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Date: 01 Mar 2007 13:09:55
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Quantifying cars per road?
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Hi All,
I have been trying to think of some way to quantitativly describe how
congested roads are in a particular area in a way that would show how
pleasant or unpleasant it might be to ride there.
Here in Norway there are only 4.5 million people in a country the size
of California. This would lead on to believe there were limitless
possibilities for excellent lonely bike rides. While there are of
course many great places to ride, the road network seems to
concentrate cars in a way that makes it seem much more crowded here
that one would think. Visitors from abroad have commented to me abouth
this too while we are driving around. Due to geographic, political,
and historical reasons, there are lots of "can't get there from here"
situations where there is only one road available to get someplace.
There are relatively few alternate routes. This means that the
frequency of cars can be quite high at times. If you just divided the
number of cars by the number of kilometers of roads, this would make
it seem less congested because many of these roads are quite long.
So any suggestions on ways of thinking about/describing the utility of
roads and their frequency of use?
Joseph
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Date: 04 Mar 2007 10:56:10
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1, 11:14 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Thu, 01 2007 22:32:39 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:
> > On 1 2007 13:09:55 -0800, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [---]
>
> >>So any suggestions on ways of thinking about/describing the utility of
> >>roads and their frequency of use?
>
> > Maps produced for cyclists in Germany often classify roads by the number
> > of motor vehicles per hour which use them. The set I have uses the
> > following classification:
>
> > - over 10,000 vehicles per hour: unsuitable for cyclists
>
> > - between 3,000 and 10,000 vph: of limited suitability for cyclists
>
> > - between 1,000 and 3,000 vph: suitable for cyclists
>
> > - up to 1,000 vph: very suitable for cyclists
>
> I don't know much about the roads in Germany, but this wouldn't translate
> to the US where roads vary a lot in style and width. Very high volume
> roads can still be suitable for cyclists if there's enough lane width,
> shoulder, and/or a bike lane. This is more common in Western states.
> Eastern states are more likely to have narrow roads with lots of traffic.
>
> For example, compare northern VA (Washington, DC suburbs) with Orange
> County, CA. These areas are practically identical in type commercial and
> residential development, and in demographics. However OC is eminently
> bikeable while NoVA is a disaster. The difference is that all new
> development since the 60s in CA has 14' or wider standard lanes, usually
> with shoulders or bike lanes in addition; while VA still builds arterial
> roads with 12' outer lanes and no shoulders.
>
> Matt O.
I drove my son to a birthday party today a few towns away and to kill
time til it was over I drove around and measured some of the roads
around here. The main roads are between 2.7 and 2.9 meters (8' 10" and
9' 6") and the side roads anywhere from the same down to less than 2
meters (6' 7"). All these roads have no shoulder at all outside the
line. Irritatingly, some of the main roads have lanes much wider, and
have 1m wide shoulders, but these roads are all prohibited for bikes!
These narrow roads can be quite pleasant, but I think the behavior of
motorists is more pronounced, and as I said before a big truck passing
at 50mph is no fun.
Joseph
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Date: 04 Mar 2007 01:11:41
From: Mike Causer
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On Thu, 01 2007 22:32:39 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:
> Maps produced for cyclists in Germany often classify roads by the
> number of motor vehicles per hour which use them. The set I have uses
> the following classification:
>
> - over 10,000 vehicles per hour: unsuitable for cyclists
>
> - between 3,000 and 10,000 vph: of limited suitability for cyclists
>
> - between 1,000 and 3,000 vph: suitable for cyclists
>
> - up to 1,000 vph: very suitable for cyclists
Are you sure they mean "per hour", or is it perhaps "per day"? I have
traffic survey maps for my local area, and on a single-carriageway road
anything over 4,000 vehicles per day is unpleasant for cycling, 7,000
per day (eg the road on which I live) is very unpleasant. If the "per
hour" is the peak at commuter time then I would still argue that 3,000
per hour is not suitable for cyclists [1]. Width matters too, and
sight-lines, and whether it's urban or rural (I assume we're talking
rural here).
[1] Assuming two directions, that's almost one every two seconds in the
direction in which you're cycling, which is the recommended gap for
motor vehicles, so this is a continuous stream of motor vehicles at
their minimum spacing. If the traffic is largely uni-directional (as
with many commuter routes), it's a continuous stream at *half* their
minimum spacing!
Mike
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Date: 04 Mar 2007 19:11:15
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 4 2007 01:11:41 GMT, Mike Causer
<mikec@firstnamelastname.com.invalid > wrote:
[---]
>Are you sure they mean "per hour", or is it perhaps "per day"? I have
>traffic survey maps for my local area, and on a single-carriageway road
>anything over 4,000 vehicles per day is unpleasant for cycling, 7,000
>per day (eg the road on which I live) is very unpleasant. If the "per
>hour" is the peak at commuter time then I would still argue that 3,000
>per hour is not suitable for cyclists [1]. Width matters too, and
>sight-lines, and whether it's urban or rural (I assume we're talking
>rural here).
I've had another look at the maps - and it doesn't specify! It just
says "für Radfahrer ungeeignet/über 10 000 Kraftfahrzeuge" etc.
You are almost certainly right. I am a train control engineer, and
when we measure subway system capacity, it is in terms of passengers
per hour, so without thinking about it further, I just assumed in the
absence of a unit figure that it must have been "per hour".
As you point out in your analysis, if the densities were per hour, it
just wouldn't bear thinking about, even at 3000 vph.
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Date: 02 Mar 2007 00:49:50
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 2, 4:46 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 1, 6:25 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On 1, 10:51 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >>I've critiqued the "Bicycle Compatiblity Index" here:
>
> > >>http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/critique_BCI.pdf
>
> ...
>
> > What is the expected benefit of rating roads on the basis of aggregate
> > bicyclist perceptions as a function of motor vehicle speed, volume, and
> > road width? To keep bicyclists off worse rated roads?
>
> I think some people hope that low BLOS ratings will justify spending
> money to improve such a road. And it may work, in a few cases.
That is my plan. Play to the ego of those in charge. If I can
demonstrate "scientifically" that it is more pleasant to use a bike in
Latvia or someplace the locals would feel insulted to be compared
poorly with then I might get some results.
> Of course, the first "improvement" contemplated is often a white bike
> lane stripe. That's a problem.
The biggest problem here is that laws mandating that BL's have a
certain (very involved) design means that often in those places where
a BL would actually be nice, it is too expensive. A 200m long stretch
on my commute has a proposed BL, but the cost is proposed to be $6
million USD. For the 10 of us that would use it, this is ridiculous.
In this case, a white line would suffice, or 3' of paved shoulder, but
it is not an option. So we get nothing.
> > Bicyclists should
> > be everywhere they are allowed, spreading like a beneficial virus!
>
> Agreed.
>
> > What about operational measures such as collision rate, cross traffic
> > frequency, hilliness, surface condition, directness, etc.? Placing
> > emphasis soley on the stress of overtaking traffic misses the larger
> > issues and perpetuates the destructive Fear From the Rear paradigm.
>
> Also agreed.
Me too. The contortions they create in the name of bicycle saftey
(underpasses, fences, gravel) are so much mor of a problem than rear
collisions. Frustrating.
Joseph
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Date: 02 Mar 2007 00:40:40
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1, 11:59 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> > I don't know much about the roads in Germany, but this wouldn't translate
> > to the US where roads vary a lot in style and width. Very high volume
> > roads can still be suitable for cyclists if there's enough lane width,
> > shoulder, and/or a bike lane.
>
> What would be the outcome if a bicyclist used an "unsuitable" road?
>
>
>
> > For example, compare northern VA (Washington, DC suburbs) with Orange
> > County, CA. These areas are practically identical in type commercial and
> > residential development, and in demographics. However OC is eminently
> > bikeable while NoVA is a disaster. The difference is that all new
> > development since the 60s in CA has 14' or wider standard lanes, usually
> > with shoulders or bike lanes in addition; while VA still builds arterial
> > roads with 12' outer lanes and no shoulders.
>
> Last I checked, my 2' bicycle fit well on a 12' lane.
>
> Wayne
Many of the roads around here are less than 12' yet I still find
riding on them pleasant. But when a dump-truck full of gravel spilling
out passes me at 50mph, followed by a bus, then 30 cars, the
pleasantness starts to wane.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 19:46:37
From:
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1, 6:25 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On 1, 10:51 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>I've critiqued the "Bicycle Compatiblity Index" here:
>
> >>http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/critique_BCI.pdf
>
...
>
> What is the expected benefit of rating roads on the basis of aggregate
> bicyclist perceptions as a function of motor vehicle speed, volume, and
> road width? To keep bicyclists off worse rated roads?
I think some people hope that low BLOS ratings will justify spending
money to improve such a road. And it may work, in a few cases.
Of course, the first "improvement" contemplated is often a white bike
lane stripe. That's a problem.
> Bicyclists should
> be everywhere they are allowed, spreading like a beneficial virus!
Agreed.
> What about operational measures such as collision rate, cross traffic
> frequency, hilliness, surface condition, directness, etc.? Placing
> emphasis soley on the stress of overtaking traffic misses the larger
> issues and perpetuates the destructive Fear From the Rear paradigm.
Also agreed.
- Frank Krygowski
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 14:20:23
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1, 10:51 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> I've critiqued the "Bicycle Compatiblity Index" here:
>
> http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/critique_BCI.pdf
>
> The various tools that have been devised to determine bicycling
> suitablity largely rely on how "comfortable" it is to use a road. This
> "comfort" is largely a function of perception. As we know, bicyclists'
> perceptions are poor.
>
> Wayne
Interesting. How could someone devise such a silly way of testing as
sticking a camera to the side of a road and then bother wasting all
the effort for the whole rest of the project? That's one of the
dumbest things I've heard lately.
If you ignore the BL aspects, do you think the system is somewhat
valid?
Joseph
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 18:25:13
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On 1, 10:51 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I've critiqued the "Bicycle Compatiblity Index" here:
>>
>>http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/critique_BCI.pdf
>>
>>The various tools that have been devised to determine bicycling
>>suitablity largely rely on how "comfortable" it is to use a road. This
>>"comfort" is largely a function of perception. As we know, bicyclists'
>>perceptions are poor.
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
> Interesting. How could someone devise such a silly way of testing as
> sticking a camera to the side of a road and then bother wasting all
> the effort for the whole rest of the project? That's one of the
> dumbest things I've heard lately.
>
> If you ignore the BL aspects, do you think the system is somewhat
> valid?
>
I agree that most bicyclists do not enjoy the stress of riding on a
narrow busy road. But stress is a matter of perception, not operational
function. And what is stressful for one bicyclist may not phase another.
What is the expected benefit of rating roads on the basis of aggregate
bicyclist perceptions as a function of motor vehicle speed, volume, and
road width? To keep bicyclists off worse rated roads? Bicyclists should
be everywhere they are allowed, spreading like a beneficial virus!
People self select to what they are comfortable with.
What about operational measures such as collision rate, cross traffic
frequency, hilliness, surface condition, directness, etc.? Placing
emphasis soley on the stress of overtaking traffic misses the larger
issues and perpetuates the destructive Fear From the Rear paradigm. We
should strive to raise bicyclist's tolerance for traffic, not
artificially lower it by telling them how bad a road is.
In your case of few routes, what would be the point of a suitability
rating anyway? If there is no choice there is no choice. In the case of
an urban area with many choices, locals should know what roads they
prefer to use. In that case, having a suitability map which rates some
roads poorly does the disservice of formally documenting roads that
bicyclists "shouldn't use." What's the good of that?
Wayne
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 13:40:43
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1, 10:16 pm, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On 2007-03-01, joseph.santanie...@gmail.com <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > I have been trying to think of some way to quantitativly describe how
> > congested roads are in a particular area in a way that would show how
> > pleasant or unpleasant it might be to ride there.
>
> Sounds like you want the Bicycle Level of Service:
>
> <http://www.ibike.org/engineering/los.htm>
>
That is very interesting. It is certainly helpful for determining the
relative unpleasantness of a given road. But I wonder if there is some
way to describe lack of alternate routes for an entire area. Some
crazy unit like cars/capita/km^2/min or something.
On the CalTrans website it says they maintain 1,640,101 miles of
roads. Obvioulsy lots of these are streets in urban areas the likes of
which do not exist here, but still this is hugely greater than the
25,000 miles of roads (including dirt roads!) here according to a
recent newspaper article. And with people living in narrow corridors
in valleys, this means lots of cars on the few roads where people
live. 13% as many people, 1% as many roads (probably less given the
inclusion of dirt and private roads).
I'm not saying they should pave the place, but the lack of alternate
routes puts the squeeze on bikes big time.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 22:32:39
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 1 2007 13:09:55 -0800, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
[---]
>So any suggestions on ways of thinking about/describing the utility of
>roads and their frequency of use?
Maps produced for cyclists in Germany often classify roads by the
number of motor vehicles per hour which use them. The set I have uses
the following classification:
- over 10,000 vehicles per hour: unsuitable for cyclists
- between 3,000 and 10,000 vph: of limited suitability for cyclists
- between 1,000 and 3,000 vph: suitable for cyclists
- up to 1,000 vph: very suitable for cyclists
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 17:14:26
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On Thu, 01 2007 22:32:39 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:
> On 1 2007 13:09:55 -0800, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [---]
>
>>So any suggestions on ways of thinking about/describing the utility of
>>roads and their frequency of use?
>
> Maps produced for cyclists in Germany often classify roads by the number
> of motor vehicles per hour which use them. The set I have uses the
> following classification:
>
> - over 10,000 vehicles per hour: unsuitable for cyclists
>
> - between 3,000 and 10,000 vph: of limited suitability for cyclists
>
> - between 1,000 and 3,000 vph: suitable for cyclists
>
> - up to 1,000 vph: very suitable for cyclists
I don't know much about the roads in Germany, but this wouldn't translate
to the US where roads vary a lot in style and width. Very high volume
roads can still be suitable for cyclists if there's enough lane width,
shoulder, and/or a bike lane. This is more common in Western states.
Eastern states are more likely to have narrow roads with lots of traffic.
For example, compare northern VA (Washington, DC suburbs) with Orange
County, CA. These areas are practically identical in type commercial and
residential development, and in demographics. However OC is eminently
bikeable while NoVA is a disaster. The difference is that all new
development since the 60s in CA has 14' or wider standard lanes, usually
with shoulders or bike lanes in addition; while VA still builds arterial
roads with 12' outer lanes and no shoulders.
Matt O.
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 17:59:25
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> I don't know much about the roads in Germany, but this wouldn't translate
> to the US where roads vary a lot in style and width. Very high volume
> roads can still be suitable for cyclists if there's enough lane width,
> shoulder, and/or a bike lane.
What would be the outcome if a bicyclist used an "unsuitable" road?
>
> For example, compare northern VA (Washington, DC suburbs) with Orange
> County, CA. These areas are practically identical in type commercial and
> residential development, and in demographics. However OC is eminently
> bikeable while NoVA is a disaster. The difference is that all new
> development since the 60s in CA has 14' or wider standard lanes, usually
> with shoulders or bike lanes in addition; while VA still builds arterial
> roads with 12' outer lanes and no shoulders.
>
Last I checked, my 2' bicycle fit well on a 12' lane.
Wayne
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 21:16:57
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 2007-03-01, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have been trying to think of some way to quantitativly describe how
> congested roads are in a particular area in a way that would show how
> pleasant or unpleasant it might be to ride there.
Sounds like you want the Bicycle Level of Service:
<http://www.ibike.org/engineering/los.htm >
--
__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 21:32:10
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
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On 2007-03-01, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 2007-03-01, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have been trying to think of some way to quantitativly describe how
>> congested roads are in a particular area in a way that would show how
>> pleasant or unpleasant it might be to ride there.
>
> Sounds like you want the Bicycle Level of Service:
>
><http://www.ibike.org/engineering/los.htm>
Argh, now I find my /good/ bookk: a BLOS calculator:
<http://bikelib.org/roads/blos/blosform.htm >
--
__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)
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Date: 01 Mar 2007 16:51:40
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Quantifying cars per road?
|
I've critiqued the "Bicycle Compatiblity Index" here:
http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/critique_BCI.pdf
The various tools that have been devised to determine bicycling
suitablity largely rely on how "comfortable" it is to use a road. This
"comfort" is largely a function of perception. As we know, bicyclists'
perceptions are poor.
Wayne
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