Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

bicycle-forum.net
Promoting biking discussion.

Main

Date: 16 Aug 2007 08:10:58
From: dgk
Subject: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
down for me.

From Newsday, original article:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story

For those that don't like links:

ALBANY - Gov. Eliot Spitzer vetoed a measure yesterday that would have
allowed Segways in bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders, just
like bicycles.

The two-wheeled, self-balancing scooters are permitted only on private
property because they are considered motor vehicles that lack the turn
signals or windshields required for use on roads.

The governor vetoed the bill because Segways and bicycles are too
different to be used in similar places, and allowing Segways on roads
would cause a "number of public safety issues," a state source said.
The governor's office noted that the Segway owner's manual says it is
not intended for use on roads.

The legislation, sponsored by Sen. Owen Johnson (R-West Babylon), was
opposed by a wide range of groups, including the American Automobile
Association, New York Public Interest Research Group and the New York
Conference of Mayors. The groups said they were concerned that it
would result in having Segways on sidewalks and in other
pedestrian-only zones, as original legislation introduced in 2002
attempted. The bill would have permitted individual localities to
decide whether they wanted the devices on sidewalks.

Johnson first met the Segway's creator, Dean Kamen, originally from
Rockville Centre, 10 years ago, when Kamen helped set up a
school-business partnership involving robotics. Johnson said he found
the Segway easy to use. "It's something that would be very useful in
suburban areas," he said. "You can go get a bottle of milk without
using a gallon of gasoline," he said.

New York City police use 10 of the devices to patrol parks, beaches
and stadiums, and the City of Long Beach bought two to monitor the
boardwalk.

Segway insists its products are suited for close-to-home, one-person
trips that the federal Environmental Protection Agency estimates make
up almost half of the 900 million car trips Americans take each year.
The American Lung Association was not convinced the device would be
used instead of automobiles. "For years the state has encouraged New
Yorkers to reduce vehicle miles traveled by walking, taking mass
transit or car pooling," Michael Seilback, senior director of public
policy for the American Lung Association of New York State. "This bill
is about providing people with an alternative to walking."

Formula One Motor Sports dealer Peter Joseph sells about 10 to 15
Segways a month in Oakdale. He said most of his customers are middle
or upper class, and in their late 30s. "It's something they see and
they want to take part in it," he said, adding that he also sells many
for warehouse managers.

The bill, which had been kicking around the legislature for five years
but had yet to reach the governor's desk before this year, passed the
Senate 55-6 and the Assembly 100-30, which would be enough to override
the veto.

More articles

Copyright © 2007, Newsday Inc.

Date: 18 Aug 2007 01:46:41
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

In article <ohf8c3hu1lfn8abger8u9c0k4dnoseh54s@4ax.com >,
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com > writes:
> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
> down for me.
>
>
> From Newsday, original article:
> http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story
>
>
> For those that don't like links:
>
>
> ALBANY - Gov. Eliot Spitzer vetoed a measure yesterday that would have
> allowed Segways in bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders, just
> like bicycles.
>
> The two-wheeled, self-balancing scooters are permitted only on private
> property because they are considered motor vehicles that lack the turn
> signals or windshields required for use on roads.

I wonder how good a bank-robbery getaway vehicle
a Segway would be?

I guess it would be pretty identifiable.

And it wouldn't provide much protection in
the case of a shootout a la Bonnie & Clyde.

And the battery would likely peter out at
a critical moment. Just before the dye pack
in the money sack explodes.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Date: 17 Aug 2007 22:11:15
From: bluezfolk
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Aug 16, 11:19 pm, Zoot Katz <zootk...@operamail.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:53:25 GMT, "Mike Kruger"
>
>
>
> <Mik...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >David L. Johnson wrote:
> >> dgk wrote:
> >>> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
> >>> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
> >>> down for me.
>
> >> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
> >> we?
> >> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
> >> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
> >> next one down the line?
>
> >> Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
> >> "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.
>
> >> Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.
>
> >I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
> >Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.
>
> I think sidewalk users are more tolerant of Segways than bicycles or
> skateboards on sidewalks. AFAIK, Segways are legal on sidewalks and
> FMUPs everywhere. The possible speed differential makes them a hazard
> for ambulatory folk.
>
> Skaters and boarders are permitted to use Vancouver's streets.
> They're not relegated to bike lanes though they do use them.
>
> A Segway takes up less room than a skater and is more predictable
> than a boarder so therefore is easier to pass.
>
> I see no problem adding them to traffic in bike lanes.
> Give 'em the door zone.
> --
> zk

In my state bicycles are supposed to stay of the sidewalks
because they are vehicles, which makes sense to me. Segways should
probably be classified as motor vehicles and be allowed on the streets
if they are registered, insured, inspected and operated by a licensed
individual. They certainly shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalks. We
don't have enough bike lanes for segways to even be an issue.

Eric

Date: 17 Aug 2007 12:04:08
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

dgk wrote:
> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
> down for me.
>
>
> From Newsday, original article:
> http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story
>
>
> For those that don't like links:
>
>
> ALBANY - Gov. Eliot Spitzer vetoed a measure yesterday that would have
> allowed Segways in bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders, just
> like bicycles.

<snip >

Segway tried to get permission to be used on multi-use trails in my
area, but was turned down.

"http://losgatosobserver.com/los-gatos/Article.php?article_id=0143"

While philosophically I agree with the ban, I don't think it's a big
deal. First, there are very few Segways around. Second, the Segway
riders I've seen ride in a predictable manner, staying to the right,
something that can't be said of pedestrians that string out across the
whole trail blocking cyclists in both directions. Banning commercial
tours with the Segway is a good idea though.

See:
"Segway scooter user group folds due to lack of interest"
"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/08/08/financial/f161626D82.DTL&feed=rss.news"

Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:20:24
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Aug 16, 6:03 pm, Road Dog <no...@nowhere.com > wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
> > than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.
>
> I think that's the rub. Bicyclists are generally welcomed
> because they replace a car. But does a Segway replace a
> car... or a pedestrian ?

Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:40:30
From: Road Dog
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

Bob wrote:
>
> Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
> car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
> is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
> momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.

I'm sorry that autos don't treat you so well where you are.
When I say they are welcomed, that is my experience and my
opinion, not an overstatement.

Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:57:21
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

Road Dog wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>>
>> Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
>> car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
>> is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
>> momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.
>
> I'm sorry that autos don't treat you so well where you are.
> When I say they are welcomed, that is my experience and my
> opinion, not an overstatement.

You didn't identify where you were. Bob's writing from the Chicago area (as
am I) and it would use the term "tolerated" rather than "welcomed".

Of course, maybe it's just perception. Claire, for example, thinks motorists
are often congratulating us for being one with the road (NSFW):

http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/road.html

Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:15:23
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Aug 16, 7:10 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com > wrote:
> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
> down for me.
>

Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
are too wide? Unfortunately, so are many cyclists. Because they have
an electric motor? Nowhere I know of bans bikes with electric "assist"
motors from using those facilities. Because they are non-utilitarian
toys? Many people think that about bikes. You seem to be saying that
bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders are "our" roads. Are you
sure you want to carry that to its logical conclusion, that bikes
don't belong anywhere *except* those facilities?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 17 Aug 2007 22:26:01
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

Bob Hunt wrote:
> On Aug 16, 7:10 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
>> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
>> down for me.
>>
>
> Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
> shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
> are too wide?...

Gee Bob, I though you were against anything wide using the trails.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 17 Aug 2007 09:13:41
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

Bob wrote:

> Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
> shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
> are too wide? Unfortunately, so are many cyclists. Because they have
> an electric motor? Nowhere I know of bans bikes with electric "assist"
> motors from using those facilities. Because they are non-utilitarian
> toys? Many people think that about bikes. You seem to be saying that
> bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders are "our" roads. Are you
> sure you want to carry that to its logical conclusion, that bikes
> don't belong anywhere *except* those facilities?
>

Excellent rationale for abolishing bike lanes.

Wayne

Date: 16 Aug 2007 17:09:23
From: Just A User
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

Date: 16 Aug 2007 20:48:21
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Aug 16, 11:56 am, catzz66 <catz...@threeletterservice.com > wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>
> > We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?
>
> > I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
> > cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
> > next one down the line?
>
> >...
>
> Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
> as far as I am concerned.

Huh? Bike lanes usually exist because of speed differences between
certain types of vehicles, not because cyclists need moral
exclusivity. Segways are just fine on the paths, as are motorized
wheelchairs and scooters for folks that can't walk. Doesn't chap my
ass one bit. Heck, back in Gothenburg they allowed mopeds under 50cc
on the bike roads and nobody seemed to get steamed.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 16:15:34
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

landotter wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
>>as far as I am concerned.
>
>
> Huh? Bike lanes usually exist because of speed differences between
> certain types of vehicles, not because cyclists need moral
> exclusivity. Segways are just fine on the paths, as are motorized
> wheelchairs and scooters for folks that can't walk. Doesn't chap my
> ass one bit. Heck, back in Gothenburg they allowed mopeds under 50cc
> on the bike roads and nobody seemed to get steamed.
>

Wheelchairs and scooters for the handicapped ought to be excepted from
any bike lane prohibitions as far as I am concerned, but we're talking
about Segways. The laws probably vary widely as to what is considered a
motorized vehicle and where it may be legally operated. The original
premise is a moot point for me anyway. I live in a very large city with
lots of multiple use paths, but no bike lanes to speak of.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 10:49:36
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

dgk wrote:
> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
> down for me.
>
We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
next one down the line?

Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
"cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem. Segway has
flopped, aside from a niche market. The only one I've seen in the past
year was ridden by a woman with a prosthetic leg. She loved the thing,
since it allowed her the kind of mobility she lost when she lost the
leg. But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

I do doubt that such a machine could replace a significant amount of car
traffic. The claims about most car trips being only close-to-home is
patently false for most suburban developments, since there is literally
no place to go that is close to home, except for other homes that look
just like yours. Most car trips are beyond the distance many people
would tolerate at 12mph or less, so the Segway is no more attractive to
these people than a bike would be. Besides, on one of them you are not
isolated from the rest of the world by a steel and glass cage, which is
a big part of the appeal of automobiles.

--

David L. Johnson

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
conclusion.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Date: 16 Aug 2007 23:53:25
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

David L. Johnson wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
>> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
>> down for me.
>>
> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
> we?
> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
> next one down the line?
>
> Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
> "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.
>
> Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.

I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:19:14
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:53:25 GMT, "Mike Kruger"
<MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote:

>David L. Johnson wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>>> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
>>> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
>>> down for me.
>>>
>> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
>> we?
>> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
>> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
>> next one down the line?
>>
>> Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
>> "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.
>>
>> Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.
>
>I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
>Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.
>
I think sidewalk users are more tolerant of Segways than bicycles or
skateboards on sidewalks. AFAIK, Segways are legal on sidewalks and
FMUPs everywhere. The possible speed differential makes them a hazard
for ambulatory folk.

Skaters and boarders are permitted to use Vancouver's streets.
They're not relegated to bike lanes though they do use them.

A Segway takes up less room than a skater and is more predictable
than a boarder so therefore is easier to pass.

I see no problem adding them to traffic in bike lanes.
Give 'em the door zone.
--
zk

Date: 16 Aug 2007 16:03:50
From: Road Dog
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

David L. Johnson wrote:
> But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
> than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

I think that's the rub. Bicyclists are generally welcomed
because they replace a car. But does a Segway replace a
car... or a pedestrian ?

Date: 16 Aug 2007 11:56:05
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

David L. Johnson wrote:
>
>>
> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?
>
> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
> next one down the line?
>
>...

Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
as far as I am concerned.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:33:43
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

catzz66 wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?
>>
>> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
>> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
>> next one down the line?
>>
>> ...
>
> Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
> as far as I am concerned.

I kinda doubt it's even worth worrying about.

They still cost way too much for most people to even consider buying,
and most of the photos I've seen of Segways was a bunch of silicon
valley billionaires playing polo somewhere near Redmond.
~

Date: 16 Aug 2007 18:13:55
From: DI
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

"DougC" <dcimper@norcom2000.com > wrote in message
news:Bw2xi.31$j77.4@newsfe04.lga...
> catzz66 wrote:
>> David L. Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>> We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?
>>>
>>> I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
>>> cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
>>> next one down the line?
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>> Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
>> as far as I am concerned.
>
> I kinda doubt it's even worth worrying about.
>
> They still cost way too much for most people to even consider buying, and
> most of the photos I've seen of Segways was a bunch of silicon valley
> billionaires playing polo somewhere near Redmond.
> ~

The problem is not going to be with Segway's, but will be when the cheap
clones start hitting the market. I've already seen one, they don't have
the gyro balancing device but rather 2 smaller trailing wheels for balance.
They sell for about 1/5 of what a Segway sells for.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1433453,00.asp

Wait until Walmart comes out with a Chinese version then they'll be
everywhere, after Segway lobbies for allowing them in what's now restricted
areas.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 12:47:27
From: dgk
Subject: Re: Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:49:36 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
<david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough crap from
>> runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
>> down for me.
>>
>We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?
>
>I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of crap from drivers who think
>cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
>next one down the line?
>
>Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
>"cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.
>
>Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem. Segway has
>flopped, aside from a niche market. The only one I've seen in the past
>year was ridden by a woman with a prosthetic leg. She loved the thing,
>since it allowed her the kind of mobility she lost when she lost the
>leg. But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
>than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.
>
>I do doubt that such a machine could replace a significant amount of car
>traffic. The claims about most car trips being only close-to-home is
>patently false for most suburban developments, since there is literally
>no place to go that is close to home, except for other homes that look
>just like yours. Most car trips are beyond the distance many people
>would tolerate at 12mph or less, so the Segway is no more attractive to
>these people than a bike would be. Besides, on one of them you are not
>isolated from the rest of the world by a steel and glass cage, which is
>a big part of the appeal of automobiles.

So you don't think that it's a bad precedent to allow motorized
vehicles in bike lanes? Also, the top speed is 12.5 mph. I'm pretty
pokey as it goes, averaging around 11mph or so, but I'm often moving
faster than 12.5 and really don't need other things that I have to get
around.

It's not automatic that they shouldn't be allowed and I can see
arguments for it (ie, anything that gets folks out of cars) but these
offer no exercise benefits nor can they carry much. As for the
article, I don't know how someone is going to get a gallon of milk
home on one. I just put it in my bike rack.