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Date: 09 May 2007 12:27:51
From: Reid Priedhorsky
Subject: Help me commit the mortal sin of using large-large
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Hi folks,
(This was posted over in r.b.tech a few days ago, admittedly with a less
provocative title, and didn't garner many useful responses. My apologies
to those who've seen it already.)
I shift my 3-ring chainwheels with a Tiagra brifter and a Sora derailleur.
This works great, except that it is very difficult (i.e., pretty much
impossible) to adjust the shifting so that I can use both the middle
chainwheel with the smallest cog and the largest chainwheel with the
largest cog (or even the largest two). I have 9 speeds in the back.
For those of you who are already composing an eloquently worded "you are a
lunatic/bozo/turnip twaddler/etc." response, please read this whole post
first. :)
I would like to get a brifter which will let me do both of these
things. I can think of a couple of potential options, but I don't know if
they will work.
1. Non-indexed shifting.
2. Brifters with a greater number of fine-tune clicks (e.g. my Tiagra has
two clicks in the middle chainwheel but only one on the large and small).
3. Upgrade the derailleur.
I like the form factor of the Shimano brifters, so I'm hesitant to switch
to something else.
Now, I'm aware that using the large-large combination is held to the same
level of regard as plumber's crack in public. I do have plenty of
duplication between the middle- and large-chainring ranges. The reason I
like having big-big available is that starting out in that combination
makes it easier to access the smaller cogs which are useful in fast level
cruising. If I don't anticipate using these soon, I do shift down to the
middle ring.
To elaborate, here's my setup. Numbers in the table are gear inches.
52 42 30
---- ---- ----
34 41.3 33.4 23.8
30 46.8 37.8 27.0
27 52.0 42.0 30.0
24 58.5 47.3 33.8
21 66.9 54.0 38.6
19 73.9 59.7 42.6
17 82.6 66.7 47.6
15 93.6 75.6 54.0
14 100.3 81.0 57.9
Now, if I'm going to be moving quickly, I usually end up on the large
chainring in the neighborhood of 19-15 teeth in the back, perhaps 14. The
smallest cog with a duplicate on the middle chainring is (roughly) 17.
Shifting the rear cogs is considerably faster and can be done under much
greater load than shifting the chainrings.
For example, if as I speed up I want to end up in 52x15, I can either
start on the middle chainring (on, say, the 27) and do 7 fast shifts and 1
slow one (to 24, 21, 19, 17, 15, 14, large, 15) -- not to mention that
during my stopping, I would have had to to throw down several rear gears
_and_ shift the front -- or I can start on the large chainring and do 7
fast shifts.
From a usability standpoint, the latter is clearly better.
That's why I want my "deranged" shifting pattern. My ideal (which I don't
do fully because the front derailer grinds on the chain) is to use the
large chainring when I'm in places where I go fast, medium in medium to
slow places, and small in very slow places.
Any suggestions would be most welcome. Please let me know what additional
information I can provide. Thanks!
Reid
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Date: 09 May 2007 20:29:51
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Who's Buying Carbon Fiber bicycles from Costco?
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> How does it normally work if someone brings in a bike for warranty service
> that was purchased at a shop that is a normal retailer for the brand?
> Is it like vehicles, where you can go to any dealer, and the manufacturer
> pays the dealer for the parts and labor? Car dealers love warranty work as
> they are well paid for it.
Warranty reimbursement in the bike biz is a joke, and doesn't come close to
covering the costs. Labor costs are specifically not taken care of by the
manufacturer, but some shops, including ourselves, will cover the labor on
bikes they've sold. You eat it, but it's good customer service, and
hopefully the bike lines you sell are high-enough quality that warranty work
isn't a huge part of your business.
And you are correct; the auto warranty model is vastly different from what
the bike biz has to offer. A whole lot more money in cars...
As warranty expenses are a considerable outlay in terms of the percentage of
total cost of the bike, manufacturers are *very* specific about not covering
warranty issues when not purchased through normal channels.
Cars aren't like bikes. The overall durability and lifespan of a car isn't
going to vary much (if at all) based upon how well the dealer "preps" it
before delivery. A bicycle is *very* dependent upon the quality of the
dealer's initial assembly, as well as the follow-up service at the 30-day
check, for a long & pleasant lifespan. That's not to say there aren't some
customers who can do a great job maintaining, and possibly even assemble a
new bike. But greater than 98%, I would guess, cannot. And thus many of the
major brands go to great lengths to make sure their bikes are sold through
proper channels.
> On occasion I've seen a sign on the door at your Los Altos store that says
> that no service is available for bikes not purchased at your store,
> because the service department is too busy. This is understandable, you
> have to take care of your own customers first, but does this apply to
> warranty work as well?
It totally sucks to be turning away profitable business, or customers in
general, when they need us. Thankfully we have someone to refer them to
(www.BikeDoctor.net, a mobile guy, Erik Fetch, who does great work at
reasonable prices). But once our repair backlog gets past 10 days we aren't
offering the service customers expect when we sell them a new bike, and have
to stop taking "outside" repairs.
For warranty situations, that's a really tough one, since Trek uses us as a
"go-to" shop when somebody runs into a problem elsewhere. We do the best we
can, but have to be careful about "adopting" bikes we haven't sold. You are
bringing up, by far, the most painful part of our business. There's nothing
I lose more sleep over.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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Date: 09 May 2007 15:44:51
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Who's Buying Carbon Fiber bicycles from Costco?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> How does it normally work if someone brings in a bike for warranty service
>> that was purchased at a shop that is a normal retailer for the brand?
>
>> Is it like vehicles, where you can go to any dealer, and the manufacturer
>> pays the dealer for the parts and labor? Car dealers love warranty work as
>> they are well paid for it.
>
> Warranty reimbursement in the bike biz is a joke, and doesn't come close to
> covering the costs. Labor costs are specifically not taken care of by the
> manufacturer, but some shops, including ourselves, will cover the labor on
> bikes they've sold. You eat it, but it's good customer service, and
> hopefully the bike lines you sell are high-enough quality that warranty work
> isn't a huge part of your business.
So they do cover parts? I guess that leads to more replacing of parts
than labor-intensive repairs of things like shifters, dérailleurs, etc.
Do the manufacturer's claim that warranty labor should be covered by the
profit margins on the bikes? Bikes do have much higher margins than
cars, at least percentage-wise.
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Date: 09 May 2007 23:49:10
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Who's Buying Carbon Fiber bicycles from Costco?
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>> Warranty reimbursement in the bike biz is a joke, and doesn't come close
>> to covering the costs. Labor costs are specifically not taken care of by
>> the manufacturer, but some shops, including ourselves, will cover the
>> labor on bikes they've sold. You eat it, but it's good customer service,
>> and hopefully the bike lines you sell are high-enough quality that
>> warranty work isn't a huge part of your business.
>
> So they do cover parts? I guess that leads to more replacing of parts than
> labor-intensive repairs of things like shifters, dérailleurs, etc.
They darned well better cover the cost of defective parts!!! Shops that have
a good relationship with the manufacturer aren't going to be hassled about
something that's truly defective. But the cost of the part is often less
significant than the time spent installing them. When things are busy (that
would be NOW), time spent on warranty work is time not spent on getting
bikes assembled (so they can be sold) or taking care of normal repair work.
> Do the manufacturer's claim that warranty labor should be covered by the
> profit margins on the bikes? Bikes do have much higher margins than cars,
> at least percentage-wise.
Manufacturers of bicycles generally bleed a fair amount of red ink and thus
plead hardship, in addition to pretending that the universe has inifinite
resources and everyone's paid minimum wage. They also ignore missed
opportunity costs as well (things you could have been doing with that same
amount of effort that might bring money into the register).
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46424ee5$0$27196$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> How does it normally work if someone brings in a bike for warranty
>>> service that was purchased at a shop that is a normal retailer for the
>>> brand?
>>
>>> Is it like vehicles, where you can go to any dealer, and the
>>> manufacturer pays the dealer for the parts and labor? Car dealers love
>>> warranty work as they are well paid for it.
>>
>> Warranty reimbursement in the bike biz is a joke, and doesn't come close
>> to covering the costs. Labor costs are specifically not taken care of by
>> the manufacturer, but some shops, including ourselves, will cover the
>> labor on bikes they've sold. You eat it, but it's good customer service,
>> and hopefully the bike lines you sell are high-enough quality that
>> warranty work isn't a huge part of your business.
>
> So they do cover parts? I guess that leads to more replacing of parts than
> labor-intensive repairs of things like shifters, dérailleurs, etc.
>
> Do the manufacturer's claim that warranty labor should be covered by the
> profit margins on the bikes? Bikes do have much higher margins than cars,
> at least percentage-wise.
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Date: 09 May 2007 14:18:43
From: Diablo Scott
Subject: Re: Who's Buying Carbon Fiber bicycles from Costco?
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> It totally sucks to be turning away profitable business, or customers in
> general, when they need us. Thankfully we have someone to refer them to
> (www.BikeDoctor.net, a mobile guy, Erik Fetch, who does great work at
> reasonable prices).
That's either a bad address or his site is down.
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Date: 09 May 2007 21:30:32
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Website address correction
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>> It totally sucks to be turning away profitable business, or customers in
>> general, when they need us. Thankfully we have someone to refer them to
>> (www.BikeDoctor.net, a mobile guy, Erik Fetch, who does great work at
>> reasonable prices).
>
> That's either a bad address or his site is down.
My BAD!!!! Very sorry about that. The correct address is-
www.TheBikeDoctor.net
Sorry 'bout that...
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA.
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Date: 09 May 2007 15:50:21
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Website address correction
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> It totally sucks to be turning away profitable business, or customers in
>>> general, when they need us. Thankfully we have someone to refer them to
>>> (www.BikeDoctor.net, a mobile guy, Erik Fetch, who does great work at
>>> reasonable prices).
>> That's either a bad address or his site is down.
>
> My BAD!!!! Very sorry about that. The correct address is-
>
> www.TheBikeDoctor.net
>
> Sorry 'bout that...
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA.
Geez that's cheap. $55 and includes truing the wheels!
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Date: 09 May 2007 23:42:28
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Website address correction
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>> My BAD!!!! Very sorry about that. The correct address is-
>>
>> www.TheBikeDoctor.net
>>
>> Sorry 'bout that...
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA.
>
> Geez that's cheap. $55 and includes truing the wheels!
Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, but his prices *are* quite
reasonable, and he knows what he's doing. The only thing he's not up to
speed on would be hydraulic disc brakes; he's more of a road-bike kind of
guy.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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