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Main
Date: 10 Sep 2007 12:57:33
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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So, I got a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign at a
traffic stakeout (for San Diegans, near Bird Rock in La Jolla). Boo hoo.
When my 'courtesy notice' arrived, it indicated that I was *not* eligible
for traffic school. Since I have an immaculate motor vehicle driving record,
I was interested in enrolling in traffic school to keep points off of my record.
I phoned the traffic court, and after eventually getting through to someone, I was
told that since the citation was issued for a bicyclist, traffic school was not an
option and that points *wouldn't* be assessed on my record. My only penalty would
be the fine (~$120).
This is basically good news, and makes sense, and that's why in the context of a
bureaucracy like the DMV and vehicle code I don't believe it.
I tried to find verification through the numbingly complex and poorly searchable
online version of the California Vehicle Code and failed.
My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't accrue points
on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC that covers
this?
Thanks,
DH
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 16:52:35
From: Jorg Lueke
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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On Sep 12, 9:16 pm, Dane Buson <d...@unseen.edu > wrote:
> Roger Zoul <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come to a
> > complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes, anywho).
>
> I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth a
> damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a second
> or so) and then start going again.
>
Not me, I tried this again inadvertently recently and toppled over
like the previus time I didn't unclip.
For stops with little or no traffic I do slow down to a near stop but
I typically don't touch my feet to the ground or stand completely
still.
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 19:55:09
From:
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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On Sep 12, 6:35 pm, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> In those flat places you can coast usually slow at a stop and then ease on
> through. I think it registers with any reasonable person as a stop.
I once did that at a four-way stop directly in front of a cop. No
other cars were present.
My deceleration was pretty strong, so he could tell I was paying
attention to the sign. I just didn't decelerate all the way to zero.
Maybe I went down to 2 or 3 mph.
I'm not sure if he was conscious of what I was doing. I was very
conscious, and looked on it as a little experiment. A successful
one. I rode on undisturbed, and he passed me without a blink.
It's one time that cops' habitual blind eye toward bike infractions
can actually do us a little good.
- Frank Krygowski
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 12:26:19
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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David Horwitt wrote:
>
> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't
> accrue points
> on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC
> that covers
> this?
To answer my own question, further googling indicated that I should check
CVC 12810 (Violation Point Count). Clause (f) indicates that, for all other
violations not specified, "... conviction involving ... a _motor vehicle_ ...
shall be given a value of one point".
So I guess that I'm only out the $$$, and that no points will go on my
permanent record.
Thanks for a lively discussion that, in fine USENET tradition, never really
addressed the question I originally posed.
DH
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 20:53:18
From: mark
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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David Horwitt wrote:
>
> Thanks for a lively discussion that, in fine USENET tradition, never really
> addressed the question I originally posed.
>
> DH
We did stay more or less on topic, though, which isn't quite in keeping
with USENET tradition.
mark
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 15:39:33
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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David Horwitt wrote:
:: David Horwitt wrote:
:::
::: My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction
::: doesn't accrue points
::: on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC
::: that covers
::: this?
::
:: To answer my own question, further googling indicated that I should
:: check CVC 12810 (Violation Point Count). Clause (f) indicates that,
:: for all other violations not specified, "... conviction involving
:: ... a _motor vehicle_ ... shall be given a value of one point".
::
:: So I guess that I'm only out the $$$, and that no points will go on
:: my permanent record.
::
:: Thanks for a lively discussion that, in fine USENET tradition, never
:: really addressed the question I originally posed.
::
:: DH
That's because the answer was buried in the code, and we'd rather ride than
read it! :)
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 22:18:44
From: DennisTheBald
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't accrue points
> on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC that covers
> this?
I'm only familiar with the Uniform Vehicle Code, not the CVC... Does
California require bicyclists to have a drivers license? Most states
don't. In the future I would produce alternate identification, say a
passport.
If you could turn loose of that car you wouldn't have to worry about
points. You really don't need it nearly as much as you think you do,
even in California.
I think you should fight the ticket, take your bike into the court and
demonstrate that even though your feet didn't leave the pedals you
were at a complete stop and just because the lard-assed patrolman
can't do a track stand doesn't mean it's impossible, but then I roll
like that.
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 17:29:30
From: mark
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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"DennisTheBald" wrote >
> I'm only familiar with the Uniform Vehicle Code, not the CVC... Does
> California require bicyclists to have a drivers license? Most states
> don't. In the future I would produce alternate identification, say a
> passport.
A better alternate ID would be a California state ID issued to non-drivers
by the DMV.
>
<snip >.
>
> I think you should fight the ticket, take your bike into the court and
> demonstrate that even though your feet didn't leave the pedals you
> were at a complete stop and just because the lard-assed patrolman
> can't do a track stand doesn't mean it's impossible, but then I roll
> like that.
>
Where did the OP state that he did a track stand, or that he can even do a
track stand? For that matter, what evidence do you have that the patrolman
is "lard-assed", or that the patrolman can't do a track stand?
mark
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 04:10:07
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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"mark" wrote: Where did the OP state that he did a track stand, or that he
can even do a track stand? For that matter, what evidence do you have that
the patrolman is "lard-assed", or that the patrolman can't do a track
stand?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
David, from the fact that you don't seem to be claiming that the citation
was unfair, I gather that you did actually roll through the stop sign, but
you haven't actually said so. Out of curiosity, how fast were you going at
the point where you should have stopped?
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 09:59:07
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Leo Lichtman wrote:
> David, from the fact that you don't seem to be claiming that the citation
> was unfair, I gather that you did actually roll through the stop sign, but
> you haven't actually said so. Out of curiosity, how fast were you going at
> the point where you should have stopped?
>
>
I slowed down from about 18MPH to 8-10 at a 4-way stop with good visibility,
observed that there was no traffic at any of the other points, and continued
on.
Ironically, this is a normally busy area. If there had been more traffic
(any cars at or approaching the intersection) I would have stopped.
DH
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 14:03:10
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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David Horwitt wrote:
:: Leo Lichtman wrote:
::: David, from the fact that you don't seem to be claiming that the
::: citation was unfair, I gather that you did actually roll through
::: the stop sign, but you haven't actually said so. Out of curiosity,
::: how fast were you going at the point where you should have stopped?
:::
:::
:: I slowed down from about 18MPH to 8-10 at a 4-way stop with good
:: visibility, observed that there was no traffic at any of the other
:: points, and continued on.
::
Not that my opinion counts for jack, but IMO you did stop. You cut your
speed by half and took the time to make sure there was no traffic near or
entering the intersection. The way was clear and you carried on. You used
your brain ane no one was put in danger.
Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come to a
complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes, anywho). Why
don't they make drives stop & open the door and put one foot on the ground?
That's basically what the laws (key point) is requiring of cyclists.
You'd likely lose if you tried to fight your ticket, but if you have nothing
better to do at the time, you might just make some noise! :)
:: Ironically, this is a normally busy area. If there had been more
:: traffic (any cars at or approaching the intersection) I would have
:: stopped.
::
:: DH
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 13:16:33
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come to a
> complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes, anywho).
I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth a
damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a second
or so) and then start going again.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Hey, Mr Nyatharlothep, tally me Cthulhu,
six foot, seven foot, eight foot ... TEETH!
Daylight come, and me wanna go.... AAAAAAAARRRRRRRrrrrgh
nononononostoppleaseGodsavemeArrrrrrrrrrrrghch...!"
--David Cameron Staples in the Monastery
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:13:12
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:16:33 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu >
wrote:
>Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come to a
>> complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes, anywho).
>
>I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth a
>damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a second
>or so) and then start going again.
Just got a new bike and was -extremely- surprised that I can not do
this on it.
I abruptly fall over.
On my old Al Trek, I can trackstand for a few seconds quite easily.
Shocked the heck outta me the new one would be different!
It -feels- like the wheelbase is shorter, but this is a 56 and the old
one is a 54. (both Trek), as though the front wheel is behind the
balance point or something. OTOH, the bike tracks well and riding no
hands is now possible (I could not ride no-hands on the other bike.)
I have no idea why this would be. I could always ride the old steel
bikes and pedal no hands, no problem. I can ride my brother's bike no
hands. But not the Al Trek.
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 17:33:08
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Dane Buson wrote:
:: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
:::
::: Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come
::: to a complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes,
::: anywho).
::
:: I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth a
:: damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a
:: second or so) and then start going again.
Can you do this on any road surface without fail? I've been at stop signs
on steep but short inclines and punched it because otherwise I'd have to
dismount.
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 14:53:00
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> :::
> ::: Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot come
> ::: to a complete stop without dismounting (on recent model bikes,
> ::: anywho).
> ::
> :: I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth a
> :: damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a
> :: second or so) and then start going again.
>
> Can you do this on any road surface without fail? I've been at stop signs
> on steep but short inclines and punched it because otherwise I'd have to
> dismount.
Hmmm, I don't rightly know. Uphills are usually actually easier (if I'm
in the right gearing). Downhills shouldn't be too bad. Most of the
places I feel like a complete stop is necessary (mainly because the
Mercer Island cops like to park for speed enforcement right by them) are
fairly flat.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
If society fits you comfortably enough, you call it freedom.
-- Robert Frost
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 18:35:19
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Dane Buson wrote:
:: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
::: Dane Buson wrote:
::::: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
::::::
:::::: Bikes aren't like cars. Unless you can trackstand, you cannot
:::::: come to a complete stop without dismounting (on recent model
:::::: bikes, anywho).
:::::
::::: I think that's a bit of an exageration. I can't trackstand worth
::::: a damn, but I can come to a complete stop on the bike (for half a
::::: second or so) and then start going again.
:::
::: Can you do this on any road surface without fail? I've been at
::: stop signs on steep but short inclines and punched it because
::: otherwise I'd have to dismount.
::
:: Hmmm, I don't rightly know. Uphills are usually actually easier (if
:: I'm in the right gearing). Downhills shouldn't be too bad. Most of
:: the places I feel like a complete stop is necessary (mainly because
:: the Mercer Island cops like to park for speed enforcement right by
:: them) are fairly flat.
::
In those flat places you can coast usually slow at a stop and then ease on
through. I think it registers with any reasonable person as a stop.
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 09:34:11
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
> ::
> :: Hmmm, I don't rightly know. Uphills are usually actually easier (if
> :: I'm in the right gearing). Downhills shouldn't be too bad. Most of
> :: the places I feel like a complete stop is necessary (mainly because
> :: the Mercer Island cops like to park for speed enforcement right by
> :: them) are fairly flat.
>
> In those flat places you can coast usually slow at a stop and then ease on
> through. I think it registers with any reasonable person as a stop.
True, but the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground. It seems to
be seasonal, usually around June is when I hear the most reports of it.
Once the seasonal bikers and people training for STP stop commuting they
seem to relax.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"When people are free to do as they please, they usually
imitate each other." -Eric Hoffer
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 19:01:27
From: John Thompson
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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On 2007-09-14, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu > wrote:
> the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
> cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground.
Do they expect car drivers to put a foot on the ground to prove that
they have actually stopped? If not, why not?
--
John (john@os2.dhs.org)
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 07:42:19
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
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"John Thompson" <john@vector.os2.dhs.org > wrote in message
news:slrnfem86n.ebv.john@vector.os2.dhs.org...
> On 2007-09-14, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu> wrote:
>
>> the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
>> cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground.
>
> Do they expect car drivers to put a foot on the ground to prove that
> they have actually stopped? If not, why not?
This issue was discussed *extensively* on the local boards (with people
saying the same thing as John above), and the eventual word from the Mercer
Island chief of police on was that no, you didn't have to put your foot
down.
Like Dane, I also come across Mercer Island when commuting. There's a couple
of four-way stops where they tend to lurk, and Dane's right - mostly in May
and June. If you keep an eye out, you can avoid citation.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 14:59:01
From: Frank Drackman
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
"Claire Petersky" <cpetersky@mouse-potato.com > wrote in message
news:13enrptk8kt91e6@corp.supernews.com...
> "John Thompson" <john@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnfem86n.ebv.john@vector.os2.dhs.org...
>> On 2007-09-14, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
>>> cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground.
>>
>> Do they expect car drivers to put a foot on the ground to prove that
>> they have actually stopped? If not, why not?
>
>
> This issue was discussed *extensively* on the local boards (with people
> saying the same thing as John above), and the eventual word from the
> Mercer Island chief of police on was that no, you didn't have to put your
> foot down.
>
> Like Dane, I also come across Mercer Island when commuting. There's a
> couple of four-way stops where they tend to lurk, and Dane's right -
> mostly in May and June. If you keep an eye out, you can avoid citation.
>
> --
>
Officials also tend to tell cycling groups in advance when they are about to
start an enforcement program. If you miss the official warnings the message
boards usually fill up quickly with sighting of the officers.
In the past few years I haven't seen any radar traps on the bike path. Did
they stop the speed enforcement or have I just missed them?
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:40:09
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Dane Buson wrote:
:: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
::: Dane Buson wrote:
:::::
::::: Hmmm, I don't rightly know. Uphills are usually actually easier
::::: (if I'm in the right gearing). Downhills shouldn't be too bad.
::::: Most of the places I feel like a complete stop is necessary
::::: (mainly because the Mercer Island cops like to park for speed
::::: enforcement right by them) are fairly flat.
:::
::: In those flat places you can coast usually slow at a stop and then
::: ease on through. I think it registers with any reasonable person
::: as a stop.
::
:: True, but the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
:: cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground. It seems
:: to be seasonal, usually around June is when I hear the most reports
:: of it. Once the seasonal bikers and people training for STP stop
:: commuting they seem to relax.
Well, police are human just like us. Judgment calls get made every moment
of the day by everyone. Sometimes our judgment conflicts with that of
others. With police, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't! :)
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:22:34
From: Biker52
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:34:11 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu >
wrote:
>Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Dane Buson wrote:
>> ::
>> :: Hmmm, I don't rightly know. Uphills are usually actually easier (if
>> :: I'm in the right gearing). Downhills shouldn't be too bad. Most of
>> :: the places I feel like a complete stop is necessary (mainly because
>> :: the Mercer Island cops like to park for speed enforcement right by
>> :: them) are fairly flat.
>>
>> In those flat places you can coast usually slow at a stop and then ease on
>> through. I think it registers with any reasonable person as a stop.
>
>True, but the Mercer Island police have given tickets in the past to
>cyclists who do not actually put their foot on the ground. It seems to
>be seasonal, usually around June is when I hear the most reports of it.
>Once the seasonal bikers and people training for STP stop commuting they
>seem to relax.
In Utah, Montana, and pending in Calif. cyclists can treat Stop signs
as yield signs. (obviously they wouldn't do this if it was inherently
unsafe).
--------
MOTOR VEHICLES
CHAPTER 7
PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS.
(1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching
a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before
entering the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or
stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in
the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that
a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the
right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed
through the intersection without stopping.
---------
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 10:08:02
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Biker52 wrote:
>
> In Utah, Montana, and pending in Calif. cyclists can treat Stop signs
> as yield signs. (obviously they wouldn't do this if it was inherently
> unsafe).
> --------
> MOTOR VEHICLES
> CHAPTER 7
> PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
>
> 49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS.
>
> (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching
> a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before
> entering the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or
> stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in
> the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
> constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
> across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that
> a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the
> right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed
> through the intersection without stopping.
> ---------
>
Could you please post your source for your assertion that this modification to the
vehicle code is pending in California?
Thanks,
DH
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Date: 14 Sep 2007 13:38:03
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Biker52 wrote:
:: In Utah, Montana, and pending in Calif. cyclists can treat Stop signs
:: as yield signs. (obviously they wouldn't do this if it was inherently
:: unsafe).
:: --------
:: MOTOR VEHICLES
:: CHAPTER 7
:: PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
::
:: 49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS.
::
:: (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching
:: a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before
:: entering the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or
:: stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in
:: the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
:: constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
:: across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except
:: that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the
:: right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed
:: through the intersection without stopping.
:: ---------
Wow...that sounds very progressive and definitely pro-cycling or
pro-cyclist. I do wonder a bit about the wording, though, for it seems that
there may be some strangeness for the cyclist after you slow or stop and
then enter the intersection. Seems that at that point, anyone else coming
into it (whether right or wrong, appropriately or not) now has the *legal*
right of way. While I do think a cyclist should always yield to the heavier
vehicle, I just wonder if the wording could be used against a cyclist who
happened to be behaving correctly & resonsibly while some moron decides to
come blasting through. Once things get to court, the wording might make
some difference in assigning blame.
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 19:21:34
From: Steven S
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:13elho7savt4143@news.supernews.com...
> Biker52 wrote:
> :: In Utah, Montana, and pending in Calif. cyclists can treat Stop signs
> :: as yield signs. (obviously they wouldn't do this if it was inherently
> :: unsafe).
> :: --------
> :: MOTOR VEHICLES
> :: CHAPTER 7
> :: PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
> ::
> :: 49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS.
> ::
> :: (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching
> :: a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before
> :: entering the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or
> :: stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in
> :: the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
> :: constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
> :: across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except
> :: that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the
> :: right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed
> :: through the intersection without stopping.
> :: ---------
>
> Wow...that sounds very progressive and definitely pro-cycling or
> pro-cyclist. I do wonder a bit about the wording, though, for it seems
> that there may be some strangeness for the cyclist after you slow or stop
> and then enter the intersection. Seems that at that point, anyone else
> coming into it (whether right or wrong, appropriately or not) now has the
> *legal* right of way. While I do think a cyclist should always yield to
> the heavier vehicle, I just wonder if the wording could be used against a
> cyclist who happened to be behaving correctly & resonsibly while some
> moron decides to come blasting through. Once things get to court, the
> wording might make some difference in assigning blame.
I wish they had that here in Chicago. However, I do that anyways. I commute
19 miles each way, twice daily and I counted one day 45 stop lights and 23
stopsigns [each way]. Fortunately enforcement of bike violations by CPD is
pretty sparce.
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 19:18:52
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
"Roger Zoul" wrote: IMO(clip) you did stop. You cut your speed by half
and took the time to make sure there was no traffic near or entering the
intersection. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I fully agree with your reasoning, but I think a 10 mph rolling stop in
front of a police officer is pushing it. Most cars don't come to a full
stop either, except when the traffic conditions dictate. The law doesn't
say you are allowed to turn a stop sign into a yield sign, but most police
officers use some discretion in this area.
Because there was a police car behind me recently, I came up to a stop sign
and actually touched my foot to the pavement, something I would not normally
do. We have no way of knowing whether a cop is a law liberal or a prick, or
what mood he is in. Wayne, I suggest that you did not see the cop, or you
wouldn't have rolled through anywhere near that fast, and that means that
you didn't REALLY see everything as you went through.
To your credit, you're not claiming that the ticket was unfair.
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Date: 12 Sep 2007 05:21:50
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Leo Lichtman wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote: IMO(clip) you did stop. You cut your speed by
:: half and took the time to make sure there was no traffic near or
:: entering the intersection. (clip)
:: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:: I fully agree with your reasoning, but I think a 10 mph rolling stop
:: in front of a police officer is pushing it.
Yeah, you're right. Perhaps 3 mph might have worked...especially if you see
the officer and wave... :)
Police get really upset if you act as if they aren't there....
Most cars don't come to
:: a full stop either, except when the traffic conditions dictate. The
:: law doesn't say you are allowed to turn a stop sign into a yield
:: sign, but most police officers use some discretion in this area.
::
:: Because there was a police car behind me recently, I came up to a
:: stop sign and actually touched my foot to the pavement, something I
:: would not normally do. We have no way of knowing whether a cop is a
:: law liberal or a prick, or what mood he is in. Wayne, I suggest
:: that you did not see the cop, or you wouldn't have rolled through
:: anywhere near that fast, and that means that you didn't REALLY see
:: everything as you went through.
::
:: To your credit, you're not claiming that the ticket was unfair.
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 12:31:19
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Roger Zoul" wrote: IMO(clip) you did stop. You cut your speed by half
> and took the time to make sure there was no traffic near or entering the
> intersection. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I fully agree with your reasoning, but I think a 10 mph rolling stop in
> front of a police officer is pushing it. Most cars don't come to a full
> stop either, except when the traffic conditions dictate. The law doesn't
> say you are allowed to turn a stop sign into a yield sign, but most police
> officers use some discretion in this area.
>
> Because there was a police car behind me recently, I came up to a stop sign
> and actually touched my foot to the pavement, something I would not normally
> do. We have no way of knowing whether a cop is a law liberal or a prick, or
> what mood he is in. Wayne, I suggest that you did not see the cop, or you
> wouldn't have rolled through anywhere near that fast, and that means that
> you didn't REALLY see everything as you went through.
>
> To your credit, you're not claiming that the ticket was unfair.
>
>
By "Wayne" you mean "David".
Embarassingly enough, I *did* see the police car parked on the perpindicular
street. It was a huge Suburban-SUV thing, and I figured that it was some special
police ops kind of vehicle, and not involved in traffic enforcement.
My bad.
DH
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 13:19:36
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
David Horwitt wrote:
> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>
>> David, from the fact that you don't seem to be claiming that the
>> citation was unfair, I gather that you did actually roll through the
>> stop sign, but you haven't actually said so. Out of curiosity, how
>> fast were you going at the point where you should have stopped?
>>
> I slowed down from about 18MPH to 8-10 at a 4-way stop with good
> visibility,
> observed that there was no traffic at any of the other points, and
> continued
> on.
>
> Ironically, this is a normally busy area. If there had been more traffic
> (any cars at or approaching the intersection) I would have stopped.
>
4-way stops are discouraged in engineering guidelines. Why stop
everyone? They especially punish bicyclists, who are best served by
yield signs and small traffic circles.
Wayne
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Date: 11 Sep 2007 10:10:00
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
David Horwitt wrote:
> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>> David, from the fact that you don't seem to be claiming that the
>> citation was unfair, I gather that you did actually roll through the
>> stop sign, but you haven't actually said so. Out of curiosity, how
>> fast were you going at the point where you should have stopped?
>>
>>
> I slowed down from about 18MPH to 8-10 at a 4-way stop with good
> visibility, observed that there was no traffic at any of the other
> points, and continued on.
>
> Ironically, this is a normally busy area. If there had been more
> traffic (any cars at or approaching the intersection) I would have
> stopped.
Was this out on LJ Blvd.? You might try the surface streets right along the
coast for nicer views with less and slower traffic. (Even if commuting and
not just a pleasure or exercise ride.)
Bill "on lookout now...thanks" S.
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 22:38:58
From:
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Dennis who? writes:
>> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction
>> doesn't accrue points on my driving record? Could you cite the
>> relevant portion of the CVC that covers this?
> I'm only familiar with the Uniform Vehicle Code, not the CVC... Does
> California require bicyclists to have a drivers license? Most states
> don't. In the future I would produce alternate identification, say a
> passport.
If you carry no identification the citing officer in CA will ask for
your address and that will quickly give your drivers license number
and other details. If you don't furnish sufficient evidence of who
you are, you can be taken to jail until you are properly identified.
> If you could turn loose of that car you wouldn't have to worry about
> points. You really don't need it nearly as much as you think you
> do, even in California.
That may seem a clever method, but the police don't like unidentified
people and especially ones that can identify themselves and not give
an address, such as by credit cards or passport.
> I think you should fight the ticket, take your bike into the court and
> demonstrate that even though your feet didn't leave the pedals you
> were at a complete stop and just because the lard-assed patrolman
> can't do a track stand doesn't mean it's impossible, but then I roll
> like that.
Not a good idea. You have no proof and a police officer is a sworn
public servant whose testimony has more weight than bicyclists claims
of having stopped when the officer says he observed a roll-through
action.
Name calling doesn't improve the credibility of your scenario either.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 23:20:41
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
>> If you could turn loose of that car you wouldn't have to worry about
>> points. You really don't need it nearly as much as you think you
>> do, even in California.
>
> That may seem a clever method, but the police don't like unidentified
> people and especially ones that can identify themselves and not give
> an address, such as by credit cards or passport.
He's talking about points relating to insurance rates, which would be
irrelevant if he didn't own a car.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:46e5c782$0$14142$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Dennis who? writes:
>
>>> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction
>>> doesn't accrue points on my driving record? Could you cite the
>>> relevant portion of the CVC that covers this?
>
>> I'm only familiar with the Uniform Vehicle Code, not the CVC... Does
>> California require bicyclists to have a drivers license? Most states
>> don't. In the future I would produce alternate identification, say a
>> passport.
>
> If you carry no identification the citing officer in CA will ask for
> your address and that will quickly give your drivers license number
> and other details. If you don't furnish sufficient evidence of who
> you are, you can be taken to jail until you are properly identified.
>
>> If you could turn loose of that car you wouldn't have to worry about
>> points. You really don't need it nearly as much as you think you
>> do, even in California.
>
> That may seem a clever method, but the police don't like unidentified
> people and especially ones that can identify themselves and not give
> an address, such as by credit cards or passport.
>
>> I think you should fight the ticket, take your bike into the court and
>> demonstrate that even though your feet didn't leave the pedals you
>> were at a complete stop and just because the lard-assed patrolman
>> can't do a track stand doesn't mean it's impossible, but then I roll
>> like that.
>
> Not a good idea. You have no proof and a police officer is a sworn
> public servant whose testimony has more weight than bicyclists claims
> of having stopped when the officer says he observed a roll-through
> action.
>
> Name calling doesn't improve the credibility of your scenario either.
>
> Jobst Brandt
|
| |
Date: 10 Sep 2007 22:03:10
From:
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
David Horwitt writes:
> So, I got a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign
> at a traffic stakeout (for San Diegans, near Bird Rock in La
> Jolla). Boo hoo.
> When my 'courtesy notice' arrived, it indicated that I was *not*
> eligible for traffic school. Since I have an immaculate motor
> vehicle driving record, I was interested in enrolling in traffic
> school to keep points off of my record.
> I phoned the traffic court, and after eventually getting through to
> someone, I was told that since the citation was issued for a
> bicyclist, traffic school was not an option and that points
> *wouldn't* be assessed on my record. My only penalty would be the
> fine (~$120).
> This is basically good news, and makes sense, and that's why in the
> context of a bureaucracy like the DMV and vehicle code I don't
> believe it.
> I tried to find verification through the numbingly complex and
> poorly searchable online version of the California Vehicle Code and
> failed.
> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction
> doesn't accrue points on my driving record? Could you cite the
> relevant portion of the CVC that covers this?
In my experience the citation is coded to reflect that it is a bicycle
violation. Therefore, anyone who processes such things will recognize
that. I think if you ask, your policeman can explain the citation
code listed on your ticket.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 15:27:37
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> David Horwitt writes:
>
>>My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction
>>doesn't accrue points on my driving record? Could you cite the
>>relevant portion of the CVC that covers this?
>
>
> In my experience the citation is coded to reflect that it is a bicycle
> violation. Therefore, anyone who processes such things will recognize
> that. I think if you ask, your policeman can explain the citation
> code listed on your ticket.
>
The citation notes that the violating vehicle was a
bicycle. The violation code is CVC 22450(a) (failure to stop), which
is motor/nonmotor vehicle neutral.
The question I have is that I didn't think that the law/penalty
differentiated between 'bicycle violations' and 'motor vehicle'
violations. It apparently does, but I'm seeking independent verification
from the wisdom of the Internet.
DH
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| |
Date: 10 Sep 2007 14:38:17
From: Road Dog
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
David Horwitt wrote:
>
> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't
> accrue points
> on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC
> that covers
> this?
Did they get your license number ? If so, CVC or not, a clerk
may make the mistake and put it on your record. If not, CVC
or not, they may have no way to match you to the record.
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 15:02:39
From: David Horwitt
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
Road Dog wrote:
> David Horwitt wrote:
>
>>My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't
>>accrue points
>>on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC
>>that covers
>>this?
>
>
> Did they get your license number ? If so, CVC or not, a clerk
> may make the mistake and put it on your record. If not, CVC
> or not, they may have no way to match you to the record.
Yes, the driver's license number is correctly entered on the citation.
Of course, mistakes may always occur, but I'm more interested now in
what the law actually is, and whether the clerk I spoke to was correct.
DH
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Date: 10 Sep 2007 13:38:45
From: Lynne Fitz
Subject: Re: Stop sign citation penalty (Ca,USA)
|
My. In Oregon, the fine for running a stop ranges from $242
(Portland) to $300 (North Plains). Portland has a Special Cyclist
Traffic School.
On Sep 10, 12:57 pm, David Horwitt <dbo...@aogsquid.ucsd.edu > wrote:
> So, I got a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign at a
> traffic stakeout (for San Diegans, near Bird Rock in La Jolla). Boo hoo.
>
> When my 'courtesy notice' arrived, it indicated that I was *not* eligible
> for traffic school. Since I have an immaculate motor vehicle driving record,
> I was interested in enrolling in traffic school to keep points off of my record.
>
> I phoned the traffic court, and after eventually getting through to someone, I was
> told that since the citation was issued for a bicyclist, traffic school was not an
> option and that points *wouldn't* be assessed on my record. My only penalty would
> be the fine (~$120).
>
> This is basically good news, and makes sense, and that's why in the context of a
> bureaucracy like the DMV and vehicle code I don't believe it.
>
> I tried to find verification through the numbingly complex and poorly searchable
> online version of the California Vehicle Code and failed.
>
> My question is: Is what I was told true, that this infraction doesn't accrue points
> on my driving record? Could you cite the relevant portion of the CVC that covers
> this?
>
> Thanks,
> DH
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