Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

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Date: 30 Sep 2007 10:36:09
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.

Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Sheldon "Gambling Is Not Among My Vices" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+

Date: 07 Oct 2007 17:19:52
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andreas Oehler schreib:

> Look at this: The "next best thing"http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
> Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

Yes, that looks like a nice product. I wanted to carry that, but the
manufacturer refuses to sell it in the U.S. due to fear of lawsuits.

Sheldon "Paranoia Strikes Deep" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------+

Date: 07 Oct 2007 16:11:42
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191777592.807493.221860@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> Andreas Oehler schreib:
>
> > Look at this: The "next best
> > thing"http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm Nearly "next" to the Pamir
> > Hypercracker...
>
> Yes, that looks like a nice product. I wanted to carry that, but the
> manufacturer refuses to sell it in the U.S. due to fear of lawsuits.

Lawsuits from whom? Man, that is just so much simpler and more elegant
than the Pamir, which I have, or the Stein. I would love to get one of
those!

Date: 08 Oct 2007 21:09:17
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <1191777592.807493.221860@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>
>> Andreas Oehler schreib:
>>
>>> Look at this: The "next best
>>> thing"http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm Nearly "next" to the Pamir
>>> Hypercracker...
>> Yes, that looks like a nice product. I wanted to carry that, but the
>> manufacturer refuses to sell it in the U.S. due to fear of lawsuits.
>
> Lawsuits from whom? Man, that is just so much simpler and more elegant
> than the Pamir, which I have, or the Stein. I would love to get one of
> those!

An enterprising EU citizen could buy them, and sells to USians on eBay
or other online market.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 04 Oct 2007 20:04:24
From: Anthony King
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 12:36 pm, Sheldon Brown <CaptB...@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:
> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out athttp://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Thanks for posting this, Sheldon. It's nice to get a report from
somebody who separates useful innovation from mere novelty.

Date: 03 Oct 2007 19:09:30
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
> Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
> gave it to him.

Doesn't that make you want to take out a term life insurance policy on
your customer, with you as the beneficiary?

Chalo

Date: 03 Oct 2007 19:25:19
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> A Muzi wrote:
>> Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
>> Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
>> gave it to him.

Chalo wrote:
> Doesn't that make you want to take out a term life insurance policy on
> your customer, with you as the beneficiary?

Not at all. We're helpful about a having good brake. And then sometimes
pushy about it when necessary.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 03 Oct 2007 09:42:24
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 12:36 pm, Sheldon Brown <CaptB...@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:
> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out athttp://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

any idea on the pricing of that Redine r530 Euro-commuter? Can't seem
to find anybody actually selling it.

http://www.redlinebicycles.com/adultbikes/R530.html

Date: 03 Oct 2007 08:00:59
From: Larry Dickman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191173769.158000.269000@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Sheldon, bring back the podcasts! I particular liked your interview with
Grant Peterson and the discussion about "plastic" bikes.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 19:30:55
From: Andrew Martin
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 2, 6:31 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> SMS wrote:
> > jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> >> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> >> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>
> >> Jobst Brandt
>
> > When you don't show up at a major trade show for your industry, it
> > usually means that you're in trouble financially, or you're angry about
> > something to do with the show, i.e. sponsorships.
>
> Oh, I dunno. Shows have gotten to be very expensive and if they don't
> generate much in the way of sales (as opposed to leads), then there
> isn't much point. Trek would have to sell an awful lot of bikes to pay
> for being there.

Trek doesn't need Interbike anymore. Doesn't Apple skip Comdex or
something for the same reason? Trek hosts "Trek World" where they fly
their vendors in for the event. They reach their sales machine there,
in a focused, dedicated environment.

They did however show up at Dirt Demo to let people try out their new
stuff.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 13:01:34
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andrew Martin wrote:
> On Oct 2, 6:31 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>> SMS wrote:
>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
>>>> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>>>> Jobst Brandt
>>> When you don't show up at a major trade show for your industry, it
>>> usually means that you're in trouble financially, or you're angry about
>>> something to do with the show, i.e. sponsorships.
>> Oh, I dunno. Shows have gotten to be very expensive and if they don't
>> generate much in the way of sales (as opposed to leads), then there
>> isn't much point. Trek would have to sell an awful lot of bikes to pay
>> for being there.
>
> Trek doesn't need Interbike anymore. Doesn't Apple skip Comdex or
> something for the same reason?

Everyone skips Comdex now, since it doesn't exist anymore.

Apple skipped it because it was a very PC-centric show, at a time when
Apple had very little to offer, and in fact was in very real danger of
disappearing entirely. All the software and hardware companies at Comdex
were leveraging off the open hardware platform, and the ability to sell
application software to the 98% of the market that ran Microsoft
operating systems. If Comdex re-appeared, Apple would likely go, both
because they can afford it, and because they would want to show that
they were a player in the business space.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 12:27:51
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 2, 9:49 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> > >> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
> SMS wrote:
>
> > > Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> > > being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> > > Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> > > bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> > > justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> > > very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> > > are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.
> A Muzi wrote:
>
> > Wow, that's an odd analysis.
> > You should discuss all that with someone in the bicycle industry, 2007,
> > USA, for a quick reality check.
>
> Sales numbers aside, I'm not surprised SMS could arrive at that idea.
> When I ride around central Austin and get a load of the real bikes
> that are actually being ridden and racked up around town, new Surlys
> greatly outnumber new Treks.
>
> But old road bikes (including goddamned hipster fixies) and vintage
> cruisers-- with signs of recently having been put back into service--
> outnumber them both! Austin is tasteful that way. I've noticed that
> funky old kitchen appliances are fetching higher-than-new prices here,
> too.

Funny you should mention the Surly. I was locking up my bike this
morning and the ride next door was a brand new Surly fixed gear --
oddly enough, with no fenders and what looked like 21mm tires (maybe
they were svelt 23s). Cool but stupid for fall weather. It is the
lone Surly in the rack -- far outnumbered by Trek-owned brands during
the summer months. I don't think Trek is hurting for market share.
BTW, there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of bikes with
the onset of the rainy season. Its the fall shaking-out, and we'll
see what brands show up on a regular basis in the coming wet months.
-- Jay Beattie.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:48:10
From: Scott G.
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 1, 9:39 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>
> Jobst Brandt

Trek has two large dealer only camp meeting/kool aid fests.
One for the big chains and one for the mom & pops.
This years meeting even included commuting from
one meeting hall to another via bicycle.
No point in Interbike for Trek, they do go to Eurobike..

Scott G.

Date: 04 Oct 2007 06:24:13
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> Trek has two large dealer only camp meeting/kool aid fests.
> One for the big chains and one for the mom & pops.
> This years meeting even included commuting from
> one meeting hall to another via bicycle.
> No point in Interbike for Trek, they do go to Eurobike..
>
> Scott G.

Actually three dealer shows. The first is a pre-show for the top-100 dealers
that occurs (or has for the past two years) in early June, when the Trek 100
childhood-cancer benefit ride is run. The other two run adjacent dates in
mid-August, with the first one for the larger 200 dealers or so, and the
second one for the rest.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 02 Oct 2007 16:49:20
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>
> >> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

SMS wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> > being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> > Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> > bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> > justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> > very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> > are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Wow, that's an odd analysis.
> You should discuss all that with someone in the bicycle industry, 2007,
> USA, for a quick reality check.

Sales numbers aside, I'm not surprised SMS could arrive at that idea.
When I ride around central Austin and get a load of the real bikes
that are actually being ridden and racked up around town, new Surlys
greatly outnumber new Treks.

But old road bikes (including goddamned hipster fixies) and vintage
cruisers-- with signs of recently having been put back into service--
outnumber them both! Austin is tasteful that way. I've noticed that
funky old kitchen appliances are fetching higher-than-new prices here,
too.

Chalo

Date: 02 Oct 2007 10:08:27
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Chalo wrote:

> Sales numbers aside, I'm not surprised SMS could arrive at that idea.
> When I ride around central Austin and get a load of the real bikes
> that are actually being ridden and racked up around town, new Surlys
> greatly outnumber new Treks.

It's not just sales numbers, it's sales growth in terms of both units
and revenue. Trek themselves have admitted that sales are flat, and that
part of the reason for the introduction of bicycles like the Lime are to
try to increase volumes in new segments.

The value of going to Interbike, when you probably are not trying to add
any more new dealers, may be seen as marginal since few end-users
attend. However the press does attend en-masse, including the web-based
press. Getting the press giving your products reviews is worth a lot of
money, if you have new products that you think they'll go ga-ga over.
Feed and water the reporters and webmasters at allegedly exclusive
parties and you can generate some good stories. Not attending your own
industry's major trade show gets the rumor mills started. I passed on
Interbike this year due to other stuff I had to do, but it's always a
fun show to attend. Certainly more interesting than Comdex was.

Surly is one of the new darlings, along with Jamis & Marin. Eventually
Surly, Jamis, Marin, etc., will become like Trek and Cannodale, and some
other companies will displace them.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 16:43:22
From: Scott Gordo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 1, 10:28 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Oct 1, 9:00 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ozark Bicycle snipes:
>
> > >>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
> > >>> Jobst Brandt
> > >> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
> > >> are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
> > >> Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
> > >> brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
> > >> couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
> > >> since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
> > >> it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
> > >> marketing.
> > > More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
> > > Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
>
> > Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> > who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>
> None of those are suppliers of bicycles to end users, are they?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Right. It's simple cost/benefit analysis. The money they'd spend at
the show, displaying bikes to a small, jaded audience, would buy how
many magazine and/or web advertisements to be seen by how many people
with disposeable income who might actually walk into Ozark Bicycles?

With all that said, it seems (from what I've read) that they've
suddenly realized that Lance isn't going to win another Tour for them,
so they've 'revamped' their line. You'd think that this would be a
good year to show off the new Madone and all that. On the other hand,
going back to my original point, is there anyone in this thread who
didn't know that the Madone had been redone (even if you're not
particularly interested in one)? How did you find out? It wasn't
through attending a trade show, was it?

/s

Date: 01 Oct 2007 19:28:45
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 1, 9:00 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle snipes:
>
> >>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
> >>> Jobst Brandt
> >> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
> >> are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
> >> Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
> >> brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
> >> couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
> >> since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
> >> it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
> >> marketing.
> > More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
> > Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
>
> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>

None of those are suppliers of bicycles to end users, are they?

Date: 01 Oct 2007 18:55:23
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 1, 8:46 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>
> > Jobst Brandt
>
> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
Interbike serves no real purpose for them.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:08:21
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.

Gold star for Ozark today.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Oct 2007 06:04:31
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.
>
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
>> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
>
> Gold star for Ozark today.

I would love to also believe that it's a response to a trade show held in a
city that doesn't give a rat's tail about bicycles, and quite a number of
dealers who are simply tired of a city which has the slogan "What goes here,
stays here" and, despite claiming they're trying to clean up their image,
still allow kids to pass out porn tracts at every street corner. I would
love to believe that, but it's probably not true.

Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers who
would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for the
people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another city
would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion, would
probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry that
bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of proportion
to the industry's size.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:13g4r5b57eah0ba@corp.supernews.com...
>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>
>> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.
>
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
>> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
>
> Gold star for Ozark today.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

Date: 04 Oct 2007 20:22:48
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> ...
> I would love to also believe that it's a response to a trade show held in a
> city that doesn't give a rat's tail about bicycles, and quite a number of
> dealers who are simply tired of a city which has the slogan "What goes here,
> stays here" and, despite claiming they're trying to clean up their image,
> still allow kids to pass out porn tracts at every street corner....

What is wrong with the latter?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 04 Oct 2007 14:55:49
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers who
> would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for the
> people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another city
> would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion, would
> probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry that
> bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of proportion
> to the industry's size.

As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are astronomical.

Date: 04 Oct 2007 16:56:57
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
> shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
> cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
> Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
> rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
> Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
> astronomical.

Anaheim actually does have the combo of convention space & hotel rooms
required, but it's amazing how passionately those from outside California
detest it. It comes up in discussions and gets knocked out of the running
very quickly. Perhaps being from California, you & I are somewhat
anaesthetized to whatever it is they find so objectionable. And perhaps
because it's *Southern* California, people like myself are reluctant to come
to its defense.

The cities that could run the trade show are, as you say, relatively few.
One name that comes up frequently is Salt Lake City. They've got the
convention space, and they have the hotel rooms. The problem is that the
hotel rooms are spread out over a fairly wide area, unlike Las Vegas.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:4705610c$0$79911$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers
>> who would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for
>> the people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another
>> city would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion,
>> would probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry
>> that bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of
>> proportion to the industry's size.
>
> As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
> shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
> cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
> Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
> rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
> Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
> astronomical.

Date: 04 Oct 2007 19:21:48
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers
>>> who would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for
>>> the people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another
>>> city would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion,
>>> would probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry
>>> that bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of
>>> proportion to the industry's size.

> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>> As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
>> shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
>> cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
>> Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
>> rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
>> Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
>> astronomical.

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Anaheim actually does have the combo of convention space & hotel rooms
> required, but it's amazing how passionately those from outside California
> detest it. It comes up in discussions and gets knocked out of the running
> very quickly. Perhaps being from California, you & I are somewhat
> anaesthetized to whatever it is they find so objectionable. And perhaps
> because it's *Southern* California, people like myself are reluctant to come
> to its defense.
> The cities that could run the trade show are, as you say, relatively few.
> One name that comes up frequently is Salt Lake City. They've got the
> convention space, and they have the hotel rooms. The problem is that the
> hotel rooms are spread out over a fairly wide area, unlike Las Vegas.

I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go, there's
NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*.

I liked Anaheim much more than LV but then again I haven't attended in
ten years. What ever could one not like about Anaheim??? Pretty much
inoffensive in my book.

Mike, I believe it was you earlier who noted that the Trade Show
business is not the Bicycle Business.

*I start my week with Metropolitan Diary on Mondays.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Oct 2007 20:30:53
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andrew Muzi mused:
> ...
> I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go, there's
> NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*....

I would rather go to Hell [1] than live in New York City. Less crowding,
noise, crime and pollution, and much better roads to cycle on.

[1]
<http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=hell&state=mi&zipcode= >.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 05 Oct 2007 00:48:59
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> Andrew Muzi mused:
>> ...
>> I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go,
>> there's NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*....

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> I would rather go to Hell [1] than live in New York City. Less crowding,
> noise, crime and pollution, and much better roads to cycle on.
> [1]
> <http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=hell&state=mi&zipcode=>.

Hell's nice but it ain't New York.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Oct 2007 14:27:08
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <Pn%Mi.5820$6p6.330@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:

> >>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> >>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> >>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> >>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> >>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> >>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> >>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.
> >
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
> >> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
> >
> > Gold star for Ozark today.
>
> I would love to also believe that it's a response to a trade show held in a
> city that doesn't give a rat's tail about bicycles, and quite a number of
> dealers who are simply tired of a city which has the slogan "What goes here,
> stays here" and, despite claiming they're trying to clean up their image,
> still allow kids to pass out porn tracts at every street corner. I would
> love to believe that, but it's probably not true.
>
> Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers who
> would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for the
> people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another city
> would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion, would
> probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry that
> bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of proportion
> to the industry's size.

The biggest problem is probably that for very large trade shows, Vegas
may be one of the few cities on the planet with the facilities to
accommodate them. Basically, it's an entire city's worth of hotel rooms
and exhibition spaces.

You could probably do Interbike in LA still, but it would be harder, and
probably more expensive. The trick of bringing bike races to Vegas to
coincide with the show was a good one: the CX race seemed quite popular!

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 02 Oct 2007 02:00:42
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Ozark Bicycle snipes:

>>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

>>> Jobst Brandt

>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
>> are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
>> Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
>> brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
>> couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
>> since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
>> it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
>> marketing.

> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.

Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 04 Oct 2007 05:57:56
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
>>> are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
>>> Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
>>> brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
>>> couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
>>> since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
>>> it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
>>> marketing.
>
>> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
>> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.
>
> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>
> Jobst Brandt

From someone else that remark would be no big deal, but it's not as if
you're unaware how the industry works and haven't been attending Interbike
trade shows for some time. Trek pulled out of Interbike a number of years
ago, and there was plenty of press coverage of it at the time. Nothing's
changed since. But if you need a brief refresher of the history of Interbike
and Trek-

Trek puts on the largest separate dealer show of their own of any of the
bicycle companies, taking place over 5 days in Madison, Wisconsin, not far
(about 35 miles) from Trek's factory.

Trek decided that it was more important to create a show which would
actually show the new wares when they were coming out (or slightly ahead)
rather than wait for Interbike, which occurs well after the new product
cycle has commenced. It can be argued that it's really dumb to have the
model year change in June, and I'd be on the side that agrees that it's
dumb, but we lost that battle some time ago. Meantime, Trek can bring back
dealers to a huge show, without Vegas-style distractions, and take advantage
of a relatively-captive audience.

There's only so much $$$ to go around, and funds used for marketing are
funds not available for R&D or anything else. If it's essential (which Trek
feels it is) to have a separate show just for their dealers, due to the size
and complexity of their offerings, then you have to figure out whether you
can spare the time & funds to attend Interbike as well. The plus side to
attending Interbike is that you get exposure to more than just a small
number of staff, assuming you can afford to fly in a bunch of people (as we
did). And many feel that there's some sort of thing going on where, if you
don't attend Interbike, you're somehow not supporting the bike business.

In any event, neither Mavic, nor Shimano, nor Campagnolo, nor Park Tools,
nor Cliff Bar would have anything to gain from a separate show, and only
Shimano would possibly have the resources to pull something like that off.
Those companies don't require tons of floor space to achieve their sales
goals, nor integrated marketing strategies (although Shimano works on that).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:10:32
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

sms
>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
>>> are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
>>> Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
>>> brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
>>> couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
>>> since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
>>> it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
>>> marketing.

> Ozark Bicycle snipes:
>> More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
>> Interbike serves no real purpose for them.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.

Trek is much larger than all but Shimano who is there for reasons which
do not apply to Trek.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 21:51:14
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>
> Jobst Brandt

When you don't show up at a major trade show for your industry, it
usually means that you're in trouble financially, or you're angry about
something to do with the show, i.e. sponsorships.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 09:31:19
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
>> who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> When you don't show up at a major trade show for your industry, it
> usually means that you're in trouble financially, or you're angry about
> something to do with the show, i.e. sponsorships.

Oh, I dunno. Shows have gotten to be very expensive and if they don't
generate much in the way of sales (as opposed to leads), then there
isn't much point. Trek would have to sell an awful lot of bikes to pay
for being there.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 20:48:50
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article
<1191173769.158000.269000@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com >
,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007
>
> Sheldon "Gambling Is Not Among My Vices" Brown

Reading it now and enjoying it. Note that the
coating on the E.A.I. sprockets is
_titanium_ nitride.

--
Michael Press

Date: 01 Oct 2007 16:08:10
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007
>> Sheldon "Gambling Is Not Among My Vices" Brown

Michael Press wrote:
> Reading it now and enjoying it. Note that the
> coating on the E.A.I. sprockets is
> _titanium_ nitride.

We've had the EAI SuperStar track cogs since June. Lots of 'lookers'.
But then again TiN is sexy looking stuff:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/NITRIDE.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 13:09:46
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> >>I went to my LBS the other day and I
> >> had to wait. While I was waiting I looked around and I don't think I
> >> saw a single bike in there that wasn't a Giant and they had at least
> >> 150 bikes on the floor jammed in tight.
>
> Then I don't know why this a Giant shop.

They may have just received a very large order of Giants. I
understand that happened to our shop while I was in Sin City.

Then again, the retail bike biz, at least in Northern climes, is
heavily dependent on "dating" where the shop gets the bikes in the
fall or winter, but doesn't have to pay for the 'til summertime.
Saves the importer/distributor from having to keep a huge inventory
for a highly seasonal business. Many shops could not be viable
without this.

That shop may just have a good "dating" program with Giant.

> I can special order any part I
> want, so I guess I could special order a different brand bike, too.

Nope, same as you can't order a Chevy from a Ford dealer. There are
territoriality and exclusivity agreements between the distributors and
their dealers.

Sheldon "Bike Biz" Brown
+---------------------------------------+

Date: 01 Oct 2007 11:54:12
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 9:20 pm, Bob C <patnbob@unwired > wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> >> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> >>> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
> >> The Unior Tools look interesting. Check out this Pocket spoke and
> >> freewheel remover wrench in one. I'm a sucker for multi-tasking tools.http://www.uniortools.com/cgi-bin/cms.cgi?doc=10780&prod=44729&si...
> >> -or-http://tinyurl.com/2etboh
>
> > Yes, I reported on that one last year. http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> > We sell a lot of these:http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/cassette.html
>
> > It's not a freewheel remover, though, only works for cassettes. See:
> >http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7if you are unsure of the difference.
>
> > Sheldon "Old News" Brown
> > +--------------------------------------------------------------+
> >

Date: 04 Oct 2007 23:18:45
From: Andreas Oehler
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:54:12 -0700, Hank Wirtz:

>I've got the Stein tool, which is a little more fiddly, but worked
>well the one time I used it. I'd rather have the old-skool
>Hypercracker than either of those, though. Its lever end was quite a
>bit longer, which in my mind is probably safer on the dropout (If it
>isn't, one of the engineers/physicists/former metallurgists here can
>feel free to correct me). Too bad it's no longer made.

Look at this: The "next best thing" http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

Andreas

Date: 05 Oct 2007 13:41:36
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:18:45 +0200, Andreas Oehler wrote:

> Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:54:12 -0700, Hank Wirtz:
>
>>I've got the Stein tool, which is a little more fiddly, but worked
>>well the one time I used it. I'd rather have the old-skool
>>Hypercracker than either of those, though. Its lever end was quite a
>>bit longer, which in my mind is probably safer on the dropout (If it
>>isn't, one of the engineers/physicists/former metallurgists here can
>>feel free to correct me). Too bad it's no longer made.
>
> Look at this: The "next best thing" http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
> Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

...the only tool I'll never lend to anyone!

Matt O.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 17:24:11
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 4:54 pm, blisterlester <wwill...@attbi.com > wrote:
> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

Fancy business hotels figure that you'll expense it,
or just that the extra cost is not significant to you.
However, most of these (except in Vegas, I guess) do
put a little coffee machine in the room. Cheaper
places tend to offer free internet and free crappy
bagels in the morning, which the expensive ones don't.

Robert Frank's explanation has to do with marginal
costs (the marginal cost of giving any one guest wifi
is small once they've installed the system), which
explains why cheap hotels can give you free access
even though expensive ones don't, but doesn't explain
the difference in the free crappy bagels.

Ben

Date: 01 Oct 2007 11:45:09
From: blisterlester
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Sep 30, 4:54 pm, blisterlester <wwill...@attbi.com> wrote:
>> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
>> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.
>
> Fancy business hotels figure that you'll expense it,
> or just that the extra cost is not significant to you.

[snip]

Even when I am "expensed" it bugs me to be nickel and dimed at a place
like the Hyatt. Sometimes I even call the "If there's anything we can
do to make your stay more enjoyable" person and complain - never helps,
of course. I'm often more comfortable (speaking only of the hotel) when
I'm stuck in a Comfort Inn in a tiny burg.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 02:16:34
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Date: 01 Oct 2007 18:02:33
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

blisterlester wrote:

> Even when I am "expensed" it bugs me to be nickel and dimed at a place
> like the Hyatt. Sometimes I even call the "If there's anything we can
> do to make your stay more enjoyable" person and complain - never helps,
> of course. I'm often more comfortable (speaking only of the hotel) when
> I'm stuck in a Comfort Inn in a tiny burg.

The problem with Las Vegas is that those types of hotels are so far from
the convention center, and driving and parking is rather a pain in the
butt when the big conventions are in town. I'm perfectly happy at a La
Quinta or other such place in most locales, but Las Vegas is the exception.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 19:54:14
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

blisterlester wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> On Sep 30, 4:54 pm, blisterlester <wwill...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
>>> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.
>>
>> Fancy business hotels figure that you'll expense it,
>> or just that the extra cost is not significant to you.
>
> [snip]
>
> Even when I am "expensed" it bugs me to be nickel and dimed at a place
> like the Hyatt. Sometimes I even call the "If there's anything we can
> do to make your stay more enjoyable" person and complain - never helps,
> of course. I'm often more comfortable (speaking only of the hotel) when
> I'm stuck in a Comfort Inn in a tiny burg.

I would hate to stay at any place where people wait on me. I can carry
my own damn luggage in, thank you. As long as the place is clean, it is
good enough for me. Motel 6 is more than adequate.

The best deal I ever got was the U.S. Grant motel in Mattoon, Illinois
in 1998. Old but clean, for $20/night.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 01 Oct 2007 09:14:54
From: TomYoung
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 4:54 pm, blisterlester <wwill...@attbi.com > wrote:
> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

You have to remember that this is Las Vegas. No coffee in the room
(SOP in Vegas) means you leave your room to get it which means you'll
probably, at the very least, drop some loose change in the machines on
your way from and back to your room on your coffee run. They also
don't want you sitting in your room surfing the Internet when your
butt should be comfortably ensconced on a stool at a blackjack table.

Tom Young

Date: 04 Oct 2007 06:31:12
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
>> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.
>
> You have to remember that this is Las Vegas. No coffee in the room
> (SOP in Vegas) means you leave your room to get it which means you'll
> probably, at the very least, drop some loose change in the machines on
> your way from and back to your room on your coffee run.

You haven't been to Las Vegas lately, have you? No more coin-operated slot
machines. Not in the airport, not in the casinos I walked through. Spare
quarters are useless, and no sound of coins hitting the tray at the bottom
anymore. The machines have been retooled to take credit cards and bills ($1,
$5, $20). There are machines that are supposedly nickel, quarter and even
penny machines (which generally disappeared some time ago). But you feed
bills into them, not coins, and then choose whatever amount you want to bet
electronically.

I normally blow two quarter rolls each trip ($20). This time, the best I
could muster, and very reluctantly, was $3. It just seems stupid feeding
dollar bills into something that's not going to give you anything back.
Don't ask me why it's more "fun" or whatever with quarters. It just is.

I'm sure they've done studies that show, when people run out of money in
their wallet, they're more likely to start feeding the machine their credit
card than they would have if they'd been using coins.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 01 Oct 2007 10:03:08
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

TomYoung wrote:
> On Sep 30, 4:54 pm, blisterlester <wwill...@attbi.com> wrote:
>> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
>> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.
>
> You have to remember that this is Las Vegas. No coffee in the room
> (SOP in Vegas) means you leave your room to get it which means you'll
> probably, at the very least, drop some loose change in the machines on
> your way from and back to your room on your coffee run. They also
> don't want you sitting in your room surfing the Internet when your
> butt should be comfortably ensconced on a stool at a blackjack table.

I can't stand being in the casinos in Las Vegas because of the smoke.
Apparently some hotel tried a non-smoking casino once, but it was a
failure. Gamblers tend to be smokers.

Interbike seems to be similar to Comdex in that the participants are not
big drinkers, big gamblers, or smokers. G-d forbid everyone rode a
bicycle from their hotel to the Sands. I once brought a folding bicycle
to Comdex, and it was tremendously convenient to not have to use the
taxis or shuttle buses. Now there is a monorail which does make it easier.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 19:46:36
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> ...
> I can't stand being in the casinos in Las Vegas because of the smoke.
> Apparently some hotel tried a non-smoking casino once, but it was a
> failure. Gamblers tend to be smokers....

This is one of the reasons I like gatherings of cyclists - almost none
smoke. Damn Jean Nicot!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 01 Oct 2007 09:11:14
From: Andrew Martin
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 10:22 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1191189417.688845.129...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> Sheldon Brown <CaptB...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau a ?crit:
>
> > > My personal theory is that the Great Missing Bicycle for sports use is a
> > > cyclocross bike based around an Alfine 8-speed hub. My reasoning is that
> > > those bikes are desperately vulnerable to mud-clogged transmissions, and
> > > a lot of pros already run a single front ring.
>
> > Great minds...See:http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8
>
> > Sheldon "Been There, Done That, Sold Lots" Brown
>
> Ingenious! What's the finished weight of that bike? Have you built up
> any using the new Alfine hubs, or are they the same as Nexus Red Band?
> Am I right in guessing that the finished price is somewhere around $1000?
>
> Tempted, despite the fact I'm about to buy another laptop,
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

I'm just waiting for my On-One Pompino frame to show up at my LBS and
I'll have that setup as well. I'm running it with 135 rear spacing,
and Surly hubs for flip flop single/fixed riding. I'll make it a
travel bike with a Nexus hub a little later.

Thanks to Sheldon for his wheel building page - I built my first two
wheels last night and they look pretty good!

Date: 01 Oct 2007 15:01:23
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Oct 1, 9:03 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> In article <011020071003006641%lucasirag...@rogers.com>, Luke
>
> <lucasirag...@rogers.com> wrote:
> > In article <fdqt73$ls...@news.datemas.de>, vey <jun...@ericvey.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > Then we
> > > > add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
>
> > > Where do you get fenders and racks for a total of $20?
>
> > In Canada:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/yr5cvl
>
> Well, fenders anyway.

I got both front and rear rack at Nashbar a month ago for ~$10 each.
Nice sturdy three strut rear with a 55# capacity. Had some fenders
hanging in the garage, so $20 total. :-P

Reality is that a set of fenders and a rack at most LBS's is going to
be at least $60. They gotta pay the light bill.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 03:01:09
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191250883.566568.267740@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Oct 1, 9:03 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com> wrote:
> > In article <011020071003006641%lucasirag...@rogers.com>, Luke
> >
> > <lucasirag...@rogers.com> wrote:
> > > In article <fdqt73$ls...@news.datemas.de>, vey <jun...@ericvey.com>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > > Then we
> > > > > add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
> >
> > > > Where do you get fenders and racks for a total of $20?
> >
> > > In Canada:
> >
> > >http://tinyurl.com/yr5cvl
> >
> > Well, fenders anyway.
>
> I got both front and rear rack at Nashbar a month ago for ~$10 each.
> Nice sturdy three strut rear with a 55# capacity. Had some fenders
> hanging in the garage, so $20 total. :-P
>
> Reality is that a set of fenders and a rack at most LBS's is going to
> be at least $60. They gotta pay the light bill.

Heh. That's true.

I have to admit, I bought my current commuter at a garage sale for $20
because the bearings all fell out of the freewheel while I was looking
at it. Miyata 210, their entry-level tourer. It already had a rack, and
I may have pulled the fenders off my previous commuter bike (a Japanese
Bianchi that had turned into a CX bike for a while). Even the brake pads
were already Scott-Malthauser iron oxide pads, and I haven't changed
both of them quite yet. I had a spare freewheel in my pile, of course,
because those things accumulate faster than they wear out. I was so
cheap I didn't even bother to buy a 6 or 7-speed freewheel, which might
have had hyperglide; the freewheel is just some 5-speed without any fun
ramps. It works.

So arguably I had the original cost of the fenders into the bike. The
freewheel probably came off the first "good" bike I ever owned, a rigid
MTB that was bought in my early teens (before I started my "growth"
spurt: 4'9" to 5'6"!).

Shortly after I started using it, the cloth bar tape started coming
apart, so I replaced it. I got a deal on the bar tape: $6 for nice
fake-cork tape with reflective striping.

Rear racks seem to arrive with about half the bikes I find/buy: I have
one or two mouldering in The Pile. Unless I want a really pretty one,
I'll never need to buy another.

When I buy a typical garage-sale bike, I assume that I will need to add
a rack, a set of fenders, and I accept that the brake pads are likely to
need replacement soon. Tires are a frequent necessity, most often
because the sidewalls fail in the first year of the bike's reincarnation.

Because I like Kool-Stop salmon pads, I have ridden bikes that were
purchased for a fraction of the cost of their brake pads. The all-time
record has to be a Motobecane, bought as part of a 3/$10 bike deal,
which at one point was set up as a cyclocross bike. It briefly had an
"optimized" Shimano stem--like Jobst, I made it threadless--about $40
worth of bar and stem, mixed Sora-Ace brifters, and a steel cyclocross
fork acquired in trade for its original Ideale 80 leather saddle.

Oh yeah, but the Japanese Bianchi, my next cyclocross bike, got most of
those parts, then I added a carbon fibre external-bearing crankset,
acquired for $120 on closeout.

My current cyclocross bike took the crankset and bar/stem from the
Bianchi, a set of LX brakes donated by a friend, and a set of 105-9
speed brifters driving through a Tiagra fder and a Dura-Ace 9 rder. I'm
thinking seriously of replacing the drivetrain with all Record-9,
because that's how I roll.

Kidding! Because I might be able to get it cheaply.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 30 Sep 2007 21:01:27
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> The Unior Tools look interesting. Check out this Pocket spoke and
> freewheel remover wrench in one. I'm a sucker for multi-tasking tools.http://www.uniortools.com/cgi-bin/cms.cgi?doc=10780&prod=44729&si...
> -or-http://tinyurl.com/2etboh

Yes, I reported on that one last year. http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

We sell a lot of these: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/cassette.html

It's not a freewheel remover, though, only works for cassettes. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7 if you are unsure of the difference.

Sheldon "Old News" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+

Date: 01 Oct 2007 14:20:02
From: Bob C
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>> The Unior Tools look interesting. Check out this Pocket spoke and
>> freewheel remover wrench in one. I'm a sucker for multi-tasking tools.http://www.uniortools.com/cgi-bin/cms.cgi?doc=10780&prod=44729&si...
>> -or-http://tinyurl.com/2etboh
>
> Yes, I reported on that one last year. http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> We sell a lot of these: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/cassette.html
>
> It's not a freewheel remover, though, only works for cassettes. See:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7 if you are unsure of the difference.
>
> Sheldon "Old News" Brown
> +--------------------------------------------------------------+
>

Date: 01 Oct 2007 03:38:39
From: autopi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> Yes, at least the Newsboy was nuovo-retro, semi-sheeny Ti. The money
> burners seemed to like that. If I were going to get a cost-no-object
> commuter with lots of Bohemian chic, it would be this one:http://www.vanillabicycles.com(click the commuter tab). But again, I
> never needed a super-special commuter, and if I bought one of Sacha's
> wonder bikes, I'd want to put it in a glass case and not thrash it
> throught the swamps in PDX during the fall, winter and spring. -- Jay
> Beattie.

that's how i feel too. there's no shortage of used bikes on craigslist
for less than $200--i got my old fuji for $35, put a rear rack,
fenders and a bag for my books, and have been riding it happily for
several years. for a bike that's actually going to get locked up to
poles in high-risk areas, banged around, ridden on crappy streets, in
bad weather, sometimes left out overnight, etc., it seems the
reasonable thing is to just get a cheap used bike and wear it out.
then get another one. etc..

you could get a really nice bike to commute on, but why bother? then
you have to worry about it getting stolen or beat up all the time.

(my favorite are the people who apparently get nice frames/bikes and
then disguise/uglify them to discourage theft...somehow, that seems
self-defeating.)

Date: 01 Oct 2007 03:37:51
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 9:15 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>
> > I saw the Weekend Journal coverage of new $5000+ bikes, carefully
> > designed by respraying a $900 bike and calling it 'limited edition'.
> > Hmmmmm.
> > Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to drink
> > the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess I'll
> > stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?
>
> It's enough to make me stay in the used market forever. Besides, why do
> they call a flatbar bike a commuter bike? If you want to get from point
> "A" to point "B", then you don't want any sort of MTB anything. Over the
> age of 40 and it kills your back.

Flat bars are just dandy for under twenty miles. Trick is to saw them
down a cm or two on each end, as they're usually crazy wide.(just
don't saw them hipster narrow, you jokesters) I like them for city
bikes as you get great bike control, as the expense of a bit of
comfort. For casual city riding or if you're in Europe, get some North
Road style bars of course. Off road, I'm a moustache bar convert for
my smooth fire roads, and of course, real distance riding requires
real multi position bars like drops or butterfly bars.

Flats as an alternative for "fitness" type riding is indeed absurd if
the rider is going for distance--flat bar road bikes are pretty silly
as well, because in those situations, all ya really need is a drop bar
at the right height.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 20:26:17
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 6:27 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > Jay Beattie wrote:
> >> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
> >> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
> >> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
> >> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.
> vey wrote:
> > So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a
> > lot of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
> > bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make much
> > sense to a bystander.
>
> I thought Jay meant that for that kind of money it oughta be flashy.

Yes, at least the Newsboy was nuovo-retro, semi-sheeny Ti. The money
burners seemed to like that. If I were going to get a cost-no-object
commuter with lots of Bohemian chic, it would be this one:
http://www.vanillabicycles.com (click the commuter tab). But again, I
never needed a super-special commuter, and if I bought one of Sacha's
wonder bikes, I'd want to put it in a glass case and not thrash it
throught the swamps in PDX during the fall, winter and spring. -- Jay
Beattie.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 18:04:36
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sep 30, 3:47 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > The Civia frame, with all those
> > molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
> > like it would be a sweet commuter.
>
> It's a nice-looking frame, but boy does it carry a heavy tariff for
> those neat cable guides. $1900 for the single speed complete bike!
> I'm sure some of the seemingly unnecessary expense is for the Alfine
> parts, but wow.
>
> Cycle commuters are pragmatic folk. It's one thing to sell a $2000-
> $3000 bike to a fashion-seeking tool for use as a plaything, but a
> transportational bike is a value-driven purchase. I think that Surly
> serves the _high_ end of that market, but QBP evidently thinks it's
> the low end. I wish them luck, but I predict an indifferent market
> reception.

I looked at the Civia web-page and thought the bike was butt ugly --
at least in that turd brown color. I suppose a swanky single-speed
commuter might appeal to the same set who bought the Merlin Newsboy
(whoever they may be), but the Civia is not nearly swanky enough IMO.
If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
have never needed a super-special commuting bike. A good solid bike
with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 21:14:05
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Jay Beattie wrote:

> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.

So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a
lot of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make much
sense to a bystander.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 20:27:38
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
>> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
>> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
>> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.

vey wrote:
> So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a
> lot of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
> bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make much
> sense to a bystander.

I thought Jay meant that for that kind of money it oughta be flashy.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 07:44:36
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:13g0j5rln3jah5c@corp.supernews.com...
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
>>> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
>>> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
>>> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> vey wrote:
>> So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a lot
>> of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
>> bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make much
>> sense to a bystander.
>
> I thought Jay meant that for that kind of money it oughta be flashy.
>
If not flashy, at least classy. Breezer has that figured out. That classic
Schwinn-style paint job is very nice, indeed.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 21:32:22
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi wrote:
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
>>> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
>>> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
>>> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> vey wrote:
>> So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a
>> lot of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
>> bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make much
>> sense to a bystander.
>
> I thought Jay meant that for that kind of money it oughta be flashy.

Why are all these companies charging so much?

Date: 30 Sep 2007 21:05:58
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>> If it is trying to appeal to real commuters, forget it. Personally, I
>>>> have never needed r-a supespecial commuting bike. A good solid bike
>>>> with right-sized tires, fenders, lights and a good can of spray lube
>>>> has always been enough. -- Jay Beattie.

>> vey wrote:
>>> So you complain about the color? I can understand complaining about a
>>> lot of other things, but if all you need is, "A good solid bike" then
>>> bitching about it being "butt ugly" and "turd brown" doesn't make
>>> much sense to a bystander.

> A Muzi wrote:
>> I thought Jay meant that for that kind of money it oughta be flashy.

vey wrote:
> Why are all these companies charging so much?

I saw the Weekend Journal coverage of new $5000+ bikes, carefully
designed by respraying a $900 bike and calling it 'limited edition'.
Hmmmmm.
Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to drink
the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess I'll
stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 13:00:19
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi wrote:
>
> I saw the Weekend Journal coverage of new $5000+ bikes, carefully
> designed by respraying a $900 bike and calling it 'limited edition'.
> Hmmmmm.
> Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to
> drink the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess
> I'll stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?

(Weekend Journal is part of the Wall St. Journal)
This article was almost a parody. Here's a couple of excerpts:

"The "Colnago For Ferrari 60th" commemorates the automaker's anniversary
with two racing bikes in signature colors and insignia. Available only
through Ferrari dealerships and official Colnago stores, the bicycles are
built-to-measure and take between 14 to 16 weeks to arrive. The F60 Fulcrum
Racing Zero bike costs approximately $13,000; only 199 will be sold
worldwide. The F60 Lightweight edition runs about $15,000; only 60 will be
sold worldwide."

"The 2008 City Storm designed by British furniture and interior designer
Michael Young retails for $1,300. Components were chosen based on aesthetics
rather than ride [SAY WHAT?]. Although the shipments won't arrive until
January, manufacturer Giant Bicycle's City Storms are already completely
sold out."

Here's the link, but remember WSJ is a paid site:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119092693639341667.html
Wow. That's my dream commuter. A bike designed by an interior designer, with
components chosen based on aesthetics rather than ride. But there's more.

""We're totally changing our mindset here," says Tim Rutledge, a marketing
manager for Seattle Bike Supply, a distributor of brands like Redline and
Torker. Mr. Rutledge says that until this year, his company's most-expensive
bike was $1,500. This year, the company did a limited edition of its 2008
Redline Team Cyclo-Cross bike, making fewer than 80 and selling them for
$2,500. They quickly sold out, prompting the company to plan a 2009 version
and to make 200 of the bikes for $2,700 apiece. The company will also have a
limited edition LaPierre Tour Replica bike, making 50 to 100 for $5,300
each. "The sky's the limit now," Mr. Rutledge says."

Date: 01 Oct 2007 10:01:03
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <Db6Mi.18$lD6.14@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net >, Mike Kruger
<MikeKr@mouse-potato.com > wrote:

> Here's the link, but remember WSJ is a paid site:
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119092693639341667.html

Here's a surprising fact[?] from the above article:
[quote]

"It's no longer enough to have the best bicycle on the block. Now you
have to have the best fleet.

Facing a declining number of riders and increasing competition from
boutique makers offering $10,000 custom-built rides...

...The number of people riding bicycles fell 8.7% to 35.6 million
between 2001 and 2006, according to the National Sporting Goods
Association. Still, makers were able to keep up sales during that
period, with units sold up 16%, dollar sales up 33% and the average
sales price 26% higher at $297, according to the Bicycle Products
Suppliers Association."

[/quote]

I was of the opinion that ridership was increasing in North America.
Certainly that's what a casual glance round here (Toronto) leads one to
believe.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 02:07:41
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Luke wrote:
> In article <Db6Mi.18$lD6.14@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>, Mike Kruger
> <MikeKr@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's the link, but remember WSJ is a paid site:
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119092693639341667.html
>
> Here's a surprising fact[?] from the above article:
> [quote]
>
> "It's no longer enough to have the best bicycle on the block. Now you
> have to have the best fleet.
>
> Facing a declining number of riders and increasing competition from
> boutique makers offering $10,000 custom-built rides...
>
> ...The number of people riding bicycles fell 8.7% to 35.6 million
> between 2001 and 2006, according to the National Sporting Goods
> Association. Still, makers were able to keep up sales during that
> period, with units sold up 16%, dollar sales up 33% and the average
> sales price 26% higher at $297, according to the Bicycle Products
> Suppliers Association."
>
> [/quote]
>
> I was of the opinion that ridership was increasing in North America.
> Certainly that's what a casual glance round here (Toronto) leads one
> to believe.

I think that's everybody's impression except the NSGA. I suspect this is a
broad survey of many different sporting goods (and therefore may not have a
good base for showing trends), but I'm not motivated to investigate.

Mike "That's my day job" Kruger
(form of sig line is a homage to Sheldon)

Date: 30 Sep 2007 21:47:31
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andrew Muzi mused:
>...
> Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to drink
> the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess I'll
> stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?

You only sell bicycles made by sole proprietorships and partnerships?

What is wrong with "corporate brands" (question, not a flame)?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 01 Oct 2007 10:53:25
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Andrew Muzi mused:
>> ...
>> Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to
>> drink the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess
>> I'll stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?
>
> You only sell bicycles made by sole proprietorships and partnerships?
>
> What is wrong with "corporate brands" (question, not a flame)?
>
Admittedly a poor choice of words. I can't think of a pithy term.

I used to sell bikes from the kinda guys who visit regularly, calc their
% of floor space, wouldn't sell unless you bought a 'program', insisted
on tied accessory sales then raised your unit cost if another brand was
strong in the shop. At 2500 bikes/year I was miserable and losing money
fast. That's no life at all IMHO.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 19:03:31
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andrew Muzi mused:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi mused:
>>> ...
>>> Apparently, I lead a sheltered life here. But given the choice to
>>> drink the Kool Aid (Vegas, corporate brands on my floor, etc) I guess
>>> I'll stay happy in my ignorance. What is wrong with these people?
>>
>> You only sell bicycles made by sole proprietorships and partnerships?
>>
>> What is wrong with "corporate brands" (question, not a flame)?
>>
> Admittedly a poor choice of words. I can't think of a pithy term.
>
> I used to sell bikes from the kinda guys who visit regularly, calc their
> % of floor space, wouldn't sell unless you bought a 'program', insisted
> on tied accessory sales then raised your unit cost if another brand was
> strong in the shop. At 2500 bikes/year I was miserable and losing money
> fast. That's no life at all IMHO.

Sensible clarification - the product (in most cases) is fine, the
behavior of the sales/marketing department is not.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 01 Oct 2007 09:26:13
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi wrote:

> I used to sell bikes from the kinda guys who visit regularly, calc their
> % of floor space, wouldn't sell unless you bought a 'program', insisted
> on tied accessory sales then raised your unit cost if another brand was
> strong in the shop. At 2500 bikes/year I was miserable and losing money
> fast. That's no life at all IMHO.

I tend to go to shops like yours, non-tied shops. Still, apparently it
works well for some shops to be tied to one brand.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 12:36:08
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>
>> I used to sell bikes from the kinda guys who visit regularly, calc
>> their % of floor space, wouldn't sell unless you bought a 'program',
>> insisted on tied accessory sales then raised your unit cost if another
>> brand was strong in the shop. At 2500 bikes/year I was miserable and
>> losing money fast. That's no life at all IMHO.
>
> I tend to go to shops like yours, non-tied shops. Still, apparently it
> works well for some shops to be tied to one brand.

Is "Giant" one of those brands? I went to my LBS the other day and I had
to wait. While I was waiting I looked around and I don't think I saw a
single bike in there that wasn't a Giant and they had at least 150 bikes
on the floor jammed in tight.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 09:58:51
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

vey wrote:

> Is "Giant" one of those brands? I went to my LBS the other day and I had
> to wait. While I was waiting I looked around and I don't think I saw a
> single bike in there that wasn't a Giant and they had at least 150 bikes
> on the floor jammed in tight.

No, the shop is tied to the Trek brands. It's fine for those who want a
Trek product, and it's a very good shop. Unfortunately, the last few
bikes I've purchased for myself and family members, there was no Trek
product that was suitable in terms of features, size, and price.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 18:53:43
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> vey wrote:
>
>> Is "Giant" one of those brands? I went to my LBS the other day and I
>> had to wait. While I was waiting I looked around and I don't think I
>> saw a single bike in there that wasn't a Giant and they had at least
>> 150 bikes on the floor jammed in tight.
>
> No, the shop is tied to the Trek brands. It's fine for those who want a
> Trek product, and it's a very good shop. Unfortunately, the last few
> bikes I've purchased for myself and family members, there was no Trek
> product that was suitable in terms of features, size, and price.

Sounds just like the shop of one of the RBT regulars, no?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 02 Oct 2007 01:39:38
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

Jobst Brandt

Date: 02 Oct 2007 10:49:29
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

They have TrekLand at a stadium in Madison all though August.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 02 Oct 2007 06:06:11
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>
> Jobst Brandt

Were they actually not there, or do they just not show up on the
Interkike Exhibitor list?

"http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/trek-unveils-new-remedy-six-inch-travel-mountain-bike-12569"

Maybe they just had no booth, instead opting for demos, and having a
private suite to meet with their dealers.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 18:46:43
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>
> Jobst Brandt

Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:03:57
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

SMS wrote:
> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Wow, that's an odd analysis.
You should discuss all that with someone in the bicycle industry, 2007,
USA, for a quick reality check.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 01 Oct 2007 21:24:43
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
cheeseheads.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 02 Oct 2007 11:22:06
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> So why wasn't TREK at InterBike?

> SMS wrote:
>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
> cheeseheads.

Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the
ropes and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like
it or not.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Oct 2007 06:18:31
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> SMS wrote:
>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
>> cheeseheads.
>
> Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the ropes
> and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like it or
> not.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

You're dating yourself. Bridgestone didn't make very many Treks, outside of
the "300" series. You and I are old enough to remember those; very few
others will. The 400 series+ were domestic. Import mountain bikes were
initially made by Merida, then later Giant. The "Jazz" bikes were made by a
smaller company in Taiwan, possibly Ideal?

Trek's initial breakthrough product was probably the 560. Did you attend the
Reno bike show? Didn't they have a billboard of that bike? Black with
pink-ish decals, if I recall correctly.

But I take issue with the idea that China "saved" Trek. To say that requires
you to suggest that China saved the world, and sorry, I just don't think
that's the case. China's emergence as a dominant manufacturing power has
certainly changed the world, but I don't think it saved it. Trek recognized,
in time, that domestic manufacturing of moderately-priced bikes couldn't
continue if they planned to be competitive, or even survive, in the
marketplace. That was definitely painful, but I think many would say China
caused that to happen, rather than saying Trek's decision to embrace
worldwide production was some great decision. Companies that did otherwise
simply would not have continued.

China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices... lower
than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure from the
bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even survival). But
in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product for out-of-work
and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault China per se;
eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and ultimately what
becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but rather show profit by
pushing paper.

This is not where I wanted to go with this...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 04 Oct 2007 11:44:18
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>>> SMS wrote:
>>>> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
>>>> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
>>>> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
>>>> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
>>>> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
>>>> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
>>>> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
>>> cheeseheads.

(am@yellowjersey.org)
>> Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the ropes
>> and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like it or
>> not.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> You're dating yourself. Bridgestone didn't make very many Treks, outside of
> the "300" series. You and I are old enough to remember those; very few
> others will. The 400 series+ were domestic. Import mountain bikes were
> initially made by Merida, then later Giant. The "Jazz" bikes were made by a
> smaller company in Taiwan, possibly Ideal?
>
> Trek's initial breakthrough product was probably the 560. Did you attend the
> Reno bike show? Didn't they have a billboard of that bike? Black with
> pink-ish decals, if I recall correctly.
>
> But I take issue with the idea that China "saved" Trek. To say that requires
> you to suggest that China saved the world, and sorry, I just don't think
> that's the case. China's emergence as a dominant manufacturing power has
> certainly changed the world, but I don't think it saved it. Trek recognized,
> in time, that domestic manufacturing of moderately-priced bikes couldn't
> continue if they planned to be competitive, or even survive, in the
> marketplace. That was definitely painful, but I think many would say China
> caused that to happen, rather than saying Trek's decision to embrace
> worldwide production was some great decision. Companies that did otherwise
> simply would not have continued.
>
> China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices... lower
> than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure from the
> bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even survival). But
> in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product for out-of-work
> and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault China per se;
> eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and ultimately what
> becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but rather show profit by
> pushing paper.
>
> This is not where I wanted to go with this...

We do not disagree.
Tom mentioned 'built by cheeseheads' and AFAIK they all were until the
model #300 as you noted. Yes, Merida built a good bikes at a reasonable
price, both for Trek and others. I sold them myself.
Today, Trek simply could not be as large or as profitable without
Chinese outsourcing. Take that any way you like, I make no other claims.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 02 Oct 2007 20:16:04
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Andrew Muzi mused:
> ...
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
>> cheeseheads.
>
> Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the
> ropes and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like
> it or not.

While my income is not good compared to what it would have been for
similar work 3 decades ago, by not wasting my money, I can still afford
to purchase a bicycle made by people who really care about what they are
doing. My next new bicycle (like my last 4 used) will in all likelihood
be made in a small town in the US.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 02 Oct 2007 21:16:20
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

>> ...
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
>>> cheeseheads.

> Andrew Muzi blathered:
>> Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the
>> ropes and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company,
>> like it or not.

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> While my income is not good compared to what it would have been for
> similar work 3 decades ago, by not wasting my money, I can still afford
> to purchase a bicycle made by people who really care about what they are
> doing. My next new bicycle (like my last 4 used) will in all likelihood
> be made in a small town in the US.

Agreed, mostly good designs, generally well made, often free to dirt
cheap at yard sales, thrift stores. Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
gave it to him.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 03 Oct 2007 14:31:30
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi wrote:

>
> Agreed, mostly good designs, generally well made, often free to dirt
> cheap at yard sales, thrift stores. Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
> Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
> gave it to him.

I must be going to the wrong garage sales. Used bikes in general are
scarce as hen's teeth around here. What I see on Craigslist are people
that have unrealistic expectations of used values or those Pacific Cycle
bikes or a combo of both. I'll keep riding my free one until something
better comes along. I didn't realize how lucky I was when I found it.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 21:48:04
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:

> I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
> cheeseheads.

LOL, my nephew lives in Saint Paul, MN and was going to buy a Rivendell.
The bike shop owner told him that one of the ex-Trek frame-builders
could build him an equivalent steel bicycle for less.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 13:18:20
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

SMS wrote:
> vey wrote:
>
>> Is "Giant" one of those brands? I went to my LBS the other day and I
>> had to wait. While I was waiting I looked around and I don't think I
>> saw a single bike in there that wasn't a Giant and they had at least
>> 150 bikes on the floor jammed in tight.
>
> No, the shop is tied to the Trek brands. It's fine for those who want a
> Trek product, and it's a very good shop. Unfortunately, the last few
> bikes I've purchased for myself and family members, there was no Trek
> product that was suitable in terms of features, size, and price.
>

Then I don't know why this a Giant shop. I can special order any part I
want, so I guess I could special order a different brand bike, too.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 22:15:07
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Date: 30 Sep 2007 17:54:30
From: blisterlester
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 20:41:06
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:54:30 -0600, blisterlester <wwilliam@attbi.com >
wrote:

>Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
>need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

Dear B,

See "The Economic Naturalist," Robert H. Frank, which addresses that
and other specific questions.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 30 Sep 2007 20:42:29
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

blisterlester wrote:
> Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
> need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

At most of the motels I have stayed at (for work), they should have
provided no additional charge bug nets. Cockroaches do not bother me too
much, until they try to crawl into my ears while I am sleeping.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 30 Sep 2007 19:52:26
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191173769.158000.269000@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007
>
> Sheldon "Gambling Is Not Among My Vices" Brown

A TV in the crapper! Did it use the same remote as the drapes?

Date: 30 Sep 2007 19:39:40
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.

The Unior Tools look interesting. Check out this Pocket spoke and
freewheel remover wrench in one. I'm a sucker for multi-tasking tools.
http://www.uniortools.com/cgi-bin/cms.cgi?doc=10780&prod=44729&sid=bNVchg3UamMgIpJX
-or- http://tinyurl.com/2etboh

Date: 30 Sep 2007 22:47:12
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> The Civia frame, with all those
> molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
> like it would be a sweet commuter.

It's a nice-looking frame, but boy does it carry a heavy tariff for
those neat cable guides. $1900 for the single speed complete bike!
I'm sure some of the seemingly unnecessary expense is for the Alfine
parts, but wow.

Cycle commuters are pragmatic folk. It's one thing to sell a $2000-
$3000 bike to a fashion-seeking tool for use as a plaything, but a
transportational bike is a value-driven purchase. I think that Surly
serves the _high_ end of that market, but QBP evidently thinks it's
the low end. I wish them luck, but I predict an indifferent market
reception.

Chalo

Date: 01 Oct 2007 05:15:58
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191192432.975398.211250@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >
> > The Civia frame, with all those
> > molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
> > like it would be a sweet commuter.
>
> It's a nice-looking frame, but boy does it carry a heavy tariff for
> those neat cable guides. $1900 for the single speed complete bike!
> I'm sure some of the seemingly unnecessary expense is for the Alfine
> parts, but wow.
>
> Cycle commuters are pragmatic folk. It's one thing to sell a $2000-
> $3000 bike to a fashion-seeking tool for use as a plaything, but a
> transportational bike is a value-driven purchase. I think that Surly
> serves the _high_ end of that market, but QBP evidently thinks it's
> the low end. I wish them luck, but I predict an indifferent market
> reception.
>
> Chalo

Maybe, maybe not. The dependency here is this: you and I are practical
men of action, who buy whatever they find in the nearest garage sale (or
in your case, have custom built, for morphological reasons :). Then we
add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.

However, there is a certain subset of people who commute by bike,
probably in the city, and have considerable disposable income. For them,
these things are probably the two-wheeled equivalent of a BMW 5-series:
beautifully-made rolling overkill.

Which is great, because in a decade you and I will be buying this
generation's leftovers at pennies on the dollar.

Well, I think I'll leave the iDrive BMWs on the shelf.

I hope, for lots of reasons, that this bike finds its market, expensive
as it is. It isn't the solution to commuting by bike, but it would be a
fine bellwether to say that that's the way things are going.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 01 Oct 2007 09:41:13
From: vey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Then we
> add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
>

Where do you get fenders and racks for a total of $20?

Date: 01 Oct 2007 10:03:00
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <fdqt73$lsn$1@news.datemas.de >, vey <junker@ericvey.com>
wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Then we
> > add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
> >
>
> Where do you get fenders and racks for a total of $20?

In Canada:

http://tinyurl.com/yr5cvl

Date: 01 Oct 2007 10:03:51
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <011020071003006641%lucasiragusa@rogers.com >, Luke
<lucasiragusa@rogers.com > wrote:

> In article <fdqt73$lsn$1@news.datemas.de>, vey <junker@ericvey.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Then we
> > > add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
> > >
> >
> > Where do you get fenders and racks for a total of $20?
>
> In Canada:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yr5cvl

Well, fenders anyway.

Date: 01 Oct 2007 00:00:39
From: Zoot Katz
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:15:58 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca >
wrote:

>In article <1191192432.975398.211250@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> >
>> > The Civia frame, with all those
>> > molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
>> > like it would be a sweet commuter.
>>
>> It's a nice-looking frame, but boy does it carry a heavy tariff for
>> those neat cable guides. $1900 for the single speed complete bike!
>> I'm sure some of the seemingly unnecessary expense is for the Alfine
>> parts, but wow.
>>
>> Cycle commuters are pragmatic folk. It's one thing to sell a $2000-
>> $3000 bike to a fashion-seeking tool for use as a plaything, but a
>> transportational bike is a value-driven purchase. I think that Surly
>> serves the _high_ end of that market, but QBP evidently thinks it's
>> the low end. I wish them luck, but I predict an indifferent market
>> reception.
>>
>> Chalo
>
>Maybe, maybe not. The dependency here is this: you and I are practical
>men of action, who buy whatever they find in the nearest garage sale (or
>in your case, have custom built, for morphological reasons :). Then we
>add fenders and racks, and that's that. The $20 commuter.
>
>However, there is a certain subset of people who commute by bike,
>probably in the city, and have considerable disposable income. For them,
>these things are probably the two-wheeled equivalent of a BMW 5-series:
>beautifully-made rolling overkill.
>
>Which is great, because in a decade you and I will be buying this
>generation's leftovers at pennies on the dollar.
>
>Well, I think I'll leave the iDrive BMWs on the shelf.
>
>I hope, for lots of reasons, that this bike finds its market, expensive
>as it is. It isn't the solution to commuting by bike, but it would be a
>fine bellwether to say that that's the way things are going.

Yep, their target market is kinda obvious.. . people with jobs that
offer secure parking.

Jorg and Olif have done well selling their Dutch bikes. I've spotted
a new Pashley, a new Batavus and a few nice looking Euro style
step-throughs in the hood too. Rain City Bikes has some pricey
offerings. We'll see how they do.

Our "beaters" came out of dumpsters and garage sales to develop into
practical city-bikes by our tweaking them to satisfy our needs,
budget and geek quota. These new bikes are swanky but it's going to
be a hard sell making full chain-cases and 40 lbs. bicycles sexy
after all the sport bike hype.

I think the biggest hurdle for the manufacturers entering this market
will be having to compete with electric bikes from China at the same
price-point or lower.

The electric bike makers may have to form a strong lobby in order to
have their products made more widely acceptable by local laws before
they can compete with bicycles. We're lucky, or maybe cursed, here in
that buzz-bikes aren't unnecessarily restricted.
--
zk

Date: 01 Oct 2007 13:07:29
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Zoot Katz wrote:

> Our "beaters" came out of dumpsters and garage sales to develop into
> practical city-bikes by our tweaking them to satisfy our needs,
> budget and geek quota. These new bikes are swanky but it's going to
> be a hard sell making full chain-cases and 40 lbs. bicycles sexy
> after all the sport bike hype.

I built up a commuter for my wife with a non-MTB 26" wheel frame with
real slack angles that I found on trash day. MTB wheels are cheap, so
are MTB brifters & V-brakes, cranks & derailers, added fenders & flaps,
slicks, rack & pannier and I was done.

Now, after riding it 3-4 years, she obsesses about it being stolen. I
say -- sweetheart, that was the whole point, it's a $150 bike, so you
don't have to sweat it. Her answer -- yes, but I'd never get another one
*just* like it. You can't win.

Date: 02 Oct 2007 03:01:58
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <V96dnVyIRqvPtJzanZ2dnUVZ_qKgnZ2d@comcast.com >,
Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net > wrote:

> Zoot Katz wrote:
>
> > Our "beaters" came out of dumpsters and garage sales to develop into
> > practical city-bikes by our tweaking them to satisfy our needs,
> > budget and geek quota. These new bikes are swanky but it's going to
> > be a hard sell making full chain-cases and 40 lbs. bicycles sexy
> > after all the sport bike hype.
>
> I built up a commuter for my wife with a non-MTB 26" wheel frame with
> real slack angles that I found on trash day. MTB wheels are cheap, so
> are MTB brifters & V-brakes, cranks & derailers, added fenders & flaps,
> slicks, rack & pannier and I was done.
>
> Now, after riding it 3-4 years, she obsesses about it being stolen. I
> say -- sweetheart, that was the whole point, it's a $150 bike, so you
> don't have to sweat it. Her answer -- yes, but I'd never get another one
> *just* like it. You can't win.

Some people can say "it's just parts," and some people can't.

Being one of the former, I of course think my group is happier than the
other one.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 30 Sep 2007 19:02:04
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

"Chalo" <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1191192432.975398.211250@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>
>> The Civia frame, with all those
>> molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
>> like it would be a sweet commuter.
>
> It's a nice-looking frame, but boy does it carry a heavy tariff for
> those neat cable guides. $1900 for the single speed complete bike!
> I'm sure some of the seemingly unnecessary expense is for the Alfine
> parts, but wow.
>
> Cycle commuters are pragmatic folk. It's one thing to sell a $2000-
> $3000 bike to a fashion-seeking tool for use as a plaything, but a
> transportational bike is a value-driven purchase. I think that Surly
> serves the _high_ end of that market, but QBP evidently thinks it's
> the low end. I wish them luck, but I predict an indifferent market
> reception.
>
> Chalo

If I walked into a bike shop, and the 2008 Raleigh One Way and the
singlespeed Civia were side by side, I'd take home the One Way and a rack
and leave with a bunch of money. Then I'd spend some of that money on a nice
lighting system and still spend less than the Civia. But that's just me.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 18:17:59
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

I see that Brooks is going to introduce a line of panniers. There's the roll
up panniers, and a real rear pannier. That's great. It's about time somebody
gave Carradice some competition. Unfortunately----it's Brooks, an even more
expensive company. Wonder if the price on the panniers is going to as much
as Berthoud?

Mike

Date: 30 Sep 2007 14:56:57
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Ryan Cousineau a =E9crit:

> My personal theory is that the Great Missing Bicycle for sports use is a
> cyclocross bike based around an Alfine 8-speed hub. My reasoning is that
> those bikes are desperately vulnerable to mud-clogged transmissions, and
> a lot of pros already run a single front ring.

Great minds...See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8

Sheldon "Been There, Done That, Sold Lots" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+

Date: 01 Oct 2007 05:22:31
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191189417.688845.129620@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau a ?crit:
>
> > My personal theory is that the Great Missing Bicycle for sports use is a
> > cyclocross bike based around an Alfine 8-speed hub. My reasoning is that
> > those bikes are desperately vulnerable to mud-clogged transmissions, and
> > a lot of pros already run a single front ring.
>
> Great minds...See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8
>
> Sheldon "Been There, Done That, Sold Lots" Brown

Ingenious! What's the finished weight of that bike? Have you built up
any using the new Alfine hubs, or are they the same as Nexus Red Band?
Am I right in guessing that the finished price is somewhere around $1000?

Tempted, despite the fact I'm about to buy another laptop,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 30 Sep 2007 13:34:01
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Great report. I missed this year's show unfortunately. It's the only
reason I ever go to Las Vegas now that Comdex is history. I liked it
better when Interbike was in Anaheim.

I'm really glad that the Piccolo is back. Now if only Burley can bring
back the 2006 model d'Lite with the frame around the wheels.

Date: 30 Sep 2007 19:53:22
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

In article <1191173769.158000.269000@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.
>
> Check it out at http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Your report was vastly more interesting than the stuff I've seen on
Velonews or Cyclingnews (and I say that as a fan of James Huang's tech
reports). You found whole categories of stuff they didn't notice.

That said, The Claw appears to be an mostly ridiculous complication of a
ceiling-mounted hook, which he had the chutzpah to have present for
comparison. It looked like he had more trouble with The Claw than he did
with the hook, though I see his point about heavy bikes or high mounts.
Maybe this is a red-letter day for tandemists.

The picture of the Norco commuter is quite tasty, and the first-hand
account of the NuVinci CVT hub is intriguing. I can't wait to hear the
ride report from the Greenspeed. The Civia frame, with all those
molded-in guides and easy provision for hub or derailer setups, looks
like it would be a sweet commuter. But the Sora upgrade! That is big
news. 9-speed, still adjustable reach, plus gear indicator.

My personal theory is that the Great Missing Bicycle for sports use is a
cyclocross bike based around an Alfine 8-speed hub. My reasoning is that
those bikes are desperately vulnerable to mud-clogged transmissions, and
a lot of pros already run a single front ring.

> Sheldon "Gambling Is Not Among My Vices" Brown

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos