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Main
Date: 13 Aug 2006 21:06:41
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
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Hello,
I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
the outside of the wheel.
Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
as well?
I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
Lbs. if that matters.
Thanks,
Steve
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 16:20:02
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
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Steve Sr. wrote:
> But Ron, how do you know that this is happening with these wheels? Do
> you have any other data points for 20/24 spoke wheels that would
> indicate that these new tensions are lower than other similar wheels?
The original tension seems quite reasonable for low spoke count
wheels... the new tension seems low for even 32-36 spoke wheels... so I
suspect that the "solution" is simply a way to get around admitting
that the rims cannot take the tension they were designed for. That
doesn't mean that the wheels won't work for you... it depends on how
hard you are on wheels... but the spokes will surely go slack at
lighter loads than they would with higher tension. There is some data
on spoke tensions at the bottom of this page:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=51
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 16:04:25
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
|
Steve Sr. wrote:
> Front Rear Drive Rear non-drive
> Old 106Kg 127Kg 57Kg
> New 70Kg 91Kg 49Kg
They seem to be solving their weak rim problem by reducing the spoke
tension. Not the best solution, but surely the cheapest.
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:55:06
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
|
On 1 Sep 2006 16:04:25 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <rruffrruff@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>Steve Sr. wrote:
>> Front Rear Drive Rear non-drive
>> Old 106Kg 127Kg 57Kg
>> New 70Kg 91Kg 49Kg
>
>They seem to be solving their weak rim problem by reducing the spoke
>tension. Not the best solution, but surely the cheapest.
But Ron, how do you know that this is happening with these wheels? Do
you have any other data points for 20/24 spoke wheels that would
indicate that these new tensions are lower than other similar wheels?
Steve
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 21:58:24
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
|
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:06:41 -0400, Steve Sr. <Nospam@nospam.com >
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>
>These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>the outside of the wheel.
>
>Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>as well?
>
>I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>Lbs. if that matters.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
Here is what the final resolution was to this issue. Thanks for
everyones's input.
The manufacturer replaced both wheels under warranty. I was at the
shop when the new wheels were uncrated so I know that they were as
received from the factory.
While we were doing the wheel swap the tech took some readings of the
spoke tension in both sets of wheels. The old ones were considerably
tighter than the new ones. I don't know if that can be attributed to
the LBS tightening the old set or the manufacturer changing the spec.
The readings were taken with a Wheelsmith tensiometer and are as shown
in the table below:
Front Rear Drive Rear non-drive
Old 106Kg 127Kg 57Kg
New 70Kg 91Kg 49Kg
Any wheel builders care to comment on these numbers? These are 20/24
spoke wheels.
Thanks,
Steve
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 20:10:03
From:
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
|
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:58:24 -0400, Steve Sr. <Nospam@nospam.com >
wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:06:41 -0400, Steve Sr. <Nospam@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>>century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>>there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>>The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>>front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>>the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>
>>These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>>They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>>spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>>If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>>the outside of the wheel.
>>
>>Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>>over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>>I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>>even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>>deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>>as well?
>>
>>I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>>even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>>suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>>probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>>Lbs. if that matters.
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Steve
>
>Here is what the final resolution was to this issue. Thanks for
>everyones's input.
>
>The manufacturer replaced both wheels under warranty. I was at the
>shop when the new wheels were uncrated so I know that they were as
>received from the factory.
>
>While we were doing the wheel swap the tech took some readings of the
>spoke tension in both sets of wheels. The old ones were considerably
>tighter than the new ones. I don't know if that can be attributed to
>the LBS tightening the old set or the manufacturer changing the spec.
>
>The readings were taken with a Wheelsmith tensiometer and are as shown
>in the table below:
>
> Front Rear Drive Rear non-drive
>Old 106Kg 127Kg 57Kg
>New 70Kg 91Kg 49Kg
>
>Any wheel builders care to comment on these numbers? These are 20/24
>spoke wheels.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
Dear Steve,
Am I correct in assuming that those are the averages for the spokes?
If so, is there any chance of getting the tension numbers for each
spoke that led to the averages?
In another thread, I just raised the question of how evenly tensioned
typical spokes really are, and your LBS may have just produced some
sample data.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:52:42
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere - Resolution
|
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:10:03 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:58:24 -0400, Steve Sr. <Nospam@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:06:41 -0400, Steve Sr. <Nospam@nospam.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>>>century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>>>there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>>>The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>>>front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>>>the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>>
>>>These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>>>They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>>>spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>>>If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>>>the outside of the wheel.
>>>
>>>Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>>>over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>>>I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>>>even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>>>deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>>>as well?
>>>
>>>I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>>>even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>>>suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>>>probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>>>Lbs. if that matters.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Steve
>>
>>Here is what the final resolution was to this issue. Thanks for
>>everyones's input.
>>
>>The manufacturer replaced both wheels under warranty. I was at the
>>shop when the new wheels were uncrated so I know that they were as
>>received from the factory.
>>
>>While we were doing the wheel swap the tech took some readings of the
>>spoke tension in both sets of wheels. The old ones were considerably
>>tighter than the new ones. I don't know if that can be attributed to
>>the LBS tightening the old set or the manufacturer changing the spec.
>>
>>The readings were taken with a Wheelsmith tensiometer and are as shown
>>in the table below:
>>
>> Front Rear Drive Rear non-drive
>>Old 106Kg 127Kg 57Kg
>>New 70Kg 91Kg 49Kg
>>
>>Any wheel builders care to comment on these numbers? These are 20/24
>>spoke wheels.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Steve
>
>Dear Steve,
>
>Am I correct in assuming that those are the averages for the spokes?
Yes, those are averages.
>
>If so, is there any chance of getting the tension numbers for each
>spoke that led to the averages?
>
>In another thread, I just raised the question of how evenly tensioned
>typical spokes really are, and your LBS may have just produced some
>sample data.
These wheels were very consistent. As I recall there might have been
one or at most 2 outliers per wheel. They were real consistant but
then the tensiometer had relatively low resolution (large distance
between readings.
Steve
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 21:04:32
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
"jim beam" wrote:
> ...
> same with another friend and his mavic cosmos. he weighs about 40lbs
> less than i, had endless problems and gave them to me. i re-tensioned
> them per the book and trued properly.
^^^^^^^^^^
This book:
<http://pages.globetrotter.net/docvelo/images_d/wheelbook.gif >?
--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Impact is not a synonym of affect or effect
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 21:46:37
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> "jim beam" wrote:
>> ...
>> same with another friend and his mavic cosmos. he weighs about 40lbs
>> less than i, had endless problems and gave them to me. i re-tensioned
>> them per the book and trued properly.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This book:
> <http://pages.globetrotter.net/docvelo/images_d/wheelbook.gif>?
no, definitely not that book! figure of speech. i meant "as per
manufacturer specification". i called mavic to get the numbers.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
> Impact is not a synonym of affect or effect
>
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 09:11:06
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
In article <P8ydndm8VuAwzHzZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <nospam@example.net > wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > "jim beam" wrote:
> >> ... same with another friend and his mavic cosmos. he weighs
> >> about 40lbs less than i, had endless problems and gave them to me.
> >> i re-tensioned them per the book and trued properly.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > This book:
> > <http://pages.globetrotter.net/docvelo/images_d/wheelbook.gif>?
>
> no, definitely not that book! figure of speech. i meant "as per
> manufacturer specification". i called mavic to get the numbers.
LOL. Say, though, what you write points out the underlying problem.
The Jobst method used to work fine without rims failing by cracking.
Now- according to you at least- it doesn't because it results in spoke
tensions that are too high and that causes rims to fail.
If modern rims can't tolerate spoke tensions that worked perfectly well
previously, then it's pretty clear that there is a problem with these
rims.
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 18:13:15
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
Tim McNaa wrote:
> In article <P8ydndm8VuAwzHzZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> "jim beam" wrote:
>>>> ... same with another friend and his mavic cosmos. he weighs
>>>> about 40lbs less than i, had endless problems and gave them to me.
>>>> i re-tensioned them per the book and trued properly.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> This book:
>>> <http://pages.globetrotter.net/docvelo/images_d/wheelbook.gif>?
>> no, definitely not that book! figure of speech. i meant "as per
>> manufacturer specification". i called mavic to get the numbers.
>
> LOL. Say, though, what you write points out the underlying problem.
> The Jobst method used to work fine without rims failing by cracking.
> Now- according to you at least- it doesn't because it results in spoke
> tensions that are too high and that causes rims to fail.
>
> If modern rims can't tolerate spoke tensions that worked perfectly well
> previously, then it's pretty clear that there is a problem with these
> rims.
not really. the "problem" [read: "difference"] is that the old ones
were very low pro and therefore considerably less stiff. euler
therefore kicked in at much lower rim compression than you can achieve
today on a stiffer rim. the only way to build, then and now, is with
measured spoke tension. but even that is a problem for jobst since he
doesn't have spoke gauge in his tensiometer math.
|
| |
Date: 15 Aug 2006 02:08:34
From: Chris
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
I had a set and the ABG rep said don't use them as they're too fragile at
1430 grams for the set and I was already cracking every 9 mos Cane Creek
Aros wheels. I weigh 195+/-, usually ride in top 10, so I'm usually missing
pot holes and the like.
Also, had a set of Campy Nucleon wheels go bad -- cracks at the spoke holes
on the front in 2 yrs and the in just under 3 years the rear crumbled at the
weld. Campy warranted both. Last year was a high mileage year, with two CC
wheels cracked, one reflex tubular, popped spokes on CC Aros SL on a race,
had two FSA carbon left crank arms and one Wipperman chain break and no
crashes.
No trashed equipment this year.
"Steve Sr." <Nospam@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:ndhvd2hlpnnmqgvqnb28thgist8jf6s34a@4ax.com...
> Hello,
>
> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>
> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
> the outside of the wheel.
>
> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
> over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
> I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
> as well?
>
> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
> Lbs. if that matters.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
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| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2006 21:48:30
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
Chris wrote:
> I had a set and the ABG rep said don't use them as they're too fragile at
> 1430 grams for the set and I was already cracking every 9 mos Cane Creek
> Aros wheels. I weigh 195+/-, usually ride in top 10, so I'm usually missing
> pot holes and the like.
>
> Also, had a set of Campy Nucleon wheels go bad -- cracks at the spoke holes
> on the front in 2 yrs and the in just under 3 years the rear crumbled at the
> weld. Campy warranted both. Last year was a high mileage year, with two CC
> wheels cracked, one reflex tubular, popped spokes on CC Aros SL on a race,
> had two FSA carbon left crank arms and one Wipperman chain break and no
> crashes.
what spoke tensions were you using? especially on the reflex - that's
usually a strong reliable rim.
>
> No trashed equipment this year.
>
>
>
> "Steve Sr." <Nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:ndhvd2hlpnnmqgvqnb28thgist8jf6s34a@4ax.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>
>> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>> the outside of the wheel.
>>
>> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>> over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>> I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>> as well?
>>
>> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>> Lbs. if that matters.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Steve
>
>
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2006 02:43:17
From: Chris
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
The spoke tension on the CCs were from the factory with no adjustment.
I too was surprised by the Reflex failing, was built by a local top wrench
who has a good reputation, don't know what tension he used.
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net > wrote in message
news:P8ydndi8VuCCz3zZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Chris wrote:
>> I had a set and the ABG rep said don't use them as they're too fragile at
>> 1430 grams for the set and I was already cracking every 9 mos Cane Creek
>> Aros wheels. I weigh 195+/-, usually ride in top 10, so I'm usually
>> missing pot holes and the like.
>>
>> Also, had a set of Campy Nucleon wheels go bad -- cracks at the spoke
>> holes on the front in 2 yrs and the in just under 3 years the rear
>> crumbled at the weld. Campy warranted both. Last year was a high
>> mileage year, with two CC wheels cracked, one reflex tubular, popped
>> spokes on CC Aros SL on a race, had two FSA carbon left crank arms and
>> one Wipperman chain break and no crashes.
>
> what spoke tensions were you using? especially on the reflex - that's
> usually a strong reliable rim.
>
>>
>> No trashed equipment this year.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Steve Sr." <Nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:ndhvd2hlpnnmqgvqnb28thgist8jf6s34a@4ax.com...
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>>> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>>> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>>> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>>> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>>> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>>
>>> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>>> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>>> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>>> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>>> the outside of the wheel.
>>>
>>> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>>> over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>>> I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>>> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>>> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>>> as well?
>>>
>>> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>>> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>>> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>>> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>>> Lbs. if that matters.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2006 23:13:57
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
In article <C0aEg.8210$kO3.2811@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com >,
"Chris" <Chris1207@excite.com > wrote:
> I had a set and the ABG rep said don't use them as they're too
> fragile at 1430 grams for the set and I was already cracking every 9
> mos Cane Creek Aros wheels. I weigh 195+/-, usually ride in top 10,
> so I'm usually missing pot holes and the like.
>
> Also, had a set of Campy Nucleon wheels go bad -- cracks at the spoke
> holes on the front in 2 yrs and the in just under 3 years the rear
> crumbled at the weld. Campy warranted both. Last year was a high
> mileage year, with two CC wheels cracked, one reflex tubular, popped
> spokes on CC Aros SL on a race, had two FSA carbon left crank arms
> and one Wipperman chain break and no crashes.
>
> No trashed equipment this year.
Good for you. Clearly your previous equipment wasn't up to the task.
There is no way that kind of failure rate is acceptable.
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2006 05:09:30
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>
> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
> the outside of the wheel.
Rims shouldn't be cracking at the spoke holes with only 4000 miles. Doesn't
matter that they're 24 spoke (the rear wheel, which was the one that
cracked). I would bring them back to the shop you purchased them from before
getting into too much discussion here though; could be a known issue with a
batch of wheels, and you'll be taken care of without hassle.
> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
> over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
> I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
> as well?
Too much spoke tension, defective extrusion, or just plain bad design, or
any combination of the three could cause the problem. You should not
continue to ride the wheel, because it's possible that it would deform
enough that the wheel could scrape on the side of the chainstay, causing
damage to the frame. Far less likely would be a catastrophic failure.
Chances that the front wheel would suffer the same fate are slim to none;
there's simply no drive loading on the front wheel... it's just going along
for the ride.
> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
> Lbs. if that matters.
Your weight isn't an issue, although riding style varies so much that we
will sometimes find 200 lb guys who get away with lightweight stuff despite
doing a whole lot of miles, and 150 lb guys who destroy everything they
touch. Ironically, it's generally the guy who's not in the best shape, and
just barely hanging onto a group, who has the most trouble... probably
because they're at the back, not seeing the potholes and hitting the
full-on.
Really, your best bet is to go back to the shop and talk with them about the
wheels. Sorry I don't have any direct knowledge for that particular product;
I checked their dealer list and it seems to include just about everybody in
the world *but* our shop!
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2006 21:48:35
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
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On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:09:30 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>
>> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>> the outside of the wheel.
>
>Rims shouldn't be cracking at the spoke holes with only 4000 miles. Doesn't
>matter that they're 24 spoke (the rear wheel, which was the one that
>cracked). I would bring them back to the shop you purchased them from before
>getting into too much discussion here though; could be a known issue with a
>batch of wheels, and you'll be taken care of without hassle.
>
>> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>> over tensioned? Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>> I stop riding it immediately? The rim is still running pretty true
>> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>> as well?
>
>Too much spoke tension, defective extrusion, or just plain bad design, or
>any combination of the three could cause the problem. You should not
>continue to ride the wheel, because it's possible that it would deform
>enough that the wheel could scrape on the side of the chainstay, causing
>damage to the frame. Far less likely would be a catastrophic failure.
>Chances that the front wheel would suffer the same fate are slim to none;
>there's simply no drive loading on the front wheel... it's just going along
>for the ride.
>
>> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>> Lbs. if that matters.
>
>Your weight isn't an issue, although riding style varies so much that we
>will sometimes find 200 lb guys who get away with lightweight stuff despite
>doing a whole lot of miles, and 150 lb guys who destroy everything they
>touch. Ironically, it's generally the guy who's not in the best shape, and
>just barely hanging onto a group, who has the most trouble... probably
>because they're at the back, not seeing the potholes and hitting the
>full-on.
>
>Really, your best bet is to go back to the shop and talk with them about the
>wheels. Sorry I don't have any direct knowledge for that particular product;
>I checked their dealer list and it seems to include just about everybody in
>the world *but* our shop!
Mike,
Thanks for the advice. The dealer has been notified and will be
getting in contact with the factory. We'll see where it goes from
there.
It sounds like you *wouldn't want* these wheels in your shop!
Steve
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 19:55:37
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
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Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>
> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
> the outside of the wheel.
>
> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
> over tensioned?
deformation near the spoke holes? rim cracking? excess spoke tension!!!
> Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
> I stop riding it immediately?
it'll just keep on cracking. unlikely to be catastrophic, but spokes
will suddenly go slack and the wheel consequently warp.
> The rim is still running pretty true
> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
> as well?
less common, but yes, in due course.
>
> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
> Lbs. if that matters.
155? that's way light. almost any wheel, even ultra low spoke count
wheels, will be just fine for you. just make sure spoke tension is even
and within rim manufacturer spec. unfortunately, many bike shop
mechanics have read a certain book which incorrectly advocates spokes
having "tension as high as the rim can bear". unfortunately for you,
spoke tension that a rim can bear in static loading != the tension it
can bear in fatigue loading, so you're suffering the consequences of
that error.
if you buy new pre-built wheels, do /not/ allow your lbs to "help" these
wheels by increasing spoke tension. have the lbs show you what the
tension is and compare it to the manufacturer spec before paying.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 21:56:03
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
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On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:55:37 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net >
wrote:
>Steve Sr. wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>
>> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>> the outside of the wheel.
>>
>> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>> over tensioned?
>
>deformation near the spoke holes? rim cracking? excess spoke tension!!!
>
>> Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>> I stop riding it immediately?
>
>it'll just keep on cracking. unlikely to be catastrophic, but spokes
>will suddenly go slack and the wheel consequently warp.
>
>> The rim is still running pretty true
>> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>> as well?
>
>less common, but yes, in due course.
>
>>
>> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>> Lbs. if that matters.
>
>155? that's way light. almost any wheel, even ultra low spoke count
>wheels, will be just fine for you. just make sure spoke tension is even
>and within rim manufacturer spec. unfortunately, many bike shop
>mechanics have read a certain book which incorrectly advocates spokes
>having "tension as high as the rim can bear". unfortunately for you,
>spoke tension that a rim can bear in static loading != the tension it
>can bear in fatigue loading, so you're suffering the consequences of
>that error.
>
>if you buy new pre-built wheels, do /not/ allow your lbs to "help" these
>wheels by increasing spoke tension. have the lbs show you what the
>tension is and compare it to the manufacturer spec before paying.
>
I don't know if the LBS re-tensioned the wheels before they deliverd
the bike or not. I wouldn't put it past them as they are probably used
to dealing with the regular loose prebuilt wheels and probably
"tighten" them all up for good measure!
One of the techs also broke the chain a few links too short when they
assembled the bike and put it back together *without* using the
special Shimano pins. It broke about a 1000 miles later.
Steve
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 19:58:02
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Cracked Rim - Real Design Supersphere
|
Steve Sr. wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:55:37 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Steve Sr. wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I was cleaning my bike today after getting caught in the rain on a
>>> century ride yesterday. When I looked at the rear wheel I noticed that
>>> there were cracks around the spoke holes on several drive side spokes.
>>> The cracking appears to be circumferential. I also took a look at the
>>> front rim and I didn't see any cracking but did notice deformation of
>>> the area of the rim near the spoke holes.
>>>
>>> These wheel are about a year old and have about 4000 miles on them.
>>> They are also lower than regular spoke count wheels at 24 and 20
>>> spokes respectively. The rims appear to be polished and not anodized.
>>> If there are any spoke eyelets they are internal and not visible from
>>> the outside of the wheel.
>>>
>>> Can anyone hazard a guess at to why the rim cracked? Were the spokes
>>> over tensioned?
>> deformation near the spoke holes? rim cracking? excess spoke tension!!!
>>
>>> Is this rim likely to fail catastrophically and should
>>> I stop riding it immediately?
>> it'll just keep on cracking. unlikely to be catastrophic, but spokes
>> will suddenly go slack and the wheel consequently warp.
>>
>>> The rim is still running pretty true
>>> even though it has never been trued to my knowledge. Is the rim
>>> deformation in the front wheel likely to lead to cracking and failure
>>> as well?
>> less common, but yes, in due course.
>>
>>> I am seriously considering ditching these wheels in the near future
>>> even if Real Design replaces them under warranty. Do any of you have
>>> suggestions for currently available rims that are durable? I would
>>> probably go with the standard 32/36 hole rim. BTW, I only weigh 155
>>> Lbs. if that matters.
>> 155? that's way light. almost any wheel, even ultra low spoke count
>> wheels, will be just fine for you. just make sure spoke tension is even
>> and within rim manufacturer spec. unfortunately, many bike shop
>> mechanics have read a certain book which incorrectly advocates spokes
>> having "tension as high as the rim can bear". unfortunately for you,
>> spoke tension that a rim can bear in static loading != the tension it
>> can bear in fatigue loading, so you're suffering the consequences of
>> that error.
>>
>> if you buy new pre-built wheels, do /not/ allow your lbs to "help" these
>> wheels by increasing spoke tension. have the lbs show you what the
>> tension is and compare it to the manufacturer spec before paying.
>>
>
> I don't know if the LBS re-tensioned the wheels before they deliverd
> the bike or not. I wouldn't put it past them as they are probably used
> to dealing with the regular loose prebuilt wheels and probably
> "tighten" them all up for good measure!
the conception that they're "loose" is precisely the problem and way,
/way/ wrong. the first pre-built wheels i bought, the mech picked up
the boxes and took them to the back of the shop. after hanging about
for about 10 minutes, i discover he's in the back of the shop tightening
the spokes and rounding off the spoke nipples.
they were "dismayed" when i refused to pay and insist they supply
another pair, in the box, unopened. and i'm glad i did - i've never had
a moment's problem with these wheels. 16 spoke shimano r540's. a
friend of mine had a pair of the same wheels which had been "helped" and
he had nothing but problems with them.
same with another friend and his mavic cosmos. he weighs about 40lbs
less than i, had endless problems and gave them to me. i re-tensioned
them per the book and trued properly. i never had any problems and i'm
about #205. eventually gave them back to him and he's never had any
more trouble either.
moral of the story: do /not/ buy pre-built wheels unless they're new,
in-box, and unopened. there are shockingly few people that can actually
build a decent high spoke count wheel, and far fewer that can
successfully adjust a low spoke count pre-built - should it ever need it.
>
> One of the techs also broke the chain a few links too short when they
> assembled the bike and put it back together *without* using the
> special Shimano pins. It broke about a 1000 miles later.
qed.
>
> Steve
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