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Main
Date: 04 Dec 2006 13:29:43
From: Daniel Norton
Subject: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
reasons:
1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
Use a reflector, but not the ASAE SMV emblem.
cf. ASAE 276.5, 2005
--
Daniel
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 05:34:27
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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"Daniel Norton" <danorton@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165267783.729513.212280@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
>
> Use a reflector, but not the ASAE SMV emblem.
>
> cf. ASAE 276.5, 2005
>
> --
> Daniel
>
It is simply a form of taxation. The government first makes up a story -
excuse for the emblem being needed.
Then they charge everyone a fee to get the emblem. Then they require you to
put it on your vehicle. If you get caught without it there is a fine
involved.
How does putting a tiny little emblem on a bicycle (or anything for that
matter) helps motorists to not hit you and go around safely instead?
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 05:49:35
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:Cqqdnbymw6tdN-vYnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> How does putting a tiny little emblem on a bicycle (or anything for that
> matter) helps motorists to not hit you and go around safely instead?
Tiny? Those things are usually fairly large, and worn on the back of the
cyclist, or on a trunk or pannier.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 01:23:46
From: Paul Hobson
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Cqqdnbymw6tdN-vYnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>> How does putting a tiny little emblem on a bicycle (or anything for that
>> matter) helps motorists to not hit you and go around safely instead?
>
>
> Tiny? Those things are usually fairly large, and worn on the back of the
> cyclist, or on a trunk or pannier.
>
Additionally, if they are known and recognized as indicating "something
slow that you shouldn't hit," cagers might figure out what to do before
they figure out that it's a person on a bike.
--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
.:change the f to ph to reply:.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:45:42
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:29:43 -0800, Daniel Norton wrote:
> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
Which?
> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
How?
> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem,
Again, how?
> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
How does a bike not meet this criterion?
Explain.
Matt O.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 10:01:23
From:
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Daniel Norton wrote:
> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
>
> Use a reflector, but not the ASAE SMV emblem.
>
> cf. ASAE 276.5, 2005
>
> --
> Daniel
I have a homebuilt cargo trike, and while it's classified as a bicycle
(in terms of vehicular definition), it is also over 4 feet wide and so
I take the whole lane. And due to that I decided an SMV sign was not a
bad idea, even if not mandatory.
http://drumbent.com/trike/trikebikes1.jpg
k
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 18:53:52
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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The basic point of the SMV sign is to increase the conspicuity of the
slow vehicle to provide early warning to faster drivers. The bright
orange does this well during daytime, and the bordering reflective
material works at night. The shape of the sign is irrelevant, but since
it is an official warning sign it does have to have some standardized
design. It's the color that works though, not the shape.
Bicyclists have many options to enhance their rear facing conspicuity,
including bright clothing. Having something hi-viz lessens the chance of
the "I didn't see him" excuse.
Wayne
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 17:07:35
From: Ron Hardin
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Daniel Norton wrote:
>
> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
>
> Use a reflector, but not the ASAE SMV emblem.
>
> cf. ASAE 276.5, 2005
>
> --
> Daniel
I use them all the time. They work great.
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin/bike.jpg
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin/heelbike.jpg
--
Ron Hardin
rhhardin@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:19:33
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 04:23:12 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:
> Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
> meet the other requirements, though.
>
An option there is reflective tape on the sides of the cranks. I did this
once upon a time. Now, though, I just use lights and the miscellaneous
reflectors on (apparently) all biking clothing and bags.
--
David L. Johnson
__o
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 20:28:23
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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"Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > writes:
> Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
> meet the other requirements, though.
I add reflective tape to the back of my clipless pedals and bike
shoes to make them more visible.
--
"[Modern] war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects,
and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory,
but to keep the structure of society intact."
--George Orwell, _1984_
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 14:39:58
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:28:23 -0800, Ben Pfaff wrote:
> "Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
>> meet the other requirements, though.
>
> I add reflective tape to the back of my clipless pedals and bike
> shoes to make them more visible.
I have some on the heels of my Sidis. Why Sidis don't come with
reflective patches, like every other sport shoe on the planet, is beyond
me. Must be an Italian macho thing.
I also have some on my rims. Why the garish logos on rims can't be
reflective is beyond me too -- especially with the prices they charge for
wheels these days.
Back to the original subject, I see nothing wrong with a slow moving
vehicle emblem on a bike.
Matt O.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 20:24:44
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > writes:
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15 -0800, peter wrote:
>
>> You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
>> but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
>> yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
>> white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
>> The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
>> in lieu of other reflectors.
>>
>> Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
>> around 0%.
>
> Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
> reflectors. What happened to yours?
Plenty of new bikes *don't* come with the required reflectors.
For example, the Trek 2300 that I bought from a downtown Palo
Alto bike shop a few years ago came with *zero* reflectors.
--
Ben Pfaff
email: blp@cs.stanford.edu
web: http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 23:42:52
From: Solvang Cyclist
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in
news:87mz63x94j.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org:
> Plenty of new bikes *don't* come with the required reflectors.
> For example, the Trek 2300 that I bought from a downtown Palo
> Alto bike shop a few years ago came with *zero* reflectors.
I'm quite certain that all new bikes in California *do* come with the
required reflectors, but that doesn't mean that the LBS actually installs
them.
I recently bought a new "high end" bike and the shop had me initial various
legal statements on a form before I took delivery. Including one that
stated that my bike had the required reflectors. It did come with them: The
shop owner handed them to me right before he offered to dispose of them
properly. <grin >
Cheers,
David
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 05:52:18
From: Grolch
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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I'm afraid of Traffic, DRESS LOUDLY, FLAGS, BLINKERS, REFLECTORS, TAPE!!!,
Whatever ever it takes to be seen. Of coarse, I ride pretty much where I'm
expected to be, yet still pretend I'm invisible. Best to be ware in this
CARS FIRST world.
Grolsch
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87mz63x94j.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15 -0800, peter wrote:
>>
>>> You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
>>> but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
>>> yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
>>> white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
>>> The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
>>> in lieu of other reflectors.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
>>> around 0%.
>>
>> Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
>> reflectors. What happened to yours?
>
> Plenty of new bikes *don't* come with the required reflectors.
> For example, the Trek 2300 that I bought from a downtown Palo
> Alto bike shop a few years ago came with *zero* reflectors.
> --
> Ben Pfaff
> email: blp@cs.stanford.edu
> web: http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15
From: peter
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Mike Kruger wrote:
> Darin McGrew wrote:
> > Daniel Norton <danorton@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> >> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> >> reasons:
...
> > Not that I display an ASAE SMV emblem on my bicycle, but if the
> > emblem is appropriate for an Amish horse-drawn carriage, then using
> > it on a bicycle or other HPV doesn't seem to distort or detract from
> > the emblem's meaning.
I agree; my bicycle rarely travels over 25 mph and is almost always
operated on public roadways so I wouldn't see anything wrong with
having a SMV emblem attached if I were so inclined.
> Even the existing laws are not
> complied with (In Illinois, these call for a front light and a rear red
> reflector with optional rear red light. I amuse myself when commuting at
> night counting how many cyclists are compliant -- it's usually well under
> half).
You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
in lieu of other reflectors.
Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
around 0%.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 23:09:42
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15 -0800, peter wrote:
> You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
> but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
> yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
> white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
> The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
> in lieu of other reflectors.
>
> Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
> around 0%.
Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
reflectors. What happened to yours?
Matt O.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 04:23:12
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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"Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote in message
news:pan.2006.12.05.04.09.41.649696@letterboxes.org...
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15 -0800, peter wrote:
>
>> You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
>> but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
>> yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
>> white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
>> The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
>> in lieu of other reflectors.
>>
>> Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
>> around 0%.
>
> Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
> reflectors. What happened to yours?
Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
meet the other requirements, though.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:56:07
From: Paul Hobson
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
>> Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
>> reflectors. What happened to yours?
Claire Petersky wrote:
> Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
> meet the other requirements, though.
My shoes (Shimano) came with reflective emblems on the back of the them.
I figured this was common practice. Do your shoes not have such
emblems? Would mine be compliant under laws such as these?
(I think GA law only specifies white front and red rear lights visible
from a certain distance, so it really doesn't matter I suppose)
\\paul
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:32:58
From: Pat Lamb
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.12.05.04.09.41.649696@letterboxes.org...
>> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:49:15 -0800, peter wrote:
>>
>>> You're lucky. California law (VC 21201d) requires the items you listed
>>> but also requires a white or yellow reflector on each pedal, a white or
>>> yellow reflector on each side of the front half of the bicycle, and a
>>> white or red reflector on each side of the back half of the bicycle.
>>> The latter two requirements can be met using approved reflective tires
>>> in lieu of other reflectors.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, full compliance during night-time riding hovers right
>>> around 0%.
>> Oh, it's better than that. All new bikes come with the required
>> reflectors. What happened to yours?
>
>
> Well, I can tell you right now, my spd pedals don't have reflectors. I can
> meet the other requirements, though.
It'd be kind of hard to get reflectors on my Frogs. Since I'm usually
commuting with panniers, I'm not sure how visible reflectors would be if
they WERE on the pedals!
Pat
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 21:54:43
From: Darin McGrew
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Daniel Norton <danorton@gmail.com > wrote:
> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
Okay, I'll bite. In what way is it "contrary to the ASAE standard", and in
what way does it distort and detract from "the true meaning of the emblem"?
Also, do you think my bicycle is not a vehicle, or do you think it is
designed to travel faster than 25 mph?
Not that I display an ASAE SMV emblem on my bicycle, but if the emblem is
appropriate for an Amish horse-drawn carriage, then using it on a bicycle
or other HPV doesn't seem to distort or detract from the emblem's meaning.
IMHO and all that...
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"Warning: Dates in the calendar are closer than they appear."
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 02:17:53
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Slow-Moving Vehicle Emblem - Misuse
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Darin McGrew wrote:
> Daniel Norton <danorton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've seen various discussions of the Slow-Moving Vehicle (SMV) emblem
>> being used on bicycles, but it's not a good idea for a number of
>> reasons:
>>
>> 1) It's illegal in some jurisdictions,
>> 2) It's contrary to the ASAE standard that created the emblem,
>> 3) It distorts and detracts from the true meaning of the emblem, and
>> 4) It is intended for vehicles designed to travel slower than 25 mph.
>
> Okay, I'll bite. In what way is it "contrary to the ASAE standard",
> and in what way does it distort and detract from "the true meaning of
> the emblem"?
>
> Also, do you think my bicycle is not a vehicle, or do you think it is
> designed to travel faster than 25 mph?
>
> Not that I display an ASAE SMV emblem on my bicycle, but if the
> emblem is appropriate for an Amish horse-drawn carriage, then using
> it on a bicycle or other HPV doesn't seem to distort or detract from
> the emblem's meaning.
>
The actual ANSI/ASAE standard is available here:
http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ANSI%2FASAE+S276.6+JAN2005
but it's $40 and I'm really not that interested. The abstract seems to
support your (Darin's) points:
"This Standard establishes specifications that define a unique
identification emblem, the Slow Moving Vehicle Emblem (SMV Emblem), to be
used only for slow moving machines (vehicles), when operated or traveling on
public roads. The requirements and applications of the standard are defined
in the standard. The purpose is to communicate to third parties the slower
speed capabilities of the slow moving vehicle to other vehicle(s) using
public roads. The priy application of this SMV emblem will be with
implements of husbandry but may be used with other machines or vehicles that
travel at speeds less than 40 km/h (25 mile/h)"
But, I suppose it's confusing if there are classes that are pretty much
required/expected to use this (farm equipment) and other classes whose usage
would be at best haphazard (bicycles). Even the existing laws are not
complied with (In Illinois, these call for a front light and a rear red
reflector with optional rear red light. I amuse myself when commuting at
night counting how many cyclists are compliant -- it's usually well under
half).
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