Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

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Date: 25 Dec 2006 04:30:07
From: what does THIS button do?
Subject: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
(<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow > [first link] on the
off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
we don't do it, it won't get done, period.

The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
improvement.

It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...

Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
discover these things called pedal cars

<http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf >
<http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html >
<http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10 >

They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.

The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!

so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
experiences/opinions etc.

Date: 04 Jan 2007 13:57:57
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Moving on (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

In article <1167879051.563049.112750@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > writes:

> I'd be interested in any pointers anyone might have to a torque
> _increasing_ derailleur lashup.

Bicycle wheel axles are /not/ indestructible.
But anyway, the Mountain Tamer[tm] Quad
or Triple might be right up your alley.

> I'm intending to build something that
> will have significantly more torque multiplication than your average
> MTB granny gear. If i understand the concept correctly, i'm thinking
> of being able to shift down to on the order of 4 gear inches or so.
>
> Such a thing seems pretty simple on paper, but ... i don't know
> anything, really.
>
> The Huffy vivisecton i can manage w/o too much trouble, but I'd be very
> grateful if anyone has pointers on the high-torque derailleur stuff.

Just for laffs I Googled on: pedal-powered machinery

Here's the first hit I got:
http://www.velomobiling.com/BicycleMachines

Scroll down to see a pic of something like what you're
interested in.

For plowing snow, I wonder if something designed like
a grader, with a highly articulable blade (rotation and
elevation) positioned mid-vehicle would be more viable?
Such a config would allow you to ballast the front end,
if need be.

The above site also has a link to some sort of
pedal-powered washing machine; I think I'll follow
up on that one.

I haven't looked at any of the other hits yet.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Date: 03 Jan 2007 20:48:06
From: what does THIS button do?
Subject: More questions (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

"moving on" was a bad subject...
what does THIS button do? wrote:
> what does THIS button do? wrote:
> [...]
> > The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> > in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. [...]
> > Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> > pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> > discover these things called pedal cars
> >
> > <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> > <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> > <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
> Thank you to everyone for their thoughtful replies. I've come to the
> conclusion that, as much fun as it might be to acquire an adult-sized
> pedal car, its just not ideal for the job.
>
> Mostly, pedal cars seem to be a bit wider than i'm wanting; i'm trying
> to stay at about an 18" wide track. Mostly, i want to stay gage
> compatible with the currently extant plowing tech in service. As i
> wrote originally: a pedal powered bulldozer (but not necessarily
> tracked!)
>
> This leads me into waters i fear to navigate: building something my
> self. Atomic Zombie freakbike stuff. Welding! terrors!
>
> I'm envisioning some sort of horror created from several gas-pipe
> Huffys. I want at to have at least 2 drive wheels, maybe 3 or 4. I'm
> thinking 20" tires or smaller. I would probably significantly ballast
> the contraption, likely with snow, improve drive wheel traction. In
> general, i'm not fond of a single front wheel solution. I would prefer
> a two-wheel front end which will give a better mount for the plow.
>
> I'd be interested in any pointers anyone might have to a torque
> _increasing_ derailleur lashup. I'm intending to build something that
> will have significantly more torque multiplication than your average
> MTB granny gear. If i understand the concept correctly, i'm thinking
> of being able to shift down to on the order of 4 gear inches or so.
>
> Such a thing seems pretty simple on paper, but ... i don't know
> anything, really.
>
> The Huffy vivisecton i can manage w/o too much trouble, but I'd be very
> grateful if anyone has pointers on the high-torque derailleur stuff.
>
> .max

Date: 03 Jan 2007 18:50:52
From: what does THIS button do?
Subject: Moving on (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

what does THIS button do? wrote:
[...]
> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. [...]
> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> discover these things called pedal cars
>
> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>

Thank you to everyone for their thoughtful replies. I've come to the
conclusion that, as much fun as it might be to acquire an adult-sized
pedal car, its just not ideal for the job.

Mostly, pedal cars seem to be a bit wider than i'm wanting; i'm trying
to stay at about an 18" wide track. Mostly, i want to stay gage
compatible with the currently extant plowing tech in service. As i
wrote originally: a pedal powered bulldozer (but not necessarily
tracked!)

This leads me into waters i fear to navigate: building something my
self. Atomic Zombie freakbike stuff. Welding! terrors!

I'm envisioning some sort of horror created from several gas-pipe
Huffys. I want at to have at least 2 drive wheels, maybe 3 or 4. I'm
thinking 20" tires or smaller. I would probably significantly ballast
the contraption, likely with snow, improve drive wheel traction. In
general, i'm not fond of a single front wheel solution. I would prefer
a two-wheel front end which will give a better mount for the plow.

I'd be interested in any pointers anyone might have to a torque
_increasing_ derailleur lashup. I'm intending to build something that
will have significantly more torque multiplication than your average
MTB granny gear. If i understand the concept correctly, i'm thinking
of being able to shift down to on the order of 4 gear inches or so.

Such a thing seems pretty simple on paper, but ... i don't know
anything, really.

The Huffy vivisecton i can manage w/o too much trouble, but I'd be very
grateful if anyone has pointers on the high-torque derailleur stuff.

.max

Date: 04 Jan 2007 09:32:55
From: Alan Braggins
Subject: Re: Moving on (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

In article <1167879051.563049.112750@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >, what does THIS button do? wrote:
>
>This leads me into waters i fear to navigate: building something my
>self. Atomic Zombie freakbike stuff. Welding! terrors!

http://www.atomiczombie.com/gallery/bradgraham/snowbus.htm ?

(Multiple drive wheels will make life much more complicated.)

Date: 08 Jan 2007 18:12:46
From: Alan Braggins
Subject: Re: Moving on (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

In article <slrneppie7.i4b.armb@chiark.greenend.org.uk >, Alan Braggins wrote:
>In article <1167879051.563049.112750@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, what does THIS button do? wrote:
>>
>>This leads me into waters i fear to navigate: building something my
>>self. Atomic Zombie freakbike stuff. Welding! terrors!
>
>http://www.atomiczombie.com/gallery/bradgraham/snowbus.htm ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/velomobiling/307287671/in/pool-citycycling/
"A human-powered snowplow, seen in Minneapolis. "

Date: 04 Jan 2007 05:17:52
From: Rob Morley
Subject: Re: Moving on (Was Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions)

In article <1167879051.563049.112750@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
betatron@gmail.com says...
> I'm envisioning some sort of horror created from several gas-pipe
> Huffys. I want at to have at least 2 drive wheels,

That's relatively easy if you have the extra wheel behind the regular
drive wheel, although it will affect steering.

> maybe 3 or 4.

That's getting complicated, given your apparent reluctance to do A-Team
engineering.

> I'm thinking 20" tires or smaller.

I don't think wheels under 20" will work well - you'd need a wide tyre
with low pressure to maintain a good contact area, and if the wheel
doesn't slip there would be problems with the tyre shifting on the rim
at high torque.

> I would probably significantly ballast
> the contraption, likely with snow, improve drive wheel traction.
> In
> general, i'm not fond of a single front wheel solution. I would prefer
> a two-wheel front end which will give a better mount for the plow.

I'd agree with both of those points.
>
> I'd be interested in any pointers anyone might have to a torque
> _increasing_ derailleur lashup. I'm intending to build something that
> will have significantly more torque multiplication than your average
> MTB granny gear. If i understand the concept correctly, i'm thinking
> of being able to shift down to on the order of 4 gear inches or so.
>
> Such a thing seems pretty simple on paper, but ... i don't know
> anything, really.
>
Say you have a 24 tooth chainring driving a 24 tooth sprocket on a 20
inch wheel - that's 20 gear inches. You could get it down to 5 inches
with two sets of reduction gears each with a 48 tooth and a 24 tooth
sprocket, so that's basically two extra bottom brackets and chainsets
that you need to attach somewhere between the pedals and the hub. You
could achieve the same reduction using a couple of 14-28 freewheels
instead so you'd only need to weld on brackets to hold a couple of hubs,
but the stress on the drive train components will be close to doubled
because of the smaller dimensions. I'm doubtful that a regular wheel is
going to handle the torque anyway - I still reckon it would be better to
use the final drive and rear wheel of a small motorcycle, maybe even the
gearbox too.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 21:45:44
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com >,
"what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > writes:

> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> discover these things called pedal cars
>
> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.

There are also these things:
http://www.rhoadescar.com/jumpshow.htm

and, of course, these infernal :-) contraptions:
http://www.beckerarena.com/snowshovel.aspx

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Date: 28 Dec 2006 21:36:02
From: runcyclexcski@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

I liked their FAQ section. "The kit will add approx 5 lb to the weight
of your bike - the weight of a six pack of beer". Apparently, their
target group is snowmobilers - sure, they would know how much a six
pack weighs.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 21:31:51
From: runcyclexcski@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

I remember seeing this thing. The track seems quite narrow, so this
could be "bike-skiable" only on well-packed snowmobile trails. It may
sink on a regular nordic trails .

I wonder how many of these they have managed to sell.

WRT to plowing of bike paths - skate-style skiing does require the
width of the whole bike path, unlike classic skiing (which the photos
show).

Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:38:06
From: trent
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

pegguru@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Alan Holmes wrote:
> > "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> > > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> > > a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> >
> > Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has, is
> > he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed at the
> > inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe, that is if
> > he knows where europe is?
> >
> > Alan
>
> He may be well aware. Of the cycling newsgroups, uk.rec.cycling is one
> of the better ones. He may simply be going where he expects to get a
> meaningful response.

I think Alan just need to RTFP. Or maybe it's an understanding problem
that reading alone can cure...

trent

Date: 27 Dec 2006 20:38:48
From:
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Alan Holmes wrote:
> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> > a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>
> Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has, is
> he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed at the
> inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe, that is if
> he knows where europe is?
>
> Alan

He may be well aware. Of the cycling newsgroups, uk.rec.cycling is one
of the better ones. He may simply be going where he expects to get a
meaningful response.

Date: 27 Dec 2006 18:35:57
From: runcyclexcski@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

i used to nordic ski on bike paths when it snowed in the East. I
remember getting really pissed when "my" bike paths got plowed.

How about a bike with tank tracks for grooming, not plowing, bike paths?

Date: 28 Dec 2006 00:56:35
From: fluffy bunny
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167273357.002707.287080@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > wrote:

> i used to nordic ski on bike paths when it snowed in the East. I
> remember getting really pissed when "my" bike paths got plowed.
>
> How about a bike with tank tracks for grooming, not plowing, bike paths?

we hear that a lot! What the snowplow guy does is to plow a single
strip and leave the rest; walkers tend to trope to the plowed section,
leaving a v nice area for skiers.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 10:46:38
From: Alan Braggins
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <betatron-C6B3FC.00563528122006@ftupet.com >, fluffy bunny wrote:
>In article <1167273357.002707.287080@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> i used to nordic ski on bike paths when it snowed in the East. I
>> remember getting really pissed when "my" bike paths got plowed.
>>
>> How about a bike with tank tracks for grooming, not plowing, bike paths?
>
>we hear that a lot! What the snowplow guy does is to plow a single
>strip and leave the rest; walkers tend to trope to the plowed section,
>leaving a v nice area for skiers.

There were some photos showing that quite nicely linked from the original
post. But on the subject of tracked bikes, I don't think anyone has
posted a link to this yet: http://www.ktrakcycle.com/
(Half-track fitting for a bike, optional ski front.)

I have no idea whether it really works as well as claimed - I suspect
studded tyres might be better on hard packed snow - but it might be worth
a look.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 01:28:02
From: Rob Morley
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <slrnep784e.vlq.armb@chiark.greenend.org.uk >
Alan Braggins <armb@chiark.greenend.org.uk > wrote:
>
> There were some photos showing that quite nicely linked from the original
> post. But on the subject of tracked bikes, I don't think anyone has
> posted a link to this yet: http://www.ktrakcycle.com/
>
You missed the third post in this thread then. :-)

Date: 27 Dec 2006 21:44:19
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167273357.002707.287080@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > wrote:

> it snowed in the East

East of what?

Date: 26 Dec 2006 17:46:59
From: Rob Morley
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com >
what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com > wrote:
> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
> improvement.
>
An easy-to-build improvement over the system you have ATM would be a
trike with two small wheels at the front, the plough in front of them
and a fat studded driven tyre at the back. You don't need to worry much
about weight or handling at speed, but it wants to be robust so it
withstands ramming into the heavier snow - just replacing the forks on a
clunker with a wheeled plough won't be up to the job because the frame
will likely bend/break and the steering would probably be unmanageable.

To get better performance in heavier conditions you're going to need
something more than a simple plough to shift the snow, because pedal
power via the drive wheel won't be enough, and the engineering becomes
rather more complicated - I'm thinking some sort of Archimedes-screw
type arrangement that's driven semi-independent of the propulsion
system. I wonder how well that would resist clogging - probably not
very well at all.

How about a tandem - front rider powers the 'blower', rear rider propels
the machine, steering supplemented with independent brakes on each front
wheel ...

I could go on ... :-)

Date: 26 Dec 2006 03:24:03
From: what does THIS button do?!
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Cydrome Leader wrote:
> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> > a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> > (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> > off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> > won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> > we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?

Any dope can to things the easy way.

..max

Date: 26 Dec 2006 09:12:19
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

what does THIS button do?! wrote:
> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
>>> keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on
>>> the off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental
>>> units won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move
>>> it. If we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>>
>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
>
> Any dope can to things the easy way.
>
The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
snowplow.

In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work is
one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 20:40:42
From: Cydrome Leader
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general Mike Kruger <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> what does THIS button do?! wrote:
>> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>>>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
>>>> keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>>>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on
>>>> the off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental
>>>> units won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move
>>>> it. If we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>>>
>>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
>>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
>>
>> Any dope can to things the easy way.
>>
> The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
> plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
> of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
> snowplow.

He got spanked by the feds?

> In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work is
> one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.

then his buddy is a crybaby who needs to wake up earlier and grab a snow
shovel and get started so he can get to work on time.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 15:32:34
From: fluffy bunny
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <en3uga$3iv$6@reader2.panix.com >,
Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com > wrote:

> In chi.general Mike Kruger <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> > what does THIS button do?! wrote:
> >> Cydrome Leader wrote:
> >>> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> >>>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
> >>>> keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> >>>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on
> >>>> the off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental
> >>>> units won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move
> >>>> it. If we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
> >>>
> >>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
> >>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
> >>
> >> Any dope can to things the easy way.
> >>
> > The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
> > plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
> > of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
> > snowplow.
>
> He got spanked by the feds?
>
> > In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work
> > is
> > one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.
>
> then his buddy is a crybaby who needs to wake up earlier and grab a snow
> shovel and get started so he can get to work on time.

actually, we spent about 18 man (ahem, er people)- hours to hand shovel
about half of it a few weeks ago.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 16:14:33
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <betatron-CBF66A.15323429122006@ftupet.com >,
fluffy bunny <betatron@earthlink.net > wrote:

> In article <en3uga$3iv$6@reader2.panix.com>,
> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
> > In chi.general Mike Kruger <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> > > what does THIS button do?! wrote:
> > >> Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > >>> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> > >>>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
> > >>>> keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> > >>>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on
> > >>>> the off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental
> > >>>> units won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move
> > >>>> it. If we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
> > >>>
> > >>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
> > >>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
> > >>
> > >> Any dope can to things the easy way.
> > >>
> > > The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
> > > plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think
> > > part
> > > of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
> > > snowplow.
> >
> > He got spanked by the feds?
> >
> > > In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work
> > > is
> > > one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite
> > > another.
> >
> > then his buddy is a crybaby who needs to wake up earlier and grab a snow
> > shovel and get started so he can get to work on time.
>
> actually, we spent about 18 man (ahem, er people)- hours to hand shovel
> about half of it a few weeks ago.

how's the trail now?

Date: 29 Dec 2006 21:54:09
From: Cydrome Leader
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general fluffy bunny <betatron@earthlink.net > wrote:
> In article <en3uga$3iv$6@reader2.panix.com>,
> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
>> In chi.general Mike Kruger <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> > what does THIS button do?! wrote:
>> >> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> >>> In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>> >>>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
>> >>>> keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>> >>>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on
>> >>>> the off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental
>> >>>> units won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move
>> >>>> it. If we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>> >>>
>> >>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
>> >>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
>> >>
>> >> Any dope can to things the easy way.
>> >>
>> > The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
>> > plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
>> > of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
>> > snowplow.
>>
>> He got spanked by the feds?
>>
>> > In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work
>> > is
>> > one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.
>>
>> then his buddy is a crybaby who needs to wake up earlier and grab a snow
>> shovel and get started so he can get to work on time.
>
> actually, we spent about 18 man (ahem, er people)- hours to hand shovel
> about half of it a few weeks ago.

So do it again. What's the real problem here? Everything is too hard when
you do it the complicated way?

Big discovery there.

Date: 27 Dec 2006 05:18:57
From: bob prohaska's usenet account
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In rec.bicycles.misc Mike Kruger <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
>
> In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work is
> one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.

Is this to say that power assist is prohibited? Or, simply to say that
a bicycle must be involved?

One could envision a variant of the latter case, in which a light snow blower
is attached to a bicycle, with an engine to do the blowing.

A string trimmer is a fairly powerful broom, I suspect one could suspend
a heavy duty model from a bicycle and make a dent in anything but ice.

In any event, a tadpole trike would be a better platform than a two wheeler.

bob prohaska

>

Date: 26 Dec 2006 09:40:40
From: Scott en Aztl�n
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > said in chi.general:

>>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
>>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
>>
>> Any dope can to things the easy way.
>>
>The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
>plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
>of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
>snowplow.
>
>In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work is
>one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.

Nothing for it, then. Go down to Home Depot, hire yourself a bunch of
day laborers, and hand them each a snow shovel.
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
- Jonathan Swift

Date: 26 Dec 2006 11:49:57
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <kin2p21ovtrjlcifm0dfarrpu41svkkq3v@4ax.com >,
Scott en Aztl?n <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com > wrote:

> "Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> said in chi.general:
>
> >>> Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
> >>> clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?
> >>
> >> Any dope can to things the easy way.
> >>
> >The OP's coworker has already gotten in trouble with the government for
> >plowing this. Governments are always worried about liability. I think part
> >of the reason the government relented is due to the novelty of a bicycle
> >snowplow.
> >
> >In addition, the OP's coworker is going to work. Riding a bicycle to work is
> >one thing, even with a plow. Pushing a snowblower to work is quite another.
>
> Nothing for it, then. Go down to Home Depot, hire yourself a bunch of
> day laborers, and hand them each a snow shovel.

HD's around here don't have guys waiting for work

Date: 26 Dec 2006 10:26:18
From: Cydrome Leader
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com > wrote:
> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.

Quit bitching and push a snowblower around. What's the problem here-
clearing snow or doing things the most complicated way possible?

Date: 25 Dec 2006 22:41:31
From: what does THIS button do?
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Earl Bollinger wrote:
> "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:A6Wdndg6idpPyA3YnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@comcast.com...
> > "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> >> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> >> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> >> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> >> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> >> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> >> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
> >>
> >> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> >> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
> >> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
> >> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
> >> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
> >> improvement.
> >>
> >> It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
> >> more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
> >> the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
> >>
> >> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> >> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> >> discover these things called pedal cars
> >>
> >> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> >> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> >> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
> >>
> >> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
> >> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
> >> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
> >> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
> >>
> >> The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
> >> because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
> >> of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
> >> lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
> >>
> >> so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
> >> websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
> >> experiences/opinions etc.
> >>
> >
> > I think one of the trikes (tricycles) would work well for this purpose.
> > You could use an upright trike like you see at a lot of retirement
> > communities, or a recumbent trike.
> > The regular upright trikes cost less than the recumbent trikes do.
> > Many of these trikes can be had with a three speed. i don't know about 5
> > speed or 7 speed models.
> > But one could probably put in a Shimano 7 or 8 speed hub in lieu of the
> > three speed hub.
> >
>
> I forgot to mention that the recumbent trikes are reversed with the two
> front wheels steerable and the single rear wheel for power.
> Usually they run from 21 speeds on up to 60 speeds. Thus one could use it to
> push a snow plow more effectively.

Mechanical advantage looms large in my thinking. While a lot of the
other suggestions sound pretty good at first pass, many don't have a
real mechanical torque multiplication advantage. They'll work on an
ideal or light snowfall, or over a "short" distance but will tend to be
difficult or fatigueing to use in heavy or frozen/wet slop or over a
distance of 1~3 miles.

Operating as a schneepflug (*) over distances in this mileage regime,
i'd be more inclined to use something that could grind, slowly but
inexorably, into drifts. I've found that the shock-loading associated
with riding a high speed profile into the snow can really trash my
quadraceps. A 60-speed sounds like it might have a bit of torque
multiplication. :-)

I will look into tadpoles.

.max
*lansgsamer schneepflug.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 01:28:02
From: Rob Morley
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167115291.224764.43610@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com >
what does THIS button do? <betatron@gmail.com > wrote:
<snip >

> A 60-speed sounds like it might have a bit of torque
> multiplication. :-)
>
There's no point having massive torque if you can't get it on the
ground. So stick a big weight above the drive wheel, then the chain or
the wheel is going to break as soon as you take on some serious snow.
Uprate the wheel and transmission and the frame will break. You might
as well just weld the back end of a motorcycle to the front end of a
tractor and be done with it.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 16:51:02
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
> improvement.
>
> It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
> more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
> the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
>
> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> discover these things called pedal cars
>
> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
>
> The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
> because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
> of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
> lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
>
> so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
> websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
> experiences/opinions etc.
>

I think one of the trikes (tricycles) would work well for this purpose.
You could use an upright trike like you see at a lot of retirement
communities, or a recumbent trike.
The regular upright trikes cost less than the recumbent trikes do.
Many of these trikes can be had with a three speed. i don't know about 5
speed or 7 speed models.
But one could probably put in a Shimano 7 or 8 speed hub in lieu of the
three speed hub.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 20:39:28
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:A6Wdndg6idpPyA3YnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
>> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
>> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
>> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
>> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>>
>> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
>> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
>> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
>> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
>> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
>> improvement.
>>
>> It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
>> more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
>> the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
>>
>> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
>> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
>> discover these things called pedal cars
>>
>> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
>> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
>> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>>
>> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
>> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
>> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
>> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
>>
>> The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
>> because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
>> of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
>> lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
>>
>> so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
>> websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
>> experiences/opinions etc.
>>
>
> I think one of the trikes (tricycles) would work well for this purpose.
> You could use an upright trike like you see at a lot of retirement
> communities, or a recumbent trike.
> The regular upright trikes cost less than the recumbent trikes do.
> Many of these trikes can be had with a three speed. i don't know about 5
> speed or 7 speed models.
> But one could probably put in a Shimano 7 or 8 speed hub in lieu of the
> three speed hub.
>

I forgot to mention that the recumbent trikes are reversed with the two
front wheels steerable and the single rear wheel for power.
Usually they run from 21 speeds on up to 60 speeds. Thus one could use it to
push a snow plow more effectively.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 14:39:09
From: Scott en Aztl�n
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > said in chi.general:

>The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
>in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
>has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
>yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
>plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
>improvement.

Tow the plow with a snowmobile.
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
- Jonathan Swift

Date: 28 Dec 2006 10:32:43
From: Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general Scott en Aztl?n <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com > wrote:
: "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > said in chi.general:

: >The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
: >in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
: >has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
: >yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
: >plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
: >improvement.

: Tow the plow with a snowmobile.

I think max should post this in alt.amish.plowing for a more meaningful
reply... that said, I suspect that rigging a self propelled snowblower
would take too long to do the trail and that dragging a weighted 2x8
behind a bike isn't going to cut it either... not sure what other options
you have since there isn't a lot of torque and the risk of going over the
handle bars if you get a running start would be high...

How long is this trail? Maybe just walking it with a gas powered snowblower
would suffice? Does your park district plow it? (In Chicago the park district
will plow the loops in the parks a day or so after snow)

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Date: 28 Dec 2006 07:42:42
From: Scott en Aztl�n
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Chicago Paddling-Fishing <jwn@ripco.com > said in chi.general:

>I think max should post this in alt.amish.plowing for a more meaningful
>reply...

Wow, you mean the Amish have found a way to post to USENET without
computers, Internet access, or electricity? I'm definitely impressed!
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
- Jonathan Swift

Date: 31 Dec 2006 15:51:43
From: Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general Scott en Aztl?n <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com > wrote:
: Chicago Paddling-Fishing <jwn@ripco.com > said in chi.general:

: >I think max should post this in alt.amish.plowing for a more meaningful
: >reply...

: Wow, you mean the Amish have found a way to post to USENET without
: computers, Internet access, or electricity? I'm definitely impressed!
: --
: "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
: - Jonathan Swift

Um... well, it was sort of a joke, but they did have snow plows for horses
and I think Max could plow it a lot faster on a horse than by hand...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1919-TIN-HORSE-DRAWN-SNOW-PLOW-AD-OWENSBORO-KY_W0QQitemZ330009352671QQcmdZViewItem

Perhaps Max can build something like this and have Barb sit on it to provide
a bit of weight as Max towed her around the trail...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Date: 28 Dec 2006 16:26:24
From: Daryl Hunt
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"Scott en Aztl�n" <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:m6p7p2h0acqfvfe1sm8trurtle2t6p4k6i@4ax.com...
> Chicago Paddling-Fishing <jwn@ripco.com> said in chi.general:
>
>>I think max should post this in alt.amish.plowing for a more meaningful
>>reply...
>
> Wow, you mean the Amish have found a way to post to USENET without
> computers, Internet access, or electricity? I'm definitely impressed!

Before Electricity, we used to watch TV by candlelight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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It has removed 7348 spam emails to date.
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Date: 25 Dec 2006 20:23:48
From: Poul Erik Lindaa
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

On 25 Dec 2006 04:30:07 -0800, "what does THIS button do?"
<betatron@gmail.com > wrote:

>Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
>a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>(<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
>off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
>won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
>we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
>The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
>in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
>has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
>yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
>plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
>improvement.
>
>It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
>more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
>the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
>
>Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
>pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
>discover these things called pedal cars
>
><http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
><http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
><http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
>They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
>US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
>reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
>imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
>
>The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
>because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
>of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
>lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
>
>so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
>websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
>experiences/opinions etc.

Look at this.
http://www.mooncar.dk/

--
Slet transportmidlet f�r dk
__o
Poul Erik Lindaa === _'\ <_ E-mail: lindaa@mail.tele.cykeldk
==== (�)/ (�)
------------------------------------------------------------
http://skivsamling.nu/show.pl?id=26228

Date: 25 Dec 2006 13:48:49
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <c990p25o1u0hmje83ipfn4rjobert7d850@4ax.com >,
Poul Erik Lindaa <lindaa@mail.tele.cykeldk > wrote:

> http://www.mooncar.dk/

if it had a grader attachment it looks like that would work.

http://www.lcwhitford.com/JD570_grader_1.jpg

Date: 25 Dec 2006 10:57:57
From: Nexus7
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Can you push/tow a snowblower?

Date: 25 Dec 2006 13:07:51
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167073077.015942.314080@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
"Nexus7" <ac25kV@yahoo.com > wrote:

> Can you push/tow a snowblower?

I think he wants to pretend he's a frontiersman.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 08:39:25
From: David Martin
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

kenji wrote:

> SCROOGE!

Nah, Scrooge was a kind and generous character who gave to the needy
and was concerned with the welfare of the less off.

At least in the latter part of his life.

..d

Date: 25 Dec 2006 12:23:28
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <1167064765.318866.326880@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com >,
"David tin" <tin-family@blueyonder.co.uk > wrote:

> kenji wrote:
>
> > SCROOGE!
>
> Nah, Scrooge was a kind and generous character who gave to the needy
> and was concerned with the welfare of the less off.
>
> At least in the latter part of his life.
>
> ..d

what's Alan then?

Date: 25 Dec 2006 15:59:43
From: Alan Holmes
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 10:55:04
From: Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In chi.general Alan Holmes <alan.holmes@nowhere.com > wrote:

: "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com > wrote in message
: news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
: > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
: > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
: > a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.

: Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has, is
: he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed at the
: inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe, that is if
: he knows where europe is?

Hmmmm... uk... do those initials stand for something?

Being on a "small island" I suppose you don't use cars...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Date: 25 Dec 2006 16:58:01
From: fluffy bunny
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <PzSjh.36164$n36.29606@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net >,
"Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@nowhere.com > wrote:

> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> > a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>
> Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has, is
> he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed at the
> inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe, that is if
> he knows where europe is?
>
> Alan

Alan,

This idiot did, in fact, notice that the only places in the english
speaking world which carry the Dino Car are in England and Ireland.

This idiot lives in Chicago and is unable to readily visit a dealer in
England or ireland. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding you might
have. Me=Chicago. English speaking dealers = UK, bicycles= duh.

I would have included a fahrrad.de (or ftm, einradder) group, but meiner
deutsch is a little rusty, it having been a few years since i moved away
from Munich.

Thank you for your substantive reply, alan.

.max

Date: 25 Dec 2006 18:30:22
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

in message <betatron-148F1C.10543225122006@news.west.earthlink.net >, fluffy
bunny ('betatron@earthlink.net') wrote:

> In article <PzSjh.36164$n36.29606@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>,
> "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>> > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>> > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
>> > keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>>
>> Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has,
>> is he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed
>> at the inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe,
>> that is if he knows where europe is?
>
> This idiot did, in fact, notice that the only places in the english
> speaking world which carry the Dino Car are in England and Ireland.

Fear not. Alan is a well-known, errrm, character on certain newsgroups. An
insult from him may be seen either as a rite of passage or a compliment,
depending on your mood.

I have nothing helpful to add regarding pedal cars. The relatively wide
track and low ground clearance may make pedalling them in snow hard work -
you would have to clear a lot more snow to make a useable path for one of
those things.

There are a couple of British made utility four-wheelers, but both of them
are expensive and both suffer from the wide-track problem.
http://www.a-v-d.com/taskmaster.htm
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php?get_ol_id=7&get_gl_id=37&get_sgl_id=78#a37

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 22:14:10
From: Alan Braggins
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>I have nothing helpful to add regarding pedal cars. The relatively wide
>track and low ground clearance may make pedalling them in snow hard work -
>you would have to clear a lot more snow to make a useable path for one of
>those things.

But if you do manage it, you've made a wider path for other users.

I'm trying to imaging using the wheel of a Wovel
http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/6490/gallery/
as a direct drive front wheel on a delta trike, but failing.

Back-to-back tandem trike with the front drive chain disconnected
from the wheels and driving a snow-blower?

Date: 25 Dec 2006 23:36:32
From: mark
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Alan Braggins wrote:

> I'm trying to imaging using the wheel of a Wovel
> http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/6490/gallery/
> as a direct drive front wheel on a delta trike, but failing.

The Wovel by itself looks like a far more workable solution than any of
the pedal cars that have been described in this thread.

k

Date: 25 Dec 2006 13:10:15
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <uuh564-ral.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk >,
Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:

> in message <betatron-148F1C.10543225122006@news.west.earthlink.net>, fluffy
> bunny ('betatron@earthlink.net') wrote:
>
> > In article <PzSjh.36164$n36.29606@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>,
> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> >> > coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help
> >> > keep a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> >>
> >> Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has,
> >> is he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed
> >> at the inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe,
> >> that is if he knows where europe is?
> >
> > This idiot did, in fact, notice that the only places in the english
> > speaking world which carry the Dino Car are in England and Ireland.
>
> Fear not. Alan is a well-known, errrm, character on certain newsgroups. An
> insult from him may be seen either as a rite of passage or a compliment,
> depending on your mood.
>
> I have nothing helpful to add regarding pedal cars. The relatively wide
> track and low ground clearance may make pedalling them in snow hard work -
> you would have to clear a lot more snow to make a useable path for one of
> those things.
>
> There are a couple of British made utility four-wheelers, but both of them
> are expensive and both suffer from the wide-track problem.
> http://www.a-v-d.com/taskmaster.htm
> http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php?get_ol_id=7&get_gl_id=37&get_sgl_id=78#a37

who knew that our .max would create such intercourse with fellow
pedalers from across the big swamp?

Date: 25 Dec 2006 10:23:35
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 16:12:28
From: vernon
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

"Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@nowhere.com > wrote in message
news:PzSjh.36164$n36.29606@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
>> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
>> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
>
> Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has,
> is he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed
> at the inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe,
> that is if he knows where europe is?
>
There are several alternative options open to you Alan:

Email him/her directly at betatron@gmail.com with your request

Respond but remove uk.rec.cycling from the list of groups and let the flak
and cross posting continue elsewhere

Ponder on the problem that he faces and make a sensible suggestion on how
the OP might improve the device that (s)he's described.

Merry Xmas ;-)

-=V=-

Date: 25 Dec 2006 10:40:58
From: kenji
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

In article <i4OdnZygA9qmZRLYnZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@bt.com >,
"vernon" <public@privacy.net > wrote:

> "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:PzSjh.36164$n36.29606@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "what does THIS button do?" <betatron@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1167049807.639057.267510@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> >> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> >> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> >
> > Has this idiot not noticed the letter 'uk' in the header, and if he has,
> > is he not aware that these letters indicate that this newsgroup is aimed
> > at the inhabitants of a small island just off the west coast of europe,
> > that is if he knows where europe is?
> >
> There are several alternative options open to you Alan:
>
> Email him/her directly at betatron@gmail.com with your request
>
> Respond but remove uk.rec.cycling from the list of groups and let the flak
> and cross posting continue elsewhere
>
> Ponder on the problem that he faces and make a sensible suggestion on how
> the OP might improve the device that (s)he's described.
>
> Merry Xmas ;-)
>
> -=V=-

FWIW, I know the OP and he's a bit of a wacko. He really does want to
plow 15 miles of a bicycle trail's snow using something he and others
would pedal.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 09:28:45
From: sticks
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

what does THIS button do? wrote:
> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
> improvement.
>
> It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
> more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
> the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
>
> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> discover these things called pedal cars
>
> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
>
> The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
> because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
> of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
> lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
>
> so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
> websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
> experiences/opinions etc.
>

Take a look at these, .max.

http://www.ktrakcycle.com/

I don't recall...is the trail paved yet?

sticks

Date: 25 Dec 2006 19:15:32
From: nash
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

That is cool for $300 Sticks.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 06:23:47
From:
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

what does THIS button do? wrote:
> Depending on where you are reading this, you may know that one of my
> coworkers developed bicycle towed snow plow which he uses to help keep
> a MUP open in our car-clogged suburb of Chicago.
> (<http://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+snow+plow> [first link] on the
> off chance this is news to anyone). No, the local governmental units
> won't remove the snow and yes we've tried to get them to move it. If
> we don't do it, it won't get done, period.
>
> The main drawback of the bikeplow system is that the bike needs to be
> in front of the plow, towing. Not pushing. In the snow. And the bike
> has to be above a certain critical speed for balancing yadda yadda
> yadda, the plow has trouble with heavy, wet, or icy underlayers. The
> plow is 10^6 better than nothing, but there is a bit of room for
> improvement.
>
> It would be better, for instance, if the motivator were on something
> more stable than two-wheels, and it might be good if the plow pushed
> the snow out of the way, before the wheels ...
>
> Tautological thoughts like this lead me to imagine a sort of
> pedal-powered bulldozer or tractor thing, which lead me eventually to
> discover these things called pedal cars
>
> <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>
>
> They seem to be popular(?) in europe, but basically non-existant in the
> US. The Dino seems to be the bee's knees (very nice), with a 5-speed +
> reverse gear, 200+ kg payload .... very burly, and quite what i'd
> imagine i'd like to have to push a little V-plow along the trail.
>
> The only real problems i see are (a) i'd have to import most of them
> because of the limited availability in the states (Kettler seems sort
> of available, i.e. special order at Dick's Sports) and (b) they cost a
> lot of money -- 900 Pounds Sterling for the top of the line Dino car!
>
> so i'm seeking information and pointers. I'd like to know of club
> websites etc. for pedal-car entheusiasts, hear of people's
> experiences/opinions etc.

I've thought of this concept several times. Not just for snow clearing
but lawn mowing, etc. Not being a mechanically inclined sort (I feel a
real sense of accomplishment changing a lightbulb), thought is as far
as I got.

The links you presented appear to be toys. I wonder if they'd be
rugged enough to handle the punishment of snow clearing. You might
need something a bit stronger, a bit more durable.

As an alternative, check out some of the trike manufacturers. A trike
might well be stable enough. And there are probably more manufacturers.

Date: 25 Dec 2006 17:03:57
From: fluffy bunny
Subject: Re: Pedal car (Dino, Berg,Kettler) questions.

Ipegguru@gmail.com wrote:

>
> what does THIS button do? wrote:
> > <http://www.autoculture.co.uk/Dino%202007.pdf>
> > <http://www.kettler.net/articles/20050216194000001126/index.html>
> > <http://www.bergtoys.com/skelters.php?categorie=10>

> I've thought of this concept several times. Not just for snow clearing
> but lawn mowing, etc. Not being a mechanically inclined sort (I feel a
> real sense of accomplishment changing a lightbulb), thought is as far
> as I got.
>
> The links you presented appear to be toys. I wonder if they'd be
> rugged enough to handle the punishment of snow clearing. You might
> need something a bit stronger, a bit more durable.

Some of the Dinos are pretty hefty -- about 100 pounds empty weight.
What i like about the 4-wheelers is that their design would _greatly_
simplify managing a plow mount -- interference problems seem to arise
from pushing in front of a trike mount...

.max