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Date: 07 Dec 2006 21:34:36
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Same ol' same old
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Seattle's new "Bicycle Master Plan" sounds a little like the old
"Final Solution".
48.3% of respondents to the Seattle Post Intelligencer site's poll
want to see more ghettos. Since ghettos, in one form or another, are
the only options in the poll it's 100% in favour of ghettoising
cyclists. I'm not holding out much hope.
The "Soundoff" feedback is the same old sort of hateful ignorance
we're used to seeing after trolls cross-post their rants to the
rec.autos.driving group of idiots except pedestrians too get in on
the bike bashing.
Don't anyone give me that old bullshit about one cyclist "giving us
all a bad name". Society always has had and will continue to have a
bad attitude toward cyclists. All master plans like Seattle's will
assure we're continued to be treated as second class citizens simply
for our chosen mode of transportation.
It's been 110 years since the first bicyclist was struck by a car. I
guess we'll get used to it someday. It doesn't sound like Seattle's
plan is going to do anything to change the status quo for those of us
who choose to ride our streets.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/283525_biked.asp
<pffffffft! >
--
zk
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 20:52:55
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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In article <wTgfh.465159$5R2.125798@pd7urf3no >,
"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > writes:
> Grange is one route west of Willingdon that misses Kingsway to just east of
> Smith. Maybe you missed that one.
> 49th is okay but it takes you away from Broadway not toward it.
> I am essentially going North/West on 7/11
Now that I recall, I was referring to Rumble St.,
when I mentioned: "There's also a way to stay
on the streets (that east/west arterial just south
of Imperial, I forget its name) to Patterson."
As you know, Rumble hooks-up to 49th on the Vancouver side.
A bicycle-friendly route from Central Park to Broadway
poses an interesting problem. Kingsway can be such a
barrier.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 15:08:48
From: bdbafh
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Zoot Katz wrote:
> > ...
> > I am in Vancouver so not qualified to comment or criticise Seattle's
> > bike plan. I was just ranting about its apparent fixation on bike
> > lanes and off-street facilities. I'm sure people there find some of
> > them handy as there is often no other way to get where they're going
> > considering the number of freeways there....
>
> My proposal:
>
> A property tax surcharge on motor vehicle parking spaces.
>
> Offsetting tax breaks for secure bicycle parking and proper
> showers/changing facilities.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
taxes go into general funds.
they do not get earked for specific purposes.
passing a new tax is likely the worst thing that can be done to "solve
a problem".
-bdbafh
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 19:39:41
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Zoot Katz wrote:
> ...
> I am in Vancouver so not qualified to comment or criticise Seattle's
> bike plan. I was just ranting about its apparent fixation on bike
> lanes and off-street facilities. I'm sure people there find some of
> them handy as there is often no other way to get where they're going
> considering the number of freeways there....
My proposal:
A property tax surcharge on motor vehicle parking spaces.
Offsetting tax breaks for secure bicycle parking and proper
showers/changing facilities.
--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:54:37
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> Zoot Katz wrote:
>> ...
>> I am in Vancouver so not qualified to comment or criticise Seattle's
>> bike plan. I was just ranting about its apparent fixation on bike
>> lanes and off-street facilities. I'm sure people there find some of
>> them handy as there is often no other way to get where they're going
>> considering the number of freeways there....
>
> My proposal:
>
> A property tax surcharge on motor vehicle parking spaces.
How about we just get rid of the $2000 per employee/parking space (IIRC)
deduction businesses can currently get? That would help discourage a
lot of wasted asphalt right there.
> Offsetting tax breaks for secure bicycle parking and proper
> showers/changing facilities.
Getting rid of the tax breaks for automobiles should leave plenty of
room in the budget for a tax break for bicycles. So, I think my
suggestion works out nicely.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
The defense attorney was hammering away at the plaintiff:
"You claim," he jeered, "that my client came at you with a broken bottle
in his hand. But is it not true, that you had something in YOUR hand?"
"Yes," the man admitted, "his wife. Very charming, of course,
but not much good in a fight."
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 19:07:30
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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In article <C8heh.449548$5R2.111550@pd7urf3no >,
"nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > writes:
> I take the 7/11 from Surrey to Vancouver in good weather.
> It is not slow by any means. There is a bike path and a pedestrian path in
> the BBY. section but peds like the bike path, go figur' I am usually the
> only one on the path going my way. Metrotown is slow and cautious,
> however.
A good little shortcut when coming from Surrey to Vancouver is
to (in Burnaby) take to the streets via Beresford - > Antrim ->
Victory - > Sussex, back on the 7-Eleven Trail at the pink
Burnaby Stor-All building (and Metrotown.) Same route in
reverse going the other way. That gets you past that horrid
intersection of Central Blvd/Imperial/Jubilee. Those streets
are quiet, nice & wide and fairly quick for a bike. No lights
at the crossings of the "big streets" like Royal Oak and Nelson,
but that's good because you get a break in the cross traffic
sooner than waiting for a timed or loop-controlled light.
Sussex from Victory to the 7-Eleven trail is a bit of an
upslope, but nowhere as severe as the South Hill south
of Victory.
There's also a way to stay on the streets (that east/west
arterial just south of Imperial, I forget its name) to
Patterson. But the last time I tried that, I missed the
Patterson/Willingdon diversion, and wound up on Willingdon
instead of turning off at Central Park. Which was interesting,
but not a pleasant way to spend a Friday afternoon rush hour.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:50:20
From: nash
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Grange is one route west of Willingdon that misses Kingsway to just east of
Smith. Maybe you missed that one.
49th is okay but it takes you away from Broadway not toward it.
I am essentially going North/West on 7/11
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:46:23
From: nash
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Willingdon is horrid. I use to do that alot. turned off where the bus
turns off and then back on. Was alot younger then though.
Thanks for the diversion. I come from Surrey and the little bit you are
making me miss does not compensate for me figuring it out. Will see next
time maybe. Thanks. I stop at The Bread Garden some times so that is why I
like the slowdown. The one near the jubilee,imperial, central blvd. light.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:37:49
From: Tyson
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Holland has the best bike-friendly road system. And pretty clever
considering how densly populated it is.
http://www.multiline.com.au/%7Ebta/goodidea/gi941112.htm
http://ohbike.org/trips/belgium/P6150335a.jpg
http://ohbike.org/trips/belgium/P6110297a.jpg
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:21:03
From: Mark Hickey
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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"Tyson" <tyson@tyson.net > wrote:
>Holland has the best bike-friendly road system. And pretty clever
>considering how densly populated it is.
>
>http://www.multiline.com.au/%7Ebta/goodidea/gi941112.htm
>http://ohbike.org/trips/belgium/P6150335a.jpg
>http://ohbike.org/trips/belgium/P6110297a.jpg
Here's a link to the (IMHO excellent) icopa County (Arizona -
basically, the Phoenix metropolitan region) Bike Plan.
http://www.mcdot.icopa.gov/bicycle/BikePlan/bikeplan.PDF
It's a big file, but a worthwhile read, and would be (IMHO again) a
good reference document for any urban planner trying to figure out how
to create a bicycle transportation plan. I've ridden tens of
thousands of miles on this system, and while not perfect, it's the
best urban cycling I've done - by far.
k Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 22:14:32
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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In article <k7uhn2tna8prspv16d62rv6js437an6k2b@4ax.com >,
Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com > writes:
> Seattle's new "Bicycle Master Plan" sounds a little like the old
> "Final Solution".
>
> 48.3% of respondents to the Seattle Post Intelligencer site's poll
> want to see more ghettos. Since ghettos, in one form or another, are
> the only options in the poll it's 100% in favour of ghettoising
> cyclists. I'm not holding out much hope.
[snip]
> <pffffffft!>
Yeah, hope sux.
But maybe some folx will steam-up the gumption to put some
of this onto some other folx's asses:
http://www.completestreets.org/howtogetto.html
Note that says "how to get to," not "how to ghetto."
Hope sux, but it's all we've got.
Anyways, maybe what we need is not white lines that dek
where bicycles can go, but rather, white lines that dek
where no vehicle /should/ go. "Stay to the left of that
white line, or else yer in the door zone, boy!"
Maybe anti-bike lanes are the answer. k-out the areas
along streets & roads where bikes /shouldn't/ be. Maybe
when drivers /don't/ see riders in those no-bike zones,
they'd have less of a hard-on about it.
OTOH, probably not.
Ya can't win.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:21:09
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 22:14:32 -0800, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:
>Ya can't win.
I'd just like to see the playing field levelled.
3000 lbs of scud smacks down a bicyclist.
3000 lbs of cyclists and two-by-fours inflict the same amount of
bodily injury on said scud jockey.
I'd settle fot the existing laws being enforced but the penalties
increased. Make them afraid to drive for fear it could be their last
trip regardless of their post-crash survival gear. Put them in a coma
and leave 'em there.
We'd never miss the number of drivers who've killed cyclists. The
roads would still be grid locked.
--
zk
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 15:28:09
From: nash
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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Hi Zoot,
thought you were in Vancouver. Anyway, Vancouver, I think is the best I
have lived in for cycling. There dedicated cycle routes are off the main
drag by about a block. You can actually get there from here as they put it.
Bike lanes are always full of mud like now, or glass the way it is in
Surrey. And they never go where you want to go anyway. So drivers target
you sometimes unless you are on the sidewalk.
Course Van. cleans the streets once a week so that helps alot. The Bike
signs are painted on the middle of the road so drivers know what to expect.
There are lots of islands to slow up traffic, and bike only through ways.
Even cyclist activated crossing buttons. If Seattle started out small by
just dedicating streets it would be all you really have to do.
I thought the US had alot of railroads converted to Bike Trails. Is
there not enough I guess? The 7/11 trail here would be similar. Skytrain,
train tracks and Power Stations is what you will see mostly as their
guideline.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:04:25
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:28:09 GMT, "nash"
<zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net > wrote:
>Hi Zoot,
> thought you were in Vancouver. Anyway, Vancouver, I think is the best I
>have lived in for cycling. There dedicated cycle routes are off the main
>drag by about a block. You can actually get there from here as they put it.
>Bike lanes are always full of mud like now, or glass the way it is in
>Surrey. And they never go where you want to go anyway. So drivers target
>you sometimes unless you are on the sidewalk.
I am in Vancouver so not qualified to comment or criticise Seattle's
bike plan. I was just ranting about its apparent fixation on bike
lanes and off-street facilities. I'm sure people there find some of
them handy as there is often no other way to get where they're going
considering the number of freeways there.
The bike lanes Vancouver has implemented are disasters, IMO. Yet
they're the focus for much of the lobbying done by the VACC. Bike
lanes and separate facilities sound good to most non-cyclists and
many of the cyclists who haven't learned their chops. Bike lanes are
cheap and easy to do poorly so that's what we get. The worst one of
the newest bike lanes is two stripes painted in the door zone on a
street that already had a wide curb lane.
> Course Van. cleans the streets once a week so that helps alot. The Bike
>signs are painted on the middle of the road so drivers know what to expect.
>There are lots of islands to slow up traffic, and bike only through ways.
>Even cyclist activated crossing buttons. If Seattle started out small by
>just dedicating streets it would be all you really have to do.
The "bike routes" in Vancouver are generally good but there are
better streets adjacent to them. I'll sometimes incorporate one into
my journey. The traffic calming efforts don't really do much except
confuse drivers or just piss them off so they disregard the signs and
barricades prohibiting their entry. Without enforcement those
measures are rather pointless. It was three days after the snow
before I saw a salt truck on any of the side streets comprising the
bike route system. They're rarely swept in contrast to the main
streets. The punch buttons are often set so that they give you a
signal at the same time as there is a normally occurring break in
traffic. Another pointless measure, IMO.
> I thought the US had alot of railroads converted to Bike Trails. Is
>there not enough I guess? The 7/11 trail here would be similar. Skytrain,
>train tracks and Power Stations is what you will see mostly as their
>guideline.
>
The 7/11 trail and Greenway are FMUPs. Nice for recreational rides if
you're going slow, I guess.
--
zk
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 17:19:30
From: nash
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com > wrote in message
news:0e4jn29ep4uq3ces0gkhe5lfesuu57vv9e@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:28:09 GMT, "nash"
> <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net> wrote:
>
>>Hi Zoot,
>> thought you were in Vancouver. Anyway, Vancouver, I think is the best
>> I
>>have lived in for cycling. There dedicated cycle routes are off the main
>>drag by about a block. You can actually get there from here as they put
>>it.
>>Bike lanes are always full of mud like now, or glass the way it is in
>>Surrey. And they never go where you want to go anyway. So drivers
>>target
>>you sometimes unless you are on the sidewalk.
>
> I am in Vancouver so not qualified to comment or criticise Seattle's
> bike plan. I was just ranting about its apparent fixation on bike
> lanes and off-street facilities. I'm sure people there find some of
> them handy as there is often no other way to get where they're going
> considering the number of freeways there.
>
> The bike lanes Vancouver has implemented are disasters, IMO. Yet
> they're the focus for much of the lobbying done by the VACC. Bike
> lanes and separate facilities sound good to most non-cyclists and
> many of the cyclists who haven't learned their chops. Bike lanes are
> cheap and easy to do poorly so that's what we get. The worst one of
> the newest bike lanes is two stripes painted in the door zone on a
> street that already had a wide curb lane.
>
>> Course Van. cleans the streets once a week so that helps alot. The
>> Bike
>>signs are painted on the middle of the road so drivers know what to
>>expect.
>>There are lots of islands to slow up traffic, and bike only through ways.
>>Even cyclist activated crossing buttons. If Seattle started out small by
>>just dedicating streets it would be all you really have to do.
>
> The "bike routes" in Vancouver are generally good but there are
> better streets adjacent to them. I'll sometimes incorporate one into
> my journey. The traffic calming efforts don't really do much except
> confuse drivers or just piss them off so they disregard the signs and
> barricades prohibiting their entry. Without enforcement those
> measures are rather pointless. It was three days after the snow
> before I saw a salt truck on any of the side streets comprising the
> bike route system. They're rarely swept in contrast to the main
> streets. The punch buttons are often set so that they give you a
> signal at the same time as there is a normally occurring break in
> traffic. Another pointless measure, IMO.
>
>> I thought the US had alot of railroads converted to Bike Trails. Is
>>there not enough I guess? The 7/11 trail here would be similar.
>>Skytrain,
>>train tracks and Power Stations is what you will see mostly as their
>>guideline.
>>
> The 7/11 trail and Greenway are FMUPs. Nice for recreational rides if
> you're going slow, I guess.
> --
I was talking about the Broadway/Adanac corridor Ontario St. N/S and
seawalk through False Creek(really slow though) to Downtown.
I never mentioned or have even seen bike lanes in Van. when I lived there.
You can go from Deep Cove to UBC almost all on a bike designated corridor.
Just follow the signs. Very cheap.
That is why I brought it up. The buttons, bike lanes, and islands are
useless.
I take the 7/11 from Surrey to Vancouver in good weather.
It is not slow by any means. There is a bike path and a pedestrian path in
the BBY. section but peds like the bike path, go figur' I am usually the
only one on the path going my way. Metrotown is slow and cautious,
however. My heartrate was 190/m one day after that ride. That is fast
enough in my opinion.
And if you get tired or the rain bothers you hop the Skytrain. It is never
more than a few blocks away.
Lots of hills for the extreme trainees too.
Ciau
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 17:12:57
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:04:25 -0800, Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com >
wrote:
>The "bike routes" in Vancouver are generally good but there are
>better streets adjacent to them. I'll sometimes incorporate one into
>my journey.
Ditto here in Houston; one such lunacy is W 11th St, a very busy
4-lane road that had less lane width than it needed to begin with.
One block north is a perfectly acceptable route that has very little
vehicle traffic...and that's where I ride. Possibly worse is Clay
Road west of Old Hempstead Highway; high curbs make escape nearly
impossible when a wide-load semi is bearing down from behind, and the
street was too narrow before they striped in a bike lane. To date,
the number of cyclists I've seen using it is precisely one...a guy on
a mountain bike who was clearly a low-rent carless commuter.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 17:45:23
From: nash
Subject: Re: Same ol' same old
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>>>>>Possibly worse is Clay
Road west of Old Hempstead Highway; high curbs make escape nearly
impossible when a wide-load semi is bearing down from behind, and the
street was too narrow before they striped in a bike lane. To date,
The equivalent in Surrey would be River Rd. I use to take it because it was
the only way to the ferry on a bike. It was bad then and now they have a
bike lane on it although it is like 5 inches somewheres. At least half the
traffic is semis and huge dumptrucks. They take big chances with your life
that have no point but to show off.
If you want an adrenalin rush that is the place to go. Forget about all
your worries and just hope you can survive the trip.
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