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Main
Date: 02 Nov 2006 16:59:38
From: Bruce W.1
Subject: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Maybe we could get the Department of Homeland Security to fund bicycle
trails for use in mass evacuations.
Read this article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-01-carless_x.htm
If people need to walk out of Washington, DC then they should be able to
ride a bicycle too.
Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to
facilitate evacuations.
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 13:15:30
From: Ziactrice
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Earl Bollinger wrote:
> "Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:zcz2h.1564$0r.1096@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> >> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
> >> evacuations.
> >
> > Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed
> > having to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I
> > never considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the
> > shoulder of I-90.
> >
> > --
> > Warm Regards,
> >
> > Claire Petersky
> > http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
> > See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
> >
>
> Well in times of disaster and emergency, some not so nice people may take
> your bicycles from you by force.
> It is probably better to not use the freeway system in the first place.
> Riding by a huge line or freeway parking lot of desparate people on a
> bicycle may not be a good idea at all.
<above written by Earl Bollinger >
If I had to, I would ride with my shotgun across my back. For varmints,
of course. I've heard that driver's are even more polite when one is
visibly armed than even when one is wearing a helmet. The fights that
broke out were riots over shortages of gasoline. Water remained
available the entire time. The stranded people I saw during the evac
were stranded by over-heated cars. The stranded I saw 4-5 days later
were left so by the gasoline completely _running out_. I was very glad
it was my iron policy to keep a minimum half-a-tank all hurricane
season.
I was in the evacuation from Rita. I left early enough to miss the
worst of it, but actually, one only had to get at most twenty miles -
with some hard shelter being prepared there - as there were made
available. Not comfortable, persay, but enough to save one's life. I
would rather get out with almost nothing than be left to make do in
pockets of anarchy surrounded by toxic and rising water.
As for the old or infirm - it strikes me that there are many options
for trucking along a passenger, even one who cannot provide motive
force. Now, doing that while taking along a tent and enough water could
be tricky, but not impossible with good planning. If I were in a
situation where that might be necessary, an upgrade to a motorcycle
with sidecar would be planned, but with a bicycle - probably a small
folding model - buckled on a trailer, as well.
Not that a motocycle would normally be allowed on a trail - and it
would take a good trail to manage one with a sidecar, given most of the
bike trails here must be bollarded during normal times to prevent the
dirt bikers from encroaching.
All in all, however, it beats some of the REAL ideas I've heard from
city government about how to manage the next Big Evac.
Zia
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 12:56:48
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Furious George wrote:
> Werehatrack wrote:
> > On 2 Nov 2006 17:37:39 -0800, "Furious George" <bugme_69@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Werehatrack wrote:
> > >> [1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
> > >> miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
> > >
> > >But how much of that distance was needed to escape the storm, and how
> > >much because the motels are already full of refugees? How many more
> > >rooms could there be, if parking lots weren't so big?
> >
> > Precisely zero. The motels are not limited by land availability in
> > any of the locales that were involved, but rather by the ordinary
> > demand for rooms on a daily basis. If the number of motel rooms
> > tripled, it would not have been adequate, and every such motel would
> > be bankrupt in a year. Rooms cost money to maintain.
>
> Excellent points. Except for locales where motels are limited by land
> availability, my argument has been smashed.
Where land is at a premium, hotels generally start to go up, literally.
Plenty of downtown hotels in metro areas go to 20 floors or more, so
even there your argument is weak.
Austin
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 11:53:31
From: John Kane
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Pat Lamb wrote:
> Claire Petersky wrote:
> > "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> >> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
> >> evacuations.
> >
> > Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed having
> > to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I never
> > considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the shoulder
> > of I-90.
> >
> From what I've heard of Houston's evacuation from Rita, you could have
> done the same there. Or walked down the white line in the middle of the
> interstate, passing parked cars and trucks until you got tired.
>
> Pat
I was going to say the same about New Orleans as well. Most of the
pictures I saw were of parked cars on the highway going nowhere,and
come to think of it, the last Florida evacuation looked that way too.
It looked a bit like riding in rush hour :)
In southern climes, I would think a major problem would be potable
water more than distance per se.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 20:10:42
From: Furious George
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
> > Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
> > evacuations.
>
> Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed having
> to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I never
> considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the shoulder
> of I-90.
This is easy to reconcile. Your city should include I-90 as an
important part of its trail system. (It is necessary for evacuating
east over the Cascade mountains.)
>
> --
> Warm Regards,
>
> Claire Petersky
> http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
> See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 04:03:43
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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"Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com > wrote in message
news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
> evacuations.
Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed having
to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I never
considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the shoulder
of I-90.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 06:12:48
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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"Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > wrote in message
news:zcz2h.1564$0r.1096@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
>> evacuations.
>
> Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed
> having to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I
> never considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the
> shoulder of I-90.
>
> --
> Warm Regards,
>
> Claire Petersky
> http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
> See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
>
Well in times of disaster and emergency, some not so nice people may take
your bicycles from you by force.
It is probably better to not use the freeway system in the first place.
Riding by a huge line or freeway parking lot of desparate people on a
bicycle may not be a good idea at all.
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 08:41:05
From: Pat Lamb
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
>> evacuations.
>
> Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed having
> to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I never
> considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the shoulder
> of I-90.
>
From what I've heard of Houston's evacuation from Rita, you could have
done the same there. Or walked down the white line in the middle of the
interstate, passing parked cars and trucks until you got tired.
Pat
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 18:42:19
From: brink
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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"Pat Lamb" <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4r12o1Fpf4fgU2@individual.net...
> Claire Petersky wrote:
>> "Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to
>>> facilitate
>>> evacuations.
>>
>> Would a trail system really be necessary? After Katrina, we discussed
>> having
>> to evacuate our home by heading east, over the Cascade mountains. I never
>> considered that we'd be on a trail. I figured we'd just ride on the
>> shoulder
>> of I-90.
>>
> From what I've heard of Houston's evacuation from Rita, you could have
> done the same there. Or walked down the white line in the middle of the
> interstate, passing parked cars and trucks until you got tired.
Wow. You have to admit... that would be *some* bike ride, lane-splitting
and shoulder-passing a bunch of cars stuck in a gigantic parking lot of a
freeway...
brink
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 21:46:20
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 18:42:19 -0800, "brink" <brink@invalid.invalid >
wrote:
>"Pat Lamb" <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:4r12o1Fpf4fgU2@individual.net...
>> From what I've heard of Houston's evacuation from Rita, you could have
>> done the same there. Or walked down the white line in the middle of the
>> interstate, passing parked cars and trucks until you got tired.
>
>Wow. You have to admit... that would be *some* bike ride, lane-splitting
>and shoulder-passing a bunch of cars stuck in a gigantic parking lot of a
>freeway...
Yelling into every car window you pass, "Get on the shoulder!"
:)
Email address works as is.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 20:01:11
From: Furious George
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Werehatrack wrote:
> On 2 Nov 2006 17:37:39 -0800, "Furious George" <bugme_69@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Werehatrack wrote:
> >> [1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
> >> miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
> >
> >But how much of that distance was needed to escape the storm, and how
> >much because the motels are already full of refugees? How many more
> >rooms could there be, if parking lots weren't so big?
>
> Precisely zero. The motels are not limited by land availability in
> any of the locales that were involved, but rather by the ordinary
> demand for rooms on a daily basis. If the number of motel rooms
> tripled, it would not have been adequate, and every such motel would
> be bankrupt in a year. Rooms cost money to maintain.
Excellent points. Except for locales where motels are limited by land
availability, my argument has been smashed.
>
>
> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 18:44:56
From: Chris Neary
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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I read several accounts that many bikes were used in N.Y. on 9/11 to get
around.
Chris Neary
diabloridr@tcsn.net
"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 03:46:00
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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"Chris Neary" <diabloridr@tcsn.net > wrote in message
news:j7blk294mm2kpesetrbpnfqmgrea4nq4kh@4ax.com...
>I read several accounts that many bikes were used in N.Y. on 9/11 to get
>around.
The ones I read seemed to be by people who regularly cycle. The problem with
using bicycles for evacuation is that you'd have to get a bunch of people
who don't cycle to cycle relatively long distances under stress.
--
Mike Kruger
Blog: http://mikekr.blogspot.com/
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 20:40:06
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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"Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com > wrote in message
news:_tp2h.758$vP1.62@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Maybe we could get the Department of Homeland Security to fund bicycle
> trails for use in mass evacuations.
>
> Read this article:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-01-carless_x.htm
>
> If people need to walk out of Washington, DC then they should be able to
> ride a bicycle too.
>
> Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to facilitate
> evacuations.
heck no, then I lose my escape route.
It would be like the freeways all clogged up with parked vehicles and tough
to get around.
Also you need to start riding a week or so in advance of the actual
evacuation order as all the people go crazy.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 17:37:39
From: Furious George
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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Werehatrack wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:59:38 GMT, "Bruce W.1"
> <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Maybe we could get the Department of Homeland Security to fund bicycle
> >trails for use in mass evacuations.
> >
> >Read this article:
> >http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-01-carless_x.htm
> >
> >If people need to walk out of Washington, DC then they should be able to
> >ride a bicycle too.
> >
> >Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to
> >facilitate evacuations.
>
> And physical fitness at a level that makes a century an option at the
> drop of a hat[1], in street clothes[2] and possibly in foul weather,
> should also be mandated for anyone living or employed in a potential
> evac zone.
>
> If all you have to do in case of evac is get 20 miles away, a bike
> might be a useful option for up to 40% of the population. Getting out
> of the path of a hurricane generally will require a range of 100 miles
> at least, since it's vital to get beyond either the potential landfall
> zone along the coast (risky) or the area in which hurricane-force
> winds and/or flooding is likely inland.
>
> OTOH, bikes as a means of nondisposable transport to points of
> transfer to motorized evac (of the riders and the bikes) might have
> made it possible for a lot of New Orleans people to escape...but it
> would not have helped the large number of infirm, elderly and disabled
> who perished because there was never a plan to do anything to assist
> them.
>
> As the US urban population continues to grow, the infeasibility of the
> automobile as a long-term transit solution becomes increasingly
> apparent; whether the population will allow anything else to be
> substituted, and what that might be, is a pair of questions that thus
> far appear to have no promising answers.
>
>
>
> [1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
> miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
But how much of that distance was needed to escape the storm, and how
much because the motels are already full of refugees? How many more
rooms could there be, if parking lots weren't so big?
>
> [2] Consider the spectacle of the typical Wal-t shopping crowd in
> spandex, even if you could convince them all to buy it to begin with.
> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 02:57:48
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
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On 2 Nov 2006 17:37:39 -0800, "Furious George" <bugme_69@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>
>Werehatrack wrote:
>> [1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
>> miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
>
>But how much of that distance was needed to escape the storm, and how
>much because the motels are already full of refugees? How many more
>rooms could there be, if parking lots weren't so big?
Precisely zero. The motels are not limited by land availability in
any of the locales that were involved, but rather by the ordinary
demand for rooms on a daily basis. If the number of motel rooms
tripled, it would not have been adequate, and every such motel would
be bankrupt in a year. Rooms cost money to maintain.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 03:43:13
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
|
"Werehatrack" <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote in message
news:1sblk2p31l13c85d9inujjvduq9ft9bbvl@4ax.com...
> On 2 Nov 2006 17:37:39 -0800, "Furious George" <bugme_69@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Werehatrack wrote:
>>> [1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
>>> miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
>>
>>But how much of that distance was needed to escape the storm, and how
>>much because the motels are already full of refugees? How many more
>>rooms could there be, if parking lots weren't so big?
>
> Precisely zero. The motels are not limited by land availability in
> any of the locales that were involved, but rather by the ordinary
> demand for rooms on a daily basis. If the number of motel rooms
> tripled, it would not have been adequate, and every such motel would
> be bankrupt in a year. Rooms cost money to maintain.
>
In addition, you need all that distance because you can't be sure where the
hurricane will hit. Even the day before Katrina, there was substantial
uncertainty about the exact path it would take, and that's pretty typical.
I'm imagining a bunch of people of *t bikes, wearing jeans and carrying
big backpacks, biking until they get chafed raw -- and still not being out
of harm's way.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 17:32:52
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Promote bike trails for evacuations!
|
On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:59:38 GMT, "Bruce W.1"
<sorry@noDirectEmail.com > wrote:
>Maybe we could get the Department of Homeland Security to fund bicycle
>trails for use in mass evacuations.
>
>Read this article:
>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-01-carless_x.htm
>
>If people need to walk out of Washington, DC then they should be able to
>ride a bicycle too.
>
>Every major U.S. city should have an elaborate trail system to
>facilitate evacuations.
And physical fitness at a level that makes a century an option at the
drop of a hat[1], in street clothes[2] and possibly in foul weather,
should also be mandated for anyone living or employed in a potential
evac zone.
If all you have to do in case of evac is get 20 miles away, a bike
might be a useful option for up to 40% of the population. Getting out
of the path of a hurricane generally will require a range of 100 miles
at least, since it's vital to get beyond either the potential landfall
zone along the coast (risky) or the area in which hurricane-force
winds and/or flooding is likely inland.
OTOH, bikes as a means of nondisposable transport to points of
transfer to motorized evac (of the riders and the bikes) might have
made it possible for a lot of New Orleans people to escape...but it
would not have helped the large number of infirm, elderly and disabled
who perished because there was never a plan to do anything to assist
them.
As the US urban population continues to grow, the infeasibility of the
automobile as a long-term transit solution becomes increasingly
apparent; whether the population will allow anything else to be
substituted, and what that might be, is a pair of questions that thus
far appear to have no promising answers.
[1] Or farther; the Houston evac distance was typically over 150
miles; the New Orleans evac was typically 75 to 150.
[2] Consider the spectacle of the typical Wal-t shopping crowd in
spandex, even if you could convince them all to buy it to begin with.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
|
