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Main
Date: 08 Jul 2007 11:53:11
From: Joe S.
Subject: Female riders in the Tour???
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Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 10:16:17
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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On Jul 14, 7:38 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> Not to be rude to some excellent cyclists, but if they were world-class,
> they wouldn't be doing 24-hour championships. Even Chris Eatough.
>
> Instead, they'd be riding the UCI or Norba MTB series if they were good
> enough.
Well, it's a good argument, to a point. Eatough, and the others who
have lingered at the top of this event, are undoubtedly 'world class'
riders. Tinker Juarez and Grewal both raced UCI World Cup mtb races
and did okay. But it's true endurance racing is not where the toughest
competition is in mtb racing. The atmosphere is much more casual even
among the top riders. And, in general, American riders have fared
poorly against riders from ... just about anywhere else. Ironic for an
American-born sport. OTOH, if the competition were tougher, you'd just
see faster men and faster women, and in the end it would be about the
same, imo. There would be a small handful of dominant men who no women
and no other men could hope to touch. And there would be a second tier
of very strong riders, among which would be the top women. I'll
reierate that there are no slouchy climbers among them, unlike in the
Tour.
> And you know what happens if you're a World Champion MTBer? Then you're
> probably good enough to become a pretty successful road racer:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rasmussen
>
> Not the best, mind you, but back-to-back spotted jerseys is nothing to
> sneeze at.
He's thinking about the overall, imo. But, lest we forget, Flandis
rose far higher than Rasmussen, and from a far, far more humble spot
in the mtn bike world -- eastern US.
> Any woman with the Watts/kg to climb through the mountains would not
> have the raw Watts to survive the TT stages.
They would be exposed in the TT stages, not unlike Rasmussen. But
there wouldn't be enough gap to miss the time limit in any flat stage.
Time happens on the hills. That's why the best tt rider in the Tour
this year has zero chance of winning, and why the best women riders
could finish the Tour under the limit.
> There's a gap. It's big enough. There's no way the most ideally-suited
> female cyclist would finish the TdF against what is essentially the 200
> best male cyclists on the planet. That's too elite a sampling of the
> bell curve, too far out on the right end of the tail for anyone on the
> female bell curve's right tail to catch them.
You know very well that among the '200 best male cyclists on the
plantet' (the TDF field) there are about 50 guys who can climb very
well and about 150 who ... not so much. Apart from the select handful
of men who can climb AND tt well (and thus compete for an overall win)
it's essentially two different races, a hill race and a flatland race,
with two different sets of personnel going after each. The climbers
hang on the back of the sprints and the sprinters are completely
overmatched in the mountains. I'm not sure if any woman could hang
with the 50 best climbers in the world, but they sure as heck could
make the sprinters look silly on the big climbs.
Robert
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 17:47:17
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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On Jul 13, 11:23 pm, "Fabrizio Mazzoleni" <jma...@comcast.com > wrote:
> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1184226090.691553.8550@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> < When it comes to riding a bike up a hill, the
> <gap between the sexes is not nearly as large as some of us clearly
> <believe.
>
> You may want to acually go and see a real bike race
> someday. You don't know what you're talking about.
You're right, nobody from the world of mtn bike racing
would ever go on to kick everybody's ass in the Tour.
Just doesn't happen.
I wonder if Davis could climb with Connie, back in
the day. If I every run into her again, I'll ask her.
Robert
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 01:21:11
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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On Jul 12, 9:28 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1184207641.197604.66...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> r15...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Jul 11, 5:24 pm, Antti Salonen <antti.salo...@helsinki.if.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
> > > be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
> > > is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
> > > isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
> > > France.
>
> > I'm sure there are lots of folks who feel that way, but they are not
> > people with any experience in the world of top-level endurance mtn
> > bike racing, where men and women race at the same time on the same
> > courses. Pretty tough to nurture the male delusions in such an arena.
> > Keep in mind that all the solo competitors in these races, in addition
> > to being tough as nails, are expected to climb well. The Tour is
> > different. There are hill climbers and guys who are not even expected
> > to make it over the mtns. I'm not saying women can match the top
> > males' speed in tt's, sprints, or climbs. But I have no doubt that
> > there are women who could finish under the time limit, something that
> > a lot of the 200 talented men in the Tour can not do or are unwilling
> > to do. There are women who could set a pace to make the sprinters puke
> > on the climbs, if they tried to keep up, just like the male climbers
> > will. It would be fun to watch this, but it wouldn't be fair. The
> > sprinters are a necessary and entertaining part of the cycling circus
> > and it wouldn't be fair to expose the poor fellows like that.
>
> > Robert
>
> Robert: to put it briefly, you're almost certainly wrong.
>
> Without in any way wanting to deprecate the superb achievements of many
> elite female athletes (all of whom can pretty much kick my sorry ass),
> the time cuts at TdF stages are set by a percentage of the winner's time.
>
> Jeannie Longo or any one of the several similarly-talented female racers
> could probably make the time cut for the Prologue. They might survive a
> stage or two. She would probably be DNF (time cut) sometime during the
> first week, and certainly as they went into the mountains.
>
> Put simply, the key physiological indicators for elite male and female
> athletes don't overlap:
>
> "Sleivert and Rowlands have suggested that research show minimal elite
> V02 max values range from 70-73 ml/kg/min for men and from 62-65
> ml/kg/min for women."
>
> http://www.computrainer.com/html/coaching_corner/hows_and_whys_of_cyc...
> .htm
>
> I can't find any handy watts/kg figures for elite women. But there's a
> gap.
>
> I looked up your endurance women, too. Over the same course, the last
> Solo 24hr worlds saw the male winner complete 30 laps, while the female
> leader finished 26. That's actually much better than I expected, as that
> would have been 6th place in the men's category. And for several
> reasons, I think that event would be about as good a gap as a woman
> could hope for in a bike race.
Yes, she unambiguously trounced several elites in a field of nothing
but ace climbers (while focused on riding a pace to victory in the
women's competition, remember, not the men's). Okay...Now, to simulate
Tour conditions, throw some 200-pound speedster non-climbers in there
and see how they stack up against Haywood. Not well at all, poor
fellows. Not nearly as well as Haywood stacks up against the fastest
men.
About 50 of the top endurance riders went down to Georgia thinking
they might come home with a World Championship. Almost 90% of them got
beat by a girl.
Again, I'm not denying there is a gap. I'm just contending that the
gap between the best men and the best women, considering that the most
important landscape features in this regard are repeated huge mountain
passes, is not as large as the gap between the best men and the slow-
climbing big men of the Tour, many of whom cannot begin to hope to
make it over those mountains under the limit.
Robert
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 01:38:57
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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In article <1184314871.366563.274590@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 12, 9:28 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > In article <1184207641.197604.66...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > r15...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Jul 11, 5:24 pm, Antti Salonen <antti.salo...@helsinki.if.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
> > > > be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
> > > > is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
> > > > isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
> > > > France.
> >
> > > I'm sure there are lots of folks who feel that way, but they are not
> > > people with any experience in the world of top-level endurance mtn
> > > bike racing, where men and women race at the same time on the same
> > > courses. Pretty tough to nurture the male delusions in such an arena.
> > > Keep in mind that all the solo competitors in these races, in addition
> > > to being tough as nails, are expected to climb well. The Tour is
> > > different. There are hill climbers and guys who are not even expected
> > > to make it over the mtns. I'm not saying women can match the top
> > > males' speed in tt's, sprints, or climbs. But I have no doubt that
> > > there are women who could finish under the time limit, something that
> > > a lot of the 200 talented men in the Tour can not do or are unwilling
> > > to do. There are women who could set a pace to make the sprinters puke
> > > on the climbs, if they tried to keep up, just like the male climbers
> > > will. It would be fun to watch this, but it wouldn't be fair. The
> > > sprinters are a necessary and entertaining part of the cycling circus
> > > and it wouldn't be fair to expose the poor fellows like that.
> >
> > > Robert
> >
> > Robert: to put it briefly, you're almost certainly wrong.
> >
> > Without in any way wanting to deprecate the superb achievements of many
> > elite female athletes (all of whom can pretty much kick my sorry ass),
> > the time cuts at TdF stages are set by a percentage of the winner's time.
> >
> > Jeannie Longo or any one of the several similarly-talented female racers
> > could probably make the time cut for the Prologue. They might survive a
> > stage or two. She would probably be DNF (time cut) sometime during the
> > first week, and certainly as they went into the mountains.
> >
> > Put simply, the key physiological indicators for elite male and female
> > athletes don't overlap:
> >
> > "Sleivert and Rowlands have suggested that research show minimal elite
> > V02 max values range from 70-73 ml/kg/min for men and from 62-65
> > ml/kg/min for women."
> >
> > http://www.computrainer.com/html/coaching_corner/hows_and_whys_of_cyc...
> > .htm
> >
> > I can't find any handy watts/kg figures for elite women. But there's a
> > gap.
> >
> > I looked up your endurance women, too. Over the same course, the last
> > Solo 24hr worlds saw the male winner complete 30 laps, while the female
> > leader finished 26. That's actually much better than I expected, as that
> > would have been 6th place in the men's category. And for several
> > reasons, I think that event would be about as good a gap as a woman
> > could hope for in a bike race.
>
> Yes, she unambiguously trounced several elites in a field of nothing
> but ace climbers (while focused on riding a pace to victory in the
> women's competition, remember, not the men's). Okay...Now, to simulate
> Tour conditions, throw some 200-pound speedster non-climbers in there
> and see how they stack up against Haywood. Not well at all, poor
> fellows. Not nearly as well as Haywood stacks up against the fastest
> men.
> About 50 of the top endurance riders went down to Georgia thinking
> they might come home with a World Championship. Almost 90% of them got
> beat by a girl.
Not to be rude to some excellent cyclists, but if they were world-class,
they wouldn't be doing 24-hour championships. Even Chris Eatough.
Instead, they'd be riding the UCI or Norba MTB series if they were good
enough.
And you know what happens if you're a World Champion MTBer? Then you're
probably good enough to become a pretty successful road racer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rasmussen
Not the best, mind you, but back-to-back spotted jerseys is nothing to
sneeze at.
My point is that 24 hour MTB championships are probably not elite or
deeply-contested enough to tell us much about the gaps we'd see between
the 200 best men and the best women.
> Again, I'm not denying there is a gap. I'm just contending that the
> gap between the best men and the best women, considering that the most
> important landscape features in this regard are repeated huge mountain
> passes, is not as large as the gap between the best men and the slow-
> climbing big men of the Tour, many of whom cannot begin to hope to
> make it over those mountains under the limit.
Any woman with the Watts/kg to climb through the mountains would not
have the raw Watts to survive the TT stages.
There's a gap. It's big enough. There's no way the most ideally-suited
female cyclist would finish the TdF against what is essentially the 200
best male cyclists on the planet. That's too elite a sampling of the
bell curve, too far out on the right end of the tail for anyone on the
female bell curve's right tail to catch them.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 10:30:55
From: Antti Salonen
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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r15757@aol.com wrote:
> Again, I'm not denying there is a gap. I'm just contending that the
> gap between the best men and the best women, considering that the most
> important landscape features in this regard are repeated huge mountain
> passes, is not as large as the gap between the best men and the slow-
> climbing big men of the Tour, many of whom cannot begin to hope to
> make it over those mountains under the limit.
There are not that many sprinters in the Tour who can not make it over
the mountains under the limit. Jan Kirsipuu was one notable exception,
who supposedly didn't have the ability despite winning many flat stages,
but many if not most riders in the autobus just conserve energy on the
climbs. If they can't win, better take it easy and make the others hurt
some other day.
However, I don't think the autobus goes all that slow. Certainly a lot
slower than the top climbers, but then those top climbers have a power
to weight ratio that is 10 to 15 % higher than best women.
In the end, it comes down to endurance. What may not be apparent is the
fact that of the 90 hours or so that the riders spend on the saddle
during the Tour, a majority are ridden at a pretty easy pace. Still a
few dozen riders, all of whom are elite athletes, abandon the Tour every
year essentially because of running out of gas. Even the best women
would suffer too much on too many stages to finish - or so I think.
Antti
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 06:13:38
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:34:07 -0700, Dane Buson wrote:
.
>
> I managed to sell (to a friend) a Dawes Super Galaxy that had been
> converted to singlespeed as a stealth bike. It does kind of hurt to let
> them go out into the world. *sniff*
I would cry. I wanted a Dawes so much when I was in England.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:41:30
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 11, 9:53 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Jul 8, 9:53 am, "Joe S." <no_...@nosuch.net> wrote:
>
> > Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
> Dear Joe,
>
> No.
>
> The women's version of the Tour is actually still running, but in a
> greatly abbreviated form. The lower speeds and shorter distances
> suggest that the women would have considerable trouble keeping up.
>
> Here's the first women's TDF:
>
> 1984 The first women's Tour de France covers a 990-km course and runs
> concurrently with the last two weeks of the men's Tour.
>
> American Marianne Martin claims the first victory in 29 hours, 39
> minutes, and 2 seconds.
>
> Today, the race is known as the Grande Boucle F=E9minine nternationale.
>
> http://www.wiredtowinthemovie.com/centurytour_xml.html
>
> A distance of 990km in 29.66 hours =3D 33.38 km/h, or 20.7 mph)
>
> Fignon won the 3,900 km 1984 TDF in 112.05 hours, 34.80 km/h, or 21.57
> mph, riding roughly four times as far in three weeks as the women rode
> in two weeks.
>
> Assuming that the women's winner would have been able keep up her 2-
> week 990 km pace of 33.38 km for the different 3,900 km of the men's
> Tour for 3 weeks (a huge assumption), she would have finished in
> 116.84 hours, about 4 hours and 48 minutes behind Fignon.
>
> More recent years of the women's tour are even harder to compare,
> since the event has shrunk to a 5-day event:
>
> http://www.velo-feminin.com/pageguide2.php3?id_article=3D738
>
> Before the drastic recent reduction, the women's Tour had 14 stages.
> In 2003, the stages averaged about 100 km per stage, roughly 60 miles
> per day:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/aug03/lgbf03/?id=3Ddefault
>
> That page will let you browse back through some previous women's tour
> distances.
>
> Here are the results for 2007 women's TDF:
>
> http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=3D11276
>
> The winner covered about 406 km in five days of racing in about 11.86
> hours, about 34.2 km/hour, or about 21.2 mph. Last year, the men's
> TDF covered 3.657 km, with Landis averaging 40.78 kmh:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/history/tdfhistory.html
>
> More support, more prize money, and more riders might improve things,
> but riders who average 34 km/h on only five 100 km stages aren't going
> to compete in the Tour de France.
Silly Carl, you can't compare the avg. speed of the all-mens' tour and
that of the all-womens' tour and conclude that the women couldn't keep
up with the men's tour. Because the winners in each will only ride as
fast as they need to in order to win. The only way to find out if
women could finish the men's tour would be to have some women in the
men's tour. But -- luckily for the sprinters, who have a hard enough
time as it is getting over the hills without some 110-pound chica
spinning effortlessly past them -- the Euros are busy destroying the
sport in other ways right now.
There is nothing magical about being a man that will help a 190-pound
tdf sprinter haul his dead weight up a mountainside ahead of a highly
trained and motivated natural-born female climber who is 70 or 80
pounds lighter. In the grand scheme there exists only a very small
percentage of racers, male or female, who could climb with someone
like Longo. The sprinters would explode their hearts like ol' John
Henry trying to keep up. When it comes to riding a bike up a hill, the
gap between the sexes is not nearly as large as some of us clearly
believe.
Robert
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 05:23:33
From: Fabrizio Mazzoleni
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1184226090.691553.8550@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
< When it comes to riding a bike up a hill, the
<gap between the sexes is not nearly as large as some of us clearly
<believe.
You may want to acually go and see a real bike race
someday. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:53:53
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 8, 9:53 am, "Joe S." <no_...@nosuch.net > wrote:
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
Dear Joe,
No.
The women's version of the Tour is actually still running, but in a
greatly abbreviated form. The lower speeds and shorter distances
suggest that the women would have considerable trouble keeping up.
Here's the first women's TDF:
1984 The first women's Tour de France covers a 990-km course and runs
concurrently with the last two weeks of the men's Tour.
American Marianne Martin claims the first victory in 29 hours, 39
minutes, and 2 seconds.
Today, the race is known as the Grande Boucle F=E9minine nternationale.
http://www.wiredtowinthemovie.com/centurytour_xml.html
A distance of 990km in 29.66 hours =3D 33.38 km/h, or 20.7 mph)
Fignon won the 3,900 km 1984 TDF in 112.05 hours, 34.80 km/h, or 21.57
mph, riding roughly four times as far in three weeks as the women rode
in two weeks.
Assuming that the women's winner would have been able keep up her 2-
week 990 km pace of 33.38 km for the different 3,900 km of the men's
Tour for 3 weeks (a huge assumption), she would have finished in
116.84 hours, about 4 hours and 48 minutes behind Fignon.
More recent years of the women's tour are even harder to compare,
since the event has shrunk to a 5-day event:
http://www.velo-feminin.com/pageguide2.php3?id_article=3D738
Before the drastic recent reduction, the women's Tour had 14 stages.
In 2003, the stages averaged about 100 km per stage, roughly 60 miles
per day:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/aug03/lgbf03/?id=3Ddefault
That page will let you browse back through some previous women's tour
distances.
Here are the results for 2007 women's TDF:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=3D11276
The winner covered about 406 km in five days of racing in about 11.86
hours, about 34.2 km/hour, or about 21.2 mph. Last year, the men's
TDF covered 3.657 km, with Landis averaging 40.78 kmh:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/history/tdfhistory.html
More support, more prize money, and more riders might improve things,
but riders who average 34 km/h on only five 100 km stages aren't going
to compete in the Tour de France.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 11 Jul 2007 19:34:01
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 11, 5:24 pm, Antti Salonen <antti.salo...@helsinki.if.invalid >
wrote:
> I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
> be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
> is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
> isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
> France.
I'm sure there are lots of folks who feel that way, but they are not
people with any experience in the world of top-level endurance mtn
bike racing, where men and women race at the same time on the same
courses. Pretty tough to nurture the male delusions in such an arena.
Keep in mind that all the solo competitors in these races, in addition
to being tough as nails, are expected to climb well. The Tour is
different. There are hill climbers and guys who are not even expected
to make it over the mtns. I'm not saying women can match the top
males' speed in tt's, sprints, or climbs. But I have no doubt that
there are women who could finish under the time limit, something that
a lot of the 200 talented men in the Tour can not do or are unwilling
to do. There are women who could set a pace to make the sprinters puke
on the climbs, if they tried to keep up, just like the male climbers
will. It would be fun to watch this, but it wouldn't be fair. The
sprinters are a necessary and entertaining part of the cycling circus
and it wouldn't be fair to expose the poor fellows like that.
Robert
> In the case of Longo, let's look at this year's French TT championships,
> where she finished a close second. Her average speed over 29 km was
> about 39.1 km/h on what was likely a pretty tough course. Men's
> championships was won at an average speed of 46.2 km/h over 44 km. I
> don't know how similar the courses were but you'll find similar speed
> differences in other national championships as well. That's a big
> difference, and on climbs it's likely to be even greater because of
> women's higher body fat.
> In addition, even the best female cyclists aren't used to the kind of
> daily mileage covered in the Tour de France, because women's races in
> cycling are a lot shorter.
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 08:26:01
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1184207641.197604.66380@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 5:24 pm, Antti Salonen <antti.salo...@helsinki.if.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
>> be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
>> is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
>> isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
>> France.
>
> I'm sure there are lots of folks who feel that way, but they are not
> people with any experience in the world of top-level endurance mtn
> bike racing, where men and women race at the same time on the same
> courses. Pretty tough to nurture the male delusions in such an arena.
> Keep in mind that all the solo competitors in these races, in addition
> to being tough as nails, are expected to climb well. The Tour is
> different. There are hill climbers and guys who are not even expected
> to make it over the mtns. I'm not saying women can match the top
> males' speed in tt's, sprints, or climbs. But I have no doubt that
> there are women who could finish under the time limit, something that
> a lot of the 200 talented men in the Tour can not do or are unwilling
> to do. There are women who could set a pace to make the sprinters puke
> on the climbs, if they tried to keep up, just like the male climbers
> will. It would be fun to watch this, but it wouldn't be fair. The
> sprinters are a necessary and entertaining part of the cycling circus
> and it wouldn't be fair to expose the poor fellows like that.
>
> Robert
>
>
Women can race the Tour ROUTE. That's not a question. Being able to race it
at the pace set by the men is another matter. Could even the best female
rider hang with the peloton on a fast day w/o being dropped and not
finishing in time?
>
>> In the case of Longo, let's look at this year's French TT championships,
>> where she finished a close second. Her average speed over 29 km was
>> about 39.1 km/h on what was likely a pretty tough course. Men's
>> championships was won at an average speed of 46.2 km/h over 44 km. I
>> don't know how similar the courses were but you'll find similar speed
>> differences in other national championships as well. That's a big
>> difference, and on climbs it's likely to be even greater because of
>> women's higher body fat.
>
>> In addition, even the best female cyclists aren't used to the kind of
>> daily mileage covered in the Tour de France, because women's races in
>> cycling are a lot shorter.
>
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 03:28:41
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
In article <1184207641.197604.66380@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 11, 5:24 pm, Antti Salonen <antti.salo...@helsinki.if.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
> > be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
> > is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
> > isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
> > France.
>
> I'm sure there are lots of folks who feel that way, but they are not
> people with any experience in the world of top-level endurance mtn
> bike racing, where men and women race at the same time on the same
> courses. Pretty tough to nurture the male delusions in such an arena.
> Keep in mind that all the solo competitors in these races, in addition
> to being tough as nails, are expected to climb well. The Tour is
> different. There are hill climbers and guys who are not even expected
> to make it over the mtns. I'm not saying women can match the top
> males' speed in tt's, sprints, or climbs. But I have no doubt that
> there are women who could finish under the time limit, something that
> a lot of the 200 talented men in the Tour can not do or are unwilling
> to do. There are women who could set a pace to make the sprinters puke
> on the climbs, if they tried to keep up, just like the male climbers
> will. It would be fun to watch this, but it wouldn't be fair. The
> sprinters are a necessary and entertaining part of the cycling circus
> and it wouldn't be fair to expose the poor fellows like that.
>
> Robert
Robert: to put it briefly, you're almost certainly wrong.
Without in any way wanting to deprecate the superb achievements of many
elite female athletes (all of whom can pretty much kick my sorry ass),
the time cuts at TdF stages are set by a percentage of the winner's time.
Jeannie Longo or any one of the several similarly-talented female racers
could probably make the time cut for the Prologue. They might survive a
stage or two. She would probably be DNF (time cut) sometime during the
first week, and certainly as they went into the mountains.
Put simply, the key physiological indicators for elite male and female
athletes don't overlap:
"Sleivert and Rowlands have suggested that research show minimal elite
V02 max values range from 70-73 ml/kg/min for men and from 62-65
ml/kg/min for women."
http://www.computrainer.com/html/coaching_corner/hows_and_whys_of_cycling
.htm
I can't find any handy watts/kg figures for elite women. But there's a
gap.
I looked up your endurance women, too. Over the same course, the last
Solo 24hr worlds saw the male winner complete 30 laps, while the female
leader finished 26. That's actually much better than I expected, as that
would have been 6th place in the men's category. And for several
reasons, I think that event would be about as good a gap as a woman
could hope for in a bike race.
long distance running (marathon and more) sees about a 10% gap in the
finish times of top men and top women. It does not fall as the length of
the event increases.
> > In the case of Longo, let's look at this year's French TT championships,
> > where she finished a close second. Her average speed over 29 km was
> > about 39.1 km/h on what was likely a pretty tough course. Men's
> > championships was won at an average speed of 46.2 km/h over 44 km. I
> > don't know how similar the courses were but you'll find similar speed
> > differences in other national championships as well. That's a big
> > difference, and on climbs it's likely to be even greater because of
> > women's higher body fat.
One of my club's Juniors just came back from the national TT
championships with a Bronze. He averaged 41.7 km/h over 20km. In other
words, he's already performing at a level on par with the fastest women
on the planet, and he can't drink beer legally.
What's key here is the overlapping bell curves. All elite male athletes
are way over on the right tail of the bell curve. Even though the women
are in the same place on their curve (and ahead of 99% of all men),
they're still way behind the elite men.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 22:52:26
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 10, 5:28 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:12 pm, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > The reason women don't race in the Tour is so tender audiences don't
> > have to deal with psychologically mind-bending sights like a 76-year-
> > old Longo climbing away from Tom Boonen on the Galibier, just before
> > Boonen drops out.
>
> (She's only 49.) And she's still competing (she won the French
> National road race and TT last year), so, yeah, I'd be curious to see
> how she would still do with big stage races.
I think she or any other top female competitor would have almost no
chance of beating the top men, but she wouldn't drop out and would
likely end higher on the GC than at least dozens, and would crush a
lot of egos on the way.
I'm not sure the world is ready for that. How does Petacchi's hero-
status survive being dropped in the Alps by a pack of girls?
Cancelarra looks great in the jersey now, but how does he look
struggling to hold a pace set by Fabi Luperini?
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 23:24:43
From: Antti Salonen
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> I think she or any other top female competitor would have almost no
> chance of beating the top men, but she wouldn't drop out and would
> likely end higher on the GC than at least dozens, and would crush a
> lot of egos on the way.
I'd keep in mind that all of the 200 men in Tour de France are likely to
be well above average in terms of talent, and every single one of them
is in top condition. In fact I'm pretty confident to claim that there
isn't a single female cyclist who would be able to finish the Tour de
France.
In the case of Longo, let's look at this year's French TT championships,
where she finished a close second. Her average speed over 29 km was
about 39.1 km/h on what was likely a pretty tough course. Men's
championships was won at an average speed of 46.2 km/h over 44 km. I
don't know how similar the courses were but you'll find similar speed
differences in other national championships as well. That's a big
difference, and on climbs it's likely to be even greater because of
women's higher body fat.
In addition, even the best female cyclists aren't used to the kind of
daily mileage covered in the Tour de France, because women's races in
cycling are a lot shorter.
Antti
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:48:39
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:52:26 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
> I think she or any other top female competitor would have almost no
> chance of beating the top men, but she wouldn't drop out and would
> likely end higher on the GC than at least dozens, and would crush a
> lot of egos on the way.
Sure, but what would she do for the team leaders? No-one's going to
employ a riders just to not finish last, even if it /would/ create
headlines and laughing-stocks :-)
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:19:22
From: Cathy Kearns
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Michael Warner" <mvw@westnet.com.au > wrote in message
news:1olwyk722nttr$.1pkt4h2qpgsnt$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:52:26 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I think she or any other top female competitor would have almost no
>> chance of beating the top men, but she wouldn't drop out and would
>> likely end higher on the GC than at least dozens, and would crush a
>> lot of egos on the way.
>
> Sure, but what would she do for the team leaders? No-one's going to
> employ a riders just to not finish last, even if it /would/ create
> headlines and laughing-stocks :-)
Well, obviously for a team that doesn't get a lot of camera time now it
would increase their sponsors camera time, get the announcers to mention
them more, and get way more press. There a more than a few teams that have
little chance of winning, it could be a way for the sponsors to hang on.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 16:02:39
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:19:22 GMT, Cathy Kearns wrote:
> Well, obviously for a team that doesn't get a lot of camera time now it
> would increase their sponsors camera time, get the announcers to mention
> them more, and get way more press. There a more than a few teams that have
> little chance of winning, it could be a way for the sponsors to hang on.
Good point.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 13:21:14
From: Jason in Indy
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
There are points pro and con on this. However, the "camera time" is without
question. Does the name "Danica Patrick" ring any bells? She sure does for
Indy Car Racing. That girl is golden just for the positive attention she
brings to the sport. It doesn't hurt that she can actually race too.
Jason in Indy
"Michael Warner" <mvw@westnet.com.au > wrote in message
news:113bvvqnmkfr6.jqr7r4eb8a8z.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:19:22 GMT, Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
>> Well, obviously for a team that doesn't get a lot of camera time now it
>> would increase their sponsors camera time, get the announcers to mention
>> them more, and get way more press. There a more than a few teams that
>> have
>> little chance of winning, it could be a way for the sponsors to hang on.
>
> Good point.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 01:06:06
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Michael Warner wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:19:22 GMT, Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
>> Well, obviously for a team that doesn't get a lot of camera time now
>> it would increase their sponsors camera time, get the announcers to
>> mention them more, and get way more press. There a more than a few
>> teams that have little chance of winning, it could be a way for the
>> sponsors to hang on.
>
> Good point.
Not really. Remember, there are time limits on the TdF stages. You finish
too far back, you are out of the race (unless the organizers allow an
exception).
Would this happen? It seems likely, based on Carl Fogel's post in this
thread.
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 18:35:40
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:53:11 -0400, "Joe S." <no_one@nosuch.net >
wrote:
>Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
Cyclingnews, July 11, 2007
Landis was asked if he is training or riding his mountain bike, to
which he responded by explaining his result at the Teva Mountain
Games last month. "It's not so easy. Plus I was beaten by two girls!"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/landis_booksigning_07
--
zk
|
| | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 08:28:36
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com > wrote in message
news:gsc893dv384q5hb9u03l1ac7184tt91prk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:53:11 -0400, "Joe S." <no_one@nosuch.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>>
> Cyclingnews, July 11, 2007
>
> Landis was asked if he is training or riding his mountain bike, to
> which he responded by explaining his result at the Teva Mountain
> Games last month. "It's not so easy. Plus I was beaten by two girls!"
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/landis_booksigning_07
> --
So a guy who is just coming off hip resurfacing and is de-trained lost a
race?
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 00:07:25
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:28:52 -0700, Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:12 pm, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> The reason women don't race in the Tour is so tender audiences don't
>> have to deal with psychologically mind-bending sights like a 76-year-
>> old Longo climbing away from Tom Boonen on the Galibier, just before
>> Boonen drops out.
>
> (She's only 49.) And she's still competing (she won the French
> National road race and TT last year), so, yeah, I'd be curious to see
> how she would still do with big stage races.
She's amazing. She could ride most of humanity into the ground.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 16:28:52
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 9, 5:12 pm, r15...@aol.com wrote:
> The reason women don't race in the Tour is so tender audiences don't
> have to deal with psychologically mind-bending sights like a 76-year-
> old Longo climbing away from Tom Boonen on the Galibier, just before
> Boonen drops out.
(She's only 49.) And she's still competing (she won the French
National road race and TT last year), so, yeah, I'd be curious to see
how she would still do with big stage races.
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 22:24:03
From: anth
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 08:51 +0930, Michael Warner wrote:
> From what I've read, the theories promoted by the Atkins crowd are bunk,
> and the diet works because /proteins/ make us feel fuller than carbs for
> the same energy content.
Yep, and also cutting out carbs means cutting out a lot of foods,
another reason why people on that diet tend to eat less.
|
| |
Date: 09 Jul 2007 17:12:37
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Jul 8, 3:19 pm, Dane Buson <d...@unseen.edu > wrote:
> Joe S. <no_...@nosuch.net> wrote:
> > Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
Hmm, not exactly. Physiologically, this power-to-weight ratio thing
excludes many of the males who are entered in the Tour. Notice the
large numbers of sprinter types who don't make it over the mountains
and drop out. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a woman to win a
field sprint, but there are certainly women who would have a far
easier time finishing the race than many of the men who actually start
the event. Have no illusions about fast female climbers, they are just
plain fast climbers. For proof see the only venue where men and women
line up together, endurance mtb races. There the strongest females
regularly beat a substantial portion of the men's pro-elite field.
Power, yes. Endurance, yes. Toughness, yes.
The reason women don't race in the Tour is so tender audiences don't
have to deal with psychologically mind-bending sights like a 76-year-
old Longo climbing away from Tom Boonen on the Galibier, just before
Boonen drops out.
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 08:12:56
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
>> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
>> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
>
> Hmm, not exactly. Physiologically, this power-to-weight ratio thing
> excludes many of the males who are entered in the Tour. Notice the
> large numbers of sprinter types who don't make it over the mountains
> and drop out. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a woman to win a
> field sprint, but there are certainly women who would have a far
> easier time finishing the race than many of the men who actually start
> the event. Have no illusions about fast female climbers, they are just
> plain fast climbers. For proof see the only venue where men and women
> line up together, endurance mtb races. There the strongest females
> regularly beat a substantial portion of the men's pro-elite field.
> Power, yes. Endurance, yes. Toughness, yes.
>>
> Robert
This discussion brings me back to the discussion about 15 years ago on
whether to allow females to play high school football in Texas. Men flooded
the radio talk shows saying they didn't want their "105 pound daughter to
get hit by some 250 pound lineman." But what they were overlooking was that
all women are not the same size!
What made them think that a 105 pound woman would want to play football in
the first place? I have seen plenty of women who are much larger than
that--and muscular to boot.
So, all this talk of all males being some thing and all females being
something do not allow for the various differences within the genders. All
men do not have "all fast twitch fibers" and all women do not have "all slow
twitch fibers."
Oh, and the females were allowed to play football and there were no 105
pound girls out on the field. All the alarmist voices faded away and it's
not a big deal any more. I don't recall seeing any local girls on football
teams, but all they asked for was the possibility. In fact, there is a
women's professional football team in Dallas. They have a league and go out
and have fun on the weekends.
Pat
>
>
>
>
|
| | |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 14:12:06
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:12:37 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
> Hmm, not exactly. Physiologically, this power-to-weight ratio thing
> excludes many of the males who are entered in the Tour. Notice the
> large numbers of sprinter types who don't make it over the mountains
> and drop out.
Ah, but isn't that also a question of the /kind/ of power they have -
too few slow-twitch muscle fibres, and unhelpful muscles in places
like their arms? A little guy like Robbie McEwen ought to be a good
climber, but AFAIK he suffers nearly as much as the big, heavy
sprinters.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:08:24
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Michael Warner wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:12:37 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Hmm, not exactly. Physiologically, this power-to-weight ratio thing
>> excludes many of the males who are entered in the Tour. Notice the
>> large numbers of sprinter types who don't make it over the mountains
>> and drop out.
>
> Ah, but isn't that also a question of the /kind/ of power they have -
> too few slow-twitch muscle fibres, and unhelpful muscles in places
> like their arms? A little guy like Robbie McEwen ought to be a good
> climber, but AFAIK he suffers nearly as much as the big, heavy
> sprinters.
I've wondered about McEwen myself. It could be that as a climber he'd be in
the 90% percentile, but as a sprinter he's 99th and so he's emphasized that
aspect. Better to be a really, really, really good sprinter than a really
good climber, from an income standpoint.
The sprinters take it as easy as possible (which isn't very easy) on the
climbing stages so they have more left for the later sprint stages.
Mike "I'm not suffering on this climb. I'm conserving energy" Kruger
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| | | |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 22:13:11
From:
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au > wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:12:37 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
> > Hmm, not exactly. Physiologically, this power-to-weight ratio thing
> > excludes many of the males who are entered in the Tour. Notice the
> > large numbers of sprinter types who don't make it over the mountains
> > and drop out.
> Ah, but isn't that also a question of the /kind/ of power they have -
> too few slow-twitch muscle fibres, and unhelpful muscles in places
> like their arms? A little guy like Robbie McEwen ought to be a good
> climber, but AFAIK he suffers nearly as much as the big, heavy
> sprinters.
We seem to have established the power-to-weight thing, and that there
may be exceptions to it.
So the question arises, are women PERMITTED to race in the TdF?
Bill
__o
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 10:12:27
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:13:11 +0000 (UTC), D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch wrote:
> So the question arises, are women PERMITTED to race in the TdF?
I would bet that, if a team hired a woman and submitted her name in their
tour lineup, the race organizers wouldn't have any credible grounds for
refusing to accept her.
|
| |
Date: 08 Jul 2007 23:22:29
From: BobT
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Joe S." <no_one@nosuch.net > wrote in message
news:f6r19401qlp@news5.newsguy.com...
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
>
>
They have their own race:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Grande_Boucle_F%C3%A9minine_Internationale
BobT
|
| |
Date: 08 Jul 2007 21:05:05
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
In article <153j7cslji2kr.w10ak1g2pjmc$.dlg@40tude.net >,
Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au > writes:
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:19:26 -0700, Dane Buson wrote:
>
>> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
>> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
>
> Except Chinese swimmers. Some of them should give it a try.
Pro Women's softball can be hell bent for leather.
I'm pretty sure many of those players can give some
of the MLB guys a fair run fer their money.
But stage races such as Le Tour are all about keeping
going despite depleting the resources of the body.
Men & women deplete (and expend power) differently, so
it just wouldn't be a fair competition to combine genders.
Maybe women competitors don't have as much opportunity to
compete in road race venues as men? I dunno. I do
recognize that women have a very strong presence in XC
and DH competition -- venues which are much more technical
in terms of handling terrain, than stage road races.
Locally, women /do/ compete in circuit road races.
Many of 'em come from the XC and DH world, where they
have already established some highly respectable creds.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
|
| | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 08:21:55
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:h5cs6f.482.ln@vcn.bc.ca...
> In article <153j7cslji2kr.w10ak1g2pjmc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au> writes:
>> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:19:26 -0700, Dane Buson wrote:
>>
>>> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
>>> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
>>
>> Except Chinese swimmers. Some of them should give it a try.
>
> Pro Women's softball can be hell bent for leather.
> I'm pretty sure many of those players can give some
> of the MLB guys a fair run fer their money.
I doubt that. The power it takes to hit a baseball out of the park with a
wooden bat dwarfs what it takes to hit a softball with an aluminum bat. Look
at the scores in men's college baseball---both teams in double digits is a
common occurance. The problem MLB players have is hitting the ball because
the timing is different. But a pro men's softball team would beat a pro
women's team.
> But stage races such as Le Tour are all about keeping
> going despite depleting the resources of the body.
> Men & women deplete (and expend power) differently, so
> it just wouldn't be a fair competition to combine genders.
>
> Maybe women competitors don't have as much opportunity to
> compete in road race venues as men? I dunno. I do
> recognize that women have a very strong presence in XC
> and DH competition -- venues which are much more technical
> in terms of handling terrain, than stage road races.
>
> Locally, women /do/ compete in circuit road races.
> Many of 'em come from the XC and DH world, where they
> have already established some highly respectable creds.
An elite male athlete will always beat the elite female athlete. An elite
female athlete can beat a really good amateur male athlete. But if you look
at any event in which men and women do the same distance(marathons,
triathlons), the best time is always turned in by a male athlete. It's just
physiology.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Jul 2007 14:42:06
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:05:05 -0700, Tom Keats wrote:
> But stage races such as Le Tour are all about keeping
> going despite depleting the resources of the body.
> Men & women deplete (and expend power) differently
I haven't heard that. I thought the fundamental problem for
women was that they need more overall body fat to
remain strong and healthy, and therefore can't match elite
men in PTW or endurance.
> Maybe women competitors don't have as much opportunity to
> compete in road race venues as men? I dunno. I do
> recognize that women have a very strong presence in XC
> and DH competition -- venues which are much more technical
> in terms of handling terrain, than stage road races.
Yep, that makes sense. FWIW, I've found that women are much
less likely to abandon or not turn up to a ride because of bad
weather, tiredness etc. I suspect they're tougher than us in
other ways :-)
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Jul 2007 07:14:49
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
" >
>> But stage races such as Le Tour are all about keeping
>> going despite depleting the resources of the body.
>> Men & women deplete (and expend power) differently
>
> I haven't heard that. I thought the fundamental problem for
> women was that they need more overall body fat to
> remain strong and healthy, and therefore can't match elite
> men in PTW or endurance.
It's the extra body fat that gives women the edge in endurance sports. Think
long distance swimming, for example.
|
| | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 08:22:56
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Pat" <Pat@starrynight.com > wrote in message
news:5fen6mF32hitpU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> ">
>>> But stage races such as Le Tour are all about keeping
>>> going despite depleting the resources of the body.
>>> Men & women deplete (and expend power) differently
>>
>> I haven't heard that. I thought the fundamental problem for
>> women was that they need more overall body fat to
>> remain strong and healthy, and therefore can't match elite
>> men in PTW or endurance.
>
> It's the extra body fat that gives women the edge in endurance sports.
> Think long distance swimming, for example.
>
>
Then why don't women turn in the best times in the Ironman?
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 07:58:10
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 07:14:49 -0600, Pat wrote:
> It's the extra body fat that gives women the edge in endurance sports. Think
> long distance swimming, for example.
Isn't swimming a special case where extra body fat and lower bone density
are helpful because they increase buoyancy? You'd have to show that over
a range of sports and lab tests, and I don't see how fat helps endurance
except at very low levels of exertion.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 17:42:23
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
>
>> It's the extra body fat that gives women the edge in endurance sports.
>> Think
>> long distance swimming, for example.
>
> Isn't swimming a special case where extra body fat and lower bone density
> are helpful because they increase buoyancy? You'd have to show that over
> a range of sports and lab tests, and I don't see how fat helps endurance
> except at very low levels of exertion.
Go over and read about the theory behind the Atkins diet, then. By starving
themselves of carbs, it forces the body to utilize fats for energy. Some
theorize that is why our ancestors tried to be fat--to have stored energy
for the lean times.
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Date: 10 Jul 2007 08:51:30
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:42:23 -0600, Pat wrote:
> Go over and read about the theory behind the Atkins diet, then. By starving
> themselves of carbs, it forces the body to utilize fats for energy. Some
> theorize that is why our ancestors tried to be fat--to have stored energy
> for the lean times.
From what I've read, the theories promoted by the Atkins crowd are bunk,
and the diet works because /proteins/ make us feel fuller than carbs for
the same energy content. The higher fat intake isn't beneficial, and can
cause health problems.
Of course stored fat is useful, but only at low levels of exertion, such as
when walking or generally staying alive. We can't burn it very quickly.
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Date: 10 Jul 2007 08:06:18
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
>
> From what I've read, the theories promoted by the Atkins crowd are bunk,
> and the diet works because /proteins/ make us feel fuller than carbs for
> the same energy content. The higher fat intake isn't beneficial, and can
> cause health problems.
>
> Of course stored fat is useful, but only at low levels of exertion, such
> as
> when walking or generally staying alive. We can't burn it very quickly.
Well, you haven't been reading the right articles, then. All carbs are not
cut out. Higher fat intake seems to actually lower cholesterol levels. Sure,
you can't burn stored fat quickly, but you can burn it if your body has been
conditioned to do so faster. I am not diabetic, but that diet has worked
wonders for those who are. Also, the diet has been around for over 50
years--pre-dating Atkins, even.
Pat in TX
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Date: 10 Jul 2007 23:03:22
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:06:18 -0600, Pat wrote:
> Well, you haven't been reading the right articles, then. All carbs are not
> cut out.
I didn't say they were, but they're cut back heavily in favour of protein
and fat.
> Higher fat intake seems to actually lower cholesterol levels. Sure,
> you can't burn stored fat quickly, but you can burn it if your body has been
> conditioned to do so faster.
Are you sure this is possible? Has ithis kind of metabolic training been
demonstrated in any study?
> I am not diabetic, but that diet has worked
> wonders for those who are.
Well, of course, since when most people think carbs they mean /refined/
carbs, which are a problem for diabetics. My mother has Type I juvenile
diabetes, so I know a fair bit about it. She doesn't eat more fat, but
certainly avoids refined carbs and favours proteins.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 00:35:07
From: Mike A Schwab
Subject: Yuba bikes
|
On Jul 8, 6:16 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> BTW, have you sneaked a peek at that Yuba Mundo utility bike yet?http://yubaride.com/utility-bicycles-models.html
>
> Whaddaya think? Okay, okay. My ulterior motive is to
> get somebody to acquire one and post a review. I can
> be such a snake-in-the-grass at times.
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> I'm really at:
> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
Made by a branch of xtracycle, so the performance chareteristics would
be similar. Probably more solid due to single frame.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 16:16:11
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
In article <uv08m4-136.ln1@curare.zuvembi.homelinux.org >,
Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu > writes:
> Joe S. <no_one@nosuch.net> wrote:
>> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
This thread got me wondering if there are any
women Kierin racers, so I looked it up:
http://www.keirinberlin.de/Keirin_Racing_En2.html
"In 1969 women racers were taken off the Keirin registers.
Women's racing was stopped due to a lack of interest
which resulted mainly from the lower level of performance,
in comparison to men's Keirin."
That's too bad, 'cuz I know women can compete spectacularly.
I mean, look at Missy Giove for example.
BTW, have you sneaked a peek at that Yuba Mundo utility bike yet?
http://yubaride.com/utility-bicycles-models.html
Whaddaya think? Okay, okay. My ulterior motive is to
get somebody to acquire one and post a review. I can
be such a snake-in-the-grass at times.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 13:34:07
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> BTW, have you sneaked a peek at that Yuba Mundo utility bike yet?
> http://yubaride.com/utility-bicycles-models.html
Yes, it's pretty interesting. Kind of like a slightly lower end Big
Dummy. It's pretty cool, but a fully built Xtracycle is a bit cheaper.
> Whaddaya think? Okay, okay. My ulterior motive is to get somebody to
> acquire one and post a review. I can be such a snake-in-the-grass at
> times.
I'm currently in the phase of getting *rid* of bikes, instead of
acquiring them. The last thing I need is encouragement getting more.
I managed to sell (to a friend) a Dawes Super Galaxy that had been
converted to singlespeed as a stealth bike. It does kind of hurt to let
them go out into the world. *sniff*
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"One of the most common of all diseases is diagnosis."
-Karl Kraus
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 17:51:49
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:34:07 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu >
wrote:
>Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> BTW, have you sneaked a peek at that Yuba Mundo utility bike yet?
>> http://yubaride.com/utility-bicycles-models.html
>
>Yes, it's pretty interesting. Kind of like a slightly lower end Big
>Dummy. It's pretty cool, but a fully built Xtracycle is a bit cheaper.
>
It's an off shoot of Xtracycle's "Worldbike" program wherein they
provide Africans with cargo and taxi bikes.
It looks like it would be stiffer than any frame with a bolted-on
Xtracycle and a nice design for inspired hacks. Another cargo design
that looked good was, IIRC, built as part of a training program on a
SW Indian Reservation. It was shown at the NAHMBS.
>> Whaddaya think? Okay, okay. My ulterior motive is to get somebody to
>> acquire one and post a review. I can be such a snake-in-the-grass at
>> times.
>
>I'm currently in the phase of getting *rid* of bikes, instead of
>acquiring them. The last thing I need is encouragement getting more.
>
>I managed to sell (to a friend) a Dawes Super Galaxy that had been
>converted to singlespeed as a stealth bike. It does kind of hurt to let
>them go out into the world. *sniff*
I'm ultimately opting for five bikes and consider four as the bare
minimum. Plus one always needs a project bike. By dismantling a few
bikes, I only have 7 of eleven ready to ride today.
Though there may be some extra frames, plenty of wheels and enough
parts to build up a few more bikes, but what's the point? Admitting
to fewer than a dozen bikes means I don't need a twelve-step program.
Okay, one bike I'd readily sell but I'm weighing the emotional ties
to one of my old classic road bikes.
I'm considering offering it in trade, sans saddle, for a friend's
Pedersen after which I still lust. He doesn't ride it and I've been
having to dust the bike I'd be offering. Though his Pedersen is a bit
tall with 700C wheels, it could be down-sized using 650 or 26" wheels
with hub brakes. That bike could make it into the "final five".
Like you say, it's sometimes hard to let-go of a bike with a history.
My Xtracycle Free Radical is a keeper until something better comes
along to replace "das mule".
--
zk
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 22:52:59
From: RBrickston
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
In article <f6r19401qlp@news5.newsguy.com >, no_one@nosuch.net says...
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
>
>
>
No, they don't have the balls... (or ball in the case of a past
participant).
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 14:19:26
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Joe S. <no_one@nosuch.net > wrote:
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Roses are red, violets are blue,
I'm a schitzophrenic, and so am I."
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 12:53:16
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:19:26 -0700, Dane Buson wrote:
> Nope. In bicycle racing like the Tour, power to weight ratio is a huge
> determiner. Physiologically this excludes females.
Except Chinese swimmers. Some of them should give it a try.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 11:41:04
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Joe S. wrote:
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
Not unless the drugs have /really/ serious side-effects.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 13:36:50
From: Grand Poobah
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
"Joe S." <no_one@nosuch.net > wrote in message
news:f6r19401qlp@news5.newsguy.com...
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
>
dey belong inna kitckn barefut makin' babies
anon.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 15:58:03
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
Joe S. wrote:
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
No. IIRC there was a separate event for women, but I don't think its
currently being run.
--
Mike Kruger
In Puritan New England, Christmas wasn't even a legal holiday until 1856
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 15:56:46
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: Female riders in the Tour???
|
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:53:11 -0400, Joe S. wrote:
> Are there female riders in the Tour de France?
No.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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