoes and ice storms only strike relatively small areas and are
> infrequent events. If a town hit by a tornado is not expected to have
> the event occur again for 10,000+ years, why not rebuild?
>
How many of the sites burnt out in the recent fires have been burnt out
before and rebuilt? What is the chance of fires hitting the exact same
spot again in 10,000 years. With millions of homes in the affected
regions and hundreds of homes destroyed I make the odds about one in ten
thousand years.
> However, if fires, flooding, damaging winds, etc. occur at return
> periods that are significantly less than the design life of the
> improvements, rebuilding with government assistance should not occur
> unless the improvements can be designed to resist these forces.
>
Hurricanes, earthquakes, river floods, tornadoes, lightning... How
often do they strike twice in the same place?
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:58:45
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Tony Raven wrote:
> In article <fghmpl$ii5$1@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
> @REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>> Tornadoes and ice storms only strike relatively small areas and are
>> infrequent events. If a town hit by a tornado is not expected to have
>> the event occur again for 10,000+ years, why not rebuild?
>>
>
> How many of the sites burnt out in the recent fires have been burnt out
> before and rebuilt? What is the chance of fires hitting the exact same
> spot again in 10,000 years. With millions of homes in the affected
> regions and hundreds of homes destroyed I make the odds about one in ten
> thousand years.
>
>> However, if fires, flooding, damaging winds, etc. occur at return
>> periods that are significantly less than the design life of the
>> improvements, rebuilding with government assistance should not occur
>> unless the improvements can be designed to resist these forces.
>>
>
> Hurricanes, earthquakes, river floods, tornadoes, lightning... How
> often do they strike twice in the same place?
Hurricanes typically hit the same geographic regions. The probability of
earthquake frequency and magnitude for a given location has been well
defined in the US. Flooding is also very predictable, and this
information is readily available. In contrast, tornadoes and lightning
are random and unpredictable events. Tornadoes rarely strike in the same
place twice, and lightning is easily dealt with concerning structure
protection.
Why should those of us who choose sensible places to live subsidize
those who make foolish choices? Smacks of nanny state government socialism!
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:33:04
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Tom Sherman wrote:
> Why should those of us who choose sensible places to live subsidize
> those who make foolish choices? Smacks of nanny state government
> socialism!
So don't vote for Hillary. Seriously.
Bill "something's not adding up here" S.
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 14:59:56
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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In article <fghun8$g70$1@registered.motzarella.org >, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>
> Hurricanes typically hit the same geographic regions.
So do tornadoes if you look at a map of their frequencies in USA.
> The probability of
> earthquake frequency and magnitude for a given location has been well
> defined in the US.
> Flooding is also very predictable, and this
> information is readily available.
And is much influenced these days by man made intervention. But the
1993 floods were unprecedented and unpredicted and the major US floods
of the 20th Century are scattered randomly across the map and cover most
areas with a river running through.
http://ks.water.usgs.gov/Kansas/pubs/fact-sheets/fs.024-00.usa_map.gif
> In contrast, tornadoes and lightning
> are random and unpredictable events. Tornadoes rarely strike in the same
> place twice, and lightning is easily dealt with concerning structure
> protection.
>
> Why should those of us who choose sensible places to live subsidize
> those who make foolish choices? Smacks of nanny state government socialism!
>
Where is a sensible place to live in the US that does not suffer from
some form of natural disaster?
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 10:10:54
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tony Raven wrote:
> In article <fghun8$g70$1@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
> @REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
>> Hurricanes typically hit the same geographic regions.
>
> So do tornadoes if you look at a map of their frequencies in USA.
But tornadoes affect a very small area. Avoiding building areas with
tornadoes would be like avoiding cycling in the western US because some
cyclists are killed by mountain lions. The occurrences are so rare that
it is not a major effect on the resources of society to rebuild.
Hurricanes damage a much wider area. However, with hurricanes, the
damage can be mostly averted with proper building siting and
construction. Paying for rebuilding without meeting basic precautions to
minimize damage is stupid.
>> The probability of
>> earthquake frequency and magnitude for a given location has been well
>> defined in the US.
>
>> Flooding is also very predictable, and this
>> information is readily available.
>
> And is much influenced these days by man made intervention. But the
> 1993 floods were unprecedented and unpredicted and the major US floods
> of the 20th Century are scattered randomly across the map and cover most
> areas with a river running through.
> http://ks.water.usgs.gov/Kansas/pubs/fact-sheets/fs.024-00.usa_map.gif
Do not build in a floodplain with a less than 500 year return period,
and if you do, do not expect others to pay for your mistake.
>> In contrast, tornadoes and lightning
>> are random and unpredictable events. Tornadoes rarely strike in the same
>> place twice, and lightning is easily dealt with concerning structure
>> protection.
>>
>> Why should those of us who choose sensible places to live subsidize
>> those who make foolish choices? Smacks of nanny state government socialism!
>>
>
> Where is a sensible place to live in the US that does not suffer from
> some form of natural disaster?
No place is, of course, completely safe. However, concentrating a large
number of people in a place with frequent earthquakes, fires and little
natural fresh water (e.g. California) and expecting the rest of us to
pay for this mistake is immoral government.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 16:43:25
From: Marc Brett
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:10:54 -0500, Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com > wrote:
>Tony Raven wrote:
>>
>> Where is a sensible place to live in the US that does not suffer from
>> some form of natural disaster?
Follow the survivalist fringe groups. They love places like Idaho
because of their distance from hurricane/tornado/earthquake hot spots,
not to mention the excellent supply of local potatoes.
>No place is, of course, completely safe. However, concentrating a large
>number of people in a place with frequent earthquakes, fires and little
>natural fresh water (e.g. California) and expecting the rest of us to
>pay for this mistake is immoral government.
Yebbut those neo-nazis in Idaho still expect port cities like San
Francisco to stay open so they can import their cheap Chinese-made
AK-47s. Damn the earthquakes which'll hit those left-coast liberals --
live free or die! How immoral is that?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 19:48:43
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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In article <mj8pi3hkrs9h1h05nk2paeea3o59km97rt@4ax.com >,
usenet@fordson.demon.co.uk says...
>
> >Tony Raven wrote:
> >>
> >> Where is a sensible place to live in the US that does not suffer from
> >> some form of natural disaster?
>
> Follow the survivalist fringe groups. They love places like Idaho
> because of their distance from hurricane/tornado/earthquake hot spots,
> not to mention the excellent supply of local potatoes.
>
The Great Fire of 1910 and the flood of 1996 both hit Idaho.
>
> Yebbut those neo-nazis in Idaho still expect port cities like San
> Francisco to stay open so they can import their cheap Chinese-made
> AK-47s. Damn the earthquakes which'll hit those left-coast liberals --
> live free or die! How immoral is that?
>
They don't do irony in Leftpondia
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 16:25:19
From: Artemisia
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> No place is, of course, completely safe. However, concentrating a large
> number of people in a place with frequent earthquakes, fires and little
> natural fresh water (e.g. California) and expecting the rest of us to
> pay for this mistake is immoral government.
California is also, on its own, the 6th largest economy in the world. So
who's paying who for what?
EFR
Ile de France
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 10:43:38
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
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Artemisia aka Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>> No place is, of course, completely safe. However, concentrating a
>> large number of people in a place with frequent earthquakes, fires and
>> little natural fresh water (e.g. California) and expecting the rest of
>> us to pay for this mistake is immoral government.
>
> California is also, on its own, the 6th largest economy in the world. So
> who's paying who for what?
Is not the economy of California large because the number of people that
live there? Would so many people live there if they did not receive
water from other states and disaster aid part in part by residents of
other states?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 09:01:43
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Artemisia aka Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> No place is, of course, completely safe. However, concentrating a
>>> large number of people in a place with frequent earthquakes, fires
>>> and little natural fresh water (e.g. California) and expecting the
>>> rest of us to pay for this mistake is immoral government.
>>
>> California is also, on its own, the 6th largest economy in the
>> world. So who's paying who for what?
>
> Is not the economy of California large because the number of people
> that live there? Would so many people live there if they did not
> receive water from other states and disaster aid part in part by
> residents of other states?
When are you (other states) gonna pitch in for our (CA's) astronomical costs
associated with illegal immigration?
I actually agree with most of your (surprising) sentiments thoughout this.
Only thing is, if, say, a Republican said what you did about the government
not helping people who build in fire/hurricane/flood zones, he or she would
be quickly labeled (libeled) a racist and a bigot in short order. (Hell, I
got called that just for saying that LOCAL goverment blew it in NOLA before
the Feds even had a role.)
As a firm believer in FREE MARKET FORCES, I think that people and insurance
companies (regulated, of course) can work this stuff out better than more
government. You won't build a house if no one will insure it; or if you do,
you assume the risk.
Most Federal aid, I think, is more "helping hand-ish" (low-cost loans,
waived fees, etc.) than hand-out -- except of course for the billions
associated with a certain hurricane. That became "our" fault because all
the money we'd spent previously to build levees and other infrastructure was
squandered by localized incompetence and corruption. THOSE people are long
gone from the scene(s), and now there's more cash to waste. (Again, just
compare Mississppi to LA.)
BS
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 12:06:47
From: Artemisia
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tony Raven wrote:
> Ditto earthquakes, tornadoes hurricanes, ice. That's a pretty large
> chunk of the USA you have excluded from habitation there ;-)
Plus the frequency of all that is exponentiating with global warming, so
what was true about safety when an area was settled, even just a few
years ago, is no longer true and will be even less so in the future.
EFR
Ile de France
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 20:46:25
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> John Kane wrote:
>> ...
>> Re California though, the fires are a yearly occurance apparently so
>> the infrastructure to respond was there, even if it was not really
>> set up to handle the 100 year fire (which now seem to be coming very
>> 10 years). Our news even pointed out that one or two of the Quebec
>> water bombers have an annual pilgramige to California for the fire
>> season there.
>
> If the fires are a yearly occurrence, people that live in those areas
> should not get repeated government assistance. Why should the rest of
> us pay over and over for bad choices?
But building homes below sea level is somehow OK? (And yes, hurricanes are
MORE regular occurrences than wild fires.)
> It is bad enough that California steals water from the Colorado River
> so more people can have focking grass lawn in a desert.
Someone should report that theft. LOL
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 18:12:36
From: marc
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
John Kane wrote:
> On Nov 1, 12:47 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Adam Lea wrote:
>>>> On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>>>>>>> need to escape a hurricane.
>>>>>> Which country do you live in?
>>>>> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
>>>>> in the car when required.
>>>> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there
>>>> facilities provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I
>>>> would imagine that even in the US, there will be some people without
>>>> a car.
>>> New Orleans 2005, Hurricane Katrina. The people with cars left, the
>>> poor without cars were left to sit on rooftops or rot in the hell of
>>> the Superdome, or drown. Those that were black and tried to walk out
>>> across a bridge to a primarily white community were repulsed by armed
>>> police.
>> Everyone knew well in advance that a huge (HUGE) storm was coming, yet
>> hundreds of school busses sat idle on a huge (later flooded) lot.
>>
>> When the hurricane hit, everyone /thought/ that the worst had been avoided.
>> Partying on Bourbon Street continued unabated. Everyone (even the media)
>> let down their guard.
>>
>> Then a day or two later the levies broke, and all hell broke loose.
>>
>> Compare that to the totally unexpected fires that swept So Cal last week.
>> Literally no warning in many cases. The difference? Effective local and
>> state government agencies and officials, and citizens taking responsibility
>> for their own (and others') well-being.
>>
>> There you go.
>>
>> BS (not)
>
> I always wondered why the local/state/federal government didn't just
> grab the yellow buses and start moving people. It seemed like a real
> no-brainer.
Who pays?
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 10:17:19
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
John Kane wrote:
> On Nov 1, 12:47 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Adam Lea wrote:
>>>> On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>>>>>>> need to escape a hurricane.
>>>>>> Which country do you live in?
>>>>> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be
>>>>> thrown in the car when required.
>>
>>>> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there
>>>> facilities provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I
>>>> would imagine that even in the US, there will be some people
>>>> without a car.
>>> New Orleans 2005, Hurricane Katrina. The people with cars left, the
>>> poor without cars were left to sit on rooftops or rot in the hell of
>>> the Superdome, or drown. Those that were black and tried to walk out
>>> across a bridge to a primarily white community were repulsed by
>>> armed police.
>>
>> Everyone knew well in advance that a huge (HUGE) storm was coming,
>> yet hundreds of school busses sat idle on a huge (later flooded) lot.
>>
>> When the hurricane hit, everyone /thought/ that the worst had been
>> avoided. Partying on Bourbon Street continued unabated. Everyone
>> (even the media) let down their guard.
>>
>> Then a day or two later the levies broke, and all hell broke loose.
>>
>> Compare that to the totally unexpected fires that swept So Cal last
>> week. Literally no warning in many cases. The difference?
>> Effective local and state government agencies and officials, and
>> citizens taking responsibility for their own (and others')
>> well-being.
>>
>> There you go.
>>
>> BS (not)
>
> I always wondered why the local/state/federal government didn't just
> grab the yellow buses and start moving people. It seemed like a real
> no-brainer.
>
> Re California though, the fires are a yearly occurance apparently so
> the infrastructure to respond was there, even if it was not really set
> up to handle the 100 year fire (which now seem to be coming very 10
> years). Our news even pointed out that one or two of the Quebec water
> bombers have an annual pilgramige to California for the fire season
> there.
Absolutely correct. Just like the annual hurricane season in the southeast.
(Hell, look at how Mississippi has recovered from Katrina, versus Louisiana
in general and NOLA in particular.)
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 21:02:45
From: Jym Dyer
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
> Today I saw a bus with the ZipCar advertising placard on its
> side. Above the windows is written five ways you can use a
> ZipCar. One item was "Go Shopping" but my mind went blank and
> I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use their car
> to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
=v= I had a similar reaction once. Part of the celebration
of World Carfree Day last year was a Carfree Party! featuring
Carfree Dance Music! from a Carfree DJ! at which they would be
raffling off a Carfree Car-Sharing Service Membership!
=v= Uh ... what?
=v= Also, the San Francisco Bay Area has these things called
"Spare The Air Days." It's a total scam, designed to dodge
Federal air quality regulations, but the basic idea is to
get people not to drive. So naturally that's a day when
ZipCar sent out a bunch of their cars into the streets to
promote themselves. :-
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 20:58:05
From: Jym Dyer
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
> does look a intresting idea, i don't think i would get much
> use out of it, (most of my car use is long distance travel)
=v= My car use is so infrequent that this type of rental makes
more sense than a car-share system, which works by fees, etc.,
thereby supporting more frequent car use.
=v= Which is also contrary to its ecohype.
<_Jym_ >
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 11:10:21
From: Roger Merriman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org > wrote:
> > does look a intresting idea, i don't think i would get much
> > use out of it, (most of my car use is long distance travel)
>
> =v= My car use is so infrequent that this type of rental makes
> more sense than a car-share system, which works by fees, etc.,
> thereby supporting more frequent car use.
>
> =v= Which is also contrary to its ecohype.
> <_Jym_>
yes there is that, but like a lot things you have to use the system that
works for you.
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 20:55:37
From: Jym Dyer
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
> Keenness for green issues probably helps - the Green party
> run the town council, the mayor can be seen round town on
> his bike.
=v= I know these services are eco-hyped, but are they in fact
reducing car ownership and car use? I never see them marketed
to motorists, only to people who would otherwise not be driving.
Notice, for example, that we are discussing this in cycling
groups rather than motoring groups.
=v= In San Francisco there is one such service that's propped
up both by government subsidy and the resources of various
transportation-oriented nonprofits. I'm not keen on having
dues to my local bike advocacy group going towards subsidizing
car use. I pay far more than my share for that already!
=v= Plus, people driving them act like motorists, parking in
bike lanes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jym/573916485/
and on sidewalks:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jym/702849308/
<_Jym_ >
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| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 09:34:37
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:55:37 -0700, Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org > wrote:
>
>=v= I know these services are eco-hyped, but are they in fact
>reducing car ownership and car use? I never see them marketed
>to motorists, only to people who would otherwise not be driving.
One of my friends joined a car co-op instead of buying a new car. She
sometimes needs a car for her floral business but often a van is the
more appropriate vehicle. The co-op gives her access to either and
costs her nothing when she doesn't use it. She's ended up riding her
bicycle more frequently for trips she'd previously made in her car.
She's quite happy with the arrangement. A recent trip to the airport
with out-of-town guests cost less than if they'd taken the bus.
--
zk
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| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 14:43:23
From: Arthur Clune
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In uk.rec.cycling Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org > wrote:
>
> =v= I know these services are eco-hyped, but are they in fact
> reducing car ownership and car use?
My neighbours have joined our local one and so been able to
go from two cars to one.
Arthur
--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 15:25:10
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Nov 1, 9:13 am, Artemisia <nos...@free.fr > wrote:
> Adam Lea wrote:
> > Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there facilities
> > provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I would imagine
> > that even in the US, there will be some people without a car.
>
> It's thread drift, but I've always thought that these kinds of crises
> are precisely the situations where you may be better off on a bike than
> in a car. What if there is no gas? What if the roads get gridlocked by
> traffic or broken-down cars or cut off by landslide or flood or
> earthquake? What if there is aerial bombing? I'm thinking of the
> beginning of the film LES JEUX INTERDITS where the line of refugee cars
> on the road is an easy target to be strafed from the air, or the end of
> THE DOWNFALL where the young secretary and the boy escape the flames of
> Berlin on a bike.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France
Only works if it's just you that's you're responsible for. During the
last evacuation of Houston (Rita) roads did get snarled up, most
deaths occured on the road (23 died in one bus explosion), people did
run out of gas and some died in their cars due to hyperthermia (100f
temp). But how else can one move an entire family and enough food and
water for 5 days without a car? Trust in FEMA, please!
A lot ( I mean a lot) of folks drive 4x4 pickups and suvs just because
they feel they'll need it in times of flooding (which happens at least
10 times a year) and hurricanes.
By buying a small car (small in Houston means smaller than a Hummer) I
have accepted the risks that there will be some days I can't drive
home and that one day my car will get flooded.
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| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 08:57:23
From: marc
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Marz wrote:
> On Nov 1, 9:13 am, Artemisia <nos...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Adam Lea wrote:
>>> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there facilities
>>> provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I would imagine
>>> that even in the US, there will be some people without a car.
>> It's thread drift, but I've always thought that these kinds of crises
>> are precisely the situations where you may be better off on a bike than
>> in a car. What if there is no gas? What if the roads get gridlocked by
>> traffic or broken-down cars or cut off by landslide or flood or
>> earthquake? What if there is aerial bombing? I'm thinking of the
>> beginning of the film LES JEUX INTERDITS where the line of refugee cars
>> on the road is an easy target to be strafed from the air, or the end of
>> THE DOWNFALL where the young secretary and the boy escape the flames of
>> Berlin on a bike.
>>
>> EFR
>> Ile de France
>
> Only works if it's just you that's you're responsible for. During the
> last evacuation of Houston (Rita) roads did get snarled up, most
> deaths occured on the road (23 died in one bus explosion), people did
> run out of gas and some died in their cars due to hyperthermia (100f
> temp). But how else can one move an entire family and enough food and
> water for 5 days without a car? Trust in FEMA, please!
> A lot ( I mean a lot) of folks drive 4x4 pickups and suvs just because
> they feel they'll need it in times of flooding (which happens at least
> 10 times a year) and hurricanes.
I'd move house, permanently.
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| | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 10:56:40
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In news:1cCdnaH8xMYde7faRVnyuAA@bt.com,
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
> I'd move house, permanently.
Preferably to one constructed solidly enough not to fall down when the
weather turns a bit manky. As a small Mr. Larrington I sat out a typhoon on
the fifteenth floor of a tower block. Fun, in an odd sort of way.
--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk >
Drugs are good, except when they kill you.
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 20:36:48
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <5p0e8kFp0dm6U1@mid.individual.net >,
smert.spamionam@privacy.net says...
> In news:1cCdnaH8xMYde7faRVnyuAA@bt.com,
> marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
>
> > I'd move house, permanently.
>
> Preferably to one constructed solidly enough not to fall down when the
> weather turns a bit manky. As a small Mr. Larrington I sat out a typhoon on
> the fifteenth floor of a tower block. Fun, in an odd sort of way.
>
>
My first typhoon was experienced in a 747 landing at Narita airport.
Very strange to land almost vertically because the wind speed reduced
the ground speed to a few tens of miles an hour.
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:22:43
From: Adam Lea
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> > > need to escape a hurricane.
>
> > Which country do you live in?
>
> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
> in the car when required.
Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there facilities
provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I would imagine
that even in the US, there will be some people without a car.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 15:13:37
From: Artemisia
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Adam Lea wrote:
> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there facilities
> provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I would imagine
> that even in the US, there will be some people without a car.
>
It's thread drift, but I've always thought that these kinds of crises
are precisely the situations where you may be better off on a bike than
in a car. What if there is no gas? What if the roads get gridlocked by
traffic or broken-down cars or cut off by landslide or flood or
earthquake? What if there is aerial bombing? I'm thinking of the
beginning of the film LES JEUX INTERDITS where the line of refugee cars
on the road is an easy target to be strafed from the air, or the end of
THE DOWNFALL where the young secretary and the boy escape the flames of
Berlin on a bike.
EFR
Ile de France
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 23:19:01
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Adam Lea wrote:
> On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>>>> need to escape a hurricane.
>>> Which country do you live in?
>> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
>> in the car when required.
>
> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there facilities
> provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I would imagine
> that even in the US, there will be some people without a car.
>
New Orleans 2005, Hurricane Katrina. The people with cars left, the poor
without cars were left to sit on rooftops or rot in the hell of the
Superdome, or drown. Those that were black and tried to walk out across
a bridge to a primarily white community were repulsed by armed police.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 21:47:08
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Adam Lea wrote:
>> On 31 Oct, 16:15, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>>>>> need to escape a hurricane.
>>>> Which country do you live in?
>>> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
>>> in the car when required.
>>
>> Out of interest, if a hurricane warning is issued are there
>> facilities provided to help people evacuate who don't have a car. I
>> would imagine that even in the US, there will be some people without
>> a car.
> New Orleans 2005, Hurricane Katrina. The people with cars left, the
> poor without cars were left to sit on rooftops or rot in the hell of
> the Superdome, or drown. Those that were black and tried to walk out
> across a bridge to a primarily white community were repulsed by armed
> police.
Everyone knew well in advance that a huge (HUGE) storm was coming, yet
hundreds of school busses sat idle on a huge (later flooded) lot.
When the hurricane hit, everyone /thought/ that the worst had been avoided.
Partying on Bourbon Street continued unabated. Everyone (even the media)
let down their guard.
Then a day or two later the levies broke, and all hell broke loose.
Compare that to the totally unexpected fires that swept So Cal last week.
Literally no warning in many cases. The difference? Effective local and
state government agencies and officials, and citizens taking responsibility
for their own (and others') well-being.
There you go.
BS (not)
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 17:03:57
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 31, 11:20 am, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com > wrote:
> Marz wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> >>> need to escape a hurricane.
> >> Which country do you live in?
>
> > USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
> > in the car when required.
>
> Of course, if a lot more less people used cars, then there would be a
> lot less energy spare to create hurricanes!
I sort of agree with that, but I draw my line at small car instead of
big car. I haven't got to no car instead of any car (or shared car) as
my line in the sand.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:38:51
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 29, 6:06 pm, Zoot Katz <zootk...@operamail.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:32:36 -0000, Tony Raven
>
> <j...@raven-family.invalid> wrote:
> >In article <1193661587.056016.7...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> >marzjenni...@gmail.com says...
>
> >> Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> >> suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>
> >So I take it you never use a rental car or taxi either?
>
> It sounds like his complaints are based on the notion that he'd have
> to engage in some critical thinking before hopping into his car on a
> whim for a trip that could likely be skipped, postponed or
> accomplished with some other form of transportation.
> --
> zk
Hmmm, critical thinking. Will my life end if I don't get a ride with
my mates on a Saturday morning? No. Can I travel the 75 miles to meet
them any other way then driving? No. Could we plan ahead of time to
meet? Difficult; work, health, family and the weather pretty dictate
when and where. So my choice is pretty much go or don't go and it's
usually don't go 'cos I've got other stuff on, but when I can make it,
the last thing I want to consider is can I get a car in the next 5
minutes. So, is the expense of owning car, so I can do what I like
when I like, worth it? Yes.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:15:30
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> > need to escape a hurricane.
>
> Which country do you live in?
USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
in the car when required.
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:20:06
From: marc
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Marz wrote:
> On Oct 29, 5:54 pm, Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>>> need to escape a hurricane.
>> Which country do you live in?
>
> USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
> in the car when required.
>
Of course, if a lot more less people used cars, then there would be a
lot less energy spare to create hurricanes!
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 17:02:11
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <Z5idnXUIuNHYNrXanZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@bt.com >,
initial.surname@btinternet.com says...
> >
> > USA, Houston. We have a hurricane kit prepped and ready to be thrown
> > in the car when required.
> >
>
> Of course, if a lot more less people used cars, then there would be a
> lot less energy spare to create hurricanes!
>
Noooo. You've got it all wrong. They have to cut down all those
Amazonian rain forests to stop those damn butterflies flapping their
wings ;-)
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:13:23
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 29, 5:32 pm, Tony Raven <j...@raven-family.invalid > wrote:
> In article <1193661587.056016.7...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> marzjenni...@gmail.com says...
>
>
>
> > Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> > suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>
> So I take it you never use a rental car or taxi either?
>
> --
> Tony
>
> " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
> Bertrand Russell
All the time when I travel away from home.
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 22:32:27
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 30, 5:01 pm, Zoot Katz <zootk...@operamail.com > wrote:
> The whole driving to ride thing hackles me apparently more than it
> hackles my friends. Most everyone can think of an example when
> transporting a bike by car might be a practical solution. None of
> them does it regularly. It seems a preponderance of club affiliated
> sport cyclists of all persuasions need bike racks for their cars as
> do the weekend warriors riding strictly on trails and paths. I still
> find it abominable to suggest that one needs a car to ride a bicycle.
>
> By transporting their bikes to be ridden out of sight of drivers does
> little for riders who do use the roads. It reinforces the idea that
> bicycles don't belong on the roads because they're toys. It's kinda
> like carrying skis or a board boat someplace to play.
Whether you like it or not, cycling is simply a form of recreation for
many people. As such, there's nothing evil about loading a bike onto a
rack and heading off someplace just to ride a bike there. I'd guess
that the majority here have done just that on more than one occasion
and people in this NG tend to cycle more than the general public. As
for your concern that throwing a bike on a car rack somehow makes
bikes seem like toys, what do you think drivers think when they see
you riding your bike wearing a dinosaur costume? Besides, "cool
costume", that is.
Regards,
Bob Hunt
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| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 11:30:02
From: congokid
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <47270b5a$0$14475$426a34cc@news.free.fr >, Artemisia
<nospam@free.fr > writes
>So I'm the opposite of you - I really don't like the idea of owning a
>car. Car-Free by choice and nature. And I think the experience has a
>lot in common with my Child-Freedom in that it involves going against a
>societal script to recognize that some people really don't want what
>"most people" consider "normal".
That was me for all of my first 30 years. At the age of 21 I spent time
and money on lessons in anticipation of a summer trip to the US where I
expected to have to drive. Feeling disadvantaged rather than empowered
during my lessons (in Belfast city centre), I decided that driving
wasn't for me and skipped the test. In the US I bought a car with three
others and they did the driving - all 7,000 miles of it.
It wasn't until almost 10 years later, after moving first to London and
then Basingstoke, that I eventually took more lessons and the test - it
was a condition of my job at the time to be able to drive. I bought my
first car shortly after (a brand new Golf GTi). I quite liked having it,
but during my early car ownership I was commuting long distances by
motorway to work and hating every minute of it.
Another job change brought me back to London. where I bought my second
car (brand new Golf cabriolet). Initially I used it a lot for work,
though with less distance to commute, but my job changed again and the
car became virtually redundant and an expensive liability. It was parked
on the street collecting damage, while I cycled to work. When it was
stolen and trashed in 1998, I rejoiced, cashed the insurance cheque and
have been car-free and happy about it ever since.
I have to admit there was a certain feeling of glamour about having a
nice motor to prat about in, but it's one I think I eventually outgrew.
As a method of getting to and from work, it's as dull as the tube or
train, and nowhere near as interesting or flexible as cycling.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com
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| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 15:54:24
From: Adam Lea
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On 29 Oct, 17:59, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> need to escape a hurricane.
>
Which country do you live in?
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 18:07:03
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 29, 8:33 am, David Hansen <SENDdavidNOhS...@spidacom.co.uk >
wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:39:47 -0000 someone who may be Marz
> <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote this:-
>
> >Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> >suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>
> People manage in the various car clubs. The one in Edinburgh has
> been going for many years now and was the first of a growing network
> by this operatorhttp://www.citycarclub.co.uk/
>
> http://www.citycarclub.co.uk/driving.phpoutlines some of the
> thinking behind the schemes.
>
> --
> David Hansen, Edinburgh
> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
45 quid a day for a limiting 50 miles. I can get a car from Hertz for
less than that, without any joining fee.
Using their online calculator I'd save about -18 quid a month, so not
really a lot use then.
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 17:59:20
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 29, 8:51 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
> Marz wrote:
> > Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> > suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>
> if the shoes are the right size, fit for the job at hand, not smelly,
> and only being used intermittently, and those occasions frequently
> different from those that other folk want them, what's the problem there?
>
> If you go ice-skating or 10-pin bowling in the UK you'll probably end up
> renting some shared footwear. It doesn't seem to put that many folk off
> either activity.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
It's not so much about the what or the fit for purpose it's more about
the when. I guess if I knew ahead of time when I would need a car and
plan for that need, managing my car needs wouldn't be a problem. For
example for lunch today I may want to nip out for lunch, maybe meet
the wife and without a car that would be impossible. Or on a Saturday
morning pick up an invitation to go ride somewhere and need the car to
carry the bike to the trail head. And thinking about being prepared
for an emergency, I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
need to escape a hurricane.
I'll stand up and admit it I am a convenience junky and need (ok,
want) a car.
On a side note, I gave up going bowling and ice-skating as I could
never find shoes that would fit (size 12).
Cheers,
Marz
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 08:28:37
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
"Marz" <marzjennings@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193680760.502664.145460@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> And thinking about being prepared
> for an emergency, I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
> need to escape a hurricane.
Funny, this is one of the reasons why we feel good about having two
tandems - if we needed to get out of town in a hurry, we could hit the road,
and not worry about being caught in a traffic jam. I have a vision of me, my
husband, our girls, four panniers, and the bob yak of camping gear, riding
along the shoulder of I-90, while the cars idling in place.
Of course, when Katrina hit and we hear about those terrible traffic jams,
it was the end of August, and it was easy for us, here in the Pacific
Northwest, to think about riding up and over the Cascades. It's another
thing to think about if it were January. Fording an icy mountain stream with
a tandem, when the highway bridges are down from a major earthquake in the
middle of winter is sort of a frightening notion. Then again, it would be
completely impossible in our car - with a bike, there's a possibility.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 21:58:42
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Marz" <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1193680760.502664.145460@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>
>> And thinking about being prepared
>> for an emergency, I don't want to be reliant on some one else when I
>> need to escape a hurricane.
>
> Funny, this is one of the reasons why we feel good about having two
> tandems - if we needed to get out of town in a hurry, we could hit the road,
> and not worry about being caught in a traffic jam. I have a vision of me, my
> husband, our girls, four panniers, and the bob yak of camping gear, riding
> along the shoulder of I-90, while the cars idling in place.
>
> Of course, when Katrina hit and we hear about those terrible traffic jams,
> it was the end of August, and it was easy for us, here in the Pacific
> Northwest, to think about riding up and over the Cascades. It's another
> thing to think about if it were January. Fording an icy mountain stream with
> a tandem, when the highway bridges are down from a major earthquake in the
> middle of winter is sort of a frightening notion. Then again, it would be
> completely impossible in our car - with a bike, there's a possibility.
>
On the other hand, the police might let you leave in a car, but not on a
bicycle or on foot:
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071031/ap_on_re_us/katrina_bridge_blockade >.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 11:45:54
From: Artemisia
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Marz wrote:
> I'll stand up and admit it I am a convenience junky and need (ok,
> want) a car.
That's fair enough; it just means you're not the target market for the
idea.
But lots of other people might be.
About ten years ago I spent a whole year having driving lessons twice a
week, and passed the written test first try. Only a few weeks before I
was supposed to take the road test, my schedule changed in such a way as
to make further lessons impossible. I readily gave up, despite the great
waste of time and money that this involved (I had already had and paid
for about 100 hours on the road), because at the bottom of my heart I
realized that I hated cars and didn't want a car. I considered a driving
license a useful thing to have on paper, but in practise I couldn't see
myself shackled with car ownership and MOTs and parking problems and all
that hassle. And if I was not planning to have a car of my own to
drive, then it was unlikely that I would be able to keep up enough road
proficiency to use a car on holidays, etc.
But now I live in a triste banlieue where car ownership is practically a
definition of citizenship. Pedestrians are so marginal that there are
shops around here that have no access except by car, and roads commonly
have no sidewalk. I cannot complete my kitchen, for example, because
there is no way to get the 2.5 metre slab of laminated pasteboard that
will serve as a work surface from the hardware shop to my home (a silly
distance of about 3km).
I think if I had had a convenient car-sharing scheme available back
then, I might have kept up road proficiency and would have been more
diligent about completing the driving course. And now I would be able to
finish my appartment without having to pay 60 Euros just to hire a mover
to get stuff back from the shop.
So I'm the opposite of you - I really don't like the idea of owning a
car. Car-Free by choice and nature. And I think the experience has a lot
in common with my Child-Freedom in that it involves going against a
societal script to recognize that some people really don't want what
"most people" consider "normal". The more visible the option becomes,
the more people recognize themselves in it and choose it. It's not about
converting people who truly and consciously want their cars, just about
creating a framework to allow - not only an articulate car-averse
minority, but also the immense amorphous mass of passive
car-non-enthusiasts - to express their preference.
EFR
Ile de France
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 12:39:47
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 26, 1:54 am, Artemisia <e.rose...@free.fr > wrote:
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>
> I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France (for example)
Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 22:32:36
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <1193661587.056016.7770@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
marzjennings@gmail.com says...
>
> Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>
So I take it you never use a rental car or taxi either?
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 16:06:49
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:32:36 -0000, Tony Raven
<junk@raven-family.invalid > wrote:
>In article <1193661587.056016.7770@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
>marzjennings@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
>> suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
>>
>
>So I take it you never use a rental car or taxi either?
It sounds like his complaints are based on the notion that he'd have
to engage in some critical thinking before hopping into his car on a
whim for a trip that could likely be skipped, postponed or
accomplished with some other form of transportation.
--
zk
|
| | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 13:51:37
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Marz wrote:
> Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
> suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
if the shoes are the right size, fit for the job at hand, not smelly,
and only being used intermittently, and those occasions frequently
different from those that other folk want them, what's the problem there?
If you go ice-skating or 10-pin bowling in the UK you'll probably end up
renting some shared footwear. It doesn't seem to put that many folk off
either activity.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 13:33:31
From: David Hansen
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:39:47 -0000 someone who may be Marz
<marzjennings@gmail.com > wrote this:-
>Share a car, I can't think of a more horrid and inconvenient
>suggestion for getting around. It'll be like sharing a pair of shoes.
People manage in the various car clubs. The one in Edinburgh has
been going for many years now and was the first of a growing network
by this operator http://www.citycarclub.co.uk/
http://www.citycarclub.co.uk/driving.php outlines some of the
thinking behind the schemes.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
|
| |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 14:04:57
From: congokid
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <MPG.218ba6d74175bc369897cd@news.nildram.co.uk >, Tony Raven
<junk@raven-family.invalid > writes
>I belong to Streetcar and it works very well. Doesn't replace my main
>car but means I use it a lot less and it allows me to cycle more knowing
>that I can pick up and use a car when needed at the end of the journey
>rather than taking my car with me on the journey.
I was tempted to use Streetcar - they have two vehicles parked near me -
but the UKP150 registration put me off. Have they since waived that? The
last time I rented a car, to collect an ebay purchase from elsewhere in
London, I got one from Six-t for UKP15 plus petrol. Much less than a
taxi would have cost me for the journey there and back.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com
|
| | |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 16:33:42
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <iUNKKHI5dzIHFwzm@congokid.demon.co.uk >,=20
congokid@congokid.com says...
>=20
> I was tempted to use Streetcar - they have two vehicles parked near me -=
=20
> but the UKP150 registration put me off. Have they since waived that? The=
=20
> last time I rented a car, to collect an ebay purchase from elsewhere in=
=20
> London, I got one from Six-t for UKP15 plus petrol. Much less than a=20
> taxi would have cost me for the journey there and back.
>=20
Its currently =A349.50 a year but those who, like me, joined before June=20
this year get Founder Member status with the membership fee waived :-)
http://streetcar.co.uk/pricing-Membership.aspx
--=20
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
|
| |
Date: 26 Oct 2007 12:17:14
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:08 -0700, Artemisia <e.roselli@free.fr >
wrote:
>Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
>Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
>easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
>that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
>without having to own them.
>
>http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>
>I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
>
Vancouver BC had the first English speaking car co-op in the world.
http://www.cooperativeauto.net/
--
zk
|
| |
Date: 26 Oct 2007 13:52:35
From: Rich Clark
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
"Artemisia" <e.roselli@free.fr > wrote in message
news:1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
PhillyCarShare, now five years old, has been immensely successful. I know a
number of people who have moved back into the city and now don't own cars,
and the availability of this service was very influential in their choice.
There are several different models for this; PhillyCareShare's
not-for-profit approach seems to be working very well.
And I've never had a bad traffic encounter with someone driving one of their
cars, either.
http://www.phillycarshare.org/index.php
r
|
| |
Date: 26 Oct 2007 07:46:51
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Artemisia wrote:
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>
> I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France (for example)
>
FlexCar seems to be picking up here in the States. Not sure about its
European counterparts, but Flex car has several locations around the
city with only one or two cars. You simply make your reservation ahead
of time and a magic fairy comes and gives you the keys. The spaces are
reserved for that specific car only (very obviously painted) so you just
drop it back off when your done. I wish I new more of the details.
\\paul
|
| | |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 07:33:25
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
"Paul Myron Hobson" <phobson@gatech.edu > wrote in message
news:ffsk3b$t7s$1@news-int.gatech.edu...
> Artemisia wrote:
>> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>>
>> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
>> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
>> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
>> without having to own them.
>>
>> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>>
>> I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
> FlexCar seems to be picking up here in the States. Not sure about its
> European counterparts, but Flex car has several locations around the city
> with only one or two cars. You simply make your reservation ahead of time
> and a magic fairy comes and gives you the keys. The spaces are reserved
> for that specific car only (very obviously painted) so you just drop it
> back off when you're done. I wish I new more of the details.
We also have flexcar (http://www.flexcar.com/) in Seattle. There's no magic
fairy. You waive your flex car over the reader; the keys are in the
glovebox.
We're considering using flexcar at our workplace. Since nearly all of our
workforce comes in by public transporation (we have two regular car drivers
and four regular cyclists), most people don't have a car around if they need
to go somewhere "in the field". Driving to work is hugely inconvenient and
parking is expensive. The idea is, if you did have somewhere you needed to
go during the work day, you could use the flexcar. Since a lot of them get
better gas mileage than people's personal cars, using flexcar would be
better for the environment, too.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 17:18:06
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:33:25 -0700, "Claire Petersky"
<cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > wrote. in part:
>We also have flexcar (http://www.flexcar.com/) in Seattle. There's no magic
>fairy. You waive your flex car over the reader; the keys are in the
>glovebox.
>
>We're considering using flexcar at our workplace. Since nearly all of our
>workforce comes in by public transporation (we have two regular car drivers
>and four regular cyclists), most people don't have a car around if they need
>to go somewhere "in the field". Driving to work is hugely inconvenient and
>parking is expensive.
\
Besides the co-operative I posted yesterday
<http://www.cooperativeauto.net/ >
there's a new car-sharing company in town; Zip Car.
<http://www.zipcar.com/ >
The only reason I know this is because I want to destroy, or at least
deface, their advertisements. Today I saw a bus with the ZipCar
advertising placard on its side. Above the windows is written five
ways you can use a ZipCar. One item was "Go Shopping" but my mind
went blank and I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use
their car to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
After I chill a bit more I'll send them a letter stating how
offensive I find that idea.
The Co-operative Auto Network is a not-for-profit organisation.
Members get perks like 15% off transit passes and extended insurance
plans. They also have a program for companies and employees sharing a
car. They'd get my business ahead of any other company.
Vancouver's zoning laws permits 3 fewer parking stalls in new
developments if the developer provides one space for shared car. CAN
is working with developers to that end. I think that's great.
--
zk
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 09:39:22
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com > wrote in message
news:g1i7i3dfp53i9bp5fag9hqopapomvc717b@4ax.com...
> went blank and I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use
> their car to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
I've seen Flexcars at the start line of centuries. I can see why someone
would motor to the start line, rather than riding to the start the day
before, spending the night, riding 100 miles, then spending the night again,
then riding home. If that was your only option, and you didn't own a car,
you probably wouldn't ride the century. Why should only car owners have that
fun?
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
|
| | | | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 15:01:44
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:39:22 -0700, "Claire Petersky"
<cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
>"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message
>news:g1i7i3dfp53i9bp5fag9hqopapomvc717b@4ax.com...
>
>> went blank and I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use
>> their car to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
>
>
>I've seen Flexcars at the start line of centuries. I can see why someone
>would motor to the start line, rather than riding to the start the day
>before, spending the night, riding 100 miles, then spending the night again,
>then riding home. If that was your only option, and you didn't own a car,
>you probably wouldn't ride the century. Why should only car owners have that
>fun?
The whole driving to ride thing hackles me apparently more than it
hackles my friends. Most everyone can think of an example when
transporting a bike by car might be a practical solution. None of
them does it regularly. It seems a preponderance of club affiliated
sport cyclists of all persuasions need bike racks for their cars as
do the weekend warriors riding strictly on trails and paths. I still
find it abominable to suggest that one needs a car to ride a bicycle.
By transporting their bikes to be ridden out of sight of drivers does
little for riders who do use the roads. It reinforces the idea that
bicycles don't belong on the roads because they're toys. It's kinda
like carrying skis or a board boat someplace to play.
It sadly even appears that there's a wide range of bicycles designed
to use automobiles or trucks as accessories. I think it's to
compensate for their deficiencies as bicycles. Beach cruisers and
down-hill bikes come to mind. Mountain biking has sold too many SUV.
Maybe now some people might be more inclined to rent cars for their
sport biking exploits rather than buying one and end up using it for
trips they may have previously made by bike.
--
zk
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 12:29:38
From: Roger Merriman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:39:22 -0700, "Claire Petersky"
> <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> >"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message
> >news:g1i7i3dfp53i9bp5fag9hqopapomvc717b@4ax.com...
> >
> >> went blank and I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use
> >> their car to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
> >
> >
> >I've seen Flexcars at the start line of centuries. I can see why someone
> >would motor to the start line, rather than riding to the start the day
> >before, spending the night, riding 100 miles, then spending the night again,
> >then riding home. If that was your only option, and you didn't own a car,
> >you probably wouldn't ride the century. Why should only car owners have that
> >fun?
>
> The whole driving to ride thing hackles me apparently more than it
> hackles my friends. Most everyone can think of an example when
> transporting a bike by car might be a practical solution. None of
> them does it regularly. It seems a preponderance of club affiliated
> sport cyclists of all persuasions need bike racks for their cars as
> do the weekend warriors riding strictly on trails and paths. I still
> find it abominable to suggest that one needs a car to ride a bicycle.
>
depends on the bike and area i guess, where i used to live, rocky climbs
and singetrack lay just out of the garden or at most a roll down a lane.
now unless while there are some parks near by but they are hardly a
challange on a MTB, the idea of riding out to the downs isn't terribly
attractive as it would probably have to be mostly road, which on mud
tires is hardly a good time, though people don't walk out infront of
you...
so if i want to use the MTB properly i realisticly have to drive out,
which is why the MTB stays in the shed, as i can't be bothered for most
part.
> By transporting their bikes to be ridden out of sight of drivers does
> little for riders who do use the roads. It reinforces the idea that
> bicycles don't belong on the roads because they're toys. It's kinda
> like carrying skis or a board boat someplace to play.
>
well if people live in towns and cities, which most do, this means that
if they buy a good MTB then to use it they will need to transport it,
which will probably mean by car, though train would be possible for
some.
> It sadly even appears that there's a wide range of bicycles designed
> to use automobiles or trucks as accessories. I think it's to
> compensate for their deficiencies as bicycles. Beach cruisers and
> down-hill bikes come to mind. Mountain biking has sold too many SUV.
>
or track bikes? some bikes are transport some are leisure some are both.
> Maybe now some people might be more inclined to rent cars for their
> sport biking exploits rather than buying one and end up using it for
> trips they may have previously made by bike.
for longer trips it looked fairly pricey, i'd think that either having
your own car or normal hire cars/vans would be more cost effective.
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 08:42:16
From: D.M. Procida
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com > wrote:
> By transporting their bikes to be ridden out of sight of drivers does
> little for riders who do use the roads. It reinforces the idea that
> bicycles don't belong on the roads because they're toys. It's kinda
> like carrying skis or a board boat someplace to play.
If you think that when we go on holiday that we're reinforcing the idea
that the M5 is not an approriate place for our ten-year-olds to be
riding their bikes, then yes, I think it's a jolly good idea to be
reinforcing.
Daniele
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 12:06:10
From: Artemisia
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Zoot Katz wrote:
> The only reason I know this is because I want to destroy, or at least
> deface, their advertisements. Today I saw a bus with the ZipCar
> advertising placard on its side. Above the windows is written five
> ways you can use a ZipCar. One item was "Go Shopping" but my mind
> went blank and I saw red after reading the suggestion that you use
> their car to "Go Biking". ARRRRRGGGGHGHHHHGHHHHHH!
Please don't, the idea isn't that bad for everyone.
I'm in quite a quandary to find decent cycling in my area. There's way
too much traffic, and besides it's ugly and polluted. I can only get to
work by bike if I get up at 5:30, and in winter I don't like to because
I'm not happy cycling in the dark. But there's plenty of good safe
cycling in areas that are not distant but not comfortably reachable by
public transport. For example, the beginner weekend rides of my cycling
club MDB are in the Fontainebleau forest which it would take about 3
hours to reach by a hateful comination of trains and buses (on which my
bike may not even be welcome, let alone a recumbent trike), but is only
about half an hour away by road. I have never been able to participate
in MDB's rides because of inability to get to the starting point.
So hey, not everyone can deal with cycling in city traffic. And it's
perfectly possible that one might wish to spend a day or a weekend
practising and exercising within a controlled park or country
environment that is only practically accessible by car.
No need for a car just to get to the supermarket though. Hence the
Zipcar sounds a good compromise to me.
EFR
Ile de France
|
| | |
Date: 26 Oct 2007 21:36:23
From: Antti Salonen
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In rec.bicycles.misc Paul Myron Hobson <phobson@gatech.edu > wrote:
> FlexCar seems to be picking up here in the States. Not sure about its
> European counterparts, but Flex car has several locations around the
> city with only one or two cars. You simply make your reservation ahead
> of time and a magic fairy comes and gives you the keys. The spaces are
> reserved for that specific car only (very obviously painted) so you just
> drop it back off when your done. I wish I new more of the details.
One car club has been around in Helsinki for many years now, and it
seems they currently have a few dozen locations around the metropolitan
area. The system seems to be pretty well thought out, based on what's
on their website:
"Club members can make reservations either online or use the 24-hour
reservation service (0200 242424). When making reservation they need to
decide what type of car they need, plus where and when they will pick it
up and return it. The car can be accessed by calling the opening number
(0200 88111) with a mobile phone. Next, the individual.s PIN number is
requested and then the last three digits of the car registration number.
After this, the central locking system will open the doors and the car
is ready for use. The keys will be inside the car. During the
reservation, the car functions normally, locking and unlocking works
with the key. When returning the car, the keys are left inside and
personal belongings are removed. A phone call to the closing number
(0200 88222) will lock the doors. The used time and driven kilometres
will be sent electronically to the central billing system. The car is
free for the next booking."
URL: http://www.citycarclub.info/en/
Never tried it, but no doubt a system like this can be very sensible for
people who only have an occasional need for a car.
Antti
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 14:03:44
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <ffsk3b$t7s$1@news-int.gatech.edu >, phobson@gatech.edu
says...
>
> FlexCar seems to be picking up here in the States. Not sure about its
> European counterparts, but Flex car has several locations around the
> city with only one or two cars. You simply make your reservation ahead
> of time and a magic fairy comes and gives you the keys. The spaces are
> reserved for that specific car only (very obviously painted) so you just
> drop it back off when your done. I wish I new more of the details.
>
Streetcar its even easier. Go to their website to check availability
and book the car. Walk up to car, wave Smart Card at windscreen to
unlock it, retrieve keys from glove box dispenser by entering your PIN
code, start car and drive off. There are pretty hefty charges for late
returns so getting there and finding the car not back from the previous
hirer is rare. In the same way as Flex, the parking space is clearly
marked out and reserved.
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 14:55:02
From: Ekul Namsob
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.invalid > wrote:
> In article <ffsk3b$t7s$1@news-int.gatech.edu>, phobson@gatech.edu
> says...
> >
> > FlexCar seems to be picking up here in the States. Not sure about its
> > European counterparts, but Flex car has several locations around the
> > city with only one or two cars. You simply make your reservation ahead
> > of time and a magic fairy comes and gives you the keys. The spaces are
> > reserved for that specific car only (very obviously painted) so you just
> > drop it back off when your done. I wish I new more of the details.
> >
>
> Streetcar its even easier.
All of these ideas sound great. Unfortunately, I see that Streetcar does
not have a presence anywhere noticeably north of London and Whizzgo only
has a presence in larger cities.
Cheers,
Luke
--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk >
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Date: 28 Oct 2007 08:48:21
From: D.M. Procida
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Ekul Namsob <notmyaddress.1.ekulnamsob@wronghead.com > wrote:
> > Streetcar its even easier.
>
> All of these ideas sound great. Unfortunately, I see that Streetcar does
> not have a presence anywhere noticeably north of London and Whizzgo only
> has a presence in larger cities.
Well, Streetcar - on a page which you can't reach except via a script,
how silly - say that all you need to do is offer an off-road parking
space for a Streetcar in your area:
Give Streetcar a home!
Do you have an allocated parking space? Then we want to hear
from you! Streetcar homes need to be available and accessible 24
hours a day, 7 days a week. You must also have the legal right
to let out the space.
I have a red Skoda that needs an MoT and to be shifted from the
driveway. Then there'll be a space for a Streetcar there.
Daniele
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Date: 28 Oct 2007 10:04:35
From: Ekul Namsob
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk > wrote:
> Ekul Namsob <notmyaddress.1.ekulnamsob@wronghead.com> wrote:
>
> > > Streetcar its even easier.
> >
> > All of these ideas sound great. Unfortunately, I see that Streetcar does
> > not have a presence anywhere noticeably north of London and Whizzgo only
> > has a presence in larger cities.
>
> Well, Streetcar - on a page which you can't reach except via a script,
> how silly - say that all you need to do is offer an off-road parking
> space for a Streetcar in your area:
>
> Give Streetcar a home!
>
> Do you have an allocated parking space? Then we want to hear
> from you! Streetcar homes need to be available and accessible 24
> hours a day, 7 days a week. You must also have the legal right
> to let out the space.
>
> I have a red Skoda that needs an MoT and to be shifted from the
> driveway. Then there'll be a space for a Streetcar there.
That's a fine idea. It's unfortunate that, as a two car family, we don't
have space for one.
Cheers,
Luke
--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk >
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 02:41:47
From:
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
On Oct 26, 9:06 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
> Pal of mine is in one in Edinburgh. The trick seems to be a certain
> density of population, which sadly doesn't seem to be present in Dundee
> :-(
Stroud, population 10,000 has one. Keenness for green issues probably
helps - the Green party run the town council, the mayor can be seen
round town on his bike. I'd have thought Dundee was easily big enough
to support one, you just need a few people who are pushy enough to get
it going.
Rob
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 09:04:51
From: burtthebike
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
"Artemisia" <e.roselli@free.fr > wrote in message
news:1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>
> I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
Bristol's been doing it for years, and is expanding it all the time.
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 09:15:27
From: Rob Morley
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
Artemisia
e.roselli@free.fr says...
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
It's almost like public transport that works. :-)
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 09:06:40
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Artemisia wrote:
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
Pal of mine is in one in Edinburgh. The trick seems to be a certain
density of population, which sadly doesn't seem to be present in Dundee
:-(
It also depends on what usage you want to make. Typically, such cars
are very popular at weekends for obvious reasons, and that's when we'd
want one, and we'd want it for the whole weekend and we'd want it with
roof-bars, which doesn't fit the generic sort of vehicle wanted in our
case. But that by no means invalidates the thing on a general basis!
Work has introduced pool cars for NHST business and they're popular and
doing well. Only catch was I couldn't get one last time I needed one as
they were booked out already that day...
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 08:27:10
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In news:1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,
Artemisia <e.roselli@free.fr > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
"There is a problem with the page you are trying to reach and it cannot be
displayed." Bah!
IIRC this is fairly widespread in Germany. We once - about ten years ago -
had a German chap come to stay with a view to selling the idea to various
London councils but nothing seemed to come of it at the time, though I dimly
recall seeing an item about such a thing on one of the TV motorcar shows.
--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk >
This Unit is a productive Unit.
|
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 08:25:43
From: Tony Raven
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In article <1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
e.roselli@free.fr says...
> Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
>
> Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> without having to own them.
>
> http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
>
> I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
>
I belong to Streetcar and it works very well. Doesn't replace my main
car but means I use it a lot less and it allows me to cycle more knowing
that I can pick up and use a car when needed at the end of the journey
rather than taking my car with me on the journey.
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
|
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 22:29:04
From: Roger Merriman
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.invalid > wrote:
> In article <1193381648.893713.180430@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> e.roselli@free.fr says...
> > Very interesting article in THE INDEPENDENT today.
> >
> > Car-parks, in housing developments and elsewhere, offering cars for
> > easy and affordable hourly rental along a sort of Velib system, so
> > that people can have cars when they need them (to go to IKEA, etc.)
> > without having to own them.
> >
> > http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article3088193.ece
> >
> > I hope this takes off in a lot of countries.
> >
>
> I belong to Streetcar and it works very well. Doesn't replace my main
> car but means I use it a lot less and it allows me to cycle more knowing
> that I can pick up and use a car when needed at the end of the journey
> rather than taking my car with me on the journey.
does look a intresting idea, i don't think i would get much use out of
it, (most of my car use is long distance travel)
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
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Date: 26 Oct 2007 09:45:26
From: Arthur Clune
Subject: Re: Car Clubs - A Cool Idea
|
In uk.rec.cycling Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.invalid > wrote:
> I belong to Streetcar and it works very well. Doesn't replace my main
I've joined WizzGo in York and it's excellent.
Arthur
--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera
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