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Main
Date: 03 Oct 2007 14:49:39
From: John Everett
Subject: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
story.
Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
(Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
about $3500.
I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
is that?
Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
he's managed to do this with his bike.
I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
the story. ;-)
--
jeverett3<AT >sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 06 Oct 2007 01:32:17
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 5, 10:12 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> >> I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a
> >> bit
> >> different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone
> >> who
> >> is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
> >> want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort
> >> of
> >> thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was
> >> not
> >> only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to
> >> test-ride
> >> the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
>
> > I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
> > it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
> > reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
> > 'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
> > to female cyclists at the LBS.
>
> >> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
> >> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
> >> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
> >> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
> >> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
> >> But
> >> that's typically not the case.
>
> >> If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
> >> bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk
> >> to
> >> someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
>
> > I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
> > and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
> > they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
> > than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
> > they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
> > at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.
>
> I think you got me all wrong. If you can understand why someone wants a
> particular bike and how they'd like to ride, your odds increase not of just
> selling them an appropriate bike, but they're also likely to spend quite a
> bit more money as well. "Temple massages and chakra therapy?" You don't know
> me very well (which makes sense, unless you're one of our customers). I'm
> anything but a touchy-feely kind of guy. My point, which apparently was
> lost, was that a great many sales go awry because the salesperson is more
> interested in the type of riding he or she does than what might be of
> interest to the customer. Basically it comes down to listening more and
> talking less.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191567156.803628.71260@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 4, 7:07 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
> >> I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a
> >> bit
> >> different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone
> >> who
> >> is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
> >> want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort
> >> of
> >> thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was
> >> not
> >> only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to
> >> test-ride
> >> the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
>
> > I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
> > it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
> > reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
> > 'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
> > to female cyclists at the LBS.
>
> >> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
> >> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
> >> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
> >> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
> >> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
> >> But
> >> that's typically not the case.
>
> >> If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
> >> bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk
> >> to
> >> someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
>
> > I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
> > and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
> > they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
> > than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
> > they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
> > at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.
>
> > I've found over the years that the shop's most experienced and
> > knowledgable hands are the ones least inclined to tell you what to do,
> > as they realize that so much in cycling comes down to personal
> > preference. But successful shops are stocked not just with those guys,
> > but with some fledgling rookie bike nerds as well. The employees that
> > are still learning are the ones who are really _sure_ of things if you
> > know what I mean, acting out in their insecurity perhaps, and it can
> > get pretty tiresome when someone who knows less than you gives
> > patronizing attitude. I think that's what my girlfriend ran into that
> > day.
>
> > Robert
I don't know. Sure there are folks who may need a bit of guidance so
you can facilitate their cycling dreams and facilitate the flow of
their money into your account. To these people you may need to listen,
which would presumably involve asking a few questions to 'understand
why someone wants a particular bike and how they'd like to ride.' But
then there are people who feel they don't need any help figuring out
what they've already figured out, they have already pretty much
decided to swipe their card at your shop, and if you ask them to
explain themselves and what type of riding they plan to do after they
request to see and ride a specific bike, it's just going to be an
aggravation for them. Kind of like having to deal with the troll
before crossing the bridge. That's why my girlfriend took her card to
the other shop.
Robert
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 08:59:46
From: Will
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 4, 11:03 pm, Brian Jenks <jenks.br...@gmail.com > wrote:
> ... as we're the shop responsible for
> the situation, the least we can do is help to sell it for him. ALL $
> would go directly to the customer (or into a replacement if we could
> believe it wasn't a lost cause). We are after all in a better
> position to sell it than he is, and getting the cash back for him
> would take some of the sting out for all involved.
Seems to me that maybe what your erstwhile customer needs is a riding
partner. He's got himself equipped to the 9's, now it is show time and
he might not want to go out alone.
There are the usual complications... he's too weak to go with your
shop ride, for example, and the local club is riding at 18 or 20 mph
and he's good for maybe 10, or less. And he won't fit socially since
he's so much older. But there's got to be a couple of folks he can go
out with. Perhaps this is something you can help him network into.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 10:09:50
From: John Everett
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:49:39 GMT, I wrote:
>I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week.
<snip >
I posted my original article hoping I'd included enough details that
someone would recognize the situation. Note that I (twice) said there
had to be another side to the story. Thanks to Greg Priddy for
recognizing the LBS in question and Brian Jenks, proprietor of said
shop (HubBub) who fully documented his side of the transaction.
It's really too bad such a nice bike is sitting idle. I hope Brian and
his customer are able to come to some satisfactory solution.
--
jeverett3<AT >sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 06 Oct 2007 06:44:33
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
John Everett wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:49:39 GMT, I wrote:
>
>
>>I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> I posted my original article hoping I'd included enough details that
> someone would recognize the situation. Note that I (twice) said there
> had to be another side to the story. Thanks to Greg Priddy for
> recognizing the LBS in question and Brian Jenks, proprietor of said
> shop (HubBub) who fully documented his side of the transaction.
>
> It's really too bad such a nice bike is sitting idle. I hope Brian and
> his customer are able to come to some satisfactory solution.
>
So, are you the customer, or are you not? That has not been answered
clearly. There are still quite a few differences in the accounts.
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Date: 10 Oct 2007 18:26:38
From: John Everett
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 06:44:33 -0500, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com > wrote:
>John Everett wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:49:39 GMT, I wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week.
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I posted my original article hoping I'd included enough details that
>> someone would recognize the situation. Note that I (twice) said there
>> had to be another side to the story. Thanks to Greg Priddy for
>> recognizing the LBS in question and Brian Jenks, proprietor of said
>> shop (HubBub) who fully documented his side of the transaction.
>>
>> It's really too bad such a nice bike is sitting idle. I hope Brian and
>> his customer are able to come to some satisfactory solution.
>>
>
>
>So, are you the customer, or are you not? That has not been answered
>clearly. There are still quite a few differences in the accounts.
It was answered clearly in my original posting.
--
jeverett3<AT >sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 11 Oct 2007 10:43:04
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
John Everett wrote:
>
>>
>>So, are you the customer, or are you not? That has not been answered
>>clearly. There are still quite a few differences in the accounts.
>
>
> It was answered clearly in my original posting.
>
>
All you would have had to say was to reply "no, it wasn't me," but you
didn't expressly say it. No problem.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 13:30:43
From: Brian Jenks
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 5, 1:07 am, mark <markfel...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Brian Jenks wrote:
> >...suspecting he may frequently encounter
> > less than ideal treatment elsewhere.
>
> The folks "elsewhere" had this guy figured out?
Supposing they did, having someone "figured out" justifies treating
him or her poorly?
> When I bought a Marinoni road bike from the US importer, I paid a
> deposit ($100?) when I placed the order, I paid the complete cost of the
> frame when the frame was complete and ready to be built up, and I paid
> the balance before the bike was shipped to me. Seems like a reasonable
> way of doing business to me, and it seems to me you could have saved
> yourself a fair bit of grief by doing this. I did more or less the same
> thing when I bought my Riv frame, put up $300 to get my name on the
> waiting list, and I think I made another payment before the frame was
> painted, and paid the balance before the frame was shipped. I note that
> Vanilla Cycles requires a substantial deposit to get on their waiting
> list, too.
We take a much larger deposit than $100 or $300. Getting paid for the
job was never an issue. We still have a lot to learn but we've been
doing this for a long time, and that part of doing business comes
early, or you don't survive. I'm not sure how the monetary exchange
factors into this.
> My impression is that this guy got a kick out of talking bikes, liked
> the attention you gave him when he bugged you with all his variations on
> the same stupid questions, and felt like quite the sophisticated cyclist
> picking out all those neat components. Then when the bike was finally
> finished he realized what he'd gotten himself into, got cold feet, and
> looked for a way out. Telling his version of the whole sordid tale to
> Mr. Everett strikes me as a good way to rationalize his crappy behavior,
> and maybe get a little more attention for himself.
I'd say this is an extremely accurate assessment, except the cold feet
came AFTER we were paid.
> I encountered a few people like this gentleman during my brief retail
> career (ski shops), and I suspect that high end sports shops attract a
> fair number of this type of personality. I have to say, though, I don't
> think I ever met quite as extreme an example as you describe.
We've dealt with a one or two before who turned out to be "afraid" of
their bikes... that was pretty weird, but this is certainly the most
extreme case we've run into.
> Just out of curiosity, what made you so positive this guy wasn't a
> candidate for one of your bicycles?
He was an infrequent window shopper for MANY years. It seemed he
would just come around once in a while to bumble through the shop,
check out what we were up to, and ask the same questions, again. Our
customers generally don't have the time or patience to do that. They
usually know what they want, and when they don't know exactly (that's
what WE are for), they certainly know how to "make it happen" anyway.
> And how gently (or firmly) did you
> try to steer him to a different shop or bicycle?
This is impossible to quantify, especially given the sheer number of
times we did. Some times were suggestive, and others were flat-out
explanations of why we thought something much less expensive might be
a better option. Since we don't offer anything less expensive, this
means going elsewhere. It certainly never reached point of pleading
or arguing.
Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
www.hubbub.com
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 10:28:08
From: mark
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
Brian Jenks wrote:
> On Oct 5, 1:07 am, mark <markfel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brian Jenks wrote:
>>> ...suspecting he may frequently encounter
>>> less than ideal treatment elsewhere.
>> The folks "elsewhere" had this guy figured out?
>
> Supposing they did, having someone "figured out" justifies treating
> him or her poorly?
>
He seems to have treated you guys rather poorly.
I and a few others should have figured out that you got your money from
the guy, and I'm glad to have my misunderstanding on that score corrected.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 00:38:34
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 4, 11:47 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net >
wrote:
> When out touring ;; I sometimes can't get my leg up over the panniers,
> bicycle, etc.
>
> So: I use a curb. Simple enough.
>
> The guy paid $3500 for a bicycle and he is complaining?
>
> Only in America.
>
> =================="John Everett" <jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote in message
>
> news:el97g3hjvmicgt2p1savj45nsea8j0ekn3@4ax.com...
>
> >I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
> > our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
> > disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
> > area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
> > story.
>
> > Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
> > balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
> > and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
> > shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
> > full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
> > (Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
> > about $3500.
>
> > I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
> > Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
> > to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
> > since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
> > suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
> > is that?
>
> > Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
> > Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
> > laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
> > back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
> > 'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
> > he's managed to do this with his bike.
>
> > I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
> > high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
> > he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
> > with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
> > the story. ;-)
>
> > --
> > jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
How does a guy get to have $3500 spare when he can be talked out of it
that easily?
Donga
|
| |
Date: 04 Oct 2007 23:52:36
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 4, 7:07 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a bit
> different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone who
> is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
> want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort of
> thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was not
> only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to test-ride
> the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
to female cyclists at the LBS.
> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great. But
> that's typically not the case.
>
> If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
> bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk to
> someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.
I've found over the years that the shop's most experienced and
knowledgable hands are the ones least inclined to tell you what to do,
as they realize that so much in cycling comes down to personal
preference. But successful shops are stocked not just with those guys,
but with some fledgling rookie bike nerds as well. The employees that
are still learning are the ones who are really _sure_ of things if you
know what I mean, acting out in their insecurity perhaps, and it can
get pretty tiresome when someone who knows less than you gives
patronizing attitude. I think that's what my girlfriend ran into that
day.
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 21:12:20
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
>> I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a
>> bit
>> different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone
>> who
>> is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
>> want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort
>> of
>> thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was
>> not
>> only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to
>> test-ride
>> the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
>
>
> I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
> it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
> reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
> 'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
> to female cyclists at the LBS.
>
>> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
>> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
>> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
>> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
>> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
>> But
>> that's typically not the case.
>>
>> If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
>> bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk
>> to
>> someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
>
> I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
> and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
> they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
> than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
> they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
> at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.
I think you got me all wrong. If you can understand why someone wants a
particular bike and how they'd like to ride, your odds increase not of just
selling them an appropriate bike, but they're also likely to spend quite a
bit more money as well. "Temple massages and chakra therapy?" You don't know
me very well (which makes sense, unless you're one of our customers). I'm
anything but a touchy-feely kind of guy. My point, which apparently was
lost, was that a great many sales go awry because the salesperson is more
interested in the type of riding he or she does than what might be of
interest to the customer. Basically it comes down to listening more and
talking less.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1191567156.803628.71260@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 7:07 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a
>> bit
>> different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone
>> who
>> is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
>> want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort
>> of
>> thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was
>> not
>> only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to
>> test-ride
>> the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
>
>
> I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
> it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
> reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
> 'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
> to female cyclists at the LBS.
>
>> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
>> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
>> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
>> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
>> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
>> But
>> that's typically not the case.
>>
>> If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
>> bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk
>> to
>> someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
>
> I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
> and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
> they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
> than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
> they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
> at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.
>
> I've found over the years that the shop's most experienced and
> knowledgable hands are the ones least inclined to tell you what to do,
> as they realize that so much in cycling comes down to personal
> preference. But successful shops are stocked not just with those guys,
> but with some fledgling rookie bike nerds as well. The employees that
> are still learning are the ones who are really _sure_ of things if you
> know what I mean, acting out in their insecurity perhaps, and it can
> get pretty tiresome when someone who knows less than you gives
> patronizing attitude. I think that's what my girlfriend ran into that
> day.
>
> Robert
>
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2007 16:25:46
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:12:20 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I think you got me all wrong. If you can understand why someone wants a
> particular bike and how they'd like to ride, your odds increase not of just
> selling them an appropriate bike, but they're also likely to spend quite a
> bit more money as well. "Temple massages and chakra therapy?" You don't know
> me very well (which makes sense, unless you're one of our customers). I'm
> anything but a touchy-feely kind of guy. My point, which apparently was
> lost, was that a great many sales go awry because the salesperson is more
> interested in the type of riding he or she does than what might be of
> interest to the customer. Basically it comes down to listening more and
> talking less.
Which makes you far more touchy-feely, at least in a psychological sense,
than the average bike shop staffer :-)
IME there's usually one valuable person in any bike shop, and the rest are
bored racers only interested in helping customers who ride the same
kind of bikes at the same kind of level that they do (i.e. they come in MTB
and road flavours). I suppose they're cheap and discourage shoplifting, but
that's about it.
Once I find the VP, I only visit during the hours they work there.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 20:35:05
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:52:36 -0700, r15757@aol.com wrote:
> I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
> it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
> reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
> 'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
> to female cyclists at the LBS.
It happened to a female friend I ride with at the first place when we went
shopping for her new bike, even though she's very lean and muscular.
They wanted to sell her an alloy bike supposedly designed for women -
floral paint job (yes, flowers!), triple, riser stem, clunker wheels etc.
No shopping basket, but doubtless available on request.
After that episode, I made sure they could see my bike, said "we
ride together", and there were no more problems :-)
|
| |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 04:03:58
From: Brian Jenks
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 4, 8:12 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition =AE"
<b...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> So the old fart didn't even pay for it after he made you do all that work,
> wasted your time and floor
> space? I say charge his ass for labor and storage and get a court order =
to
> ban him from within a 100 yard of your shop!
Actually we were paid for it but, as we're the shop responsible for
the situation, the least we can do is help to sell it for him. ALL $
would go directly to the customer (or into a replacement if we could
believe it wasn't a lost cause). We are after all in a better
position to sell it than he is, and getting the cash back for him
would take some of the sting out for all involved.
It's funny you mention having him banned. I've never been pushed to
that extreme, but a close friend of ours once managed a non-cycling
sporting goods retail store in town. He identified this client in our
store, many years ago, as having been thrown out of our friend's store
for stealing socks. We kept a close eye on him for a long time, but
never had any trouble. Now, after not being able to turn him away
(throwing him out would have been easy!) we find ourselves in an
opposite sour situation.
Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
www.hubbub.com
|
| | |
Date: 06 Oct 2007 00:49:37
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 04:03:58 -0000 in rec.bicycles.misc, Brian
Jenks <jenks.brian@gmail.com > wrote:
> It's funny you mention having him banned. I've never been pushed to
> that extreme, but a close friend of ours once managed a non-cycling
> sporting goods retail store in town. He identified this client in our
> store, many years ago, as having been thrown out of our friend's store
> for stealing socks. We kept a close eye on him for a long time, but
> never had any trouble. Now, after not being able to turn him away
> (throwing him out would have been easy!) we find ourselves in an
> opposite sour situation.
I've had situations where I've had to "fire" computer clients in
similar situations --- they insisted on ordering a machine and
software that did not suit either their needs or level of skill,
and then were either frustrated or totally lost, and always not
easily educated or trained.
I just told them that they needed to find another consultant,
because they were wasting their time and mine, as well as their
money. I actually had to use the block calling number feature of
my phone service to block their continued calls, since I had
other clients to take care of.
I think that if I had to deal with this customer, I would have
made sure he tried out one of the test bikes before I took any of
his money, to make sure he could actually ride. Or were his
balance and agility problems simply not visible?
|
| |
Date: 04 Oct 2007 19:11:58
From: Brian Jenks
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 4, 1:31 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
> world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things, despite
> good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted him
> to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
> close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
> worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
> actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
> like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being considered
> patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.
And more of the story you shall have. Thank you, Mike (and others),
for the benefit of doubt. As some may have guessed, we at HubBub are
the shop in question.
Your suspicions are actually surprisingly close to the truth. In fact
we have known this gentleman for many years. He would come into our
shop from time to time, but we never saw him as a potential client for
one of our bikes. We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
less than ideal treatment elsewhere. A couple years ago he again
began asking more questions about our processes and products we
offer. We humored him for many months, sometimes answering the same
questions MANY times, several different ways. We still didn't believe
he would ever come in wanting to actually buy a bike, and we even
tried to guide him to explore a couple other shops, feeling we may not
be the most appropriate choice for him.
Eventually, he did come for a full fitting. At that point (and I
remember this) we actually had a couple dinner-table conversations
about how to get out of what appeared to be an impending sale -
admittedly a difficult choice for a tiny custom-only bike shop. As
the client somehow further convinced himself this was the right
choice, we came to the conclusion, "He wants us to build him a bike.
How is that different from every other client who asks?" Maybe our
biggest mistake was not actually coming up with a good answer to that
question. Note that he had been telling us how he had been riding
(just like all our other customers). Additionally, we have built
bikes for people with poor flexibility, with great success, and he had
nowhere near the difficulties mounting our fitting machine like the
clients with issues.
He absolutely INSISTED upon a Co-Motion Americano, a fine choice of
course, but I had hoped for a choice that offered me a little more
flexibility in meeting his needs. Now, we are big Campy fans here,
but I made clear that I felt Shimano's versatility and more extensive
offerings were more suitable to his stated cycling intentions. Yes,
he insisted on Campagnolo components as well. We discussed every
detail of the bike, and of particular interest to him were color
combinations and polished parts. He agonized over which Brooks
leather saddle to choose. We stock Brooks but special ordered at
least two before he settled on the third one currently installed.
Much as I love my Brooks saddles, we certainly didn't want him
breaking one in. He was very insistent on that too. Keep in mind
that through all of this we were STILL trying to gently convince him
to try some other options - meaning other shops which actually stock
complete bicycles.
The fit parameters were finalized, the frame designed, built, and
delivered. We treated it with FrameSaver, installed the headset, and
set the frameset (in it's box for protection) high up on a shelf in
the back. Normally we put them on display for the couple days (or
even hours) before getting built-up, but we were still waiting for
final choices on components. Eventually all the details were ironed
out - wheels, handlebars, controls, brakes, gearing, tires, SADDLE,
rack, etc. - and we built the bike, about 5 months ago. (It sat on
our shelf in the back for at least 6 months, waiting for component
choices.)
All told, the initial order was placed about 14 months ago.
Eventually we had to press him so we could complete the build. To
this day it has never even been outside the door! (except likely for a
quick test-ride by the mechanic) Customers have been oohing and
aahing over it since we completed it several months ago, some even
expressed interest in buying it. We turned them down of course,
saying it belonged to somebody! The buyer came in a couple times to
see it, and seemed to like it very much. Whenever we tried to get him
to take it home and ride it he would respond with something about how
much he was traveling. Once he called to tell us how he wouldn't be
able to take the bike yet because he had sprained his wrist.
Eventually we called and asked more forcefully that he come pick it
up, explaining how it is more vulnerable to handling by customers, and
scratches, on the showroom floor now that it is built. He did finally
come in, with a brace on his wrist, and had FAR more difficulty
mounting and dismounting the bike than he did our fitting machine. We
reluctantly lowered the saddle well below its ideal height, at his
insistence, to help him. He made the choice himself not to take the
bike home with him, yet.
Now, allow me to be especially clear:
This man knows that Diane is a yoga instructor (she has a dedicated
studio as part of our shop) and asked many questions about his
"limberness" and weight, and their effects on his ability to ride.
This of course was discussed extensively at the time he placed his
order, and she patiently answered all of his questions, sometimes
repeatedly, and without ANY interest in having him for a student.
NEVER did Diane EVER "suggest he go home to work on his limberness".
There is always room for interpretation and, as several have pointed
out, more than one side to a story. We're not sure why Mr. Everette
felt compelled to write this second-hand story about our
"inappropriate service", but we actually need to thank him. There are
several statements and implications in his story that are factually
false and, while he chose to perpetuate them, regardless of his
knowledge of the truth, it has brought to our attention the urgency to
once again contact our customer and get the whole matter resolved.
So, thank you, Mr. Everette.
So, anyone interested in a brand-new, unridden, gorgeous green custom
Co-Motion Americano with 700c wheels, Campy triple, upright handlebars
and controls, set up for touring? We have a photograph (taken today)
available to anyone interested.
Also, for the record:
Sure, we make a living by selling and building custom bicycles, and
the more we sell the better. We however do not stock anything but
test-bikes. We therefore not only have ZERO motivation to move
inventory (we don't have) inappropriately, we have EVERY motivation to
strive to build the perfect bicycle for every client, since we're
starting from scratch every time, and want everyone to be so thrilled
that they can't stop talking about it. It's not a sales pitch, and
it's certainly not disparagement of shops who stock bikes... it's the
simple logic behind our model.
Thanks for reading.
Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
<http://www.hubbub.com >
|
| | |
Date: 04 Oct 2007 23:07:27
From: mark
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
Brian Jenks wrote:
We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
> respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
> especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
> less than ideal treatment elsewhere.
The folks "elsewhere" had this guy figured out?
When I bought a Marinoni road bike from the US importer, I paid a
deposit ($100?) when I placed the order, I paid the complete cost of the
frame when the frame was complete and ready to be built up, and I paid
the balance before the bike was shipped to me. Seems like a reasonable
way of doing business to me, and it seems to me you could have saved
yourself a fair bit of grief by doing this. I did more or less the same
thing when I bought my Riv frame, put up $300 to get my name on the
waiting list, and I think I made another payment before the frame was
painted, and paid the balance before the frame was shipped. I note that
Vanilla Cycles requires a substantial deposit to get on their waiting
list, too.
My impression is that this guy got a kick out of talking bikes, liked
the attention you gave him when he bugged you with all his variations on
the same stupid questions, and felt like quite the sophisticated cyclist
picking out all those neat components. Then when the bike was finally
finished he realized what he'd gotten himself into, got cold feet, and
looked for a way out. Telling his version of the whole sordid tale to
Mr. Everett strikes me as a good way to rationalize his crappy behavior,
and maybe get a little more attention for himself.
I encountered a few people like this gentleman during my brief retail
career (ski shops), and I suspect that high end sports shops attract a
fair number of this type of personality. I have to say, though, I don't
think I ever met quite as extreme an example as you describe.
Just out of curiosity, what made you so positive this guy wasn't a
candidate for one of your bicycles? And how gently (or firmly) did you
try to steer him to a different shop or bicycle?
mark
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 20:41:17
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:07:27 -0600, mark wrote:
> I encountered a few people like this gentleman during my brief retail
> career (ski shops), and I suspect that high end sports shops attract a
> fair number of this type of personality. I have to say, though, I don't
> think I ever met quite as extreme an example as you describe.
Everyone I know who works in a bike shop has to deal with a few compulsive
middle-aged time-wasters who come in once or twice a week, fondle
everything, ask endless questions and tell endless stories about their
cycling prowess,. but never buy anything.
You can help out your LBS by going in at quiet times, when these pests
are usually around, and rescuing the staff from them :-)
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 10:15:07
From: John Everett
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:41:17 +0930, Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au >
wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:07:27 -0600, mark wrote:
>
>> I encountered a few people like this gentleman during my brief retail
>> career (ski shops), and I suspect that high end sports shops attract a
>> fair number of this type of personality. I have to say, though, I don't
>> think I ever met quite as extreme an example as you describe.
>
>Everyone I know who works in a bike shop has to deal with a few compulsive
>middle-aged time-wasters who come in once or twice a week, fondle
>everything, ask endless questions and tell endless stories about their
>cycling prowess,. but never buy anything.
Guily as charged. A couple of weeks ago I was in Colorado and drove
into Idaho Springs to get a haircut. The barber shop was closed for
lunch, but was bext door to a bike shop. So I went in and wasted Jerry
Seigel's time for a half-hour or forty-five minutes or so talking
wheel-building. I didn't fondle anything but I did ask a bunch of
questions and we both talked a bit about our racing. Alas I didn't buy
anything.
--
jeverett3<AT >sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2007 11:44:51
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:15:07 -0500, John Everett wrote:
> Guily as charged. A couple of weeks ago I was in Colorado and drove
> into Idaho Springs to get a haircut. The barber shop was closed for
> lunch, but was bext door to a bike shop. So I went in and wasted Jerry
> Seigel's time for a half-hour or forty-five minutes or so talking
> wheel-building. I didn't fondle anything but I did ask a bunch of
> questions and we both talked a bit about our racing. Alas I didn't buy
> anything.
Sorry, you don't qualify unless you do it there at least once a week :-)
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2007 06:52:03
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
In article <owf9h5h3qbzu$.1k3n1lsjfobby$.dlg@40tude.net >,
Michael Warner <mvw@westnet.com.au > wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:15:07 -0500, John Everett wrote:
>
> > Guily as charged. A couple of weeks ago I was in Colorado and drove
> > into Idaho Springs to get a haircut. The barber shop was closed for
> > lunch, but was bext door to a bike shop. So I went in and wasted Jerry
> > Seigel's time for a half-hour or forty-five minutes or so talking
> > wheel-building. I didn't fondle anything but I did ask a bunch of
> > questions and we both talked a bit about our racing. Alas I didn't buy
> > anything.
>
> Sorry, you don't qualify unless you do it there at least once a week :-)
Er...
But I do sometimes buy stuff...
And I don't like to think of myself as middle-aged,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2007 02:33:01
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> ... I don't like to think of myself as middle-aged,
Nobody does, Ryan, nobody does.
--
Mike Kruger
(unless the alternative is "elderly")
|
| | |
Date: 04 Oct 2007 20:12:24
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
"Brian Jenks" <jenks.brian@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1191525118.906950.264350@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 1:31 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
>> world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things,
>> despite
>> good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted
>> him
>> to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
>> close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
>> worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
>> actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
>> like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being
>> considered
>> patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.
>>
>> I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.
>
> And more of the story you shall have. Thank you, Mike (and others),
> for the benefit of doubt. As some may have guessed, we at HubBub are
> the shop in question.
>
> Your suspicions are actually surprisingly close to the truth. In fact
> we have known this gentleman for many years. He would come into our
> shop from time to time, but we never saw him as a potential client for
> one of our bikes. We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
> respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
> especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
> less than ideal treatment elsewhere. A couple years ago he again
> began asking more questions about our processes and products we
> offer. We humored him for many months, sometimes answering the same
> questions MANY times, several different ways. We still didn't believe
> he would ever come in wanting to actually buy a bike, and we even
> tried to guide him to explore a couple other shops, feeling we may not
> be the most appropriate choice for him.
>
> Eventually, he did come for a full fitting. At that point (and I
> remember this) we actually had a couple dinner-table conversations
> about how to get out of what appeared to be an impending sale -
> admittedly a difficult choice for a tiny custom-only bike shop. As
> the client somehow further convinced himself this was the right
> choice, we came to the conclusion, "He wants us to build him a bike.
> How is that different from every other client who asks?" Maybe our
> biggest mistake was not actually coming up with a good answer to that
> question. Note that he had been telling us how he had been riding
> (just like all our other customers). Additionally, we have built
> bikes for people with poor flexibility, with great success, and he had
> nowhere near the difficulties mounting our fitting machine like the
> clients with issues.
>
> He absolutely INSISTED upon a Co-Motion Americano, a fine choice of
> course, but I had hoped for a choice that offered me a little more
> flexibility in meeting his needs. Now, we are big Campy fans here,
> but I made clear that I felt Shimano's versatility and more extensive
> offerings were more suitable to his stated cycling intentions. Yes,
> he insisted on Campagnolo components as well. We discussed every
> detail of the bike, and of particular interest to him were color
> combinations and polished parts. He agonized over which Brooks
> leather saddle to choose. We stock Brooks but special ordered at
> least two before he settled on the third one currently installed.
> Much as I love my Brooks saddles, we certainly didn't want him
> breaking one in. He was very insistent on that too. Keep in mind
> that through all of this we were STILL trying to gently convince him
> to try some other options - meaning other shops which actually stock
> complete bicycles.
>
> The fit parameters were finalized, the frame designed, built, and
> delivered. We treated it with FrameSaver, installed the headset, and
> set the frameset (in it's box for protection) high up on a shelf in
> the back. Normally we put them on display for the couple days (or
> even hours) before getting built-up, but we were still waiting for
> final choices on components. Eventually all the details were ironed
> out - wheels, handlebars, controls, brakes, gearing, tires, SADDLE,
> rack, etc. - and we built the bike, about 5 months ago. (It sat on
> our shelf in the back for at least 6 months, waiting for component
> choices.)
>
> All told, the initial order was placed about 14 months ago.
> Eventually we had to press him so we could complete the build. To
> this day it has never even been outside the door! (except likely for a
> quick test-ride by the mechanic) Customers have been oohing and
> aahing over it since we completed it several months ago, some even
> expressed interest in buying it. We turned them down of course,
> saying it belonged to somebody! The buyer came in a couple times to
> see it, and seemed to like it very much. Whenever we tried to get him
> to take it home and ride it he would respond with something about how
> much he was traveling. Once he called to tell us how he wouldn't be
> able to take the bike yet because he had sprained his wrist.
> Eventually we called and asked more forcefully that he come pick it
> up, explaining how it is more vulnerable to handling by customers, and
> scratches, on the showroom floor now that it is built. He did finally
> come in, with a brace on his wrist, and had FAR more difficulty
> mounting and dismounting the bike than he did our fitting machine. We
> reluctantly lowered the saddle well below its ideal height, at his
> insistence, to help him. He made the choice himself not to take the
> bike home with him, yet.
>
> Now, allow me to be especially clear:
> This man knows that Diane is a yoga instructor (she has a dedicated
> studio as part of our shop) and asked many questions about his
> "limberness" and weight, and their effects on his ability to ride.
> This of course was discussed extensively at the time he placed his
> order, and she patiently answered all of his questions, sometimes
> repeatedly, and without ANY interest in having him for a student.
> NEVER did Diane EVER "suggest he go home to work on his limberness".
> There is always room for interpretation and, as several have pointed
> out, more than one side to a story. We're not sure why Mr. Everette
> felt compelled to write this second-hand story about our
> "inappropriate service", but we actually need to thank him. There are
> several statements and implications in his story that are factually
> false and, while he chose to perpetuate them, regardless of his
> knowledge of the truth, it has brought to our attention the urgency to
> once again contact our customer and get the whole matter resolved.
> So, thank you, Mr. Everette.
>
> So, anyone interested in a brand-new, unridden, gorgeous green custom
> Co-Motion Americano with 700c wheels, Campy triple, upright handlebars
> and controls, set up for touring? We have a photograph (taken today)
> available to anyone interested.
>
> Also, for the record:
> Sure, we make a living by selling and building custom bicycles, and
> the more we sell the better. We however do not stock anything but
> test-bikes. We therefore not only have ZERO motivation to move
> inventory (we don't have) inappropriately, we have EVERY motivation to
> strive to build the perfect bicycle for every client, since we're
> starting from scratch every time, and want everyone to be so thrilled
> that they can't stop talking about it. It's not a sales pitch, and
> it's certainly not disparagement of shops who stock bikes... it's the
> simple logic behind our model.
>
> Thanks for reading.
> Regards,
> Brian Jenks
> HubBub Custom Bicycles
> <http://www.hubbub.com>
>
So the old fart didn't even pay for it after he made you do all that work,
wasted your time and floor
space? I say charge his ass for labor and storage and get a court order to
ban him from within a 100 yard of your shop!
|
| |
Date: 04 Oct 2007 07:42:31
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 3, 11:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
> world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things, despite
> good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted him
> to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
> close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
> worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
> actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
> like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being considered
> patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.
This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 05 Oct 2007 01:07:25
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
> This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
> to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
> racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
> to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
> cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
> wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
> level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
> left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.
I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a bit
different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone who
is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort of
thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was not
only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to test-ride
the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.
The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great. But
that's typically not the case.
If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk to
someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1191483751.310004.3510@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 3, 11:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
>> world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things,
>> despite
>> good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted
>> him
>> to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
>> close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
>> worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
>> actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
>> like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being
>> considered
>> patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.
>
> This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
> to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
> racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
> to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
> cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
> wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
> level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
> left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.
>
> Robert
>
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 21:17:53
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
> But that's typically not the case.
.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
Hey, that's exactly what happened to me! The guy said, "I wouldn't buy
anything under $2,000 and I'd get an Independent Fabrications or nothing at
all."
Pat in TX
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 22:21:05
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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"Pat" <Pat@starrynight.com > wrote in message
news:5mll6sFe78srU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
>> different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
>> salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
>> possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
>> his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
>> But that's typically not the case.
> .
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>
> Hey, that's exactly what happened to me! The guy said, "I wouldn't buy
> anything under $2,000 and I'd get an Independent Fabrications or nothing
> at all."
>
> Pat in TX
>
Was he a wrench or a sales idiot? You should have asked him, Where are all
the fine Huffys? Either way, I wouldn't let him fix a flat on my bike.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 13:41:01
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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>> Hey, that's exactly what happened to me! The guy said, "I wouldn't buy
>> anything under $2,000 and I'd get an Independent Fabrications or nothing
>> at all."
>>
>> Pat in TX
>>
>
> Was he a wrench or a sales idiot? You should have asked him, Where are
> all the fine Huffys? Either way, I wouldn't let him fix a flat on my
> bike.
He was a sales guy over at Richardson Bike Mart, back in the summer of 2001.
I remember my jaw dropping when he made that statement.
Pat in TX
>
>
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 16:43:45
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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>
> This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
> to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
> racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
> to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
> cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
> wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
> level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
> left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.
>
> Robert
My story is that the guy at the shop tried to dissuade me from buying the
Bianchi I wanted because it didn't cost over $2,000. He said, "There aren't
any sub-$2,000 bikes worth buying." So, I left and got it at another shop.
Pat in TX
>
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 07:35:26
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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On Oct 3, 11:39 pm, Michael Warner <m...@westnet.com.au > wrote:
> I'd be interested in hearing about other innovative ways of getting people
> onto bikes - lowered with a winch while one's squire holds the bike, maybe,
> like armour-laden knights of yore?
I like to jump off the top of the saloon directly onto the bicycle and
take off.
Seriously, there's always this one: start by standing next to the bike
with both hands on the bars. Adjust the left pedal so it is in about
10:30 position. Place left foot on left pedal, push off, and swing
right leg over saddle all in one motion. Feels awkward at first, takes
about five or ten tries to get the feel of it. This allows you to step
over the bike from the height of the pedal rather than the ground.
The other good ways have already been mentioned -- use a step of some
sort, curb works perfectly. Or lean the bike over enough to get the
leg over.
A saddle adjusted to the proper height is not always going to be the
easiest thing to get a leg over.
Robert
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 05:31:04
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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> Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
> balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
> and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
> shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
> full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
> (Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
> about $3500.
....
> I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
> high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
> he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
> with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
> the story. ;-)
We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things, despite
good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted him
to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being considered
patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.
I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"John Everett" <jeverett3@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net > wrote in message
news:el97g3hjvmicgt2p1savj45nsea8j0ekn3@4ax.com...
>I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
> our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
> disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
> area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
> story.
>
> Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
> balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
> and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
> shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
> full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
> (Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
> about $3500.
>
> I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
> Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
> to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
> since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
> suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
> is that?
>
> Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
> Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
> laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
> back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
> 'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
> he's managed to do this with his bike.
>
> I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
> high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
> he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
> with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
> the story. ;-)
>
>
>
>
> --
> jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 15:09:47
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 05:31:04 GMT, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.
I'd be interested in hearing about other innovative ways of getting people
onto bikes - lowered with a winch while one's squire holds the bike, maybe,
like armour-laden knights of yore?
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 01:47:31
From: Sir Thomas of Cannondale
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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When out touring ;; I sometimes can't get my leg up over the panniers,
bicycle, etc.
So: I use a curb. Simple enough.
The guy paid $3500 for a bicycle and he is complaining?
Only in America.
==================
"John Everett" <jeverett3@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net > wrote in message
news:el97g3hjvmicgt2p1savj45nsea8j0ekn3@4ax.com...
>I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
> our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
> disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
> area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
> story.
>
> Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
> balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
> and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
> shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
> full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
> (Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
> about $3500.
>
> I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
> Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
> to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
> since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
> suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
> is that?
>
> Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
> Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
> laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
> back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
> 'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
> he's managed to do this with his bike.
>
> I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
> high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
> he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
> with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
> the story. ;-)
>
>
>
>
> --
> jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 03 Oct 2007 18:45:48
From: DennisTheBald
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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The person is 68 years old and has balance problems? My first impulse
would be to get them on a catrike or wizwheels... but I guess the LBS
employee has gotta to sell the bikes that the store stocks.
The part of the story that sounds fishy is that the LBSer took 'em
from the front door to the fit-kit straight away. I've gone with my
mama to the bike shop and listened to her try to explain what she
wants enough to know that the root of the communications problem isn't
always on the end of the shop keeper. Mama's right in this person's
age group, she just bought a new Rans Zenetic Pro, it was considerably
less than what your Sierra club buddy paid, I think it's gonna be a
better match for her than the last two or three LBS purchases. The
trike was not an option for Mama as leaning her head back is just as
bad as leaning it forward, her's needs to be directly over her
shoulders all the time.
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Date: 03 Oct 2007 20:39:24
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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Dennis The Bald wrote:
> The person is 68 years old and has balance problems? My first impulse
> would be to get them on a catrike or wizwheels... but I guess the LBS
> employee has gotta to sell the bikes that the store stocks.
Once you ride a suspended trike, it is hard to put up with the
discomfort of a non-suspended trike; especially since you WILL end up
hitting a lot of potholes with the rear wheel. Catrike and WizWheelz,
take note!
> ...she just bought a new Rans Zenetic Pro...
Er, that is "RANS".
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 02:29:13
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
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Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Dennis The Bald wrote:
>
>> ...she just bought a new Rans Zenetic Pro...
>
> Er, that is "RANS".
>
First RANS vehicle had 3 wheels -- the sailtrike, complete with sail.
Here's a picture
http://www.ransbikes.com/aboutrans.htm
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Date: 03 Oct 2007 09:44:18
From:
Subject: Re: Inappropriate LBS Service
|
On Oct 3, 9:49 am, John Everett
<jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net > wrote:
> I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
> our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
> disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
> area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
> story.
>
> Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
> balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
> and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
> shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
> full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
> (Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
> about $3500.
>
> I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
> Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
> to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
> since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
> suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
> is that?
>
> Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
> Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
> laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
> back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
> 'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
> he's managed to do this with his bike.
>
> I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
> high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
> he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
> with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
> the story. ;-)
>
> --
> jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
I don't know the whole story, either, but wonder about someone going
out and spending so much on something he may not like or even be able
to do (you mentioned his balance problems). Seems like a much less
expensive cruiser type bikes from one of the major manufacturers would
have been a better starting point.
Smokey
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