Seven month car-free streak broken

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Date: 15 Sep 2006 09:38:28
From: Ken C. M.
Subject: Seven month car-free streak broken

Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
of guilt when they have to drive?

Ken
--
Messengers and mountain bikers share a common chromosome. ~James Bethea

Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:56:51
From: Furious George
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Ken C. M. wrote:
> > Roger Zoul wrote:
> >
> > > I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing you. It
> > > is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to someone in a car.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah that seems to be the reasoning behind the company policy regarding
> > deposits made by bike. At least in a car you can use the go pedal to
> > /go/ in a hurry.
> >
>
> Even a typically moronic theif is not going to try to rob someone while
> they are in their car. They will wait to ambush the person as they are
> getting out of the car, or as they are entering the bank, or if they
> have scoped you out, as you are leaving your store. They may try a
> car-jack type move, but more likely they will wait because they know
> you are going to get out of the car at the bank. A bike is good because
> it can get away from people on foot, and can go where cars can't, so no
> matter how you are being chased, you have a good chance of getting
> away.
>
> Perhaps the best policy is to hand over the dough to any crooks, and
> then shoot them in the back as they are making their escape.

Why shoot them in the back? It is not your money. IMHO, the best
policy is any policy that allows you to live another day.

>
> Joseph

Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:37:39
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:38:28 -0400, "Ken C. M."
<ken@up-yours-spammer.net > wrote:

>Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
>now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
>company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
>feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>of guilt when they have to drive?

If the bank is near the place of business, and the company provides a
resonably secure parking place, why not leave the car at work and
still commute with the bike? Better yet, see if they've got a company
vehicle that you could use for this. You're doing their task...
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Date: 17 Sep 2006 09:43:19
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>
> > I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing you. It
> > is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to someone in a car.
> >
>
> Yeah that seems to be the reasoning behind the company policy regarding
> deposits made by bike. At least in a car you can use the go pedal to
> /go/ in a hurry.
>

Even a typically moronic theif is not going to try to rob someone while
they are in their car. They will wait to ambush the person as they are
getting out of the car, or as they are entering the bank, or if they
have scoped you out, as you are leaving your store. They may try a
car-jack type move, but more likely they will wait because they know
you are going to get out of the car at the bank. A bike is good because
it can get away from people on foot, and can go where cars can't, so no
matter how you are being chased, you have a good chance of getting
away.

Perhaps the best policy is to hand over the dough to any crooks, and
then shoot them in the back as they are making their escape.

Joseph

Date: 17 Sep 2006 13:58:50
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Ken C. M. wrote:
::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::
:::: I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing
:::: you. It is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to
:::: someone in a car.
::::
:::
::: Yeah that seems to be the reasoning behind the company policy
::: regarding deposits made by bike. At least in a car you can use the
::: go pedal to /go/ in a hurry.
:::
::
:: Even a typically moronic theif is not going to try to rob someone
:: while they are in their car. They will wait to ambush the person as
:: they are getting out of the car, or as they are entering the bank,

This would be the time to regain "situational" awareness. I.E., check your
surroundings carefully before getting out of the car and do it in plain
daylight where visibility aids you.

:: or if they have scoped you out, as you are leaving your store. They
:: may try a car-jack type move, but more likely they will wait because
:: they know you are going to get out of the car at the bank. A bike is
:: good because it can get away from people on foot, and can go where
:: cars can't, so no matter how you are being chased, you have a good
:: chance of getting away.

I think that's only true in limited situations. In some situations, being
on a bike can be a limitation compared to being on foot. yeah, once you get
to an open stretch of road you can regain the advantage, provided you're in
the right gear, etc.

::
:: Perhaps the best policy is to hand over the dough to any crooks, and
:: then shoot them in the back as they are making their escape.
::

I agree. :)

Date: 16 Sep 2006 12:09:41
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> :::::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ::::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> :::::::
> :::::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> :::::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily
> :::::::: which is considered by the company I work for to be a security
> :::::::: risk if I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not
> :::::::: riding to work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when
> :::::::: they have to drive?
> ::::::::
> :::::::: Ken
> :::::::
> :::::::
> ::::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then
> ::::::: when I use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have
> ::::::: to find a parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and
> ::::::: out of the car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good
> ::::::: as on a bike. To many distractions using the car, better
> ::::::: situational awareness on my bike.
> :::::::
> ::::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
> ::::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
> ::::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
> ::::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
> ::::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
> ::::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live
> ::::::: it. You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
> :::::::
> :::::: Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved
> :::::: by the main corporate office.
> ::::::
> ::::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
> ::::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
> ::::::: don't do it.
> ::::::
> :::::: Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that
> :::::: I am going to off myself over it.
> ::::::
> :::::: Ken
> :::::
> ::::: I didn't mean you felt THAT bad!
> :::::
> ::::: IMO more responsibiities at work should not preclude you from
> ::::: doing something you like to do outside of work. As new Regional
> ::::: Maneger, you are no longer allowed to fly radio-controlled
> ::::: airplanes on Sunday. That is of course an exageration, but the
> ::::: idea is the same.
> :::
> ::: Dude, you're extreme. Imagine he tells them, "Hey, this job
> ::: requires me to drive my car in so I can drop your money at the
> ::: bank, and that impacts my life outside of work." What is the
> ::: reasonable thing for them to do? Get someone else to do that job
> ::: that doesn't have that issue (which is almost everyone else).
> ::
> :: That's just it. If he was as expendable as my hypothetical
> :: brick-maker, they would indeed just replace him. But I'll bet he is
> :: not so expendable, so the employer will make concessions if it is
> :: important to Ken. But only if he makes it known, and it is important
> :: enough to him to make a issue of it.
>
> Okay, I agree with this. Perhaps Ken can find another solution that allows
> him to ride his bike in and get the deposits done. Where there is a will,
> there is a way!
>
> ::
> ::: From what I know of Ken, I'm certain he'll find time to for
> ::: his bike. I personally would love to ride to/from work, but it's
> ::: 40 miles one way. I'm not going to move to that tiny city just so
> ::: I can ride to/from work. I'll just ride at other times.
> ::
> :: What if your employer in this town 40 miles away decided you need to
> :: move closer so you can come in at a moment's notice to reboot a
> :: server, or empty somebody's colostomy bag or whatever. Would you
> :: move?
>
> Probably! It would depend on whether I could find suitable alternative
> employment elsewhere. In my current situation, I'd move. But it's not
> going to happen for me.
>
> :: Where do you draw the line on what is required of you outside
> :: of work before you find another job or get the employer to make some
> :: concessions to their demands?
>
> It depends.
>
> ::
> :: Joseph
> ::
> :: PS: a 40 mile each way commute is totally doable! (just kidding)
>
> Believe it or not, I have a route mapped. I've not done it though as I'm
> afraid I'd get creamed out on some lonely country road later in the day.
> I'd do the am ride with no issues, though. I've thought of riding in one
> morning, spending the day there, and riding back the next day just to get it
> done while most folks are not on the road. But I really don't need to go
> over there to rack up 80 miles. A co-worker rides in everyday...I'm
> jealous....

A 40 mile commute is a long ride. If there is useable public transport
you could do:

ride to work
bus home
bus to work
ride home
etc.

It also depends a lot on what sort of roads you have to deal with. I
commute a shade over 20 miles 2-4 times a week. Half the ride is on
nice uncongested rural roads, the other half is in a semi-congested
suburban area with crappy bike paths and irritating traffic patterns.
If the rural part was longer I could do an even longer commute, but if
the suburban part were longer, I doubt I could deal with even the 20
miles I do do. With proper lights, riding in the dark isn't that bad,
and I actually believe lonely country roads are safer at night than
semi-lit suburban/urban areas. The lights on the bike and reflectors
stand out better in the darker rural area. But that is easy for me to
say, as nature and my work schedule allow me to ride to and from while
it is still light out (long twilight way up north), but I do go on club
rides in the dark sometimes.

Joseph

Date: 16 Sep 2006 11:56:13
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ::::: Roger Zoul wrote:
> :::::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :::::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> ::::::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> ::::::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily
> ::::::::: which is considered by the company I work for to be a
> ::::::::: security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little
> ::::::::: guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings of
> ::::::::: guilt when they have to drive?
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: Ken
> ::::::::
> :::::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then
> :::::::: when I use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I
> :::::::: have to find a parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting
> :::::::: in and out of the car my awareness of the surroundings isn't
> :::::::: as good as on a bike. To many distractions using the car,
> :::::::: better situational awareness on my bike.
> ::::::
> :::::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
> :::::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving
> :::::: a car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
> :::::
> ::::: The bank box (an armored drawer in the side of the building) is
> ::::: right across the street from a square where all the junkies hang
> ::::: out. The parking is tight. So I have to devote my focus to
> ::::: driving my car in a congested area, fighting for a space, get out
> ::::: of the car, lock it, go walk to the parking meter down the block
> ::::: some place, walk back to the car, open it, lean in and put the
> ::::: meter slip in the window, close the door, lock it, walk over to
> ::::: the drawer and make my drop. All while keeping eyes open in the
> ::::: back of my head. MUCH easier to just roll up on my bike to the
> ::::: drawer, make the drop and roll away. I don't even dismount the
> ::::: bike, just put one foot down.
> :::
> ::: So you're comparing WALKING to riding a bike, not to using a car.
> ::: Come on, people.
> ::
> :: What do you mean?
>
> We were attempting to compare making bank drops using a car or a bike. But
> walking is more of what you're doing.

Unless there is a drive-up window, anyone who uses a car to get to the
bank needs to do some walking, and needs to get out of the car, two
situations where one is quite vulnerable to attack. When I use the car,
it is getting out of the car where I feel most vulnerable. Something
about the transition, and not having been able to see if anyone is
hiding behind a van or some such thing.

> :: To get to the bank I either ride my bike or drive
> :: my car. With the car there is some walking involved because there is
> :: no drive-up window. If my bank had a drive-up window, I'd feel that
> :: using a car was more safe.
>
> Then we are in agreement on this point.

Yes, a car is faster, can be used as a weapon if need be, and provides
some measure of protection from direct attack. But since I need to get
out of the car to do my drop, I prefer doing it on bike which is a much
more controlled circumstance IMO because I do not even need to get off
my bike.

> :: But it doesn't, so I have to park the
> :: car. I usually park the car a max of 20-30m from the drop-drawer so
> :: I'll bet my walking is even less than most others who park in a bank
> :: parking lot and walk in to a teller.
>
> IMO, making bank drops is best done at a drive-up window while in a car.
> But if walking must be done, then parking and going inside is best. I don't
> think riding a bike on a routine basis for bank drops is the best idea.
> Once you get targeted by junkies, crooks, or whatever, you're toast on a
> bike, situational awareness or not.
>
>
> ::
> :::::
> :::::
> ::::::::
> :::::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
> :::::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
> :::::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
> :::::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
> :::::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
> :::::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live
> :::::::: it. You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
> ::::::
> :::::: I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their
> :::::: own cars to do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike
> :::::: riding everywhere" hangup? Hmm....
> :::::
> ::::: It's not like he's a child-laborer in a brick factory in India.
> ::::: I'm sure his emplyer would actually go pretty far to accomodate
> ::::: his wishes, if he makes them known.
> :::
> ::: Right. You're very biased in your POV.
> ::
> :: This idea that he so much at the mercy of his employer that he has to
> :: give up cycling to work or else get fired is ridiculous. The fact
> :: that he is entrusted with the task of making a bank drop shows he is
> :: not someone the employer does not take seriously. If it really is
> :: important to him, and he makes this known to his employer, I'm sure
> :: they could figure something out. And the solution wouldn't be
> :: "you're fired."
>
> Sure. He could arrange for someone else to make the bank drop or use
> someone else's car.
>
> ::
> :::::
> ::::::::
> :::::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
> :::::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
> :::::::: don't do it.
> ::::::
> :::::: Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".
> :::::
> ::::: That is true, but if he is sitting in traffic every day being
> ::::: irritated about it, it will probably only get worse. No reason to
> ::::: do somethng he doesn't want to, if he really doesn't want to.
> :::
> ::: Again, you're very biased.
> ::
> :: What do you mean biased? Why should he do something he doesn't want
> :: to?
>
> Er...his employer doesn't feel it's a good idea to use his bike while making
> bank drops. That's not unreasonable. If the doesn't wish to comply, that's
> a problem.

I don't think it is unreasonable for his employer to not want bank
drops done by bike. What I do think is unreasonable is the idea that he
has to just suck it up and do whatever his employer says, despite it
making a big change in his daily activities outside of work, for fear
of getting fired. As you said above, there is a solution like using
someone elses car, sombdy else doing it, etc.

>
> ::
> ::: I'm all for cycling, but this argument your pushing stretches
> ::: credibility.
> ::
> :: That may be the case, but in a nutshell my argument is he shouldn't
> :: do something he doesn't want to do (drive to work) just because his
> :: employer tells him to.
>
> I'm not exactly sure that's what his employer requested, though it may be
> *his* solution.

That is entirely true. He could take a cab maybe. Then he has a witness
too!

Joseph

Date: 16 Sep 2006 08:16:56
From: Mike A Schwab
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Date: 16 Sep 2006 08:06:02
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: Ken C. M. wrote:
> ::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> ::::
> ::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> ::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
> ::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
> ::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
> ::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
> ::::: drive?
> :::::
> ::::: Ken
> ::::
> ::::
> :::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
> :::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
> :::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
> :::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
> :::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
> :::: on my bike.
> ::::
> :::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required
> :::: to change your behavior outside of work. What if they required
> :::: that you and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If
> :::: a car is required to make bank drops, they should provide the car.
> :::: It can remain parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can
> :::: continue your life as you wish to live it. You might look into
> :::: prices for armored car pick-ups too.
> ::::
> ::: Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved
> ::: by the main corporate office.
> :::
> :::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
> :::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
> :::: don't do it.
> :::
> ::: Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that I am
> ::: going to off myself over it.
> :::
> ::: Ken
> ::
> :: I didn't mean you felt THAT bad!
> ::
> :: IMO more responsibiities at work should not preclude you from doing
> :: something you like to do outside of work. As new Regional Maneger,
> :: you are no longer allowed to fly radio-controlled airplanes on
> :: Sunday. That is of course an exageration, but the idea is the same.
>
> Dude, you're extreme. Imagine he tells them, "Hey, this job requires me to
> drive my car in so I can drop your money at the bank, and that impacts my
> life outside of work." What is the reasonable thing for them to do? Get
> someone else to do that job that doesn't have that issue (which is almost
> everyone else).

That's just it. If he was as expendable as my hypothetical brick-maker,
they would indeed just replace him. But I'll bet he is not so
expendable, so the employer will make concessions if it is important to
Ken. But only if he makes it known, and it is important enough to him
to make a issue of it.

>From what I know of Ken, I'm certain he'll find time to for
> his bike. I personally would love to ride to/from work, but it's 40 miles
> one way. I'm not going to move to that tiny city just so I can ride to/from
> work. I'll just ride at other times.

What if your employer in this town 40 miles away decided you need to
move closer so you can come in at a moment's notice to reboot a server,
or empty somebody's colostomy bag or whatever. Would you move? Where do
you draw the line on what is required of you outside of work before you
find another job or get the employer to make some concessions to their
demands?

Joseph

PS: a 40 mile each way commute is totally doable! (just kidding)

Date: 16 Sep 2006 14:52:16
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
:::::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
::::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
:::::::
:::::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
:::::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily
:::::::: which is considered by the company I work for to be a security
:::::::: risk if I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not
:::::::: riding to work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when
:::::::: they have to drive?
::::::::
:::::::: Ken
:::::::
:::::::
::::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then
::::::: when I use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have
::::::: to find a parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and
::::::: out of the car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good
::::::: as on a bike. To many distractions using the car, better
::::::: situational awareness on my bike.
:::::::
::::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
::::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
::::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
::::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
::::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
::::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live
::::::: it. You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
:::::::
:::::: Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved
:::::: by the main corporate office.
::::::
::::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
::::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
::::::: don't do it.
::::::
:::::: Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that
:::::: I am going to off myself over it.
::::::
:::::: Ken
:::::
::::: I didn't mean you felt THAT bad!
:::::
::::: IMO more responsibiities at work should not preclude you from
::::: doing something you like to do outside of work. As new Regional
::::: Maneger, you are no longer allowed to fly radio-controlled
::::: airplanes on Sunday. That is of course an exageration, but the
::::: idea is the same.
:::
::: Dude, you're extreme. Imagine he tells them, "Hey, this job
::: requires me to drive my car in so I can drop your money at the
::: bank, and that impacts my life outside of work." What is the
::: reasonable thing for them to do? Get someone else to do that job
::: that doesn't have that issue (which is almost everyone else).
::
:: That's just it. If he was as expendable as my hypothetical
:: brick-maker, they would indeed just replace him. But I'll bet he is
:: not so expendable, so the employer will make concessions if it is
:: important to Ken. But only if he makes it known, and it is important
:: enough to him to make a issue of it.

Okay, I agree with this. Perhaps Ken can find another solution that allows
him to ride his bike in and get the deposits done. Where there is a will,
there is a way!

::
::: From what I know of Ken, I'm certain he'll find time to for
::: his bike. I personally would love to ride to/from work, but it's
::: 40 miles one way. I'm not going to move to that tiny city just so
::: I can ride to/from work. I'll just ride at other times.
::
:: What if your employer in this town 40 miles away decided you need to
:: move closer so you can come in at a moment's notice to reboot a
:: server, or empty somebody's colostomy bag or whatever. Would you
:: move?

Probably! It would depend on whether I could find suitable alternative
employment elsewhere. In my current situation, I'd move. But it's not
going to happen for me.

:: Where do you draw the line on what is required of you outside
:: of work before you find another job or get the employer to make some
:: concessions to their demands?

It depends.

::
:: Joseph
::
:: PS: a 40 mile each way commute is totally doable! (just kidding)

Believe it or not, I have a route mapped. I've not done it though as I'm
afraid I'd get creamed out on some lonely country road later in the day.
I'd do the am ride with no issues, though. I've thought of riding in one
morning, spending the day there, and riding back the next day just to get it
done while most folks are not on the road. But I really don't need to go
over there to rack up 80 miles. A co-worker rides in everyday...I'm
jealous....

Date: 16 Sep 2006 16:43:02
From: Chris BeHanna
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:52:16 -0400, Roger Zoul wrote:

> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: [...snip...]
> ::
> :: PS: a 40 mile each way commute is totally doable! (just kidding)
>
> Believe it or not, I have a route mapped. I've not done it though as I'm
> afraid I'd get creamed out on some lonely country road later in the day.
> I'd do the am ride with no issues, though. I've thought of riding in one
> morning, spending the day there, and riding back the next day just to get it
> done while most folks are not on the road. But I really don't need to go
> over there to rack up 80 miles. A co-worker rides in everyday...I'm
> jealous....

I have a commute of similar length to Roger's. What I do when I get
the itch to ride in is to bring the bike to work in the car one day, ride
home that day, ride back the next morning, and take the bike home in the
car that evening.

40 miles on a workday is doable, as it's about 2.5 hours with the hills
around here. 80 miles on a workday, although possible if you're
hell-bent, would put quite a strain on family life, what with 8 hours or
more gone from the workday plus another 5 from riding the bike.

--
Chris BeHanna

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Date: 16 Sep 2006 07:57:28
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> :::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> :::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
> :::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
> :::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
> :::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
> :::::: drive?
> ::::::
> :::::: Ken
> :::::
> ::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
> ::::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
> ::::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
> ::::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
> ::::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
> ::::: on my bike.
> :::
> ::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
> ::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a
> ::: car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
> ::
> :: The bank box (an armored drawer in the side of the building) is right
> :: across the street from a square where all the junkies hang out. The
> :: parking is tight. So I have to devote my focus to driving my car in a
> :: congested area, fighting for a space, get out of the car, lock it, go
> :: walk to the parking meter down the block some place, walk back to the
> :: car, open it, lean in and put the meter slip in the window, close the
> :: door, lock it, walk over to the drawer and make my drop. All while
> :: keeping eyes open in the back of my head. MUCH easier to just roll up
> :: on my bike to the drawer, make the drop and roll away. I don't even
> :: dismount the bike, just put one foot down.
>
> So you're comparing WALKING to riding a bike, not to using a car. Come on,
> people.

What do you mean? To get to the bank I either ride my bike or drive my
car. With the car there is some walking involved because there is no
drive-up window. If my bank had a drive-up window, I'd feel that using
a car was more safe. But it doesn't, so I have to park the car. I
usually park the car a max of 20-30m from the drop-drawer so I'll bet
my walking is even less than most others who park in a bank parking lot
and walk in to a teller.

> ::
> ::
> :::::
> ::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
> ::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
> ::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
> ::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
> ::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
> ::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live it.
> ::::: You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
> :::
> ::: I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their own
> ::: cars to do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike riding
> ::: everywhere" hangup? Hmm....
> ::
> :: It's not like he's a child-laborer in a brick factory in India. I'm
> :: sure his emplyer would actually go pretty far to accomodate his
> :: wishes, if he makes them known.
>
> Right. You're very biased in your POV.

This idea that he so much at the mercy of his employer that he has to
give up cycling to work or else get fired is ridiculous. The fact that
he is entrusted with the task of making a bank drop shows he is not
someone the employer does not take seriously. If it really is important
to him, and he makes this known to his employer, I'm sure they could
figure something out. And the solution wouldn't be "you're fired."

> ::
> :::::
> ::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
> ::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
> ::::: don't do it.
> :::
> ::: Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".
> ::
> :: That is true, but if he is sitting in traffic every day being
> :: irritated about it, it will probably only get worse. No reason to do
> :: somethng he doesn't want to, if he really doesn't want to.
>
> Again, you're very biased.

What do you mean biased? Why should he do something he doesn't want to?

> I'm all for cycling, but this argument your pushing stretches credibility.

That may be the case, but in a nutshell my argument is he shouldn't do
something he doesn't want to do (drive to work) just because his
employer tells him to.

Joseph

Date: 16 Sep 2006 14:41:12
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
::::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:::::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
::::::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
::::::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily
::::::::: which is considered by the company I work for to be a
::::::::: security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little
::::::::: guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings of
::::::::: guilt when they have to drive?
:::::::::
::::::::: Ken
::::::::
:::::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then
:::::::: when I use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I
:::::::: have to find a parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting
:::::::: in and out of the car my awareness of the surroundings isn't
:::::::: as good as on a bike. To many distractions using the car,
:::::::: better situational awareness on my bike.
::::::
:::::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
:::::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving
:::::: a car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
:::::
::::: The bank box (an armored drawer in the side of the building) is
::::: right across the street from a square where all the junkies hang
::::: out. The parking is tight. So I have to devote my focus to
::::: driving my car in a congested area, fighting for a space, get out
::::: of the car, lock it, go walk to the parking meter down the block
::::: some place, walk back to the car, open it, lean in and put the
::::: meter slip in the window, close the door, lock it, walk over to
::::: the drawer and make my drop. All while keeping eyes open in the
::::: back of my head. MUCH easier to just roll up on my bike to the
::::: drawer, make the drop and roll away. I don't even dismount the
::::: bike, just put one foot down.
:::
::: So you're comparing WALKING to riding a bike, not to using a car.
::: Come on, people.
::
:: What do you mean?

We were attempting to compare making bank drops using a car or a bike. But
walking is more of what you're doing.

:: To get to the bank I either ride my bike or drive
:: my car. With the car there is some walking involved because there is
:: no drive-up window. If my bank had a drive-up window, I'd feel that
:: using a car was more safe.

Then we are in agreement on this point.

:: But it doesn't, so I have to park the
:: car. I usually park the car a max of 20-30m from the drop-drawer so
:: I'll bet my walking is even less than most others who park in a bank
:: parking lot and walk in to a teller.

IMO, making bank drops is best done at a drive-up window while in a car.
But if walking must be done, then parking and going inside is best. I don't
think riding a bike on a routine basis for bank drops is the best idea.
Once you get targeted by junkies, crooks, or whatever, you're toast on a
bike, situational awareness or not.

::
:::::
:::::
::::::::
:::::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
:::::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
:::::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
:::::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
:::::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
:::::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live
:::::::: it. You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
::::::
:::::: I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their
:::::: own cars to do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike
:::::: riding everywhere" hangup? Hmm....
:::::
::::: It's not like he's a child-laborer in a brick factory in India.
::::: I'm sure his emplyer would actually go pretty far to accomodate
::::: his wishes, if he makes them known.
:::
::: Right. You're very biased in your POV.
::
:: This idea that he so much at the mercy of his employer that he has to
:: give up cycling to work or else get fired is ridiculous. The fact
:: that he is entrusted with the task of making a bank drop shows he is
:: not someone the employer does not take seriously. If it really is
:: important to him, and he makes this known to his employer, I'm sure
:: they could figure something out. And the solution wouldn't be
:: "you're fired."

Sure. He could arrange for someone else to make the bank drop or use
someone else's car.

::
:::::
::::::::
:::::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
:::::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
:::::::: don't do it.
::::::
:::::: Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".
:::::
::::: That is true, but if he is sitting in traffic every day being
::::: irritated about it, it will probably only get worse. No reason to
::::: do somethng he doesn't want to, if he really doesn't want to.
:::
::: Again, you're very biased.
::
:: What do you mean biased? Why should he do something he doesn't want
:: to?

Er...his employer doesn't feel it's a good idea to use his bike while making
bank drops. That's not unreasonable. If the doesn't wish to comply, that's
a problem.

::
::: I'm all for cycling, but this argument your pushing stretches
::: credibility.
::
:: That may be the case, but in a nutshell my argument is he shouldn't
:: do something he doesn't want to do (drive to work) just because his
:: employer tells him to.

I'm not exactly sure that's what his employer requested, though it may be
*his* solution.

Date: 16 Sep 2006 00:23:54
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Zoot Katz wrote:
> :: On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:07:00 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote, in part:
> ::
> ::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> ::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> :::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> :::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
> :::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
> :::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
> :::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
> :::::: drive?
> ::::::
> :::::: Ken
> :::::
> ::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
> ::::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
> ::::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
> ::::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
> ::::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
> ::::: on my bike.
> :::
> ::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
> ::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a
> ::: car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
> ::
> :: I regularly make bank deposits with my bicycle. It's a mundane task.
> :: I don't know that I'd feel more or less safe in a car. I feel least
> :: safe in the line-up awaiting an open wicket. I'm always glad to get
> :: out of a bank without incident.
>
> If I had large amounts of someone else's money, I'd feel safer in a car.
> Period.

Maybe in the car, but it is the getting out of the car that is the
problem.

> ::
> :: I can agree that the cyclist generally has greater situational
> :: awareness and I can appreciate that it definitely helps maintain ones
> :: personal security.
>
> I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing you. It
> is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to someone in a car.

The situational awareness helps avoid being robbed. You see what is
coming sooner, and are able to avoid it before it happens. When you
lack this awareness, someone is in your face robbing you before you
even know what is going on.

Joseph

> ::
> :: I'd think people in the more expensive cars would be most likely to
> :: catch the eye of a thief. Bicycle riders are pretty much under the
> :: radar.
>
> I don't think it's much of a problem for the typical person driving a car.

Date: 16 Sep 2006 00:20:43
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ken C. M. wrote:
> >
> >>Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
> >>now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
> >>company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
> >>feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
> >>of guilt when they have to drive?
> >>
> >>Ken
> >
> >
> > I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I use
> > my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a parking
> > spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car my
> > awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
> > distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.
> >
> > But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
> > change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
> > and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
> > required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can remain
> > parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue your life as
> > you wish to live it. You might look into prices for armored car
> > pick-ups too.
> >
> Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved by the
> main corporate office.
>
> > You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make it
> > a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do it.
>
> Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that I am
> going to off myself over it.
>
> Ken

I didn't mean you felt THAT bad!

IMO more responsibiities at work should not preclude you from doing
something you like to do outside of work. As new Regional Maneger, you
are no longer allowed to fly radio-controlled airplanes on Sunday. That
is of course an exageration, but the idea is the same.

Joseph

Date: 16 Sep 2006 10:07:12
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Ken C. M. wrote:
::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:::: Ken C. M. wrote:
::::
::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
::::: drive?
:::::
::::: Ken
::::
::::
:::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
:::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
:::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
:::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
:::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
:::: on my bike.
::::
:::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required
:::: to change your behavior outside of work. What if they required
:::: that you and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If
:::: a car is required to make bank drops, they should provide the car.
:::: It can remain parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can
:::: continue your life as you wish to live it. You might look into
:::: prices for armored car pick-ups too.
::::
::: Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved
::: by the main corporate office.
:::
:::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
:::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
:::: don't do it.
:::
::: Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that I am
::: going to off myself over it.
:::
::: Ken
::
:: I didn't mean you felt THAT bad!
::
:: IMO more responsibiities at work should not preclude you from doing
:: something you like to do outside of work. As new Regional Maneger,
:: you are no longer allowed to fly radio-controlled airplanes on
:: Sunday. That is of course an exageration, but the idea is the same.

Dude, you're extreme. Imagine he tells them, "Hey, this job requires me to
drive my car in so I can drop your money at the bank, and that impacts my
life outside of work." What is the reasonable thing for them to do? Get
someone else to do that job that doesn't have that issue (which is almost
everyone else). From what I know of Ken, I'm certain he'll find time to for
his bike. I personally would love to ride to/from work, but it's 40 miles
one way. I'm not going to move to that tiny city just so I can ride to/from
work. I'll just ride at other times.

Date: 16 Sep 2006 00:15:57
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> :: Ken C. M. wrote:
> ::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
> ::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
> ::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if I
> ::: did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to work
> ::: now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to drive?
> :::
> ::: Ken
> ::
> :: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
> :: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
> :: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car
> :: my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
> :: distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.
>
> I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a rationalization by
> someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a car. Not that I disagree
> with your choice to do so, BTW.

The bank box (an armored drawer in the side of the building) is right
across the street from a square where all the junkies hang out. The
parking is tight. So I have to devote my focus to driving my car in a
congested area, fighting for a space, get out of the car, lock it, go
walk to the parking meter down the block some place, walk back to the
car, open it, lean in and put the meter slip in the window, close the
door, lock it, walk over to the drawer and make my drop. All while
keeping eyes open in the back of my head. MUCH easier to just roll up
on my bike to the drawer, make the drop and roll away. I don't even
dismount the bike, just put one foot down.

> ::
> :: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
> :: change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
> :: and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
> :: required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can
> :: remain parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue
> :: your life as you wish to live it. You might look into prices for
> :: armored car pick-ups too.
>
> I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their own cars to
> do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike riding everywhere" hangup?
> Hmm....

It's not like he's a child-laborer in a brick factory in India. I'm
sure his emplyer would actually go pretty far to accomodate his wishes,
if he makes them known.

> ::
> :: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make
> :: it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do
> :: it.
>
> Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".

That is true, but if he is sitting in traffic every day being irritated
about it, it will probably only get worse. No reason to do somethng he
doesn't want to, if he really doesn't want to.

Joseph

Date: 16 Sep 2006 10:01:43
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
:::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
:::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
:::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
:::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
:::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
:::::: drive?
::::::
:::::: Ken
:::::
::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
::::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
::::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
::::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
::::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
::::: on my bike.
:::
::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a
::: car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
::
:: The bank box (an armored drawer in the side of the building) is right
:: across the street from a square where all the junkies hang out. The
:: parking is tight. So I have to devote my focus to driving my car in a
:: congested area, fighting for a space, get out of the car, lock it, go
:: walk to the parking meter down the block some place, walk back to the
:: car, open it, lean in and put the meter slip in the window, close the
:: door, lock it, walk over to the drawer and make my drop. All while
:: keeping eyes open in the back of my head. MUCH easier to just roll up
:: on my bike to the drawer, make the drop and roll away. I don't even
:: dismount the bike, just put one foot down.

So you're comparing WALKING to riding a bike, not to using a car. Come on,
people.

::
::
:::::
::::: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now
::::: required to change your behavior outside of work. What if they
::::: required that you and your wife switched which side of the bed
::::: you use? If a car is required to make bank drops, they should
::::: provide the car. It can remain parked at work, be used as
::::: necessary, and you can continue your life as you wish to live it.
::::: You might look into prices for armored car pick-ups too.
:::
::: I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their own
::: cars to do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike riding
::: everywhere" hangup? Hmm....
::
:: It's not like he's a child-laborer in a brick factory in India. I'm
:: sure his emplyer would actually go pretty far to accomodate his
:: wishes, if he makes them known.

Right. You're very biased in your POV.

::
:::::
::::: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to
::::: make it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad,
::::: don't do it.
:::
::: Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".
::
:: That is true, but if he is sitting in traffic every day being
:: irritated about it, it will probably only get worse. No reason to do
:: somethng he doesn't want to, if he really doesn't want to.

Again, you're very biased.

I'm all for cycling, but this argument your pushing stretches credibility.

Date: 15 Sep 2006 14:28:34
From: gds
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Buck wrote:
>
> Now that you are performing high-risk (according to them) duties using
> your own vehicle (I presume) they should compensate you accordingly.
> Perhaps a company vehicle or mileage to cover your increased costs.
> They should also compensate you for increased costs for commuting as
> well as healthcare. Did they provide a membership to a gym for the lost
> exercise time? Are they compensating your for lost time with family due
> to a shift in your workout schedule?
>
> These are the considerations I would weigh when taking on new
> responsibilities.
>
> -Buck

Everyone makes these calculations, at least implicitly, when
considering a position and all the +'s and -'s associated with it. Your
list is a bit narrow (to my thinking) as it doesn't include such things
as 1) opportunity to learn/grow in the position 2) opportunity to
advance 3) collegiality of the workplace... .

I will say that as an employer for the past 35 years I'd have to be
pretty desparate to hire someone who would ask me for extra
compensation for lost time with the family due to a shift in workout
schedule. Many of the folks I know have put in many weeks of 70+
hours and those of us who have families and like to work out have
figured out how to do that as well. OK TV vegetation may suffer.

Date: 15 Sep 2006 11:14:29
From:
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
> Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
> now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
> company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
> feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
> of guilt when they have to drive?
>
> Ken

I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I use
my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a parking
spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car my
awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can remain
parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue your life as
you wish to live it. You might look into prices for armored car
pick-ups too.

You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make it
a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do it.

Joseph

Date: 15 Sep 2006 15:39:35
From: Ken C. M.
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Ken C. M. wrote:
>
>>Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
>>now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
>>company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
>>feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>>of guilt when they have to drive?
>>
>>Ken
>
>
> I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I use
> my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a parking
> spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car my
> awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
> distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.
>
> But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
> change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
> and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
> required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can remain
> parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue your life as
> you wish to live it. You might look into prices for armored car
> pick-ups too.
>
Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved by the
main corporate office.

> You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make it
> a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do it.

Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that I am
going to off myself over it.

Ken
--
Messengers and mountain bikers share a common chromosome. ~James Bethea

Date: 15 Sep 2006 13:19:58
From: Diablo Scott
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:

> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Ken C. M. wrote:
>>
>>> Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
>>> now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
>>> company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
>>> feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>>> of guilt when they have to drive?
>>>
>>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I use
>> my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a parking
>> spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car my
>> awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
>> distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.
>>
>> But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
>> change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
>> and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
>> required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can remain
>> parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue your life as
>> you wish to live it. You might look into prices for armored car
>> pick-ups too.
>>
> Armored car pick ups would be nice. But not likely to be approved by the
> main corporate office.
>
>> You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make it
>> a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do it.
>
>
> Well I say I feel a little guilty, I don't feel bad enough that I am
> going to off myself over it.
>
> Ken

Do you make these drops after work on the way home to a bank drop box?
Or do you do it during the day inside an open bank branch?

I doubt your employer could provide any evidence that riding is a
greater risk than driving to the bank, but they don't really have to.

I'm 166/178 commutes by bike this calendar year.

Date: 15 Sep 2006 15:07:00
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
:: Ken C. M. wrote:
::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if I
::: did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to work
::: now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to drive?
:::
::: Ken
::
:: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
:: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
:: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car
:: my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
:: distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.

I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a rationalization by
someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a car. Not that I disagree
with your choice to do so, BTW.

::
:: But that doesn't matter. What matters is that you are now required to
:: change your behavior outside of work. What if they required that you
:: and your wife switched which side of the bed you use? If a car is
:: required to make bank drops, they should provide the car. It can
:: remain parked at work, be used as necessary, and you can continue
:: your life as you wish to live it. You might look into prices for
:: armored car pick-ups too.

I wonder how many people would like to have his job, use their own cars to
do the bank drops, and would not have the "bike riding everywhere" hangup?
Hmm....

::
:: You only live once. If your well-being is at stake, you need to make
:: it a priority. If driving really makes you feel that bad, don't do
:: it.

Well, a "little guilty" isn't the same thing as "feel that bad".

Date: 15 Sep 2006 14:08:44
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:07:00 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote, in part:

>joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
>:: Ken C. M. wrote:
>::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
>::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
>::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if I
>::: did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to work
>::: now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to drive?
>:::
>::: Ken
>::
>:: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
>:: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
>:: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the car
>:: my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike. To many
>:: distractions using the car, better situational awareness on my bike.
>
>I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a rationalization by
>someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a car. Not that I disagree
>with your choice to do so, BTW.

I regularly make bank deposits with my bicycle. It's a mundane task.
I don't know that I'd feel more or less safe in a car. I feel least
safe in the line-up awaiting an open wicket. I'm always glad to get
out of a bank without incident.

I can agree that the cyclist generally has greater situational
awareness and I can appreciate that it definitely helps maintain ones
personal security.

I'd think people in the more expensive cars would be most likely to
catch the eye of a thief. Bicycle riders are pretty much under the
radar.
--
zk

Date: 15 Sep 2006 18:27:00
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Zoot Katz wrote:
:: On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:07:00 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote, in part:
::
::: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
:::::: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job
:::::: requirements. I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which
:::::: is considered by the company I work for to be a security risk if
:::::: I did this by bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to
:::::: work now. Any one else have feelings of guilt when they have to
:::::: drive?
::::::
:::::: Ken
:::::
::::: I make bank drops using my bike. I feel safer actually then when I
::::: use my car. Using my car I get distracted because I have to find a
::::: parking spot, go pay at the meter, and getting in and out of the
::::: car my awareness of the surroundings isn't as good as on a bike.
::::: To many distractions using the car, better situational awareness
::::: on my bike.
:::
::: I find this hard to believe, honestly. It sounds like a
::: rationalization by someone who prefers to ride a bike to driving a
::: car. Not that I disagree with your choice to do so, BTW.
::
:: I regularly make bank deposits with my bicycle. It's a mundane task.
:: I don't know that I'd feel more or less safe in a car. I feel least
:: safe in the line-up awaiting an open wicket. I'm always glad to get
:: out of a bank without incident.

If I had large amounts of someone else's money, I'd feel safer in a car.
Period.

::
:: I can agree that the cyclist generally has greater situational
:: awareness and I can appreciate that it definitely helps maintain ones
:: personal security.

I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing you. It
is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to someone in a car.

::
:: I'd think people in the more expensive cars would be most likely to
:: catch the eye of a thief. Bicycle riders are pretty much under the
:: radar.

I don't think it's much of a problem for the typical person driving a car.

Date: 17 Sep 2006 11:59:12
From: Ken C. M.
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Roger Zoul wrote:

> I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing you. It
> is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to someone in a car.
>

Yeah that seems to be the reasoning behind the company policy regarding
deposits made by bike. At least in a car you can use the go pedal to
/go/ in a hurry.

Ken
--
Messengers and mountain bikers share a common chromosome. ~James Bethea

Date: 17 Sep 2006 13:54:44
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: I think "situational awareness" is useless when someone is robbing
::: you. It is too easy to threaten someone on a bike compared to
::: someone in a car.
:::
::
:: Yeah that seems to be the reasoning behind the company policy
:: regarding deposits made by bike. At least in a car you can use the
:: go pedal to /go/ in a hurry.

And....you're in a big heavy metal cage that can slow down someone putting
their hands on the money.

Date: 15 Sep 2006 10:53:53
From: treynolds@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Date: 18 Sep 2006 12:15:41
From: Collin O'Neill
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

treynolds@my-deja.com wrote:
> Ken C. M. wrote:
>> Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
>> now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
>> company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
>> feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>> of guilt when they have to drive?
>>
> Yes I do. When I lived 15 miles from work I would go months without
> motoring to work. When I finally did drive I always felt guilty. Now
> I live 25 miles from work so my bicycle commutes are not as frequent
> (74 work days last year). I feel less guilty, probably just because
> I'm more accustomed to driving.
>
> At the beach here in San Diego we have armed police on bicycle.
> Perhaps your company will let you cycle to the bank while carrying a
> gun. (Just being cynical).
>
> Tom
>
It's legal, though, if you're carrying above a certain value of cash or
jewels and the weapon is properly registered. I can't remember what the
amount is.

Date: 15 Sep 2006 09:37:45
From: Buck
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
> Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
> now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
> company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
> feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
> of guilt when they have to drive?

Now that you are performing high-risk (according to them) duties using
your own vehicle (I presume) they should compensate you accordingly.
Perhaps a company vehicle or mileage to cover your increased costs.
They should also compensate you for increased costs for commuting as
well as healthcare. Did they provide a membership to a gym for the lost
exercise time? Are they compensating your for lost time with family due
to a shift in your workout schedule?

These are the considerations I would weigh when taking on new
responsibilities.

-Buck

Date: 15 Sep 2006 15:35:09
From: Ken C. M.
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Buck wrote:
> Ken C. M. wrote:
>
>>Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
>>now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
>>company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
>>feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>>of guilt when they have to drive?
>
>
> Now that you are performing high-risk (according to them) duties using
> your own vehicle (I presume) they should compensate you accordingly.
> Perhaps a company vehicle or mileage to cover your increased costs.
> They should also compensate you for increased costs for commuting as
> well as healthcare. Did they provide a membership to a gym for the lost
> exercise time? Are they compensating your for lost time with family due
> to a shift in your workout schedule?
>
> These are the considerations I would weigh when taking on new
> responsibilities.

No company vehicle, no mileage comp. but better healthcare plan, no gym
membership, but general increase in salary, no family to lose time with.

I knew when I took the promotion that this day would come eventually but
the overall benefits of the added duties are worth the loss of 50 miles
or so of commute exercise time.

Ken
--
Messengers and mountain bikers share a common chromosome. ~James Bethea

Date: 15 Sep 2006 07:47:29
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. <ken@up-yours-spammer.net > wrote:
> Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements. I
> now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by the
> company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by bicycle. But I
> feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
> of guilt when they have to drive?

Not guilty, just irritated. Driving to and fro work is a drag.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
Them: Is your life organized by the signs of the Zodiac?
Berry: "PULL HANDLE TO INFLATE" and "NO SHARP OBJECTS"? Words to live by.
-- Berry Kercheval in the Monastery

Date: 16 Sep 2006 05:49:49
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Dane Buson wrote:
> Ken C. M. <ken@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
>>But I
>>feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one else have feelings
>>of guilt when they have to drive?

> Not guilty, just irritated. Driving to and fro work is a drag.

This is why when I bought a new car a couple of years ago, I got one
that fit me right (the driver's seat, pedals and steering wheel/shifter
reach fit me like a glove) and was fun to drive (the clutch is nice and
light, the shifter is "snick snick" as the car magazines say, nice
handling and good acceleration and brakes).

And I don't drive during peak rush hour times, so I rarely hit much stop
and go traffic.

While I prefer riding my bike to/from work, I very much enjoy driving my
car too. I know I don't have nearly as much fun driving my wife's
minivan with automatic transmission. It's almost like riding a bike,
but coasting :-).

The minivan's faster off the line in normal driving, mainly because the
automatic is better than I am from a dead stop, and I prefer not to
abuse my car's transmission and tires too much, but the van's more
sluggish in acceleration once moving, and of course the handling isn't
nearly as good.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

Date: 16 Sep 2006 08:49:17
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Victor Kan <victor@usenet.no_uceloopdrive.net > wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
>
>> Not guilty, just irritated. Driving to and fro work is a drag.
>
> This is why when I bought a new car a couple of years ago, I got one
> that fit me right (the driver's seat, pedals and steering wheel/shifter
> reach fit me like a glove) and was fun to drive (the clutch is nice and
> light, the shifter is "snick snick" as the car magazines say, nice
> handling and good acceleration and brakes).

Meh, I've driven nice zippy cars before, and I still don't really like
it. It's sort of enjoyable in the dead of night when I'm just about the
only one driving. But in reality, that only constitutes about 2% of
most peoples driving.

> And I don't drive during peak rush hour times, so I rarely hit much stop
> and go traffic.

I used to hit some stop and go when I did drive to work, but mostly it
was just the act of driving that sucked. Too much imagination and a
good realization of the forces involved. [1] Plus as someone with the
engineers mindset, I think the car is just about the least efficient way
you can transport individual people.

> While I prefer riding my bike to/from work, I very much enjoy driving my
> car too. I know I don't have nearly as much fun driving my wife's
> minivan with automatic transmission. It's almost like riding a bike,
> but coasting :-).

I don't think I really enjoyed driving a car since I was 17 or 18, after
that it was just a way to get from point A to point B.

[1] 2 tons of metal riding about 3 times the speeds we are evolved
to move at, with the reaction and judgement of fallible humans in the
drivers seat.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
You cannot run Windows innocently. Guilt of aiding & abetting, at the very
least, is automatic. Loading up on anti-virus and firewall software, even
decent ones, are merely well-meaning actions to be taken into consideration by
judge and jury when deciding your sentence. -- David P. Murphy from asr

Date: 15 Sep 2006 07:37:35
From: Josh Hassol
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
Any one else have feelings
> of guilt when they have to drive?
>
> Ken

No guilt when I have to drive, just boredom and lethargy

Date: 18 Sep 2006 12:12:22
From: Collin O'Neill
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Josh Hassol wrote:
> Ken C. M. wrote:
> Any one else have feelings
>> of guilt when they have to drive?
>>
>> Ken
>
> No guilt when I have to drive, just boredom and lethargy
>
Second that

Date: 15 Sep 2006 09:48:45
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Seven month car-free streak broken

Ken C. M. wrote:
:: Had to start commuting by car this week due to new job requirements.
:: I now have to make deposits at the bank daily which is considered by
:: the company I work for to be a security risk if I did this by
:: bicycle. But I feel a little guilty not riding to work now. Any one
:: else have feelings of guilt when they have to drive?

No.

:)