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Main
Date: 23 Apr 2007 09:01:12
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: ??The future of cycling???
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The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
(there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 06:37:44
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
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On Apr 29, 1:41 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1177815984.132577.33...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 28, 12:01 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > > In article <1177773944.579760.319...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
>
> > > Well, first it should be pointed out they've been selling this
> > > drivetrain (Shimano Auto-D) in Europe and Asia for some time.
>
> > When did they begin selling this scheme in those markets?
>
> I'm not sure about exact dates, but I think if I dig around I have a
> catalog from a few years ago that shows Auto-D as a product.
>
>
>
> > > Shimano always throws a lot of ideas at the marketplace. It's pretty
> > > much their corporate philosophy. Their history is littered with the
> > > wreckage of ideas that crashed and burned: Positron, Dura-Ace AX,
> > > Airlines air shifters, Biopace, and others past and present.
>
> > > The point is that some of these were good ideas, some bad, some both,
> > > but they have to be seen in the context of ideas like SIS/STI indexing,
> > > which was an idea that pretty much instantly popped Shimano into its
> > > present "brand S" market dominance.
>
> > My issue with Shimano is their history of leaving buyers 'high and
> > dry' when they move on to "the next great new thing". I appreciate
> > their history of innovation, but I dislike their history of not
> > supporting past product. Shimano's history is littered with examples
> > of this behavior. It is particularly annoying when Shimano introduces
> > a "new standard", then abandons it a few years later. IMO, this is in
> > the process of happening right now with the Octalink BB/crank
> > interface. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of
> > cyclists were more or less 'force fed' Octalink and would have been
> > better served with the old square taper standard.
>
> Heavier cyclists than I have pointed out both their problems with square
> taper and the trouble with Octalink.
>
> I don't buy into the "Shimano=orphans" mantra all that much. The rafts
> of stuff out in the market mean that NOS for even their worst ideas last
> much longer than any conceivable need for it. Even today, a determined
> buyer can find AX components if they really need them (and who does?).
>
> As for Octalink, well, it's going away someday, but here it is:
>
> http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%...
> Eprd_id=845524441784053&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050590&ASSORTMENT
> %3C%3East_id=1408474395181674&bmUID=1177832064233
>
> Erk.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2dcwf2
>
> The ES25 BB. Still in the catalog.
>
> As for what will happen to bikes that currently have Octalink BBs, well,
> I suspect that when they need replacement BBs, the stuff will be in
> shops for a good number of years.
Small point the ES version of Octalink is for some of their MTB cranks
mostly. The XTR, and all road types except for very low end Sora( I
think), use the smaller splined BBs..
>
> Indeed, I was curious as to what their support was like for the
> long-dead SPD-R standard, so I checked.
>
> They still sell the cleats:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/23pm4k
>
> Meanwhile, there are still people happily riding around on Biopace
> rings, and for the most part, if they know where to shop, there's plenty
> more to be had.
I think the issue is not shimano's support but the idea that as the
gorilla in the room, they make a 'standard', like Octalink, use the
cyclist to test it, realize it ain't that great, and then come out
with a new 'standard'..Hollowtech II.
Octalink was on their high end cranks for only about 8 years, a short
run as bike stuff goes.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 30 Apr 2007 03:43:48
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
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In article <1177853864.895142.67170@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Apr 29, 1:41 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > In article <1177815984.132577.33...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > I don't buy into the "Shimano=orphans" mantra all that much. The rafts
> > of stuff out in the market mean that NOS for even their worst ideas last
> > much longer than any conceivable need for it. Even today, a determined
> > buyer can find AX components if they really need them (and who does?).
> >
> > As for Octalink, well, it's going away someday, but here it is:
> > http://tinyurl.com/2dcwf2
[oops...snipped Peter's point about the two versions of Octalink]
> > Indeed, I was curious as to what their support was like for the
> > long-dead SPD-R standard, so I checked.
> >
> > They still sell the cleats:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/23pm4k
> >
> > Meanwhile, there are still people happily riding around on Biopace
> > rings, and for the most part, if they know where to shop, there's plenty
> > more to be had.
>
> I think the issue is not shimano's support but the idea that as the
> gorilla in the room, they make a 'standard', like Octalink, use the
> cyclist to test it, realize it ain't that great, and then come out
> with a new 'standard'..Hollowtech II.
> Octalink was on their high end cranks for only about 8 years, a short
> run as bike stuff goes.
How long did centre-pull as the hot braking setup last? Various Suntour
failures? Zap? Mektronic? Delta brakes? Syncro? Syncro 2? Euclid?
In fairness, Syncro stuff apparently works in friction mode, too.
The habit of experimenting on customers does not seem to be unique to
Shimano. One could write a multi-volume book on cycling failures, and
there's rather few companies (and virtually no drivetrain component
makers) who are immune to presenting failed ideas.
Heck, however fast Octalink was born and died, ISIS actually managed the
same trick even faster, and with a similarly spectacular life limitation
(too-small bearings instead of spline wear). In fairness, both have been
superseded by various external-bearing designs. Indeed, the ISIS spline
survives as the free crank attachment on some of the external-bearing
designs.
(If I may digress for a moment, anyone feel that current BB designs seem
utterly driven by the universal reluctance to adopt an oversized BB
standard, a la that Pinarello thing?)
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 01 May 2007 09:18:36
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In rec.bicycles.misc Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote:
>
> (If I may digress for a moment, anyone feel that current BB designs seem
> utterly driven by the universal reluctance to adopt an oversized BB
> standard, a la that Pinarello thing?)
Of course, they could just adopt the American BB size (i.e. BMX). That
would take advantage of all the tooling and parts that are readily
available for that market. I have a bike I just picked up with that
type of BB, but due to one thing and another I'm actually using BB
converters to take it to a 'standard' size BB.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
Some of my readers ask me what a "Serial Port" is.
The answer is: I don't know.
Is it some kind of wine you have with breakfast?
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Date: 01 May 2007 17:57:33
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
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Dane Buson wrote:
> In rec.bicycles.misc Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
>> (If I may digress for a moment, anyone feel that current BB designs seem
>> utterly driven by the universal reluctance to adopt an oversized BB
>> standard, a la that Pinarello thing?)
>
> Of course, they could just adopt the American BB size (i.e. BMX). That
> would take advantage of all the tooling and parts that are readily
> available for that market. I have a bike I just picked up with that
> type of BB, but due to one thing and another I'm actually using BB
> converters to take it to a 'standard' size BB.
>
Is there an actual standard? I have 3 mountain bikes and one has a very
small BB and will take a 20 tooth 'Super granny'. The others will only
go down to 24. I haven't dug out my road Schwinn, if it even counts.
Only a question here.
Bill Baka
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Date: 01 May 2007 21:28:45
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <hcLZh.20495$Um6.1044@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net >,
Bill <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
> > In rec.bicycles.misc Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
> >> (If I may digress for a moment, anyone feel that current BB designs seem
> >> utterly driven by the universal reluctance to adopt an oversized BB
> >> standard, a la that Pinarello thing?)
> >
> > Of course, they could just adopt the American BB size (i.e. BMX). That
> > would take advantage of all the tooling and parts that are readily
> > available for that market. I have a bike I just picked up with that
> > type of BB, but due to one thing and another I'm actually using BB
> > converters to take it to a 'standard' size BB.
> >
> Is there an actual standard? I have 3 mountain bikes and one has a very
> small BB and will take a 20 tooth 'Super granny'. The others will only
> go down to 24. I haven't dug out my road Schwinn, if it even counts.
> Only a question here.
> Bill Baka
There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press into
place.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which is
a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain bikes (ie
ISO threads).
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 02 May 2007 00:21:00
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
> which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press into
> place.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
>
> The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
That one sentence explains it all to me now. The hated 1-piece crank.
> Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which is
> a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain bikes (ie
> ISO threads).
>
If I see a one piece crank on a bike for sale I just do a U-turn.
I cringe when I see "China" on something I am going to have to work on.
Bill Baka
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Date: 02 May 2007 05:39:36
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <MPQZh.15813$YL5.11556@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net >,
Bill <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >
> > There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
> > which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press into
> > place.
> >
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
> >
> > The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
>
> That one sentence explains it all to me now. The hated 1-piece crank.
Well, the BB is not responsible for the sins of the crank. 3-piece
cranks are available for this BB size, and are among the toughest
components out there:
http://www.profileracing.com/products_home.php?productid=1
> > Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which is
> > a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain bikes (ie
> > ISO threads).
> >
> If I see a one piece crank on a bike for sale I just do a U-turn.
> I cringe when I see "China" on something I am going to have to work on.
> Bill Baka
Well, the other class of bikes that have 1-piece cranks are some nice
old American bikes (think post-war adult bicycles; the equivalent of the
Raleigh 3-speeds). But yes, it's virtually always a sign of trouble on a
recent MTB.
The BB shell, however, has some merit as a standard that could solve the
small-bearing-area issue currently being fixed with external-bearing
BBs. It's big enough, and it's already there.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 02 May 2007 00:49:47
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>> There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
>>> which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press into
>>> place.
>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
>>> The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
> Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
>> That one sentence explains it all to me now. The hated 1-piece crank.
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Well, the BB is not responsible for the sins of the crank. 3-piece
> cranks are available for this BB size, and are among the toughest
> components out there:
> http://www.profileracing.com/products_home.php?productid=1
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>> Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which is
>>> a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain bikes (ie
>>> ISO threads).
> Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
>> If I see a one piece crank on a bike for sale I just do a U-turn.
>> I cringe when I see "China" on something I am going to have to work on.
>> Bill Baka
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Well, the other class of bikes that have 1-piece cranks are some nice
> old American bikes (think post-war adult bicycles; the equivalent of the
> Raleigh 3-speeds). But yes, it's virtually always a sign of trouble on a
> recent MTB.
>
> The BB shell, however, has some merit as a standard that could solve the
> small-bearing-area issue currently being fixed with external-bearing
> BBs. It's big enough, and it's already there.
Great page! Very entertaining. I'll surely avoid the killer wrap!
There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 02 May 2007 06:45:20
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <133g9ld65qei53@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >>> There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
> >>> which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press into
> >>> place.
> >>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
> >>> The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
>
> > Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> That one sentence explains it all to me now. The hated 1-piece crank.
>
> >> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Well, the BB is not responsible for the sins of the crank. 3-piece
> > cranks are available for this BB size, and are among the toughest
> > components out there:
> > http://www.profileracing.com/products_home.php?productid=1
>
> >> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >>> Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which is
> >>> a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain bikes (ie
> >>> ISO threads).
>
> > Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> If I see a one piece crank on a bike for sale I just do a U-turn.
> >> I cringe when I see "China" on something I am going to have to work on.
> >> Bill Baka
>
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Well, the other class of bikes that have 1-piece cranks are some nice
> > old American bikes (think post-war adult bicycles; the equivalent of the
> > Raleigh 3-speeds). But yes, it's virtually always a sign of trouble on a
> > recent MTB.
> >
> > The BB shell, however, has some merit as a standard that could solve the
> > small-bearing-area issue currently being fixed with external-bearing
> > BBs. It's big enough, and it's already there.
>
> Great page! Very entertaining. I'll surely avoid the killer wrap!
I...am confused...
> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
Hm. First Shimano cribs Hollowtech II from Bullseye, and now it turns
out Campy cribbed Ultra-Torque from Profile!
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 02 May 2007 15:40:37
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> I...am confused...
My mistake. I clicked your "wired" page apparently in error.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 02 May 2007 15:46:41
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> I...am confused...
>
>> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
>
> Hm. First Shimano cribs Hollowtech II from Bullseye, and now it turns
> out Campy cribbed Ultra-Torque from Profile!
>
Me too. Information overload. Splined cranks? I have older cotter key
types, and a brand new in box one piece for an old Schwinn, and many
square 3 piece sets, but splined???
And so many varieties and adapters at $100???
I'm sorry I got into it.
No way do I put out $100 for a splined BB and then have to put out more
$$ to buy special cranks.
Shit, I want to ride, not work to buy the most expensive parts I can find.
Bill Baka
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Date: 02 May 2007 17:04:57
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> I...am confused...
I wrote:
>>> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Hm. First Shimano cribs Hollowtech II from Bullseye, and now it turns
>> out Campy cribbed Ultra-Torque from Profile!
Bill wrote:
> Me too. Information overload. Splined cranks? I have older cotter key
> types, and a brand new in box one piece for an old Schwinn, and many
> square 3 piece sets, but splined???
> And so many varieties and adapters at $100???
> I'm sorry I got into it.
> No way do I put out $100 for a splined BB and then have to put out more
> $$ to buy special cranks.
> Shit, I want to ride, not work to buy the most expensive parts I can find.
If your bike frame has that BB shell, a whole new OPC crank with cups
and bearings starts at $20
The Profile USA Evolution BB set is a dedicated piece for pro-quality
splined CrMo MX cranks and definitely solves a known problem for that
one specific application.
As in everything cycling, many paths for different riders.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 02 May 2007 22:40:27
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
A Muzi wrote:
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>> I...am confused...
>
> I wrote:
>>>> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
>
>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>> Hm. First Shimano cribs Hollowtech II from Bullseye, and now it turns
>>> out Campy cribbed Ultra-Torque from Profile!
>
> Bill wrote:
>> Me too. Information overload. Splined cranks? I have older cotter key
>> types, and a brand new in box one piece for an old Schwinn, and many
>> square 3 piece sets, but splined???
>> And so many varieties and adapters at $100???
>> I'm sorry I got into it.
>> No way do I put out $100 for a splined BB and then have to put out
>> more $$ to buy special cranks.
>> Shit, I want to ride, not work to buy the most expensive parts I can
>> find.
>
> If your bike frame has that BB shell, a whole new OPC crank with cups
> and bearings starts at $20
I know. I wore out the bottom of my...Huffy after about 4,000 miles and
the new bracket, with labor was only $20 plus change. Since I broke it
about 10 miles from home I oil them more now.
>
> The Profile USA Evolution BB set is a dedicated piece for pro-quality
> splined CrMo MX cranks and definitely solves a known problem for that
> one specific application.
>
> As in everything cycling, many paths for different riders.
>
So very true.
Bill Baka
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Date: 02 May 2007 17:17:00
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <Bn2_h.2279$RX.300@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net >,
Bill <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > I...am confused...
> >
> >> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
> >
> > Hm. First Shimano cribs Hollowtech II from Bullseye, and now it turns
> > out Campy cribbed Ultra-Torque from Profile!
> >
> Me too. Information overload. Splined cranks? I have older cotter key
> types, and a brand new in box one piece for an old Schwinn, and many
> square 3 piece sets, but splined???
> And so many varieties and adapters at $100???
> I'm sorry I got into it.
> No way do I put out $100 for a splined BB and then have to put out more
> $$ to buy special cranks.
> Shit, I want to ride, not work to buy the most expensive parts I can find.
> Bill Baka
Well, you're not the target market for this extremely tough equipment.
Use this quick self-test to find out if you should be running Profile
splined cranks:
1) Am I Chalo?
2) Do I plan to "get vert"?
3) Will my cycling include a routine risk of "casing"?
If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you should get a set
of fancy splined cranks. If not, cheaper cranks will meet your needs.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
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Date: 03 May 2007 14:46:40
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In rec.bicycles.tech Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote:
>
> Well, you're not the target market for this extremely tough equipment.
> Use this quick self-test to find out if you should be running Profile
> splined cranks:
>
> 1) Am I Chalo?
>
> 2) Do I plan to "get vert"?
>
> 3) Will my cycling include a routine risk of "casing"?
Wait, I know I'm not Chalo, and I know what "get vert" means, but what the hell
is "casing"?
> If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you should get a set of
> fancy splined cranks. If not, cheaper cranks will meet your needs.
I'm tempted, but the expense of getting a custom road frame [1] with an
American BB is a bit much for me. I'm a bit cheap^H^H^H^H^H^H frugal,
much like yourself.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
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Date: 02 May 2007 06:37:11
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
A Muzi wrote:
>>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>>> There are a lot of standards! BMX (also old American bikes) use a BB
>>>> which is larger in diameter and threadless. The bearing cups press
>>>> into place.
>>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/opc.html
>>>> The large diameter was necessary to fit a 1-piece crank through the BB.
>
>> Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> That one sentence explains it all to me now. The hated 1-piece crank.
>
> >> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Well, the BB is not responsible for the sins of the crank. 3-piece
>> cranks are available for this BB size, and are among the toughest
>> components out there:
>> http://www.profileracing.com/products_home.php?productid=1
>
>>> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>>>> Nowadays, it is common for high-end BMXes to have a "Euro" BB, which
>>>> is a standard 68mm BB threaded just like most road and mountain
>>>> bikes (ie ISO threads).
>
>> Bill <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> If I see a one piece crank on a bike for sale I just do a U-turn.
>>> I cringe when I see "China" on something I am going to have to work on.
>>> Bill Baka
>
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Well, the other class of bikes that have 1-piece cranks are some nice
>> old American bikes (think post-war adult bicycles; the equivalent of
>> the Raleigh 3-speeds). But yes, it's virtually always a sign of
>> trouble on a recent MTB.
>>
>> The BB shell, however, has some merit as a standard that could solve
>> the small-bearing-area issue currently being fixed with
>> external-bearing BBs. It's big enough, and it's already there.
>
> Great page! Very entertaining. I'll surely avoid the killer wrap!
>
> There are some really nice BBs for OPC format:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/proflevo.html
We were just BS'ing. I own some of each but wondered if there were more
than 2. Probably, but I don't want to know.
Bill Baka
|
| |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 20:06:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 28, 12:01 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1177773944.579760.319...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
>
> Well, first it should be pointed out they've been selling this
> drivetrain (Shimano Auto-D) in Europe and Asia for some time.
When did they begin selling this scheme in those markets?
> Excess
> industrial capacity? Well, I'm sure Shimano would like to sell more of
> them than they do now.
>
> Shimano has decided that this might be the next trick for getting more
> people out riding (or, if you are cynical, buying) bicycles.
>
> Shimano always throws a lot of ideas at the marketplace. It's pretty
> much their corporate philosophy. Their history is littered with the
> wreckage of ideas that crashed and burned: Positron, Dura-Ace AX,
> Airlines air shifters, Biopace, and others past and present.
>
> The point is that some of these were good ideas, some bad, some both,
> but they have to be seen in the context of ideas like SIS/STI indexing,
> which was an idea that pretty much instantly popped Shimano into its
> present "brand S" market dominance.
My issue with Shimano is their history of leaving buyers 'high and
dry' when they move on to "the next great new thing". I appreciate
their history of innovation, but I dislike their history of not
supporting past product. Shimano's history is littered with examples
of this behavior. It is particularly annoying when Shimano introduces
a "new standard", then abandons it a few years later. IMO, this is in
the process of happening right now with the Octalink BB/crank
interface. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of
cyclists were more or less 'force fed' Octalink and would have been
better served with the old square taper standard.
>
> So they have a pretty good history with this ideas thing, even though
> most of them fail. Shimano's not betting the company on Auto-D/Coasting,
> and that's that.
>
> As for whether this will catch on in North America, well, the way to bet
> is probably no, but that's usually the way to bet. If it does catch on,
> the payback could be big.
>
|
| | |
Date: 29 Apr 2007 07:41:19
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1177815984.132577.33690@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 28, 12:01 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > In article <1177773944.579760.319...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
> >
> > Well, first it should be pointed out they've been selling this
> > drivetrain (Shimano Auto-D) in Europe and Asia for some time.
>
> When did they begin selling this scheme in those markets?
I'm not sure about exact dates, but I think if I dig around I have a
catalog from a few years ago that shows Auto-D as a product.
> > Shimano always throws a lot of ideas at the marketplace. It's pretty
> > much their corporate philosophy. Their history is littered with the
> > wreckage of ideas that crashed and burned: Positron, Dura-Ace AX,
> > Airlines air shifters, Biopace, and others past and present.
> >
> > The point is that some of these were good ideas, some bad, some both,
> > but they have to be seen in the context of ideas like SIS/STI indexing,
> > which was an idea that pretty much instantly popped Shimano into its
> > present "brand S" market dominance.
>
> My issue with Shimano is their history of leaving buyers 'high and
> dry' when they move on to "the next great new thing". I appreciate
> their history of innovation, but I dislike their history of not
> supporting past product. Shimano's history is littered with examples
> of this behavior. It is particularly annoying when Shimano introduces
> a "new standard", then abandons it a few years later. IMO, this is in
> the process of happening right now with the Octalink BB/crank
> interface. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of
> cyclists were more or less 'force fed' Octalink and would have been
> better served with the old square taper standard.
Heavier cyclists than I have pointed out both their problems with square
taper and the trouble with Octalink.
I don't buy into the "Shimano=orphans" mantra all that much. The rafts
of stuff out in the market mean that NOS for even their worst ideas last
much longer than any conceivable need for it. Even today, a determined
buyer can find AX components if they really need them (and who does?).
As for Octalink, well, it's going away someday, but here it is:
http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3
Eprd_id=845524441784053&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050590&ASSORTMENT
%3C%3East_id=1408474395181674&bmUID=1177832064233
Erk.
http://tinyurl.com/2dcwf2
The ES25 BB. Still in the catalog.
As for what will happen to bikes that currently have Octalink BBs, well,
I suspect that when they need replacement BBs, the stuff will be in
shops for a good number of years.
Indeed, I was curious as to what their support was like for the
long-dead SPD-R standard, so I checked.
They still sell the cleats:
http://tinyurl.com/23pm4k
Meanwhile, there are still people happily riding around on Biopace
rings, and for the most part, if they know where to shop, there's plenty
more to be had.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Apr 2007 15:59:17
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
>>> "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
>> Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>>> Well, first it should be pointed out they've been selling this
>>> drivetrain (Shimano Auto-D) in Europe and Asia for some time.
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> When did they begin selling this scheme in those markets?
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> I'm not sure about exact dates, but I think if I dig around I have a
> catalog from a few years ago that shows Auto-D as a product.
-snip Shimano product support comments-
Auto-D was a four speed with an electronic control. User could choose
'quick' or 'slow' autoshift or override the chip/servo to select one of
the four gears all on one wired handlebar controller.
The new "Coasting" system is a fully auto three with no controls
whatsoever on the handlebar. Front dynamo and sensor is wired to
behind-BB controller, shifting three speed coaster hub. I have no
opinion yet, just clarifying the specs.
Regarding the perennial "Shimano does/does not support their products"
discussion, Shimano is so huge and varied that you could just about
Biblically prove any position based on one product or another. For every
AirLines or DA-Track-Ten or SPDR, there's an RM40 hub or seven cassette
which hasn't changed much in 20 years.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 08:25:44
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
|
| | |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 17:01:08
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1177773944.579760.319890@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"datakoll@yahoo.com" <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
> no, the computer chipped bicycle transmissions not the sledgeway
Well, first it should be pointed out they've been selling this
drivetrain (Shimano Auto-D) in Europe and Asia for some time. Excess
industrial capacity? Well, I'm sure Shimano would like to sell more of
them than they do now.
Shimano has decided that this might be the next trick for getting more
people out riding (or, if you are cynical, buying) bicycles.
Shimano always throws a lot of ideas at the marketplace. It's pretty
much their corporate philosophy. Their history is littered with the
wreckage of ideas that crashed and burned: Positron, Dura-Ace AX,
Airlines air shifters, Biopace, and others past and present.
The point is that some of these were good ideas, some bad, some both,
but they have to be seen in the context of ideas like SIS/STI indexing,
which was an idea that pretty much instantly popped Shimano into its
present "brand S" market dominance.
So they have a pretty good history with this ideas thing, even though
most of them fail. Shimano's not betting the company on Auto-D/Coasting,
and that's that.
As for whether this will catch on in North America, well, the way to bet
is probably no, but that's usually the way to bet. If it does catch on,
the payback could be big.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 07:25:10
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
>
> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
saw a skegway on the beach last month
owner aslo rides a beach sail tricycle
skegway before that was ridning in front of the court house jail-
comin in to pay an unliscensed/registered vehicle fine?
is it 'driven' by excess industrial capacity rather than consumer
analysis?
|
| | |
Date: 03 May 2007 15:49:12
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Dane Buson wrote:
>
> Wait, I know I'm notChalo, and I know what "get vert" means, but what the hell
> is "casing"?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bl4J3LInlmU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GdM5Xa1Jio0
etc.
Chalo
|
| | | |
Date: 04 May 2007 01:23:57
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1178232552.070402.17890@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
> >
> > Wait, I know I'm notChalo, and I know what "get vert" means, but what the
> > hell
> > is "casing"?
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bl4J3LInlmU
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=GdM5Xa1Jio0
>
> etc.
>
> Chalo
It's churlish of me to argue, but I'd say the first one looks like he
just sorta blew the landing, and both are on motorcycles.
I present the canonical BMX casing video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KP6crNy34tQ
Far be it from me to be the BMXionary, but I think that "casing"
specifically refers to coming up short on a jump in such a way that the
main point of impact is neither wheel, but the BB area. Short of landing
on your head, this is pretty much the worst possible landing, as you get
no benefit from the sloped landing, and your bike comes to a complete
stop almost instantly (rider stops shortly afterwards, then usually
rolls around in pain).
The term presumably comes from motocross, though, because in the same
type of landing an MXer drops his bike, to a first approximation, on the
engine case (in fact it's usually the bash guard and the lower frame
rails that actually take the impact, though I suppose in a really good
crash, the bottom of the engine would get involved).
Any way you look at it, it's not recommended.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | |
Date: 03 May 2007 15:06:10
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Dane Buson wrote:
>
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >
> > If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you should get a set of
> > fancy splined cranks. If not, cheaper cranks will meet your needs.
>
> I'm tempted, but the expense of getting a custom road frame [1] with an
> American BB is a bit much for me. I'm a bit cheap^H^H^H^H^H^H frugal,
> much like yourself.
Everybody who's anybody in the BMX business these days offers a "Euro"
bottom bracket option-- for frames and cranks alike. I think it's a
terrible, terrible idea, but there it is. I can't say I'm sorry about
it either, because conversion BBs are what allow me to sport badass
cranks on my Cannondales, '70s Nishiki, and Redline 29er. I still use
American BB shells wherever I can, because the bearings are bigger and
better.
In my post above, I linked to a "Euro" BB for BMX cranks with 22mm
spindles:
http://www.danscomp.com/456008.php
There are similar BBs available for 19mm, 20mm, and 3/4" spindles. So
far, there's no Euro BB support for 7/8" (22.2mm) spindles-- which
would solve a lot of people's problems with Bullseye cranks for all
time.
Chalo
|
| | |
Date: 02 May 2007 12:09:04
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
>
> Well, you're not the target market for this extremely tough equipment.
> Use this quick self-test to find out if you should be running Profile
> splined cranks:
>
> 1) Am IChalo?
>
> 2) Do I plan to "get vert"?
>
> 3) Will my cycling include a routine risk of "casing"?
>
> If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you should get a set
> of fancy splined cranks. If not, cheaper cranks will meet your needs.
I think there's one more good role for tubular CrMo cranks, which is
for anybody who wants to reduce the amount of twist and flex he or she
feels at the pedals. I have a buddy who weighs 130# on a good day,
and he swears by Bullseye cranks because of the way they feel. (He
swears *at* Bullseye cranks when he has to deal with their peculiar
bottom brackets.)
I have old-fashioned lugged steel frames with 1" top tubes and 1-1/8"
downtubes-- in ludicrously large frame sizes of course-- that you'd
think would be floppy as a wet noodle. But they have BMX cranks on
them, and I really don't feel that much difference between their
behavior under pedaling loads and that of my big-tube C'dales. The
cranks make more noticeable difference than all the other sources of
flex put together.
As for their cost, most BMX cranks are better value for what they are
than any MTB or road crank. You can't get a very nice aluminum/square-
taper crank plus a BB for $80, but here is a tubular one at that price
that is smartly made and finished:
http://www.danscomp.com/451061.php
And if you compare the Shimano version of a modern top-shelf BMX
crank,
http://www.danscomp.com/451190.php
you'll find that it costs twice as much as something lighter, stiffer,
stronger, neater, and simpler from a BMX-specific manufacturer:
http://www.danscomp.com/451110.php
http://www.danscomp.com/456008.php
I agree that if you don't want a stiff crank and don't need a strong
crank, you can probably come up with something acceptable and cheaper
by getting an MTB or road bike crank. I don't think welded steel
cranks are for everybody-- but I do think they would suit some folks
who have had no occasion to try them.
Chalo
|
| | |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 15:12:06
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1177770310.442459.31350@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >,
"datakoll@yahoo.com" <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
> >
> > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> saw a skegway on the beach last month
> owner aslo rides a beach sail tricycle
>
> skegway before that was ridning in front of the court house jail-
> comin in to pay an unliscensed/registered vehicle fine?
>
> is it 'driven' by excess industrial capacity rather than consumer
> analysis?
Probably driven (heh) by two keys: Dean Kamen already had the technology
thanks to his innovative electric wheelchair projects, and had a theory
that a human-sized vehicle that sped people up to a running pace
effortlessly might be attractive.
There were a few problems with the theory. Also, the price.
Still cool technology, though.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 20:57:15
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 27, 3:50 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1177692344.830202.229...@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 27, 5:51 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > >On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > > >> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > >> > In article
> > > >> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > >> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>
>
> > > >> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> > > >> > What is this?
>
> > > >> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > > >> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > > >> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > > >> > Proceed to this site.
>
> > > >> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > > >> > Click here to enable previews.
> > > >> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> > > >> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > > >> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > > >> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > > >> proceed.
>
> > > >> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
> > > >I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> > > >expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> > > >it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> > > >(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> > > >include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> > > >easier for people.
>
> > > The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
> > > of business.
>
> > If TinyURL goes out of business, then the direct link will fail too.
> > Unless you mean the original URL before it was TinyURLed, which will
> > be broken if it wraps in the newsreader, which was the whole point of
> > TinyURLing it in the first place.
>
> Much of the problems with URL's in text arise from writers and
> news readers. To give everyone the best chance, the recommendation
> is 'URL:' as a prefix and enclosing with angle brackets.
>
> <URL:http://asdf.org/~anna/slash/dot.>
>
> Here is a recent discussion of these matters.
> <URL:http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/7
> 19f16bf40dc459f/14389aef9dfe773b?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#14389aef9dfe773b>
>
> --
> Michael Press
Yeah, Google Groups broke the URL, angle brackets and all.
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 20:09:35
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 27, 5:39 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1177678052.501147.203...@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > > On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > > > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> > > > What is this?
>
> > > > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > > > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > > > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > > > Proceed to this site.
>
> > > > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > > > Click here to enable previews.
> > > > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> > > When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > > you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > > the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > > proceed.
>
> > > FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
> > I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> > expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> > it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> > (as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> > include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> > easier for people.
>
> Thanks. The difficulty arises because "The preview feature
> requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser" and I do not
> accept cookies.
>
FWIW, any 'preview' TinyURL can be changed to a plain 'ol TinyURL by
eliminating 'preview'.
IOW, http://.preview.tinyurl.com/123fordemo can be changed to
http://tinyurl.com/123fordemo, thus eliminating the issue.
But I'll try to remember to include both in the future.
|
| | |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 19:37:58
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article
<1177729774.950692.155250@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:39 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1177678052.501147.203...@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > > > > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
> >
> > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
> >
> > > > > What is this?
> >
> > > > > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > > > > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > > > > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > > > > Proceed to this site.
> >
> > > > > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > > > > Click here to enable previews.
> > > > > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
> >
> > > > When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > > > you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > > > the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > > > proceed.
> >
> > > > FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
> >
> > > I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> > > expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> > > it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> > > (as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> > > include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> > > easier for people.
> >
> > Thanks. The difficulty arises because "The preview feature
> > requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser" and I do not
> > accept cookies.
> >
>
> FWIW, any 'preview' TinyURL can be changed to a plain 'ol TinyURL by
> eliminating 'preview'.
>
> IOW, http://.preview.tinyurl.com/123fordemo can be changed to
> http://tinyurl.com/123fordemo, thus eliminating the issue.
I will try to remember that. Thanks.
> But I'll try to remember to include both in the future.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 16:45:54
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1177678052.501147.203720@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > writes:
> I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> (as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> easier for people.
I like to include the full, long URL along with
the tinyURL link -- even if it gets line-broken.
I figure the full URL usually self-describes what
the tinyURL link leads to.
A little quote that gives people an idea of the
site's content also helps.
Thank Goodness for drag-&-click copy-&-paste.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 10:59:57
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 27, 11:45 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:51 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > >> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > >> > In article
> > >> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > >> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > >> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > >> > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > >> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > >> > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > >> > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > >> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > >> > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > >> > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > >> > > > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> > >> > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > >> > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> > >> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> > >> > What is this?
>
> > >> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > >> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > >> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > >> > Proceed to this site.
>
> > >> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > >> > Click here to enable previews.
> > >> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> > >> > --
> > >> > Michael Press
>
> > >> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > >> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > >> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > >> proceed.
>
> > >> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
> > >I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> > >expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> > >it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> > >(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> > >include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> > >easier for people.
>
> > The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
> > of business.
> > --
> > JT
> > ****************************
> > Remove "remove" to reply
> > Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> > ****************************
>
> If TinyURL goes out of business, then the direct link will fail too.
> Unless you mean the original URL before it was TinyURLed, which will
> be broken if it wraps in the newsreader, which was the whole point of
> TinyURLing it in the first place.
Exactly!
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 09:45:44
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 27, 5:51 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> >> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >> > In article
> >> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> >> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> > > > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> >> > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> >> > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> >> > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> >> > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> >> > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> >> > > > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> >> > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> >> > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> >> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> >> > What is this?
>
> >> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> >> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> >> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> >> > Proceed to this site.
>
> >> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> >> > Click here to enable previews.
> >> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> >> > --
> >> > Michael Press
>
> >> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> >> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> >> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> >> proceed.
>
> >> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
> >I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> >expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> >it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> >(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> >include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> >easier for people.
>
> The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
> of business.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
If TinyURL goes out of business, then the direct link will fail too.
Unless you mean the original URL before it was TinyURLed, which will
be broken if it wraps in the newsreader, which was the whole point of
TinyURLing it in the first place.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 22:50:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article
<1177692344.830202.229930@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com >,
Hank Wirtz <hank@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:51 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
> > On 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > >> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > >> > In article
> > >> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > >> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
[...]
> > >> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
> >
> > >> > What is this?
> >
> > >> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > >> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > >> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > >> > Proceed to this site.
> >
> > >> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > >> > Click here to enable previews.
> > >> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
> >
> > >> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > >> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > >> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > >> proceed.
> >
> > >> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
> >
> > >I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> > >expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> > >it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> > >(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> > >include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> > >easier for people.
> >
> > The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
> > of business.
>
> If TinyURL goes out of business, then the direct link will fail too.
> Unless you mean the original URL before it was TinyURLed, which will
> be broken if it wraps in the newsreader, which was the whole point of
> TinyURLing it in the first place.
Much of the problems with URL's in text arise from writers and
news readers. To give everyone the best chance, the recommendation
is 'URL:' as a prefix and enclosing with angle brackets.
<URL:http://asdf.org/~anna/slash/dot. >
Here is a recent discussion of these matters.
<URL:http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/7
19f16bf40dc459f/14389aef9dfe773b?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#14389aef9dfe773b >
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 18:47:04
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On 27 Apr 2007 09:45:44 -0700, Hank Wirtz <hank@wirtznet.net > wrote:
JFT wrote:
>> The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
>> of business.
>
>If TinyURL goes out of business, then the direct link will fail too.
>Unless you mean the original URL before it was
That's what I mean.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> > What is this?
>
> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > Proceed to this site.
>
> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > Click here to enable previews.
> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> proceed.
>
> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
easier for people.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 22:39:00
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article
<1177678052.501147.203720@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
[...]
> > > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
> >
> > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
> >
> > > What is this?
> >
> > > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> > > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> > > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> > > Proceed to this site.
> >
> > > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> > > Click here to enable previews.
> > > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
> >
> > When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
> > you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
> > the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
> > proceed.
> >
> > FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>
> I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
> expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
> it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
> (as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
> include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
> easier for people.
Thanks. The difficulty arises because "The preview feature
requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser" and I do not
accept cookies.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:51:13
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On 27 Apr 2007 05:47:32 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Apr 27, 6:46 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>> On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > In article
>> > <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> > > > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
>> > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>>
>> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>>
>> > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>>
>> > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>>
>> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>>
>> > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
>> > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>>
>> > > > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>>
>> > > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
>> > > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>>
>> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>>
>> > What is this?
>>
>> > Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
>> > This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
>> > nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
>> > Proceed to this site.
>>
>> > You currently have the preview feature disabled.
>> > Click here to enable previews.
>> > The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>>
>> > --
>> > Michael Press
>>
>> When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
>> you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
>> the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
>> proceed.
>>
>> FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
>>
>
>I use the 'preview' option because at least one RBT poster has
>expressed reservations about opening a "blind" TinyURL link, fearing
>it might lead to something morally repugnant or otherwise unpleasant
>(as, apparently, it did when posted by some other poster). I could
>include both the 'direct' and the preview' link if that makes things
>easier for people.
The direct link is a good idea for the future in case tinyurl goes out
of business.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 04:46:35
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 11:14 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1177605519.569898.322...@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> What is this?
>
> Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
> This TinyURL redirects to:http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
> nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
> Proceed to this site.
>
> You currently have the preview feature disabled.
> Click here to enable previews.
> The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
>
> --
> Michael Press
When you create a TinyURL, it presents you with two URLs. One takes
you directly to the page, the other takes you the TinyURL site with
the link to the original URL, so you can decide if you want to
proceed.
FWIW, I've never seen anyone but Ozark use the latter type.
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 19:41:32
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 10:28 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:08:42 GMT, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net>
> may have said:
>
> > I have yet to find an automatic trans that's as reliable
> >> as a manual, either.
> >>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<
>
> >What about a dual transmission?
> >Good way to learn stick shift too.
>
> All of the implementations of a "dual trans" of my experience are
> automatics with a "clutch" control grafted on, and a valve body that
> has manual override of the normal shifting when in "manual" mode.
> Some didn't even bother with the fiction of a clutch; they just
> provided manual shift capability in an automatic box. Neither is a
> "good way" to learn how to use a real stick. Happily, such things
> have been exceptionally rare, usually only found on what amounted to
> demonstration vehicles. And then there's the semi-automatic, which
> does not appear in anything currently in production TTBOMK; a manual
> gearbox with a vacuum-actuated, electrically-controlled clutch, and a
> high-stall torque converter. VW and Porsche both had versions. None
> of these were good ideas IMO.
>
> --
I remember the VW/Porsche thing. "Sport Stick" or something like that?
The servo that disengaged the clutch was in a switch built into the
shift lever - if you put a hand on the shifter at speed, the engine
would rev for the heavens. Very, very stupid.
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 19:38:01
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 10:15 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2007 09:11:48 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> may have said:
>
> >On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> >> The odd thing is that by comparison to a vehicle with a conventional
> >> automatic transmission, a hybrid often isn't all that complicated.
>
> >Do you really think that is the case?
>
> For the hybrids that are driven by a wide-rpm-range electric motor
> without a transmission at all, most assuredly. The motor control
> circuitry is much simpler than the control system of an automatic
> trans, and the number of moving parts is far lower. I should note
> that there was no vast leap of technical development needed to make
> such hybrid autos; the motor and control circuitry technology required
> has been employed in forklifts and other industrial applications for
> decades, and is not anywhere near as complicated, either in simple
> complexity or in difficulty of diagnosis and repair, as an automatic
> transmission. By comparison to some manual transmissions, such a
> hybrid might be slightly more complex.
>
> The hybrids like the Honda, where the electric motor provides assist
> that is plugged into the conventional drivetrain, are the worst of
> both worlds; they have all the complexities of each, added together.
I think this arrangement is what comes to mind when I think of a
hybrid automobile. Doesn't Toyota use a similar scheme?
> Although this *can* be slightly more fuel-efficient, that is not
> always the case. (Honda, I should note, is fond of complicated and
> arcane feats of engineering; they also make that abominable CVT which
> is essentially unrepairable.)
>
IIRC, DAF (the Dutch company later acquired by Volvo) made CVT cars
for years in the 70s-80s. Were they troublesome? BTW, did DAF just
'disappear'?
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 20:18:10
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On 26 Apr 2007 19:38:01 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > may have said:
>On Apr 26, 10:15 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>> The hybrids like the Honda, where the electric motor provides assist
>> that is plugged into the conventional drivetrain, are the worst of
>> both worlds; they have all the complexities of each, added together.
>
>
>I think this arrangement is what comes to mind when I think of a
>hybrid automobile. Doesn't Toyota use a similar scheme?
The Prius uses the IC motor to directly power the (motor/)generator
alone, if you don't consider a complex magnetic/mechanical coupling to
be a direct drive to the rest of the powertrain. At the same time,
the main electric motor, instead of direct-drive to the wheels, is
coupled to a planetary gear set that drives, or is driven by, the
motor/generator that's coupled to the engine (through a clutch).
Although they call this lash-up a CVT, it's not really. It uses
electronically balanced differential motor/generator loads to wierdly
control the power transfer from the main electric motor and the IC
engine to the wheels. To someone unfamiliar with the concepts
involved, it's the equivalent of magic. The power transfer display on
the dash shows what's going on at any given time, and some drivers
find it confusing to the point of utterly mysterious. Although the
system is actually very simple in design and operation, it is so
foreign to the thinking and experience of most automotive techs and
tech buffs that many find it completely baffling. It has less than
one fifth the number of moving parts of a typical simple automatic
transmission.
>> Although this *can* be slightly more fuel-efficient, that is not
>> always the case. (Honda, I should note, is fond of complicated and
>> arcane feats of engineering; they also make that abominable CVT which
>> is essentially unrepairable.)
>>
>
>IIRC, DAF (the Dutch company later acquired by Volvo) made CVT cars
>for years in the 70s-80s. Were they troublesome? BTW, did DAF just
>'disappear'?
I never got close enough to anything made by DAF to be in danger of
having it rub off. Their CVT was more closely related to the megabelt
torque converter system of a snowmobile; I believe that they
originated the concept in fact, and that the similar ones used since
are derivatives. The flexible belt makes a good setup, actually; I'm
not impressed by the claims for the metal-belt variants made by Audi
and others.
Volvo bought DAF's carmaking division; a small transmission specialty
company remains independent. The DAF transmission design was used in
the Volvo 340 according to information in Wikipedia.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 15:33:22
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 3:51 pm, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1177619734.943716.18140@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 1:06 pm, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net> wrote:
> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1177605519.569898.322220@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> >> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic
> >> >> > shifting.
> >> >> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> >> >> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> >> >> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> >> >> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> >> >> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> >> >> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> >> > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> >> > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> >> Now yu don it. Went and pissed off Mr. Red Green
>
> > ???
>
> His definition of simple elegance included never using duct tape unless it
> is used to repair ducts.
> Red Green show is always showing guys how to make things with duck tape.
>http://www.redgreen.com/
Ah. Never heard of him......is it a TV show?
BTW, I recall a report a few years ago that found the duck/duct tape
was effective for several things, but sealing ducts was not among
them. ;-)
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 13:35:35
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 1:06 pm, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1177605519.569898.322220@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> >> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> >> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> >> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> >> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> >> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> >> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>
> Now yu don it. Went and pissed off Mr. Red Green
>
???
|
| | |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 20:51:22
From: nash
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1177619734.943716.18140@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 26, 1:06 pm, "nash" <zwepytzkehil...@jetable.net> wrote:
>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1177605519.569898.322220@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> >> On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> >> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic
>> >> > shifting.
>> >> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>>
>> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>>
>> >> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>>
>> >> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>>
>> >> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>>
>> >> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
>> >> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>>
>> >> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>>
>> > Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
>> > Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>>
>> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
>>
>> Now yu don it. Went and pissed off Mr. Red Green
>>
>
> ???
His definition of simple elegance included never using duct tape unless it
is used to repair ducts.
Red Green show is always showing guys how to make things with duck tape.
http://www.redgreen.com/
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:38:39
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
|
| | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 06:14:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article
<1177605519.569898.322220@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
> >
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
> >
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
> >
> > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
> >
> > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
> >
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
> >
> > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
> >
> > AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
What is this?
Preview of TinyURL.com/yq6qvz
This TinyURL redirects to:
http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefi
nition/0,,sid26_gci532314,00.html
Proceed to this site.
You currently have the preview feature disabled.
Click here to enable previews.
The preview feature requires cookies to be enabled in your web browser.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 18:06:24
From: nash
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1177605519.569898.322220@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 26, 7:52 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
>> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>>
>> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>>
>> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>>
>> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>>
>> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>>
>> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
>> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>>
>> AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
>
> Our culture, it seems, has no appreciation of an "elegant solution".
> Many will know what I am referring to; for those who don't:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq6qvz
Now yu don it. Went and pissed off Mr. Red Green
>
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:27:49
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 25, 11:38 pm, Bob <hunr...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> Whether or not it is a complicated answer depends on the question. If
> the designers were asking "how should we design the gearshift
> mechanism?" then yes, it would be *much* more complicated than
> necessary but that's not the question. The real question being
> answered by the bike manufacturers is "how do we make multi-gear bikes
> less intimidating to non-cyclists?" It is actually a very simple
> solution.
>
Simple in one sense, yes. But, perhaps more complex than necessary?
Would more development of, say, a centrifugal-based system yield more
reliable results? Or (my choice) just a "It's new!!!!!!" presentation
on a lever-shifted three speed internal gear hub?
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:11:48
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote:
> On 23 Apr 2007 09:01:12 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> may have said:
>
> >The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> >Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> >(there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> >Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> What Shimano is attempting to do is lure in a gullible and relatively
> uninformed market segment via the use of what amounts to a lie.
>
> This is called "marketing".
Don't use the word "lie" and the word "marketing" in the same post!!!
You'll be descended upon by registered members of The Gullibles from
No.California, France, NYC and who-knows-where-else.
>
> Both of the bikes cited seem to be proving that marketing is still
> able to present simplicity of interface as being synonymous with
> simplicity of the mechanism, which it manifestly is not. People never
> stop to think that everything which is made "automatic" does so at the
> cost of efficiency and simplicity. My ex used to chafe over the fact
> that her Escort Wagon's gas mileage was 6mpg worse than mine over the
> same route and speed...because hers had an automatic trans while mine
> was manual. I have yet to find an automatic trans that's as reliable
> as a manual, either.
>
> >This seems a complicated answer to a simple question.
>
> Many "conveniences" follow that pattern.
>
> >But, Americans
> >love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> The odd thing is that by comparison to a vehicle with a conventional
> automatic transmission, a hybrid often isn't all that complicated.
>
Do you really think that is the case?
|
| | |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 21:15:56
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On 26 Apr 2007 09:11:48 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > may have said:
>On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>> The odd thing is that by comparison to a vehicle with a conventional
>> automatic transmission, a hybrid often isn't all that complicated.
>>
>
>Do you really think that is the case?
For the hybrids that are driven by a wide-rpm-range electric motor
without a transmission at all, most assuredly. The motor control
circuitry is much simpler than the control system of an automatic
trans, and the number of moving parts is far lower. I should note
that there was no vast leap of technical development needed to make
such hybrid autos; the motor and control circuitry technology required
has been employed in forklifts and other industrial applications for
decades, and is not anywhere near as complicated, either in simple
complexity or in difficulty of diagnosis and repair, as an automatic
transmission. By comparison to some manual transmissions, such a
hybrid might be slightly more complex.
The hybrids like the Honda, where the electric motor provides assist
that is plugged into the conventional drivetrain, are the worst of
both worlds; they have all the complexities of each, added together.
Although this *can* be slightly more fuel-efficient, that is not
always the case. (Honda, I should note, is fond of complicated and
arcane feats of engineering; they also make that abominable CVT which
is essentially unrepairable.)
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 23:35:21
From: Bill
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Werehatrack wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2007 09:11:48 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> may have said:
>
>> On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>>> The odd thing is that by comparison to a vehicle with a conventional
>>> automatic transmission, a hybrid often isn't all that complicated.
>>>
>> Do you really think that is the case?
>
> For the hybrids that are driven by a wide-rpm-range electric motor
> without a transmission at all, most assuredly. The motor control
> circuitry is much simpler than the control system of an automatic
> trans, and the number of moving parts is far lower. I should note
> that there was no vast leap of technical development needed to make
> such hybrid autos; the motor and control circuitry technology required
> has been employed in forklifts and other industrial applications for
> decades, and is not anywhere near as complicated, either in simple
> complexity or in difficulty of diagnosis and repair, as an automatic
> transmission. By comparison to some manual transmissions, such a
> hybrid might be slightly more complex.
I do know that the motors are brush less, which implies DC magnets on
the rotor, and the electronics can feed it pretty much any voltage and
frequency for control. For regenerative slowing down the DC magnets
rotating induce a voltage in the drive windings and that can be fed back
into the battery bank by more electronics. It's only under about 10 MPH
when you have to use mechanical 'binders' for a full stop.
>
> The hybrids like the Honda, where the electric motor provides assist
> that is plugged into the conventional drivetrain, are the worst of
> both worlds; they have all the complexities of each, added together.
> Although this *can* be slightly more fuel-efficient, that is not
> always the case. (Honda, I should note, is fond of complicated and
> arcane feats of engineering; they also make that abominable CVT which
> is essentially unrepairable.)
>
>
>
100% agreed on there. Too much fancy junk means there is going to be one
hell of a breakdown record. I work in electronics and the unbreakable
rule is that the more things there are to break, the more they WILL
break, and at the worst possible time.
I would like to see some more work done on electric assist bikes though
since even some of the suits might like to show that they don't
absolutely HAVE to drive that fancy guzzler they own.
For a 10-15 mile each way commute a pedal/electric combo would work well
since you could use the electric assist going to work if running late,
and recharge it by pedaling a bit harder on the way home in the 'charge'
mode. Plug in would be optional, but either way, one less car on the
road is a good thing.
With enough electric bikes those 45 MPH expressways could be filled with
25 MPH bikes instead of a clog of cars at 2-3 MPH burning gas.
It's a start.
Bill Baka
|
| | |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 18:08:42
From: nash
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
I have yet to find an automatic trans that's as reliable
> as a manual, either.
>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<
What about a dual transmission?
Good way to learn stick shift too.
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 21:28:46
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:08:42 GMT, "nash" <zwepytzkehillc9@jetable.net >
may have said:
> I have yet to find an automatic trans that's as reliable
>> as a manual, either.
>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<
>
>What about a dual transmission?
>Good way to learn stick shift too.
All of the implementations of a "dual trans" of my experience are
automatics with a "clutch" control grafted on, and a valve body that
has manual override of the normal shifting when in "manual" mode.
Some didn't even bother with the fiction of a clutch; they just
provided manual shift capability in an automatic box. Neither is a
"good way" to learn how to use a real stick. Happily, such things
have been exceptionally rare, usually only found on what amounted to
demonstration vehicles. And then there's the semi-automatic, which
does not appear in anything currently in production TTBOMK; a manual
gearbox with a vacuum-actuated, electrically-controlled clutch, and a
high-stall torque converter. VW and Porsche both had versions. None
of these were good ideas IMO.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
| |
Date: 26 Apr 2007 05:52:44
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
AND SHiT, also, Segway Human Transporters.
|
| |
Date: 25 Apr 2007 21:38:38
From: Bob
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
Whether or not it is a complicated answer depends on the question. If
the designers were asking "how should we design the gearshift
mechanism?" then yes, it would be *much* more complicated than
necessary but that's not the question. The real question being
answered by the bike manufacturers is "how do we make multi-gear bikes
less intimidating to non-cyclists?" It is actually a very simple
solution.
Regards,
Bob Hunt
|
| |
Date: 25 Apr 2007 01:15:55
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On 23 Apr 2007 09:01:12 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > may have said:
>The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
>Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
>(there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
>Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
What Shimano is attempting to do is lure in a gullible and relatively
uninformed market segment via the use of what amounts to a lie.
This is called "marketing".
Both of the bikes cited seem to be proving that marketing is still
able to present simplicity of interface as being synonymous with
simplicity of the mechanism, which it manifestly is not. People never
stop to think that everything which is made "automatic" does so at the
cost of efficiency and simplicity. My ex used to chafe over the fact
that her Escort Wagon's gas mileage was 6mpg worse than mine over the
same route and speed...because hers had an automatic trans while mine
was manual. I have yet to find an automatic trans that's as reliable
as a manual, either.
>This seems a complicated answer to a simple question.
Many "conveniences" follow that pattern.
>But, Americans
>love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
The odd thing is that by comparison to a vehicle with a conventional
automatic transmission, a hybrid often isn't all that complicated.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
|
| |
Date: 24 Apr 2007 21:17:35
From: Dave Reckoning
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1177344072.919465.180020@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
I don't know the joke here but the punch line is "Shift for Brains"
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:31:42
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 5:16 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 4:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 3:11 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 23, 11:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 23, 11:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > > > > > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > > > > > > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > > > > > > riding.
>
> > > > > > > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > > > > > > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> > > > > > IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> > > > > > that shifts the rear.
>
> > > > > > Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> > > > > > this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> > > > > > system goes awry?
>
> > > > > I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
>
> > > > > [movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
> > > > > movie guy]-
>
> > > > "In a world where Bill & Joan used to have to shift for
> > > > themselves......". ;-)
>
> > > But now have arthritic hands and benefit from technology! :P
>
> > > I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier. We'll see if Santa
> > > gets me one. Santa better put a thumb shifter and a front brake on it,
> > > or I'm sugaring his sleigh's tank...
>
> > >http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html-Hidequoted text -
>
> > Hey, I like that! There's even a local dealer (with two locations!).
>
> > BUT.......can I get it in Carbon with paired spoke wheels? ;-)
>
> Monocoque chain case as well, but it'll cost you.
The more it costs, the better it is, right? And, the more I spend, the
more likely I am to use the bike, right? Right? ;-)
> I'm getting the
> version with titanium rod brakes and deep section Dunlop rims
I'll see your titanium geegaws and raise ya a carbon crank with an
external bearing BB!
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:16:29
From: landotter
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 4:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 3:11 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 23, 11:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 23, 11:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > > > > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > > > > > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > > > > > riding.
>
> > > > > > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > > > > > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> > > > > IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> > > > > that shifts the rear.
>
> > > > > Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> > > > > this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> > > > > system goes awry?
>
> > > > I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
>
> > > > [movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
> > > > movie guy]-
>
> > > "In a world where Bill & Joan used to have to shift for
> > > themselves......". ;-)
>
> > But now have arthritic hands and benefit from technology! :P
>
> > I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier. We'll see if Santa
> > gets me one. Santa better put a thumb shifter and a front brake on it,
> > or I'm sugaring his sleigh's tank...
>
> >http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html-Hide quoted text -
>
> Hey, I like that! There's even a local dealer (with two locations!).
>
> BUT.......can I get it in Carbon with paired spoke wheels? ;-)
Monocoque chain case as well, but it'll cost you. I'm getting the
version with titanium rod brakes and deep section Dunlop rims.
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:14:56
From: landotter
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 4:46 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <1177359060.234692.102...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier.
>
> It's definitely pretty. But that 3-speed hub and
> lonesome coaster brake is sorta ... disappointing.
>
What? It's set up exactly like virtually all bikes in Amsterdam. I
grew up riding such bikes as well during summers in Sweden. We didn't
need no stinkin hand brake. :-P AFAIK, the coaster brake on the Nexus
is supposed to be rather good compared to the binary versons in our
old Torpedo hubs. Only thing that's a bit off-putting is the relaxed
seat tube angle. I do understand the reasoning behind it, and it makes
a bit of sense.
If you want another brake, it just takes a couple minutes to add one.
If it's drilled for fenders, I'm sure you can retrofit it with a long
reach Tektro DP--though I'd likely have to pull a centerpull Dia-Compe
out of the parts bucket and give it a polish...
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:46:51
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
In article <1177359060.234692.102010@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > writes:
> I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier.
It's definitely pretty. But that 3-speed hub and
lonesome coaster brake is sorta ... disappointing.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:14:27
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 3:11 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 11:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > > > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > > > > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > > > > riding.
>
> > > > > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > > > > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> > > > IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> > > > that shifts the rear.
>
> > > > Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> > > > this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> > > > system goes awry?
>
> > > I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
>
> > > [movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
> > > movie guy]-
>
> > "In a world where Bill & Joan used to have to shift for
> > themselves......". ;-)
>
> But now have arthritic hands and benefit from technology! :P
>
> I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier. We'll see if Santa
> gets me one. Santa better put a thumb shifter and a front brake on it,
> or I'm sugaring his sleigh's tank...
>
> http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html- Hide quoted text -
>
Hey, I like that! There's even a local dealer (with two locations!).
BUT.......can I get it in Carbon with paired spoke wheels? ;-)
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:09:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 1:48 pm, Will <waller.will...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question...
>
> Bah! It's just another log in the fire. Carbon's getting old...
>
> But wait 'til Serotta figures this out. Will it be re-launched as
> Integrated-Bio-Technology? Hang on to your wallet...
There probably is a more fertile market in the $1500++ market than the
~$500 market.
Howz 'bout a 650B version from the Riv? ;-)
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:07:09
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 1:21 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
> > ......
>
> More like, "the future of cycling /closeouts/"....
Just think of all the useless bikes when (not if) Shimano "moves on"
to the next great thing.
>
> It looks like a techno-gadget they can stick on the same ol' shit they
> sold last year. Solves no problems, but brings a long a couple new ones.
>
> I'd say what's more important is to get rid of the riding pain, and
> Shimano isn't in the frame business (at least not directly).
> The bargain-bike companies are creeping along with comfort bikes, but
> they've still got a long way to go.
>
> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question.
>
> -Indeed it is, and a question I've never heard anyone *ask*.....
But I'll wager Shimano did a good deal of market research on this.
They must have some evidence this will appeal, at least for enough
units to turn a $profit$.
Is this the kind of needless gimcrackery it will take to sell bikes to
the masses in the US? :-(
>
> > But, Americans
> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> Not all of us Americans like hybrids, and not just because there's no
> Hummer version.
I'm with ya there!
>
> Hybrid cars (and their accompanying tax breaks) were perpetrated on the
> US market by a small number of self-interested industries, a larger
> number of clueless eco-tards and the usual bunch of obfuscating
> government bureaucrats.
Well said on the subject hybrids! What a boondoggle!
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 13:32:36
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 1:21 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> Hybrid cars (and their accompanying tax breaks) were perpetrated on the
> US market by a small number of self-interested industries, a larger
> number of clueless eco-tards and the usual bunch of obfuscating
> government bureaucrats.
You obviously already know how to solve the coming crisis. Care to
let all us clueless eco-tards in on your brilliant solution?
Thanks in advance for saving the world!
D'ohBoy
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 13:11:00
From: landotter
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > > > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > > > riding.
>
> > > > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > > > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> > > IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> > > that shifts the rear.
>
> > > Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> > > this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> > > system goes awry?
>
> > I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
>
> > [movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
> > movie guy]-
>
> "In a world where Bill & Joan used to have to shift for
> themselves......". ;-)
But now have arthritic hands and benefit from technology! :P
I still think the Electra Amsterdam is groovier. We'll see if Santa
gets me one. Santa better put a thumb shifter and a front brake on it,
or I'm sugaring his sleigh's tank...
http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 11:48:15
From: Will
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question...
Bah! It's just another log in the fire. Carbon's getting old...
But wait 'til Serotta figures this out. Will it be re-launched as
Integrated-Bio-Technology? Hang on to your wallet...
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 13:21:23
From: DougC
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
> ......
More like, "the future of cycling /closeouts/"....
It looks like a techno-gadget they can stick on the same ol' shit they
sold last year. Solves no problems, but brings a long a couple new ones.
I'd say what's more important is to get rid of the riding pain, and
Shimano isn't in the frame business (at least not directly).
The bargain-bike companies are creeping along with comfort bikes, but
they've still got a long way to go.
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question.
-Indeed it is, and a question I've never heard anyone *ask*.....
> But, Americans
> love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
Not all of us Americans like hybrids, and not just because there's no
Hummer version.
Hybrid cars (and their accompanying tax breaks) were perpetrated on the
US market by a small number of self-interested industries, a larger
number of clueless eco-tards and the usual bunch of obfuscating
government bureaucrats.
~
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 09:46:43
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > > riding.
>
> > > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> > IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> > that shifts the rear.
>
> > Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> > this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> > system goes awry?
>
> I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
>
> [movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
> movie guy]-
"In a world where Bill & Joan used to have to shift for
themselves......". ;-)
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 09:38:18
From: landotter
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> > Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> > complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> > riding.
>
> > The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> > dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
>
> IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
> that shifts the rear.
>
> Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
> this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
> system goes awry?
I'll wait till Michael Crichton chimes in with an answer to that.
[movie guy]In a world of man and velocipede, comes a new force...[/
movie guy]
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 09:30:21
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> > Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> > (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> > Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> > This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> > love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
>
> Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
> complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
> riding.
>
> The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
> dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
IMO, the complex part was the electronic "signal" from the front hub
that shifts the rear.
Yeah, I agree: anything that gets people to ride.....but I wonder if
this isn't the wron answer. What happens if/when that electronic
system goes awry?
|
| |
Date: 23 Apr 2007 09:24:18
From: landotter
Subject: Re: ??The future of cycling???
|
On Apr 23, 11:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> The new Shimano "Coasting" group, with electronic automatic shifting.
> Giant, Raleigh and Trek are already "on board".
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yprhfn
>
> (there's a link to the Trek Lime at the bottom of the AP article.)
>
> Here's a link to the Raleigh version:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zra4n
>
> This seems a complicated answer to a simple question. But, Americans
> love those overly complex hybrid cars, too.
Hey, if it's reliable enough, then I'm all for it. Doesn't sound that
complex to me, I mean it's still a bicycle. :-P Whatever gets folks
riding.
The front hub certainly seems overly styled for what it is--just a
dang dynohub, but other than that, it's a classy looking machine.
|
|
