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Main
Date: 26 Oct 2007 12:48:46
From: max
Subject: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
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Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,
Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
hissyfit.
funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.
<http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/NEWS/71
011018/1001/sports >
or:
<http://tinyurl.com/2ncwv5 >
.max
--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 11:56:42
From: SlowRider
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 31, 11:57 am, "Jim Boyer" <james.bo...@motorola.com > wrote:
> Check this link to see what effects a similar situation has had in Illinois:
>
> http://bikelib.org/boubcase/disincentivelist03.htm
Wow. I never would have figured Illinois for such a backward place.
(And to think, my biggest complaint is chip sealing...)
This past spring, I reported hazardous cycling conditions along a
recently chip-sealed road to our county (the shoulder/bike lane was
badly @$#%-ed up, forcing bikes into a lane with 50-mph traffic). I
received an e-mail later the same day: a gentleman had actually driven
out to the spot to inspect it. He told me about some other spots he
found that were even worse. The spots were more or less fixed (not
smooth, but passable) by the time I went back a few weeks later.
I guess I should thank you for reminding me how good I've got it...
- JR
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 22:28:55
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 31, 4:57 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:36:34 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Bob
>
> <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> > The county most likely settled because juries have a pronounced
> > tendency to favor grieving widows over faceless bureaucracies and the
> > county board's attorney advised them, "It's better to settle for $5000
> > now rather than risk a jury award of $500,000."
>
> the insurance company settled for $300k. the $5k was the
> county's deductible.
>
> wrongful death awards are based on the decedent's potential
> lifetime earnings. if the plaintiff's husband made $30k/yr,
> that's only the equivalent of 10 years. sounds like she settled
> for a quite low amount.
>
> the county should fix their damn roads so they are safe. it was
> their negligence that caused the tire-trapping accident.
We're in agreement on the County's negligence Dennis but I believe you
are mistaken on the law. First, one doesn't sue an insurance company.
One sues the insured, in this case a County so the insurance company
didn't settle. To quote the article, they just "advised the County to
settle" and then picked up the bulk of the tab. Second, a settlement
is not an award and doesn't have to follow any set guidelines. All it
has to do is satisfy both parties and the judge. Third, while you are
correct that wrongful death awards (again, I'm talking about awards
not settlements) are based on the decedent's potential lifetime
earnings it isn't a simple matter of looking at actuarial tables and
doing straightforward multiplication. If it were then the wrongful
death of an unemployable individual would be be worth exactly zero in
a lawsuit.
Regards,
Bob Hunt
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 22:10:21
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Nov 1, 10:53 pm, <j...@phred.org > wrote:
> In article <fgajjk$t0...@newshost.mot.com>, james.bo...@motorola.com
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "SlowRider" <jrogers80...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1193841956.465943.53870@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >> Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
> > >> roads for bicycles.
>
> > > I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
> > > simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
> > > vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
> > > bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.
>
> > Check this link to see what effects a similar situation has had in Illinois:
>
> >http://bikelib.org/boubcase/disincentivelist03.htm
>
> Any chance of Illinois simply accepting the Uniform Vehicle Code? It
> works pretty well in the United States.
>
What "Uniform Vehicle Code" are you referring to? Federal DOT
guidelines exist but they are just that, guidelines. Every State in
the Union has its own traffic and criminal codes. That aside, the Boub
case was an Illinois Supreme Court decision (IMO, a bad decision)
interpreting the intent of the legislators when they wrote the laws.
As such, not only can it only be reversed by yet more legislation- if
I recall correctly the federal courts have refused to hear an appeal-
but its viewpoint could easily be adopted in other States. Thankfully
that has not occurred. Yet.
I can't recall the exact attribution but a US Supreme Court Justice
once (allegedly) said to US Congressman when they were discussing the
separation of powers, "Congress writes words. Judges write *law*".
Comforting idea, huh?
Regards,
Bob Hunt
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 19:48:48
From:
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
In article <1193980221.383313.75270@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
hunrobe@aol.com says...
> What "Uniform Vehicle Code" are you referring to? Federal DOT
> guidelines exist but they are just that, guidelines. Every State in
> the Union has its own traffic and criminal codes. That aside, the Boub
> case was an Illinois Supreme Court decision (IMO, a bad decision)
> interpreting the intent of the legislators when they wrote the laws.
The UVC is a model code developed by the National Committee on Uniform
Traffic Laws and Ordinances. www.ncutlo.org
Most state legislatures don't actually write their own traffic codes,
they adopt the UVC in whole or in part, with some tinkering around the
edges. That provides greater uniformity among states and allows courts
in one state to look at how code provisions have been interpreted by
other courts, analogous to the Uniform Commercial Code used in business.
--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/ >
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html >
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 19:35:59
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Citizen Bob Hunt wrote:
> ...
> I can't recall the exact attribution but a US Supreme Court Justice
> once (allegedly) said to US Congressman when they were discussing the
> separation of powers, "Congress writes words. Judges write *law*".
> Comforting idea, huh?
Federal judges can be impeached and removed by Congress.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 17:02:21
From: DennisTheBald
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
> For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.
the Register used to spend a lot of energy warning people to stay out
of pacelines on RAGBRAI. The last couple years they have come away
from this position/given up a lost cause...
I'll never understand why people feel like they gotta bunch up like
that and try to go so fast when the roads are so crowded, there will
still be plenty of food left when you get there. I guess they're
thinking "Lance will see how fast I go and tell me that I should be a
racer"
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 09:57:47
From: thejen12
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
It sounds like the "dopes" are the ones who would ride shoulder to
shoulder with 100s of cyclists of unknown skill level. Why would I
want to do a ride where any one of 10,000 others could take me out?
The whole thing sounds like an unsafe situation to me, and if you
enter into it knowingly... you're on your own.
>From the description it sounds like the cracks were visible well in
advance and that if you didn't want to be the poor smoe getting pushed
into them at some point the safe thing to do was to get out of the
pack and wait for a break in the cycling traffic to ride them on your
own. Anything else sounds like a game of Russian Roulette. It sounds
like lots of people got caught up the herd mentality that day, instead
of taking responsibility for their own safety.
If Billy and Bobby and Sue and Janet rode their bikes off a cliff,
would you ride yours off a cliff, too?
Jenn
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 02:20:25
From: Gary Mishler
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"thejen12" <thejen12@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193936267.867155.13090@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> It sounds like the "dopes" are the ones who would ride shoulder to
> shoulder with 100s of cyclists of unknown skill level. Why would I
> want to do a ride where any one of 10,000 others could take me out?
> The whole thing sounds like an unsafe situation to me, and if you
> enter into it knowingly... you're on your own.
Valid points, and one of several reasons I have not done the last three
RAGBRAIs. Each year I have seen more and more unsafe riders and more and
more close calls. It got to the point I was not enjoying riding because I
spent my time worrying that someone was going to take me down.
>>From the description it sounds like the cracks were visible well in
> advance and that if you didn't want to be the poor smoe getting pushed
> into them at some point the safe thing to do was to get out of the
> pack and wait for a break in the cycling traffic to ride them on your
> own. Anything else sounds like a game of Russian Roulette.
Some truth here also BUT if this county (who now bans RAGBRAI) would have
made the modest effort and slight expense to temporarily fill the cracks on
the few miles of road that ran through their county like other counties did
and still do, it would have been a moot point and this accident would never
have happened.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 07:45:56
From: SlowRider
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net >
wrote:
> Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
> roads for bicycles.
I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.
> Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
> bicycle have ruined
> it for all of the rest of us..
I'm not defending or criticizing the cyclist or the lawyer, since I
don't know enough about the case and I haven't seen the road hazard in
question. The fact is, if it happens again, there's a chance the
county will be sued again. And again, the county may have to pay a
hefty settlement. In the long run, I still say prevention is cheaper
than neglect.
- JR
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 13:57:01
From: Jim Boyer
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"SlowRider" <jrogers80526@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193841956.465943.53870@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>> Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
>> roads for bicycles.
>
> I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
> simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
> vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
> bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.
>
Check this link to see what effects a similar situation has had in Illinois:
http://bikelib.org/boubcase/disincentivelist03.htm
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 20:53:46
From:
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
In article <fgajjk$t04$1@newshost.mot.com >, james.boyer@motorola.com
says...
>
> "SlowRider" <jrogers80526@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1193841956.465943.53870@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> > On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
> >> roads for bicycles.
> >
> > I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
> > simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
> > vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
> > bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.
> >
>
> Check this link to see what effects a similar situation has had in Illinois:
>
> http://bikelib.org/boubcase/disincentivelist03.htm
Any chance of Illinois simply accepting the Uniform Vehicle Code? It
works pretty well in the United States.
--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/ >
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html >
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Date: 29 Oct 2007 16:41:24
From: SlowRider
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 27, 8:51 am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> "Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don't sue the county because
> our roads are not made for bicycles" - County Board Chairman Dan Muhlbauer.
The lesson they obviously failed to learn is that they need to plan
and maintain roads for all lawful vehicles, not just automobiles.
RAGBRAI or no, they'll still be vulnerable to a lawsuit the next time
a cyclist suffers serious injury because he/she didn't see one of
these hazards in time. Even if money was their only concern, planning
ahead would still probably cost them less than a lawsuit.
- JR
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 13:28:06
From: Sir Thomas of Cannondale
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
roads for bicycles.
Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
bicycle have ruined
it for all of the rest of us..
And you wonder why this country is turning into a pile of shit?
===================================================================
"SlowRider" <jrogers80526@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193676084.858327.52680@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 27, 8:51 am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don't sue the county because
>> our roads are not made for bicycles" - County Board Chairman Dan
>> Muhlbauer.
>
> The lesson they obviously failed to learn is that they need to plan
> and maintain roads for all lawful vehicles, not just automobiles.
> RAGBRAI or no, they'll still be vulnerable to a lawsuit the next time
> a cyclist suffers serious injury because he/she didn't see one of
> these hazards in time. Even if money was their only concern, planning
> ahead would still probably cost them less than a lawsuit.
>
>
> - JR
>
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 21:04:32
From: Gary Mishler
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:Gp%Vi.4289$sZ.1846@trndny04...
> Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
> bicycle have ruined
> it for all of the rest of us..
Some dope who can't ride his bike? How do you know that? You have no
right whatsoever to say anything like that. Have you ridden the road in
question? Have you ever ridden RAGBRAI? Do you know anything first hand
about the accident?
My guess is No, No, No, and No.
I was in the pack on that road just in front of the accident. It was on a
fairly steep downhill just past the crest of the hill with hundreds of bikes
shoulder to shoulder. The rider's ability was not a factor in the least.
If someone was in the wrong place in the pack on that downhill it would have
been difficult if not impossible to avoid being crowded into dropping a
wheel in one of those cracks.
For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
killed. I was on my sixth RAGBRAI that day I say without hesitation that
those were the BY FAR the worst cracks in any road I had ridden at anytime
in my life. They varied from less than a tire width to several tire widths
wide and extended for I would guess a half mile or more down that hill.
Many people in the pack around me were commenting on how dangerous a
situation it was. I heard someone near me say out loud that someone was
likely to be seriously hurt today. Someone else then called out "Or
killed!" In all the group rides I have done I have never seen cracks more
severe than these for a longer distance than these. And, to top it off,
they were NOT marked in anyway, which is unusual on RAGBRAI.
I am NOT commenting on right or wrong of the lawsuit or the settlement or
anything like that. I am only saying it is wrong to make negative comments
about the rider. No Sir Thomas, this rider was not a dope. He was just the
most unlucky of the unlucky ones who had the misfortune of being in a place
in the pack where he could not avoid the worst cracks most have ever seen on
a public highway.
You can rightly comment on many things pertaining to this event, but you
have zero credibility to call someone "some dope who can't ride his bike".
To do so would open yourself up to others pigeon holing you as just some
dope ranting about something he is ignorant of in an internet newsgroup.
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 01:56:38
From: Sir Thomas of Cannondale
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
I have toured over a good part of north America,
east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.
Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
ditches, .. on the on.
Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of avoiding
the dangers.
You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.
What a crock of crap. It is pathetic lawyers and the nanny thinking babies
like yourself who have ruined My Country.
Who did the pioneers sue when the wagon wheel hit a hole in the unpaved
road?
One reason I very seldom will participate in group rides is because of the
nanny riders like yourself.
You and the lawyers make me sick.
=============================
"Gary Mishler" <gmishlerSPAMNOT@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:A56Wi.180034$Fc.103413@attbi_s21...
>
> "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:Gp%Vi.4289$sZ.1846@trndny04...
>
>> Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
>> bicycle have ruined
>> it for all of the rest of us..
>
> Some dope who can't ride his bike? How do you know that? You have no
> right whatsoever to say anything like that. Have you ridden the road in
> question? Have you ever ridden RAGBRAI? Do you know anything first hand
> about the accident?
>
> My guess is No, No, No, and No.
>
> I was in the pack on that road just in front of the accident. It was on a
> fairly steep downhill just past the crest of the hill with hundreds of
> bikes shoulder to shoulder. The rider's ability was not a factor in the
> least. If someone was in the wrong place in the pack on that downhill it
> would have been difficult if not impossible to avoid being crowded into
> dropping a wheel in one of those cracks.
>
> For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
> in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
> injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
> killed. I was on my sixth RAGBRAI that day I say without hesitation that
> those were the BY FAR the worst cracks in any road I had ridden at anytime
> in my life. They varied from less than a tire width to several tire
> widths wide and extended for I would guess a half mile or more down that
> hill. Many people in the pack around me were commenting on how dangerous a
> situation it was. I heard someone near me say out loud that someone was
> likely to be seriously hurt today. Someone else then called out "Or
> killed!" In all the group rides I have done I have never seen cracks more
> severe than these for a longer distance than these. And, to top it off,
> they were NOT marked in anyway, which is unusual on RAGBRAI.
>
> I am NOT commenting on right or wrong of the lawsuit or the settlement or
> anything like that. I am only saying it is wrong to make negative
> comments about the rider. No Sir Thomas, this rider was not a dope. He
> was just the most unlucky of the unlucky ones who had the misfortune of
> being in a place in the pack where he could not avoid the worst cracks
> most have ever seen on a public highway.
>
> You can rightly comment on many things pertaining to this event, but you
> have zero credibility to call someone "some dope who can't ride his bike".
> To do so would open yourself up to others pigeon holing you as just some
> dope ranting about something he is ignorant of in an internet newsgroup.
>
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| | | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 21:29:05
From: max
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08 >,
"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net > wrote:
> I have toured over a good part of north America,
> east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.
>
> Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
> bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
> ditches, .. on the on.
>
> Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of avoiding
> the dangers.
>
> You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
> the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.
When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat harder
to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the heroic American
Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.
You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.
For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.
.max
--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome
|
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 11:57:03
From: Sir Thomas of Cannondale
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Did I say I have never done RAGBRAI? Did I write that I have never been in
a pace line?
Wake up..
=================
"max" <betatron@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:betatron-D37FDE.21290531102007@032-478-847.area7.spcsdns.net...
> In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08>,
> "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I have toured over a good part of north America,
>> east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.
>>
>> Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
>> bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
>> ditches, .. on the on.
>>
>> Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of
>> avoiding
>> the dangers.
>>
>> You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
>> the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.
>
> When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat harder
> to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the heroic American
> Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.
>
> You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
> your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.
>
> For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.
>
> .max
>
> --
> The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 22:34:32
From: brink
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"max" <betatron@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:betatron-D37FDE.21290531102007@032-478-847.area7.spcsdns.net...
> In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08>,
> "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I have toured over a good part of north America,
>> east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.
>>
>> Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
>> bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
>> ditches, .. on the on.
>>
>> Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of
>> avoiding
>> the dangers.
>>
>> You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
>> the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.
>
> When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat harder
> to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the heroic American
> Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.
>
> You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
> your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.
>
> For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.
I've always thought it was the responsibility of the driver/rider to not
outdrive/outride his or her vision. This applies for cars and bicycles, of
course... and situations of fog/darkness/heavy traffic don't change that
responsibility, AFAIK.
Please understand that I'm not a hardliner who thinks that someone who rides
into a hazard he can't see is "getting what's coming to him," just that I
think that each person needs to be responsible for his own vehicle, even
when in packs of thousands of other vehicles, whether that's a ride or
rush-hour traffic.
brink
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 04:27:42
From: Gary Mishler
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"brink" <brinknospam@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5osvtfFofo9eU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> I've always thought it was the responsibility of the driver/rider to not
> outdrive/outride his or her vision. This applies for cars and bicycles,
> of course... and situations of fog/darkness/heavy traffic don't change
> that responsibility, AFAIK.
>
> Please understand that I'm not a hardliner who thinks that someone who
> rides into a hazard he can't see is "getting what's coming to him," just
> that I think that each person needs to be responsible for his own vehicle,
> even when in packs of thousands of other vehicles, whether that's a ride
> or rush-hour traffic.
>
> brink
I agree with you in principal. However, just to clarify-seeing these cracks
were not the problem (they were huge), avoiding them was the problem. These
cracks ran with the road for probably 1/4 to maybe a mile in length. They
were between lanes where the pavement sections were separating. Seeing the
cracks was not a problem, I was looking at them paralleling my biking path
off and on for several minutes. The problem is, as Max and I have tried to
describe, is that where and when this accident occurred with that many bikes
that close around you it makes it difficult sometimes to avoid being
'maneuvered' by the pack into the cracks. The cracks wander a bit, the pack
of bikes weaves a bit also and if you are squeezed in by too many bikes
surrounding you on all sides you sometimes cant keep it from happening.
The difference at this accident site was that the cracks were much, much
wider than any others, much deeper, and ran for a much longer length along
the route. In fact, if you look at the news photo from the top of the hill
of the med evac helicopter taking off you can actually make out the cracks
running between the lanes of the road. That picture was taken by a
photographer at least a half mile if not more from the helicopter. Knowing
that 10,000 plus bikes were coming with the size and depth of these cracks,
they should have been filled! In most cases where there are cracks like
this RAGBRAI officials, or county or whoever, will fill them with asphalt
and mark them with orange traffic paint. Sometimes they will even spray
paint warnings on the pavement ahead of the cracks for the riders. In this
case, there were no markings, no warnings, and no attempt to fill them. All
that coupled with the size of the crowd at that point was a recipe for the
disaster that happened.
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 03:33:34
From: Gary Mishler
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"max" <betatron@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:betatron-D37FDE.21290531102007@032-478-847.area7.spcsdns.net...
>
> When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat harder
> to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the heroic American
> Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.
Amen. He missed the entire point of my post which was simply that he should
not call the fatally injured rider a 'dope who can't ride his bike' when he
himself is totally in the dark as to the circumstances of the accident.
However, I suppose when you are humanity's greatest rider and one of the
greatest social minds, everyone else must seem like a dope by comparison.
> You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
> your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.
For the love of cycling, do not get him out on RAGBRAI! :) He said
himself that he rarely ever participates in group rides. RAGBRAI is for
people who enjoy thousands of other friendly cyclists out for nothing more
than a fun week of camaraderie and cycling together, I do not see him
fitting in with THAT ride.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 19:53:50
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
max wrote:
> In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08>,
> "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomcatm@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I have toured over a good part of north America,
>> east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.
>>
>> Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
>> bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
>> ditches, .. on the on.
>>
>> Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of
>> avoiding the dangers.
>>
>> You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw
>> ... fix the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.
>
> When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat
> harder to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the
> heroic American Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.
>
> You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
> your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.
>
> For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.
What does any of that have to do with suing the State if you crash?
Bill "personal responsibility...RIP" S.
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| | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 16:30:56
From: Diablo Scott
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Gary Mishler wrote:
> For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
> in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
> injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
> killed.
I read that the county assigned a traffic cop to the area to warn
cyclists of the hazard, and then that cop later left the scene for
whatever reason before everyone had gone by. That could certainly be
taken as gross negligence since the hazard was identified, deemed to be
dangerous enough to assign a cop, and then later abandoned with no warnings.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 00:36:14
From: Gary Mishler
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"Diablo Scott" <DiabloScottNOSPAM@terra.es > wrote in message
news:47291076$0$31670$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
.
>
> I read that the county assigned a traffic cop to the area to warn cyclists
> of the hazard, and then that cop later left the scene for whatever reason
> before everyone had gone by. That could certainly be taken as gross
> negligence since the hazard was identified, deemed to be dangerous enough
> to assign a cop, and then later abandoned with no warnings.
Hmm, there was no one there warning riders when I came through which was
only a few mins before the fatal accident. The accident was in the morning.
Either what you related above occurred before the accident, or I would guess
more likely, they stationed a State Trooper to warn other riders after the
accident and he later left when the majority of riders had been buy???
Don't know either way.
|
| |
Date: 28 Oct 2007 19:36:34
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 27, 7:21 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <tomc...@verizon.net >
wrote:
> .
>
> > Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,
>
> > Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
> > hissyfit.
>
> > funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
> > clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.
>
> ===========================================================================
>
> Boston Marathon, NY Marathon, Parades, walks for hunger, ............. this
> is totally NUTS!
>
> The county spent $5k. I bet the riders spent more than that on diet cola.
>
> And why did the county settle? Why didn't the county tell the widow, sorry
> lady but your old man
> fell off his bicycle and it is too bad.
>
> If I lived in that county, I would take out my old clunker and go for a
> ride. Once I spotted a sewer grate, crack in the road,
> anything .......... I would fall off the clunker. Oh my back and oh my
> bicycle.
>
> Give me the money. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> ============================
The county most likely settled because juries have a pronounced
tendency to favor grieving widows over faceless bureaucracies and the
county board's attorney advised them, "It's better to settle for $5000
now rather than risk a jury award of $500,000." True, judges can and
often do reduce jury awards but even when they do the reduction is
rarely more than about 50% and who ever heard of a wrongful death
award for a measly $10k?
Regards,
Bob Hunt
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 01:57:48
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:36:34 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Bob
<hunrobe@aol.com > wrote:
> The county most likely settled because juries have a pronounced
> tendency to favor grieving widows over faceless bureaucracies and the
> county board's attorney advised them, "It's better to settle for $5000
> now rather than risk a jury award of $500,000."
the insurance company settled for $300k. the $5k was the
county's deductible.
wrongful death awards are based on the decedent's potential
lifetime earnings. if the plaintiff's husband made $30k/yr,
that's only the equivalent of 10 years. sounds like she settled
for a quite low amount.
the county should fix their damn roads so they are safe. it was
their negligence that caused the tire-trapping accident.
|
| |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 09:51:59
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
"dot" max wrote:
> Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,
>
> Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
> hissyfit.
>
> funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
> clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.
“Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don’t sue the county because
our roads are not made for bicycles” - County Board Chairman Dan Muhlbauer.
I thought the roads not being made for bicycles was only in Illinois.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 02:56:30
From:
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Waivers don't usually protect negligence. If I'm an organized ride
and fall the organizers will likely be held immune. If however, the
ride SAG wagon;s driver is drunk and plows into me I'm likely to get
paid.
On Oct 27, 12:25 pm, dedendaddy4spamm...@webtv.net (It's Chris) wrote:
> Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
> should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
> probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
> ride through their county in the first place.
>
> So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.
>
> - -
> Compliments of:
> "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
>
> If you want to E-mail me use:
> ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
>
> My website:http://geocities.com/czcorner
|
| | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 06:46:33
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 28, 10:40 pm, Mark <mblackwell1...@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> They don't even slow down the lawsuits and most will not even bother
> to get them these days. Why? In the US a release or waiver is only
> valid for negligence. Trouble is that the law has a provision for
> "gross negligence" which can not be released even with a signed
> waiver. What's the difference? Its what ever the court happens to
> decide. I am no lawyer and don't play one on tv, but the releases
> really mean little in the real world
In addition, even if the waiver were found to apply, getting to that
point would likely cost more than $5,000 in legal fees.
Austin
|
| | |
Date: 28 Oct 2007 20:40:16
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 28, 9:47 pm, Bob <hunr...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Oct 27, 11:25 am, dedendaddy4spamm...@webtv.net (It's Chris) wrote:
>
> > Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
> > should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
> > probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
> > ride through their county in the first place.
>
> > So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.
>
> > - -
> > Compliments of:
> > "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
>
> > If you want to E-mail me use:
> > ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
>
> > My website:http://geocities.com/czcorner
>
> The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
> rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
> discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
> foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
> wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
> by grieving survivors.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
They don't even slow down the lawsuits and most will not even bother
to get them these days. Why? In the US a release or waiver is only
valid for negligence. Trouble is that the law has a provision for
"gross negligence" which can not be released even with a signed
waiver. What's the difference? Its what ever the court happens to
decide. I am no lawyer and don't play one on tv, but the releases
really mean little in the real world.
|
| | |
Date: 28 Oct 2007 19:47:14
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
On Oct 27, 11:25 am, dedendaddy4spamm...@webtv.net (It's Chris) wrote:
> Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
> should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
> probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
> ride through their county in the first place.
>
> So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.
>
> - -
> Compliments of:
> "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
>
> If you want to E-mail me use:
> ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
>
> My website:http://geocities.com/czcorner
The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
by grieving survivors.
Regards,
Bob Hunt
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Oct 2007 22:03:20
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Bob Hunt wrote:
> On Oct 27, 11:25 am, dedendaddy4spamm...@webtv.net (It's Chris) wrote:
>> Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
>> should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
>> probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
>> ride through their county in the first place.
>>
>> So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.
>>
>
> The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
> rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
> discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
> foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
> wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
> by grieving survivors.
The unfortunate result could be laws resulting in more Boub type
decisions:
<http://www.state.il.us/COURT/Opinions/SupremeCourt/1998/October/Opinions/HTML/84246.htm >.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 12:25:03
From: It's Chris
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
ride through their county in the first place.
So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.
- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner
|
| |
Date: 27 Oct 2007 12:21:41
From: Sir Thomas of Cannondale
Subject: Re: Iowa county bans RAGBRAI
|
.
> Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,
>
> Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
> hissyfit.
>
> funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
> clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.
===========================================================================
Boston Marathon, NY Marathon, Parades, walks for hunger, ............. this
is totally NUTS!
The county spent $5k. I bet the riders spent more than that on diet cola.
And why did the county settle? Why didn't the county tell the widow, sorry
lady but your old man
fell off his bicycle and it is too bad.
If I lived in that county, I would take out my old clunker and go for a
ride. Once I spotted a sewer grate, crack in the road,
anything .......... I would fall off the clunker. Oh my back and oh my
bicycle.
Give me the money. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
============================
|
|
