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Main
Date: 08 Aug 2007 01:01:39
From: treynolds@my-deja.com
Subject: Car making a left turn in front of me
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If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
sooner or later happens. You approach and intersection with, say, a 4-
way stop sign. You want to go straight. There is a motorist on the
far side who wants to turn left, directly across your path. He
arrived at the stop before you so he has the right of way. You slow
down and stop. He then waves you through, even though he has the
right of way. It happens all the time, right?
Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
I pointed to the red light and motioned him to go through. He turned,
looking more than a little annoyed. I couldn't help but laugh.
In 25 years of bicycle commuting this has never happened before.
For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
Tom
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 12:11:56
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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On Aug 11, 6:45 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> But women going topless are /never/ invisible to drivers.
> Maybe that's the safest thing to be. Women -- take note.
As much as I like that idea (IANAW), I believe it would make
*everything* else invisible to about 50% of the population...
Austin
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 18:56:31
From:
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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treynolds@my-deja.com wrote:
> If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
> sooner or later happens.
SNIP
Today's Driver From Mars experience, for me, was the 1d10t who made a
left turn from the through lane. Yup, I had the green (going through),
and the left turn signals were red. Nope, no turn signal from the
motorist.
I'm sure some out there can top that just from their rides this
weekend.
rleone@hotmail.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:24:54
From: Papa Tom
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
I think we're being a little too hard on our fellow road-users. You have to
admit that bicyclists have earned the reputation of riding erratically,
blowing through red lights and STOP signs, etc. When I'm behind the wheel
of a car, I like to assume that any adult cyclist on the road is going to do
what he/she is supposed to do. Unfortunately, many more times than not, I
am wrong, and I find myself improvising at the very last second to avoid
trouble and protect the cyclist from other - less bicycle savvy - motorists.
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 16:45:27
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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In article <46be4150$0$27214$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > writes:
> Pat wrote:
>> The come to the stop sign,
>> stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with that? I
>> have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems to be
>> unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never even
>> turned his head to the left.
>
> Bicycles (and motorcycles) seem to be invisible sometimes to drivers.
So do walls of buildings, huddled masses of people
at bus stops, abutments, bollards, traffic islands,
sidewalks, construction zones, parked cars, front
yards, large game animals, freight trains, ditches,
concrete overpass pillars, fences, brick/stone walls,
mailboxes, telephone poles, school buses, etc.
But women going topless are /never/ invisible to drivers.
Maybe that's the safest thing to be. Women -- take note.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 16:28:20
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
In article <shrrb3hl3a80v1oba9ra8410cl4loelefv@4ax.com >,
VBadJuJu <none@ > writes:
>>I felt bad about not turning back, but I did her a favor by leaving
>>because she probably didn't get a ticket.
>
>
> A rather short multi use path I use to get places and but mainly only
> ride in the winter just did something kinda aggravating. The path
> crosses 3 or 4 streets all of which have a crosswalk and a stop sign
> for the path users. Last week they installed 3 ft high hi viz signs
> in the middle of each street:
> STATE LAW
> [Stop Sign]
> [Lg Ped Xing figure]
> Within Crosswalk
>
> Most drivers dont read the last line and have been stopping for anyone
> merely AT the crosswalk (but not WITHIN it yet) or approaching.
Kewl! In Vancouver, vehicle operators are legally obligated to
stop for pedestrians who obviously intend to cross the street,
whether or not they've actually stepped off the curb. Of course
that by-law (and pedestrians' rights in general) goes pretty
much ignored.
Whilst riding I accordingly stop for pedestrians crossing the
street. It wounds my heart when they apologize for "being in
my way," and when they're surpised that any non-pedestrian
would stop for them and respect their rights at all.
But hey -- ultimately we're /all/ pedestrians.
> In
> effect, they have turned each crossing into a 4 way stop with the
> peds/bikes sort of getting auto first chance to go. I point to the
> stop sign, but someone is going to get hurt when a 'you first', 'no
> YOU first' battle breaks out.
Maybe your local Powers-That-Be expect riders on the path
to dismount and walk it at the crosswalks. Especially if
you have a local by-law against riding in crosswalks.
However, even if such a by-law exists, chances are it goes
unenforced in the context of your path, and cycling path users
might be considered equivalent to pedestrian path users. At
least, until a car/bike collision occurs.
So if I were on that path, and the auto cross traffic
stopped to give me a break -- I'd take it, if it's safe.
Sometimes it's better to just go, than to stand one's
ground on a legal point of order (which might not be so
firmly-founded anyway if it involves riding across
a crosswalk.)
People just love to make a rider stop and put one or two
feet on solid ground. Especially if the rider is going
uphill. So at street/road intersections on this path,
the cross-street drivers see you stopped with a foot down;
they think: "This cyclist is respecting traffic so I'll
cut him a break," and you get to pedestricycle across
the crosswalk when it's safe enough to do so. Give the
drivers a thank-you wave & a gentle horn-honk. Be an
ambassador.
And then those drivers regard non-pedestrian, vehicular cyclists
the same as path riders, and ambiguity, confusion & animosity
rears its three ugly Cerberian heads.
cheers,
Tom
--
"High and lonesome, be on your merry way"
-- Jimmy Reed
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 03:57:55
From: me
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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I am reminded of an incident that a friend suffered while escorting a
group on a training ride ( lessons on how to ride in traffic ) Came up to
stop sign, car coming down major road stops and waves group out, leader (
friend ) shakes head, no, waves car on, car continues to wave on group,
BIG arm waves from friend, no good, eventually , leader gets off bike and
walks it to side of road, THROWS bike on grass, hands on hips, "NOW WHAT?"
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 08:46:30
From: David Kerber
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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In article <7hwui.44313$rX4.41679@pd7urf2no >, me@nowhere.com says...
> I am reminded of an incident that a friend suffered while escorting a
> group on a training ride ( lessons on how to ride in traffic ) Came up to
> stop sign, car coming down major road stops and waves group out, leader (
> friend ) shakes head, no, waves car on, car continues to wave on group,
> BIG arm waves from friend, no good, eventually , leader gets off bike and
> walks it to side of road, THROWS bike on grass, hands on hips, "NOW WHAT?"
I've found that what works best around here is when I point at the stop
sign, reminding them that I'm the one who's supposed to stop.
--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 17:04:49
From:
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
> One driver will stop in their lane and wave you through, backing up
> traffic behind them. Great except you can't see what's coming in the 2nd
> lane. And the possibility exists for the "helpful" driver to get rear
> ended just when your in front of their grill.
Happened to me two summers ago. I was on a multi use path with a stop
sign. Driver had no stop sign, but decided to stop anyway and wave me
across the street. After several seconds of back and forth, she
obviously wasn't going to move.
So I went. And she got plastered from behind at about 15 MPH.
I was fine, but I also wasn't going to stick around. She yelled "Hey!"
out her window after me.
I felt bad about not turning back, but I did her a favor by leaving
because she probably didn't get a ticket.
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 12:42:28
From: VBadJuJu
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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bryanscholtes@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> One driver will stop in their lane and wave you through, backing up
>> traffic behind them. Great except you can't see what's coming in the 2nd
>> lane. And the possibility exists for the "helpful" driver to get rear
>> ended just when your in front of their grill.
>
>Happened to me two summers ago. I was on a multi use path with a stop
>sign. Driver had no stop sign, but decided to stop anyway and wave me
>across the street. After several seconds of back and forth, she
>obviously wasn't going to move.
>
>So I went. And she got plastered from behind at about 15 MPH.
>
>I was fine, but I also wasn't going to stick around. She yelled "Hey!"
>out her window after me.
>
>I felt bad about not turning back, but I did her a favor by leaving
>because she probably didn't get a ticket.
A rather short multi use path I use to get places and but mainly only
ride in the winter just did something kinda aggravating. The path
crosses 3 or 4 streets all of which have a crosswalk and a stop sign
for the path users. Last week they installed 3 ft high hi viz signs
in the middle of each street:
STATE LAW
[Stop Sign]
[Lg Ped Xing figure]
Within Crosswalk
Most drivers dont read the last line and have been stopping for anyone
merely AT the crosswalk (but not WITHIN it yet) or approaching. In
effect, they have turned each crossing into a 4 way stop with the
peds/bikes sort of getting auto first chance to go. I point to the
stop sign, but someone is going to get hurt when a 'you first', 'no
YOU first' battle breaks out.
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 00:19:36
From: RBrickston
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
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In article <1186617889.036025.204630@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
bryanscholtes@gmail.com says...
>
> > One driver will stop in their lane and wave you through, backing up
> > traffic behind them. Great except you can't see what's coming in the 2nd
> > lane. And the possibility exists for the "helpful" driver to get rear
> > ended just when your in front of their grill.
>
> Happened to me two summers ago. I was on a multi use path with a stop
> sign. Driver had no stop sign, but decided to stop anyway and wave me
> across the street. After several seconds of back and forth, she
> obviously wasn't going to move.
>
> So I went. And she got plastered from behind at about 15 MPH.
>
> I was fine, but I also wasn't going to stick around. She yelled "Hey!"
> out her window after me.
>
> I felt bad about not turning back, but I did her a favor by leaving
> because she probably didn't get a ticket.
>
She probably wanted to make it your fault somehow. I just sit there and
refuse to cross. Other times when I see them slowing down to stop, I wave
them on and usually yell out something along the lines of "Don't ever
stop, you'll get rear ended eventually." Most of them give flash that "How
dare you not except my generous offer to help you" look of indignation.
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:41:22
From: Paul Turner
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
On Aug 7, 8:48 pm, RBrickston <rb20170REM...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> In article <1186534899.615220.27...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> thomas.treyno...@gmail.com says...
>
> > Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
> > It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
> > stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
> > the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
> > the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
> > waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
The version of this that I've noticed mulitple times is the following
(from a North American perspective): I am stopped at a red light
planning to turn left. When the light changes, the driver opposite
waives me through. He's presumably being courteous, not trying to kill
me, and maybe it worries him to have a cyclist out there in the middle
of the intersection. Unfortunately, there is often a line of cars
behind the friendly waiver and plenty of room for one of them to whip
around to the right of the stopped car, frustrated and fast because he
doesn't understand what the first driver is waiting for. I don't
especially like hanging in the middle of an intersection waiting for a
left either, but the fastest safe way to get out of there is for the
cars coming the other way to move promptly when it's their turn and so
I can take my turn.
Paul Turner
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 09:41:10
From: VBadJuJu
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
"treynolds@my-deja.com" <thomas.treynolds@gmail.com > wrote:
>If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
>sooner or later happens. ...
>For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
>it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
A wierd association I have noticed of late is immigrant drivers who
dont know hand signals. Much more than once I've drifted away from
the curb to prepare to turn left. An oncoming car seems to want to
turn left 'behind' me, I want to turn 'behind' her ie after we pass.
I am going slow because a) I have only one hand on the brakes and b)
thats what the timing calls for.
I signal to indicate my intentions and to let her know WHY I am going
kinda slow. 9 out of 10 times they get the Deer-in-the-headlights
look of Total Horror look wondering why I am pointing at them or why I
want them to move or pull over.
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 02:33:27
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
In article <46b91bc3$0$28673$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Wayne Pein <wpein@nc.rr.com > writes:
> treynolds@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
>> sooner or later happens. You approach and intersection with, say, a 4-
>> way stop sign. You want to go straight. There is a motorist on the
>> far side who wants to turn left, directly across your path. He
>> arrived at the stop before you so he has the right of way. You slow
>> down and stop. He then waves you through, even though he has the
>> right of way. It happens all the time, right?
>>
>> Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
>> It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
>> stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
>> the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
>> the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
>> waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
>>
>> I pointed to the red light and motioned him to go through. He turned,
>> looking more than a little annoyed. I couldn't help but laugh.
>>
>> In 25 years of bicycle commuting this has never happened before.
>>
>> For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
>> it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
>>
>> Tom
>
> My guess is that he got confused and thought you had a green also, and
> he was just being overly courteous and not mindful of appropriate
> right-of-way rules.
If Tom Reynolds was to the right of his adjacent
left turn lane, it should have been obvious to the
driver that he (Tom) wanted to go straight through.
Sometimes I get the vibe that drivers do this in a
passive-aggressive attempt to show-up the cyclist as
"holding up traffic", to all the other drivers whom
the hesitant driver is actually holding up. It's like
they're trying to say: "Ooh, lookie here, there's a
bi-wheeled pedestrian in the middle of the street
instead of on the sidewalk where he belongs. We have
to give him a chance to get out of the way, so we real
traffic can go without running him over."
I know, I know -- "never attribute to malice ..."
But so often malice & ignorance goes hand-in-hand.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 07 Aug 2007 23:06:14
From: Mike Cline
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
On Aug 7, 8:19 pm, "Pat" <P...@starrynight.com > wrote:
> I haven't had that happen, but more than once I have been riding straight on
> the road when a car will pull up to a stop sign on my right and proceed to
> turn left without even looking in my direction! The come to the stop sign,
> stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with that? I
> have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems to be
> unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never even
> turned his head to the left.
>
> Pat in TX
Yes this always happens to me too. The other thing that freaks me out
in this situation is when a person who I thought had already seen me
suddenly starts doing the quick left-right head checking that you
normally do right at the last second before stepping on the gas and
starting a left turn. Why would a person do the fast double-take if
they know that they need to wait 5 more seconds for a bike to go by?
To me, the quick back-forth motion of the head is a warning sign.
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Date: 07 Aug 2007 21:19:09
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
I haven't had that happen, but more than once I have been riding straight on
the road when a car will pull up to a stop sign on my right and proceed to
turn left without even looking in my direction! The come to the stop sign,
stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with that? I
have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems to be
unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never even
turned his head to the left.
Pat in TX
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 16:09:03
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
Pat wrote:
> The come to the stop sign,
> stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with that? I
> have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems to be
> unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never even
> turned his head to the left.
Bicycles (and motorcycles) seem to be invisible sometimes to drivers. At
least with motorcycles, the headlight law seems to have at least
partially solved the problem. I have mostly solved the problem on my
commute bike with my special horn, located under the headlights,
"http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg".
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 08:32:55
From: Jim Boyer
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
"Pat" <Pat@starrynight.com > wrote in message
news:5hsnkgF3lrpo3U1@mid.individual.net...
>I haven't had that happen, but more than once I have been riding straight
>on the road when a car will pull up to a stop sign on my right and proceed
>to turn left without even looking in my direction! The come to the stop
>sign, stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with
>that? I have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems
>to be unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never
>even turned his head to the left.
>
> Pat in TX
I sometimes think they're relying compeletely on their peripheral vision to
tell themselves there are no cars or trucks coming from their left. I feel
safer when a car is filling the lane behind or beside me in these
situations. If there is not motor vehicle to fill the lane (and their
peripheral vision) I keep my feet moving, sit up and move out further into
the lane to increase my the odds of my being seen. Of course, your case
sounds like that guy didn't even want to see.
jb
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 09:52:17
From: VBadJuJu
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
"Pat" <Pat@starrynight.com > wrote:
>I haven't had that happen, but more than once I have been riding straight on
>the road when a car will pull up to a stop sign on my right and proceed to
>turn left without even looking in my direction! The come to the stop sign,
>stop, look to the right, and pull out turning left! What's up with that? I
>have decided to yell something the next time this scenario seems to be
>unfolding. I almost ran into a guy's driver side door once. He never even
>turned his head to the left.
>
>Pat in TX
>
My fave is a red light with a Gomer on a cell phone turning left at a
light across from you, you are going straight. Or Gomer is pulling
out of a parking lot just ahead of you. In either case, they should
yield to the bike, but they start to go then see your intention to
follow thru on your legal right of way.
The reaction is almost universal. They start to go, then stop and
motion you to go like they are doing you a big favor by yielding as
called for. We need a hand signal to mean 'I dont need your
permission to proceed when you are required to yield.'
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:21:40
From: Dave Vandervies
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
In article <9hljb3h484q3737is96no0vs9v3s5fi8rc@4ax.com >,
VBadJuJu <none@ > wrote:
>The reaction is almost universal. They start to go, then stop and
>motion you to go like they are doing you a big favor by yielding as
>called for. We need a hand signal to mean 'I dont need your
>permission to proceed when you are required to yield.'
I'm tempted to offer a suggestion, but I think I'll stop at mentioning
that googling for "see figure 1" will turn up what I was tempted to
suggest.
dave
--
Dave Vandervies dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
I'd much rather fix the problem than the blame, but in this case fixing the
problem seems to involve fixing the blame and applying the sword of
penitence appropriately. --Mike Andrews in the scary devil monastery
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 01:48:26
From: RBrickston
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
In article <1186534899.615220.27570@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
thomas.treynolds@gmail.com says...
> If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
> sooner or later happens. You approach and intersection with, say, a 4-
> way stop sign. You want to go straight. There is a motorist on the
> far side who wants to turn left, directly across your path. He
> arrived at the stop before you so he has the right of way. You slow
> down and stop. He then waves you through, even though he has the
> right of way. It happens all the time, right?
>
> Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
> It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
> stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
> the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
> the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
> waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
>
> I pointed to the red light and motioned him to go through. He turned,
> looking more than a little annoyed. I couldn't help but laugh.
>
> In 25 years of bicycle commuting this has never happened before.
>
> For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
> it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
>
> Tom
>
>
I suppose they think they're being helpful. The worst is when someone
stops at a bike crossing on a four lane with a median with no signal or
sign.
One driver will stop in their lane and wave you through, backing up
traffic behind them. Great except you can't see what's coming in the 2nd
lane. And the possibility exists for the "helpful" driver to get rear
ended just when your in front of their grill.
I always refuse to cross and they always get indignant.
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 01:34:09
From: SB
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
A typical case of DWS - Driving While Stupid
SB
"treynolds@my-deja.com" <thomas.treynolds@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186534899.615220.27570@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
> sooner or later happens. You approach and intersection with, say, a 4-
> way stop sign. You want to go straight. There is a motorist on the
> far side who wants to turn left, directly across your path. He
> arrived at the stop before you so he has the right of way. You slow
> down and stop. He then waves you through, even though he has the
> right of way. It happens all the time, right?
>
> Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
> It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
> stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
> the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
> the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
> waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
>
> I pointed to the red light and motioned him to go through. He turned,
> looking more than a little annoyed. I couldn't help but laugh.
>
> In 25 years of bicycle commuting this has never happened before.
>
> For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
> it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
>
> Tom
>
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Date: 07 Aug 2007 21:26:26
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Car making a left turn in front of me
|
treynolds@my-deja.com wrote:
> If you ride very much in the city, and you obey traffic laws, this
> sooner or later happens. You approach and intersection with, say, a 4-
> way stop sign. You want to go straight. There is a motorist on the
> far side who wants to turn left, directly across your path. He
> arrived at the stop before you so he has the right of way. You slow
> down and stop. He then waves you through, even though he has the
> right of way. It happens all the time, right?
>
> Well, yesterday on my commute home a new variation on this occurred.
> It was the exact same situation except it was as stop LIGHT, not a
> stop sign. I had a red light, I was unclipped with my foot down, and
> the motorist had a green left turn arrow. He stops in the middle of
> the intersection and tries to wave me through, while other cars are
> waiting behind him. He expects me to run the red light.
>
> I pointed to the red light and motioned him to go through. He turned,
> looking more than a little annoyed. I couldn't help but laugh.
>
> In 25 years of bicycle commuting this has never happened before.
>
> For those of you who associate behavior with car model (including me),
> it was a Lexus mini-SUV.
>
> Tom
My guess is that he got confused and thought you had a green also, and
he was just being overly courteous and not mindful of appropriate
right-of-way rules.
Wayne
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