Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

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Date: 25 Sep 2006 05:00:04
From: Tom B.
Subject: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

I recently set up my commuting bike with a Shimano dynohub, and the
Shimano headlight (mounted about halfway down the head tube). I'm not
planning to retire my high power rechargeable halogen lights (one bar
mount, one helmet mount), but I've found the generator light to be
surprisingly good. If I don't have my battery lights for whatever
reason, this light plus my Cateye LD-1000 rear flasher is adequate for
my commute.

OK, so today was my first test of that setup. I left an unplanned hour
early for work this morning, and my battery lights and chargers are
still in the pile of winter commuting junk.

Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
Each time, they yielded to the main street traffic (me), but I felt
like I was tempting fate.

The problem, I think, is that the generator light's beam is narrow and
focused. In the situation above, the car was maybe 20 to 30 degrees
off my own heading. Their headlights were not illuminating anything
reflective on my person, and my headlight was throwing almost no light
their way. My rear blinkie has side-facing LED's, but they are not
visible from the front (hidden by my legs).

Normally, if I had my battery lights, I would briefly sweep my
helmet-mount light across the driver's face. But in the case where I
am relying on the generator alone, that doesn't work.

So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
situation in general?

Date: 10 Oct 2006 20:16:37
From: Steve Sr.
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

On 25 Sep 2006 05:00:04 -0700, "Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com > wrote:

>So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
>my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
>or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
>Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
>situation in general?

Tom,

Before you go down the LED path please remember that to get their
brightness the LEDs have only a very narrow 5-10 degree viewing angle.
After exceeding this angle brightness drops off very sharply.

Strap an LED blinkie to a fixed object like your mail box post and
then walk away from it and I think you'll see what I mean. This is why
these blinkies are virtually worthless unless hard fastened to your
bike and properly aimed.

To do what you want you would need an arc of LEDs to cover the area in
front of the bike. Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I don't
know of such an arrangement commercially available. The previously
mentioned Cateye does have LEDs off to the side so you get visibility
at 0, 90, and 180 degrees plus or minus the LED viewing angle. Not a
great off axis viewing solution.

My $.02,

Steve

Date: 10 Oct 2006 21:32:20
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator

Steve Sr. wrote:
> On 25 Sep 2006 05:00:04 -0700, "Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
>> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
>> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
>> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
>> situation in general?
>
> Tom,
>
> Before you go down the LED path please remember that to get their
> brightness the LEDs have only a very narrow 5-10 degree viewing angle.
> After exceeding this angle brightness drops off very sharply.
>
> Strap an LED blinkie to a fixed object like your mail box post and
> then walk away from it and I think you'll see what I mean. This is why
> these blinkies are virtually worthless unless hard fastened to your
> bike and properly aimed.
>
> To do what you want you would need an arc of LEDs to cover the area in
> front of the bike.

The Trek Disco Inferno appears to have that arc
("http://leescyclery.com/images/library/large/trek_discoinfernotaillight_m.jpg")

However the more practical solution is two of the clear LED flashers
installed at 45 degree angles.

Even the CatEye with the side LEDs is a good solution. Not perfect, but
good enough. What you want to avoid is the el-cheapo LED blinkers that
don't have side pointing LEDs at all, or use multiple cheap blinkers
pointed at different angles.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 08:13:26
From: Tom B.
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

SMS wrote:
>
> Following up on an earlier post, I did see that CatEye has several LED
> flashers intended for front use (they call them "Safety Lights"). Go to
> "http://www.cateye.com/en/product_listing/57" and you can see the
> choices, TL-LD130-F, TL-LD150-F, and TL-LD170-F. Too bad they haven't
> done a clear version of the TL-LD1000, which would be an ideal "safety
> light" but you can buy two TL-LD170-F lights for not much more than a
> single TL-LD1000.
>
> The Trek Disco Inferno is actually still available, and the guy at the
> local bike shop said that the color of the LEDs is sort of pinkish. It
> wouldn't be hard for someone comfortable with soldering to change the
> LEDs to white LEDs). It costs $30.

Thanks for the info, Steve. This is a real help. They don't have the
F (front) version of the LD170 pictured on that main blinkie page. I
wouldn't have known about it if you hadn't mentioned it.

Price-wise, I think two LD170-F blinkies may actually cost less than
one LD1000. I see them listed for under $9 each on at least one
website. So I think 2 of these (aimed left & right) should work quite
well.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 08:30:18
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator

Tom B. wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>> Following up on an earlier post, I did see that CatEye has several LED
>> flashers intended for front use (they call them "Safety Lights"). Go to
>> "http://www.cateye.com/en/product_listing/57" and you can see the
>> choices, TL-LD130-F, TL-LD150-F, and TL-LD170-F. Too bad they haven't
>> done a clear version of the TL-LD1000, which would be an ideal "safety
>> light" but you can buy two TL-LD170-F lights for not much more than a
>> single TL-LD1000.
>>
>> The Trek Disco Inferno is actually still available, and the guy at the
>> local bike shop said that the color of the LEDs is sort of pinkish. It
>> wouldn't be hard for someone comfortable with soldering to change the
>> LEDs to white LEDs). It costs $30.
>
> Thanks for the info, Steve. This is a real help. They don't have the
> F (front) version of the LD170 pictured on that main blinkie page. I
> wouldn't have known about it if you hadn't mentioned it.
>
> Price-wise, I think two LD170-F blinkies may actually cost less than
> one LD1000. I see them listed for under $9 each on at least one
> website. So I think 2 of these (aimed left & right) should work quite
> well.

I saw them for $6.95 at

"http://www.bike-habit.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=6&"

but they are out of stock.

I actually see these in use quite a bit lately on bikes that have the
integrated hub dynamo (mainly the Breezer bikes which are becoming
popular where I am). It's great to have a dynamo light that's always
ready to go, but they just aren't sufficient on their own due to the
narrow beam.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 00:03:51
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

In article <1159185604.298155.210350@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com > writes:

> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I have a timely anecdote.

I'm using an old-style, bottle generator powered Union U-100
headlight mounted on the front brake bolt, supplemented with
a Planet Bike Beamer 3 mounted on the left fork blade.

Here's the anecdote part:

I had just set out, riding down the back access lane behind
the house. I'm about the egress the lane and cross a residential
street, when a driver on my right on the street I'm coming
out to, hangs a left off that street in her red SUV, to go
up the access lane I'm coming out of.

So, because I'm egressing an access lane and about to cross
a sidewalk where there might be pedestrians, I'm slowed down
to enough of a stop to make my generator light go out, while
I'm looking out for potential hazards. And my Planet Bike
fork-mounted front light is on my far side from the driver's
POV. So as far as she was concerned, I was unlit.

But I had already anticipated the possibility of such an
occurrence, and positioned myself well to the right of
the access lane I was on, while I was making sure it was
safe to cross. She looked a little surprised to see me there
after she made her turn and finally saw my Beamer 3 blinking
away, but she missed me by a wide gin -- I saw to that.

If I had just lackadaisically shot through, relying on
my lights, we'd have probably head-on'd.

The moral of the story is: lights aren't armour.

But heads-upness is. But lights are still good to have.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 26 Sep 2006 19:55:48
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator

Tom B. wrote:

> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

Following up on an earlier post, I did see that CatEye has several LED
flashers intended for front use (they call them "Safety Lights"). Go to
"http://www.cateye.com/en/product_listing/57" and you can see the
choices, TL-LD130-F, TL-LD150-F, and TL-LD170-F. Too bad they haven't
done a clear version of the TL-LD1000, which would be an ideal "safety
light" but you can buy two TL-LD170-F lights for not much more than a
single TL-LD1000.

The Trek Disco Inferno is actually still available, and the guy at the
local bike shop said that the color of the LEDs is sort of pinkish. It
wouldn't be hard for someone comfortable with soldering to change the
LEDs to white LEDs). It costs $30.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 01:00:16
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator

Tom B. wrote:

> Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
> visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
> the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
> street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
> Each time, they yielded to the main street traffic (me), but I felt
> like I was tempting fate.
>
> The problem, I think, is that the generator light's beam is narrow and
> focused. In the situation above, the car was maybe 20 to 30 degrees
> off my own heading. Their headlights were not illuminating anything
> reflective on my person, and my headlight was throwing almost no light
> their way. My rear blinkie has side-facing LED's, but they are not
> visible from the front (hidden by my legs).

That's one of the major issues with generator lights. They are focused
to a narrow beam to make the best of the limited available output, but
at the expense of being less visible to motor vehicles that aren't
coming straight toward you.

> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

Buy two of the Planet Bike Brt 3F amber flashers and point each one at
45 degrees or so.

You could also check out the Princeton Tec "Quad"
("http://rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48017169&parent_category_rn=4500596)
but you're going to have the same problem, you'll need two of them to
get the wide field of view that you're looking for.

The Trek Disco Inferno would have worked if you replaced the red LEDs
with white LEDs (even though the housing is clear, apparently the LEDs
are red)
("http://www.gbcycles.co.uk/eshop.asp?wce=LATRDISCOI01&wci=product") but
apparently it's been discontinued. I read that some people were
replacing red LEDs with white LEDs on another type of front flasher, so
it's not as outrageous as it would seem.

Of course you could always just add another LD-1000, there isn't any
real reason that the front flasher needs to be amber or clear, as long
as you already have the generator headlamp.

Steve
http://bicyclelighting.com

Date: 25 Sep 2006 15:07:20
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

Tom B. <tom.banchy@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I use a Planet Bike five LED headlight as my supplementary light. I use
the Lumotec oval for my main light and set the LED light to flash. It
makes a great see-me light since it scatters light everywhere. I can't
imagine using it as a headlight personally.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
It is against the grain of modern education to teach children to program. What
fun is there in making plans, acquiring discipline in organizing thoughts,
devoting attention to detail, and learning to be self-critical? -- Alan Perlis

Date: 25 Sep 2006 13:11:29
From:
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

Tom B. wrote:
> I recently set up my commuting bike with a Shimano dynohub, and the
> Shimano headlight (mounted about halfway down the head tube). I'm not
> planning to retire my high power rechargeable halogen lights (one bar
> mount, one helmet mount), but I've found the generator light to be
> surprisingly good. If I don't have my battery lights for whatever
> reason, this light plus my Cateye LD-1000 rear flasher is adequate for
> my commute.
> ...
>
> Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
> visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
> the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
> street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
> Each time, they yielded to the main street traffic (me), but I felt
> like I was tempting fate.

I think there's a good chance you're being overly nervous. Have you
tried observing your bike at night, by having a friend ride it while
you drive a car? Try this from all different directions. You'll
probably be pleasantly surprised.

I've done this many times, first with my wife and son evaluating me as
I rode the bike, then in several "Night Riding Workshops" I ran for our
bike club. We found it doesn't take many watts at all to be extremely
visible. Yes, even from an angle. My wife was fairly nervous about my
night riding until she observed me, and even the most "SAFETY!!!!"
oriented member of our bike club said "Oh, I didn't realize I was that
visible!"

> The problem, I think, is that the generator light's beam is narrow and
> focused. In the situation above, the car was maybe 20 to 30 degrees
> off my own heading.

Keep in mind, it's approrpriate to have the generator beam narrow and
focused. The lumens that are "focused" have to stream out of the
headlamp, bounce off the pavement, and come back to your eye. But the
lumens needed to be conspicuous fly directly from your lamp to the
driver's eye. You don't need the same intensity. Again, check it out
for yourself.

>
> Normally, if I had my battery lights, I would briefly sweep my
> helmet-mount light across the driver's face. But in the case where I
> am relying on the generator alone, that doesn't work.

I sometimes give a quick right-left swing of my handlebars (as if
dodging a rock) to flash my headlight at an approaching driver. But I
can honestly say, in decades of nighttime riding, I've never had a
close call with a driver that didn't see me. I have had such close
calls in daytime. I'm convinced I'm more noticeable at night. Thats
with generator headlight and rear blinky, plus reflective tape &
reflectors - nothing outrageous. But see below.

>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

A few years ago, I got a front LED blinkie as a Christmas present. I
use it, and it may help when I'm stopped in the center turn lane of a
5-lane arterial. But frankly, I don't think it's really necessary. My
generator headlamp has a reflector built into the lens which is
probably as good.

The LED blinkies are cheap, and may help a bit, but probably aren't
necessary. But if you check out your bike as I suggested, you can
decide for yourself.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 25 Sep 2006 12:52:59
From: Frank Taco
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

Tom B. wrote:
>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I use a front amber flasher for the exact situation and reasons you
describe. I added it after a near miss with a car turning in front of
me while using my 10W halogen. I use the PlanetBike BRT 3F mentioned
in an earlier post.

FT

Date: 25 Sep 2006 11:35:43
From:
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

Tom B. wrote:
> I recently set up my commuting bike with a Shimano dynohub,
>
> Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
> visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
> the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
> street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I use a tire generator for my morning commute, and supplement it with a
Cateye LED light, one of the ones that takes 4 AA batteries and lasts
for many hours. It has a clear case and scatters quite a bit of light
to the sides. The one I have has a flashing mode option. I use it in
flashing mode for exactly the reason you describe.

Regardless of which bike I'm using, I always prefer to have two lights
of some sort. I've never found bike lighting systems to be that
reliable.

Date: 25 Sep 2006 17:14:36
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

In article <1159185604.298155.210350@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
tom.banchy@gmail.com says...
>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I'm a big fan of the Planet Bike amber blinkies:

<http://www.planetbike.com/frontlights.html > then jump to the bottom of the
page.

I'm not certain of the exact angle they're visible over, but a quick test in
garage indicates it's in the 180-degree range.

I also have a 3-LED CatEye OptiCube that has a wide range of visibility, again
in the 180-degree range. Running that and my amber blinkie simultaneously, I've
never had problems with vehicles turning into my path at night.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)

Date: 25 Sep 2006 09:38:25
From: Tom B.
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

Cathy Kearns wrote:
> "Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
> > visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
> > the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
> > street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
> > Each time, they yielded to the main street traffic (me), but I felt
> > like I was tempting fate.
> >
> > The problem, I think, is that the generator light's beam is narrow and
> > focused. In the situation above, the car was maybe 20 to 30 degrees
> > off my own heading. Their headlights were not illuminating anything
> > reflective on my person, and my headlight was throwing almost no light
> > their way. My rear blinkie has side-facing LED's, but they are not
> > visible from the front (hidden by my legs).
> >
> > Normally, if I had my battery lights, I would briefly sweep my
> > helmet-mount light across the driver's face. But in the case where I
> > am relying on the generator alone, that doesn't work.
> >
> > So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> > my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> > or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> > Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> > situation in general?
>
> I know my Busch & M=FCller front light, run off the Shimano dynohub, has a
> very wide (and really bright) beam. But I second what the other guy said,
> reflective sidewalls really help.

I don't think passive reflectivity works in the scenario I have
described. The car is entering from a side street, maybe 10 feet in
front of me, and 3-4 feet to the right. His headlights will not
illuminate me or my bike. I am familiar with the reflective sidewalls
on Euro ket tires, and while I agree they are a nice idea overall,
they do me no good here.

Also, I'm curious about your statement that a generator light -- even a
good one like a B&M -- can be "very wide" and "really bright" at the
same time (while being driven off the same dynohub I am using). How is
that possible with only 3 watts?

I am new to generator lights, and no doubt the Shimano light isn't
quite up to the standard of the B&M. But when being driven by the same
hub, with a relatively standard halogen lamp, you have the same amount
of light energy available. The beam can be either wide or bright, but
not both at the same time. That is physically impossible.

The Shimano light does an adequate job of illuminating a relatively
narrow strip of the road directly in front of the bike. It is NOT easy
to see the light from outside this "sweet spot", IMHO, especially when
competing with other bright clutter like street lights.

Date: 25 Sep 2006 14:59:52
From: Cathy Kearns
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)

"Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1159185604.298155.210350@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I recently set up my commuting bike with a Shimano dynohub, and the
> Shimano headlight (mounted about halfway down the head tube). I'm not
> planning to retire my high power rechargeable halogen lights (one bar
> mount, one helmet mount), but I've found the generator light to be
> surprisingly good. If I don't have my battery lights for whatever
> reason, this light plus my Cateye LD-1000 rear flasher is adequate for
> my commute.
>
> OK, so today was my first test of that setup. I left an unplanned hour
> early for work this morning, and my battery lights and chargers are
> still in the pile of winter commuting junk.
>
> Here's the one thing I didn't like: I felt like I was not sufficiently
> visible to cars preparing to turn from side streets / driveways onto
> the main road I was riding. Several times, as I approached a side
> street, I saw a car arrive at the intersection a few seconds before me.
> Each time, they yielded to the main street traffic (me), but I felt
> like I was tempting fate.
>
> The problem, I think, is that the generator light's beam is narrow and
> focused. In the situation above, the car was maybe 20 to 30 degrees
> off my own heading. Their headlights were not illuminating anything
> reflective on my person, and my headlight was throwing almost no light
> their way. My rear blinkie has side-facing LED's, but they are not
> visible from the front (hidden by my legs).
>
> Normally, if I had my battery lights, I would briefly sweep my
> helmet-mount light across the driver's face. But in the case where I
> am relying on the generator alone, that doesn't work.
>
> So my thought here is that a yellow/amber LED flasher for the front of
> my bike would have helped, especially if it covered about 120 degrees
> or so. Kind of like the amber lamps on the front corners of cars.
> Does anyone know of anything like this? Has anyone thought about this
> situation in general?

I know my Busch & M�ller front light, run off the Shimano dynohub, has a
very wide (and really bright) beam. But I second what the other guy said,
reflective sidewalls really help.
>

Date: 25 Sep 2006 06:29:52
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Front LED flasher with wide field-of-view? (to supplement generator light)