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Main
Date: 14 Sep 2007 07:44:54
From:
Subject: Sidewalk bicycling?
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I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
considered 'unsafe'? As you long as you treat yourself as invisible
at each intersection, the sidewalk should be safer, no? I also like
sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
cared abuot time, I would be driving...
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Date: 07 Oct 2007 02:24:19
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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In article <1190245609.883886.221420@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com >,
Camilo <campascual@yahoo.com > writes:
> I don't understand this mirror business. I've been riding streets for
> 30 years including a lot of city street cycling in Chicago and other
> large cities. I've never used a mirror and can't imagine how they'd
> improve safety.
Many's the time I've glanced in my city-fied MTB's
handlebar mirror, to discover a wheel-sucker on my
six. I hand-signal my incipient turn-off, and they
back off. Then I don't turn off, but I end up
dropping the parasite. Especially if there's a
forthcoming upgrade I can fly up.
Mirrors don't necessarily improve safety. But they
can nevertheless enhance one's riding experience.
Mirrors are largely for foxing. It works with
upcoming cars on narrow side-streets, too.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 08:57:05
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Sep 14, 11:22 am, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net >
wrote:
> <oprah.cho...@gmail.com> wrote: (clip) If we can share the road with cars,
>
> why can't we share sidewalks with pedestrians? (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And by an extension of that logic, why not also let cars share sidewalks
> with bikes and pedestrians?
>
Or in Germany, why not let the cyclist ride on the roads??
> I ride on the sidewalk occasionally, if the road conditions make it
> preferable (in MY mind,) but I know it is not legally justifiable, and I
> lean way over backwards (figuratively) to make sure I do not cause any
> problems. Furthermore, if there were a problem, I know in advance whose
> fault it would be.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 06:36:39
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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Camilo wrote:
> I don't understand this mirror business. I've been riding streets
> for 30 years including a lot of city street cycling in Chicago and
I am not the type to place my life in inferior people's hands. Today
driver is multi-tasking , i,e juggling cell phone, cigarettes, kids,
radio station all with one hand. Why should I place my life in such
foolish people's hands? With the mirror I can check to see cars do
see me and are passing me with enough space.
You may have been lucky to survive 30 years without incident but I
would take a closer look at what today's drivers are doing before
blindly trusting your life to them.
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Date: 22 Sep 2007 03:09:15
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:36:39 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc,
oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not the type to place my life in inferior people's hands. Today
> driver is multi-tasking , i,e juggling cell phone, cigarettes, kids,
> radio station all with one hand. Why should I place my life in such
> foolish people's hands? With the mirror I can check to see cars do
> see me and are passing me with enough space.
>
i feel blind without my helmet mirror. and they do work, i've
been able to get out of the way of drunks coming up behind me.
and the kid with his arm out the pickup window to push me over
was sure surprised and sore when he got a really solid whack with
a tire pump as his buddy slowed down so he could hit me.
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 16:46:49
From: Camilo
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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On Sep 14, 6:44 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:....I also like
> sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
> cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
> something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
> cared abuot time, I would be driving...
You care about the speed you travel whether you're commuting or riding
for fitness. Sidewalks are made for walking (maybe jogging) speed.
Neither relaxed commuting nor vigorous riding are that slow.
I don't understand this mirror business. I've been riding streets for
30 years including a lot of city street cycling in Chicago and other
large cities. I've never used a mirror and can't imagine how they'd
improve safety.
Do you actually react to cars coming up behind you? I personally know
two people who have gotten hit from behind. Neither could have
prevented it with a mirror.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 01:27:40
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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On 2007-09-19, Camilo <campascual@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 14, 6:44 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:....I also like
>> sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
>> cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
>> something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
>> cared abuot time, I would be driving...
[..]
> I don't understand this mirror business. I've been riding streets for
> 30 years including a lot of city street cycling in Chicago and other
> large cities. I've never used a mirror and can't imagine how they'd
> improve safety.
I use a mirror because my ride home involves a left turn in heavy 35 MPH
traffic and sometimes, depending on my route, a left lane change in the
same conditions. The mirror isn't necessary but it saves me an awful lot
of head checks because I can watch the mirror for something that looks
like a gap in traffic before I look over my shoulder.
I have it set up so that I mostly see the next lane over while I'm
looking straight ahead. I can see directly behind me if I turn my head
slightly but I can't monitor that area constantly. I suspect I'd get
overly paranoid about overtaking traffic after a while if I could see
directly behind me at all times
I do think that mirrors improve safety in winter riding conditions,
again because they make for fewer head checks. When I'm riding on snow,
slush, and ice I don't want to take my eyes off the road and twist my
head around any more than necessary.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 00:58:47
From: Justa Lurker
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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Camilo wrote:
>
> I don't understand this mirror business. I've been riding streets for
> 30 years including a lot of city street cycling in Chicago and other
> large cities. I've never used a mirror and can't imagine how they'd
> improve safety.
>
> Do you actually react to cars coming up behind you? I personally know
> two people who have gotten hit from behind. Neither could have
> prevented it with a mirror.
>
Personally, I don't use mirrors. However, I wonder if some people do
find them helpful in checking for traffic coming upon them from behind,
in their blind spot, etc. before changing lanes, turning, or otherwise
pulling out into traffic. I would just turn my head quickly to check.
That seems to work fine (at least so far !) But this is the only reason
I could think of......
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 16:43:42
From: Camilo
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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On Sep 14, 6:27 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
...
> The basic problem with sidewalk riding is that it works fine, AS LONG AS
> YOU TRAVEL AT PEDESTRIAN SPEEDS.
>
> That's about 0-10 km/h. Maybe 15 km/h if you're really careful. Hint: if
> you were that careful, you probably wouldn't ride on the sidewalk.
+1. They are called sideWALKS for a reason. They are designed for
walkers, not riders.
Sidewalks are used by bicyclists who have an unrealistic view of the
danger of riding on the road vs. sideWALK, and /or are very slow and
timid riders. You cannot make good time safely on a sideWALK -
whether that be commuting speeds (slow, but much faster than walking
or running) or for fitness riding.
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 18:23:41
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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In article <7IOdnQU-AbMijHLbnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@ptd.net >,
"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > writes:
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
>> It seems to work fine as long as you ride as if you're a rolling
>> pedestrian -- ie, slowly.
>
> So, if you want to walk, walk.
That's what I generally do, myself. In some exceptional
circumstances I'll ride up onto, or across a sidewalk.
But I'd prefer not to have to.
But the bike-riding style to which Matt refers, is rampant
here in Vancouver. A pedestrian becomes used to encountering
sidewalk riders. It can be startling when they whiz by ya
from behind, but the incident is over by the time you realize
what happened. The rider is on his/her merry way, and you're
on yours. And there are certain local routes on which I'll
be more ... "understanding" of sidewalk riding. Particularly
along Marine Drive, between Cambie St and points eastward.
SE Marine Drive is a cyclists' deathtrap. Not because the
traffic is fast, but because it's so all-over-the-place.
Fast, linear traffic is trivial to deal with. But all-over-
the-place urban traffic is an horse of a different feather.
There have been local incidents of purse-snatchings
inflicted on Little Old Ladies, by desperate drogaddictos
crackhead sidewalk riders. Sometimes with dire results.
So sidewalk riding evokes fear & resentment in some folks.
That is most certainly /not/ what I want to do to my
fellow citizens.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 03:06:20
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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"Tom Keats" wrote: (clip) horse of a different feather. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:-)
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 10:34:03
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Sep 17, 11:30 am, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Sep 14, 9:29 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> > have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
> > that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
> > correct ).
>
> So, since there are few users that makes it OK to break the law? Does
> that mean it is OK for cars to break the law with regards to cyclists,
> since there are far fewer bikes vs. cars on many roads?
>
> I think that if cyclists knowingly act illegally and/or dangerously,
> they have no grounds to complain when other vehicles -- eg. cars -- do
> the same. You're holding other road users to a standard that you won't
> uphold. The only way mixed-mode transportation systems can work is if
> all users play by the rules.
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
What if it's legal to ride the sidewalk, as in downtown Seattle or
Madison?
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 19:14:24
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1190050443.251620.83530@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> What if it's legal to ride the sidewalk, as in downtown Seattle or
> Madison?
I ride the sidewalk in limited circumstances in downtown Seattle. For
example, if I am riding to the bus stop on 5th at Jackson, and there are
buses picking up passengers on Jackson, rather than do some sort of
complicated run around the buses, I will go up on the sidewalk. I announce,
"on the sidewalk!" and then take my speed 'way down, sometimes scootling
with my feet to the stop.
Another instance of riding on the sidewalk: due to odd one-way streets, if
I'm heading overall north from my workplace, I'll go one block the wrong way
on the sidewalk to get going the right direction. Since the hill is pretty
steep, sometimes I just walk the bike up - my speed either way is pretty
slow. Those who think I should only behave vehicularly can go the several
steep blocks out of their way to do that. For me, a half block up Madison at
3.6 mph isn't that troubling.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 17:30:10
From: Anthony DeLorenzo
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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On Sep 14, 9:29 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
> that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
> correct ).
So, since there are few users that makes it OK to break the law? Does
that mean it is OK for cars to break the law with regards to cyclists,
since there are far fewer bikes vs. cars on many roads?
I think that if cyclists knowingly act illegally and/or dangerously,
they have no grounds to complain when other vehicles -- eg. cars -- do
the same. You're holding other road users to a standard that you won't
uphold. The only way mixed-mode transportation systems can work is if
all users play by the rules.
Regards,
Anthony
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 17:23:56
From: SS
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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<oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189781094.444554.37910@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
> a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
> considered 'unsafe'? As you long as you treat yourself as invisible
> at each intersection, the sidewalk should be safer, no? I also like
> sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
> cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
> something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
> cared abuot time, I would be driving...
>
Americans don't walk anywhere anyway do they? All done by car, so pavements
will be empty mainly.
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 10:26:01
From: It's Chris
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
It's less safe for pedestrians, who now have to contend with a much
faster and less manuverable (relative to another pedestrian) bicycle on
a narrow path since sidewalks are made for foot traffic, not vehicles.
This makes riding on the sidewalk illegal in most states anyway. You
can, of course WALK your bike on the sidewalk
That's my 2=A2...
- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 08:53:33
From: Gooserider
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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<oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189781094.444554.37910@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
> a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
> considered 'unsafe'? As you long as you treat yourself as invisible
> at each intersection, the sidewalk should be safer, no? I also like
> sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
> cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
> something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
> cared abuot time, I would be driving...
There is one section of my route on which I use the sidewalk. I take a
divided 4 lane some of my route, and Florida will build roads with paved
shoulders OR sidewalks and curbs, but not both. Rather than share the lane
with high speed traffic for a mile, I take the sidewalk.
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:27:11
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
> been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
> found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
> dangerous as riding on roads.
Here are a few problems I have with these studies:
1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
naturally
accidents will be higher for them
2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
mature and aware of their surroundings
3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from, but a road
accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !
What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
unsafe in CERTAIN situations?
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 21:41:03
From: smn
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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<oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189819631.253757.243300@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
>> been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
>> found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
>> dangerous as riding on roads.
>
> Here are a few problems I have with these studies:
>
> 1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
> naturally
> accidents will be higher for them
>
> 2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
> mature and aware of their surroundings
>
> 3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from, but a road
> accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
> outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !
>
> What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
> road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
> unsafe in CERTAIN situations?
This article is real helpful for a beginner also. Covers beginning
maintenance, kinds of bikes, passing safely in traffic, and some such.
Jobst Brandt contributed pics.
http://www.mit.edu/~cforest/hobbies_cycling/Bike%20IAP%20Seminar%20Jan%2005.pdf
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 21:39:06
From: smn
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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<oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189819631.253757.243300@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
>> been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
>> found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
>> dangerous as riding on roads.
>
> Here are a few problems I have with these studies:
>
> 1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
> naturally
> accidents will be higher for them
>
> 2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
> mature and aware of their surroundings
>
> 3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from, but a road
> accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
> outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !
>
> What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
> road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
> unsafe in CERTAIN situations?
>
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 21:35:14
From: smn
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
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I really think this is what you are looking for.
"Effective cycling". John Forrester. He is the pioneer of this thing.
Don't want anyone here to beat you over the head with it though. : )
http://www.johnforester.com/
http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/hpv/2000-May/005176.html Comments
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 23:20:59
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> Here are a few problems I have with these studies:
>
> 1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
> naturally
> accidents will be higher for them
What? No.
>
> 2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
> mature and aware of their surroundings
Kids under 12 on kids' bikes are not what we are talking about.
>
> 3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from,
Maybe the pedestrian you hit won't, or, if it's a car that is turning
right and hits you, maybe not.
> accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
> outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !
Don't over-dramatize. You presume that sidewalk accidents are minor,
but road accidents are major. Not necessarily the case. Not counting
falls due to road surface problems, I can think of 3 accidents with cars
I've had on the road (while riding). None were major. None on the
sidewalk, seeing as how I don't ride there (beyond a few meters
occasionally while coming to a shop or some such thing).
>
> What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
> road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
> unsafe in CERTAIN situations?
>
I would suggest that, yes, you are. Granted, there are roads that are
unsafe to ride on. Most of those would be even more unsafe to ride next
to on a sidewalk. Those would be busy roads, and there would be
driveways and intersections.
--
David L. Johnson
"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 02:38:52
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
In article <1189819631.253757.243300@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
> > been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
> > found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
> > dangerous as riding on roads.
>
> Here are a few problems I have with these studies:
>
> 1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
> naturally
> accidents will be higher for them
That doesn't seem to be true:
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm
A study of 314 bicycles accidents over 4 years in Palo Alto, CA, and a
study of (non-crashing) bicyclist characteristics in that same city.
Conclusions:
1543 adult bicyclists observed, 278 on sidewalk.
> 2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
> mature and aware of their surroundings
The proportion of sidewalk riders in this observation, when correlated
with the location of reported accidents, strongly suggests that
sidewalk-riding is about 2.4 times as likely to get you into an accident
with a car as riding on the road (with traffic; riding against traffic
is even more dangerous than sidewalk riding).
> 3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from, but a road
> accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
> outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !
We're talking about car-bike crashes here. I'm not sure what scenarios
you're imagining where the car hits you more gently on the sidewalk.
> What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
> road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
> unsafe in CERTAIN situations?
Well, choosing roads that correspond with one's current confidence level
on a bike is a good start.
From that report:
"Roadways are designed to eliminate blind conflicts at intersections and
driveways; side?walks are not. This causal analysis lends credi?bility
to the statistical results showing increased accident rates on
sidewalks. It suggests that sidewalk bicycling, especially against the
direc?tion of traffic, is dangerous in itself, not because of some
extraneous characteristic that happens to be more common among sidewalk
riders. It also suggests that bicycle safety can be improved by
providing clear sight lines at the intersection of sidewalks with
streets and drive?ways, and, in some cases, by prohibiting bicycling on
sidewalks or by restricting its direction through signs or ordinances."
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 00:33:21
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Sep 14, 6:02 pm, D_Frumiou...@ndersnat.ch wrote:
> rdclark <rdcla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 14, 10:44 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> > > the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> > 1) Driveways.
> > 2) Pedestrians.
> > 3) The law.
>
> And of course, there's:
>
> Mailboxes
> Tricycles
> Toys
> Hoses
> Trash, out of and in
> Trash cans
> Shrubbery
> Gates
> Parked cars
> Kids on bikes
> Other sidewalk cyclists going the opposite directions
> Signs
> Irregular pavement
> and my personal favorite: low-hanging tree branches.
Good list. For more detail on one item: The "irregular pavement"
often includes the edge of the sidewalk itself. It's often a sharp,
square dropoff into grass. If you weave and your front wheel drops
off that thing, you're almost certainly going down.
Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
dangerous as riding on roads.
Those numbers are by memory. If anyone's really interested, I can try
to dig out the exact numbers with citations.
- Frank Krygowski
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:56:48
From: John Thompson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On 2007-09-14, oprah.chopra@gmail.com <oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote:
> I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
> a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
> considered 'unsafe'?
One word: "driveways"
> As you long as you treat yourself as invisible at each intersection,
Read: "each driveway"
--
John (john@os2.dhs.org)
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 21:01:37
From: DennisTheBald
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
> Yes; it's called a Michigan Left.
In Detroit they have signs notifying drivers that this is the
preferred method of turning left at upcoming intersections.
Sometimes I find my self making "michigan straights", right, u and
then right turns to circumvent a traffic control device. There are
not many intersections where this is warranted, but when it is it is.
There are someplaces where the sidewalk is marked as a bike path, a
MUP if you will... These things are generally chuck full of peds,
sk8tors, and dog feces. I guess I like my odds with the nimrods in
hotrods better. Also, few places post a speed limit on a MUP, but
conventional wisdom tells us that it would be bad to run over a ped no
matter how wobbly their line was - so people tend to go slower, say
15mph, on these sidewalks.
YMMV, if you are happy riding on the sidewalk and Barney Fife will
leave you alone then why would I twist my nickers over it. There are
places where I do it (like to get to my alley which doesn't have a
break in the median).
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 17:09:46
From: bdbafh
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Sep 14, 12:29 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> rdclark wrote:
> > 1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
> > fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
> > a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
> > ride is to always be predictable.
>
> All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
> driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
> minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?
>
> > 2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
> > there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
> > a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
>
> I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
> come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
> them slowly.
>
> If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?
>
> > 3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
> > moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.
>
> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
> that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
> correct ).
>
> > Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
> > road apply.
>
> If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
> pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
> as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?
Huh?
> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities,
> but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA.
> ( Ok I just pulled that number from the air,
> but I would not be surprised if it is correct ).
Are you channeling Dick Pound?
The only time its appropriate for the bike to be on the sidewalk is
when you're sitting outside at a cafe/restaurant having a meal and
beverage after a ride.
You are over 12 years of age, no?
-bdbafh
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:45:45
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:09:46 -0000, bdbafh <bdbafh@gmail.com > wrote:
>The only time its appropriate for the bike to be on the sidewalk is
>when you're sitting outside at a cafe/restaurant having a meal and
>beverage after a ride.
>
>You are over 12 years of age, no?
>
>-bdbafh
I don't know of any cyclists that haven't used the sidewalk to ride,
though most only do it (where safe) for a few meters.
I've been at some intersections that were just so weird that it was
better to cross the street and ride (uphill) on the opposite side of
the street sidewalk so I can go left. Believe me, I do -not- like
doing that, but it happens. Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
degrees. Ever had to do that? :)
I've also ridden in areas where they've modified the sidewalks (which
are very wide) and have them listed as -part- of the bike route, with
arrows and lines painted on the sidewalk. (problem is, coming up to a
divided highway intersection, riding back home, going against traffic.
Yikes!)
If every state does it differently and within the state it differs,
how does one keep up with it all? Better to let the bicycle rider
determine if it's necessary or safe(er), imo.
I'm certainly not advocating it. Best to keep it unstated and
practiced infrequently, maybe. No reason to be smug about it, though.
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 23:08:25
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
Biker52 wrote:
>
> I don't know of any cyclists that haven't used the sidewalk to ride,
> though most only do it (where safe) for a few meters.
>
This guy isn't talking about a few meters.
> I've been at some intersections that were just so weird that it was
> better to cross the street and ride (uphill) on the opposite side of
> the street sidewalk so I can go left. Believe me, I do -not- like
> doing that, but it happens. Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
> make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
> degrees. Ever had to do that? :)
Sure, and I have also gotten off my bike and walked across a busy
street. You do what is necessary. But riding along, for several
blocks, on a sidewalk is not necessary, and not safe.
>
> I've also ridden in areas where they've modified the sidewalks (which
> are very wide) and have them listed as -part- of the bike route, with
> arrows and lines painted on the sidewalk.
That was mentioned earlier as an exception. That is when a sidewalk is
not a sidewalk, but a MUP.
--
David L. Johnson
"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 14:37:10
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
To the OP: I ride in mostly residential areas. Sidewalks are a royal
pain to navigate when running on road bike tires. As bad as the roadway
may be, it is always smoother for me to ride on the road. Probably
nearly everybody rides on the sidewalk sometimes. If you are new to
cycling, it may seem like it is a terrific idea to ride on the sidewalk,
but after you have ridden for a while and get more comfortable on the
road, you will understand what everyone's saying on this thread.
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 21:57:12
From: smn
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
"catzz66" <catzz66@threeletterservice.com > wrote in message
news:5l0677F5o0vsU1@mid.individual.net...
> To the OP: I ride in mostly residential areas. Sidewalks are a royal
> pain to navigate when running on road bike tires. As bad as the roadway
> may be, it is always smoother for me to ride on the road. Probably nearly
> everybody rides on the sidewalk sometimes. If you are new to cycling, it
> may seem like it is a terrific idea to ride on the sidewalk, but after you
> have ridden for a while and get more comfortable on the road, you will
> understand what everyone's saying on this thread.
good point catzz66
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:43:43
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On 2007-09-14, Biker52 <B52@verizon.net > wrote:
>
> Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
> make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
> degrees. Ever had to do that? :)
Yes; it's called a Michigan Left.
--
__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 09:29:50
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
rdclark wrote:
> 1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
> fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
> a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
> ride is to always be predictable.
All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?
> 2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
> there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
> a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
them slowly.
If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?
> 3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
> moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.
Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
correct ).
> Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
> road apply.
If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 23:05:12
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> rdclark wrote:
>> 1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
>> fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
>> a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
>> ride is to always be predictable.
>
> All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
> driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
> minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?
No, that's not it. You also have to worry about drivers driving into
driveways, without looking for you on the sidewalk. This is especially
stupid if there are trees or parked cars blocking the driver's view of
you -- but the plain fact is that he/she would not be looking for you on
the sidewalk, because you belong on the road.
>
>> 2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
>> there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
>> a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
>
> I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great.
I could do that with a car, or a motorcycle, as well, both of which come
with horns. That does not make it safe, nor legal.
> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
> that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
> correct ).
Just the occasional little kid, who will not expect you to come
barreling down the sidewalk. Don't you get it?
>
>> Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
>> road apply.
>
> If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
> pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
> as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?
Nope.
>
--
David L. Johnson
"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:34:40
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:05:12 -0400, David L. Johnson wrote:
> oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
>> rdclark wrote:
>>> 1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for fast
>>> movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because a bike is
>>> so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to ride is to
>>> always be predictable.
>>
>> All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
>> driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this minimal
>> situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?
>
> No, that's not it. You also have to worry about drivers driving into
> driveways, without looking for you on the sidewalk. This is especially
> stupid if there are trees or parked cars blocking the driver's view of
> you -- but the plain fact is that he/she would not be looking for you on
> the sidewalk, because you belong on the road.
>
>
>>> 2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
>>> there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually a
>>> multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
>>
>> I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great.
>
> I could do that with a car, or a motorcycle, as well, both of which come
> with horns. That does not make it safe, nor legal.
>
>> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
>> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled that
>> number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is correct ).
>
> Just the occasional little kid, who will not expect you to come
> barreling down the sidewalk. Don't you get it?
>
>
>>> Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
>>> road apply.
>>
>> If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
>> pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long as
>> you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?
>
> Nope.
It seems to work fine as long as you ride as if you're a rolling
pedestrian -- ie, slowly.
It works for millions of Japanese.
This summer I spent a couple of weeks in my hometown in southern CA, where
cycling is trendy again among teenagers and young adults. Most people
ride beach cruisers at low speeds on both sidewalks and streets, whatever
suits them at the moment. If traffic is light they ride in the street.
If not they ride on the sidewalk, in crosswalks, through parking lots and
plazas, on the street against traffic, etc. Almost no one wears a helmet,
or uses lights or reflectors at night. They use cell phones and iPods
while riding, and carry cups of coffee. Thousands of people do this, and
it seems to work fine.
Heresy, I know. But it's sure great to see so many people on bikes again,
especially kids!
Matt O.
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 19:46:36
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
Matt O'Toole wrote:
> It seems to work fine as long as you ride as if you're a rolling
> pedestrian -- ie, slowly.
So, if you want to walk, walk.
--
David L. Johnson
"What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
What are you on?"
--Lance Armstrong
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 10:15:25
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
David L. Johnson <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:
> oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
>> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
>> that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
>> correct ).
>
> Just the occasional little kid, who will not expect you to come
> barreling down the sidewalk. Don't you get it?
It doesn't have to be a little kid. I nearly took out a teenage girl
when she *sprinted* out of her driveway [1]. I was on a wider sidewalk
which of part of the MUT I take to work. I wasn't going full speed
thankfully, so I could avoid her.
[1] Which had an extensive hedgeline, so I couldn't see her until she
was just about on the MUT.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"I am convinced that the manufacturers of carpet odor removing powder
have included encapsulated time released cat urine in their products.
This technology must be what prevented its distribution during my mom's
reign. My carpet smells like piss, and I don't have a cat. Better go
buy some more." -- timw@zeb.USWest.COM
|
| | |
Date: 15 Sep 2007 02:27:40
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
In article <1189787390.198846.140510@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> rdclark wrote:
> > 1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
> > fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
> > a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
> > ride is to always be predictable.
>
> All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
> driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
> minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?
Actually, no.
The basic problem with sidewalk riding is that it works fine, AS LONG AS
YOU TRAVEL AT PEDESTRIAN SPEEDS.
That's about 0-10 km/h. Maybe 15 km/h if you're really careful. Hint: if
you were that careful, you probably wouldn't ride on the sidewalk.
Where you're going to run into problems (and the fact you haven't
realized it suggests how sidewalk riders get into trouble) is with
vehicles ENTERING driveways and turning (especially right) at
intersections. In each of these cases, the driver is expecting to look
for pedestrians within a very short distance of the road (typically,
they're thinking within a few feet of the roadway).
You're able to come from a long way out, if you're traveling at faster
than ped speeds. It's even worse than it seems, what with stopping
distances increasing with an exponent greater than 1. Or some such. I'm
a bit bizarre at maths, so the key is that doubling one's speed more
than doubles the stopping distance. Which means you not only show up
when you're least expected, you have less chance (than a ped) of coming
up short.
> > 2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
> > there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
> > a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
>
> I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
> come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
> them slowly.
> If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?
You're imposing on the safety of pedestrians for your own (false sense
of) safety. If you don't think there's a good reason for this, let me
tell you about an acquaintance who died in a cyclist-rollerblader
collision.
> > 3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
> > moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.
>
> Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
> have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
> that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
> correct ).
Oh, who knows, really? But the key is that any one sidewalk rider is
probably a lot like the other sidewalk riders
> > Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
> > road apply.
>
> If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
> pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
> as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?
Given that such a parameter should keep you at or below pedestrian
speeds, might I suggest stepping off your bicycle and walking?
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Sep 2007 21:55:40
From: smn
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
You're able to come from a long way out, if you're traveling at faster
than ped speeds. It's even worse than it seems, what with stopping
distances increasing with an exponent greater than 1. Or some such. I'm
a bit bizarre at maths, so the key is that doubling one's speed more
than doubles the stopping distance. Which means you not only show up
when you're least expected, you have less chance (than a ped) of coming
up short.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
As long as she knows she is the last person to cross the intersection or
driveway and sometimes miss the light all together. Being in an unsafe
place all the time makes you the soul person responsible for letting them
act like you are invisible. And since she does not care about the time
spent going from A-B as she already stated it would be fine. Most people
here would think that is too much compromising and I do not know how you can
keep up 15mph. That is my average street speed up and down hill and just
stopping for intersections. Your running time is probably closer to 1-10mph
like another poster suggested.
I would think you are also making drivers a little frustrated with
bikers.
They might signal for you to go first and then there is that delay of should
you take the opportunity or let him rightfully go first.
Just my two cents
thanks for listening
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:22:35
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
<oprah.chopra@gmail.com > wrote: (clip) If we can share the road with cars,
why can't we share sidewalks with pedestrians? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And by an extension of that logic, why not also let cars share sidewalks
with bikes and pedestrians?
I ride on the sidewalk occasionally, if the road conditions make it
preferable (in MY mind,) but I know it is not legally justifiable, and I
lean way over backwards (figuratively) to make sure I do not cause any
problems. Furthermore, if there were a problem, I know in advance whose
fault it would be.
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:59:43
From: John Thompson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On 2007-09-14, Leo Lichtman <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
><oprah.chopra@gmail.com> wrote: (clip) If we can share the road with cars,
> why can't we share sidewalks with pedestrians? (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And by an extension of that logic, why not also let cars share sidewalks
> with bikes and pedestrians?
Or, in a similar vein: why not expect cars to safely share the road with
bicycles and pedestrians? Why is it the non-motorized transportation
that get treated as second class?
--
John (john@os2.dhs.org)
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 23:13:22
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
John Thompson wrote:
> Or, in a similar vein: why not expect cars to safely share the road with
> bicycles and pedestrians? Why is it the non-motorized transportation
> that get treated as second class?
>
True enough, but you're pissin' upwind with that idea. People think
they are minor dictators when they get behind the wheel. Their rights
are so much more important than the rights of anyone else. And the rest
of us let them get away with it. Listen to what happens when a car
turns onto the road. Everyone grabs their kids and dogs, and runs for
cover. A car is coming! Oh, my god! Run for your life! I am so tired
of that.
--
David L. Johnson
"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 07:55:03
From: rdclark
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
On Sep 14, 10:44 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
> a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
> considered 'unsafe'? As you long as you treat yourself as invisible
> at each intersection, the sidewalk should be safer, no? I also like
> sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
> cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
> something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
> cared abuot time, I would be driving...
1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for fast-
movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because a bike is
so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to ride is to
always be predictable.
2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually a
multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.
3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places, moreso
the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.
Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.
r
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2007 22:02:12
From:
Subject: Re: Sidewalk bicycling?
|
rdclark <rdclark2@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 14, 10:44 am, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
> > the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
> 1) Driveways.
> 2) Pedestrians.
> 3) The law.
And of course, there's:
Mailboxes
Tricycles
Toys
Hoses
Trash, out of and in
Trash cans
Shrubbery
Gates
Parked cars
Kids on bikes
Other sidewalk cyclists going the opposite directions
Signs
Irregular pavement
and my personal favorite: low-hanging tree branches.
Bill
------------------------------------------------
|
|
