Sheldon Does Vegas

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Date: 05 Oct 2006 13:59:54
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Sheldon Does Vegas

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Sheldon "A Little Of This, A Little Of That" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+

Date: 10 Oct 2006 10:02:41
From: Chris Y.F.N.W.
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

I like the idea of a Champiom Flyer saddle with hammered rivets!

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

Date: 09 Oct 2006 22:41:23
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

In article <icoli2t5qvmmjafbn43qss5hd5vhf31sk1@4ax.com >,
Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org > writes:
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:04:22 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
>>I'm a fan of purpose-designed/built bikes, myself.
>>Stuff like some of this:
>>
>>http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/index.html
>
> http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/bicycles/worbikes-or-bakfietsen.html
>
> That particular style had been in continuous use in .nl untiol at least
> the 60s for people like bakers etc on their daily runs to supply farms
> with their daily bread and such, and in cities as well. Similar variants
> with a motorcycle/moped rear end were also common later on.. I even know
> of a couple survivors in various states of disrepair, both with and
> without motors, where the big tray is an ice cream stall or herring stand.

Those specialized features such as trays, passenger compartments
and cargo bins are indeed interesting. But what I find
particularly compelling is how the various components -- fenders,
racks, chain guards etc are so integrated with the overall bicycle;
they complete it.

Sticking afterket fenders and racks on an originally bare-bones
bicycle is rather "Vertical Development", which I suppose is apropos.
But sometimes it's nice to get the full meal deal, where one gets
/components/ rather than a clutter of accessories. Maybe there's
room in the North American ket for "turnkey" transportational bikes.
The Breezer Townies and suchlike are a good start.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 06 Oct 2006 18:23:30
From: Veloise
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Diablo Scott wrote:
> Photo of special merit:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

So Sheldon's now a redhead?

--Karen D.
me too!

Date: 06 Oct 2006 11:04:22
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

In article <1160155564.058693.91570@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > writes:

>> This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
>> horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
>> be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.
>
> Ooh, thanks for reminding me...I've long been a fan of the Breezer
> Uptown 8, but this year I'm really in love, becasuse the 2007 model
> will have not just a simple chainguard, but a FULL CHAINCASE! YAY!!!

I'm a fan of purpose-designed/built bikes, myself.
Stuff like some of this:

http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/index.html

where functional stuff on bikes isn't just slapped-on afterthoughts
like fenders and racks, but is built into the bicycles' designs, from
the ground, up, with a mind toward what the bicycle is intended to do.
With matching paint, and other aesthetic and functional considerations.

And y'know what? I think there's a groundswell for this sort of
approach to cycling in North America. I believe the current
popularity of cruisers, choppers, etc is at least in part a
reaction against the boring predominance of traditional configs
(road, off-road, BMX, etc) in the bicycle ket

And I think the highly-priced Breezer Uptowns, and Jorg-&-Olafs &c
could go quite a bit further to address user demands & needs for
truly functional yet pleasurable bicycles. And I wish they would.

It would also be nice if they didn't cost so much :-)
But, oh, well.

cheers,
Tom

--
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 09 Oct 2006 23:59:13
From: Jasper Janssen
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:04:22 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>I'm a fan of purpose-designed/built bikes, myself.
>Stuff like some of this:
>
>http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/index.html

http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/bicycles/worbikes-or-bakfietsen.html

That particular style had been in continuous use in .nl untiol at least
the 60s for people like bakers etc on their daily runs to supply farms
with their daily bread and such, and in cities as well. Similar variants
with a motorcycle/moped rear end were also common later on.. I even know
of a couple survivors in various states of disrepair, both with and
without motors, where the big tray is an ice cream stall or herring stand.

Jasper

Date: 06 Oct 2006 19:47:57
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= Schwarz
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown hatte geschrieben:

> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Date: 06 Oct 2006 10:26:04
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Matt O'Toole wrote:

> Among all those neat commuter bikes, I would have liked to have seen one
> with hub gears, *and* fenders, *and* a chainguard. Why have hub gears
> without a chainguard? Isn't that the whole point?
>
> This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
> horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
> be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.

Ooh, thanks for reminding me...I've long been a fan of the Breezer
Uptown 8, but this year I'm really in love, becasuse the 2007 model
will have not just a simple chainguard, but a FULL CHAINCASE! YAY!!!

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/breezer/uptown8.html currently shows the
2006 model, but I'll update it when the 2007s arrive.

Sheldon "No Maintenance" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+

Date: 06 Oct 2006 15:05:05
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:26:04 -0700, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> Ooh, thanks for reminding me...I've long been a fan of the Breezer
> Uptown 8, but this year I'm really in love, becasuse the 2007 model
> will have not just a simple chainguard, but a FULL CHAINCASE! YAY!!!
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/breezer/uptown8.html currently shows the
> 2006 model, but I'll update it when the 2007s arrive.

Groovy! This is what most people need, at least those who use their bikes
for daily transportation. I'd love to have one myself.

Unfortunately while I've seen plenty about Breezer in the media, I've
never seen one in a bike shop. I wonder if their sales even cover their
advertising budget, let alone the rest of it. I hope so.

Didn't Trek buy a townie-bike company awhile back? What happened to that?

Matt O.

Date: 06 Oct 2006 19:48:57
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
>
>>Among all those neat commuter bikes, I would have liked to have seen one
>>with hub gears, *and* fenders, *and* a chainguard. Why have hub gears
>>without a chainguard? Isn't that the whole point?
>>
>>This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
>>horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
>>be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.
>
>
> Ooh, thanks for reminding me...I've long been a fan of the Breezer
> Uptown 8, but this year I'm really in love, becasuse the 2007 model
> will have not just a simple chainguard, but a FULL CHAINCASE! YAY!!!
>
>

I'm always suprised that bikes with a full chaincase are so uncommon
outside The Netherlands. Gearhub and full chaincase are default around
here for commuting.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Date: 06 Oct 2006 15:12:36
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 19:48:57 +0200, Lou Holtman wrote:

> I'm always suprised that bikes with a full chaincase are so uncommon
> outside The Netherlands. Gearhub and full chaincase are default around
> here for commuting.

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect. With chaincases the
only regular maintenance that would be necessary is a quick wash and/or
wipe.

Matt O.

Date: 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08
From: Pat Lamb
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
> picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
> maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
> So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.

I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
steep in my book!

Pat

Date: 09 Oct 2006 12:19:30
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb wrote:

> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>>
>> I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
>> picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
>> maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
>> So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.
>
> I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
> east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
> steep in my book!

You may be right, but it's definitely an exception among rail trails. On
most, the grades are barely perceptible.

Matt O.

Date: 09 Oct 2006 11:41:50
From: Set
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net >
wrote:

>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>>
>> I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
>> picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
>> maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
>> So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.
>
>I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
>east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
>steep in my book!
>
>Pat

Almost. 'close to 4%':

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019

Date: 09 Oct 2006 20:30:44
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:41:50 -0400, Set<@setnet.com > wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>>> I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
>>> picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
>>> maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
>>> So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.
>>
>>I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
>>east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
>>steep in my book!
>
>Almost. 'close to 4%':
>
>http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019

I really don't know where they get that number.
http://www.crescentcitycyclists.org/vacreeper/vacreeper.html says up
to 6% (I believe it!).
http://home.comcast.net/~cmorhiker/VaCreeperBike.html claims a 7%
grade, and
http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/mr/recreation/hiking/va_creeper.shtml says
it's nearly 7%.

I can't remember the source, but IIRC one of the reasons N&W abandoned
the Abingdon Branch was that they could only pull something like six
fully loaded freight cars up the mountain. The curves and bridges
were built such that they couldn't get a larger engine up the track,
and the steep grade to Whitetop limited the load. Of course, I
remember longer trains from when I was a child, but most of the cars
were loaded going down; they mostly pulled empties up the mountain!

Pat

Email address works as is.

Date: 09 Oct 2006 12:22:16
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:41:50 -0400, wrote:

> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
>>> picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
>>> maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
>>> So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.
>>
>>I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
>>east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
>>steep in my book!
>>
>>Pat
>
> Almost. 'close to 4%':
>
> http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019

Actually that seems about right. The Creeper definitely isn't as steep as
some road grades around here that I know are 6%. Also, most RR grades
don't exceed 3%, that extra 1% being a big deal but still possible.

Matt O.

Date: 09 Oct 2006 20:37:13
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:22:16 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:41:50 -0400, wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
>>>east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
>>>steep in my book!
>>>
>> Almost. 'close to 4%':
>>
>> http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019
>
>Actually that seems about right. The Creeper definitely isn't as steep as
>some road grades around here that I know are 6%. Also, most RR grades
>don't exceed 3%, that extra 1% being a big deal but still possible.

The steep part is only about 3/4 of a mile, starting perhaps half a
mile below Whitetop station. I think the rest is 3% or below, as you
say. Remember, though, the Creeper was originally a logging railroad
-- they had lots steeper grades than, for instance, N&W, The
Virginian, or C&O coal lines.

Pat

Email address works as is.

Date: 10 Oct 2006 01:50:36
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Virginia Creeper Trail, was Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 20:37:13 -0500, Patrick Lamb wrote:

> The steep part is only about 3/4 of a mile, starting perhaps half a mile
> below Whitetop station. I think the rest is 3% or below, as you say.
> Remember, though, the Creeper was originally a logging railroad -- they
> had lots steeper grades than, for instance, N&W, The Virginian, or C&O
> coal lines.

Exactly. It was pretty curvy for a RR too, which makes for a very nice
trail.

I recommend it, especially during the next month, for the fall color. If
you're within driving distance it's well worth a day trip. Our bike club
will probably have a trip scheduled soon.

For those unfamiliar with it, with a car shuttle you can ride the Creeper
downhill-only for something like 17 miles. With a car shuttle or a ride
from one of the outfitters, *anyone* can enjoy it. Most experienced
riders will pedal both ways, the climb being easy, the descent still fun.
The scenery is wonderful, especially this time of year.

http://www.vacreepertrail.com/

Matt O.

Date: 06 Oct 2006 10:13:08
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Buck wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > "Kinda disappointed in Bianchi this year. They continue to believe that
> > disc brakes make sense on singlespeed bikes. This year they've got
> > three different singlespeed/disc mountain bikes and a singlespeed/disc
> > cyclocross bike as well!
> >
> > "Using a disc brake means you can't use a flip-flop hub, so you'll be
> > stuck with only a single gear option.
> >
> > "Also, as the chain wears and you move the wheel back in the axle
> > slots, the relationship between the disc and the caliper will change,
> > which is a Bad Thing.
> >
> > "If you combine a disc brake with an old-fashioned rear-opening fork
> > end, as is currently fashionable, you have to undo the caliper just to
> > fix a flat tire!
> >
> > "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
> > _need_ a rear disc brake."
> >
> > There's no problem running a front disc if you prefer, but I'd strongly
> > advise going for a rim brake in back.
>
> Sheldon,
>
> Regarding your concerns about disc brakes on single-speeds, On-One now
> uses sliding dropouts to maintian the relationship between caliper and
> hub and still allow adjustment of the axle to bottom bracket length.
> This seems like a reasonable solution which addresses most of your
> concerns. A partial solution to the flip-flop hub concern would be the
> surly cogs you presented on your report. They wouldn't allow a
> fixed/free option, but at least there would be two gear ratios.

Those are fixed only. However, White Industries makes some very nice
two speed freewheels that would work in 16-18 and 17-19. I've got one
of the former on my Quickbeam.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/singlespeed.html#freewheels

> I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts.

Right. See: http://tinyurl.com/nfxoy

> What do you think
> of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?

Those are solutions of a sort, but why not just avoid creating the
problem? Singlespeeds should be simple.

> Link to sliding dropouts:
> http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

That particular sliding dropout does _not_ preserve the relationship
betwixt the rotor and caliper, because the caliper mounts to a frame
braze-on, not to the sliding dropout.

These Paragon dropouts do maintain this relationship:
http://tinyurl.com/rbjdp

Sheldon "K.I.S.S." Brown
+--------------------------------------------+

Date: 06 Oct 2006 12:56:40
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:59:54 -0700, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Thanks for the report!

Among all those neat commuter bikes, I would have liked to have seen one
with hub gears, *and* fenders, *and* a chainguard. Why have hub gears
without a chainguard? Isn't that the whole point?

This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.

Matt O.

Date: 06 Oct 2006 08:43:41
From: SYJ
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> Sheldon "A Little Of This, A Little Of That" Brown
http://sheldonbrown.com

Thanks for the report! It's nice seeing some of the 'non racer' stuff
that would otherwise go unreported by the cycling rags. If I squint
really hard, it almost looks like the tandem is made by 'Brown Cycles'
- but I may be mistaken.

SYJ

Date: 06 Oct 2006 08:27:48
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

jlee wrote:
> Sweet report. Thanks for the effort (of making the report).
>
> Now the real questions is, I've only managed to get a few strands of
> orange-brownish hair in my beard. How in the world did you get that
> radioactive red-pink glow to yours? Surely, we know you're not the
> superficial type to go for - gasp - artificial coloring? Dites-nous que
> c'est pas vraie! Du colorant? Non...Ca se peut pas...

Clairol Auburn #80.

I'm either 3/8 or 5/16 Irish, (there's this one great-great-grandmother
from Newfoundland nobody knows much about) but never _looked_ Irish
until I made the chemical change.

When I was young my hair was black, then it turned to increasingly
light shades of gray. A couple of years ago I thought it might be fun
to see how I would look as a redhead, so I got some of this "temporary"
dye. As it turned out, I liked the look, so I've stuck with it for the
beard and hair (the head hair is seasonal...I let it grow for the
winter, shave it off for the summer.) I figure if I'm gonna have hair,
I might as well have some fun with it.

My family has an ancestral fondness for red hair, though most of us are
"black Irish." Reputedly, my great grandfather, Stephen Joyce would
always hire any red-headed job applicant for his clothing business in
Boston.

Aren't you glad you asked?

Sheldon "Better Living Through Chemistry" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+

Date: 06 Oct 2006 08:23:59
From: Buck
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> "Kinda disappointed in Bianchi this year. They continue to believe that
> disc brakes make sense on singlespeed bikes. This year they've got
> three different singlespeed/disc mountain bikes and a singlespeed/disc
> cyclocross bike as well!
>
> "Using a disc brake means you can't use a flip-flop hub, so you'll be
> stuck with only a single gear option.
>
> "Also, as the chain wears and you move the wheel back in the axle
> slots, the relationship between the disc and the caliper will change,
> which is a Bad Thing.
>
> "If you combine a disc brake with an old-fashioned rear-opening fork
> end, as is currently fashionable, you have to undo the caliper just to
> fix a flat tire!
>
> "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
> _need_ a rear disc brake."
>
> There's no problem running a front disc if you prefer, but I'd strongly
> advise going for a rim brake in back.

Sheldon,

Regarding your concerns about disc brakes on single-speeds, On-One now
uses sliding dropouts to maintian the relationship between caliper and
hub and still allow adjustment of the axle to bottom bracket length.
This seems like a reasonable solution which addresses most of your
concerns. A partial solution to the flip-flop hub concern would be the
surly cogs you presented on your report. They wouldn't allow a
fixed/free option, but at least there would be two gear ratios.

I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts. What do you think
of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?

-Buck

Link to sliding dropouts:
http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

Date: 07 Oct 2006 06:22:35
From: Mark Hickey
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

"Buck" <bicyclebuck@gmail.com > wrote:

>I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts. What do you think
>of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?
>
>-Buck
>
>Link to sliding dropouts:
>http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

I agree with Sheldon - these DOs do nothing to keep the alignment
between the rotor and the caliper intact.

My favorite solution is to use an EBB (Eccentric Bottom Bracket).
That way, the dropouts and brake are "always right" [TM], and the rear
wheel installation is a breeze. There's never any slippage to worry
about, either. You can also use a frame equipped for a rear
derailleur as a SS this way (though you lose major style points if you
leave the RD on the bike when riding it as a SS).

k Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Date: 06 Oct 2006 08:12:07
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Alan Hoyle wrote:
> In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>
> > "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
> > _need_ a rear disc brake."
>
> [snip]
>
> > The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
> > conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
> > least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
> > this, I dunno.
>
> Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
> won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
> jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.

I'll buy that for derailer bikes, and I have no problem with rear disc
brakes for derailer bikes for off-road use.

However, symmetrically spoked singlespeed rear wheels, especially when
built on wide-based 135 mm hubs are MUCH, MUCH stronger than derailer
rear wheels, so the type of damage you describe is _extremely_ uncommon
except for unusually abusive riders.

Indeed, that's one of the chief attractions of singlespeeds.

Sheldon "Simplicity" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+

Date: 06 Oct 2006 12:48:04
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:12:07 -0700, Sheldon Brown wrote:

>
> Alan Hoyle wrote:
>> In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>>
>> > "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
>> > _need_ a rear disc brake."
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
>> > conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
>> > least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
>> > this, I dunno.
>>
>> Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
>> won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
>> jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.
>
> I'll buy that for derailer bikes, and I have no problem with rear disc
> brakes for derailer bikes for off-road use.
>
> However, symmetrically spoked singlespeed rear wheels, especially when
> built on wide-based 135 mm hubs are MUCH, MUCH stronger than derailer
> rear wheels, so the type of damage you describe is _extremely_ uncommon
> except for unusually abusive riders.

These days some riders are pretty abusive! Extreme Moto-X style jumps and
drops are all the rage. However I don't think people are buying discs
because they're worried about having to ride bent wheels. They're just
going for the Moto-X look. It's all fashion driven.

I agree that a flip-flop hub would be of more use to a singlespeed rider
than a rear disc.

To me, the main advantage of discs is better braking and no rim wear in
messy conditions. Otherwise their better performance is moot --
rim brakes work more than well enough.

Matt O.

Date: 06 Oct 2006 06:06:12
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Diablo Scott wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > My report:
> >
> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> Photo of special merit:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

There is a punch line out there for this picture...not sure what it is
but there is....

Date: 07 Oct 2006 01:13:54
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in message
news:1160139972.371297.250330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Diablo Scott wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>> > My report:
>> >
>> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>>
>> Photo of special merit:
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html
>
> There is a punch line out there for this picture...not sure what it is
> but there is....
>
Are they laughing, or is it just stress relief?

Date: 06 Oct 2006 06:29:25
From: Dan
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Diablo Scott wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>> My report:
>>>
>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>> Photo of special merit:
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html
>
> There is a punch line out there for this picture...not sure what it is
> but there is....
>
Does it have something to do with Jobst wearing an inner tube over his
shoulder?

Date: 06 Oct 2006 06:05:55
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Date: 06 Oct 2006 12:42:55
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On 6 Oct 2006 06:05:55 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:

>
>Diablo Scott wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>> > My report:
>> >
>> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>>
>> Photo of special merit:
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html
>
>There is a punch line out there for this pictire...not sure what it is
>but there is....

Dear Peter,

Sheldon: "My shirt is smooth and black for better traction. Why are
you guys both wearing colored shirts with the same pattern and little
round knobs?"

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Oct 2006 15:08:47
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Diablo Scott wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>> My report:
>>>
>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>>
>> Photo of special merit:
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html
>
> There is a punch line out there for this pictire...not sure what it is
> but there is....

"Breaking the shocking news to Dad (before he's too senile to remember)"?

Date: 05 Oct 2006 23:40:53
From: jlee
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sweet report. Thanks for the effort (of making the report).

Now the real questions is, I've only managed to get a few strands of
orange-brownish hair in my beard. How in the world did you get that
radioactive red-pink glow to yours? Surely, we know you're not the
superficial type to go for - gasp - artificial coloring? Dites-nous que
c'est pas vraie! Du colorant? Non...Ca se peut pas...

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>

Date: 06 Oct 2006 09:18:32
From: dvt
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

jlee wrote:
> Now the real questions is, I've only managed to get a few strands of
> orange-brownish hair in my beard. How in the world did you get that
> radioactive red-pink glow to yours? Surely, we know you're not the
> superficial type to go for - gasp - artificial coloring?

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

:^)

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Date: 05 Oct 2006 22:05:51
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

That sure came across as rude. Just a head's up, Sheldon, otherwise a
salute from me, and a virtual slurp from my cup of yerba mate!

Date: 05 Oct 2006 21:50:37
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <1160089103.580315.170020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>
> > Dane Buson wrote:
> > > In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
> > > > My report:
> > > >
> > > > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
> > >
> > > The first doubled cog from Surly should be 17-19, not 19-19, yes?
> > >
> > I'm always glad of proofreading help with my Website, I'm a fast but
> > not too accurate typist.
> >
> > However, when you do spot a typo, it would be better to send me an
> > email, rather than posting to a Usenet group.
>
> Since many of us visited the site and say the anamoly, a
> message here in rec.bicycles.tech is also welcome; might
> even spare you the extra email messages.
>
> --
> Michael Press

I'll be a bad boy and post this redundancy about the Brooks grips:

quote:
B.135 is similar to the B.130, with compound springs, but with the same
smaller top as the B.66-B.67.

The Brooks handlbar grips look very appealing. Edge-on leather discs
for good traction. The stack of discs is held together by bicycle
spokes! These grips have a fairly coarse appearance when new, but can
be expected to smoothen up with use.

The Brooks "Aged" saddles have turned out to be quite a bit softer than
the standard models. Targetted at lower-mileage riders who don't care
to take the time to break in a standard Brooks. Some of the early
"aged" models had a tendency to get too soft and too wide, so now they
are all coming with laced-together adjustable skirts.

Brooks handlebar grips are mad up of a stack of leather discs, set
edgewise and held together by two metal caps and three spokes!
/quote

Date: 05 Oct 2006 19:02:47
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

A normally reliable source wrote:

> I haven't ridden in those mountains, wherever they are . . .

> . . . wet , muddy
> conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
> least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
> this, I dunno.

Dear Sheldon,

The San Gabriels run right up next to Los Angeles.

I dunno about how wet they are, though massive mud slides following
forest fires and torrential rains make for entertaining reading if you
like John McPhee (See "The Control of Nature" collection of his New
Yorker pieces).

But in Colorado, things tend to be dry low altitudes--say Pueblo, out
on the Great Plains at around 5,000 feet, with the cactus, antelope,
yucca plants, tarantulas, and so forth.

It's up in the Rocky Mountains where things are muddy, wet, and
miserable.

In summer, it rains up there. In fall and winter, it snows. When spring
comes, the snow melts. People up in the mountains own raincoats.

The ski resorts are up high because that's where there's lots of snow.
Down in Pueblo, two feet of snow is a rare disaster. Up above Salida, a
hundred miles into the mountains, it's not enough to open the Monarch
ski resort at over 10,000 feet.

Typical mountain trails in Colorado follow and cross endless streams,
snowbanks, and bogs. It's out in the foothills where the desert
conditions are found. The Great Plains are dry because they're pretty
much in the rain shadow of the Rockies. Damp air from the Pacific drops
most of its moisture as it passes eastward over the repeated
north-south mountain ranges.

For example, I've been riding motorcycles up the front of the Greenhorn
mountain range for years on the Snow Slide trail. It starts half-way up
the front of the mountains near San Isabel, climbs about two thousand
feet, and reaches a huge large flat area on top, near a steep boulder
field running down the front of the mountain range that's visible for
fifty miles out on the plains. The rocks are usually snow-covered well
into summer, so it's known as the Snow Slide.

At the top, you ride across what's often a mile-long bog as late as
August to reach the Greenhorn Road that runs along the top of the
mountain range.

The trail is the dotted black "pack trail" heading southwest from the
highway just below
the red-circled "165" a bit south of San Isabel:

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=13&X=154&Y=1312&W=3

The trail starts half-way up the mountainside at about 2700 meters, or
8860 feet.

The wide bog on top is the huge white area at over 3405 meters, or
11,170 feet. The solid black line south of it is the Greenhorn Road, a
wide dirt fire road.

Of course, damp New England hasn't got any elevation as high as lowly
Pueblo, and my sister near Boston often mentions curious architectural
features like mud-rooms, where people leave their muddy boots.

Fenders, I hear, are routinely attached to bicycles in Massachusetts, a
fairly pointless bit of frippery for bicycling around Pueblo for about
350 days of the year.

But the fenders on my trials motorcycle are very useful up in the
mountains. After a typical ride, it takes about five minutes to hose
all the mud off the machine at a car wash.

Your mountains may be different.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 10 Oct 2006 10:13:41
From: Chris Y.F.N.W.
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Group: rec.bicycles.misc Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2006, 7:02pm (EDT-3) From:
carlfogel@comcast.net

>Dear Sheldon,

>The San Gabriels run right up next to
>Los Angeles.

>I dunno about how wet they are, though
>massive mud slides following forest fires
>and torrential rains make for entertaining
>reading if you like John McPhee (See
>"The Control of Nature" collection of his
>New Yorker pieces).

I used to live in El Lay, just 10 miles from the mighty San-gee's. they
are only wet and muddy (and pouring douwn on homes) in the late
winter-early spring, after the fires of autumn have removed most of the
vegitation. the rest of the year they are hot, dry and rocky.

So Cal doesn't see much moisture between the months of May and October.
Or as I like to say, Southern California has only three seasons: Green,
Brown, and Burning.

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

Date: 05 Oct 2006 18:45:11
From: bitwisebob
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

On 5 Oct 2006 13:59:54 -0700, "Sheldon Brown"
<CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

>My report:
>
>http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

looks like the Shimano Alfine shift gear indicator is upside down, the
numbers are upside down. I have the Shimano Nexus on my Bianchi
Milano and like the performance very much, this looks like a nice step
up, will be watching for bikes that offer the Shimano Alfine.

---
Bob Anderson*Bitwisebob
Eugene Oregon

Date: 05 Oct 2006 18:02:55
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

I linked to my report:

> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Which says among many other things:

"Kinda disappointed in Bianchi this year. They continue to believe that
disc brakes make sense on singlespeed bikes. This year they've got
three different singlespeed/disc mountain bikes and a singlespeed/disc
cyclocross bike as well!

"Using a disc brake means you can't use a flip-flop hub, so you'll be
stuck with only a single gear option.

"Also, as the chain wears and you move the wheel back in the axle
slots, the relationship between the disc and the caliper will change,
which is a Bad Thing.

"If you combine a disc brake with an old-fashioned rear-opening fork
end, as is currently fashionable, you have to undo the caliper just to
fix a flat tire!

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

There's no problem running a front disc if you prefer, but I'd strongly
advise going for a rim brake in back.

An anonymous poster replied:

> Nice report but I take much exception with this sentence:
> "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually _need_
> a rear disc brake."
>
> I don't ride an SS but the guys I ride with do and since we're on the same
> rides they definitely are riding "terrain mountainous enough". The San
> Gabriel Mtns are very steep and of average height, 5000ft to, well, 10,000ft
> with alot of trails climbing 3000 ft in only a couple of miles. No matter
> how the SSers get to the tops of those trails they still ride down them.
> And I'm sure there are plenty of SSers around the world riding similar
> terrain.

Of course all generalizations are false, but I'm gonna stand by that
one.

I generally take much exception to any claim that any cyclist "needs" a
particular feature anyway...

I haven't ridden in those mountains, wherever they are, but I am highly
dubious that a rear disc brake is actually needed to descend them. I
have no doubt that a rear disc brake might be nice to have there, but I
very much doubt that it would be as useful as a flip-flop hub to
someone who was into that sort of riding.

The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
this, I dunno.

I would imagine that the percentage of Bianchi's singlespeed customers
who will actually ride their bikes in major mountains is a pretty small
drop in the bucket.

Sheldon "Flip-Flop Fan" Brown

Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:04:12
From: Alan Hoyle
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> "Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
> _need_ a rear disc brake."

[snip]

> The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
> conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
> least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
> this, I dunno.

Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Date: 05 Oct 2006 17:34:41
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > My report:
> >
> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
> >
> > Sheldon "A Little Of This, A Little Of That" Brown

> Dear Sheldon,
>
> I look forward to the debate over chain streamlining:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/thumbnails/coastingchain.jpg
>

Those side plates are actually tiny zeppelins filled with hydrogen to
add lift. It's a new kind of "fuel cell" vehicle.

/gets coat.

Date: 06 Oct 2006 02:06:21
From: Blair P. Houghton
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>>
>> I look forward to the debate over chain streamlining:
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/thumbnails/coastingchain.jpg
>
>Those side plates are actually tiny zeppelins filled with hydrogen to
>add lift. It's a new kind of "fuel cell" vehicle.

I think it's really cool that they're wireless.

--Blair

Date: 05 Oct 2006 17:29:48
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>

Woohoo! Was that a 8spd Nexus *rapidfire* shifter I just saw!? I think
they never did better than the original thumbie for the Nexus 7. I
liked the feel and the groovy rotary dial. The disc brakes for the
Alfine group are totally overkill--but why the heck not? It's likely
going to be ridden by the creme of Amsterdam--they can't just have
pedestrian roller or drums. We'll likely see this groupset first on one
of those gorgeous Koga-Miyata, no?

Totally agree with you on the SS discs. I'm sure some folks can make
use of such braking power--but I'd reeeeally like to see a return to
good ole semi horizontal dropouts for bike that use a caliper brake.
Track ends strike me as more of a fashion statement for street use with
brakes and even fenders than a practical idea.

Date: 05 Oct 2006 16:01:52
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

"Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote in message
news:1160081994.462113.185060@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>

Nice report but I take much exception with this sentence:
"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually _need_
a rear disc brake."

I don't ride an SS but the guys I ride with do and since we're on the same
rides they definitely are riding "terrain mountainous enough". The San
Gabriel Mtns are very steep and of average height, 5000ft to, well, 10,000ft
with alot of trails climbing 3000 ft in only a couple of miles. No matter
how the SSers get to the tops of those trails they still ride down them.
And I'm sure there are plenty of SSers around the world riding similar
terrain.

Greg

Date: 05 Oct 2006 15:58:23
From: Sheldon Brown
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Dane Buson wrote:
> In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
> > My report:
> >
> > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> The first doubled cog from Surly should be 17-19, not 19-19, yes?
>
I'm always glad of proofreading help with my Website, I'm a fast but
not too accurate typist.

However, when you do spot a typo, it would be better to send me an
email, rather than posting to a Usenet group.

Sheldon "2 R Is Human" Brown

Date: 06 Oct 2006 04:17:08
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

In article
<1160089103.580315.170020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:

> Dane Buson wrote:
> > In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
> > > My report:
> > >
> > > http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
> >
> > The first doubled cog from Surly should be 17-19, not 19-19, yes?
> >
> I'm always glad of proofreading help with my Website, I'm a fast but
> not too accurate typist.
>
> However, when you do spot a typo, it would be better to send me an
> email, rather than posting to a Usenet group.

Since many of us visited the site and say the anamoly, a
message here in rec.bicycles.tech is also welcome; might
even spare you the extra email messages.

--
Michael Press

Date: 05 Oct 2006 15:43:01
From:
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
> Sheldon "A Little Of This, A Little Of That" Brown
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>

Date: 05 Oct 2006 14:49:06
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com > wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

The first doubled cog from Surly should be 17-19, not 19-19, yes?

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Chastity: the most unnatural of the sexual perversions."
-Aldous Huxley

Date: 05 Oct 2006 14:41:18
From: Diablo Scott
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Photo of special merit:
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

Date: 06 Oct 2006 02:03:23
From: Blair P. Houghton
Subject: Re: Sheldon Does Vegas

Diablo Scott <N0SPAMdiabloscott@terra.es > wrote:
>Sheldon Brown wrote:
>> My report:
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006
>
>Photo of special merit:
>http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

D'oh!

They took it while I was blinking!

--Blair
"And sitting in my livingroom
287 miles away."