Floyd's Out...

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Date: 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Floyd's Out...

http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.

Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
five -- on his skin?)

It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
three days?)...

Bill S.

Date: 09 Aug 2006 17:13:25
From: cc
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Date: 06 Aug 2006 22:21:04
From: Blair P. Houghton
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <afecd2te4n4l6u3o5jma05u525lueu0lb7@4ax.com>,
> carlfogel@comcast.net writes:
\ > > Yes, Cobb played in a much rougher era:
>
> If this was the '70s and I were a film producer doing
> "The Ty Cobb Story", I'd want Gene Hackman.

They waited until the 90s and got Tommy Lee Jones instead.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109450/

--Blair

Date: 06 Aug 2006 23:29:21
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On 6 Aug 2006 22:21:04 -0700, "Blair P. Houghton"
<blair.houghton@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>Tom Keats wrote:
>> In article <afecd2te4n4l6u3o5jma05u525lueu0lb7@4ax.com>,
>> carlfogel@comcast.net writes:
>\> > Yes, Cobb played in a much rougher era:
>>
>> If this was the '70s and I were a film producer doing
>> "The Ty Cobb Story", I'd want Gene Hackman.
>
>They waited until the 90s and got Tommy Lee Jones instead.
>
>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109450/
>
>--Blair

Dear Tom & Blair,

Bah!

I'd wait until 1951 and see Cobb himself (uncredited) in "Angels in
the Outfield":

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043286/combined

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:16:52
From: Ted
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

My pituitary patients are much more aggressive when they take
testosterone. Their wives like them much more when they are on low
doses or off the stuff. The men admit that they are much more
aggressive drivers and have more poorly controlled tempers and actually
like themselves better when they are off.

Ted.

Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:23:15
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Sandy wrote:

> Sorry, but it's their job, income, service to sponsors to be available
> for the crush that follows. Easy way out - don't win anything. Or,
> ride stritcly amateur, and only your girlfriend greets you (and moves
> away from the sweating, stinking, unpleasant mess before her eyes).

No it isn't. Their job is to ride.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 06 Aug 2006 22:04:05
From: M. Bakunin
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <1154917395.648080.277990@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com > wrote:

> > Sorry, but it's their job, income, service to sponsors to be available
> > for the crush that follows. Easy way out - don't win anything. Or,
> > ride stritcly amateur, and only your girlfriend greets you (and moves
> > away from the sweating, stinking, unpleasant mess before her eyes).
>
> No it isn't. Their job is to ride.

This time is long gone. It's a little bit more complex now. And it's not
a job at this level, it's a business. That's why they have coaches,
lawyers (how many Landis, Armstrong, Ullrich, etc... have?), financial
advisors, managers, etc... etc...
They are not riding for the glory and a cup. It's big money. It's big
business. That's the reason also for the doping and drugs. So their
'job' description certainly includes an effort to be courteous,
civilized and saleable. If not they would not make money selling their
pictures to be displayed along with their signatures on anything from
bicycling goods to cereals. You really think a sponsor would spend
millions on a rider acting like an asshole in public?
Riding and trying to win is only part of their job. You didn't watch the
sleazy tv series on Armstrong doing commercials for cars and other goods?
Should give you a clue about why they are so competitive and ready, for
some, to cross over to doping. Yes, "their job is riding".

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 18:12:08
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <afecd2te4n4l6u3o5jma05u525lueu0lb7@4ax.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net writes:

> Dear Tom,
>
> Yes, Cobb played in a much rougher era:

If this was the '70s and I were a film producer doing
"The Ty Cobb Story", I'd want Gene Hackman.

Thank you again for the lovely baseball URLs and info.

"Cry 'hammock', and let slip the Boys of Summer,"
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 06 Aug 2006 14:25:16
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Peter wrote:
> "landotter" <landotter@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154810676.662294.12660@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> >> bicycle_disciple wrote:
> >> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> >
> > His testosterone level was elevated, but it wan't off the chart, and no
> > where near the levels of some pro bodybuilders.
> >
> well that's ok then...
> peter

Dear Peter,

Damn straight, as ge Simpson says in "The Strong Arms of the Ma":

***

ge's menu for muscles: "A little of this and a little of that.
Bulkenoids for my lats, mesomax for my delts, and estrogen blockers for
that minty taste."

***

Homer: 'Morning kids, I made your lunches. They're on the table.

(Bart reaches into his lunch bag and finds a five-dollar bill.)

Bart: Huh? Why didn't Mom make our lunch?

Homer: She had a lot of stuff to shave.

***

[Bodybuilding contest] Announcer: . . . in second place, ge Simpson!

Bart: Second place? Oh, man! This'll just encourage her.

Lisa: I'm tired of her criticizing my saggy glutes.

Homer: Quiet! Her muscular ears can hear us!

***

[Post-contest congratulations at Moe's Bar]

Homer: Oh. I'm so proud of you, honey. You bulked up, but managed to
keep your femininity.

ge: (grabbing him by lapels angrily) And that's why I didn't win!

Homer: Sorry, sir, sorry!

ge: Starting tomorrow, I'm going to up my glyco-load, use a denser
ripping gel . . .

Homer: Denser?

ge: Damn straight! I didn't sacrifice my period for second place!

(She pounds the bar with her fist. There is an uncomfortable silence in
the bar.)

ge: (laughing nervously) I hear that!

***

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Aug 2006 09:47:08
From: ackfugue
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

I saw what you refer to, here. I saw the throwing of the water bottle
after he got off the bike. Probably one of the many photographers got
too close. I wouldn't be surprised if he got smashed in the face or
something with a camera. During the whole event, these riders are
essentially terrorized by crazy fans jumping in front of them, or
running up behind them and laying their hands on them, and screaming in
their faces. It's enough to make anyone angry. And then, after you
have nearly killed yourself on 5 climbs to regain some semblance of
very much winning the tour, as soon as you get off the bike, you're
attacked by photographers and reporters. I think the one thing these
riders want after a hard ride like that is some space to breathe and
cool off for a few minutes. Not only that, but the heat was terrible
this year. Agressiveness is synonymous with being over-heated. It can
put anyone in a nasty mood. He looked pretty pissed off after the
ride, but I understood why because he was literally tackled after the
ride. I don't think I would attribute this as much to high
testosterone as much as irritation by heat exhaustion.

Bill Sornson wrote:
> http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html
>
> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> good-natured way).
>
> This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
> screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
> me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.
>
> Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
> five -- on his skin?)
>
> It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
> three days?)...
>
> Bill S.

Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:49:22
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

ackfugue a �crit :
> I saw what you refer to, here. I saw the throwing of the water bottle
> after he got off the bike. Probably one of the many photographers got
> too close. I wouldn't be surprised if he got smashed in the face or
> something with a camera. During the whole event, these riders are
> essentially terrorized by crazy fans jumping in front of them, or
> running up behind them and laying their hands on them, and screaming in
> their faces. It's enough to make anyone angry. And then, after you
> have nearly killed yourself on 5 climbs to regain some semblance of
> very much winning the tour, as soon as you get off the bike, you're
> attacked by photographers and reporters. I think the one thing these
> riders want after a hard ride like that is some space to breathe and
> cool off for a few minutes. Not only that, but the heat was terrible
> this year. Agressiveness is synonymous with being over-heated. It can
> put anyone in a nasty mood. He looked pretty pissed off after the
> ride, but I understood why because he was literally tackled after the
> ride. I don't think I would attribute this as much to high
> testosterone as much as irritation by heat exhaustion.
>
>
>
Sorry, but it's their job, income, service to sponsors to be available
for the crush that follows. Easy way out - don't win anything. Or,
ride stritcly amateur, and only your girlfriend greets you (and moves
away from the sweating, stinking, unpleasant mess before her eyes).

--

Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Date: 06 Aug 2006 15:05:46
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:49:22 +0200, Sandy <leurre@frreee.fr > wrote:

>ackfugue a �crit :
>> I saw what you refer to, here. I saw the throwing of the water bottle
>> after he got off the bike. Probably one of the many photographers got
>> too close. I wouldn't be surprised if he got smashed in the face or
>> something with a camera. During the whole event, these riders are
>> essentially terrorized by crazy fans jumping in front of them, or
>> running up behind them and laying their hands on them, and screaming in
>> their faces. It's enough to make anyone angry. And then, after you
>> have nearly killed yourself on 5 climbs to regain some semblance of
>> very much winning the tour, as soon as you get off the bike, you're
>> attacked by photographers and reporters. I think the one thing these
>> riders want after a hard ride like that is some space to breathe and
>> cool off for a few minutes. Not only that, but the heat was terrible
>> this year. Agressiveness is synonymous with being over-heated. It can
>> put anyone in a nasty mood. He looked pretty pissed off after the
>> ride, but I understood why because he was literally tackled after the
>> ride. I don't think I would attribute this as much to high
>> testosterone as much as irritation by heat exhaustion.
>>
>>
>>
>Sorry, but it's their job, income, service to sponsors to be available
>for the crush that follows. Easy way out - don't win anything. Or,
>ride stritcly amateur, and only your girlfriend greets you (and moves
>away from the sweating, stinking, unpleasant mess before her eyes).

You've seen me ride!

Ron

Date: 06 Aug 2006 09:38:21
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <40jad2h6g1hv8ja5ieniqs3je31nd2vj3q@4ax.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net writes:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:20:15 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
>>In article <A-F01811.18535605082006@news-west.usenet.com>,
>> "M. Bakunin" <A@A.com> writes:
>>> In article <1154821403.425456.308560@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
>>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
>>>> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
>>>> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
>>>> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
>>>> corticosteroids."
>>>
>>> Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...
>>
>>I wonder if this stuff was available in Ty Cobb's day.
>>
>>
>>cheers,
>> Tom
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> The cocaine that Pantani used was available in Ty Cobb's day.

It certainly was available in Dennis "Oil Can" Boyd's day.

> The corticosteroids were discovered and used in 1949:
> http://www.pressrepublican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060725/SPECIAL/60725003/-1/SPECIAL04
>
> Cobb retired in 1928 with baseball's highest career batting average,
> .366. No current player has any hopes of matching that.
>
> Cobb's stolen base and total hit records have been exceeded, but like
> Ruth, he stands above the crowd because he set so many different
> records.
>
> The players who stole more bases than Cobb couldn't hit anywhere near
> as well as Cobb, while the player who has more total hits than Cobb
> stole only 20% as many bases and hit a career .303 (impressive, but
> not even in the top 100 batters).

AIUI Cobb's stolen base record is largely the result of brandishing
well-aimed spikes while sliding in, and other means of physically
intimidating those who might deign to tag him.

As you know, The Georgia Peach's meanness is legendary, and stories
abound about it, probably inflated & exaggerated over the years, right
down to the one about how in his latter years he curmudgeonly sat in
his wheelchair at the Old Folks Home with his blanket over his lap,
his money in a paper bag in one hand, and an old single action revolver
in the other.

As far as I know, Cobb wasn't a Mennonite. He /did/ have a strong
business sense, much to the chagrine of those who'd take him for a
mere country bumpkin, and he negotiated some pretty good contracts
for himself.

Stan "The Man" Musial was also an impressively good all-arounder, and
he was Mr. Nice Guy. I don't think Musial was on steroids; I think he
was pretty much a straight arrow, and quite possibly the most honourable
of American professional sportsmen. Too bad they don't make 'em like
that any more.

> "Cobb is a prick. But he sure can hit. God Almighty, that man can
> hit."
> --Babe Ruth, tied at .3421 for the 9th highest career batting average
>
> Ruth also set left-handed pitching records and hit a few home runs.
>
> Todd Helton's .3366 is the current highest active career average.
>
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/BA_career.shtml

Thanks for the link. It takes me back to when baseball was Baseball.

Now, if we could just vindicate Bill Buckner ...

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 06 Aug 2006 13:33:53
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 09:38:21 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>AIUI Cobb's stolen base record is largely the result of brandishing
>well-aimed spikes while sliding in, and other means of physically
>intimidating those who might deign to tag him.
>
>As you know, The Georgia Peach's meanness is legendary, and stories
>abound about it, probably inflated & exaggerated over the years, right
>down to the one about how in his latter years he curmudgeonly sat in
>his wheelchair at the Old Folks Home with his blanket over his lap,
>his money in a paper bag in one hand, and an old single action revolver
>in the other.

[snip]

Dear Tom,

Yes, Cobb played in a much rougher era:

"That god damned Dutchman (Honus Wagner) is the only man in the game I
can't scare."

"The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the
right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp
spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to
be and got hurt, that was his fault."

(And lots more juicy Cobb quotes, most made for publicity purposes.)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quocobb.shtml

But Cobb stole bases just as he hit pitches--by relentless practice
and taking advantage of every weakness that he could spot.

"The Babe was a great ballplayer, sure, but Cobb was even greater.
Babe could knock your brains out but Cobb would drive you crazy."
--Tris Speaker
http://www.answers.com/topic/ty-cobb

Even just a quick look at Wiki shows Cobb's skill:

"When he retired in 1928, he was the holder of ninety major league
records and he received the most votes of the first five players
elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, in 1936. . . ."

"In one regular season game Cobb reached first, stole second, third
and home. He would do it again three more times in his career to set
the record. . . ."

"In a 1909 game, Cobb spiked Frank "Home Run" Baker. After the
incident, Connie Mack called Cobb "the dirtiest player around." Ban
Johnson, AL President, initially condemned him for his slide, but
later said that Cobb was merely playing hard within the rules. A photo
of the incident also supported Cobb, as it was clear that Cobb was
sliding to the inside of the base and Baker was reaching across the
base to try to tag him. There was no obvious malevolent intent. Cobb's
unyielding style of play extended to himself; writer Grantland Rice
once recalled "when Cobb played a series with each leg a mass of raw
flesh. He had a temperature of 103 and the doctors ordered him to bed
for several days, but he got three hits, stole three bases, and won
the game. Afterward he collapsed at the bench." Cobb would practice
sliding until his legs were raw. During winter, he hunted through
daylight hours in weighted boots, so that his legs would be stronger
for the upcoming campaign. . . ."

"A personal achievement came in February, 1936, when the first Hall of
Fame election results were announced. Cobb had been named on 222 of
226 ballots, outdistancing Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson
and Walter Johnson, the only others to earn the necessary 75% of votes
to be elected in that first year. His 98.2 percentage stood as the
record until Tom Seaver received 98.8% of the vote in 1992 (Nolan Ryan
also surpassed Cobb, being named on 98.79% of the ballots in 1999).
Those incredible results show that although many people disliked him
personally, they respected the way he played and what he
accomplished."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb

As for sliding, here's Conlon's famous picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Cobbstealing3rd.jpg

Despite all the claims, Cobb couldn't have been further away from the
infielder and still touched the bag. Cobb wanted the base, not the
fielder, and stole

While it's not generally appreciated, sliding into the bag is an art
that can be elevated to the level of boxing. Just as an amateur is
practically helpless to hit a professional boxer in the face, even
with the pro's hands behind his back, so would an amateur have been
unable to tag Cobb sliding into a base, even with the ball already in
the amateur's glove. Cobb could come in under a tag from either side
and reach the bag with either hand or foot at nearly full stretch,
leaving the fielder leaning the wrong way, just like Baker.

As a trivia question, try to find anyone claiming that Clyde Milan
stole his bases by intimidation.

Don't know who Clyde Milan was? A quick read explains why anyone
arguing about Cobb's base stealing should know Clyde Milan:
http://www.answers.com/topic/clyde-milan

In any case, no one ever claims that Cobb's career .366 batting
average was achieved by intimidation instead of skill. Mud doesn't
stick as easily to a bat.

I note with satisfaction that the Yankees are a game ahead of Boston.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Aug 2006 02:00:40
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

"Bill Sornson" <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com > wrote in message
news:Wr3Bg.9260$Vq1.6447@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html
>
> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> good-natured way).
>
> This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
> screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange
> to me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the
> moment.
>
> Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch --
> or five -- on his skin?)
>
> It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
> three days?)...
>
It was a terrific story, but now it's just depressing.

Theories abound. It's possible he was doping all along, maybe taking
Epitestosterone to mask the Testosterone. But, in his depression after
stage 16 (and while he had too much to drink) he neglected something. Maybe
he kept the patch on too long, maybe he didn't take the epi -- who can tell.

Remember there was the T-Mobile rider on his wheel up until partway through
the last climb. That rider was just drafting, not working. If he had been
able to hang on to the end, it would have been very natural for the T-Mobile
rider to come around at the end and win the stage. If he does, Landis would
likely not be tested (they test the yellow jersey, the stage winner, and two
other cyclists -- I don't know whether they are truly chosen randomly, or
whether the officials can use their own "randomness").

Since you pass the test if your ratio is less than 4 to 1 (which means they
don't check for synthetics), I'm guessing a lot of the top guys are closer
to 3.9 to 1 than they are to the 1:1 population average. None of the other
riders seem to be "shocked". Oscar P's been particularly quiet and
supportive. Probably just friendship.

Date: 06 Aug 2006 02:50:12
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Mike Kruger wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote in message
> news:Wr3Bg.9260$Vq1.6447@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>> http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html
>>
>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As
>> people crowded around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he
>> seemed /really/ angry and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle
>> at someone (not at all in a good-natured way).
>>
>> This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side
>> of screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little
>> strange to me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or
>> celebrate the moment.
>>
>> Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a
>> patch -- or five -- on his skin?)
>>
>> It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of,
>> what, three days?)...
>>
> It was a terrific story, but now it's just depressing.
>
> Theories abound. It's possible he was doping all along, maybe taking
> Epitestosterone to mask the Testosterone. But, in his depression
> after stage 16 (and while he had too much to drink) he neglected
> something. Maybe he kept the patch on too long, maybe he didn't take
> the epi -- who can tell.
> Remember there was the T-Mobile rider on his wheel up until partway
> through the last climb. That rider was just drafting, not working. If
> he had been able to hang on to the end, it would have been very
> natural for the T-Mobile rider to come around at the end and win the
> stage. If he does, Landis would likely not be tested (they test the
> yellow jersey, the stage winner, and two other cyclists -- I don't
> know whether they are truly chosen randomly, or whether the officials
> can use their own "randomness").
> Since you pass the test if your ratio is less than 4 to 1 (which
> means they don't check for synthetics), I'm guessing a lot of the top
> guys are closer to 3.9 to 1 than they are to the 1:1 population
> average. None of the other riders seem to be "shocked". Oscar P's
> been particularly quiet and supportive. Probably just friendship.

One last note: whoever wrote Floyd's "denial statement" used some very
unusual phraseologies. Things like "I'm not in any doping regimen" and
"natural for my organism" {both paraphrased} are just plain strange ways to
put things.

I'm afraid something's rotten in...well, Temecula :(

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:57:02
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <LfbBg.9329$Vq1.4728@tornado.socal.rr.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com > writes:

>> The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.
>>
>> It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
>> quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
>> kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
>> and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
>> the 'puter for a while.
>>
>> If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.
>
> Well, Tom, he wrote "Hindsight is 20/20". I took that to mean it's easy to
> say I noticed Landis' strange behavior now, after the fact. So I replied
> that I in fact mentioned noticing the behavior at the time (told my friend
> Miles, among others). Seems pretty straightforward, yet he feigned (I
> assume) STILL not understanding. (There's a little history here, you see.)

I see. I'm not comin' down on ya. I just thought maybe
you were a little unhappy or pissed-off, and just wanted
to inject some cheer.

Anyways, in hindsight, I guess Floyd's miraculous come-back
was "strange behaviour" too. I didn't suspect anything at
the time, but in retrospect ...

> The weather here is lovely, thanks. Hot spell seems to be over; nice cool
> evening breeze after moderate daytime temps.
>
> Movie on tap; otherwise your suggestion sounds inviting.

I love the heat, and thrive on it. But after a while it does get
old, and I start missing that good ol' Pacific Northwest liquid
sunshine. What really bugs me is when the weather locks into /any/
state -- rain or shine, and goes on and on and on that way, for weeks
on end. Thats when a lot of tempers (including my own) get rankled.
I daresay, we could use a little rain, just to break the monotony.

Incidentally, I understand high (natural) levels of testosterone
causes male pattern baldness. I note Floyd is pretty foliculary
replete, for a blondie.

Discussions of hormones always remind me of the All in the Family
episode where Archie downright ordered Edith to hurry up and get
her menopause over with. Heh ... "hermones" ... "groinicologist" ...

Enjoy yer flick.

cheers,
Tom

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Date: 06 Aug 2006 02:43:31
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Tom Keats wrote:

> Anyways, in hindsight, I guess Floyd's miraculous come-back
> was "strange behaviour" too. I didn't suspect anything at
> the time, but in retrospect ...

Just to be clear, it was his /post-finish/ demeanor that struck me as odd.
Most riders (including the very aggressive one-testicled Texan) seem pretty
shot (happy and/or relieved) after crossing the line first; Floyd just acted
weirdly (angry and hostile), I thought. Doping didn't occur to me at the
time, however; just thought it was adrenaline after the previous day's
debacle or perhaps something had happened to tick him off.

All I said earlier in the thread was just that: I'd noticed he acted a tad
peculiarly at the end of that stage win. (No "20/20 hindsight" involved, at
least until the test results became known.)

Popcorn time!

Date: 06 Aug 2006 14:35:30
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Bill Sornson wrote:
:: Tom Keats wrote:
::
::: Anyways, in hindsight, I guess Floyd's miraculous come-back
::: was "strange behaviour" too. I didn't suspect anything at
::: the time, but in retrospect ...
::
:: Just to be clear, it was his /post-finish/ demeanor that struck me
:: as odd. Most riders (including the very aggressive one-testicled
:: Texan) seem pretty shot (happy and/or relieved) after crossing the
:: line first; Floyd just acted weirdly (angry and hostile), I thought.
:: Doping didn't occur to me at the time, however; just thought it was
:: adrenaline after the previous day's debacle or perhaps something had
:: happened to tick him off.
::
:: All I said earlier in the thread was just that: I'd noticed he
:: acted a tad peculiarly at the end of that stage win. (No "20/20
:: hindsight" involved, at least until the test results became known.)

I understand what you're saying, Bill. However, until it is known without
doubt that Flandis doped, it's not 20/20 hindsight. The only way it could
be were if he admitted to doping.

BTW, I noted the same thing as you while watching that stage. Flandis was
PO'd. One other time too.

::
:: Popcorn time!

Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:07:01
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom Keats wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyways, in hindsight, I guess Floyd's miraculous come-back
>>>> was "strange behaviour" too. I didn't suspect anything at
>>>> the time, but in retrospect ...
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, it was his /post-finish/ demeanor that struck me
>>> as odd. Most riders (including the very aggressive one-testicled
>>> Texan) seem pretty shot (happy and/or relieved) after crossing the
>>> line first; Floyd just acted weirdly (angry and hostile), I thought.
>>> Doping didn't occur to me at the time, however; just thought it was
>>> adrenaline after the previous day's debacle or perhaps something had
>>> happened to tick him off.
>>>
>>> All I said earlier in the thread was just that: I'd noticed he
>>> acted a tad peculiarly at the end of that stage win. (No "20/20
>>> hindsight" involved, at least until the test results became known.)

> I understand what you're saying, Bill. However, until it is known
> without doubt that Flandis doped, it's not 20/20 hindsight. The only
> way it could be were if he admitted to doping.

Roger, I mentioned "20/20 hindsight" because that's what JFT said I was
using in mentioning FL's angry demeanor. In fact, I commented on it at the
time. (This is totally independent of whether any chemical reason was in
play.)

> BTW, I noted the same thing as you while watching that stage. Flandis was
> PO'd. One other time too.

Interesting. Let's hope it was /au natural/...but ain't lookin' good :(

Date: 05 Aug 2006 17:55:18
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <%HaBg.16314$%a1.10671@tornado.socal.rr.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com > writes:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>>>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>>>>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.
>>>
>>>> Hindsight is 20/20.
>>>
>>> I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
>>> (meaningless) point?
>>
>> No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?
>
> God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an annoying
> act.)
>
> Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.

It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
the 'puter for a while.

If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.

cheers,
Tom

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Above address is just a spam midden.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 01:05:47
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <%HaBg.16314$%a1.10671@tornado.socal.rr.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> writes:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>>>>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win
>>>>>> there was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

{Note description was snipped}

>>>>> Hindsight is 20/20.

>>>> I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
>>>> (meaningless) point?

>>> No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

>> God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an
>> annoying act.)
>>
>> Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

> The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.
>
> It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
> quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
> kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
> and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
> the 'puter for a while.
>
> If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.

Well, Tom, he wrote "Hindsight is 20/20". I took that to mean it's easy to
say I noticed Landis' strange behavior now, after the fact. So I replied
that I in fact mentioned noticing the behavior at the time (told my friend
Miles, among others). Seems pretty straightforward, yet he feigned (I
assume) STILL not understanding. (There's a little history here, you see.)

The weather here is lovely, thanks. Hot spell seems to be over; nice cool
evening breeze after moderate daytime temps.

Movie on tap; otherwise your suggestion sounds inviting.

Bill

Date: 05 Aug 2006 17:20:15
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <A-F01811.18535605082006@news-west.usenet.com >,
"M. Bakunin" <A@A.com > writes:
> In article <1154821403.425456.308560@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
>> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
>> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
>> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
>> corticosteroids."
>
> Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...

I wonder if this stuff was available in Ty Cobb's day.

cheers,
Tom

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Date: 05 Aug 2006 20:19:21
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:20:15 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <A-F01811.18535605082006@news-west.usenet.com>,
> "M. Bakunin" <A@A.com> writes:
>> In article <1154821403.425456.308560@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
>>> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
>>> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
>>> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
>>> corticosteroids."
>>
>> Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...
>
>I wonder if this stuff was available in Ty Cobb's day.
>
>
>cheers,
> Tom

Dear Tom,

The cocaine that Pantani used was available in Ty Cobb's day.

The corticosteroids were discovered and used in 1949:
http://www.pressrepublican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060725/SPECIAL/60725003/-1/SPECIAL04

Cobb retired in 1928 with baseball's highest career batting average,
.366. No current player has any hopes of matching that.

Cobb's stolen base and total hit records have been exceeded, but like
Ruth, he stands above the crowd because he set so many different
records.

The players who stole more bases than Cobb couldn't hit anywhere near
as well as Cobb, while the player who has more total hits than Cobb
stole only 20% as many bases and hit a career .303 (impressive, but
not even in the top 100 batters).

"Cobb is a prick. But he sure can hit. God Almighty, that man can
hit."
--Babe Ruth, tied at .3421 for the 9th highest career batting average

Ruth also set left-handed pitching records and hit a few home runs.

Todd Helton's .3366 is the current highest active career average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/BA_career.shtml

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 05 Aug 2006 16:43:23
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Paul Cassel wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> > http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html
> >
> > I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> > incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> > around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> > and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> > good-natured way).
> >
> I also lift and once lifted seriously. The stories of 'roid rage' are
> greatly exaggerated. I'll add that I too have been somewhat irritated
> when tired if annoyed when I cease the endurance event. I don't think
> that particular incident (which I noted too) is any real evidence.
> However, that article stated that the test was definitely external. I'm
> guessing there are such method to eval that, but I don't know them.
>
> Personally, I think his helmet was on too tight. That'll put anybody
> into a rage <g>
>
> -paul

Dear Paul,

Dunno about testosterone, but prednisone still comes with the same
cheerful FDA warnings that I read over 30 years ago:

"Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
corticosteroids."

Google for the phrase "frank psychotic manifestations" to see more. I
saw all that I wanted to when a friend needed prednisone for lupus
treatment.

(Pregnant women naturally produce impressive amounts of extra
cortico-steroids. Unusual behavior episodes are common, or so I hear
from men brave enough to stay near them for months at a time.)

Anabolic steroids have about the same effect. Not everyone develops the
problem, and even those who do develop it won't show it all the time,
but it's awfully impressive when something minor touches off a massive
outburst.

Talk to some doctors whose patients found out the hard way about the
psychological effects of steroids.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Aug 2006 09:59:22
From: Paul Cassel
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Dunno about testosterone, but prednisone still comes with the same
> cheerful FDA warnings that I read over 30 years ago:
>
> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
> corticosteroids."
>
> Google for the phrase "frank psychotic manifestations" to see more. I
> saw all that I wanted to when a friend needed prednisone for lupus
> treatment.
>
> (Pregnant women naturally produce impressive amounts of extra
> cortico-steroids. Unusual behavior episodes are common, or so I hear
> from men brave enough to stay near them for months at a time.)
>
> Anabolic steroids have about the same effect. Not everyone develops the
> problem, and even those who do develop it won't show it all the time,
> but it's awfully impressive when something minor touches off a massive
> outburst.
>
> Talk to some doctors whose patients found out the hard way about the
> psychological effects of steroids.
>
I'm not saying that there are no psych components to steroid use, but
that the BB's I've known who juice do so w/o such rages. For that
matter, I had a client who self medicated prednisone up to 120 mg / day.
She ended up with delusions and other psychic manifestations as well
as that classic moon face. However, there was no raging involved.

It's also a matter of duration. Due to a certain problem I have, I
sometimes take as much as 100 mg prednisone / day for up to 4 days, then
drop down to 60, then 40 etc. This use is quite safe. All psychic sort
of problems stem from long term use.

If Floyd strapped some patches on for that one day, I doubt the result
would be a rage.

That said, I've never known anybody who dosed with a high shot of test
so maybe my info is all wrong and the OP is right about the rage that
Floyd showed during the Tour.

-paul

Date: 06 Aug 2006 13:28:30
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <A92dnTNQtckjjEvZnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@comcast.com >,
Paul Cassel <pcasselremove2@comremovecast.net > wrote:

>
> I'm not saying that there are no psych components to steroid use, but
> that the BB's I've known who juice do so w/o such rages. For that
> matter, I had a client who self medicated prednisone up to 120 mg /
> day. She ended up with delusions and other psychic manifestations as
> well as that classic moon face. However, there was no raging
> involved.

It varies much from person to person. I have seen patients (I am a
psychologist, not a doctor) who have developed psychotic symptoms on 20
mg of Prednisone a day. I've seen people tolerate 60 mg a day for years
with no cognitive or emotional adverse events.

> It's also a matter of duration. Due to a certain problem I have, I
> sometimes take as much as 100 mg prednisone / day for up to 4 days,
> then drop down to 60, then 40 etc. This use is quite safe. All
> psychic sort of problems stem from long term use.

I've seen problems develop with the very first dose.

> If Floyd strapped some patches on for that one day, I doubt the
> result would be a rage.

The behavioral effects of testosterone are different than Prednisone.
Rage is possible even with one dose. But there could be other
explanations for his rage, including anger at his failure to ride well
the day before and losing the Tour.

> That said, I've never known anybody who dosed with a high shot of
> test so maybe my info is all wrong and the OP is right about the rage
> that Floyd showed during the Tour.

Unless really really stupid, Floyd wouldn't have had the patches on
during the stage. What would likely have happened is that he would have
put the patches on in the evening after Stage 16, under the supervision
of the team doctor who would have tried to calculate the clearance rate
so that his urine would have been normal by the end of the stage.
Testosterone has a short half-life and is cleared quickly. He was also
kept ultra-hydrated during the stage with 70 water bottles (that's 10 an
hour, folks) to prevent his urine from concentrating. But the doc
fucked up his calculations, as happens sometimes.

BTW, do I have any doubt the team doc was involved in Floyd doping?
None whatsoever. That's why teams hire docs. And Phonak has something
of a history with doping, eh?

Date: 06 Aug 2006 02:16:14
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1154821403.425456.308560@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dunno about testosterone, but prednisone still comes with the same
> cheerful FDA warnings that I read over 30 years ago:
>
> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
> corticosteroids."
>
I was on prednisone for some time when I had sarcoidosis. I didn't notice
any psychotic tendencies, but I did have a short fuse on my temper. A very
short fuse. I was happy to be able to taper off of it -- so were my family
and co-workers.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:53:56
From: M. Bakunin
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <1154821403.425456.308560@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

> "Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
> from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
> depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
> instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
> corticosteroids."

Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...

Date: 05 Aug 2006 16:11:13
From: Blair P. Houghton
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Paul Cassel wrote:
> I also lift and once lifted seriously. The stories of 'roid rage' are
> greatly exaggerated.

s/greatly/slightly

For a bit, I had the theory that stockpiling testosterone
helped with lifting. So I would only have sex once a week.

I can attest from personal experience that by the end of
each week I was a hell of a lot more angry and aggressive
than at the beginning of the week.

And the differences it made in training efficiency were not
noticeable at all.

I never tried it to increase competitive aggression, though.

> Personally, I think his helmet was on too tight. That'll put anybody
> into a rage <g>

Unfortunately, it seems his head wasn't screwed on tight enough.
Until he admits it we'll never know the real truth.

--Blair

Date: 06 Aug 2006 09:54:28
From: Paul Cassel
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

>
> For a bit, I had the theory that stockpiling testosterone
> helped with lifting. So I would only have sex once a week.
>
> I can attest from personal experience that by the end of
> each week I was a hell of a lot more angry and aggressive
> than at the beginning of the week.
>
> And the differences it made in training efficiency were not
> noticeable at all.
>
> I never tried it to increase competitive aggression, though.

I know many who juice and who don't get all in a rage. The rages I've
seen stem from the diet 2 weeks prior to a BB competition more than the
drugs beforehand. That's my observation. I've never juiced, but my g.f.
it out of town so I have some of what you experienced.
>

>
> Unfortunately, it seems his head wasn't screwed on tight enough.
> Until he admits it we'll never know the real truth.
>
What if the truth is that he didn't juice? Why should he admit it? Here
I know little about how these guys are tested and if it's legit that
he's now a DQ. He may be innocent. I lack the tech to know if the
testing is fair or if there are alternate explanations.

-paul

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:29:06
From: M. Bakunin
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

In article <1154819472.952339.153360@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"Blair P. Houghton" <blair.houghton@gmail.com > wrote:

> Unfortunately, it seems his head wasn't screwed on tight enough.
> Until he admits it we'll never know the real truth.

He will probably never admit anything.
In today's pro bicycling world, who Landis would be if stripped of his
Tour de France title ? ( BTW the first time a Tour winner would be
disqualified for doping.) Would be remembered as the guy who cheated,
the former domestique of a famous champion...
So besides his professional future at stake, he would also be loosing
the hefty money prize that comes with the Tour win: 450,000 Euros, which
at today's inter-bank rate means 577,000 US Dollars, and change.
For this kind of money and considering what else is threatened,
admission is probably out of question.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 16:07:36
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

bicycle_disciple wrote:
> If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
> saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
> aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
> folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
> in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
> interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

Oh... I don't know how much experience you have at racing bikes, but
aggressive behavior is common rather than the exception. Besides that
it is often st tactics, if you can intimidate your opponents and
follow it up with your legs. I believe Lance was more aggressive
towards his competitors than Floyd.

Hey, it's a battle you know...

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:06:11
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com > wrote:

>I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
>incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

Hindsight is 20/20.

JT

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Date: 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>
>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

> Hindsight is 20/20.

I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary) (meaningless)
point?

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:13:05
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com > wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.
>
>> Hindsight is 20/20.
>
>I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary) (meaningless)
>point?

No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

JT

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Date: 06 Aug 2006 00:27:39
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>>> <sornonispam@sanon.rspamr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>>>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.
>>
>>> Hindsight is 20/20.
>>
>> I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
>> (meaningless) point?
>
> No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an annoying
act.)

Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

Date: 05 Aug 2006 13:44:36
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> bicycle_disciple wrote:
> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> > > I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> > > incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> > > around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> > > and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> > > good-natured way).
>
> > > This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
> > > screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
> > > me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.
> > >
> > > Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
> > > five -- on his skin?)
> > If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
> > saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
> > aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
> > folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
> > in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
> > interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.
>
> I saw one thrown bottle. Good for Floyd, he defended himself in the
> scrum. If you throw "bottles" (i.e., more than the one I saw), you get
> in trouble with the org.
>
> Same for the yelling; I read of one such incident, not a string of
> them.
>
> Lance used to offend some with his agressiveness. You can't be a teddy
> bear and win the Tour (unless B. Hinault hurts his knee?). --D-y

Yup.

Trash talking aggressiveness is part of most sports, they just try to
sanitize it for TV.

His testosterone level was elevated, but it wan't off the chart, and no
where near the levels of some pro bodybuilders.

I find the jury to still be out, because AFAIK, you can't just rub on
some testosterone cream in the morning and expect an instant boost.
>From what I've heard, it needs to build up in the system. I might be
wrong about that. Why are his other samples on other days fine? It
raises an eyebrow.

It's probably a French conspiracy. Somebody put a testosterone mickey
into his mussette bag that day. :-P

Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:02:09
From: Peter
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

"landotter" <landotter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154810676.662294.12660@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>> bicycle_disciple wrote:
>> > Bill Sornson wrote:
>
> His testosterone level was elevated, but it wan't off the chart, and no
> where near the levels of some pro bodybuilders.
>
well that's ok then...
peter

Date: 05 Aug 2006 13:04:41
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

bicycle_disciple wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> > I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> > incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> > around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> > and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> > good-natured way).

> > This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
> > screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
> > me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.
> >
> > Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
> > five -- on his skin?)
> If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
> saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
> aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
> folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
> in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
> interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

I saw one thrown bottle. Good for Floyd, he defended himself in the
scrum. If you throw "bottles" (i.e., more than the one I saw), you get
in trouble with the org.

Same for the yelling; I read of one such incident, not a string of
them.

Lance used to offend some with his agressiveness. You can't be a teddy
bear and win the Tour (unless B. Hinault hurts his knee?). --D-y

Date: 05 Aug 2006 11:20:00
From:
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

this is normal-helps get air into the lungs

Date: 05 Aug 2006 10:32:52
From: Paul Cassel
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Date: 05 Aug 2006 09:30:33
From: bicycle_disciple
Subject: Re: Floyd's Out...

Bill Sornson wrote:
> http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html
>
> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
> incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
> around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
> and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
> good-natured way).
>
> This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
> screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
> me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.
>
> Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
> five -- on his skin?)
>
> It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
> three days?)...
>
> Bill S.

Bill,

If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

The most unsurprising thing is, after all this doping charge came
against him, his own website went supposedly 'down', relating the cause
on some other basis that can be rationalised in this situation. I
wonder how the folks would react after all this... 'we worked our ass
and made a frickkin website for u and u doped on us??'

Its a sad battle lost. Good bye Floyd.