SUV mows down children

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Date: 03 May 2007 10:42:43
From: Bill H.
Subject: SUV mows down children

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL

"Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.

Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
designed to test reaction time and judgment.

Date: 05 May 2007 08:44:36
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 4, 2:31 pm, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net > wrote:
> "AustinMN" <tacooper...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178306361.659974.147100@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On May 4, 11:42 am, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net> wrote:
> >> As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.
>
> >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> >> All for it, but what would it cost the gov't?
>
> > Nothing. It would cost the driver taking the test $70. It would be a
> > "driver retest fee" and would be "revenue neutral" except for that
> > part which gets quietly siphoned into other funds.
>
> > Austin
>
> The reason I posted the Q was because I just paid $75 to renew a license
> and all I did was stand in line. If I can get tested for the same price I
> think that would be a bonus for everyone. I doubt it takes that much to
> process a renewed license anyway.

Who said you'd be tested for the same price? You would still pay $75
to stand in line (of course, they might raise that to $90), but you
would then pay $70 to be tested.

Believe me, the government would NOT pay for the testing; the driver
would.

Austin

Date: 04 May 2007 12:19:21
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 4, 11:42 am, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net > wrote:
> As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> All for it, but what would it cost the gov't?

Nothing. It would cost the driver taking the test $70. It would be a
"driver retest fee" and would be "revenue neutral" except for that
part which gets quietly siphoned into other funds.

Austin

Date: 04 May 2007 19:31:44
From: nash
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"AustinMN" <tacooper260@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178306361.659974.147100@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On May 4, 11:42 am, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net> wrote:
>> As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.
>>
>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> All for it, but what would it cost the gov't?
>
> Nothing. It would cost the driver taking the test $70. It would be a
> "driver retest fee" and would be "revenue neutral" except for that
> part which gets quietly siphoned into other funds.
>
> Austin

The reason I posted the Q was because I just paid $75 to renew a license
and all I did was stand in line. If I can get tested for the same price I
think that would be a bonus for everyone. I doubt it takes that much to
process a renewed license anyway.

Date: 04 May 2007 12:09:32
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 1:10 pm, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Bill H. wrote:
>
> ::http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
> ::
> :: "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> :: old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> :: hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
> ::
> :: Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> :: seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> :: confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> :: 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required
> :: to renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road
> :: course designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> I say make everyone be subjected to rigorous testing. I've seen lots of
> uncoordinated people try to pull stunts in cars that they have no business
> doing.

The problem may well be the stunt, not the uncoordination. All the
testing in the world won't weed out a driver who simply chooses to be
a jerk after the test.

Austin

Date: 04 May 2007 12:05:48
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 2:32 pm, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 11:02 am, gds <gary_j...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip >
> > Question #2--What is your area of expertise to come to a judgement,
> > from the facts stated in the article, as to the cause of the accident?
>
> Well, I have some common sense, for one. Older drivers are worse
> drivers, by and large. Their hearing, eyesight, and mental acuity
> deteriorates every year...all part of the aging process. Studies have
> shown that the older one gets, the slower their reflexes...as well as
> their ability to judge things like how fast other cars are
> approaching.

I see. So how does your "common sense" square with the fact that
teenagers, which have superior eyesight, hearing, reflexes, and
possibly mental acuity, have more accidents than older drivers, even
though the older drivers outnumber them?

If you want to make the road safer, remove *bad* drivers. That
includes some older drivers, but it also includes all other age
categories, some of which are more strongly represented in the "bad
driver" population.

Austin

Date: 04 May 2007 19:36:26
From: nash
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

I see. So how does your "common sense" square with the fact that
teenagers, which have superior eyesight, hearing, reflexes, and
possibly mental acuity, have more accidents than older drivers, even
though the older drivers outnumber them?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

years of experience for the older drivers plus
youth do not have self preservation as a motus operandi or for other folks
come to think of it.

Date: 04 May 2007 05:02:09
From: OzCableguy
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Date: 03 May 2007 22:41:45
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Bill H. wrote:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
>
> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.

This conclusion is, I think, based on prejudice rather than a logical
conclusion from the story. I don't say that the prejudice is incorrect,
just that it is not supported by the story and it is easy to blame a
70-year old Asian man for fucking up behind the wheel.
>
> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> confused.

I am not yet one of "them", but until the US begins to take seriously
testing everyone for driving skills, only testing older drivers is again
prejudice.

I first got my driver's license in 1967 in California. I have lived in
3 other states since then, and in 40 years I have never, ever, had
another driving test. This is absurd. Just because I had good habits
in the 1960's in California does not mean that I retain them here, and
now. Every driver should be required to pass a driving test every 5
years. Not only old farts; all of us. Many drivers under 70 have
terrible driving habits; they are inattentive, they speed, they ignore
other drivers.

I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.

--

David L. Johnson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Date: 04 May 2007 16:42:36
From: nash
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

All for it, but what would it cost the gov't?

Date: 04 May 2007 10:04:43
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

nash <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote:
> As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> All for it, but what would it cost the gov't?

Why not have people taking the test foot the bill? Honestly, if it's
important to someone to have a license, they should bear the cost of
getting that license.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
College football is a game which would be much more interesting if the faculty
played instead of the students, and even more interesting if the trustees
played. There would be a great increase in broken arms, legs, and necks,
and simultaneously an appreciable diminution in the loss to humanity.
-- H. L. Mencken

Date: 04 May 2007 02:54:34
From: Bill
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

David L. Johnson wrote:
> Bill H. wrote:
>> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
>>
>>
>> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
>> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
>> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> This conclusion is, I think, based on prejudice rather than a logical
> conclusion from the story. I don't say that the prejudice is incorrect,
> just that it is not supported by the story and it is easy to blame a
> 70-year old Asian man for fucking up behind the wheel.
>>
>> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
>> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
>> confused.
>
> I am not yet one of "them", but until the US begins to take seriously
> testing everyone for driving skills, only testing older drivers is again
> prejudice.

Some people at 70 are too old for much of anything yet some at 80 are
still good to go, whether by car or by bike. An 80 year old non-smoking,
non-alcoholic will almost 99% of the time beat an alcoholic, drugged, or
smoker 60 year old.
>
> I first got my driver's license in 1967 in California. I have lived in
> 3 other states since then, and in 40 years I have never, ever, had
> another driving test. This is absurd. Just because I had good habits
> in the 1960's in California does not mean that I retain them here, and
> now. Every driver should be required to pass a driving test every 5
> years. Not only old farts; all of us. Many drivers under 70 have
> terrible driving habits; they are inattentive, they speed, they ignore
> other drivers.

Welcome to California.
>
> I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
>> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
>> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
>> designed to test reaction time and judgment.

I would welcome that if it were applied to all drivers on about a 5 year
basis. It would also make sense to make the test an English only one
since the road signs cannot possibly be in all the languages of all the
immigrants here. I have seen a few road signs in both English and
Spanish that caused me a double take while driving a car. That, in
itself is dangerous since I was driving at 65 MPH and doing a "WTF?".
>>
> As long as we are all required to take such tests, I am all for it.
>
And as long as we all are required to speak, read, and write English.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 May 2007 19:51:05
From: John Thompson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On 2007-05-03, Bill H. <billhen@gmail.com > wrote:

> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
>
> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> designed to test reaction time and judgment.

Although reaction times do tend to slow with age, young and relatively
inexperienced drivers (particularly young male drivers) still command
the lion's share of accidents attributed to driver error:

With the aging of the US population, there is increasing attention to
the risk of crashes among the elderly. In fact, drivers 80 years or
older have a higher crash death rate per miles driven than any other
group except teens.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

Date: 03 May 2007 19:36:46
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On Thu, 3 May 2007 19:51:05 -0500, John Thompson
<john@vector.os2.dhs.org > wrote:

>On 2007-05-03, Bill H. <billhen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
>>
>> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
>> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
>> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>>
>> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
>> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
>> confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
>> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
>> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
>> designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
>Although reaction times do tend to slow with age, young and relatively
>inexperienced drivers (particularly young male drivers) still command
>the lion's share of accidents attributed to driver error:
>
> With the aging of the US population, there is increasing attention to
> the risk of crashes among the elderly. In fact, drivers 80 years or
> older have a higher crash death rate per miles driven than any other
> group except teens.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^

A eighty year old person's response time is equivalent to that of a
person twenty years of age yapping on a cell phone.

The WHO has reported that traffic collisions are the leading cause of
death among persons age 11 to 26.

Older persons are more physically fragile. A survivable injury to a
thirty year old often proves fatal to a senior citizen.
--
zk

Date: 03 May 2007 19:58:57
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Bill H." <billhen@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178214163.665820.207680@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
>
> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> designed to test reaction time and judgment.

How about this one?---

http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGBG79TJ81F.html

PORT RICHEY - Just as she did each school day, Alyssa Tippett walked her
younger brother home from Chasco Elementary on Wednesday afternoon.
But this time it was anything but routine.

Alyssa, 13, was walking west on the sidewalk along Bramblewood Drive to the
family's apartment nearby on Isabella Drive when a 2004 Mitsubishi SUV
struck her about 4 p.m.

"He dragged her under the car," said Alyssa's sister, Ashley, 15, surrounded
by friends and trying to hold back tears that later would come.

Alyssa was flown by medical helicopter to Bayfront Medical Center in St.
Petersburg. Her condition wasn't immediately known Wednesday evening.

Her brother, John Dantouno, 9, was unscathed physically but was distraught
after watching his sister get hit, said the siblings' grandmother, Grace
Taylor.

After hitting Alyssa, the red sport utility vehicle driven by Jose Martinez
mowed down a small tree at 7513 Bramblewood Drive, hit a minivan in the
driveway and then smashed into the partially open garage door.

Somewhere along the way, he took out Dawn Hoffman's mailbox across the
street. She was standing in her living room when something caught her eye
outside.

"I watched my mailbox go flying," said Hoffman, 32. "As soon as I opened my
front door, the car was in the garage."

John Kolesnick, 82, was at the home - where the SUV ended up - when he heard
"a big noise." He and his son, K.C., 47, who owns the house, went outside to
see what the commotion was and heard neighbors yelling.

"There's a girl under there," they hollered.

Hoffman saw Alyssa's feet sticking out from beneath the SUV and, with other
neighbors, ran to aid and comfort the girl. They placed concrete blocks
under the Mitsubishi's tires and jacked up the SUV to relieve the pressure
on Alyssa while waiting for paramedics to arrive.

Alyssa was conscious and talking, K.C. Kolesnick said.

"She was telling me she didn't want to go to the hospital," he said.

Obviously that wasn't an option, Kolesnick said.

Outside in his driveway, he pointed to the fallen tree.

"My tree saved her," Kolesnick said.

The Florida Highway Patrol said Martinez, 58, of 8005 Banister Lane, told
them he was driving with his wife west on Bramblewood when he swerved to
avoid a bicyclist.

"This is my first time in my life," he said about the accident.

Martinez and his wife weren't injured.

---This article doesn't go into detail, but the "driver" was an
elderly(possibly 60s or older) non-English speaking Hispanic who claimed he
was under the influence of prescription drugs. I don't understand how people
who can't speak the language can possibly safely navigate in traffic. He's
lucky he didn't kill the girl.

Date: 04 May 2007 02:04:19
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Gooserider" wrote: ---This article doesn't go into detail, but the
"driver" was an
> elderly(possibly 60s or older)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The article DOES go into detail--it gives his age as 58.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
non-English speaking Hispanic who claimed he was under the influence of
prescription drugs. I don't understand how people who can't speak the
language can possibly safely navigate in traffic. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is there something about these tragedies that brings out the worst in the
worst of us? What possible connection can you make between his language
ability and his driving ability? Presumably he had a driver's license, or
that would have been mentioned in the story along with all the other
details.

Date: 04 May 2007 05:57:55
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:Dww_h.409532$5j1.214118@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Gooserider" wrote: ---This article doesn't go into detail, but the
> "driver" was an
>> elderly(possibly 60s or older)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The article DOES go into detail--it gives his age as 58.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> non-English speaking Hispanic who claimed he was under the influence of
> prescription drugs. I don't understand how people who can't speak the
> language can possibly safely navigate in traffic. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is there something about these tragedies that brings out the worst in the
> worst of us? What possible connection can you make between his language
> ability and his driving ability? Presumably he had a driver's license, or
> that would have been mentioned in the story along with all the other
> details.

Because, LEO, if someone can't read English(and driver's tests are
conveniently given in Spanish for their benefit) they can't read the nice
signage on the side of the road.

Date: 04 May 2007 07:03:35
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com > wrote:
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Is there something about these tragedies that brings out the worst in the
>> worst of us? What possible connection can you make between his language
>> ability and his driving ability? Presumably he had a driver's license, or
>> that would have been mentioned in the story along with all the other
>> details.
>
> Because, LEO, if someone can't read English(and driver's tests are
> conveniently given in Spanish for their benefit) they can't read the nice
> signage on the side of the road.

One doesn't need to know the language to drive safely. Stop signs,
traffic signals, yield signs and speed limits are all visually
distinctive and reasonably language-neutral. Now, if we're talking
knowing how to get places, that would be a lot harder.

If everyone had to be fluent in the local language to drive, very few
people from the US would ever be able to drive on foreign vacations.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
because breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

Date: 04 May 2007 23:53:36
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu > wrote in message
news:n2rrg4-fbl.ln1@curare.zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Is there something about these tragedies that brings out the worst in
>>> the
>>> worst of us? What possible connection can you make between his language
>>> ability and his driving ability? Presumably he had a driver's license,
>>> or
>>> that would have been mentioned in the story along with all the other
>>> details.
>>
>> Because, LEO, if someone can't read English(and driver's tests are
>> conveniently given in Spanish for their benefit) they can't read the nice
>> signage on the side of the road.
>
> One doesn't need to know the language to drive safely. Stop signs,
> traffic signals, yield signs and speed limits are all visually
> distinctive and reasonably language-neutral. Now, if we're talking
> knowing how to get places, that would be a lot harder.
>
> If everyone had to be fluent in the local language to drive, very few
> people from the US would ever be able to drive on foreign vacations.
>

Someone who can't read English would have a devil of a time navigating in
the construction I faced in Clearwater, FL today. Lots of portable signs
with warnings about road closures and detours---words only, NO pictures.
Very dangerous without a command of the language.

Date: 05 May 2007 18:52:25
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Gooserider" wrote: Someone who can't read English would have a devil of a
time navigating in
> the construction I faced in Clearwater, FL today. Lots of portable signs
> with warnings about road closures and detours---words only, NO pictures.
> Very dangerous without a command of the language.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I will keep an eye on the news from Clearwater to see how many
non-English-speaking drivers plow into children. Seriously, though, folks,
I would expect such temporary signeage to cause such drivers to get confused
and possibly get lost, but not to have accidents.

Date: 04 May 2007 14:48:34
From: dgk
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On Fri, 4 May 2007 07:03:35 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu > wrote:

>Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Is there something about these tragedies that brings out the worst in the
>>> worst of us? What possible connection can you make between his language
>>> ability and his driving ability? Presumably he had a driver's license, or
>>> that would have been mentioned in the story along with all the other
>>> details.
>>
>> Because, LEO, if someone can't read English(and driver's tests are
>> conveniently given in Spanish for their benefit) they can't read the nice
>> signage on the side of the road.
>
>One doesn't need to know the language to drive safely. Stop signs,
>traffic signals, yield signs and speed limits are all visually
>distinctive and reasonably language-neutral. Now, if we're talking
>knowing how to get places, that would be a lot harder.
>
>If everyone had to be fluent in the local language to drive, very few
>people from the US would ever be able to drive on foreign vacations.

or, many of them, in the US. And that includes English speakers.

Date: 03 May 2007 14:52:13
From: Bill H.
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 1:17 pm, gds <gary_j...@msn.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 12:32 pm, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 3, 11:02 am, gds <gary_j...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 3, 10:42 am, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
>
> > > > "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> > > > old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> > > > hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> > > > Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> > > > seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> > > > confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> > > > 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> > > > renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> > > > designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> > > Question #1--What does this have to do with recreational cycling?
>
> > Recreational cyclists have to deal with road hazards, not the least of
> > which is bad drivers. If one of the kids had been riding a bike,
> > would that make a difference to you?
>
> > > Question #2--What is your area of expertise to come to a judgement,
> > > from the facts stated in the article, as to the cause of the accident?
>
> > Well, I have some common sense, for one. Older drivers are worse
> > drivers, by and large. Their hearing, eyesight, and mental acuity
> > deteriorates every year...all part of the aging process. Studies have
> > shown that the older one gets, the slower their reflexes...as well as
> > their ability to judge things like how fast other cars are
> > approaching.
>
> > Also, at least one witness attested to the fact that the engine revved
> > at least twice prior to the crash, which could be accounted for by the
> > driver hitting the gas pedal while trying to hit the brake.
> > Also...brakes don't just "fail" with no warning, especially on newer
> > cars like a 2004 Honda Pilot. In any event, if the driver was going
> > to crash and couldn't stop, why the hell would he aim for a bus stop
> > filled with children? Even in the event of a brake failure, you can
> > presumably still steer, honk the horn, turn off the engine...throw it
> > into reverse (you'll kill your transmission of course)...do something
>
> > I'll allow that there's still more to be known about this, but the
> > fact that the driver didn't immediately get out of the car to help is
> > a little odd. Even odder is the fact that, rather than deal with the
> > emergency at hand, he decided to make a call on his cell phone after
> > getting out of the vehicle.
>
> > What's your explanation?
>
> > > Question #3- What is your area of expertise as to what system of
> > > testing / retesting of older drivers will be of greatest societal
> > > benefit.
>
> > I have none...but anything would be better than nothing...which is
> > pretty much what most states are doing nowadays to ensure the maximum
> > amount of revenue from license / registration fees. But given the
> > facts that old people can't see, hear, or think as well as younger
> > drivers, I think it's society's responsibility to take proactive
> > measures to validate their ability to operate machines that, when used
> > improperly, can kill people. It's the same reason that I don't want a
> > 90-year-old man flying a plane, regardless of whether I'm a passenger
> > or not.
>
> > > Question #4-- You specify "rigourous testing on a road course designed
> > > to test reaction time and judgement." Do you know of such testing for
> > > drivers of any age?
>
> > No. If we were doing it, I wouldn't have suggested it. Some states
> > have stricter laws for younger drivers, resulting in the suspension of
> > a license for an infraction as small as a speeding ticket. I think it
> > would be a good idea to suspend or revoke licenses for older drivers
> > as well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> My first point was that while this may an issue for society at large
> it really isn't germain to cycling. Did this get posted to pedestrian
> sites or to bus stop sites? I don't mean to be silly but the
> relationship to cycling is less than to folks in general.
> My second point is that one should not jump to conclusions based on
> few vetted "facts" especially as they appear in a newspaper.
> My third point is that the sttistics you quote on older drivers are
> very much in dispute. There are some studies that show thqt older
> drivers have issues with reaction time etc. and do start to have
> higher accident rates. But some studies also show that older drivers
> have "less serious" accidents and much lower rates of DUI, excessive
> speding, and reckless driving than say males ages 16-25.
> Some of the more serious accidents involving older drivers have been
> linked to problems with medication and/or dramatic health events such
> as a heart attack, problems with blood sugar etc.
> My fourth point is that -in my view- the problem is not with testing
> but with enforcement. I think most folks have personal expereince that
> would suggest that many if not most (if not almost all) the dangerous
> driving they witness is behavioural based rather than skill based. So,
> if the problem is that drivers with good reflexes and skills as
> demonstrated on a test then go out and drive recklessly while
> intoxicated what impact would testing have? My choice is that there be
> increased enforcement of serious infractions such as DUI, reckless
> driving, road rage events, excessive speed, and running red lights. If
> that BEHAVIOR was curtailed I think that you would find far fewer
> driving related tragedies than worrying abou the 15 old folks a year
> that have a health event that ends up tragically.
>
> BTW pilot licenses are for life but you need to be retested every 2
> years no matter what your age. Still, most airplane accidents fall
> under "pilot error." It is rare that a flying accident is from
> catastrophic equipment failure.

Good points.

I'm not an expert. I just think that we should be doing a little more
to make sure that those who are driving still have the capacity to
competently handle a motor vehicle under all conditions, including
driving at night, in heavy traffic, etc. Accidents will still happen,
people will still get killed...I'll stipulate to that. But as one
gets older, I think their judgment, hearing, and eyesight all slowly
deteriorate, and what's more -- I think many elderly motorists don't
realize how much worse they are than they used to be. Kind of like
someone who goes for an eye exam and realizes they've been wearing the
wrong prescription for the last two years and just "got used to
it".

Strict, consistent testing for drivers over a certain age may be able
to prevent some of these accidents in the future.

Date: 03 May 2007 14:30:27
From: Bill H.
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 1:26 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178214163.665820.207680@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
>
> > "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> > old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> > hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> > Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> > seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> > confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> > 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> > renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> > designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> What did the "SUV" have to do with it, would it have been prevented if he
> had been driving a Prius? Those evil SUV's just roaming around looking
> for something to destroy.

True. Actually, a smaller car may have caused MORE damage and
injuries, since the children would possibly have been crushed
underneath instead of just "trapped" under the vehicle. In this case,
the higher ground clearance seems to have been a good thing.

I actually have nothing against SUVs, generally. I think they're a
bit unnecessary for most folks, but it's their money and they're
welcome to spend it however they please.

Date: 03 May 2007 15:26:05
From: DI
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Date: 03 May 2007 17:20:35
From: Bob in CT
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On Thu, 03 May 2007 16:26:05 -0400, DI <di9999@cox.net > wrote:

>
> "Bill H." <billhen@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1178214163.665820.207680@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJ=
QRH38.DTL
>>
>> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
>> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
>> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>>
>> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
>> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
>> confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
>> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required t=
o
>> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road cours=
e
>> designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>>
>
> What did the "SUV" have to do with it, would it have been prevented if=
he
> had been driving a Prius? Those evil SUV's just roaming around look=
ing
> for something to destroy.
>
>

He probably wouldn't have been able to take out as many people. Moreove=
r, =

it'd be a heck of a lot easier to lift a Prius than a Honda Pilot:

Staff members and parents sprang into action, struggling to lift the Hon=
da =

off the pinned children.

"There were six of us in front of the vehicle trying to lift it, but the=
re =

was nothing happening," Schrag said. "I was a little bit worried because=
=

of the gasoline dripping."

A school janitor produced a jack, Schrag said, but the adults couldn't =

wedge the tool under the crushed car's front end. Finally, with what =

Schrag called "an incredible effort," the adults managed to lift the car=
=

enough to slip the jack into place, then raise the vehicle and free the =
=

students.

-- =

Bob in CT

Date: 03 May 2007 13:17:41
From: gds
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 12:32 pm, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 11:02 am, gds <gary_j...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 3, 10:42 am, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
>
> > > "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> > > old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> > > hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> > > Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> > > seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> > > confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> > > 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> > > renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> > > designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> > Question #1--What does this have to do with recreational cycling?
>
> Recreational cyclists have to deal with road hazards, not the least of
> which is bad drivers. If one of the kids had been riding a bike,
> would that make a difference to you?
>
> > Question #2--What is your area of expertise to come to a judgement,
> > from the facts stated in the article, as to the cause of the accident?
>
> Well, I have some common sense, for one. Older drivers are worse
> drivers, by and large. Their hearing, eyesight, and mental acuity
> deteriorates every year...all part of the aging process. Studies have
> shown that the older one gets, the slower their reflexes...as well as
> their ability to judge things like how fast other cars are
> approaching.
>
> Also, at least one witness attested to the fact that the engine revved
> at least twice prior to the crash, which could be accounted for by the
> driver hitting the gas pedal while trying to hit the brake.
> Also...brakes don't just "fail" with no warning, especially on newer
> cars like a 2004 Honda Pilot. In any event, if the driver was going
> to crash and couldn't stop, why the hell would he aim for a bus stop
> filled with children? Even in the event of a brake failure, you can
> presumably still steer, honk the horn, turn off the engine...throw it
> into reverse (you'll kill your transmission of course)...do something
>
> I'll allow that there's still more to be known about this, but the
> fact that the driver didn't immediately get out of the car to help is
> a little odd. Even odder is the fact that, rather than deal with the
> emergency at hand, he decided to make a call on his cell phone after
> getting out of the vehicle.
>
> What's your explanation?
>
> > Question #3- What is your area of expertise as to what system of
> > testing / retesting of older drivers will be of greatest societal
> > benefit.
>
> I have none...but anything would be better than nothing...which is
> pretty much what most states are doing nowadays to ensure the maximum
> amount of revenue from license / registration fees. But given the
> facts that old people can't see, hear, or think as well as younger
> drivers, I think it's society's responsibility to take proactive
> measures to validate their ability to operate machines that, when used
> improperly, can kill people. It's the same reason that I don't want a
> 90-year-old man flying a plane, regardless of whether I'm a passenger
> or not.
>
> > Question #4-- You specify "rigourous testing on a road course designed
> > to test reaction time and judgement." Do you know of such testing for
> > drivers of any age?
>
> No. If we were doing it, I wouldn't have suggested it. Some states
> have stricter laws for younger drivers, resulting in the suspension of
> a license for an infraction as small as a speeding ticket. I think it
> would be a good idea to suspend or revoke licenses for older drivers
> as well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My first point was that while this may an issue for society at large
it really isn't germain to cycling. Did this get posted to pedestrian
sites or to bus stop sites? I don't mean to be silly but the
relationship to cycling is less than to folks in general.
My second point is that one should not jump to conclusions based on
few vetted "facts" especially as they appear in a newspaper.
My third point is that the sttistics you quote on older drivers are
very much in dispute. There are some studies that show thqt older
drivers have issues with reaction time etc. and do start to have
higher accident rates. But some studies also show that older drivers
have "less serious" accidents and much lower rates of DUI, excessive
speding, and reckless driving than say males ages 16-25.
Some of the more serious accidents involving older drivers have been
linked to problems with medication and/or dramatic health events such
as a heart attack, problems with blood sugar etc.
My fourth point is that -in my view- the problem is not with testing
but with enforcement. I think most folks have personal expereince that
would suggest that many if not most (if not almost all) the dangerous
driving they witness is behavioural based rather than skill based. So,
if the problem is that drivers with good reflexes and skills as
demonstrated on a test then go out and drive recklessly while
intoxicated what impact would testing have? My choice is that there be
increased enforcement of serious infractions such as DUI, reckless
driving, road rage events, excessive speed, and running red lights. If
that BEHAVIOR was curtailed I think that you would find far fewer
driving related tragedies than worrying abou the 15 old folks a year
that have a health event that ends up tragically.

BTW pilot licenses are for life but you need to be retested every 2
years no matter what your age. Still, most airplane accidents fall
under "pilot error." It is rare that a flying accident is from
catastrophic equipment failure.

Date: 03 May 2007 22:43:07
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

gds wrote:

> My first point was that while this may an issue for society at large
> it really isn't germain to cycling.

Get used to that.

--

David L. Johnson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Date: 03 May 2007 12:32:41
From: Bill H.
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 11:02 am, gds <gary_j...@msn.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 10:42 am, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
>
> > "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> > old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> > hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> > Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> > seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> > confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> > 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> > renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> > designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> Question #1--What does this have to do with recreational cycling?

Recreational cyclists have to deal with road hazards, not the least of
which is bad drivers. If one of the kids had been riding a bike,
would that make a difference to you?

> Question #2--What is your area of expertise to come to a judgement,
> from the facts stated in the article, as to the cause of the accident?

Well, I have some common sense, for one. Older drivers are worse
drivers, by and large. Their hearing, eyesight, and mental acuity
deteriorates every year...all part of the aging process. Studies have
shown that the older one gets, the slower their reflexes...as well as
their ability to judge things like how fast other cars are
approaching.

Also, at least one witness attested to the fact that the engine revved
at least twice prior to the crash, which could be accounted for by the
driver hitting the gas pedal while trying to hit the brake.
Also...brakes don't just "fail" with no warning, especially on newer
cars like a 2004 Honda Pilot. In any event, if the driver was going
to crash and couldn't stop, why the hell would he aim for a bus stop
filled with children? Even in the event of a brake failure, you can
presumably still steer, honk the horn, turn off the engine...throw it
into reverse (you'll kill your transmission of course)...do something

I'll allow that there's still more to be known about this, but the
fact that the driver didn't immediately get out of the car to help is
a little odd. Even odder is the fact that, rather than deal with the
emergency at hand, he decided to make a call on his cell phone after
getting out of the vehicle.

What's your explanation?

> Question #3- What is your area of expertise as to what system of
> testing / retesting of older drivers will be of greatest societal
> benefit.

I have none...but anything would be better than nothing...which is
pretty much what most states are doing nowadays to ensure the maximum
amount of revenue from license / registration fees. But given the
facts that old people can't see, hear, or think as well as younger
drivers, I think it's society's responsibility to take proactive
measures to validate their ability to operate machines that, when used
improperly, can kill people. It's the same reason that I don't want a
90-year-old man flying a plane, regardless of whether I'm a passenger
or not.

> Question #4-- You specify "rigourous testing on a road course designed
> to test reaction time and judgement." Do you know of such testing for
> drivers of any age?

No. If we were doing it, I wouldn't have suggested it. Some states
have stricter laws for younger drivers, resulting in the suspension of
a license for an infraction as small as a speeding ticket. I think it
would be a good idea to suspend or revoke licenses for older drivers
as well.

Date: 03 May 2007 18:10:49
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Bill H." wrote: "Brake failure" my ass. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can't possibly know that. Considering the number and extent of the
injuries, it is certain the car will be examined to verify the driver's
claim. Why don't you keep your mouth shut until the facts are know? I
don't want to conceal anything, so I'll tell you I am 79.

Date: 04 May 2007 00:44:26
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:JAp_h.407699$5j1.58957@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Bill H." wrote: "Brake failure" my ass. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You can't possibly know that. Considering the number and extent of the
> injuries, it is certain the car will be examined to verify the driver's
> claim. Why don't you keep your mouth shut until the facts are know? I
> don't want to conceal anything, so I'll tell you I am 79.

Plus, the time I was in the car with Leo, he didn't mow down anyone.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Date: 04 May 2007 15:41:50
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

"Claire Petersky" wrote: Plus, the time I was in the car with Leo, he
didn't mow down anyone.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fairness, Claire, I should point out that I was only 78 then.

Date: 03 May 2007 14:10:21
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Bill H. wrote:
::
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQRH38.DTL
::
:: "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
:: old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
:: hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
::
:: Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
:: seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
:: confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
:: 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required
:: to renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road
:: course designed to test reaction time and judgment.

I say make everyone be subjected to rigorous testing. I've seen lots of
uncoordinated people try to pull stunts in cars that they have no business
doing.

Date: 03 May 2007 12:24:32
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Bill H. wrote:
> ::
> :: Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> :: seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> :: confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> :: 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required
> :: to renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road
> :: course designed to test reaction time and judgment.
>
> I say make everyone be subjected to rigorous testing. I've seen lots of
> uncoordinated people try to pull stunts in cars that they have no business
> doing.

Yup, I'd like to see a higher standard of testing enforced across the board.

A post I wrote to somewhere else that's on-topic
=============================================================================

Meh, it's okay I guess.

I'd rather see a bit of effort and cash expended on improving crappy drivers.

1) Make the written test harder
2) Emphasize driving safely around cyclists in the manual and test
3) Mandatory written test every 2.5 years
4) Mandatory on-road retest for license every five years
5) Bigger fines for driving-while-being-a-jerk offense [1].

I'll feel a little safer when it seems like you have to do a little more
than fog a mirror to obtain and keep a automobile license.

[1] Reckless driving, Driving on a suspended license, Driving while
talking on the cellphone, etc.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"In our country we have those three unspeakably precious
things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the
prudence never to practice either." -Mark Twain

Date: 03 May 2007 21:51:55
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On Thu, 3 May 2007 12:24:32 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu > wrote:
>
>I'd rather see a bit of effort and cash expended on improving crappy drivers.
>
>1) Make the written test harder
>2) Emphasize driving safely around cyclists in the manual and test
>3) Mandatory written test every 2.5 years
>4) Mandatory on-road retest for license every five years
>5) Bigger fines for driving-while-being-a-jerk offense [1].
>
>I'll feel a little safer when it seems like you have to do a little more
>than fog a mirror to obtain and keep a automobile license.
>
>[1] Reckless driving, Driving on a suspended license, Driving while
> talking on the cellphone, etc.

I'd only differ with you in asking for mandatory jail time for driving
with a suspended or revoked license. Twice the suspension time would
be a good start.

Pat

Email address works as is.

Date: 04 May 2007 06:59:56
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net > wrote:
> On Thu, 3 May 2007 12:24:32 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I'd rather see a bit of effort and cash expended on improving crappy drivers.
>>
>>1) Make the written test harder
>>2) Emphasize driving safely around cyclists in the manual and test
>>3) Mandatory written test every 2.5 years
>>4) Mandatory on-road retest for license every five years
>>5) Bigger fines for driving-while-being-a-jerk offense [1].
>>
>>I'll feel a little safer when it seems like you have to do a little more
>>than fog a mirror to obtain and keep a automobile license.
>>
>>[1] Reckless driving, Driving on a suspended license, Driving while
>> talking on the cellphone, etc.
>
> I'd only differ with you in asking for mandatory jail time for driving
> with a suspended or revoked license. Twice the suspension time would
> be a good start.

I'd prefer impoundment or confiscation of the vehicle. It would make it
a lot less attractive for people to lend their vehicles to people
without a valid license. I believe a few states have started doing this
for repeat DUI offenders.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
Murder is always a mistake -- one should never do anything one cannot
talk about after dinner.
-- Oscar Wilde, "The Picture of Dorian Gray"

Date: 04 May 2007 02:59:41
From: Bill
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Patrick Lamb wrote:
> On Thu, 3 May 2007 12:24:32 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu> wrote:
>> I'd rather see a bit of effort and cash expended on improving crappy drivers.
>>
>> 1) Make the written test harder
>> 2) Emphasize driving safely around cyclists in the manual and test
>> 3) Mandatory written test every 2.5 years
>> 4) Mandatory on-road retest for license every five years
>> 5) Bigger fines for driving-while-being-a-jerk offense [1].
>>
>> I'll feel a little safer when it seems like you have to do a little more
>> than fog a mirror to obtain and keep a automobile license.
>>
>> [1] Reckless driving, Driving on a suspended license, Driving while
>> talking on the cellphone, etc.
>
> I'd only differ with you in asking for mandatory jail time for driving
> with a suspended or revoked license. Twice the suspension time would
> be a good start.
>
> Pat
>
> Email address works as is.

I'm with you on most of this but California is proof that anything can
be screwed up. I took both a written test and a driving test last year
and had points taken off the driving test for shifting my 5 speed 1, 3,
5, as if I didn't know what I was doing. I explained that there was no
need to wear the clutch and gears shifting into every one for a slow
acceleration but he marked me down anyway. When I did a few double
clutch racing style down-shifts to prove I knew what I was doing he was
not impressed. It wasn't by the book, so didn't count. Even the
so-called experts, aren't.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 May 2007 15:55:59
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

Dane Buson wrote:
:: Yup, I'd like to see a higher standard of testing enforced across
:: the board.
::
:: A post I wrote to somewhere else that's on-topic
::
=============================================================================
::
:: Meh, it's okay I guess.
::
:: I'd rather see a bit of effort and cash expended on improving crappy
:: drivers.
::
:: 1) Make the written test harder
:: 2) Emphasize driving safely around cyclists in the manual and test
:: 3) Mandatory written test every 2.5 years
:: 4) Mandatory on-road retest for license every five years
:: 5) Bigger fines for driving-while-being-a-jerk offense [1].
::
:: I'll feel a little safer when it seems like you have to do a little
:: more than fog a mirror to obtain and keep a automobile license.
::
:: [1] Reckless driving, Driving on a suspended license, Driving while
:: talking on the cellphone, etc.

This is good stuff. I'd like to see something like this put into practice
across the US. I think we've become too lazy on the roads....too many
distractions and too many people in too big of a hurry and caring too little
about who they might hurt. And too little willingness to take responsibility
for one's actions.

Date: 03 May 2007 11:02:50
From: gds
Subject: Re: SUV mows down children

On May 3, 10:42 am, "Bill H." <bill...@gmail.com > wrote:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/03/BAGJ1PJQR...
>
> "Brake failure" my ass. The problem was with the driver, a 70-year
> old man who, most likely, got confused or distracted and ended up
> hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.
>
> Anyone else think we need to keep old people out of the driver's
> seat? Their reaction time is slower, and they're more likely to get
> confused. I know there's plenty of perfectly lucid drivers in their
> 70s or 80s out there...but I think they should at least be required to
> renew their license annually through rigorous testing on a road course
> designed to test reaction time and judgment.

Question #1--What does this have to do with recreational cycling?
Question #2--What is your area of expertise to come to a judgement,
from the facts stated in the article, as to the cause of the accident?
Question #3- What is your area of expertise as to what system of
testing / retesting of older drivers will be of greatest societal
benefit.
Question #4-- You specify "rigourous testing on a road course designed
to test reaction time and judgement." Do you know of such testing for
drivers of any age?