| |
Main
Date: 11 Sep 2006 19:49:33
From: Kenny
Subject: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
|
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 08:42:18
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Brucie, I'd cross the yellow line to run you down.
Are you as obnoxious on this forum as yuo are everywhere else? As
usual, you disagree with someone here.
I love your alias --- it goes along with swiftsurfer, swiftsailor,
swiftprofitmaker, swiftskier, swiftmouth. How 'bout swiftidiot and
swiftmoron as your next two aliases?
swiftcycler wrote:
> I disagree with that observation totally. I find as a motorists that
> Americans drive too close to the center line. I think that mainly
> there are a lot of lonely people out there who both think that they own
> the road and also want to let anyone coming against them that they are
> willing to assert their claims. However, this would be an indication
> that the driver would be male. I have also observed that many women
> won't cross the yellow line even when they are endangering a pedestrian
> coming against the traffic. They have this asnine view of toeing the
> line, strictly adhering to the law, which can be rather annoying. I
> find on these narrow country roads I ride that men in their pick-ups
> will not only speed but cross the yellow lines when passing. Women
> will speed but rarely cross the yellow lines even with a clear view of
> the empty road ahead. However, of course there are exceptions.
> lene Blanshay wrote:
> > Wayne Pein wrote:
> > > He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
> > > meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> > > stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> > > positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> > > clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> > > distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> > > tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> > > would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
> > >
> > > I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> > > of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> > > more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
> > >
> > > Wayne
> > >
> > i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
> > tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
> > practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
> > This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
> > a hurry? Take the highway!"
> >
> > it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
> > yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well, and I've
> > seen it in american cities. Cars drive by like 2 inches from the
> > sidewalk. No wonder i hear so many horror stories from cyclists... as
> > bad as drivers here are, they at least give you some leeway even if they
> > honk or yell at you.
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 15:46:14
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
oneup.again@gmail.com wrote:
> Brucie, I'd cross the yellow line to run you down.
>
> Are you as obnoxious on this forum as yuo are everywhere else? As
> usual, you disagree with someone here.
>
> I love your alias --- it goes along with swiftsurfer, swiftsailor,
> swiftprofitmaker, swiftskier, swiftmouth. How 'bout swiftidiot and
> swiftmoron as your next two aliases?
>
Top-posting anonymous moron makes threats while exhibiting hypocrisy at its
most ironic.
Doesn't get much better than that...
*******
> swiftcycler wrote:
{who cares}
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 03:21:37
From: swiftcycler
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
>>As far as I can see there are only a few rules, but they certainly are heavily
enforced - both by police and other drivers. You step out of line
there and
people will honk, curse, gesture... and it's not just some wacko...
it's
several people at once. But that's what I mean by almost everybody
playing by
the same rules.<< J-walking is an interesting case. As a Bostonian I
J-walk as a way of life. In Munich stepping into the street against
the pedestrian light could cause a riot. In N.Y.C. you just get run
over and left for the street cleaners. You don't even get the
attention of the Criminal Intent croud.
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Kristian M Zoerhoff:
> >My take is that the rules in Germany are ruthlessly enforced, and the training
> >is longer and more detailed. Most drivers in the US play by the rules, but it
> >seems that some folks do get fuzzy on just what the rules are.
>
> As far as I can see there are only a few rules, but they certainly are heavily
> enforced - both by police and other drivers. You step out of line there and
> people will honk, curse, gesture... and it's not just some wacko... it's
> several people at once. But that's what I mean by almost everybody playing by
> the same rules.
>
> I'd like to hear how they're dealing with the cell
> phone/text-messaging/email-reading problem over there. My guess is that the
> "ruthless enforcement" takes care of much of it just by nailing people who
> wander over lines without signaling or clog the passing lane.
>
>
> Here, I'll agree that most people are playing by the rules. It's just that
> there are too many sets of rules. I think the "Set the pace for safety"
> campaign did a significant amount of damage that is only now starting to be
> cleared up as some states are writing tickets for "impeding the flow of
> traffic".
>
> OTOH, I've watched my 20-something German nephew literally sweat while
> driving... and the relatives that come over hear on vacation (motor heads
> all...) all comment on how much less stressful it is to drive in the USA. I
> think the lack of having to share the road with triple tractor trailers pulling
> out to pass at 40 mph on one side and Porches doing 150+ on the other side had
> something to do with it.... -)
> --
> PeteCresswell
|
| |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 03:17:34
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
> Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
RIght. A sample size of ONE rider. That's right, ONE rider, who emulated
male & female by using a wig or not. This is not good science. It's not even
a good story.
It makes the case of over 1000 cars, which is fine, reasonable sample size.
But it draws conclusions based upon an unobserved single participant (who
just happens to be the author of the study, and who just happens to have
been hit TWICE during the study after having been passed by 2500 motorists.
Think about what that's saying. Let's assume he worse the helmet half the
time, and both times he was hit he was wearing the helmet. If that's the
case, then his rate of being physically hit by a passing car is ONCE EVERY
625 CARS!!! If this were typical, most of us wouldn't live long enough to
figure out the next version of Windows, Linux, or Apple OS-X.
Complete & total nonsense. It could be that the premise actually is true...
that cars may in fact actually pass closer to a helmeted cyclist than a
non-helmeted cyclist... but there is nothing in that experiment to support
that, due to the absurd flaws in how it was run. Other than to suggest that
the author is a terribly unskilled cyclist, that is. That conclusion is
inescapable.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 18:51:50
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> RIght. A sample size of ONE rider. That's right, ONE rider, who emulated
> male & female by using a wig or not. This is not good science. It's not even
> a good story.
>
> It makes the case of over 1000 cars, which is fine, reasonable sample size.
> But it draws conclusions based upon an unobserved single participant (who
> just happens to be the author of the study, and who just happens to have
> been hit TWICE during the study after having been passed by 2500 motorists.
>
> Think about what that's saying. Let's assume he worse the helmet half the
> time, and both times he was hit he was wearing the helmet. If that's the
> case, then his rate of being physically hit by a passing car is ONCE EVERY
> 625 CARS!!! If this were typical, most of us wouldn't live long enough to
> figure out the next version of Windows, Linux, or Apple OS-X.
>
> Complete & total nonsense. It could be that the premise actually is true...
> that cars may in fact actually pass closer to a helmeted cyclist than a
> non-helmeted cyclist... but there is nothing in that experiment to support
> that, due to the absurd flaws in how it was run. Other than to suggest that
> the author is a terribly unskilled cyclist, that is. That conclusion is
> inescapable.
>
Good observation.
He was able to be very precise in his passing distance measurement due
to using ultrasound, plotting increments of 5 cm, about 2 inches. But
his lateral position was in increments of .25 meters (25 cm) 5 times as
much, and there was no mention of how his lateral position was measured.
It seems to me any variation in passing distance was likely overwhelmed
by variation in lateral position.
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 07:37:13
From: Buck
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Jim Higson wrote:
> Anyway, if you want cars to give you more room, look wobbly as they
> approach :)
I find this to be true in some cases. This morning was one such case. I
moved into a right turn lane at a four-way stop. The lady behind me
stayed in the through lane. She slammed on the brakes when my front
wheel went left as I executed a track stand. I suppose she thought I
was about to dart back into the left lane in front of her. Perhaps I
should look more wobbly more often.
-Buck
|
| | |
Date: 14 Sep 2006 08:30:51
From: Jim Higson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Buck wrote:
> Jim Higson wrote:
>> Anyway, if you want cars to give you more room, look wobbly as they
>> approach :)
>
> I find this to be true in some cases. This morning was one such case. I
> moved into a right turn lane at a four-way stop. The lady behind me
> stayed in the through lane. She slammed on the brakes when my front
> wheel went left as I executed a track stand. I suppose she thought I
> was about to dart back into the left lane in front of her. Perhaps I
> should look more wobbly more often.
Funny, since this thread I've been feeling a little offended if a car
overtakes and give me too much room!
--
Jim
|
| |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 07:21:46
From: ycleptor2@cs.com
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Thanks Carl. Although I'm somewhat disappointed. I was hoping it was
done with two insert cars fitted with theodolites.
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08 -0700, "ycleptor2@cs.com" <ycleptor2@cs.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
> >
> >http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
> >
> >It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
> >
> >Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
> >Cheers,
> >MD
> >
> >
> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >> Kenny wrote:
> >> > Kenny wrote:
> >> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >> >
> >> > Forgot about this link.
> >> >
> >> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
> >>
> >> Dear Kenny,
> >>
> >> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> >> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> Dear YC,
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/691047edda1c010e
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 17:29:57
From: oldhickory
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
A former riding partner of mine used to ride with a 9mm shoved down the back
of his shorts, the butt of the gun exposed enough for overtaking vehicles to
see. Said it brought the near-miss rate with vehicles down considerably. I
think it was when he rode in AZ where exposed side arms were legal.
--
ie
ride fast, take chances.
<ycleptor2@cs.com > wrote in message
news:1158157306.232165.94360@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks Carl. Although I'm somewhat disappointed. I was hoping it was
> done with two insert cars fitted with theodolites.
>
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08 -0700, "ycleptor2@cs.com" <ycleptor2@cs.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
>> >
>> >http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
>> >
>> >It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
>> >
>> >Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
>> >Cheers,
>> >MD
>> >
>> >
>> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> Kenny wrote:
>> >> > Kenny wrote:
>> >> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>> >> >
>> >> > Forgot about this link.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>> >>
>> >> Dear Kenny,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>> >> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> Carl Fogel
>>
>> Dear YC,
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/691047edda1c010e
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 18:24:36
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
In article <peXNg.831$vD2.463@tornado.texas.rr.com >, inboxie@yahoo.com
says...
> A former riding partner of mine used to ride with a 9mm shoved down the back
> of his shorts, the butt of the gun exposed enough for overtaking vehicles to
> see.
>
Too subtle for the kind of drivers I'm most worried about. It's hard
for them to see the road (let alone a cyclist, or whether that cyclist
is carrying) with the competing demands of dialing the cell phone,
drinking their Starbucks Venti and applying makeup.
Rick
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 16:50:49
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Per Espressopithecus:
> It's hard
>for them to see the road (let alone a cyclist, or whether that cyclist
>is carrying) with the competing demands of dialing the cell phone,
>drinking their Starbucks Venti and applying makeup.
And don't forget text messaging and checking eMail....-)
--
PeteCresswell
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:12:09
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
In rec.bicycles.misc Espressopithecus (Java Man) <rickk@letterectomytelus.net > wrote:
> In article <peXNg.831$vD2.463@tornado.texas.rr.com>, inboxie@yahoo.com
> says...
>> A former riding partner of mine used to ride with a 9mm shoved down the back
>> of his shorts, the butt of the gun exposed enough for overtaking vehicles to
>> see.
>>
> Too subtle for the kind of drivers I'm most worried about. It's hard
> for them to see the road (let alone a cyclist, or whether that cyclist
> is carrying) with the competing demands of dialing the cell phone,
> drinking their Starbucks Venti and applying makeup.
Well that, and how can you possibly expect them to pay attention to the
road with all the racket the kids in the back on the SUV are making? [1]
Also it's patently unfair to expect them to share the road with scruffy
cyclists. After all, you can pick one up at Wally world for $69 bucks,
so you should make way for their $60,000 life necessity.
[1] Behind carefully tinted windows. Wouldn't want anyone to think
you're not a sexy successful single. [2]
[2] http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0212.mencimer.html
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Why would you want to be born again? Didn't you get it right
the first time?" -Angela
|
| |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 05:31:47
From: swiftcycler
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
When I was that age '65-'66, Driver's Ed was compulsorary for anyone
taking a driver's test in Ma. as I remember. Today, all the rules I
learned aren't even in the book they pass out as prep for the written
test. In fact, it is worded in vague terms and most of the figures
have been eliminated. In other words you are allowed to follow at a
>>safe distance<< another vehicle travelling in the same lane and not >>three car lengths<< behind it.
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:08:32 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff
> <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In every state I've lived in, driver's ed was part of the standard curriculum
> >in high school, usually for students aged 15-16. Here in Illinois, schools are
> >required by state law to teach it. Naturally, it's the bare minimum of
> >training, but it does exist.
>
> There was such a class in my high school, but it wasn't required. And
> training isn't required to get a license -- the driver just has to
> pass the tests.
>
> When I got my license the driving test included starting, parking,
> driving on the road (which involved interaction with other cars). But
> there were few or no bikes or pedestrians around, so dealing with them
> was not part of the test.
>
> The written test may have referred to non-automotive road users, but I
> don't remember.
>
> This is referring to New York and Massachusetts.
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
|
| |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 05:25:23
From: swiftcycler
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
I disagree with that observation totally. I find as a motorists that
Americans drive too close to the center line. I think that mainly
there are a lot of lonely people out there who both think that they own
the road and also want to let anyone coming against them that they are
willing to assert their claims. However, this would be an indication
that the driver would be male. I have also observed that many women
won't cross the yellow line even when they are endangering a pedestrian
coming against the traffic. They have this asnine view of toeing the
line, strictly adhering to the law, which can be rather annoying. I
find on these narrow country roads I ride that men in their pick-ups
will not only speed but cross the yellow lines when passing. Women
will speed but rarely cross the yellow lines even with a clear view of
the empty road ahead. However, of course there are exceptions.
lene Blanshay wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
> > He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
> > meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> > stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> > positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> > clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> > distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> > tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> > would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
> >
> > I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> > of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> > more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
> tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
> practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
> This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
> a hurry? Take the highway!"
>
> it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
> yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well, and I've
> seen it in american cities. Cars drive by like 2 inches from the
> sidewalk. No wonder i hear so many horror stories from cyclists... as
> bad as drivers here are, they at least give you some leeway even if they
> honk or yell at you.
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 20:54:38
From: 41
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Chalo wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
> >
> > Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.
>
> Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
> run me over as an act of mercy.
But do you really think that guy who did wear the wig was mistaken for
a woman either? I bet when they came up behind him, it was more like,
blimey, a bloody trannie, stear clear!
|
| | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 05:19:37
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
In rec.bicycles.misc 41 <KingGeorgeXLI@yahoo.fr > wrote:
> Chalo wrote:
>> RonSonic wrote:
>> >
>> > Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.
>>
>> Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
>> run me over as an act of mercy.
>
> But do you really think that guy who did wear the wig was mistaken for
> a woman either? I bet when they came up behind him, it was more like,
> blimey, a bloody trannie, stear clear!
Oh, I don't know. I'm a fairly big fellow, and I have quite a bit of
body hair, but I also have long hair. I've been on the receiving end of
a few wolf whistles from passing cars. Of course when I turned towards
them as they passed, they looked awfully sheepish.
It can be hard to pick out the smaller details when you're passing
someone in a car.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
`They didn't call him Erik Bloodaxe because he was good with children.'
--National Geograhic, May 2000
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 13:33:57
From: ycleptor2@cs.com
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
But did he use a ruler? Laser range finder? Or just eyeball it?
Wayne Pein wrote:
> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
>
> I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
>
> Wayne
|
| | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 00:24:00
From: Paul Hobson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
>> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
>> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
>> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
>> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
>> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
>> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
>> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
ycleptor2@cs.com wrote:
> But did he use a ruler? Laser range finder? Or just eyeball it?
Sonic/doppler thingamabob[1]
--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
.:change the f to ph to reply:.
[1]scientifically speaking, of course
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 13:18:14
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
RonSonic wrote:
>
> Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.
Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
run me over as an act of mercy.
Chalo
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 20:51:31
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On 12 Sep 2006 13:18:14 -0700, "Chalo" <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
>RonSonic wrote:
>>
>> Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.
>
>Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
>run me over as an act of mercy.
And risk that much damage to the vehicle?
I remember riding along on a paved trail and approaching this alarming figure
from behind. Huge bulky shoulders over bikini straps, short shorts and shaved
legs. Turned out to be a serious clydesdale tri guy with a HRM strap and a water
bottle hanging around his neck.
Ron
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08
From: ycleptor2@cs.com
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
Cheers,
MD
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> > Kenny wrote:
> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >
> > Forgot about this link.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>
> Dear Kenny,
>
> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:31:47
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08 -0700, "ycleptor2@cs.com" <ycleptor2@cs.com >
wrote:
>Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
>
>http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
>
>It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
>
>Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
>Cheers,
>MD
>
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Kenny wrote:
>> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>> >
>> > Forgot about this link.
>> >
>> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>>
>> Dear Kenny,
>>
>> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
Dear YC,
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/691047edda1c010e
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 20:28:00
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real “gutter bunny”) and 1.25
meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
Wayne
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 22:04:26
From: Marlene Blanshay
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Wayne Pein wrote:
> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real “gutter bunny”) and 1.25
> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
>
> I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
>
> Wayne
>
i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
a hurry? Take the highway!"
it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well, and I've
seen it in american cities. Cars drive by like 2 inches from the
sidewalk. No wonder i hear so many horror stories from cyclists... as
bad as drivers here are, they at least give you some leeway even if they
honk or yell at you.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 23:38:29
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Per lene Blanshay:
>i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
>tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
>practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
>This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
>a hurry? Take the highway!"
>
> it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
>yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well...
What country are you in?
One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I know, there is no compulsory
driver training in the USA. Driving here (USA), and driving in Germany my
take is that in Germany almost everybody is playing by the same set of rules...
but here in the USA few are.
To wit, try starting a thread on the proper way to enter a controlled access
highway. The result will be a very long series of contradictory rants.
--
PeteCresswell
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:08:32
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
In article <p4veg21hlr7imj70kgeu3c73epp23en75r@4ax.com >, x@y.Invalid says...
>
> What country are you in?
I believe lene was in Canada. Eh.
> One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I know, there is no compulsory
> driver training in the USA.
In every state I've lived in, driver's ed was part of the standard curriculum
in high school, usually for students aged 15-16. Here in Illinois, schools are
required by state law to teach it. Naturally, it's the bare minimum of
training, but it does exist.
For those moving to the US, most every state requires you to pass a road test
the first time you get a license (this sometimes applies when moving between
states as well). The problem is that road tests aren't required very often
after that, sometimes only after you accumulate several traffic tickets, or
reach a certain advanced age (75 or 80).
Training in the US could be a lot better, but it's as much a problem of
enforcement as anything else.
> Driving here (USA), and driving in Germany my
> take is that in Germany almost everybody is playing by the same set of rules...
> but here in the USA few are.
My take is that the rules in Germany are ruthlessly enforced, and the training
is longer and more detailed. Most drivers in the US play by the rules, but it
seems that some folks do get fuzzy on just what the rules are.
> To wit, try starting a thread on the proper way to enter a controlled access
> highway. The result will be a very long series of contradictory rants.
Since bikes are banned from controlled-access freeways in most US states, why
bother :-)
[Redirecting follow-ups to r.b.misc. Not much tech in this post.]
--
__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 10:34:35
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Per Kristian M Zoerhoff:
>My take is that the rules in Germany are ruthlessly enforced, and the training
>is longer and more detailed. Most drivers in the US play by the rules, but it
>seems that some folks do get fuzzy on just what the rules are.
As far as I can see there are only a few rules, but they certainly are heavily
enforced - both by police and other drivers. You step out of line there and
people will honk, curse, gesture... and it's not just some wacko... it's
several people at once. But that's what I mean by almost everybody playing by
the same rules.
I'd like to hear how they're dealing with the cell
phone/text-messaging/email-reading problem over there. My guess is that the
"ruthless enforcement" takes care of much of it just by nailing people who
wander over lines without signaling or clog the passing lane.
Here, I'll agree that most people are playing by the rules. It's just that
there are too many sets of rules. I think the "Set the pace for safety"
campaign did a significant amount of damage that is only now starting to be
cleared up as some states are writing tickets for "impeding the flow of
traffic".
OTOH, I've watched my 20-something German nephew literally sweat while
driving... and the relatives that come over hear on vacation (motor heads
all...) all comment on how much less stressful it is to drive in the USA. I
think the lack of having to share the road with triple tractor trailers pulling
out to pass at 40 mph on one side and Porches doing 150+ on the other side had
something to do with it.... -)
--
PeteCresswell
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 08:33:21
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:08:32 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff
<kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote:
>In every state I've lived in, driver's ed was part of the standard curriculum
>in high school, usually for students aged 15-16. Here in Illinois, schools are
>required by state law to teach it. Naturally, it's the bare minimum of
>training, but it does exist.
There was such a class in my high school, but it wasn't required. And
training isn't required to get a license -- the driver just has to
pass the tests.
When I got my license the driving test included starting, parking,
driving on the road (which involved interaction with other cars). But
there were few or no bikes or pedestrians around, so dealing with them
was not part of the test.
The written test may have referred to non-automotive road users, but I
don't remember.
This is referring to New York and Massachusetts.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 07:12:37
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> > Kenny wrote:
> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >
> > Forgot about this link.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>
> Dear Kenny,
>
> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
Where can I get a Bell(tm) brand Rapunzel Wig? Always looking for that
safety edge!
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 10:45:46
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On 12 Sep 2006 07:12:37 -0700, "landotter" <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Kenny wrote:
>> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>> >
>> > Forgot about this link.
>> >
>> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>>
>> Dear Kenny,
>>
>> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>
>
>Where can I get a Bell(tm) brand Rapunzel Wig? Always looking for that
>safety edge!
Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.
Ron
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 09:53:40
From: Jim Higson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Kenny wrote:
> Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
The argument seems to be that you're taken as being a more competent cyclist
as a helmet wearer.
It would be interesting to see if motorists give less room to road bikes
with drop handlebars than mountain or utility bikes on the road.
Anyway, if you want cars to give you more room, look wobbly as they
approach :)
--
Jim
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:38:05
From: Cathy Kearns
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
"Jim Higson" <jh@333.org > wrote in message
news:aJOdnRSCna8L6JvYnZ2dnUVZ8s-dnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> Anyway, if you want cars to give you more room, look wobbly as they
> approach :)
Certainly works with bikes. I know last week when my husband and I were
out on a ride there was a guy riding no hands, with his front wheel wobbling
all about, and we thought long and hard about passing him, waited until we
could give him a really wide berth, and then hi-tailed it by him.
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 05:00:08
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
In the version I saw:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2352964,00.html
He covered a distance of 320km and got hit twice. I think he isn't
the guy I want doing my bicycle research. He's a hazard. Something
doesn't add up here.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 22:26:55
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:45063ed8$0$34563$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> In the version I saw:
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2352964,00.html
>
> He covered a distance of 320km and got hit twice. I think he isn't
> the guy I want doing my bicycle research. He's a hazard. Something
> doesn't add up here.
>
I have the same reaction. If I had this kind of accident rate, I would have
given up cycling long ago (after 320 km, in fact).
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 06:32:23
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> In the version I saw:
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2352964,00.html
>
> He covered a distance of 320km and got hit twice. I think he isn't
> the guy I want doing my bicycle research. He's a hazard. Something
> doesn't add up here.
But...but...Carl already said he approves. (And presumably cross- or
re-posted it to tech for who-knows-what-good-reason.)
And they said the /pro/-lid people scare monger... BS
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 20:52:55
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >
> >Kenny wrote:
> >> Kenny wrote:
> >> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >>
> >> Forgot about this link.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
> >
> >Dear Kenny,
> >
> >Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> >hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Carl Fogel
>
> And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
>
> http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
>
> It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
> that some posters may not read that far.
No, they'll get to the part where he says helmets are useful in
low-speed crashes, and could be a benefit for children, then dismiss
the rest out of hand.
E.P.
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Kenny wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>
> Forgot about this link.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
Dear Kenny,
Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:35:17
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1158031657.004843.19500@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kenny wrote:
> > Kenny wrote:
> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >
> > Forgot about this link.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>
> Dear Kenny,
>
> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
>
Carl,
How can you apply his test results worldwide when he gathered his data
in a country where they drive on the WRONG side of the road!
Also, drivers in the UK play a lot more "who's going to blink first",
for example in round-abouts, they try to avoid eye contact.
Chas.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 21:31:22
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>Kenny wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>>
>> Forgot about this link.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>
>Dear Kenny,
>
>Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
that some posters may not read that far.
CF
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 10:35:45
From:
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:31:22 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Kenny wrote:
>>> Kenny wrote:
>>> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>>>
>>> Forgot about this link.
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>>
>>Dear Kenny,
>>
>>Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>>hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel
>
>And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
>
>http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
>
>It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
>that some posters may not read that far.
>
No, they'll get to the part where it is mentioned that the article has
been accepted for publication in the journal Accident Analysis &
Prevention, and then they'll say that you can prove anything with
statistics, and that the author clearly has never ridden a bicycle,
and that if he had he most assuredly would have had an accident that
proves his study "innacurate".
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 21:12:44
From: Chris Neary
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
>>> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>>>
>>> Forgot about this link.
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>>
>>Dear Kenny,
>>
>>Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>>hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel
>
>And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
>
>http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
>
>It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
>that some posters may not read that far.
Interesting research, though I'd love to see the raw data rather than the
few sumized graphs provided.
I would point out that all the provided average passing distances exceed the
minimum legal distance used in some states (3 feet). It would be valuable to
see standard deviations for the various datasets to determine what portion
of the different vehicle classes failed to meet the legal standard.
The other aspect that jumps out at me is the results are apt to be
culturally influenced, so it would be unwise to expect the same results
(good or bad) elsewhere.
Chris Neary
diabloridr@tcsn.net
"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 19:52:42
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Kenny wrote:
> Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
Forgot about this link.
http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 04:07:59
From: Richard B
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
"Kenny" <Postoasted@gmail.com > wrote in
news:1158029562.031196.180500@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> Kenny wrote:
>> Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>
> Forgot about this link.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>
I notice that the Dr Walker states ""We know from research that many
drivers see cyclists as a separate subculture, to which they don't
belong, as a result they hold stereotyped ideas about cyclists, often
judging all riders by the yardstick of the lycra-clad street-warrior.
This may lead drivers to believe cyclists with helmets are more serious,
experienced and predictable than those without."
My question is; did the study have the rider wearing lycra cycling gear
during the study and were alternate types of clothing evauated as part
of the study?
I certainly did not see any such evaluation in the study paper.
It seems as though the study is incomplete without evaluation of the
effect of differing types of clothing as part of the data.
If the motorist classes cyclists wearing helmets as "the lycra-clad
street-warrior" then wearing lycra cycling clothes should result in a
similar measurements in passing distance.
I really find it difficult to belive that motorists actually notice and
evaluate if a cyclist is wearing a helmet or not.
Richard B.
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 04:33:22
From: Richard B
Subject: Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!
|
Richard B <blueSPAMMENOTrandonee@gmail.com > wrote in
news:Xns983BD6FA5A723bluerandoneegmailcom@216.168.3.50:
> "Kenny" <Postoasted@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1158029562.031196.180500@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>> Kenny wrote:
>>> Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>>
>> Forgot about this link.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
>>
>
> I notice that the Dr Walker states ""We know from research that many
> drivers see cyclists as a separate subculture, to which they don't
> belong, as a result they hold stereotyped ideas about cyclists, often
> judging all riders by the yardstick of the lycra-clad street-warrior.
> This may lead drivers to believe cyclists with helmets are more
> serious, experienced and predictable than those without."
>
> My question is; did the study have the rider wearing lycra cycling
> gear during the study and were alternate types of clothing evauated as
> part of the study?
>
> I certainly did not see any such evaluation in the study paper.
>
> It seems as though the study is incomplete without evaluation of the
> effect of differing types of clothing as part of the data.
>
> If the motorist classes cyclists wearing helmets as "the lycra-clad
> street-warrior" then wearing lycra cycling clothes should result in a
> similar measurements in passing distance.
>
> I really find it difficult to belive that motorists actually notice
> and evaluate if a cyclist is wearing a helmet or not.
>
> Richard B.
>
It just occured to me...
They sould make force helmet manufacturers to make all helmets look like
long wigs and prohibit Lycra/spandex cycling gear.
Rihard B.
|
|
