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Main
Date: 24 Jun 2007 05:46:01
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Grousing about ride leaders
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A few questions about club ride leaders.
It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride is
occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
1. Safety concerns
2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14 mph
pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
(Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:02:32
From: gds
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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On Jun 23, 10:46 pm, "Mike Kruger" <Mik...@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> A few questions about club ride leaders.
>
> It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride is
> occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>
> 1. Safety concerns
> 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14 mph
> pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>
> (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>
> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
In our club the saety issues pretty much take of themselves. We are
club that probably averages an age in the mid 50's and almost all
riders have many years of experience. We have very few examples of
running lights or other obviously dangerous riding.
The social contract, especially as to advertised speed is an issue in
every single club have ever ridden with. When I'm leading a ride I
will always sweep at or near the advertised speed. The exception is
when I know all the riders well and the ride evolves(devolves) into a
competitive ride. Then it is game on.
But like any social contract it is a two way contract. so, most rides
that I lead will go at ~18-20 mph on the flats and will be listed as
such. So, I'm happy to sweep at 17 or 18 mph. But I won't sweep at 14
mph.
Part of the problem (I think) is that most clubs have a listing that
uses an average speed. Well on many rides the average isn't very
usefull. Around here we have lots of climbing. So, when we go up Mt
Lemmon we will be climbing for a couple of hours at 7-9 mph and come
back down at 30 mph. The average will be 14-16 mph and that doesn't
sound very fast unless you understand that it includes 3 to 6000 feet
if climbing depending how far we go. Or we can cruise out and back on
a frontage road that is never more than a 1% grade at 20 mph for a
much easier ride.
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 17:15:31
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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"gds" <gary_jill@msn.com > wrote in message
news:1182974552.332046.236900@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 23, 10:46 pm, "Mike Kruger" <Mik...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> A few questions about club ride leaders.
>>
>> It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride
>> is
>> occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>>
>> 1. Safety concerns
>> 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14
>> mph
>> pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>>
>> (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>>
>> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
>> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
>> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
>
> In our club the saety issues pretty much take of themselves. We are
> club that probably averages an age in the mid 50's and almost all
> riders have many years of experience. We have very few examples of
> running lights or other obviously dangerous riding.
> The social contract, especially as to advertised speed is an issue in
> every single club have ever ridden with. When I'm leading a ride I
> will always sweep at or near the advertised speed. The exception is
> when I know all the riders well and the ride evolves(devolves) into a
> competitive ride. Then it is game on.
> But like any social contract it is a two way contract. so, most rides
> that I lead will go at ~18-20 mph on the flats and will be listed as
> such. So, I'm happy to sweep at 17 or 18 mph. But I won't sweep at 14
> mph.
>
> Part of the problem (I think) is that most clubs have a listing that
> uses an average speed. Well on many rides the average isn't very
> usefull. Around here we have lots of climbing. So, when we go up Mt
> Lemmon we will be climbing for a couple of hours at 7-9 mph and come
> back down at 30 mph. The average will be 14-16 mph and that doesn't
> sound very fast unless you understand that it includes 3 to 6000 feet
> if climbing depending how far we go. Or we can cruise out and back on
> a frontage road that is never more than a 1% grade at 20 mph for a
> much easier ride.
Anyone who wants to climb a mountain on a bike ride is too stupid for me to
ever associate with. Take your freaking club rides and stuff them you know
where.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 20:41:40
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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On Jun 25, 10:56 am, Mr. Ed Dolan wrote:
> Professor David L. Johnson wrote:
>
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> >> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to
> >> listen to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to
> >> correct the problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
>
> > I disagree. For one thing, ride participants are not customers. A ride
> > is a cooperative venture. If the complaint is that the ride leader is not
> > following the rules he/she set out at the beginning, or the
> > generally-accepted rules of the club, that is one thing. But if a rider
> > shows up expecting to be accomodated by changing the ride to his/her
> > taste, despite how the ride was announced, that is the rider's problem.
>
> David L. Johnson is obviously the kind of blue collar types I am talking
> about. Rider participants are customers from the point of view of the ride
> organizers. It is only elementary courtesy to accommodate whatever
> complaints the rider participants may have. But it takes a white collar type
> to know this. Blue collar types like David L. Johnson will never have a clue
> about these things because they lack social skills. Such types should not be
> running anything except their own assholes.
Mr. Ed reveals his ignorance and laziness yet again! Does this look
like the curriculum vita of a blue collar type: <http://www.lehigh.edu/
dlj0/public/www-data/vita.html >?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:38:58
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1182829300.683123.106840@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 25, 10:56 am, Mr. Ed Dolan wrote:
>> Professor David L. Johnson wrote:
>>
>> > Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>> >> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to
>> >> listen to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can
>> >> to
>> >> correct the problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
>>
>> > I disagree. For one thing, ride participants are not customers. A
>> > ride
>> > is a cooperative venture. If the complaint is that the ride leader is
>> > not
>> > following the rules he/she set out at the beginning, or the
>> > generally-accepted rules of the club, that is one thing. But if a
>> > rider
>> > shows up expecting to be accomodated by changing the ride to his/her
>> > taste, despite how the ride was announced, that is the rider's problem.
>>
>> David L. Johnson is obviously the kind of blue collar type I am talking
>> about. Rider participants are customers from the point of view of the
>> ride
>> organizers. It is only elementary courtesy to accommodate whatever
>> complaints the rider participants may have. But it takes a white collar
>> type
>> to know this. Blue collar types like David L. Johnson will never have a
>> clue
>> about these things because they lack social skills. Such types should not
>> be
>> running anything except their own assholes.
>
> Mr. Ed reveals his ignorance and laziness yet again! Does this look
> like the curriculum vita of a blue collar type: <http://www.lehigh.edu/
> dlj0/public/www-data/vita.html>?
The Great Ed Dolan does not ever look up anything in connection with Usenet.
Why should he since all who post here are morons, idiots and imbeciles.
All messages to Usenet should be read and responded to strictly on the basis
of what is said, not on who or what anyone might be. Thus spake Zarathustra.
All professors that I have ever known have been liberal cowards who cave to
their radical students. A pox on them all! However, it is understandable how
someone like Mr. Tom Sherman would think otherwise of them. Birds of a
feather flock together.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 06:51:14
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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In article <tynfi.26819$YL5.15210@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> A few questions about club ride leaders.
>
> It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride is
> occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>
> 1. Safety concerns
> 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14 mph
> pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>
> (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>
> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
There's rides and then there's rides. The ones you seem to be discussing
(15 mph, 30 mi) are pretty casual by boy-racer or
audax/rando/Seattle-to-Portland standards. Which is fine, but the issues
will be different.
I assume that on these pie rides, the leader's safety responsibility
generally amounts to ensuring the ride moves through intersections
safely, keeping an eye out for dangerous riding in the pack, and
hopefully picking out a route without any egregious hazards or outright
errors.
Social contract is clearly a concern: if the ride isn't as advertised,
and it's a problem for some of the participants, the ride should be
returned to the advertised form, or the ad should be changed.
Our regular boy-racer club ride (2-3+ hours at 30 km/h, depending on how
you finish it off; the first 2 hours is pretty much all together, and
it's a no-drop ride with a designated sprint in the 3rd hour) has no
designated leaders.
There are, however, several riders who are more senior, or more
experienced, in the club. They generally make sure that the ride doesn't
drop people, that arrangements are made when someone has to stop for a
flat or mechanical, and that the ride isn't going wildly over the speed
parameters.
Of course, this is a ride that has gone at 9 am every Saturday of the
year for years and years. At least five, maybe even a decade. It's a
well-established ride. All the regulars know the route off by heart,
including the standard decision point on whether the ride will be done
counterclockwise or clockwise (to fit best with the prevailing wind).
If I was ever on a ride where I thought the safety issues were
untenable, I'd either talk to the leader (if I felt it would help, and
probably only if I knew them or the safety issue was outrageous and
maybe endangering riders too inexperienced to understand the risk), or
just drop off the ride. Life's too short to die on a bike. At least not
for a few decades.
I'm not really in the business of telling people how to run rides unless
I've paid for the privilege.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 16:49:07
From: Lynne Fitz
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
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As a ride leader, I've been putting MY expectations out front...
1) I stop at stop signs. There will never be any uncertainty about
what I will do at a stop sign.
2) The ride pace is <x >. If you want to go faster, hope you've got a
map.
3) Don't come up or pass on anyone's right, unless you've been riding
with them for years and they expect that sort of behavior from you. I
don't know any of you that well.
4) The maps are not classified documents. Go get one. If not, I
guess you will be riding at the specified pace :-)
5) We will regroup at these locations (depends on length of the ride)
6) and I make everyone introduce themselves.
I'll ask riders how the pace is for them during the ride, if I know
they've been working pretty hard. I usually know which ones are
working.
I don't get complaints...
On Jun 23, 10:46 pm, "Mike Kruger" <Mik...@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> A few questions about club ride leaders.
>
> It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride is
> occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>
> 1. Safety concerns
> 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14 mph
> pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>
> (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>
> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 23:25:32
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"Lynne Fitz" <fitzbase@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1182728947.127753.88310@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> As a ride leader, I've been putting MY expectations out front...
>
> 1) I stop at stop signs. There will never be any uncertainty about
> what I will do at a stop sign.
I put this more generally, that we are going to obey the law, which includes
stoping at stop lights and I usually phrase it, making an effort to stop at
stop signs. I also say we are representing our club, and we will ride with
courtesy to other road users.
> 2) The ride pace is <x>. If you want to go faster, hope you've got a map.
Since I tend to lead kids'/family/beginners' rides, I usually have the
opposite problem - people who are really unprepared even for a "leisurely"
(10 - 12 mph) pace. With these rides it's nice to have another ride leader
so someone can ride sweep (or be in the front) so the laggards can be
mother-henned along.
> 5) We will regroup at these locations (depends on length of the ride)
I tend to do stay-together rides, again, because of the type of riders I'm
working with.
> 6) and I make everyone introduce themselves.
Yes.
> I'll ask riders how the pace is for them during the ride, if I know
> they've been working pretty hard. I usually know which ones are
> working.
I also ask people not to leave the ride without telling me - otherwise, we
might wait a long time for people to catch up who decided that they'd had
enough.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 17:09:26
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > wrote in message
news:Mfhgi.1400$zA4.274@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
[...]
> Since I tend to lead kids'/family/beginners' rides, I usually have the
> opposite problem - people who are really unprepared even for a "leisurely"
> (10 - 12 mph) pace. With these rides it's nice to have another ride leader
> so someone can ride sweep (or be in the front) so the laggards can be
> mother-henned along.
All rides should be organized so as to accommodate those who ride at 10 mph.
This is considered the standard ride speed for an organized bike tour, not a
g.d. 20 mph. Either accommodate these riders or get out of the bike touring
business.
[...]
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 00:16:34
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 05:46:01 GMT, Mike Kruger wrote:
> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
If I'm finding a group unsafe, I have a word with the worst offender. If
that doesn't help, I get off. As for speed, the nominal leader usually
isn't in control - it depends who turns up, and how hard they feeling like
pushing. Again, if it's too fast or slow for me, I leave.
--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 04:06:34
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote in message
news:tynfi.26819$YL5.15210@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>A few questions about club ride leaders.
>
> It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a ride
> is occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>
> 1. Safety concerns
> 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14
> mph pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>
> (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>
> But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and mean
> they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to listen
to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to correct the
problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
However, I have seen ride leaders become argumentative. That is because they
are assholes and should not be ride leaders in the first place. Very many
week long bike tours especially are conducted by total assholes who should
not be conducting anything other than their own assholes. It is really quite
incredible how stupid some of them can be.
You need to have white collar types leading and conducting things. Blue
collar types will always fail in the end because they have few if any people
(social) skills.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 19:36:05
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to listen
> to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to correct the
> problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
I disagree. For one thing, ride participants are not customers. A ride
is a cooperative venture. If the complaint is that the ride leader is
not following the rules he/she set out at the beginning, or the
generally-accepted rules of the club, that is one thing. But if a rider
shows up expecting to be accomodated by changing the ride to his/her
taste, despite how the ride was announced, that is the rider's problem.
--
David L. Johnson
Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 10:56:44
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote in message
news:EqydnSXhftBWYuPbnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@ptd.net...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to
>> listen to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to
>> correct the problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
>
> I disagree. For one thing, ride participants are not customers. A ride
> is a cooperative venture. If the complaint is that the ride leader is not
> following the rules he/she set out at the beginning, or the
> generally-accepted rules of the club, that is one thing. But if a rider
> shows up expecting to be accomodated by changing the ride to his/her
> taste, despite how the ride was announced, that is the rider's problem.
David L. Johnson is obviously the kind of blue collar types I am talking
about. Rider participants are customers from the point of view of the ride
organizers. It is only elementary courtesy to accommodate whatever
complaints the rider participants may have. But it takes a white collar type
to know this. Blue collar types like David L. Johnson will never have a clue
about these things because they lack social skills. Such types should not be
running anything except their own assholes.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 09:28:05
From: Daryl Hunt
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:8IadnX8FkJqBqePbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@prairiewave.com...
>
> "Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:tynfi.26819$YL5.15210@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> >A few questions about club ride leaders.
> >
> > It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a
ride
> > is occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
> >
> > 1. Safety concerns
> > 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14
> > mph pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
> >
> > (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
> >
> > But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and
mean
> > they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If you've
> > ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
>
> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to listen
> to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to correct
the
> problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
>
> However, I have seen ride leaders become argumentative. That is because
they
> are assholes and should not be ride leaders in the first place. Very many
> week long bike tours especially are conducted by total assholes who should
> not be conducting anything other than their own assholes. It is really
quite
> incredible how stupid some of them can be.
>
> You need to have white collar types leading and conducting things. Blue
> collar types will always fail in the end because they have few if any
people
> (social) skills.
I happen to be a While Collar type and an asshole to boot. Well, that is,
towards those that play the class game since I come from a very heavily
laden blue collar background.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 10:40:27
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Grousing about ride leaders
|
"Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@celticommnospam.com > wrote in message
news:467e8d9c$1@i70west-jfxpus4....
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:8IadnX8FkJqBqePbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@prairiewave.com...
>>
>> "Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
>> news:tynfi.26819$YL5.15210@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>> >A few questions about club ride leaders.
>> >
>> > It seems to me that complaining publicly to the ride leader during a
> ride
>> > is occasionally appropriate. I can think of two general sets of issues:
>> >
>> > 1. Safety concerns
>> > 2. Social contract concerns: if the ride is advertised to be at a 13-14
>> > mph pace for 30 miles, going 16-18 mph for 40 miles isn't appropriate.
>> >
>> > (Perhaps there are other things that I'm forgetting.)
>> >
>> > But people often do complain -- possibly not realizing how petty and
> mean
>> > they sound -- and not every ride leader has a very thick skin. If
>> > you've
>> > ever seen this problem, how has it been dealt with?
>>
>> There is only one way to deal with a rider complaint and that is to
>> listen
>> to him carefully and advise him that you will do what you can to correct
> the
>> problem. In other words, the customer is always right.
>>
>> However, I have seen ride leaders become argumentative. That is because
> they
>> are assholes and should not be ride leaders in the first place. Very many
>> week long bike tours especially are conducted by total assholes who
>> should
>> not be conducting anything other than their own assholes. It is really
> quite
>> incredible how stupid some of them can be.
>>
>> You need to have white collar types leading and conducting things. Blue
>> collar types will always fail in the end because they have few if any
> people
>> (social) skills.
>
> I happen to be a While Collar type and an asshole to boot. Well, that is,
> towards those that play the class game since I come from a very heavily
> laden blue collar background.
I actually like blue collar types on a limited basis, but they are not up to
the demands of anything complex. I do not want such types ever running
anything, let alone week long bike tours. They simply can't do it. Sorry,
but everyone has got to know their limitations (as Dirty Harry [Clint
Eastwood] the San Francisco police detective would say).
Americans do not think class exists, but it does, just as it does in every
society on earth. Sociology 101.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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