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Main
Date: 11 Aug 2006 07:46:01
From: DC1999
Subject: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
bike trails.
27400. A person operating a motor vehicle or bicycle may not wear a
headset covering, or earplugs in, both ears. This prohibition does
not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person operating authorized emergency vehicles, as defined
in Section 165.
(b) A person engaged in the operation of either special
construction equipment or equipment for use in the maintenance of any
highway.
(c) A person engaged in the operation of refuse collection
equipment who is wearing a safety headset or safety earplugs.
(d) A person wearing personal hearing protectors in the form of
earplugs or molds that are specifically designed to attenuate
injurious noise levels. The plugs or molds shall be designed in a
manner so as to not inhibit the wearer's ability to hear a siren or
horn from an emergency vehicle or a horn from another motor vehicle.
(e) A person using a prosthetic device that aids the hard of
hearing.
(copied from findlaw.com)
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 23:10:40
From: nash
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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>>There have been many, not just a few, times when I've heard something
dangerous approaching from behind. Or, for that matter, heard someone
who
was riding behind me crash or get a flat. In either instance, my
hearing,
and only my hearing, allowed me to react to the situation in a way that
was
better than if I didn't hear whatever it was. <<
Or you could just keep alert to traffic with your mirror like you are
suppose to.
Your downed friend could yell I guess.
I found some great headphones though. Sennheiser MX550, 113 DB,
116 OHMS, $26.
Great sound and the plus plus is for cyclists. You can hear what is
going on around you since the bud is smaller and fits comfortably. I
think the kind with noise reduction of surroundings would be counter
productive for us. Sennheiser is known for having high quality in a
very cheap price.
take back the street
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 22:51:52
From: nash
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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BTW,They are suppose to leave room for cyclists on the right. "share
the road remember."
Something similar happened to me in fact on a treacherous road here
called River Rd.
Had not taken it for many years but did not see a better way on the
map.
When a bus parks for loading and unloading decidedly off the bike path
you would think he is leaving you room to pass. Nope. Someone got on
and after he closed the door I though good I will just continue. When
I got close enough to the rear door it opened and someone was stepping
down infront of me. I jumped Exit stage right. Needless to say the
driver slowed down to yell at me or something but I had better things
to do. I would have phoned transit but I did not get a number for the
bus.
Secondly, you get one metre and a half to go around parked cars on
your right but you would get run over or hassled by drivers if you ever
used what was rightfully your safety gin on your road. Ticking time
bomb No one has enough patience. If you timed it I bet it only takes
5 seconds to get around a cyclist but they forget if I was one person
in a car I would be jamming there line up continually at every light
forever. Bunch a babies.
If they do not let you sue after wearing an iPod which has nothing
to do with the accident I guess they do not like cyclists much there.
Depends who you are too maybe : )
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 13:33:46
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:
> competent
> > cycling technique.
> >
>
> Yes, I was incompetent, but there was no shoulder and a guard rail to
> the righ (which I nicely got squeezed against).
>
> There were some nice city riding videos posted recently, examples of
> "competent" cycling, where they had dozens of chances of being doored
> (and doored on purpose, too).
You got doored to the right, the passenger side!!!! I thought when you
said you got doored that some one had opened their door into the street
and caught you. But if you were sqeezing up the inside of traffic,
between car and kerb, you've only yourself to blame.
Laters,
z
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 10:44:13
From: runcyclexcski@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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competent
> cycling technique.
>
Yes, I was incompetent, but there was no shoulder and a guard rail to
the righ (which I nicely got squeezed against).
There were some nice city riding videos posted recently, examples of
"competent" cycling, where they had dozens of chances of being doored
(and doored on purpose, too).
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 19:43:05
From: runcyclexcski@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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when I was doored, and happenned to wear earphones when it happenned,
this fact was indicated in the police report, and prevented me from
getting the medical costs from the ass*** who doored me. Like not
wearing a helmet. if you don't wear it, it will always be your fault if
anything happens to you.
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 12:50:23
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:
> when I was doored, and happenned to wear earphones when it happenned,
> this fact was indicated in the police report, and prevented me from
> getting the medical costs from the ass*** who doored me. Like not
> wearing a helmet. if you don't wear it, it will always be your fault if
> anything happens to you.
>
You got doored because you happened to be riding in the Door Zone. Stay
out of the Door Zone and you won't get doored. This is basic, competent
cycling technique.
Wayne
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 23:33:22
From: Terry Morse
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Somebody wrote:
> when I was doored, and happenned to wear earphones when it happenned,
> this fact was indicated in the police report, and prevented me from
> getting the medical costs from the ass*** who doored me. Like not
> wearing a helmet. if you don't wear it, it will always be your fault if
> anything happens to you.
Riding without a helmet is legal. Riding with earphones is not.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://udctours.com/
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 07:41:29
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Terry Morse wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
>
>> when I was doored, and happenned to wear earphones when it happenned,
>> this fact was indicated in the police report, and prevented me from
>> getting the medical costs from the ass*** who doored me. Like not
>> wearing a helmet. if you don't wear it, it will always be your fault
>> if anything happens to you.
> Riding without a helmet is legal. Riding with earphones is not.
Neither statement is categorically correct.
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 15:30:14
From: Chris Z The Wheelman
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Yes. A car driver in his super sound proof luxury yacht with the 100,000
watt stereo is legal, and motorcycles can have stereos inside their
helmets, but earplugs of any type are illegal in or on any vehicle.
Get a pair of portable speakers and slip them into a handlebar bag if
you absolutely must have music while you ride. At least that's legal.
- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner
To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 08:02:06
From: nash
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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>>Perhaps if you consider that hearing is not a reliable indicator of safety
when cycling you might understand why it is BEST to learn not to rely
on
hearing. Learning to be aware of your surroundings at all times will
SAVE
your life. <<
Excellent. I agree 200%. Just look at all the Ambulance trips to
save lives that are stopped because of stupid, supposedly deaf drivers.
I never see any cyclists blocking Ambulance drivers do you? They
inadvertenly cause the death of many.
Also, these days if you get a driver test you are suppose to look
at the rear view mirrors every 8 seconds or fail. in BC at least. If
you do that on a bicycle I think that would be sufficient. I also use
an iPod while riding, lots off road, however, and Surrey Police
ride/drive right by all the time. Though I did not have too I bought
ear buds which are less noticeable and can be used one at a time.
Take back the street.
Enjoy
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 19:15:37
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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In article <1155432160.062633.258590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"z" <zjennings@gmail.com > writes:
>
> Hadron Quark wrote:
>> "DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Very interesting discussion.
>> >
>> > Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
>> > playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
>> > that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they
>> > favor.
>>
>> Its incredibly dangerous. Every ability you have at your disposal to
>> pick up and process ambient dangers is a bonus. I have seen couriers
>> especially involved in loads of accidents because they did *hear* car
>> coming around the corner.
>
> Rubbish. What exactly will your sense of hearing tell you about a car
> behind you?
In my own case, it will tell me nothing. I usually can't hear stuff
going on behind me, unless it's really extreme, like a driver immediately
behind me doing a brake stand to express his impatience about having a
bicycle in front of him, while we're waiting-out a red light.
But I do make good use of hearing for stuff going on in front of me --
e.g: if I hear a car door slam or an engine starting up, that tells me
a pull-out up ahead is imminent.
Incidentally, I've lately noticed some /riders/ yacking on their cells
on the fly. So if drivers are to be prohibited from doing so, what
about riders?
cheers,
Tom
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 18:22:40
From: Marz
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Hadron Quark wrote:
> "DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Very interesting discussion.
> >
> > Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
> > playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
> > that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they
> > favor.
>
> Its incredibly dangerous. Every ability you have at your disposal to
> pick up and process ambient dangers is a bonus. I have seen couriers
> especially involved in loads of accidents because they did *hear* car
> coming around the corner.
Rubbish. What exactly will your sense of hearing tell you about a car
behind you? If you are riding in such a way that you feel you need to
take evasive action for every car then maybe you should get off the
road.
Laters,
z
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 17:33:34
From: Hadron Quark
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Set<@setnet.com > writes:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally) wrote:
>
>>In article <1155307561.095320.79090@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
>>DC1999 <dc1999@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
>>>forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
>>>auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
>>
>>illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>
> So, deaf riders...arrest them on the spot? ;-)
>
> And, cyclists dangerous to cars? Oh really; how?
>
How do you think? Go on : try.
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 17:32:49
From: Hadron Quark
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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"DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com > writes:
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
> playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
> that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they
> favor.
Its incredibly dangerous. Every ability you have at your disposal to
pick up and process ambient dangers is a bonus. I have seen couriers
especially involved in loads of accidents because they did *hear* car
coming around the corner.
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 08:18:49
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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Hadron Quark wrote:
:: "DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com > writes:
::
::: Very interesting discussion.
:::
::: Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
::: playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've
::: noted that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand
::: they favor.
::
:: Its incredibly dangerous.
So, just wearing earbugs/mp3 making cycling inredibly dangerous? How
dangerous is cycling when you're not wearing earbugs? Very dangerous?
:: Every ability you have at your disposal to
:: pick up and process ambient dangers is a bonus.
Have you considered that your hearing can mislead you into thinking it's
safe to move into a lane when it is not? Since hearing is unreliable, I
think it is best to learn NOT to use it.
:: I have seen couriers
:: especially involved in loads of accidents because they did *hear* car
:: coming around the corner.
Are you making my case?
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 11:46:57
From: Set
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:32:49 +0200, Hadron Quark <hadronquark@gmail.com >
wrote:
>"DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Very interesting discussion.
>>
>> Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
>> playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
>> that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they
>> favor.
>
>Its incredibly dangerous. Every ability you have at your disposal to
>pick up and process ambient dangers is a bonus. I have seen couriers
>especially involved in loads of accidents because they did *hear* car
>coming around the corner.
Nonsense. What do you consider 'danger'? Of all cyclists on trails if
there's ever a crash or injury it's so rare you hear about it in the news.
Sure, there's a "danger" of bumping or collision, but it's all minor.
Skydiving, arguably, is dangerous. Riding bike paths with earbuds is tame.
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 07:35:03
From: DC1999
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
Very interesting discussion.
Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they favor.
Now, drivers using cell phones ... that's another issue and the degree
of danger to others from a 3000+ pound vehicle going 35 mph has to be
vastly above any danger an iPod using cyclist might present. Yet, no
state legislature has chosen to ban cell phones use (or using radios,
eating burgers, listening to mother-in-law in the back seat) while
driving a motor vehicle, only earphones and earplugs.
What it's probably going to take here in CA is some legislator's kid
being killed by a cell-phone using miscreant. Or, an off the wall
appellate court opinion that the cell phone companies have to share
liability for negligent users of their product.
Just my opinion.
Dave
DC1999 wrote:
> Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
> forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
> auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
> This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
> bike trails.
>
> 27400. A person operating a motor vehicle or bicycle may not wear a
> headset covering, or earplugs in, both ears. This prohibition does
> not apply to any of the following:
> (a) A person operating authorized emergency vehicles, as defined
> in Section 165.
> (b) A person engaged in the operation of either special
> construction equipment or equipment for use in the maintenance of any
> highway.
> (c) A person engaged in the operation of refuse collection
> equipment who is wearing a safety headset or safety earplugs.
> (d) A person wearing personal hearing protectors in the form of
> earplugs or molds that are specifically designed to attenuate
> injurious noise levels. The plugs or molds shall be designed in a
> manner so as to not inhibit the wearer's ability to hear a siren or
> horn from an emergency vehicle or a horn from another motor vehicle.
>
> (e) A person using a prosthetic device that aids the hard of
> hearing.
>
> (copied from findlaw.com)
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 21:09:22
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On 12 Aug 2006 07:35:03 -0700, "DC1999" <dc1999@gmail.com > wrote:
>Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
>playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous.
Neither do the legislators in most countries.
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Date: 12 Aug 2006 10:57:00
From: Jeanne
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
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DC1999 wrote:
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> Personally, I don't agree that riding on a bike trail with earbuds
> playing from an MP3-iPod device is particularly dangerous. I've noted
> that quite a few local cyclists use iPods or whatever brand they favor.
>
>
Actually I think one needs to be even more aware on a bike trail. There
are many non-bike users ("bike trails" are sometimes just called
"trails") and there are little children riding. And then, you have the
"Lance-a-bees" who think one can/should be able to do 25 mph on trails
and yell "On your left" a millisecond before passing.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 22:22:21
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On 11 Aug 2006 07:46:01 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, "DC1999"
<dc1999@gmail.com > wrote:
> Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
> forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
> auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
> This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
> bike trails.
>
yep. not only illegal, but just plain stupid.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 16:59:15
From: Rick
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
Set wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2006 14:38:35 -0700, pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Andrew Price wrote:
> >> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
> >>
> >> In your opinion.
> >
> >Opinion based on personal experience.
> >
> >Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
> >with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
> >from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
> >solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
> >many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
>
> So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled up.
> Arrest them on the spot?
>
> >Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
> >a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
> >would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
> >while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
> >(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
> >proved useful over the years).
> >
> >Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
> >headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard of a
> >direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though they could
> >impair hearing).
>
> I think they'd do better lowering the accident statistics if they enforced
> the ban on drivers using cell phones than worrying about a few cyclists
> listening to tunes at 12-15mph.
The earplug statute in question is from the California Vehicle Code.
In California there is no ban in cell phone use, ergo there can be no
enforcement. My good neighbor to the north, Joe Simitian, has on
occasion tried to introduce legislation to require hands-free
operation, only, but that has been killed by special interests. While I
would love to see restrictions on cell phone use, in most jurisdictions
it ain't going to happen ... folks are too in love with their talk
boxes.
That said, I pass too many clueless iPod/MP3 player riders on the roads
these days; they do not hear me approach, they do not hear me call out
that I am passing, on occasion they have veered into me. Count me as
one in favor of either enforcing the earplug/headphone ban or requiring
that compensatory devices to allow the users to have a sense of their
surroundings (mirrors, etc.) as an alternative.
- rick
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:38:35
From:
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
Andrew Price wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
> wrote:
>
> >illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>
> In your opinion.
Opinion based on personal experience.
Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
proved useful over the years).
Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard of a
direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though they could
impair hearing).
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 08:10:08
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
:: Andrew Price wrote:
::: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
::: wrote:
:::
:::: illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
:::
::: In your opinion.
::
:: Opinion based on personal experience.
::
:: Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
:: with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can
:: hear from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's
:: not dump solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging
:: levels, I expect many of them cannot hear anything at all from their
:: surroundings.
::
:: Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This
:: adds a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level
:: that you would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally
:: your hearing while cycling/driving, it should not significantly
:: raise your risk (although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using
:: your hearing; mine has proved useful over the years).
Perhaps if you consider that hearing is not a reliable indicator of safety
when cycling you might understand why it is BEST to learn not to rely on
hearing. Learning to be aware of your surroundings at all times will SAVE
your life.
::
:: Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
:: headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard
:: of a direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though
:: they could impair hearing).
I suppose the deaf should not be allowed to drive or ride a bike, huh?
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 10:23:25
From: wvantwiller
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in
news:12du5l1k57c7u66@news.supernews.com:
...
>
> I suppose the deaf should not be allowed to drive or ride a bike, huh?
>
>
(Had some posts swallowed by the Monster of Loch Usenet, so this might be a
duplicate...)
I wonder how motorcyclists avoid having an accident every time they go out
when most enclosed helmets have NO accomodations for hearing AND they're
riding in REAL traffic.
As many have pointed out here, hearing has little to do with avoiding an
accident, especially when most of us really default to vision to react in
avoidance. Last stupid accident I was in was due to both a car and myself
being in the middle of the road while coming around a corner; there was no
collision, but I got jacked over the handlebars during the manuver.
Hearing didn't and wouldn't have prevented anything.
And, the law quoted seems to imply it's meant to ensure riders can sense
EMERGENCY and LAW ENFORCEMENT vehicles. They're usually loud enough that I
slow down as a car driver even when they're invisible and on a cross
street.
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Date: 13 Aug 2006 09:54:01
From: Doc O'Leary
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
In article <4786d$44df35dd$18ec69a4$9276@KNOLOGY.NET >,
wvantwiller <wvantwiller@knickerbocker.com > wrote:
> I wonder how motorcyclists avoid having an accident every time they go out
> when most enclosed helmets have NO accomodations for hearing AND they're
> riding in REAL traffic.
As an also motorcyclist, let me say that even a full-faced helmet does
not provide half the sound isolation that most cars have. Many ride
with additional ear plugs! I'm not exactly sure what the intent of the
headphone laws are, but they certainly don't seem consistent given the
mix of vehicles and drivers that are out on the road. My own take is
that the issue is mainly one of distraction, and so I seldom add extra
decibels to the mix unless I'm damn confident it won't have a major
affect on my focus.
--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org
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| | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 17:50:13
From: Set
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On 11 Aug 2006 14:38:35 -0700, pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
>
>Andrew Price wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>>
>> In your opinion.
>
>Opinion based on personal experience.
>
>Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
>with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
>from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
>solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
>many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled up.
Arrest them on the spot?
>Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
>a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
>would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
>while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
>(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
>proved useful over the years).
>
>Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
>headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard of a
>direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though they could
>impair hearing).
I think they'd do better lowering the accident statistics if they enforced
the ban on drivers using cell phones than worrying about a few cyclists
listening to tunes at 12-15mph.
On any given outing I might see 1 or 2 riders with earphones, but almost
every other driver is on the cellphone.
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| | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2006 19:36:47
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
>>Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
>>with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
>>from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
>>solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
>>many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
>
> So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled
> up.
> Arrest them on the spot?
I'd go for that! Are you saying you wouldn't? You don't think that driving
under such conditions reduces your awareness of the surroundings? That such
a person wouldn't have a problem hearing, for example, an ambulance or
fire-engine siren?
> I think they'd do better lowering the accident statistics if they enforced
> the ban on drivers using cell phones than worrying about a few cyclists
> listening to tunes at 12-15mph.
There is no such ban on cell phones (yet) in California.
>>Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
>>a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
>>would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
>>while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
>>(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
>>proved useful over the years).
There have been many, not just a few, times when I've heard something
dangerous approaching from behind. Or, for that matter, heard someone who
was riding behind me crash or get a flat. In either instance, my hearing,
and only my hearing, allowed me to react to the situation in a way that was
better than if I didn't hear whatever it was.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Set" <@setnet.com > wrote in message
news:fmupd2d0vl4k878o1ic2ck8b107h7e0ipq@4ax.com...
> On 11 Aug 2006 14:38:35 -0700, pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Andrew Price wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>>>
>>> In your opinion.
>>
>>Opinion based on personal experience.
>>
>>Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
>>with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
>>from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
>>solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
>>many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
>
> So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled
> up.
> Arrest them on the spot?
>
>>Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
>>a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
>>would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
>>while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
>>(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
>>proved useful over the years).
>>
>>Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
>>headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard of a
>>direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though they could
>>impair hearing).
>
> I think they'd do better lowering the accident statistics if they enforced
> the ban on drivers using cell phones than worrying about a few cyclists
> listening to tunes at 12-15mph.
>
> On any given outing I might see 1 or 2 riders with earphones, but almost
> every other driver is on the cellphone.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 21:52:44
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
"Set" <@setnet.com > wrote in message
news:fmupd2d0vl4k878o1ic2ck8b107h7e0ipq@4ax.com...
> On 11 Aug 2006 14:38:35 -0700, pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Andrew Price wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>>>
>>> In your opinion.
>>
>>Opinion based on personal experience.
>>
>>Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
>>with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
>>from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
>>solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
>>many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
>
> So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled
> up.
> Arrest them on the spot?
What about all the hearing impaired drivers? I live in Florida, among senior
citizens, and I can attest that a good percentage of them are hard of
hearing. Add to that they are driving luxury cars with the A/C and radio on,
WITH the windows up, and hearing becomes one of the senses they do not use
to drive.
>>Bottom line is that it does impair ***one*** of your senses. This adds
>>a degree of risk proportional to the impairment and the level that you
>>would normally use your hearing. If you do not normally your hearing
>>while cycling/driving, it should not significantly raise your risk
>>(although I'd wonder ***why*** you are not using your hearing; mine has
>>proved useful over the years).
>>
>>Many North American jurisdictions prohibit anything in the way of
>>headphones that would impair your hearing (oddly, I've never heard of a
>>direct prohibition on obnoxiously loud stereos, even though they could
>>impair hearing).
>
> I think they'd do better lowering the accident statistics if they enforced
> the ban on drivers using cell phones than worrying about a few cyclists
> listening to tunes at 12-15mph.
>
> On any given outing I might see 1 or 2 riders with earphones, but almost
> every other driver is on the cellphone.
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT. I sometimes play "count the cell phones" when I'm
driving. The amount of cell phone usage is astounding. I don't understand
the appeal. Are people so busy that they cannot have time out of contact
with people? What is so important?
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 Aug 2006 13:43:54
From: rdclark
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
Chris Z The Wheelman wrote:
> Many posteres asked:
>
> >"What about the hearing impared?"
>
> Or words t that effect.
>
> If you'll read down to the bottom of that legal list, you'll notice that
> devices designed to help the hearing impared (hearing aids) are an
> exception to this restriction.
That's not the question. The question, addressed to those who insist
that hearing is necessary to safety on a bike, is "what about the
hearing impaired?" Are they inherently unsafe? Should they be banned
from cycling? From driving?
The answer is, of course, that hearing isn't necessary for safety, but
devoting the attention of all your available senses is.
RichC
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 Aug 2006 15:35:49
From: Chris Z The Wheelman
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
Many posteres asked:
>"What about the hearing impared?"
Or words t that effect.
If you'll read down to the bottom of that legal list, you'll notice that
devices designed to help the hearing impared (hearing aids) are an
exception to this restriction.
doh!
- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner
To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:19:55
From: Set
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:52:44 GMT, "Gooserider"
<Gooserider@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
>>>Even at a moderate volume (one at which I can carry on a conversation
>>>with a person beside me), my iPod significantly reduces what I can hear
>>>from the surroundings. Given that many MP3 enthusiasts (let's not dump
>>>solely on iPods) crank the volume to hearing-damaging levels, I expect
>>>many of them cannot hear anything at all from their surroundings.
>>
>> So drivers with big woofers, and tunes blasting, A/C on, windows rolled
>> up.
>> Arrest them on the spot?
>
>What about all the hearing impaired drivers? I live in Florida, among senior
>citizens, and I can attest that a good percentage of them are hard of
>hearing. Add to that they are driving luxury cars with the A/C and radio on,
>WITH the windows up, and hearing becomes one of the senses they do not use
>to drive.
My friend rides with an MP3 player and though I don't particularly like it
and I worry about him, he seems to have no trouble whatsoever. He's just an
average cyclist. All he needs, he says, is his eyeglass mirror. I don't
wear one, having tried it occasionally on the bike path. I found the whole
deal of running the wires and getting the headphones on each time a bit
annoying.
But, the point is, there are relatively few cyclists out there each day and
these riders have little impact on drivers, neither causing them harm nor
but a few seconds delay, on a very occasional basis.
The anti-cycling crowd has to scramble for every little complaint they can
think of, including trying to create a media impression that there are
these supposedly ubiquitous evil cycling scofflaws, running down dozens of
pedestrians each hour and creating massive and intentional gridlock.
The funny lycra outfits, reminding drivers of how out of shape they are,
probably is the top complaint, but they can not figure out a way to make
that illegal, plus it's probably embarrassing to admit.
So, instead, they focus on things like running a stop sign on a deserted
back road, or targeting the occasional rider listening to tunes as some
kind of criminal.
In fact it's not the listening to tunes, since we've shown drivers are even
more routinely hearing-impaired in their closed in boxes. Most of the time
it's easy to see by the dangling cords that someone is wearing headphones
With the advent of eyeglass and miniature MP3 devices soon it won't be
obvious and we can all ignore this rule. ;-)
In fact I'm surprised that nobody's come along with a clear or
flesh-colored earbud, lol.
|
| |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24
From: sally
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
In article <1155307561.095320.79090@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
DC1999 <dc1999@gmail.com > wrote:
>Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
>forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
>auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
|
| | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 22:06:24
From: George Farnsworth
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
sally wrote:
>
> illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
Dangerous or not, if it is illegal AND you get involved in an accident
with both ears plugged-in, a st lawyer will claim that it's all your
fault and therefore you deserve nothing and may have pay for the dent
your head made in the poor driver's window.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:22:29
From: Set
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:06:24 GMT, George Farnsworth
<George@GFarnsworth.com > wrote:
>sally wrote:
>>
>> illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>
>Dangerous or not, if it is illegal AND you get involved in an accident
>with both ears plugged-in, a st lawyer will claim that it's all your
>fault and therefore you deserve nothing and may have pay for the dent
>your head made in the poor driver's window.
Especially if you crazy glue them in. ;-D
|
| | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 17:45:33
From: Set
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally) wrote:
>In article <1155307561.095320.79090@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
>DC1999 <dc1999@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
>>forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
>>auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
>
>illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
So, deaf riders...arrest them on the spot? ;-)
And, cyclists dangerous to cars? Oh really; how?
|
| | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 22:33:50
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
wrote:
>illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
In your opinion.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 21:12:21
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
"Andrew Price" <ajprice@free.fr > wrote in message
news:tcqpd2l58u9h2hq25th2949dp31pqugs40@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC), caspam@doj.ca.gov (sally)
> wrote:
>
>>illegal and dangerous, for both cyclists and car drivers
>
> In your opinion.
I agree. It may be illegal but that doesn't mean it's dangerous, if done
responsibly. Toodling down the middle of a MUT oblivious to the
world----dangerous. Hammering on the street while constantly checking my
mirror---not so much.
|
| |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 10:39:49
From: Rick
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
DC1999 wrote:
> Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
> forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
> auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
> This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
> bike trails.
>
> 27400. A person operating a motor vehicle or bicycle may not wear a
> headset covering, or earplugs in, both ears. This prohibition does
> not apply to any of the following:
> (a) A person operating authorized emergency vehicles, as defined
> in Section 165.
> (b) A person engaged in the operation of either special
> construction equipment or equipment for use in the maintenance of any
> highway.
> (c) A person engaged in the operation of refuse collection
> equipment who is wearing a safety headset or safety earplugs.
> (d) A person wearing personal hearing protectors in the form of
> earplugs or molds that are specifically designed to attenuate
> injurious noise levels. The plugs or molds shall be designed in a
> manner so as to not inhibit the wearer's ability to hear a siren or
> horn from an emergency vehicle or a horn from another motor vehicle.
>
> (e) A person using a prosthetic device that aids the hard of
> hearing.
>
General impression is that yes, wearing any device that puts something
over or inserted into both ears is illegal in California (many other
states have similar statutes). Around here, at this time, it appears
to be poorly enforced. My guess is that if the City of Irvine went to
the trouble of putting up a reminder sign then it is their intention to
enforce.
- rick
|
| |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:53:05
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
DC1999 wrote:
> Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
> forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
> auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
Not if you're trying to find a loophole to allow them (see (d) below).
I use ear buds, but I'm not above removing the left one when encountering a
cop. (I would think what they're /really/ looking for is someone cruising
along totally oblivious to his or her surroundings. So look aware!)
> This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
> bike trails.
>
> 27400. A person operating a motor vehicle or bicycle may not wear a
> headset covering, or earplugs in, both ears. This prohibition does
> not apply to any of the following:
> (a) A person operating authorized emergency vehicles, as defined
> in Section 165.
> (b) A person engaged in the operation of either special
> construction equipment or equipment for use in the maintenance of any
> highway.
> (c) A person engaged in the operation of refuse collection
> equipment who is wearing a safety headset or safety earplugs.
> (d) A person wearing personal hearing protectors in the form of
> earplugs or molds that are specifically designed to attenuate
> injurious noise levels. The plugs or molds shall be designed in a
> manner so as to not inhibit the wearer's ability to hear a siren or
> horn from an emergency vehicle or a horn from another motor vehicle.
>
> (e) A person using a prosthetic device that aids the hard of
> hearing.
>
> (copied from findlaw.com)
|
| |
Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:08:53
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Illegal iPod While Cycling?
|
In article <1155307561.095320.79090@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >, dc1999
@gmail.com says...
> Here's a copy of California Vehicle Code sect 27400, which appears to
> forbid the use of earplugs or headsets of any kind while driving an
> auto or bicycle. Are the iPod's "earbuds" the same as "earplugs?"
> This code section is cited and displayed on a sign on one of Irvine's
> bike trails.
I would assume so. If it goes into the ear, it's an earplug.
> 27400. A person operating a motor vehicle or bicycle may not wear a
> headset covering, or earplugs in, both ears.
^^^^^^^^^
-----------------------------------------^
Interesting. It would seem that you could wear an earbud in one ear, but not
both. You might get to have your iPod and eat, errr, jam to it, too.
--
__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)
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|
