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Main Date: 16 Oct 2006 04:20:29 From: ship Subject: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Hi What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in UK) I am looking for something that is: b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE a) Bright in colour /reflective at night c) ultra-Compact d) nearly(+) waterproof e) COOL Plus ideally: f) aerodyamic/elastic?? g) fairly durable? Budget: upto GBP 300. So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely satisfactory. For completely waterproof, the best I can find is Gore Paclite. Costs about GBP120-160, which is fine. The problem is it ISNT VERY BREATHABLE. But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. The big problem is keeping cool & getting rid of *SWEAT* because I dont have a shower at work. I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable, *massively* breathable and though not *technically* waterproof it will keep out even a down-poor. It has no membrane and is thus implicitly resistant to puncturing and is highly durable... It has vents for the armpits which is helpful too. It's a fabulous jacket in the cold season in the scottish mountains. .=2E.BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy). i=2Ee. you cant compress it to fit into a pack very easily, and you get far too hot when wearing it. AND they dont make a bright yellow/pale orange varient nor anything with reflectors on for night time use. - So... any recommendations? Ship Shiperton Henethe P=2ES. There are some very expensive (GBP 250-350 ) Gore jackets which I havent been able to find in any shop (in Central London) e.g. Evans Waterloo didnt have them... But on their website at least they didnt seem to have them in BRIGHT colours (just dark blues and blacks...) e=2Eg. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" =A3349.99 e=2Eg. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" =A3259.99 .=2E.   Date: 27 Oct 2006 05:55:55 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Pete Biggs wrote: > ship wrote: > > > All you need is a pair of LEDs after all! > > Try it with coloured paper. Maybe using LEDs is cheating if they scatter > some light into your central vision. Yes a fair point. It's hard not to have back-scatter/reflection from other objects in the the field of view - which tends to give the game away! When looking straight ahead I can see red bouncing off my nose! Although theory says that that too is impossible. So perhaps the answer would be to use a laser. (Or a pair of differently coloured lasers.) And to do it on someone else - afterall I dont want my retina cooked by someone stranger's stubbornness in a some newsgroup...! It's certainly true that one could build VERY much better experiments. Actually I know what I'll do I'll ask my er optometrist (if that's the correct word) and see what he says on the subject. Peripheral vision is presumably something that he has to test regularly - and he will have all the equipment needed to do so. * * * As an aside, one of the fascinating things for me about newsgroups is how human nature works. I mean we all form these entrenched positions and start to get emotionally involved when something threatens or challenges our world view. In cognitive tests it turns out that I have the sort of mind that tends to see both sides of an argument (believe it or not) i.e. I process information in a visual & auditory plus logical & intuitive way with almost equal emphasis, which apparently is fairly unusual. (It's good for being a chairman, bad for being a decision maker/executive because it means people like me learn slowly and make decisions slowly whereas sometimes a business just needs some rapid & consistent decisions) Okay but what's so interesting about newsgroups is how often I turn out to be wrong - i.e. incorrect about something. The great joy of a newsgroup is that you can express whatever opinion you care to, and although you may get heavily flamed in the end it doesnt matter. No bones get broken. You just waste your plus several other users' time. But I do find it fascinating how in a large newsgroup there will be an astonnishing plethora of different opinions (on just about any subject). And I mean they they can't ALL be right. But they all THINK they are. And it can take a HUGE amount of counter-evidence to make someone change their mind. In fact if they have ENOUGH intellectual baggage invested into a body of "knowledge" it's quite easy to get beyond the point of being 'persuadable'. It's easy to smugly poke fun at the "flat-earth" early Christians, and all the medics who refused POINT BLANK to believe that bacteria could live in the human stomach (let alone cause ulcers, let alone have ulcers be curable by an antibiotic) etc etc But what interest me is how ALL of us are narrow minded "bigots". It's just a question of HOW bigotted and in WHICH subject areas. I live near mountains beside the sea and if I look out to Sea on a clear day I can literally see the curvature of the earth. Near Sea level boats & islands are cut off e.g. at their middles but the higher you climb up a mountain the more of them you can see. If you do the sums it's EXACTLY the amount of curvature that is predicted by a planet of the size that the scientists tell us we are. It happens in all weathers irrespective of temperature gradients (though mirages will occassionally mess things up JUST above the water) And yet there are those who still believe in the flat earth. Because with enough time and enough mental energy you can probably construct a detailed argument to support any case you chose. (Hence the need for Occam's rasor...) But aren't we humans weird? Whoops better do some work Ship     Date: 27 Oct 2006 13:20:39 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 27 Oct 2006 05:55:55 -0700, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: [snip] >Actually I know what I'll do I'll ask my er optometrist (if that's the >correct >word) and see what he says on the subject. Peripheral vision is >presumably >something that he has to test regularly - and he will have all the >equipment >needed to do so. [snip] Dear Ship, Optometrists test your vision, prescribe glasses, will refer you to an ophthalmologist if they spot eye disease, and are found mostly next to optical shops that sell the glasses that they prescribe, not in an ER. The ophthalmogist can do all that, too, but is an eye surgeon who can treat glaucoma, cataracts, detached retinas, and other problems. One may be on call for the ER, but it's unlikely that any but the largest ER will have such specialists around full-time. The specialists are down the hall in the hospital, doing surgery, or in their offices, seeing patients, or at home and hoping that the phone doesn't ring at 3 a.m. Visual eye-testing can be surprisingly tricky, since it requires tiny, well-focussed dots of light on a background that lets the patient focus steadily. Twenty years ago, I tried to rig up a cheap, simple pin-point light for my beloved, an eye-surgeon, in order to test for the arc of blind spots that grows with glaucoma. I achieved utter failure in the pre-laser-pointer era. Nowadays, blind-spot testing is done automatically at the optometrist's shop with a computer, a pleasant background, and a faint, tiny light that hops around the screen while you click as if playing a video game whenever you notice the light. Fail to notice the light, and the program will return to that area a few times to double-check and define the blind spot. Cheers, Carl Fogel       Date: 27 Oct 2006 13:57:59 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:20:39 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: [snip] >Optometrists test your vision, prescribe glasses, will refer you to an >ophthalmologist if they spot eye disease, and are found mostly next to >optical shops that sell the glasses that they prescribe, not in an ER. > >The ophthalmogist . . . [snip] Drat. The -phth- was burned into my brain many years ago by an irritated eye-surgeon--"Off-, not opp-, dammit!" But my lazy fingers contracted -mologist to -mogist on the second pass. "Eye doctor" is easier. CF         Date: 27 Oct 2006 21:56:10 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 27/10/2006 20:57 +0100: > > The -phth- was burned into my brain many years ago by an irritated > eye-surgeon--"Off-, not opp-, dammit!" > opth- is a recognised spelling in the biggest Oxford English Dictionary - presumably because it occurred so often as a spelling mistake that it became accepted. Forms: 18- ophthalmology, (irreg.) opthalmology. The branch of medicine that deals with the diseases of the eye and defects of vision. -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci           Date: 27 Oct 2006 19:00:02 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:56:10 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 27/10/2006 20:57 +0100: >> >> The -phth- was burned into my brain many years ago by an irritated >> eye-surgeon--"Off-, not opp-, dammit!" >> > >opth- is a recognised spelling in the biggest Oxford English Dictionary >- presumably because it occurred so often as a spelling mistake that it >became accepted. > >Forms: 18- ophthalmology, (irreg.) opthalmology. > > The branch of medicine that deals with the diseases of the eye and >defects of vision. Dear Tony, That's news that I could have done without, but it's the way of the world. I try to be tolerant of spelling diversity after my mis-spent youth grading freshman essays, but I still dread the day when "nickle" becomes officially recognized as a legitimate variant of "nickel"--I know that the word sounds the same either way, but somehow the dyslexic spelling seems to debase the five-cent piece. Incidentally, the truly degenerate trend is toward op-tha-mology, not only changing the -ph- to a mispronounced -p-, but also dropping any attempt to make the second -l- sound before the -m-. As my beloved once said in the flat MidWestern twang that we Coloradoans pump out of the well of English previously undefiled, dintcha no-thet naowun sez op-thal-mologee, them ells cost tew much? I never had the heart to tell her that -d-'s are cheap, so she dint know how difernt we sound then some folks. Cheers, Carl Fogel             Date: 28 Oct 2006 09:33:29 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 28/10/2006 02:00 +0100: > > Dear Tony, > > That's news that I could have done without, but it's the way of the > world. > > I try to be tolerant of spelling diversity after my mis-spent youth > grading freshman essays, but I still dread the day when "nickle" > becomes officially recognized as a legitimate variant of "nickel"--I > know that the word sounds the same either way, but somehow the > dyslexic spelling seems to debase the five-cent piece. > That is the way of language unless you would prefer to be reciting the Lord's Prayer as: Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum, Si žin nama gehalgod. To becume žin rice, gewurže šin willa, on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum. and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. sožlice. which is how it would have been said and written in England a thousand years ago. UK spelling only started to standardise with Samuel Johnson's dictionary in 1755 and in the US with Noah Webster in 1828. Indeed many of the differences between UK and US English spelling are because of the different approaches to spelling that these two individuals took in their dictionaries of conservative etymological and and simplified phonetic respectively and the differences in meaning from the divergence of the languages from the c17th. Even as recently as 1996, the German speaking nations completely overhauled their spelling system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996 See what an education you get from visiting urc Carl ;-) -- Tony "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw               Date: 29 Oct 2006 01:00:07 From: Andrew Price Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:33:29 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: [---] >Even as recently as 1996, the German speaking nations completely >overhauled their spelling system. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996 Which was a total mess, as you can see from reading that article, which presents the situation as it was by mid 2005, and points out the large amount of dissent from both the public, respected academics and writers, as well as the press. In later developments, most of the really silly changes proposed have been dumped, and a more sensible set of rules is supposed to be ready by 2007.                 Date: 28 Oct 2006 17:24:23 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:00:07 +0200, Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr > wrote: >On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:33:29 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com> >wrote: > >[---] > >>Even as recently as 1996, the German speaking nations completely >>overhauled their spelling system. >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996 > >Which was a total mess, as you can see from reading that article, >which presents the situation as it was by mid 2005, and points out the >large amount of dissent from both the public, respected academics and >writers, as well as the press. > >In later developments, most of the really silly changes proposed have >been dumped, and a more sensible set of rules is supposed to be ready >by 2007. Dear Andrew, ORTHOGRAPHY, n. The science of spelling by the eye instead of the ear. Advocated with more heat than light by the outmates of every asylum for the insane. They have had to concede a few things since the time of Chaucer, but are none the less hot in defence of those to be conceded hereafter. A spelling reformer indicted For fudge was before the court cicted. The judge said: "Enough— His candle we'll snough, And his sepulchre shall not be whicted." --Bierce I never know which side I'm on, but I suspect that the mob cannot-- Er, the people cannot be ordered. They must be led. Cheers, Carl Fogel                   Date: 29 Oct 2006 18:22:31 From: Andrew Price Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:24:23 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: >ORTHOGRAPHY, n. [---] >I never know which side I'm on, but I suspect that the mob cannot-- > >Er, the people cannot be ordered. They must be led. I suspect you may be right, as long as they're led in the right direction. The really silly thing about the failed German spelling reform was that (at least in comparison with some other languages) it *just wasn't necessary* . As it was, the spelling was already very largely phonetic, like modern Italian, perhaps even more so. In their mania to simply what wasn't really necessary, they unnecessarily complicated one of the few rules which could be a stumbling block to slow learners, the distinction between "ss" and "ß" (which the Swiss had already unceremoniously sent packing the best part of a century ago).               Date: 28 Oct 2006 12:14:29 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:33:29 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 28/10/2006 02:00 +0100: >> >> Dear Tony, >> >> That's news that I could have done without, but it's the way of the >> world. >> >> I try to be tolerant of spelling diversity after my mis-spent youth >> grading freshman essays, but I still dread the day when "nickle" >> becomes officially recognized as a legitimate variant of "nickel"--I >> know that the word sounds the same either way, but somehow the >> dyslexic spelling seems to debase the five-cent piece. >> > >That is the way of language unless you would prefer to be reciting the >Lord's Prayer as: > > Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum, > Si žin nama gehalgod. > To becume žin rice, > gewurže šin willa, on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. > urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg, > and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum. > and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. sožlice. > >which is how it would have been said and written in England a thousand >years ago. UK spelling only started to standardise with Samuel >Johnson's dictionary in 1755 and in the US with Noah Webster in 1828. >Indeed many of the differences between UK and US English spelling are >because of the different approaches to spelling that these two >individuals took in their dictionaries of conservative etymological and > and simplified phonetic respectively and the differences in meaning >from the divergence of the languages from the c17th. > >Even as recently as 1996, the German speaking nations completely >overhauled their spelling system. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996 > >See what an education you get from visiting urc Carl ;-) Dear Tony, Well, it's roughly what Professors Ross and Tripp taught me in Old English and linguistics classes circa 1980. Tripp also commented that there was a widespread tendency among young Germans to ignore the more complicated rules of pronouns and articles. But a refresher is always interesting. :) Cheers, Carl Fogel           Date: 27 Oct 2006 18:39:32 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4qfa3dFmq798U1@individual.net >, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 27/10/2006 20:57 +0100: > > > > The -phth- was burned into my brain many years ago by an irritated > > eye-surgeon--"Off-, not opp-, dammit!" > > > > opth- is a recognised spelling in the biggest Oxford English > Dictionary - presumably because it occurred so often as a spelling > mistake that it became accepted. > > Forms: 18- ophthalmology, (irreg.) opthalmology. > > The branch of medicine that deals with the diseases of the eye and > defects of vision. Ophthamologists are trained in ophtics.             Date: 28 Oct 2006 08:54:11 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote on 28/10/2006 00:39 +0100: > > Ophthamologists are trained in ophtics. ITYM Ophthics -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci               Date: 28 Oct 2006 10:56:52 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4qggl4Fn3pk3U1@individual.net >, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: > Tim McNaa wrote on 28/10/2006 00:39 +0100: > > > > Ophthamologists are trained in ophtics. > > ITYM Ophthics Point taken. Thanks for clarifying. I'm feeling a but phthick myself these days.                 Date: 28 Oct 2006 17:04:19 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote on 28/10/2006 16:56 +0100: > In article <4qggl4Fn3pk3U1@individual.net>, > Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com> wrote: > >> Tim McNaa wrote on 28/10/2006 00:39 +0100: >>> Ophthamologists are trained in ophtics. >> ITYM Ophthics > > Point taken. Thanks for clarifying. I'm feeling a but phthick myself > these days. Don't menthion it ;-) -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci             Date: 27 Oct 2006 19:05:05 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:39:32 -0500, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: >In article <4qfa3dFmq798U1@individual.net>, > Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com> wrote: > >> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote on 27/10/2006 20:57 +0100: >> > >> > The -phth- was burned into my brain many years ago by an irritated >> > eye-surgeon--"Off-, not opp-, dammit!" >> > >> >> opth- is a recognised spelling in the biggest Oxford English >> Dictionary - presumably because it occurred so often as a spelling >> mistake that it became accepted. >> >> Forms: 18- ophthalmology, (irreg.) opthalmology. >> >> The branch of medicine that deals with the diseases of the eye and >> defects of vision. > >Ophthamologists are trained in ophtics. Dear Tim, I just replied to Tony about how oph-thal-mology has become not just opp-thal-mology, but even opp-tha-mology, with one -l- vanishing. Call 'em eye-doctors. I did until I began watching one put her contacts in at the bathroom sink, muttering that only fools put foreign objects in their eyes. Cheers, Carl Fogel   Date: 27 Oct 2006 05:19:35 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Don Whybrow wrote: > ship wrote: > <... home science 101 ...> > > I will leave you to your delusions. > Your arrogance is gob-smacking. Ship   Date: 26 Oct 2006 12:57:38 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > At least you have managed to prove to yourself that you are unique. No, I have proved that either I am unique OR you are incorrect in this matter. Don you are starting to sound like a bigot. i.e. You have made your own mind up. Hang the 1st hand empirical evidence. You know best. And NOTHING will change your mind. At least not until it's a peer-reviewed, double-blind, placebo controlled study. Don, have you actually *tried* the experiment yourself? All you need is a pair of LEDs after all! Okay this is your last chance. I just tried it again for the third and final time. This time what was particularly interesting was that I managed to fool myself. I started at the very corner of my vision (i.e. < 90+ degrees) and then gradually moved it forwards, this time I was sure that that I had pressed the on button for the white LED... and then when I slowly got to about 80-85 degrees of axis, I thought: strange - that white it really does look rather red! How much more "proof" do you need flat earth man? It was also interesting how - in the very VERY corner of my eye at about say 80 or 85 decrees I *definitely* couldnt tell you which colour it was. In fact when *flashing* red I noticed that it was quite hard to tell which colour it was even relatively quite *close* the the direction of vision - in fact it wasnt until I moved it to less than say 20 or 30 degrees off axis I could see for 100% sure that that it was red. HOWEVER, when the LED was on *constant* red (i.e. not flashing) it immediately became VERY much clearer that it was red from all angles. In fact it remained pretty clearly red even until about 70 or 80 degrees. * * * All of which I have just realised conveniently backs up 'my' theory (in fact some other scientist whos article I read several years ago) that red cones respond very *slowly* to change - i.e. it's hard to see that something is RED when it is moving across the field of vision. I can certainly *see* it flashing away - it looks bright enough but its *colour* is harder to see when flashing. And of course from a perceptual point of view, it is the perceived intensity of the colour is what will draw one attension to something (e.g. the driver perceiving the a cyclist wearing a red coat, particularly out of the corner of the eye - which as you may recall was how the thread originally started!) Ship     Date: 26 Oct 2006 22:13:50 From: Don Whybrow Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: <... home science 101 ... > I will leave you to your delusions. -- Don Whybrow Sequi Bonum Non Time "So tell me, just how long have you had this feeling that no one is watching you?" (Christopher Locke: Entropy Gradient Reversals)     Date: 26 Oct 2006 21:28:34 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > All you need is a pair of LEDs after all! Try it with coloured paper. Maybe using LEDs is cheating if they scatter some light into your central vision. ~PB   Date: 25 Oct 2006 09:13:58 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1160997629.706562.73630@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... Hi What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in UK) I am looking for something that is: The coldest winter I have ever spent was when we were scheduled to go to the Artic and had prepared for artic weather but our destination changed mid flight to take us to England. It took us a very, very cold month to get the necessary clothing. b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE a) Bright in colour /reflective at night c) ultra-Compact d) nearly(+) waterproof e) COOL Plus ideally: f) aerodyamic/elastic?? g) fairly durable? Budget: upto GBP 300. So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely satisfactory. For completely waterproof, the best I can find is Gore Paclite. Costs about GBP120-160, which is fine. The problem is it ISNT VERY BREATHABLE. But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. The big problem is keeping cool & getting rid of *SWEAT* because I dont have a shower at work. I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable, *massively* breathable and though not *technically* waterproof it will keep out even a down-poor. It has no membrane and is thus implicitly resistant to puncturing and is highly durable... It has vents for the armpits which is helpful too. It's a fabulous jacket in the cold season in the scottish mountains. ...BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy). i.e. you cant compress it to fit into a pack very easily, and you get far too hot when wearing it. AND they dont make a bright yellow/pale orange varient nor anything with reflectors on for night time use. - So... any recommendations? Ship Shiperton Henethe P.S. There are some very expensive (GBP 250-350 ) Gore jackets which I havent been able to find in any shop (in Central London) e.g. Evans Waterloo didnt have them... But on their website at least they didnt seem to have them in BRIGHT colours (just dark blues and blacks...) e.g. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" £349.99 e.g. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" £259.99 ...   Date: 25 Oct 2006 03:47:14 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Don > Possibly real science as touched on here > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception Which bit in particular? > > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW > > it's red either. > > I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED > > light and I shuffled > > them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the > > corner > > of the eye. > > > > Nothing beats a bit of 1st hand empirical experiment! > > I look forward to seeing your full report. I am particularly interested in: > > 1. sample size One > 2. use of randomising to select the colour to appear Like I say I have two identically shaped LED bike lights which I shuffle well with my eyes closed. I put one on top of the other place in just out of sided and turn them both on. I then bring into peripheral vision and the question I ask myself is this: is the red on top of the white or the other way round. And I wcan SEE the answer with 100% certainty. And I was right 10 times out of 10. Case closed. > 3. was the coloured light introduced from the front of vision of from > the rear? No (see above) > 4. what controls were in place to ensure the subjects head was immobilised None But I am intelligent enough to know when I've moved my head more than 1 mm > 5. what controls were in place to ensure the subject did not move their eyes Will-power > 6. effect of environment None > 7. control group data None. > It would help if you could get a few people with a scientific background > to do a peer review. Probably. Yes, yes, yes scientifically these questions are valid. But sometimes the evidence is so BLINDINGLY obvious that you just have to try it out for yourself - irrespective of what dogma you have read in however many textbooks. Still dont believe me? Still refuse to try the experiment for yourself. Sorry to upset your cosy little world-order view of the world but you are starting to enter the realms of philosophical doubt! Look, although I have no idea whether anyone else is wired up like me I'll bet you GBP 1000.00 that I can see red out of the corner of both my eyes. I know it as certainly as I know that I exist. Ship     Date: 25 Oct 2006 21:38:54 From: Don Whybrow Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > > Don > >>Possibly real science as touched on here >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception > > Which bit in particular? Try the sections headed Unconscious inference, Gestalt theory & Ecological psychology for a start and then follow up on some of the references >>>Nothing beats a bit of 1st hand empirical experiment! >> >>I look forward to seeing your full report. I am particularly interested in: >> >>1. sample size > > One > > >>2. use of randomising to select the colour to appear > > Like I say I have two identically shaped LED bike lights which > I shuffle well with my eyes closed. I put one on top of the other > place in just out of sided and turn them both on. > I then bring into peripheral vision and the question I ask myself > is this: is the red on top of the white or the other way round. > And I wcan SEE the answer with 100% certainty. > And I was right 10 times out of 10. > Case closed. > > >>3. was the coloured light introduced from the front of vision of from >>the rear? > > No (see above) > > >>4. what controls were in place to ensure the subjects head was immobilised > > None > But I am intelligent enough to know when I've moved my head more than > 1 mm > > >>5. what controls were in place to ensure the subject did not move their eyes > > Will-power > > >>6. effect of environment > > None > > >>7. control group data > > None. > > >>It would help if you could get a few people with a scientific background >>to do a peer review. > > > Probably. > > Yes, yes, yes scientifically these questions are valid. > > But sometimes the evidence is so BLINDINGLY obvious that you > just have to try it out for yourself - irrespective of what dogma you > have read in however many textbooks. > > Still dont believe me? > Still refuse to try the experiment for yourself. How do you know that I havn't been subjected to these tests in a controlled environment where some of these things were taken into account. > > Sorry to upset your cosy little world-order view of the world > but you are starting to enter the realms of philosophical doubt! > > Look, although I have no idea whether anyone else is wired up like me > I'll bet you GBP 1000.00 that I can see red out of the corner > of both my eyes. > > I know it as certainly as I know that I exist. At least you have managed to prove to yourself that you are unique. -- Don Whybrow Sequi Bonum Non Time Question _your own_ authority.   Date: 22 Oct 2006 07:05:31 From: Rabjohns Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote: > In article <4phojrFj42ogU1@individual.net>, > Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote: > > > ship wrote: > > > > > But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting. e.g. > > > under-arm vents. > > > > That's not sophisticated though. Hot air rises, and under arm vents > > are pointing in the wrong direction. Of course, if they point the > > right way the rain gets in... > > Because the cyclist is moving, the fact that the underarm vents point > down is not misses the point because convection is not the mechanism of > air movement. The cyclist creates an effective breeze which can be used > to move air and ventilate the jacket. There are several possible > venting locations, with intake vents at the sleeve cuffs, underarm vents > and possibly the neck. Exhaust vents can be across the shoulder blades > and the bottom hem. Double ended front zips are also helpful. IME > underarm vents only are inadequate; there has to be air inflow up the > arms, in under the armpitss and out the back of the jacket. > > As I mentioned earlier, my Showers Pass jacket makes better use of > ventilation than any other jacket I have worn. My clothing remains > quite dry. I bought mine after very positive reports from friends who > had Showers Pass jackets on a 200 km brevet in pouring rain; whereas I > was a soaked inside my jacket from sweat as if I had just ridden in the > rain, they were practically dry and very comfortable. I've not had > occasion to wear it for 8+ hours on a ride in the rain, but for an hour > or two I have been pleased to find myself quite dry. My Showers Pass E-Vent jacket is outstanding   Date: 20 Oct 2006 22:30:42 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161283488.921077.20780@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > writes: > > Tim McNaa wrote: >> In article <1161249061.831149.97020@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, >> "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 to 24 >> > days per year. >> >> Have you considered a rain cape? Excellent protection from the rain >> (keeps your legs fry and all, and if you have fenders and a mud flap >> you'll be snug as houses), better ventilation than possible with a >> jacket. The downside is wind resistance, but at commuting speeds that's >> a minimal issue unless you live somewhere prone to being very windy. > > Hmm... Downsides of cape: > - Takes up too much space in my luggage - I REALLY dont have much space > in my panier/rucksack Mine, when rolled up tightly doesn't take up much more space than a typical cycling windshell jacket. > - I am concerned that I might get blown around by passing lorries. At infra-urban commuting speeds that just doesn't happen. > - A hassle setting it up. Mine has an interior string/belt thing that keeps it from blowing up over my face. It also has a couple of elastic loops that can either go over my thumbs, or on the brake levers (I opt for the brake levers.) The only other consideration is to make sure the back of the cape is properly draped behind the saddle, and I'm not sitting on it. No hassle. The hassle is in trying to fumble around, finding your keys etc in your trousers pockets while wearing a cape. And the cape tends to fall right into whatever you're trying to do in front of you, like locking your bike to a parking rack, or trying to un-do chain suck. > - massive wind resistance (presumably) Simply -- no. Sure, there's some wind resistance, but on a wet & windy day or night, you'd be stuck with wind resistance no matter what you do. > ...All in all yes probably a still good idea if regular heavy rain > predicted I guess. I live in a fairly pluvial climate, and my rain cape (plus some other accoutrements) allows me to not only ride in wet weather, but to actually arrive to my destinations in bone-dry street clothes. I'm drier than if I walk or take public transit. The biggest hassle with rain capes is the inability to do hand signals. The second biggest hassle is putting it back on when it's still wet (ugh). I recommend having two or more rain capes. -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 20 Oct 2006 21:48:14 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4539198d$0$34572$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org writes: > I have many old pictures of racers of the past, who are not grimacing, > wearing Ray Charles glasses nor wearing clothing with all the seams on > the outside. I watched the GdI in 1961 with Rik van Looy, Charley > Gaul, Imerio Massignan, et al, and Arnaldo Pambianco the overall > winner as they climbed the Stelvio before the days of mugging for the > press and doters who want to see their heroes wince. I don't believe > it's natural to make movie star faces jut-jawed gasping for air when > riding. Speaking of early '60s racing, weird Fate has been thrusting references to the book: "Put Me Back On My Bike (In Search of Tom Simpson), by William Fotheringham" at me. I guess Fate wants me to read it. I don't know why; I'm not even all that interested in competitive cycling (or amphetamines for that matter.) I imagine his face bore all kinds of visages on the day of his death. Maybe Fate just wants me to mention it so Ryan might read it and glean something from it. Anyway, I remember when tennis players didn't all have to make loud grunting noises until a certain one started doing it. Now, a tennis match sounds like a passing herd of wildebeest. cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca     Date: 21 Oct 2006 01:14:50 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <eq8che.ut61.ln@vcn.bc.ca >, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote: > Anyway, I remember when tennis players didn't all have to make loud > grunting noises until a certain one started doing it. Now, a tennis > match sounds like a passing herd of wildebeest. ROTFL!   Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:59:42 From: Rob Perkins Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) i commuted for years in Germany in similar weather. if you ride hard you will sweat. i now commute in North Carolina. Use layers. 35-40 F & damp Outer: Gore Windstopper- i prefer the tight fitting model from Gore Base: Polypro net under heavy polypro 40-50 F & damp Outer: Gore Windstopper Base: Polypro net- see the one from Loeffler 50-65 F Outer: Vest with mesh back Base: LS jersey w/Polypro net underneath. And don't just use the jacket- the thing is to stay warm everywhere so your blood doesn't get cool in your extremities as much. - Get a helmet cover. Carradice has a nice dayglo one. Lessens wind on the head. - Get a helmet visor for rain - Get a lightweight polypro balaclava- most awesome to have warm ears. - Get flip top mitten gloves. Fingerless gloves with a mitten section that can flip down over the fingers - Get windproof front-breathable back cyclng pants such as the MEC ones (www.mec.ca)for sub-55F - Arm and leg warmers are small and really add comfort. - Nylon shoe overcovers- not neoprene. Get a fan for the office to dry off any sweat. Get baby wipes for armpits. Your body has been covered so there shouldn't be road grime. Rob ship wrote: > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? > > Budget: upto GBP 300. > > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > satisfactory. >   Date: 20 Oct 2006 11:29:54 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > >>> I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a > >>> TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the eye > >>> take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most > >>> jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state > >>> that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as good > >>> as invisible. > > >> Sounds like a red herring. The cones are only in a small central > >> part of the vision and are relatively slow responding. > > > How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my > > eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my > > peripheral vision area! > > You are imagining that you can do that. Your peripheral vision may be > quick and receptive but it cannot distinguish colors. If you want to > test that, look straight airhead at a target and have someone hold up > white, yellow and red pieces of paper and try to identify them. > > No cheating either! See my other post. May be I have weird eyes but with my flash LED it's easy as frickin pie to distinguish the red from the white LED. Though I do concede it gets a fraction harder when they are on constantly. But still perfectly clear to me. I put it to y'all that Cones only in the middle is an urban myth. What there is NOT is Rod in the middle - i.e. the "fovia" which is why even me with my "unique" [pfff] eyes have to look slightly to one side of a star at night to see it... Ship   Date: 20 Oct 2006 11:15:17 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my > > eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my > > peripheral vision area! > > At a guess ... > > An image is not constructed in your eyes. They just collect the light. > The image construction and how you see it are done in the brain and that > adds in bits that it "knows" but are missing. In this case it adds the > red to the light. > > BICBW. Dont be rediculous! I dont know where you got that one from - hardcore science or urban myth... But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW it's red either. I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED light and I shuffled them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the corner of the eye. Nothing beats a bit of 1st hand empirical experiment! Ship     Date: 21 Oct 2006 22:53:54 From: Don Whybrow Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > I wrote: >> >>At a guess ... >> >>An image is not constructed in your eyes. They just collect the light. >>The image construction and how you see it are done in the brain and that >>adds in bits that it "knows" but are missing. In this case it adds the >>red to the light. >> >>BICBW. > > Dont be rediculous! > > I dont know where you got that one from - hardcore science or urban > myth... Possibly real science as touched on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW > it's red either. > I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED > light and I shuffled > them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the > corner > of the eye. > > Nothing beats a bit of 1st hand empirical experiment! I look forward to seeing your full report. I am particularly interested in: 1. sample size 2. use of randomising to select the colour to appear 3. was the coloured light introduced from the front of vision of from the rear? 4. what controls were in place to ensure the subjects head was immobilised 5. what controls were in place to ensure the subject did not move their eyes 6. effect of environment 7. control group data It would help if you could get a few people with a scientific background to do a peer review. -- Don Whybrow Sequi Bonum Non Time "This seems like a case where we need to shoot the messenger." (Charlie Kaufman on Cypherpunks list)     Date: 20 Oct 2006 21:04:35 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW > it's red either. > I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED > light and I shuffled > them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the > corner > of the eye. I can't detect colours right at the very edge of my vision, but can when the object is moved round a little more. At the edge I can barely make out shapes either; just a vague awareness that something is there. Where does peripheral vision stop and main vision start? ~PB       Date: 21 Oct 2006 05:22:49 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4psoeoFkesmcU1@individual.net >, "Pete Biggs" <p@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc > wrote: > ship wrote: > > > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW > > it's red either. > > I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED > > light and I shuffled > > them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the > > corner > > of the eye. > > I can't detect colours right at the very edge of my vision, but can when the > object is moved round a little more. At the edge I can barely make out > shapes either; just a vague awareness that something is there. > > Where does peripheral vision stop and main vision start? At the gin of the fovea. You might be surprised at how little we see with our eyes, and how much is interpreted and interpolated. Here is the classic paper on the frog eye, What The Frog's Eye Tells The Frogs Brain. It is a large PDF file. <http://jerome.lettvin.info/lettvin/Jerome/WhatTheFrogsEyeTellsTheFrogsBrain.pdf > The frog eye sees four things. 1) The contrast detector tells, in the smallest area of all, of the presence of a sharp boundary, moving or still, with much or little contrast. 2) The convexity detector informs us in a somewhat larger area whether or not the object has a curved boundary, if it is darker than the background and moving on it; it remembers the object when it has stopped, providing the boundary lies totally within that area and is sharp; it shows most activity if the enclosed object moves intermittently with respect to the background. The memory of the object is abolished if a shadow obscures the object for a moment. 3) The movement detector tells whether or not there is a moving boundary in a yet larger area within the field. 4) The dimming detector tells us how much dimming occurs in the largest area, weighted by distance from the center and by how fast it happens. Note that 2 is a moving insect, 3 is a predator. Human eyes transmit more than four signals. One of them is static diagonal stripes. -- Michael Press         Date: 21 Oct 2006 01:22:21 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-F55374.22225020102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > In article <4psoeoFkesmcU1@individual.net>, > "Pete Biggs" <p@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc> > wrote: > > > ship wrote: > > > > > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I > > > KNOW it's red either. I just tried the experiment again with a > > > white and a red cateye LED light and I shuffled them around and I > > > can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the corner of > > > the eye. > > > > I can't detect colours right at the very edge of my vision, but can > > when the object is moved round a little more. At the edge I can > > barely make out shapes either; just a vague awareness that > > something is there. > > > > Where does peripheral vision stop and main vision start? > > At the gin of the fovea. You might be surprised at how little we > see with our eyes, and how much is interpreted and interpolated. Ummm, the research on that is not definitive yet. Lots of what seemed to have been definitive back in the psychophysics days has been readdressed and found wanting. There were issues in experimental design that resulted in skewed data, in part due to designing the experiments based on inaccurate assumptions about how these things worked. > Human eyes transmit more than four signals. One of them is static > diagonal stripes. Human eyes are part of a perceptual system that extracts information from the environment. Even the theories about interpretation and interpolation (e.g., constructivism) have been called into question. It's not so much the world inside your head as it is with world your head is in.           Date: 21 Oct 2006 09:10:22 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote on 21/10/2006 07:22 +0100: >>> >>> Where does peripheral vision stop and main vision start? >> At the gin of the fovea. You might be surprised at how little we >> see with our eyes, and how much is interpreted and interpolated. > > Ummm, the research on that is not definitive yet. Lots of what seemed > to have been definitive back in the psychophysics days has been > readdressed and found wanting. There were issues in experimental design > that resulted in skewed data, in part due to designing the experiments > based on inaccurate assumptions about how these things worked. > Peripheral vision is anything outside the macula lutea, a 1.5mm diameter yellow coloured spot containing the fovea. Histologically it is where there are two or more layers of ganglion cells in the retina (the fovea has five). To see for yourself how limited your central vision is, take a random page of a book and concentrate on one word in the middle of the page. Now without shifting your gaze from the word, try and identify the words around it. -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci   Date: 20 Oct 2006 11:08:21 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > (Plus it's extremely durable and completely > > puncture-proof if for example you happen to walk through a gorse bush! > > - unlike any membrane based shell such as Goretex...) > > It isn't puncture proof, but the waterproofing will not be > compromosed by small holes. Not /quite/ the same thing. I'm not quite sure the point you are making. You can stick certainly pins through it and it wont affect the water proofing. This is not true of any "membrane" material Ship     Date: 21 Oct 2006 15:35:05 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: >>> (Plus it's extremely durable and completely >>> puncture-proof if for example you happen to walk through a gorse bush! >>> - unlike any membrane based shell such as Goretex...) >> It isn't puncture proof, but the waterproofing will not be >> compromosed by small holes. Not /quite/ the same thing. > > I'm not quite sure the point you are making. > You can stick certainly pins through it and it wont affect the water > proofing. > This is not true of any "membrane" material "extremely durable and completely puncture-proof" suggests that you can bounce off a gravel track at considerable velocity and cause no appreciable damage. This is not necessarily the case! It /is/ the case that after such an incident you can sew it up and it'll be waterproof again, which is indeed not true of goretex et-al. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 20 Oct 2006 13:08:27 From: Snortley Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) >I am looking for something that is: > >b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE >a) Bright in colour /reflective at night >c) ultra-Compact >d) nearly(+) waterproof >e) COOL > >Plus ideally: >f) aerodyamic/elastic?? >g) fairly durable? As far as I know, elastic and waterproof are mutually exclusive, unless you want to bike in neoprene. Hmmm, maybe. If you then had any tire problems, you could cut out pieces for patches and boots. J&G makes jackets for police bike divisions. Their breathable rain jacket is streamlined and looks a lot better than it does in their picture. It has tons of vents, which is important, since breathable doesn't keep you from sweating or overheating, it just keeps the inside surface from getting slick. J&G: http://www.bicycleclothing.com/Waterproof-Breathable-Rain-Jackets.html I personally don't care for a racing cut in a waterproof covering, as I find it's good to have some air circulation. A bit of wind flapping is tolerable; it's a commute, not the Tour de France. It's also nice to be able to get off the bike and walk around without looking like a member of a UFO flight crew. For such reasons my preference is the Burley Rock Point. Burley: http://www.burley.com/products/raingear/default.html In colder weather, a blaze orange water and wind resistant fleece hunting jacket does the trick. Mine came from Cabela's, but they sadly no longer make any like it. You got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there. - Yogi Berra     Date: 20 Oct 2006 14:49:15 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Snortley wrote: > As far as I know, elastic and waterproof are mutually > exclusive Not so, there are quite a few laminate and coated waterproofs that are elastic, though we're not talking lycra-type stretchiness here. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 19 Oct 2006 17:58:36 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) me@privacy.net wrote: > "Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote: > > > I commute in a Burley rain jacket with pit zips and a > >back vent, which stays reasonably dry inside even when I go home > >through the hills. > > Burley went out of business. Yes? Not yet. They restructured, and it looks like they are dumping their non-essential product lines, like anything other than trailers, IIRC. They have a huge debt, and if they cannot turn around fast, I think they are gone. More importantly, their current rain jackets are poorly cut and tailored compared to other jackets in the same price range, IMO. I am probably going to replace my current jacket with a Showers Pass. -- Jay Beattie.     Date: 19 Oct 2006 20:43:50 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jbeattie@lindsayhart.com wrote: >> Burley went out of business. Yes? > >Not yet. They restructured, and it looks like they are dumping their >non-essential product lines, like anything other than trailers, IIRC. >They have a huge debt, and if they cannot turn around fast, I think >they are gone. More importantly, their current rain jackets are poorly >cut and tailored compared to other jackets in the same price range, >IMO. I am probably going to replace my current jacket with a Showers Dang that's too bad They made some good stuff   Date: 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: > > >>>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour > >>>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as > >>>> you can see from the pictures at: > > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html > > >>>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > >>>> 1. It must be water proof. > > >>>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes > >>>> and nose are exposed. > > >>>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but > >>>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent > >>>> freezing hands. > > >>>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > >>>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front > >>>> partially open even in rain. > > >>>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > >>>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > >>>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > >>>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in > >>>> the wind when descending. > > >>>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from > >>>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so > >>>> the jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > >>>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > >>>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least > >>>> not with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most > >>>> jackets have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body > >>>> to hold Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > > >>> I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau > >>> Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic > >>> cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably > >>> warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to > >>> at least zero. > > >> http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 > > >> The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing posing > >> racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's too bad, > >> because there are many imitators out there emulating that > >> appearance, even looking over their shoulder to see if an imagined > >> chase group is catching up. Can't we just ride bike instead of so > >> much posturing? > > > You have a strong opinion of posing. It must be said that the > > splash page you object to is for Garneau's "Custom" line, which is > > to say, directly aimed at clubs doing bulk orders of team kit. I > > can't vouch for the tri-guy, but all the other pics I can identify > > as being one of the elite teams LG sponsors: Jittery Joe's (US Div > > III, I think), Garneau Optik (Quebec team, possibly espoir-level), > > and Boyuges Telecom (recently seen contesting the Tour de France). > > In fact, except for one training-ride shot of Jittery Joe's, I'm > > pretty sure all those pictures were taken in the heat of > > competition. > > So what are you getting at? Riders today spend much time looking right > just cruising around or racing. It's all Hollywood and they don't even > recognize it anymore. My point is that these are photos of actual racers in actual race conditions advertising a clothing line specifically aimed at cycling clubs, a great number of which (probably the majority of their orders) are racing-oriented. If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, we see this: http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 Okay, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the decidedly unnatural-for-racing postion of having one foot on the ground and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > >>> I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's > >>> colours) that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My > >>> wife thinks this is weird. > > >> Well I didn't find your team colors on that web site, but if the > >> jacket is as garish as most, I would agree with your wife. There > >> is more to life than bicycle racing and hanging it out in other > >> venues. > > > Red and white: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/53270926/ > http://escapevelocity.bc.ca/ > > > My wife is right. But honest: it's strictly a comfort thing. > > >>> Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do > >>> like this jacket, though. > > >> Well, that may well be, but I qualified my description for touring in > >> high country, be that Mt. Evans CO or the Alps. Without a hood, the > >> jacket is not good enough and from your description I cannot tell > >> whether it flaps on descents, another major failing of most jackets > >> for the reason I mentioned. > > > It fits racer-jersey tight. It does not flap, and indeed, it is highly > > conformal. I have worn it in especially cold and wet races. > > > I'm surprised at your insistence on a hood, but suggest again that it > > has a lot to do with your preference for riding without a helmet, too. > > Not that there's anything wrong with that, but my local jurisdiction > > treats adults like children, and all local races are helmets-mandatory. > > Between those two rules, I don't end up bare-headed except for daring > > forays a few blocks from my house. Which I sometimes do on my 7-speed > > BMX, but that's another story. > > The hood is needed to cover the neck and cheeks or you can get off the > bicycle and quit as many riders did when Andy Hampsten got a change of > clothes and a hooded parka on the Gavia summit for his GdI win. I > take it you have not descended in snow or you would know that the hood > is essential to stay on the bicycle. Andy doesn't remember it that way: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=1827 "I did have a pair of neoprene diving gloves that I kept on for the entire climb. Along the way my team car gave me a neck-gator and a wool hat." (the article goes on about his clothing choices) The web photos of the Gavia climb that I can find are not very clear, but they seem to show exposed ears. In fairness, Hampsten doesn't seem to have chosen his clothing options perfectly, but his team was far better prepared than any other that day, and unlike most of your alpine rides, his team got changes of clothing and hot tea to him during the ride. I did a modest experiment today which has little bearing on alpine rides, but much to say about the original poster's "rides in rainy London" request. I rode to work in my lightest jersey and my beloved Windtex jacket. Bottom half was a pair of shorts, knee warmers, middling-warm socks, and not-very-warm shoes. Weather was about 5-10C and raining lightly. I was out for only 30 minutes. Headwear was an airy helmet (Giro Boreas) and gloves were my neoprene things (just like Andy). On the first 7 minutes of my ride, my elbows were cooler than I would have liked. My body was adequately warm. Then I hit the steep hill (1.8 km of climbing peaking at a grade of around 15% for, at most, a hundred metres; about 300' of gain from bottom to top). After that, I wasn't cold. I was riding a bike with full fenders, which means that road splash was a non-issue. In retrospect, I would have matched a set of arm warmers with my jersey and probably changed to a warmer jersey for optimal comfort. My crazy-conditions gear would be a poly-fleece long-sleeve "jersey", over which I would put my magic jacket, and a plastic rain jacket over that. Neoprene gloves, cap under helmet (my cap can cover most of my ears when I pull it down) and maybe a neck-gaiter. On the bottom, probably one or two pairs of shorts, and a set of leg-warmers. I have a set of heavy-fronted fleece pants, but they become a sodden mess in the rain. I still am looking for good cold/wet shoes, but I'm moderately happy with my socks. In this gear     Date: 20 Oct 2006 17:12:19 From: dvt Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) rcousine@gmail.com wrote: > I did a modest experiment today which has little bearing on alpine > rides, but much to say about the original poster's "rides in rainy > London" request. [snip Ryan's anecdote] Here's my anecdote from this morning. 47°F, rainy. I wore a light long sleeve shirt and a translucent PVC rain jacket with mesh along the sides of the torso. I also wore jeans, leather gloves, and a light hat under my helmet. My ride took the normal 20-25 minutes; it's only 4 miles, but most of it is stop-n-go or uphill, so it takes a long time. I was too warm. I should have ditched the hat and wore shorts instead of jeans. Then I could tolerate slightly warmer temps. I usually choose to get wet from the rain if it's warmer than about 50-55°F. My rain jacket is a very common style, and it's cheap. I think this is the one I have: http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=10150&memberId=12500226 The mesh on the sides does an adequate job of ventilating the torso for a short ride. The arms, on the other hand, get sweaty almost immediately if you put this thing on over a short sleeve shirt. I never wear the jacket without a long sleeve shirt, which is part of the reason I don't like to wear it in warmer weather. I've thought about getting another jacket like this and cutting the sleeves shorter. On warmer days, I think that would allow me to keep my shirt dry and stay a bit cooler. Has anyone else tried this? -- Dave dvt at psu dot edu     Date: 20 Oct 2006 04:12:24 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ryan Cousineau writes: >>>>>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer >>>>>> tour in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and >>>>>> often does as you can see from the pictures at: http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html >>>>>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >>>>>> 1. It must be water proof. >>>>>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only >>>>>> eyes and nose are exposed. >>>>>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >>>>>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to >>>>>> prevent freezing hands. >>>>>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >>>>>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front >>>>>> partially open even in rain. >>>>>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't >>>>>> dry readily, and the same goes for condensation on the >>>>>> inside. Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on >>>>>> a bicycle. >>>>>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in >>>>>> the wind when descending. >>>>>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >>>>>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so >>>>>> the jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >>>>>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't >>>>>> tried descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at >>>>>> least not with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. >>>>>> Most jackets have no adequate neck and head covering and have a >>>>>> body to hold Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. >>>>> I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau >>>>> Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic >>>>> cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably >>>>> warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down >>>>> to at least zero. http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 >>>> The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing >>>> posing racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's >>>> too bad, because there are many imitators out there emulating >>>> that appearance, even looking over their shoulder to see if an >>>> imagined chase group is catching up. Can't we just ride bike >>>> instead of so much posturing? >>> You have a strong opinion of posing. It must be said that the >>> splash page you object to is for Garneau's "Custom" line, which is >>> to say, directly aimed at clubs doing bulk orders of team kit. I >>> can't vouch for the tri-guy, but all the other pics I can identify >>> as being one of the elite teams LG sponsors: Jittery Joe's (US Div >>> III, I think), Garneau Optik (Quebec team, possibly espoir-level), >>> and Boyuges Telecom (recently seen contesting the Tour de France). >>> In fact, except for one training-ride shot of Jittery Joe's, I'm >>> pretty sure all those pictures were taken in the heat of >>> competition. >> So what are you getting at? Riders today spend much time looking >> right just cruising around or racing. It's all Hollywood and they >> don't even recognize it anymore. > My point is that these are photos of actual racers in actual race > conditions advertising a clothing line specifically aimed at cycling > clubs, a great number of which (probably the majority of their > orders) are racing-oriented. Yes, as I say they are emulating some movie star role grimacing as they believe they should. Werther in actual combat or not, we know how to look from our role models in the movies. > If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, > we see this: http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > OK, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly > think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the > decidedly unnatural-for-racing position of having one foot on the > ground and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. I see no bicycles on that web page. Jobst Brandt       Date: 20 Oct 2006 06:54:20 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <45384ca8$0$34532$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: > > >>>>>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer > >>>>>> tour in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and > >>>>>> often does as you can see from the pictures at: > > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html > > >>>>>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > >>>>>> 1. It must be water proof. > > >>>>>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only > >>>>>> eyes and nose are exposed. > > >>>>>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but > >>>>>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to > >>>>>> prevent freezing hands. > > >>>>>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > >>>>>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front > >>>>>> partially open even in rain. > > >>>>>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't > >>>>>> dry readily, and the same goes for condensation on the > >>>>>> inside. Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on > >>>>>> a bicycle. > > >>>>>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in > >>>>>> the wind when descending. > > >>>>>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from > >>>>>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so > >>>>>> the jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > >>>>>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't > >>>>>> tried descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at > >>>>>> least not with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. > >>>>>> Most jackets have no adequate neck and head covering and have a > >>>>>> body to hold Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > > >>>>> I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau > >>>>> Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic > >>>>> cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably > >>>>> warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down > >>>>> to at least zero. > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 > > >>>> The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing > >>>> posing racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's > >>>> too bad, because there are many imitators out there emulating > >>>> that appearance, even looking over their shoulder to see if an > >>>> imagined chase group is catching up. Can't we just ride bike > >>>> instead of so much posturing? > > >>> You have a strong opinion of posing. It must be said that the > >>> splash page you object to is for Garneau's "Custom" line, which is > >>> to say, directly aimed at clubs doing bulk orders of team kit. I > >>> can't vouch for the tri-guy, but all the other pics I can identify > >>> as being one of the elite teams LG sponsors: Jittery Joe's (US Div > >>> III, I think), Garneau Optik (Quebec team, possibly espoir-level), > >>> and Boyuges Telecom (recently seen contesting the Tour de France). > >>> In fact, except for one training-ride shot of Jittery Joe's, I'm > >>> pretty sure all those pictures were taken in the heat of > >>> competition. > > >> So what are you getting at? Riders today spend much time looking > >> right just cruising around or racing. It's all Hollywood and they > >> don't even recognize it anymore. > > > My point is that these are photos of actual racers in actual race > > conditions advertising a clothing line specifically aimed at cycling > > clubs, a great number of which (probably the majority of their > > orders) are racing-oriented. > > Yes, as I say they are emulating some movie star role grimacing as > they believe they should. Werther in actual combat or not, we know > how to look from our role models in the movies. Jobst, I don't know how they did it in your day, but they all look like they're pulling about the same ridiculous race faces that, I assure you, come quite naturally to me after about five minutes in the red zone. Most of them are wearing sunglasses, which may be what makes them look more posed than you'd expect, but could you please name which of these riders seems, well, unnaturally race-facey to you? Here's some pictures from a recent B-group cyclocross race: http://descantes.com/slideshow/20060923EVCROSS/MEN%20B/ I apologize for the rotten interface. I would give you the hint that clicking on the "next" button repeatedly pretty much as fast as you can will fast-forward the slideshow about as fast as you can click. I encourage you to pause a moment on slides 46 and 47 in that show: you'll see a bunch of pretty classic race-face poses: open mouths (because you get more air that way), eyes focused on an object of interest which is not the camera (because it's a race, and you're interested in not crashing), and bodies in fluid but frenzied motion (because it's a race). I can assure you that the subject in slides 46 and 47 was not trying to put on a face. That same open-mouthed, looking-up-the-road face appears in virtually every picture of that rider I have been able to find. Look through all 90 of those photos: they look like virtually every heat-of-the-race photo I've ever seen, including ones dating back to the fixed-gear era of road racing, and at every level from Novice Women to ProTour champions. Don't believe me? Here's the Women's C race: http://descantes.com/slideshow/20060923EVCROSS/WOMEN%20C/ Note the open mouths, eyes focused off in the distance, and general sense of exertion. The only difference I see on the Louis Garneau page is that the photographer or the creative director or the web designer has selected for photos with a minimum of dopey looks on their faces. I can't particularly think that riders caught with goofy looks is emblematic of anything. Any photographer who takes a reasonable number of candid photos is going to have an awful lot of pictures where a half- Actually, here's a photo where the rider has a very distinctive look on his face: http://descantes.com/2005/HarrisRoubaix/ I don't see Garneau seeking such pictures out to advertise his apparel. It doesn't really say "nice jersey" to me. > > If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, > > we see this: > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > > > OK, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly > > think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the > > decidedly unnatural-for-racing position of having one foot on the > > ground and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > > I see no bicycles on that web page. > > Jobst Brandt Whoops. As Carl points out, there's no direct link for the Fall Cycling splash page, which one must activate separately. I am apparently cursed by bad web navigation today. By the way, I looked through your photos, and there is very little race-face in them. However, this is because the pictures mostly fall into three categories: 1) rider facing away from the camera 2) rider a small part of a wide shot designed to feature the gorgeous scenery. Indeed, in some of these shots one can play "where's the cyclist?" for a few moments. This makes for pretty pictures, but not ones likely to feature in a bicycle clothing catalog. 3) riders posed smiling beside mountain pass signs. Also fun, but you're not riding. I found one or two photos where a cyclist's face was discernible, and they do seem to be smiling. They also don't seem to be going all-out, but I wouldn't expect that, given that these are fun jaunts through the Alps rather than serious attempts to win the Men's "C" fourth prize (which, at the last race I attended, was not even enough money to cover the entry fee -- either way, I didn't place in the money). -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos         Date: 20 Oct 2006 19:34:33 From: G.T. Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote in message news:rcousine-0BC65B.23542019102006@news.telus.net... > > > Here's some pictures from a recent B-group cyclocross race: > > http://descantes.com/slideshow/20060923EVCROSS/MEN%20B/ > > I apologize for the rotten interface. No kidding. It killed my system. Great photos, shitty viewer. > I would give you the hint that > clicking on the "next" button repeatedly pretty much as fast as you can > will fast-forward the slideshow about as fast as you can click. > > I encourage you to pause a moment on slides 46 and 47 in that show: > you'll see a bunch of pretty classic race-face poses: open mouths > (because you get more air that way), eyes focused on an object of > interest which is not the camera (because it's a race, and you're > interested in not crashing), and bodies in fluid but frenzied motion > (because it's a race). > Yep, no Hollywooding there, looks like typical racers. Greg         Date: 20 Oct 2006 18:46:37 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ryan Cousineau writes: > Jobst, I don't know how they did it in your day, but they all look > like they're pulling about the same ridiculous race faces that, I > assure you, come quite naturally to me after about five minutes in > the red zone. > Most of them are wearing sunglasses, which may be what makes them look > more posed than you'd expect, but could you please name which of these > riders seems, well, unnaturally race-facey to you? > Here's some pictures from a recent B-group cyclocross race: > http://descantes.com/slideshow/20060923EVCROSS/MEN%20B/ So what happened to rwreck.bike.racing where all of this suffering and red-line activity occurs? Getting lathered with how arduous the racer's life is and how many fewer grams will win races isn't a tech subject but gets spliced in wherever it can fit... like why we should be riding recumbents and the like. I have many old pictures of racers of the past, who are not grimacing, wearing Ray Charles glasses nor wearing clothing with all the seams on the outside. I watched the GdI in 1961 with Rik van Looy, Charley Gaul, Imerio Massignan, et al, and Arnaldo Pambianco the overall winner as they climbed the Stelvio before the days of mugging for the press and doters who want to see their heroes wince. I don't believe it's natural to make movie star faces jut-jawed gasping for air when riding. The secret life of Walter Mitty lives! James Thurber recognized the syndrome long ago: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/6821/thurber.html Jobst Brandt           Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:19:37 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4539198d$0$34572$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: > > > Jobst, I don't know how they did it in your day, but they all look > > like they're pulling about the same ridiculous race faces that, I > > assure you, come quite naturally to me after about five minutes in > > the red zone. > > > Most of them are wearing sunglasses, which may be what makes them look > > more posed than you'd expect, but could you please name which of these > > riders seems, well, unnaturally race-facey to you? > > > Here's some pictures from a recent B-group cyclocross race: > > > http://descantes.com/slideshow/20060923EVCROSS/MEN%20B/ > > So what happened to rwreck.bike.racing where all of this suffering and > red-line activity occurs? Getting lathered with how arduous the > racer's life is and how many fewer grams will win races isn't a tech > subject but gets spliced in wherever it can fit... like why we should > be riding recumbents and the like. Oh, it's still there. Actually, the recumbent stuff is mostly gone, replaced by drug stuff. Also, I recommend you plug "Millar Line" into Google Groups. Hilarity! If your real question is why I'm pressing this point in rbt (and ukrc, and rbm), it's because after I linked to the Garneau site as a reference to my endorsement of a cycling jacket (see ostensible thread subject), you picked on the website photos. As to why I'm still here, I admit that if I had a more rational approach to either this discussion or my personal priorities, I wouldn't be here. Alas for both of us, I am what I am. > I have many old pictures of racers of the past, who are not grimacing, > wearing Ray Charles glasses nor wearing clothing with all the seams on > the outside. I watched the GdI in 1961 with Rik van Looy, Charley > Gaul, Imerio Massignan, et al, and Arnaldo Pambianco the overall > winner as they climbed the Stelvio before the days of mugging for the > press and doters who want to see their heroes wince. I don't believe > it's natural to make movie star faces jut-jawed gasping for air when > riding. Seriously Jobst. You clipped the part where I linked to a gallery of Novice women cyclocrossers, pointing out that they also had visages similar to those of our Garneau supermodels. Are you seriously suggesting that these women, ranging from teens to mothers-of-teens and far outside the core of bike racerhood in several dimensions, have been afflicted by some odd fashion victimhood that makes their face go funny? Was oxygen debt impossible in the beknighted, amphetamine-fuelled pre-EPO days of Rik and Charly? Besides, it occurs to me that the most famous recent bike racer on the planet, a certain Lance Armstrong, famously races with a _deliberately_ relaxed face! Indeed, Armstrong has notoriously only shown strain on his face a few times in his career: when he was in very bad physical distress (bonking, losing time, dehydrating, or some combination thereof), or on one occasion when he was _bluffing_. The rest of the time he tries to look as sanguine on his bike as possible, and sets the example for all of us. Seriously, I've tried: I always end up with a Dead Elvis Grin (google phrase for context as necessary). I assume that by 1977, Eddy Merckx had started the dread trend towards grimacing during rides, as seen here: http://focus.msn.de/sport/radsport/es-war-einmal-_aid_14975.html?interfac e=galerie Again, Eddy Merckx, and anyone can see that his face is gratuitously contorted: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/low/other_sports/cycling/4630735.stm And, wait a minute! Charly Gaul! You have betrayed your hero Jobst! http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=8707 Why Charly, why? Only a lack of sunglasses save you from complete poseur-dom. > The secret life of Walter Mitty lives! James Thurber recognized the > syndrome long ago: > > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/6821/thurber.html Except that Walter Mitty fantasized he was living those existences. The people in the Garneau photos and the other photos I posted really are bike racers, and really are racing bikes. I'm pretty sure they're not thinking of shopping trips with their wives as they ride through the photographer's frame. That said, oxygen debt is a funny thing, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos       Date: 19 Oct 2006 23:21:33 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:24 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: [Ryan Cousineau wrote] >> If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, >> we see this: > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > >> OK, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly >> think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the >> decidedly unnatural-for-racing position of having one foot on the >> ground and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > >I see no bicycles on that web page. > >Jobst Brandt Dear Jobst, Ya gotta follow Ryan's directions for this link: http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 "Switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line." That means click on "fall cycling" on the left-hand menu. Cheers, Carl Fogel         Date: 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <v1ngj2h8akmnkuk5mp6ls9r2jfpiini8ku@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:24 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > [Ryan Cousineau wrote] > > >> If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, > >> we see this: > > > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > > > >> OK, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly > >> think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the > >> decidedly unnatural-for-racing position of having one foot on the > >> ground and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > > > >I see no bicycles on that web page. > > > >Jobst Brandt > > Dear Jobst, > > Ya gotta follow Ryan's directions for this link: > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > > "Switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line." > > That means click on "fall cycling" on the left-hand menu. Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far less appeal to elitism. -- Michael Press           Date: 20 Oct 2006 20:20:39 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far >less appeal to elitism. You've got to be kidding me. Garneau stuff comes out of bike racing -- local, regional and top-level racing. People at all levels of that sport wear the stuff. If you think racing is elitist, then I guess it's elitest, but you'll see local clubs and juniors in the stuff. And the same in ski racing. I'm not familiar with the origins of Patogonia product but I see a lot more of it walking down the street in my big city. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************             Date: 21 Oct 2006 05:30:40 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <9rpij25v8sif15iuhnlb755qq8vknugkkt@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? > >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. > >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid > >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far > >less appeal to elitism. > > You've got to be kidding me. I am serious. Regardless of the fitness of their products, their clients, and their clients' avowed reasons for choosing LG, LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism. > Garneau stuff comes out of bike racing > -- local, regional and top-level racing. People at all levels of that > sport wear the stuff. If you think racing is elitist, then I guess > it's elitest, but you'll see local clubs and juniors in the stuff. > And the same in ski racing. > > I'm not familiar with the origins of Patogonia product but I see a lot > more of it walking down the street in my big city. I am to infer what from this? Help me out. -- Michael Press               Date: 21 Oct 2006 07:13:46 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:30:40 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: >In article ><9rpij25v8sif15iuhnlb755qq8vknugkkt@4ax.com>, > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> > wrote: > >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: >> >> >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? >> >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. >> >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid >> >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far >> >less appeal to elitism. >> >> You've got to be kidding me. > >I am serious. Regardless of the fitness of their >products, their clients, and their clients' avowed >reasons for choosing LG, LG's web site is designed to >appeal to elitism. What do you mean by elitism? That the product is designed for a specific use? Is that elitism? > >> Garneau stuff comes out of bike racing >> -- local, regional and top-level racing. People at all levels of that >> sport wear the stuff. If you think racing is elitist, then I guess >> it's elitest, but you'll see local clubs and juniors in the stuff. >> And the same in ski racing. >> >> I'm not familiar with the origins of Patogonia product but I see a lot >> more of it walking down the street in my big city. > >I am to infer what from this? Help me out. People buy the clothes, which are supposed to look outdoorsy (camping, hiking, skiing, etc in rural/remote/wild places) and use them for walking a few minutes from door to door or door to car. Buying the look of doing something, as opposed to doing it. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************                 Date: 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <e30kj2hnu6ju7oh1krlvpmc7tng5ljt0ck@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:30:40 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > >In article > ><9rpij25v8sif15iuhnlb755qq8vknugkkt@4ax.com>, > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> > > wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > >> > >> >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? > >> >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. > >> >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid > >> >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far > >> >less appeal to elitism. > >> > >> You've got to be kidding me. > > > >I am serious. Regardless of the fitness of their > >products, their clients, and their clients' avowed > >reasons for choosing LG, LG's web site is designed to > >appeal to elitism. > > What do you mean by elitism? Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another. > That the product is designed for a > specific use? Is that elitism? Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > >> Garneau stuff comes out of bike racing > >> -- local, regional and top-level racing. People at all levels of that > >> sport wear the stuff. If you think racing is elitist, then I guess > >> it's elitest, but you'll see local clubs and juniors in the stuff. > >> And the same in ski racing. > >> > >> I'm not familiar with the origins of Patogonia product but I see a lot > >> more of it walking down the street in my big city. > > > >I am to infer what from this? Help me out. > > People buy the clothes, which are supposed to look outdoorsy (camping, > hiking, skiing, etc in rural/remote/wild places) and use them for > walking a few minutes from door to door or door to car. Buying the > look of doing something, as opposed to doing it. OK. Not the subject I am addressing. -- Michael Press                   Date: 22 Oct 2006 16:59:41 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-C1EF18.13561322102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another. That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the reality that some people *are* better than others. Some people have talents beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was a better guitarist than I will ever be. Some people are among the elite. The problem is not that some people are better than others, but what is made of that difference. Elitism is better described as "the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society" and "the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite."                     Date: 23 Oct 2006 05:08:53 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <timmcn-339FD5.16594122102006@news.iphouse.com >, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <jack-C1EF18.13561322102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>, > Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > > Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another. > > That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the reality > that some people *are* better than others. Some people have talents > beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was a better guitarist > than I will ever be. Some people are among the elite. > > The problem is not that some people are better than others, but what is > made of that difference. Elitism is better described as "the advocacy > or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society" > and "the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves > as belonging to an elite." I stand by my simplistic definition. I intentionally spoke of _feeling_ that one is a better person than someone else, and acting on that feeling. And why do you want to get into the fine details of determining who is better at some particular activity? It is the slippery slope. -- Michael Press                       Date: 23 Oct 2006 09:30:40 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-CD9E97.22085422102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > In article <timmcn-339FD5.16594122102006@news.iphouse.com>, > Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > In article > > <jack-C1EF18.13561322102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>, > > Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > > > > Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another. > > > > That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the > > reality that some people *are* better than others. Some people > > have talents beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was > > a better guitarist than I will ever be. Some people are among the > > elite. > > > > The problem is not that some people are better than others, but > > what is made of that difference. Elitism is better described as > > "the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a > > system or society" and "the attitude or behavior of a person or > > group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite." > > I stand by my simplistic definition. I intentionally spoke of > _feeling_ that one is a better person than someone else, and acting > on that feeling. 'Sup to you. > And why do you want to get into the fine details of determining who > is better at some particular activity? It is the slippery slope. Life is a slippery slope.                   Date: 22 Oct 2006 17:28:02 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that >question. "LG's web site is designed to >appeal to elitism." So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the people they appeal too? -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************                     Date: 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that > >question. "LG's web site is designed to > >appeal to elitism." > > So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use > of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the > people they appeal too? The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site appeals to in me. The feelings of being special and part of the inner circle. The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense riders. I think they should fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal is made by Rivendell Bicycles. -- Michael Press                       Date: 23 Oct 2006 06:27:57 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: >In article ><ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com>, > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> > wrote: > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: >> >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that >> >question. "LG's web site is designed to >> >appeal to elitism." >> >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use >> of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the >> people they appeal too? > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the >site appeals to in me. The feelings of being special >and part of the inner circle. The smooth slide show, >the pictures of the intense riders. I think they should >fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal >is made by Rivendell Bicycles. LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship. When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking people for a ride. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************                         Date: 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <e56pj29cag97mh91eo153nq3c263efjp7b@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > >In article <ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com>, > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's > >> >web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > >> > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as > >> use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and > >> the people they appeal too? > > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site appeals to > >in me. The feelings of being special and part of the inner circle. > >The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense riders. I think > >they should fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal > >is made by Rivendell Bicycles. You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference between "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all be riding PX-10s? > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from > them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived bit of > "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of > rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship. I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that their Web site is horribly out of date). > When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking > people for a ride. What's wrong with a lugged stem? It's a nice looking piece of bike stuff. It's not exactly an essential thing, other stems look fine and work fine (I use Nitto Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's even a lugged threadless stem.                           Date: 24 Oct 2006 00:01:12 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <timmcn-091027.09262123102006@news.iphouse.com >, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <e56pj29cag97mh91eo153nq3c263efjp7b@4ax.com>, > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > > > >In article <ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com>, > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's > > >> >web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > > >> > > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as > > >> use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and > > >> the people they appeal too? > > > > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site appeals to > > >in me. The feelings of being special and part of the inner circle. > > >The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense riders. I think > > >they should fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal > > >is made by Rivendell Bicycles. > > You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference between > "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all be riding > PX-10s? To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say they attempt to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good equipment does not prove elitism. > > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from > > them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived bit of > > "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of > > rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship. > > I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related > values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or > similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for > example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all > have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a choice is technically sound and suits the rider's style does not mean the choice is or is not supported by other feelings. I am intentionally not talking about any real or hypothetical riders choices and reasons, but about advertising styles. [...] -- Michael Press                             Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:45:34 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-1EA7FF.17011323102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > In article <timmcn-091027.09262123102006@news.iphouse.com>, > Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > In article <e56pj29cag97mh91eo153nq3c263efjp7b@4ax.com>, > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >In article <ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com>, > > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. > > > >> >"LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > > > >> > > > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such > > > >> as use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the > > > >> images and the people they appeal too? > > > > > > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site > > > >appeals to in me. The feelings of being special and part of the > > > >inner circle. The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense > > > >riders. I think they should fix it, make it more like a > > > >catalogue. A similar appeal is made by Rivendell Bicycles. > > > > You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference > > between "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all > > be riding PX-10s? > > To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say they attempt > to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good equipment does not prove > elitism. > > > > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff > > > from them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived > > > bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain > > > type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate > > > craftsmanship. > > > > I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related > > values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their > > products or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting > > bike, for example, and all my bikes currently have down tube > > shifting. They all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. > > Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a choice is > technically sound and suits the rider's style does not mean the > choice is or is not supported by other feelings. I am intentionally > not talking about any real or hypothetical riders choices and > reasons, but about advertising styles. And making a subjective judgment that you appear to think is objective.                               Date: 25 Oct 2006 04:25:56 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <timmcn-7CBF77.21453423102006@news.iphouse.com >, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <jack-1EA7FF.17011323102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>, > Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > > In article <timmcn-091027.09262123102006@news.iphouse.com>, > > Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <e56pj29cag97mh91eo153nq3c263efjp7b@4ax.com>, > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >In article <ihonj21r4s8tekn4lf9c6rg9lfo4h7m7p4@4ax.com>, > > > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. > > > > >> >"LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > > > > >> > > > > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such > > > > >> as use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the > > > > >> images and the people they appeal too? > > > > > > > > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site > > > > >appeals to in me. The feelings of being special and part of the > > > > >inner circle. The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense > > > > >riders. I think they should fix it, make it more like a > > > > >catalogue. A similar appeal is made by Rivendell Bicycles. > > > > > > You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference > > > between "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all > > > be riding PX-10s? > > > > To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say they attempt > > to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good equipment does not prove > > elitism. > > > > > > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff > > > > from them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived > > > > bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain > > > > type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate > > > > craftsmanship. > > > > > > I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related > > > values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their > > > products or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting > > > bike, for example, and all my bikes currently have down tube > > > shifting. They all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. > > > > Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a choice is > > technically sound and suits the rider's style does not mean the > > choice is or is not supported by other feelings. I am intentionally > > not talking about any real or hypothetical riders choices and > > reasons, but about advertising styles. > > And making a subjective judgment that you appear to think is objective. You speak of my judgments on advertising campaigns? These campaigns are designed to elicit feelings. What I feel is subjective. When I note the feeling, that is objective. When the campaign successfully elicits the same feelings in a multitude of people, is that not objective? -- Michael Press                                 Date: 25 Oct 2006 18:23:23 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Michael Press writes: >> And making a subjective judgment that you appear to think is >> objective. > You speak of my judgments on advertising campaigns? These campaigns > are designed to elicit feelings. What I feel is subjective. When I > note the feeling, that is objective. When the campaign successfully > elicits the same feelings in a multitude of people, is that not > objective? I hear ads that directly address the appeal of elitism on a local classical music station (KDFC 102.1 in SF) which say that if you buy this car with dual chrome exhaust pipes (or other product) it will turn heads and get admiration. Although I like their music, their ads have the most insulting tone, appealing to basest instincts. The same is true in bicycle shops, although less blatant, with allusions to world fame with racing equipment. In one a large local bicycle shop, large wall posters with pictures of touring in grand landscapes have been replaced by grimacing racers looking deadly serious as they suffer for fame. It seems to sell to today's bicyclists, not a good sign for bicycling. Jobst Brandt                                   Date: 25 Oct 2006 14:34:27 From: dvt Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > In one a large local bicycle shop, large wall posters with pictures of > touring in grand landscapes have been replaced by grimacing racers > looking deadly serious as they suffer for fame. It seems to sell to > today's bicyclists, not a good sign for bicycling. Why is that "not a good sign for bicycling?" -- Dave dvt at psu dot edu                                     Date: 25 Oct 2006 20:00:31 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Dave who? writes: >> In one a large local bicycle shop, large wall posters with pictures of >> touring in grand landscapes have been replaced by grimacing racers >> looking deadly serious as they suffer for fame. It seems to sell to >> today's bicyclists, not a good sign for bicycling. > Why is that "not a good sign for bicycling?" It generates unreal expectations that ultimately disappoint potential riders and it fosters the elitism in people who essentially need a larger (more expensive) SUV than their neighbor to "turn heads". Jobst Brandt                                       Date: 26 Oct 2006 08:28:35 From: Pat Lamb Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Dave who? writes: > >>> In one a large local bicycle shop, large wall posters with pictures of >>> touring in grand landscapes have been replaced by grimacing racers >>> looking deadly serious as they suffer for fame. It seems to sell to >>> today's bicyclists, not a good sign for bicycling. > >> Why is that "not a good sign for bicycling?" > > It generates unreal expectations that ultimately disappoint potential > riders and it fosters the elitism in people who essentially need a > larger (more expensive) SUV than their neighbor to "turn heads". I certainly would have been disappointed if I expected a painful, grimace-generating ride in to work this morning. Must have been the Brooks saddle. :) Pat                                         Date: 26 Oct 2006 09:11:24 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4qbrg3Fm8gueU1@individual.net >, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net > wrote: > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > Dave who? writes: > > > >>> In one a large local bicycle shop, large wall posters with > >>> pictures of touring in grand landscapes have been replaced by > >>> grimacing racers looking deadly serious as they suffer for fame. > >>> It seems to sell to today's bicyclists, not a good sign for > >>> bicycling. > > > >> Why is that "not a good sign for bicycling?" > > > > It generates unreal expectations that ultimately disappoint > > potential riders and it fosters the elitism in people who > > essentially need a larger (more expensive) SUV than their neighbor > > to "turn heads". > > I certainly would have been disappointed if I expected a painful, > grimace-generating ride in to work this morning. A nice way of getting at Jobst's point, I think. The "elitist" stuff that he and Michael Press- among others- are referring to is selling bikes with keting techniques pitched to racers and wannabe racers only. The photos don't show normal people out having fun on their bikes. Do normal people want to go out on a bike ride and grimace and look like they are struggling with terrible constipation? No, they want to have a pleasant and relaxing ride and to have some fun. For bike racers there is merit in suffering. It's show you get fast and how you win races. No one wins a race without suffering for it. It's a turn off for the vast majority of the potential ket, though. Those images make it look like bicycling is on par with dinner and a show at Dante's Infernal Bar and Grill. I think what it boils down to is that bike industry keters do not trust their own product's appeal. They stick with the small slice of the public- bike enthusiasts- who spend a lot of their disposable income on the latest and greatest bike stuff. With the aid of a compliant and noncritical bicycle press, this churns the ket. But it's a much smaller ket than it could be, because the keters don't reach out to the average person. Think back a few years to the minor furor in these newsgroups over those auto-shifting bikes that were keted on late-night TV. These things probably made a lot of sense to a lot of people seeing the ads, but we heavily dissed them in the newsgroups. That's elitism. There's a lot more profit in selling a $4000 bike than a $400 bike, or in selling a $100 rain jacket than one that costs $15. Who's likely to drop that kind of cash? Bike racers and wannabe bike racers. So the keting is pitched towards that group at the expense of average people- which is also elitism.                                           Date: 26 Oct 2006 20:16:15 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <timmcn-33F79C.09112426102006@news.iphouse.com >, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > Think back a few years to the minor furor in these newsgroups over those > auto-shifting bikes that were keted on late-night TV. These things > probably made a lot of sense to a lot of people seeing the ads, but we > heavily dissed them in the newsgroups. That's elitism. Some of the criticism could have been so motivated. Some think that these bikes make it impossible for a rider to progress past the raw beginner phase, and think this is bad for bicycling. Under what circumstances would you own one? -- Michael Press                                             Date: 26 Oct 2006 17:16:16 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-4C05B7.13161526102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > In article <timmcn-33F79C.09112426102006@news.iphouse.com>, > Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > Think back a few years to the minor furor in these newsgroups over > > those auto-shifting bikes that were keted on late-night TV. > > These things probably made a lot of sense to a lot of people seeing > > the ads, but we heavily dissed them in the newsgroups. That's > > elitism. > > Some of the criticism could have been so motivated. Some think that > these bikes make it impossible for a rider to progress past the raw > beginner phase, and think this is bad for bicycling. Under what > circumstances would you own one? Interesting question. Maybe if I lost hand function (or a hand), resulting in an inability to shift gears easily, and had to find some way to adapt my bicycle for special needs. I remember way back when there was a bike tour around the world by folks with various disabilities- a couple of guys missing a leg, some guys on hand-cycles, a woman missing an arm or having a paralyzed arm, etc. I remember they were accompanied in Poland for a few days by a guy who had lost both hands and had rigged his bars with cuffs for the stumps to go in. ISTR he rode a fixed gear or maybe something with a coaster brake. He could maybe have used an auto-shifting bike. There was a pretty good TV documentary about this. ISTR also the Greg LeMond rode the first and/or last day or two with them.                                 Date: 25 Oct 2006 09:51:15 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <jack-938C6B.21255824102006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, Michael Press <jack@abc.net > wrote: > You speak of my judgments on advertising campaigns? These campaigns > are designed to elicit feelings. What I feel is subjective. When I > note the feeling, that is objective. No, that's still subjective. > When the campaign successfully elicits the same feelings in a > multitude of people, is that not objective? No, it's still subjective. Objective would be whether the ad campaigns measurably affect sales. Feelings are anecdotal. The plural of anecdote is not data. Of course, none of this is getting the OP a new jacket.                           Date: 23 Oct 2006 11:06:47 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > >> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from >> them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived bit of >> "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of >> rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship. > >I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related >values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or >similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for >example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all >have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. > >The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to >Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to >earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with >Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of >doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that >their Web site is horribly out of date). > >> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking >> people for a ride. >What's wrong with a lugged stem? Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses that are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's keted as simplicity. Or it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero" components that get derided. >It's a nice looking piece of bike >stuff. It's not exactly an essential thing, other stems look fine and >work fine (I use Nitto Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's >even a lugged threadless stem. IF lugs stems were cheap to make and cheap to buy I'd have no problem with them. But they're an answer in search of a question. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************                             Date: 23 Oct 2006 17:48:28 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <8empj2pom356l0rv0kbvfacormr56d5ju1@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNaa > <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > >> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff > >> from them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived > >> bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain > >> type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate > >> craftsmanship. > > > >I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related > >values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products > >or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for > >example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They > >all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. > > > >The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to > >Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to > >earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with > >Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 > >years of doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint > >(except that their Web site is horribly out of date). > > > >> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's > >> taking people for a ride. > > >What's wrong with a lugged stem? > > Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike > with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching > technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses > that are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's keted as simplicity. > Or it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero" > components that get derided. I think Grant would admit that the lugged stem is purely for aesthetics. It might not match your sense of aesthetics (or mine- I haven't bought one; it seems like "too much") and that's fine. But I know people who have bought them and like them. I figure they are the ones who have to look at it while they ride, and there's something nice about looking down at a bike that is aesthetically pleasing. > >It's a nice looking piece of bike stuff. It's not exactly an > >essential thing, other stems look fine and work fine (I use Nitto > >Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's even a lugged > >threadless stem. > > IF lugs stems were cheap to make and cheap to buy I'd have no problem > with them. But they're an answer in search of a question. From a technical perspective (e.g., as a means of attaching your handlebars to the steerer tube) I agree with you. The lugged stem is about aesthetics, not mechanical properties. Personally I prefer the looks of the Alex Singer fillet brazed stems.                             Date: 23 Oct 2006 08:49:06 From: G.T. Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNaa > <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > >> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: >> > >>> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from >>> them, but that whole Rivendell keting is such a contrived bit of >>> "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of >>> rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship. >> I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related >> values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or >> similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for >> example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all >> have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires. >> >> The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to >> Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to >> earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with >> Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of >> doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that >> their Web site is horribly out of date). >> >>> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking >>> people for a ride. > >> What's wrong with a lugged stem? > > Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike > with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching > technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses that > are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's keted as simplicity. Or > it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero" > components that get derided. Exactly. Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons                     Date: 22 Oct 2006 21:30:36 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) John Forrest Tomlinson writes: >> Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's >> web site is designed to appeal to elitism." > So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as > use of special plug-ins? Look it up: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/elitism > Or are you talking about the images and the people they appeal too? Neither. I agree with Michael in that the ads appeal to people who wish to project an image of someone they are not, but would like to be. But then we have experienced creeping gradualism in that respect so that today few people are aware of cargo pants, Ray Charles glasses (even after dusk), aerodynamic spoilers on all sorts of cars, dual and quadruple chromed and rumbling exhaust pipes and a slew of other features one can display in public to appear like someone they want others to believe they are. Jobst Brandt                       Date: 22 Oct 2006 18:40:24 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 22 Oct 2006 21:30:36 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: >I agree with Michael in that the ads appeal to people who wish to >project an image of someone they are not, but would like to be. Gee, considering I ride with people all the time who dress like that me and my friends must be very shallow. Who are we trying to look like? -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************             Date: 21 Oct 2006 01:23:30 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <9rpij25v8sif15iuhnlb755qq8vknugkkt@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? > >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. > >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid > >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far > >less appeal to elitism. I finally found the direct link thing: http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7§ion=JV&subse ction=013&style_no=7E30054 That takes you right to the WindTex jacket. It turns out there's a little bit of text in the corner of each product page that says "Link to this page." Required by my bike club code of conduct to represent sponsors in a positive light to the public, I shall only say that the jacket user experience is vastly better than that for the website. > You've got to be kidding me. Garneau stuff comes out of bike racing > -- local, regional and top-level racing. People at all levels of that > sport wear the stuff. If you think racing is elitist, then I guess > it's elitest, but you'll see local clubs and juniors in the stuff. > And the same in ski racing. Garneau also is the title sponsor behind the longest bike race in Canada, which is also (as a parallel event) one of the biggest group rides in Canada. > I'm not familiar with the origins of Patogonia product but I see a lot > more of it walking down the street in my big city. Cycling gear is (mercifully) not in vogue as street wear right now (a few of us remember the brief, ugly rise of bicycle shorts as leisure wear). However, in Vancouver at least, fleece, MEC-wear, and Taiga products are in widespread use. We're not an especially chic city, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos               Date: 21 Oct 2006 05:42:42 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <rcousine-D72B3F.18233020102006@news.telus.net >, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:37:14 GMT, Michael Press <jack@abc.net> wrote: > > > > >Is there a link directly to the jacket Ryan proposes? > > >When I load a page like LG's, I back out immediately. > > >The products may be adequate or good, but I avoid > > >paying for image. Patagonia wear is good stuff with far > > >less appeal to elitism. > > I finally found the direct link thing: > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7§ion=JV&subse > ction=013&style_no=7E30054 Thanks. > That takes you right to the WindTex jacket. It turns out there's a > little bit of text in the corner of each product page that says "Link to > this page." Appears to be a good jacket. > Required by my bike club code of conduct to represent sponsors in a > positive light to the public, I shall only say that the jacket user > experience is vastly better than that for the website. > > Garneau also is the title sponsor behind the longest bike race in > Canada, which is also (as a parallel event) one of the biggest group > rides in Canada. -- Michael Press               Date: 20 Oct 2006 23:30:43 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:23:30 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote: [snip] >Required by my bike club code of conduct to represent sponsors in a >positive light to the public, I shall only say that the jacket user >experience is vastly better than that for the website. [snip] Dear Ryan, Since I made fun of the web site, it's probably worth saying that I expect that the stuff that your club's sponsor sells (and their print catalogue) is indeed better than that website. It's odd how otherwise sensible companies become clueless when they hit the internet. Cheers, Carl Fogel                 Date: 21 Oct 2006 06:57:52 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <hsbjj2plvrvel73tofg9p1i3r11jdajp97@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:23:30 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> > wrote: > > [snip] > > >Required by my bike club code of conduct to represent sponsors in a > >positive light to the public, I shall only say that the jacket user > >experience is vastly better than that for the website. > > [snip] > > Dear Ryan, > > Since I made fun of the web site, it's probably worth saying that I > expect that the stuff that your club's sponsor sells (and their print > catalogue) is indeed better than that website. > > It's odd how otherwise sensible companies become clueless when they > hit the internet. Here I shall speak in generalities: web designers have a real desire to sell what they may describe as "compelling" interfaces. This same instinct lead to portalphilia a few years ago, when every web site thought the road to riches was paved by being the most customizable, info-laden start page possible. Somewhere along the line, little stuff like navigation gets so forgotten that last-minute kluges like a "link to this page" link has to be added. That's utterly self-defeating, inasmuch as Google's search spider doesn't even like that sort of shenanigan. Flash is usually a crutch for the weak, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos     Date: 19 Oct 2006 20:39:01 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0700, rcousine@gmail.com wrote: [snip] >If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, we >see this: > >http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > >Okay, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly >think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the >decidedly unnatural-for-racing postion of having one foot on the ground >and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. [snip] Dear Ryan, Also, he's stopped in the traffic lane of what looks like a highway, his rear wheel within inches of a yellow no-passing stripe. Caption: Gee, I hope that pickup doing 80 mph swerves around me! It's not quite as bad as posing in the middle of a 4-way intersection beneath a traffic light, but it does support the theory that models and fashion photographers are airheads. Love the crisp-edged shadows from the artificial lighting on a cloudy day. Cheers, Carl Fogel       Date: 20 Oct 2006 07:03:14 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4scgj2tndospvv5jig0vido3vu0roh08us@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0700, rcousine@gmail.com wrote: > > [snip] > > >If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, we > >see this: > > > >http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > > > >Okay, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly > >think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the > >decidedly unnatural-for-racing postion of having one foot on the ground > >and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > > [snip] > > Dear Ryan, > > Also, he's stopped in the traffic lane of what looks like a highway, > his rear wheel within inches of a yellow no-passing stripe. > > Caption: Gee, I hope that pickup doing 80 mph swerves around me! Heh. My proposal: Does this contrast stitching make my butt look fat? Actually, I quite like the contrast stitching. But I also own a blue bicycle with red bar tape on one side, and black bar tape on the other. > It's not quite as bad as posing in the middle of a 4-way intersection > beneath a traffic light, but it does support the theory that models > and fashion photographers are airheads. > > Love the crisp-edged shadows from the artificial lighting on a cloudy > day. That shadow came from all-natural lightning, I'm sure. Ooh! Ooh! I found that most of the products have a "link to this page" link. Here's one that I think illustrates that, plus some other important factors: http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6§ion=FC&subsecti on=043&style_no=1493294 Note that this is a cap which I think meets all of Jobst's hood-based requirements, and I also think he will approve of the look on the model's face. -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos         Date: 20 Oct 2006 12:07:40 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:03:14 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote: >In article <4scgj2tndospvv5jig0vido3vu0roh08us@4ax.com>, > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > >> On 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0700, rcousine@gmail.com wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> >If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, we >> >see this: >> > >> >http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 >> > >> >Okay, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly >> >think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the >> >decidedly unnatural-for-racing postion of having one foot on the ground >> >and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. >> >> [snip] >> >> Dear Ryan, >> >> Also, he's stopped in the traffic lane of what looks like a highway, >> his rear wheel within inches of a yellow no-passing stripe. >> >> Caption: Gee, I hope that pickup doing 80 mph swerves around me! > >Heh. My proposal: Does this contrast stitching make my butt look fat? > >Actually, I quite like the contrast stitching. But I also own a blue >bicycle with red bar tape on one side, and black bar tape on the other. > >> It's not quite as bad as posing in the middle of a 4-way intersection >> beneath a traffic light, but it does support the theory that models >> and fashion photographers are airheads. >> >> Love the crisp-edged shadows from the artificial lighting on a cloudy >> day. > >That shadow came from all-natural lightning, I'm sure. [snip] Dear Ryan, On the off-chance that you're serious, look more closely at the sharp shadows cast by the bike below the rider's waist on a cloudy day. Now look for any trace of a shadow cast by the rider. Either he's a vampire and casts no shadow, or else an artificial light is shining at about chest height, so it casts shadows at a downward angle from the bike below the rider's waist, but is unable to cast his shadow on the distant trees in the background: . ' . ' light ( - - - rider no shadow horizon ' . ' bike __________ shadow______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ bright pavement dark pavement Note also the bright pavement near the wheels, but how dark the pavement is in the other lane where the sun would be showing the rider's shadow--the artificial lighting off to the viewer's right is powerful enough to cast shadows downward that close to the light, but the artificial light fades out in a few feet, just like a car's headlight at noon. Cheers, Carl Fogel           Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:25:50 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <083ij21eqa1fd2t7139cs64rm6mi15312p@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:03:14 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> > wrote: > > >In article <4scgj2tndospvv5jig0vido3vu0roh08us@4ax.com>, > > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > > > >> On 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0700, rcousine@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> >If we switch to the splash page for the generic "Fall cycling" line, we > >> >see this: > >> > > >> >http://louisgarneau.com/eng/catalog.asp?catalogue=HH6 > >> > > >> >Okay, he's looking back, and he's riding a fancy bike, but I hardly > >> >think you can accuse the rider of racer-posing, since he is in the > >> >decidedly unnatural-for-racing postion of having one foot on the ground > >> >and looking back. Also, no team colors on his jersey. > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> Dear Ryan, > >> > >> Also, he's stopped in the traffic lane of what looks like a highway, > >> his rear wheel within inches of a yellow no-passing stripe. > >> > >> Caption: Gee, I hope that pickup doing 80 mph swerves around me! > > > >Heh. My proposal: Does this contrast stitching make my butt look fat? > > > >Actually, I quite like the contrast stitching. But I also own a blue > >bicycle with red bar tape on one side, and black bar tape on the other. > > > >> It's not quite as bad as posing in the middle of a 4-way intersection > >> beneath a traffic light, but it does support the theory that models > >> and fashion photographers are airheads. > >> > >> Love the crisp-edged shadows from the artificial lighting on a cloudy > >> day. > > > >That shadow came from all-natural lightning, I'm sure. > > [snip] > > Dear Ryan, > > On the off-chance that you're serious, look more closely at the sharp > shadows cast by the bike below the rider's waist on a cloudy day. > > Now look for any trace of a shadow cast by the rider. > > Either he's a vampire and casts no shadow, or else an artificial light > is shining at about chest height, so it casts shadows at a downward > angle from the bike below the rider's waist, but is unable to cast his > shadow on the distant trees in the background: [gratuitous diagram clipped] Carl, I hardly ever pick on you, because I understand that your schtick is "caritas" and to focus on civility rather than uncharitable misinterpretation (the official usenet mode of discourse). But the word I used to describe the light source had 9 letters. Let's roll back the rbt telestrator: "That shadow came from all-natural light_N_ing, I'm sure." Wry humor or an appeal to serendipitous weather effects as a normal part of commercial photography? Without smilies, we may never know. I believe we can achieve amicable concord by agreeing that light source was a flash :), -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos             Date: 20 Oct 2006 23:25:36 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:25:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote: [snip] >Carl, I hardly ever pick on you, because I understand that your schtick >is "caritas" and to focus on civility rather than uncharitable >misinterpretation (the official usenet mode of discourse). > >But the word I used to describe the light source had 9 letters. > >Let's roll back the rbt telestrator: > >"That shadow came from all-natural light_N_ing, I'm sure." > >Wry humor or an appeal to serendipitous weather effects as a normal part >of commercial photography? Without smilies, we may never know. > >I believe we can achieve amicable concord by agreeing that light source >was a flash :), Dear Ryan, Forgive me--one-letter subtlety is lost on coarse and clueless readers. Cheers, Carl Fogel   Date: 19 Oct 2006 16:04:16 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) dvt wrote: > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > Ryan Cousineau writes: > >> Perhaps a balaclava? > > > > Oh you comedian! > > Why is that so funny? > > -- > Dave "humor-impaired" who? > dvt at psu dot edu Theories: -Jobst half-knows about Greek food, and thought I was suggesting he wear a baklava. Mmm. Baklava. -Jobst is afraid of being mistaken for a terrorist, as they routinely travel the Alps on bicycles, wearing ski masks and waylaying tourists. The Pyrenean bicycle gangs are notoriously the worst thugs in Europe. When combined with the "This bike is a pipe bomb" sticker he has, a balaclava would just be asking for trouble. -Jobst is flirting with me. NTTAWWT, but I'm happily ried. -Jobst thinks dressing like Phil Laak is perfectly normal, but wearing a balaclava would just be weird. -In German, balaclava is a hilarious slang term for "bikini top," possibly the least appropriate garment for descending the Gavia that would be possible. -Jobst is easily amused. -"Balaclava" is engineering shorthand for a solution that will fix the problem, but at the cost of being in some way ridiculous. Example: any Rube Goldberg machine would qualify as a balaclava. It must be one of those,     Date: 20 Oct 2006 16:28:42 From: dvt Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) rcousine@gmail.com wrote: > dvt wrote: >> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: >>> Ryan Cousineau writes: >>>> Perhaps a balaclava? >>> Oh you comedian! >> Why is that so funny? > Theories: > > -Jobst half-knows about Greek food, and thought I was suggesting he > wear a baklava. Mmm. Baklava. > -Jobst is afraid of being mistaken for a terrorist, as they routinely > travel the Alps on bicycles, wearing ski masks and waylaying tourists. > The Pyrenean bicycle gangs are notoriously the worst thugs in Europe. > When combined with the "This bike is a pipe bomb" sticker he has, a > balaclava would just be asking for trouble. > -Jobst is flirting with me. NTTAWWT, but I'm happily ried. > -Jobst thinks dressing like Phil Laak is perfectly normal, but wearing > a balaclava would just be weird. > -In German, balaclava is a hilarious slang term for "bikini top," > possibly the least appropriate garment for descending the Gavia that > would be possible. > -Jobst is easily amused. > -"Balaclava" is engineering shorthand for a solution that will fix the > problem, but at the cost of being in some way ridiculous. Example: any > Rube Goldberg machine would qualify as a balaclava. > > It must be one of those, Funny stuff, Ryan. Since Jobst won't answer, I think he's unwilling to admit that it's a fashion issue. He's unwilling to admit that because, in the same post (and many others), he slams other folks for being adamant about fashion. Now *that* would be funny. -- Dave "feelin' comic today" who? dvt at psu dot edu   Date: 19 Oct 2006 11:52:00 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work shirt' > > option? > > A merino wool t-shirt, obviously. Otherwise you'll get cold in the rain. > Isnt it a bit prickly next to the skin? And are you sure that there isnt anything that wicks better without actually absorbing water than merino wool? Do you have to keep oiling it? Does it smell bad? Can you throw it into the washing machine? Will the clothes moths gobble it up? Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they may look cr*p but they would presumably: - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation Ship     Date: 21 Oct 2006 15:42:33 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: [Merino wool] > Isnt it a bit prickly next to the skin? Merino wool isn't like wool as most people are familiar with it, it's finer to the point of being almost silky. That is not to say that nobdoy will find it itchy as some people do have a mild reaction against /any/ wool. But that's chemical rather than physical. > And are you sure that there isnt anything that > wicks better without actually absorbing water > than merino wool? Merino is generally reckoned to be at least the equal of most synthetics available and it doesn't particularly soak up lots of water. > Do you have to keep oiling it? It never needs any oiling at all, you just chuck it in the machine like any other base layer. > Does it smell bad? It doesn't noticably smell at all. The general perception is that after a lot of sweating into it then it will start to be whiffy considerably /less/ than any synthetics bar possibly the silver-treated ones like X-Static. > Can you throw it into the washing machine? Yes. > Will the clothes moths gobble it up? I guess they might if you hang it in a cupboard and forget about it for a couyple of years, but when was the last time you saw a moth-eaten woolly pully? > Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they > may look cr*p but > they would presumably: > - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin > - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation > - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation Main problem is where will you find them made in other than cotton? Cotton sucks big time as a technical base layer. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/       Date: 21 Oct 2006 22:55:51 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Peter Clinch wrote: > ship wrote: >> Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they >> may look cr*p but >> they would presumably: >> - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin >> - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation >> - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation > > Main problem is where will you find them made in other than cotton? From a bike shop that sells Briko clothing. The Briko Mesh vest is like a traditional string vest except it's made of soft Coolmax polyester. ~PB         Date: 21 Oct 2006 18:35:29 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:55:51 +0100, "Pete Biggs" <p@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc > wrote: >Peter Clinch wrote: >> ship wrote: >>> Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they >>> may look cr*p but >>> they would presumably: >>> - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin >>> - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation >>> - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation >> >> Main problem is where will you find them made in other than cotton? > >From a bike shop that sells Briko clothing. The Briko Mesh vest is like a >traditional string vest except it's made of soft Coolmax polyester. Santini sells one too. And you can get long- and short-sleeved shirts of polypropylne from Super Brynje. http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10120533&category=0400 -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************     Date: 20 Oct 2006 02:02:54 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they > may look cr*p but > they would presumably: > - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin > - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation > - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation And if it's made of Coolmax any sweat will dry quickly too. Have a look at the Briko Mesh Sleeveless Vest. ~PB     Date: 19 Oct 2006 22:23:36 From: Ambrose Nankivell Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: >>> What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work >>> shirt' option? >> >> A merino wool t-shirt, obviously. Otherwise you'll get cold in the >> rain. >> > Isnt it a bit prickly next to the skin? Definitely not. > And are you sure that there isnt anything that > wicks better without actually absorbing water > than merino wool? Possibly. The wool really doesn't give up the water at all, though, so you won't feel damp even though it's pretty much saturated. I wear a merino jumper over (ordinary) shirts when cycling to places where I have to look not scruffy, and even when my hair's soaked through and my thighs are embarassingly sodden, I don't have to do anything with my jumper, and the shirt's only at the stage of feeling damp, not at the stage of being uncomfortable. When I was out for 9 hours in constant drizzle in The Highlands a couple of weeks ago, I was wearing a thin merino roll-neck top (which I've managed not to wear out in 5 years) with a merino jumper over it, and had no problems with warmth at all. That said, I've not tried what it is I think you may be asking about, which is a merino t-shirt under work clothes with a waterproof on top. > Do you have to keep oiling it? No, it needs no special treatment. > Does it smell bad? As long as all the washing powder gets rinsed away, no. ;) A more evangelical supplier of merino and other natural fibres is Howies A slightly gross quote from: http://www.howies.co.uk/content.php?xSecId=40 is: "Oh, and in tests people have worn for 90 days in a row without getting up anyone's nose." They might be helpful people to talk to about this problem. Their catalogues give the impression that they're very happy to talk about their products, and they sell a full range of cycling stuff, including waterproofs. > Can you throw it into the washing machine? It'll need a wool wash, but apart from that, it should be fine. Check before you buy, of course. > Will the clothes moths gobble it up? I assume not. Hopefully that'll help with your problems. Cheers, Ambrose     Date: 19 Oct 2006 18:27:16 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 19 Oct 2006 11:52:00 -0700, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >Isnt it a bit prickly next to the skin? >And are you sure that there isnt anything that >wicks better without actually absorbing water >than merino wool? >Do you have to keep oiling it? >Does it smell bad? >Can you throw it into the washing machine? >Will the clothes moths gobble it up? I've got some merino wool from Icebreaker and it feels great against the skin. It does feel heavier compared to synthetics when wet. Smell's not a problem. Machine wash, dry flat. Nice stuff. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************   Date: 19 Oct 2006 11:44:48 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote: > In article <1161249061.831149.97020@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > > > OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 to 24 > > days per year. > > Have you considered a rain cape? Excellent protection from the rain > (keeps your legs fry and all, and if you have fenders and a mud flap > you'll be snug as houses), better ventilation than possible with a > jacket. The downside is wind resistance, but at commuting speeds that's > a minimal issue unless you live somewhere prone to being very windy. Hmm... Downsides of cape: - Takes up too much space in my luggage - I REALLY dont have much space in my panier/rucksack - I am concerned that I might get blown around by passing lorries. - A hassle setting it up. - massive wind resistance (presumably) ...All in all yes probably a still good idea if regular heavy rain predicted I guess. But no I dont think I have ROOM for one on an every day basis. (Just much space do they take up when folded up...?) I remember back in the late 1980s cycling into work in Aberdeen (Jockland) and I swear I got soaked either going IN to work or coming OUT from work (or both) every single day for 4 weeks. Mind you apparently that November was an all time record even for them! But yes I'll keep an eye out for them next time it rains Ship     Date: 21 Oct 2006 01:31:51 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161283488.921077.20780@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: > Tim McNaa wrote: > > In article <1161249061.831149.97020@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 > > > to 24 days per year. > > > > Have you considered a rain cape? Excellent protection from the > > rain (keeps your legs fry and all, and if you have fenders and a > > mud flap you'll be snug as houses), better ventilation than > > possible with a jacket. The downside is wind resistance, but at > > commuting speeds that's a minimal issue unless you live somewhere > > prone to being very windy. > > Hmm... Downsides of cape: > - Takes up too much space in my luggage - I REALLY dont have much space > in my panier/rucksack > - I am concerned that I might get blown around by passing lorries. > - A hassle setting it up. > - massive wind resistance (presumably) A rucksack or messenger bag would be potentially difficult to accommodate with a cape. It would have to go under the cape, which might be problematic. I've never tried. For carrying it, as I note below, I strap mine to the outside of my luggage. But I do that with my rain jacket as well. There is a bit more wind resistance, although at commuting speeds it's not a problem. A stiff headwind is more difficult with a cape. I've never had any trouble with being blown around by the draft from passing vehicles, but then I am also 6'4" and 210 lbs so I just don't get blown around much anyway. It's as easy to put on a cape as it is to put on a jacket. There is an internal string to tie around your waist fo keep it from flapping, but that's no more difficult that zipping up a jacket. > ...All in all yes probably a still good idea if regular heavy rain > predicted I guess. > > But no I dont think I have ROOM for one on an every day basis. (Just > much space do they take up when folded up...?) Mine rolls down to about the same size as my rain jacket. On most of my bikes I keep my rain jacket or my cape lashed to the outside of my Carradice saddlebag, where it is very readily available. On one bike it rides in the handlebar bag, usually, or on the saddle bag if I happen to be using both.   Date: 19 Oct 2006 11:19:38 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a > > TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the > > eye take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most > > jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state > > that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as > > good as invisible. > > Sounds like a red herring. The cones are only in a small central part > of the vision and are relatively slow responding. How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my peripheral vision area! > Detection of a moving > object is done priily by the rods which are not colour differentiated > like cones. However, as I pointed out earlier with rear LED lights, the > rods are pretty insensitive to red as a whole (see the sensitivity > curves in my previous link) and given Pieron's Law that the visual > response time depends on the stimulus intensity, it is likely to take > longer to spot a red stimulus of the same intensity as a green one in > your peripheral vision. But at equal perceived brightness there is no > colour dependency of visual response times. You are probably right. It sounds like you are arguing that white sun-light has great a significantly greater degree of red light waves, even though we are adapted to perceive it as white, yes. Ah maybe the point of the article was that it would take longer to perceive it as *being red* - i.e. a bright colour rather then a merely pale-ish-grey. > It also ignores the largish percentage of males with red/green colour > blindness who have difficulty differentiating red anyway So if their greens and reds look the same, I presume that can these guys can still perceive yellow as being different? Ergo get a yellow not a red or green jacket! > > [As a trained zoologist I have to wonder bright BRIGHT > > red being the colour of (oxygenated) blood is just an evolultionary > > coincidence... !] > > > > Red is quite widely used in nature as an attractor/warning but it is a > pigmentation effect rather than blood. So it is probably evolutionary > but not blood colour based. Yes I know that... but the question is why did nature choose red? The issue at stake is which way around was cause and effect during our ancestral past? I am assuming that haemoglobin pre-dates colour vision... and that there was a survival value in clearly seeing spilt blood. Spilt blood would be a pretty important thing to be able to see, after all. Because it would mean a) food if you are a carnivore or b) serious injury going on - i.e. get the heck out of here! - if you are a herbivor. And if it's your OWN blood then... bloody hell! Whereas if blood just looked the same colour as the grass the sky and everything else I think you would be at a disadvantage to competitors that could see it. Mind you... even if haemoglobin evolved AFTER colour vision it might still work. Suppose we could all see just greens and blues, if someone threw a mutation that let them see red blood - again that could be of big survival value. I mean I wonder how many *other* colours of cone receptor have evolved - other than RBG + rods...but which were of insufficient survival value to us... - have I lost you yet? zzzz? I *believe* certain species can see ultra-violet for example... though dont ask me which! Strangely I am told that a lot of predators only see in black and white - which has always sounded rather strange to me. I can certainly distinguish rabbit and dear when the are stationary purely using colour. After all, the bottom line is that plants are green but not very many animals have evolved green pigment - particularly mammals for some reason. But now I fear I really *am* off topic Ship Ship     Date: 19 Oct 2006 22:38:36 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ship ahoy writes: >>> I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a >>> TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the eye >>> take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most >>> jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state >>> that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as good >>> as invisible. >> Sounds like a red herring. The cones are only in a small central >> part of the vision and are relatively slow responding. > How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my > eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my > peripheral vision area! You are imagining that you can do that. Your peripheral vision may be quick and receptive but it cannot distinguish colors. If you want to test that, look straight ahead at a target and have someone hold up white, yellow and red pieces of paper and try to identify them. No cheating either! Jobst Brandt     Date: 19 Oct 2006 22:34:49 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ship ahoy writes: >>> I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a >>> TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the eye >>> take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most >>> jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state >>> that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as good >>> as invisible. >> Sounds like a red herring. The cones are only in a small central >> part of the vision and are relatively slow responding. > How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my > eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my > peripheral vision area! You are imagining that you can do that. Your peripheral vision may be quick and receptive but it cannot distinguish colors. If you want to test that, look straight airhead at a target and have someone hold up white, yellow and red pieces of paper and try to identify them. No cheating either! Jobst Brandt     Date: 19 Oct 2006 21:12:12 From: Mark Thompson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > I *believe* certain species can see ultra-violet for example... > though dont ask me which! Rats can see into the ultra-violet part of the spectrum. The two links below are particularly good. http://www.ratbehavior.org/perception.htm http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatCam.htm I'm sure someone can get this back on topic.     Date: 19 Oct 2006 21:37:49 From: Don Whybrow Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > > How come I can see my red flashing bike LED in the very corner of my > eye - and yes it's very clearly red - if there are NO cones in my > peripheral vision area! At a guess ... An image is not constructed in your eyes. They just collect the light. The image construction and how you see it are done in the brain and that adds in bits that it "knows" but are missing. In this case it adds the red to the light. BICBW. -- Don Whybrow Sequi Bonum Non Time "I suppose they are vicious rascals, but it scarcely matters what they are. I'm after what they know." (Gibson-Sterling, The Difference Engine)   Date: 19 Oct 2006 10:43:30 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Clive George wrote: > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1161249863.002036.101510@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > > But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. > > > > On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. > > > > A) > > One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively > > bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, > > armpits, back...?) > > and as water-resistent *as possible* > > > > B) > > a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. > > (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) > > What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work shirt' > option? Yes well... hmm.... I'm torn... you NEARLY have a point there. The downsides are a) Hassle - finding somewhere to change, b) and then actually changing. c) an extra garmet to wash (on a regular basis presumably!) d) hassle of transporting a shirt WITHOUT it getting creased. In the winter I'm afraid I dont wear cycling shorts - just long trousers - for similar reasons. In fact I even wear ordinary shoes [shock horror!] I just want an easy/convenient life. And in my life time * energy = money! Ship     Date: 19 Oct 2006 20:09:04 From: Clive George Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1161279810.307321.16210@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work shirt' >> option? > > Yes well... hmm.... I'm torn... you NEARLY have a point there. > > The downsides are > a) Hassle - finding somewhere to change, > b) and then actually changing. I'm guessing you're of the male persuasion, in which case changing a top is really very easy. Although the look on my boss's face when I arrived at the same time as him wearing nothing but a pair of cycling shorts, shoes/socks and a lot of sweat was quite amusing :-) > c) an extra garmet to wash (on a regular basis presumably!) > d) hassle of transporting a shirt WITHOUT it getting creased. I don't worry about the latter two. An extra t-shirt is hardly much extra laundry, and the shirts tend to survive fairly well in my very limited experience. > In the winter I'm afraid I dont wear cycling shorts - just long > trousers - for similar reasons. I stopped doing that because I wore them out too quickly. I've no desire to waste nice trousers. > I just want an easy/convenient life. Easy, convenient = slow down on your bike, hence sweat less and you can get away with a more waterproof jacket. If you want to ride harder, you've got to make some different compromises. > And in my life time * energy = money! (What does that make the dimensions of money?) cheers, clive   Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:24:23 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Alan Braggins wrote: > In article <1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ship wrote: > > > >And my response is please re-read mine whole message. > >I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > >very shower proof just wont cut it! > > A car, with a roof, and a heater, and air conditioning. Because: > >It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket > >I seek simply doesnt really exist. Very funny. But terrible for the environment and in this traffic-jam ridden city of London, terrible for wasting my time. But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. A) One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, armpits, back...?) and as water-resistent *as possible* B) a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) Ship (OP)     Date: 19 Oct 2006 12:35:36 From: Clive George Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1161249863.002036.101510@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. > > On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. > > A) > One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively > bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, > armpits, back...?) > and as water-resistent *as possible* > > B) > a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. > (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work shirt' option? cheers, clive       Date: 19 Oct 2006 15:35:49 From: Ambrose Nankivell Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Clive George wrote: > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1161249863.002036.101510@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... >> But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. >> >> On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. >> >> A) >> One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively >> bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, >> armpits, back...?) >> and as water-resistent *as possible* >> >> B) >> a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. >> (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) > > What about the 'use a t-shirt to ride in rather than your work shirt' > option? A merino wool t-shirt, obviously. Otherwise you'll get cold in the rain. A   Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:24:20 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Alan Braggins wrote: > In article <1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ship wrote: > > > >And my response is please re-read mine whole message. > >I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > >very shower proof just wont cut it! > > A car, with a roof, and a heater, and air conditioning. Because: > >It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket > >I seek simply doesnt really exist. Very funny. But terrible for the environment and in this traffic-jam ridden city of London, terrible for wasting my time. But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. A) One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, armpits, back...?) and as water-resistent *as possible* B) a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) Ship (OP)   Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:24:16 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Alan Braggins wrote: > In article <1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ship wrote: > > > >And my response is please re-read mine whole message. > >I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > >very shower proof just wont cut it! > > A car, with a roof, and a heater, and air conditioning. Because: > >It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket > >I seek simply doesnt really exist. Very funny. But terrible for the environment and in this traffic-jam ridden city of London, terrible for wasting my time. But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. A) One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, armpits, back...?) and as water-resistent *as possible* B) a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. (with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) Ship     Date: 19 Oct 2006 10:52:46 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. > >A) >One everyday one that is cool, highly breathable, massively >bright at night(with built in reflectors), well vented (arms, neck, >armpits, back...?) >and as water-resistent *as possible* > >B) >a highly compact genuine "waterproof" for downpoors. >(with as many of the features in A) as I can find!) Sounds like a plan to me     Date: 19 Oct 2006 08:42:05 From: Pat Lamb Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Alan Braggins wrote: >> In article <1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ship wrote: >>> And my response is please re-read mine whole message. >>> I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not >>> very shower proof just wont cut it! >> A car, with a roof, and a heater, and air conditioning. Because: >>> It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket >>> I seek simply doesnt really exist. > > Very funny. But terrible for the environment and in this traffic-jam > ridden city > of London, terrible for wasting my time. > > But FYI, I have now revised my opinion on all this. > > On reflection I now think I'm gonna need TWO new jackets. Just out of curiosity, how many taxi rides would your 300 GBP (times two now??) pay for? Pat   Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:11:07 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > ship wrote: > > > I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > > very shower proof just wont cut it! > > On how many of your commutes does it rain at all? And how long are your > commutes? > > Getting a bit damp from light rain going through ordinary clothing isn't > /that/ bad, and getting a bit damp from sweat when wearing a waterproof > jacket in heavy rain isn't /that/ bad - in London (where it's rarely > terribly cold). > > > The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then > > I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane. > > You can still wear it even if the weather is looking sh1t. Just change into > your waterproof at a traffic light if it does come on to rain, and take it > off when it stops. How often will you need to wear a showerproof for the > whole journey, let alone a waterproof? It's just a few days per year. OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 to 24 days per year. And it's a damned nuicance - one good soaking and it REALLY puts you off commuting by bike. And I do commute ALL seasons, whatever the weather - it's about 20 to 25 minutes each way but then if I go out in the evening (i.e. more nights than not that's a total of another 20-40 minutes or so to add to the journeytimes. So that's at least an hour per day spread across the 24 hours But I'm a big believer in getting the RIGHT EQUIPMENT. And then commuting in whatever weather is no problem. Currently if it's raining *hard*, I put on my Paramo jacket which breaths extremely well, but is far too warm in the summer - in which case I either arrive sweaty (fine if on the way home - less fine if on the way to a date!) OR I simply have to slow down (which I dont like because in many situations it can be dangerous!) The other problem with my current Paramo is that it's green and not good for visibility. Which is why I'm thinking of buying another jacket for the coming after-dark commutes this winter. To be honest, the one thing I DONT want is to arrive at work or to a date for the evening covered in sweat. (My skin reacts against lying sweat with a rash, for one thing...) But my experience of all "waterproof" shells is that they rapidly become INCREDIBLY sweaty if your are working reasonably hard. So from what I gather in this thread, waterproof shell materials are always going to be a fundamental problem - yes even if you spend a LOT of money there appears to be no material you can buy that solves this. But I do like the sound of all that chat about *vents* though. Mind you some of the jackets mentioned elsewhere on this thread don't seem to mention them on their manufacturer's websites (!) - and that doesnt sound promising... :( I would also quite like to replace my thin "every day" pertex jacket with something more DESIGNED for cycling. Maybe with a lot more reflectors built in to it. Maybe a BIT more water-resistent (not hard) and maybe having at least a BIT more in the way of vents (it has none!) This would mean that I could cheerfullly cycle in *somewhat* more rainy conditions... And then when it REALLY tips down? Well I guess a compact water-resistent goretex-type of shell and just go slower and/or get sweaty on them days... Ship (OP)   Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:11:01 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > ship wrote: > > > I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > > very shower proof just wont cut it! > > On how many of your commutes does it rain at all? And how long are your > commutes? > > Getting a bit damp from light rain going through ordinary clothing isn't > /that/ bad, and getting a bit damp from sweat when wearing a waterproof > jacket in heavy rain isn't /that/ bad - in London (where it's rarely > terribly cold). > > > The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then > > I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane. > > You can still wear it even if the weather is looking sh1t. Just change into > your waterproof at a traffic light if it does come on to rain, and take it > off when it stops. How often will you need to wear a showerproof for the > whole journey, let alone a waterproof? It's just a few days per year. OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 to 24 days per year. And it's a damned nuicance - one good soaking and it REALLY puts you off commuting by bike. And I do commute ALL seasons, whatever the weather - it's about 20 to 25 minutes each way but then if I go out in the evening (i.e. more nights than not that's a total of another 20-40 minutes or so to add to the journeytimes. So that's at least an hour per day spread across the 24 hours But I'm a big believer in getting the RIGHT EQUIPMENT. And then commuting in whatever weather is no problem. Currently if it's raining *hard*, I put on my Paramo jacket which breaths extremely well, but is far too warm in the summer - in which case I either arrive sweaty (fine if on the way home - less fine if on the way to a date!) OR I simply have to slow down (which I dont like because in many situations it can be dangerous!) The other problem with my current Paramo is that it's green and not good for visibility. Which is why I'm thinking of buying another jacket for the coming after-dark commutes this winter. To be honest, the one thing I DONT want is to arrive at work or to a date for the evening covered in sweat. (My skin reacts against lying sweat with a rash, for one thing...) But my experience of all "waterproof" shells is that they rapidly become INCREDIBLY sweaty if your are working reasonably hard. So from what I gather in this thread, waterproof shell materials are always going to be a fundamental problem - yes even if you spend a LOT of money there appears to be no material you can buy that solves this. But I do like the sound of all that chat about *vents* though. Mind you some of the jackets mentioned elsewhere on this thread don't seem to mention them on their manufacturer's websites (!) - and that doesnt sound promising... :( I would also quite like to replace my thin "every day" pertex jacket with something more DESIGNED for cycling. Maybe with a lot more reflectors built in to it. Maybe a BIT more water-resistent (not hard) and maybe having at least a BIT more in the way of vents (it has none!) This would mean that I could cheerfullly cycle in *somewhat* more rainy conditions... And then when it REALLY tips down? Well I guess a compact water-resistent goretex-type of shell and just go slower and/or get sweaty on them days... Ship (OP)     Date: 19 Oct 2006 12:02:12 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >But I'm a big believer in getting the RIGHT EQUIPMENT. And then >commuting in whatever weather is no problem. I am too..agree with you But its tough right equip is a big deal with me But its hard to know what works and what doesn't. Too bad you cant rent stuff to try it out     Date: 19 Oct 2006 09:19:05 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161249061.831149.97020@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: > OP here, yes in London I would guess I get wet probably about 18 to 24 > days per year. Have you considered a rain cape? Excellent protection from the rain (keeps your legs fry and all, and if you have fenders and a mud flap you'll be snug as houses), better ventilation than possible with a jacket. The downside is wind resistance, but at commuting speeds that's a minimal issue unless you live somewhere prone to being very windy.   Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:37:09 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tony Raven wrote: > > When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination > > to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow. > > I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative > > response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if > > some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others. > > Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the > photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html Does your link does describe MOVING colours or STATIC ones? I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the eye take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as good as invisible. [As a trained zoologist I have to wonder bright BRIGHT red being the colour of (oxygenated) blood is just an evolultionary coincidence... !] Ship     Date: 20 Oct 2006 22:59:51 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161247029.072637.207570@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com > , "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: > Tony Raven wrote: > > > When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination > > > to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow. > > > I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative > > > response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if > > > some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others. > > > > Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the > > photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html > > Does your link does describe MOVING colours or STATIC ones? > > I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a > TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the > eye take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most > jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state > that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as > good as invisible. > > [As a trained zoologist I have to wonder bright BRIGHT > red being the colour of (oxygenated) blood is just an evolultionary > coincidence... !] Some fire companies around here adopted the highly visible fluorescene paint scheme. Others maintain the traditional fire engine red, depending on xenon flash lamps, warbling siren, air horn, and a skilled driver to avoid collisions with comatose motorists. Works most of the time. -- Michael Press     Date: 19 Oct 2006 14:10:32 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote on 19/10/2006 09:37 +0100: > > Does your link does describe MOVING colours or STATIC ones? I don't think it really makes much difference. > > I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a > TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the > eye take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most > jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state > that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as > good as invisible. Sounds like a red herring. The cones are only in a small central part of the vision and are relatively slow responding. Detection of a moving object is done priily by the rods which are not colour differentiated like cones. However, as I pointed out earlier with rear LED lights, the rods are pretty insensitive to red as a whole (see the sensitivity curves in my previous link) and given Pieron's Law that the visual response time depends on the stimulus intensity, it is likely to take longer to spot a red stimulus of the same intensity as a green one in your peripheral vision. But at equal perceived brightness there is no colour dependency of visual response times. It also ignores the largish percentage of males with red/green colour blindness who have difficulty differentiating red anyway > > [As a trained zoologist I have to wonder bright BRIGHT > red being the colour of (oxygenated) blood is just an evolultionary > coincidence... !] > Red is quite widely used in nature as an attractor/warning but it is a pigmentation effect rather than blood. So it is probably evolutionary but not blood colour based. -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci       Date: 19 Oct 2006 09:16:26 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4ppbqaFjs44hU1@individual.net >, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: > ship wrote on 19/10/2006 09:37 +0100: > > > > Does your link does describe MOVING colours or STATIC ones? > > I don't think it really makes much difference. I would agree with that assessment, assuming relatively even illumination and coloration. > > I read an article several years ago stating that bright red was a > > TERRIBLE colour for fire engines because the red cones in the eye > > take longest to respond - albeit that red is the colour that most > > jolts/shocks/alerts/stimulates us. The article went on to state > > that a bright red fast moving obect across our vision was as good > > as invisible. > > Sounds like a red herring. Was that a pun? ;-) > The cones are only in a small central part of the vision and are > relatively slow responding. Detection of a moving object is done > priily by the rods which are not colour differentiated like cones. > However, as I pointed out earlier with rear LED lights, the rods are > pretty insensitive to red as a whole (see the sensitivity curves in > my previous link) and given Pieron's Law that the visual response > time depends on the stimulus intensity, it is likely to take longer > to spot a red stimulus of the same intensity as a green one in your > peripheral vision. But at equal perceived brightness there is no > colour dependency of visual response times. Noting that equal perceived brightness is achieved with higher light source output for some colors than others. As an aside, some of the old psychophysics research has to be taken with a grain of salt as the highly unnatural conditions of the experiments gave distorted results. Psychophysics research conceptualized perception as a passive process on the part of the organism. See James J. Gibson's _The ecological approach to visual perception_ for example, or his earlier book _The senses considered as perceptual systems_. Also Edward Reed wrote well on this topic. The equivalent for this newsgroup might be measuring rolling resistance on a two inch diameter steel roller and then trying to extrapolate that data to riding on a road with rough pavement. > It also ignores the largish percentage of males with red/green colour > blindness who have difficulty differentiating red anyway Differentiating red from greens or browns, but seeing red objects is only an issue of the object is surrounded by other objects of confounding colors. This would be less an issue with a red rain jacket illuminated by a driver's headlights on a dark rainy night, as it would be prominent in for foreground with little competing background. A fire truck on a street in New York or London, with all the other visual information to obscure it, might be hard to see. Hence the siren and flashing lights.   Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:59:13 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) pinnah wrote: > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > >Conclusion: > > > >Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged > >lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down > >big time. > > I think you have this backwards. Professionals don't perform well > when they cold. Hamilton's story is hypothermia 101. Body core gets > cold and everything else goes to pieces. These guys are operating > with less body fat insulation so they have thinner gins than most > of us but the basics remain the same. > > I concluded 2 very different things from that story: > > 1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the > place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due > to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics. > High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among > mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to > increase the windproofness of the shell. > > 2) There is no way to stay dry in the rain under high excertion. None. > If you want to stay dry, increase the waterproofness of the shell (you > are only buying time here - all shell let water in eventually) and > *decrease* your level of output to control sweating. The most breathable AND most waterproof thing I've come across is the Paramo fabric ('Analogy' ?). Have you tried it? I am definitely a fan - certainly for cold weather hiking. It works pretty well for long arduous trecks in the Scottish Highland rain. It certainly beats the pants off any membrane shell like Goretex for breathability - making it WAY more comfortable over time (Plus it's extremely durable and completely puncture-proof if for example you happen to walk through a gorse bush! - unlike any membrane based shell such as Goretex...) BUT it's slightly heavy, and despite being nice and soft it, due to it's mass/bulk it doesnt compress particularly very well when not in use. All in all IME, due to its *warmth*, it performs superbly in pretty cold weather but with all the vents you can get it's still too hot to wear in even moderately warm weather if under any kind of exersion. However for CYCLING it's a just shame that they dont make a lightly elasticated bright yellow or pale orange version, preferrably with reflectors built in. Even then, though the basic material it would still be too warm for high exersion in anything but the coldest of weather. Ship   Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:59:08 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) pinnah wrote: > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > >Conclusion: > > > >Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged > >lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down > >big time. > > I think you have this backwards. Professionals don't perform well > when they cold. Hamilton's story is hypothermia 101. Body core gets > cold and everything else goes to pieces. These guys are operating > with less body fat insulation so they have thinner gins than most > of us but the basics remain the same. > > I concluded 2 very different things from that story: > > 1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the > place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due > to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics. > High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among > mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to > increase the windproofness of the shell. > > 2) There is no way to stay dry in the rain under high excertion. None. > If you want to stay dry, increase the waterproofness of the shell (you > are only buying time here - all shell let water in eventually) and > *decrease* your level of output to control sweating. The most breathable AND most waterproof thing I've come across is the Paramo fabric ('Analogy' ?). Have you tried it? I am definitely a fan - certainly for cold weather hiking. It works pretty well for long arduous trecks in the Scottish Highland rain. It certainly beats the pants off any membrane shell like Goretex for breathability - making it WAY more comfortable over time (Plus it's extremely durable and completely puncture-proof if for example you happen to walk through a gorse bush! - unlike any membrane based shell such as Goretex...) BUT it's slightly heavy, and despite being nice and soft it, due to it's mass/bulk it doesnt compress particularly very well when not in use. All in all IME, due to its *warmth*, it performs superbly in pretty cold weather but with all the vents you can get it's still too hot to wear in even moderately warm weather if under any kind of exersion. However for CYCLING it's a just shame that they dont make a lightly elasticated bright yellow or pale orange version, preferrably with reflectors built in. Even then, though the basic material it would still be too warm for high exersion in anything but the coldest of weather. Ship     Date: 19 Oct 2006 19:55:04 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > The most breathable AND most waterproof thing I've come across > is the Paramo fabric ('Analogy' ?). Have you tried it? Yes, owned one of the original Nevada smocks. > I am definitely a fan - certainly for cold weather hiking. > It works pretty well for long arduous > trecks in the Scottish Highland rain. It certainly beats the pants off > any membrane shell like Goretex for breathability - making it WAY > more comfortable over time Up to a point... that it lets sweat out more efficiently is undeniable, but OTOH I found I tended to /make/ rather more of the stuff in the first place so not necessarily a clear win. > (Plus it's extremely durable and completely > puncture-proof if for example you happen to walk through a gorse bush! > - unlike any membrane based shell such as Goretex...) It isn't puncture proof, but the waterproofing will not be compromosed by small holes. Not /quite/ the same thing. > However for CYCLING it's a just shame that they dont make a lightly > elasticated > bright yellow or pale orange version, preferrably with reflectors > built in. The Velez smock has reflective trim as standard (well, Roos' one certainly has it and she didn't have to look for a non-standard one). It's also available (or at least has been) in fairly loud shades of orange and lime green (not fluo, but loud). If you elasticated it then I suspect the pump action of the liner that is needed for the waterproofing would go a bit wrong. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 18 Oct 2006 08:50:16 From: Alex Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Jan Lindstr=F6m wrote: > Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX > (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=3DJackets&cat=3DSoftshell). They = are > available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield > jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in > Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the > powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough. Nice jacket, but it is not waterproof. I also don't see any mention of vents. =20 ------------------- Alex   Date: 18 Oct 2006 08:47:04 From: Alex Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > - How soft & compressible is it? Medium soft. It won't compress enough to fit in a jersey pocket. > - Do they make one in Yellow or Orange? I only see gray and red on the web site. It does have nice reflective strips on the sleeves and back. It also has a loop for a blinky light on the back. > (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night > according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become > invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes > respond > slowest!) I don't doubt it, but that is why you have reflective material on the jacket. > - It looks a bit baggy - does it flap? I usually wear a size medium. I bought a size small and it fite me well. It does not flap when I wear it. > - I wonder if you can buy them in the UK I thin Nashbar will shipp internationally. > - I couldnt find on the manufacturers site > http://www.louisgarneau.com/eng/query.asp?qu=Supersonic Me neither. Maybe that is why they have it on sale relatively cheap. --------------------- Alex   Date: 18 Oct 2006 04:22:26 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Jan Lindstr=F6m wrote: > ship wrote: > > Hi > > > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > > UK) > > > > I am looking for something that is: > > > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > > c) ultra-Compact > > d) nearly(+) waterproof > > e) COOL > > > > Plus ideally: > > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > > g) fairly durable? > > > > Budget: upto GBP 300. > > > > Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX > (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=3DJackets&cat=3DSoftshell). They = are > available with or without a hood. Sadly the do NOT appear to come in any bright colours that would be visible at night. (See my previous comment about red not working at night). And that's a deal-breaker. Ship   Date: 18 Oct 2006 04:10:31 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Alex wrote: > > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > > satisfactory. > > Been there, done that. I had a Gill jacket that was very waterproof, > but didn't breath enough for my liking. No waterproof fabric will > breath enough by itself. What you need is a back vent as well as some > pit vents or chest vents. Right now I am using the Louis Garneau > Supersonic jacket that I got at the following location: > > http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=0732&sku=15982&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Brand%3A%20Louis%20Garneau > > The goodthings are that it is waterproof. It has a rear vent and pit > zips for extra ventilation. It also has a two way zipper. The hood is > detachable. It has a large rear center pocket where you can stow the > hood. It has a drop tail. It has a mesh lining. Those are all the > good things. > I wish that it was made of a lighter material as it gets too hot in > temps over 55 or so. The hood really coud use a bigger bill on it. As > is, the bill is so small as to be useless. It doesn't fold very > compactly. I haven't found a better jacket yet, so I will stick with > this one for now. - How soft & compressible is it? - Do they make one in Yellow or Orange? (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes respond slowest!) - It looks a bit baggy - does it flap? - I wonder if you can buy them in the UK - I couldnt find on the manufacturers site http://www.louisgarneau.com/eng/query.asp?qu=Supersonic Ship Shiperton Henethe     Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:47:09 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161169831.901122.3350@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: > (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night > according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become > invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes > respond slowest!) In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see color in the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody Blues's lyric "cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all colors from our sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of the eye. When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow. I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others.       Date: 18 Oct 2006 21:40:01 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote on 18/10/2006 15:47 +0100: > In article <1161169831.901122.3350@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > >> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night >> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become >> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes >> respond slowest!) > > In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see color in > the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody Blues's lyric > "cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all colors from our > sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of the eye. > > When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination > to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow. > I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative > response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if > some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others. Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci         Date: 18 Oct 2006 16:23:17 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4pnhp3Fjek06U4@individual.net >, Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com > wrote: > Tim McNaa wrote on 18/10/2006 15:47 +0100: > > In article <1161169831.901122.3350@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > > "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night > >> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become > >> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes > >> respond slowest!) > > > > In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see > > color in the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody > > Blues's lyric "cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all > > colors from our sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of > > the eye. > > > > When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough > > illumination to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to > > see than yellow. I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks > > to see about relative response time to different wavelengths, but I > > wouldn't be surprised if some wavelengths are seen "faster" than > > others. > > Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the > photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html Nice resource, keeps it simple. Thanks!   Date: 18 Oct 2006 03:59:47 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On 17 Oct 2006 02:39:45 -0700, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > >> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur > >> waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about > >> just getting wet. > > > >Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they > >have to TRAIN in the wet? > > > >I mean if you're actually *racing* who give a sh*t about being a tad > >wet! > >Speed, tactics etc occupy the mind... > > > >But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont > >actually > >*have* to ? > > > >( - Would any pros or hardcore semi-pros care to comment...?) > > > > > >Ship > >Shiperton Henethe > > Dear Ship, > > It's claimed that the quick-release was invented because Tullio > Campagnolo was so frustrated when he tried to change his flip-flop > wheel on a snowy pass: > > http://www.campyonly.com/history.html > > Page down once for a picture of Tullio in short sleeves in the snow. > > In the 2001 Tour de France, the undemanding stage 8 from Col was a > bit damp and chilly. > > The last 161 riders, including Armstrong, finished 35:24 behind 14 > riders who decided not to take it easy. Apart from glory, the 14 > no-name riders longed for hot showers and wanted to get out of the > near-freezing rain. > > Here's Tyler Hamilton's comment: > > "It doesn't take much for a guy like me to get really cold on a day > like today. Even though I was wearing multiple layers of clothing > there isn't much you can do when you're soaked to the bone. Especially > when there's no end to the cats and dogs pouring down on you. Luckily > there weren't any huge descents. When you're as cold I was today, a > down hill section can really do you in. I've been so cold before that > my hands were too numb to change gears. And after a stage like we just > endured, you can also look forward to duking it out with your roommate > for rights to the bath tub. That is if you're lucky enough to have one > in your room. A lot of European hotels only have shower stalls." > > Tyler finished 64th that day, 35:24 behind, just like Armstrong in > 51st place: > > http://www.velonews.com/race/tour2001/articles/1163.r.html > > Since over 90% of the field finished 35:24 behind the stage winner, > Tour de France officials had to invoke the rule that says anyone who > finishes that far behind is eliminated-- > > Unless it makes the Tour look bad. Conclusion: Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down big time. == > I am not alone! Ship     Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:56:57 From: pinnah Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >Conclusion: > >Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged >lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down >big time. I think you have this backwards. Professionals don't perform well when they cold. Hamilton's story is hypothermia 101. Body core gets cold and everything else goes to pieces. These guys are operating with less body fat insulation so they have thinner gins than most of us but the basics remain the same. I concluded 2 very different things from that story: 1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics. High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to increase the windproofness of the shell. 2) There is no way to stay dry in the rain under high excertion. None. If you want to stay dry, increase the waterproofness of the shell (you are only buying time here - all shell let water in eventually) and *decrease* your level of output to control sweating. -- Dave ============================================== "It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment." Aristotle, <<Politics >>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett ==============================================       Date: 18 Oct 2006 17:04:32 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Note also, that in a bike race the rider has to deal with water being tossed up by the riders in front of him -- which makes it even harder to stay dry. That's not the case when commuting. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************       Date: 18 Oct 2006 15:32:14 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) pinnah wrote: > 1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the > place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due > to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics. But a breathable waterproof shell will be bulkier and heavier (mainly an issue for stowing out of use) than something like a pertex top, which is easily windproof /enough/ to remove most of the chill. Only if it's chucking it down with rain does it make any sense to add the extra weight/bulk for waterproofing. > High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among > mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to > increase the windproofness of the shell. Mountaineers are often expecting to be in ambients well below zero and gale force from /any/ direction, not just the front. They'll also often be standing around doing very little for potentially long periods between the bouts of high exertion. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 18 Oct 2006 07:34:14 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Lindstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? > > Budget: upto GBP 300. > Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough. Jan     Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:06:59 From: Peter Cole Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Jan Lindström wrote: > ship wrote: >> Hi >> >> What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in >> UK) >> > > Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX > (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are > available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield > jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in > Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the > powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough. I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size (6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences with Powershield?       Date: 18 Oct 2006 18:13:45 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Lindstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Peter Cole wrote: > Jan Lindström wrote: >> ship wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in >>> UK) >>> >> >> Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX >> (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They >> are available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield >> jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in >> Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the >> powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough. > > I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size > (6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have > been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but > didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand > recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences > with Powershield? The Powershield fabric is rather warm, it has a fleece-lining inside. For instance, I just came back from a two-hour afternoon ride (it's about 7 degrees celsius) and I wore just my regular cycling jersey underneath the Powershield jacket and was comfortable, sweating of course, but comfortable. The breathability of the fabric is light years ahead of Gore XCR of any of the waterproof fabrics and much better than Gore-Tex Windstopper fabric. I've used the same jacket for alpine skiing in -20 temps wearing a shirt, middle layer and fleece under it, the fabric is stretchy. The fabric blocks almost all wind. The Millet jacket has arm pit zips, and opening the two breast pocket zips is a neat way to get some cool air in. I've ridden in plenty of rain with the jacket. It's comfortable in light rain forever. The water never gets through and wets your shoulders or upper back, but it's not shed off the fabric either - it seems to travel through the surface layer of fabric with gravity, ie it flows on your cuffs and at the hem. The jacket gets kind of half wet, the fleece lining is dry and the surface layer damp. The water resistance has stayed the same for 3 years of use and maybe 20 washes. If it rains hard (which it very seldom does here up north) the water will get through and wet your shoulders in half an hour - it's much like Gore Windstopper in that regard. Comparing the Powershield and my Gill Gore XCR jacket, if it's the typical Finnish light rain and cold when I start my ride, I'll put on the Powershield jacket and if there is a chance of heavy rain but it isn't raining I'll carry the XCR jacket, since it packs in way less space than the Powershield jacket. I did trust the Millet jacket's weather resistance enough to take it as my only wet weather jacket on my 2005 tour in the Alps. It performed well, but I bought the Gill jacket to cut down weight. For everyday use it's the jacket I choose in the autumn, which is much like the weather in UK winter. Jan       Date: 18 Oct 2006 14:20:02 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Peter Cole wrote: > I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size > (6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have > been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but > didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand > recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences > with Powershield? It's very good IME. We have MEC salopettes/bibs made from it and we use them for ski touring. I've been stood around in subzero conditions with gale force winds doing nothing much and still been nice and warm, and that's without any long johns on underneath. It also gives very good freedom of movement from the intrinsic stretch and keeps out the worst of showers pretty well too. OTOH it certainly isn't the sort of thing I'd want on other than a cold day. Another option would be Schoeller Dryskin, which isn't quite as thick or warm or windproof as the Powershield but is similarly stretchy and headed in the same direction for overall characteristics. Great stuff, but not too many jackets in it :-( Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:33:48 From: Alex Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > > > > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur > > waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about > > just getting wet. > > Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they > have to TRAIN in the wet? That's what rollers and trainers are for. They are not going to risk a crash or getting sick. ----------------- Alex     Date: 17 Oct 2006 15:31:20 From: Jay Beattie Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Alex" <adr5@columbia.edu > wrote in message news:1161110028.480422.99730@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > > ship wrote: > > > > > > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur > > > waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about > > > just getting wet. > > > > Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they > > have to TRAIN in the wet? > > That's what rollers and trainers are for. They are not going to risk a > crash or getting sick. The amateurs ride in the rain in Oregon all the time. I ride with racers (I would call it training, but I am not training for anything), and typical gear is a polypro undershirt, a storm jersey (one of the water resistant, wind-proof heavy jerseys), a jacket for the descents, thermal tights and booties. I did a ride this spring to the top of Larch Mountain, which is a 14 mile climb, and it rained for the whole day -- about 100 miles round trip. There was snow on the ground at the top, but the temperatures stayed above freezing. I imprudently wore a Burley jacket that was soaked through by the time I hit the climb, and I was shivering so hard on the descent that I could barely keep my bike going straight. The guys in the group who did the best had unvented, water proof shells that they put on for the descent. Some of the good climbers (who were pretty well dressed)ended up calling their wives for a bail-out at the bottom of the hill because they could not stop shivering. I eventually warmed up, probably because of my superior and abundant body fat. -- Jay Beattie.   Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:31:26 From: Alex Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote: > I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others > have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive > (Gore's ketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass > through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good > ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's ventilation > works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget of =A3300 > (the exchange rate ought to bring it below =A3100). > > http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=3D21_25 > > Hope this helps! This jacket reminds me of the Louis Garneau Supersonic that I have. The optional hood looks like it would be better than the one on the LG jacket. A nice bill is important to keep the water out of your eyes. ------------------- Alex   Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:20:18 From: Alex Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > satisfactory. Been there, done that. I had a Gill jacket that was very waterproof, but didn't breath enough for my liking. No waterproof fabric will breath enough by itself. What you need is a back vent as well as some pit vents or chest vents. Right now I am using the Louis Garneau Supersonic jacket that I got at the following location: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=0732&sku=15982&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Brand%3A%20Louis%20Garneau The goodthings are that it is waterproof. It has a rear vent and pit zips for extra ventilation. It also has a two way zipper. The hood is detachable. It has a large rear center pocket where you can stow the hood. It has a drop tail. It has a mesh lining. Those are all the good things. I wish that it was made of a lighter material as it gets too hot in temps over 55 or so. The hood really coud use a bigger bill on it. As is, the bill is so small as to be useless. It doesn't fold very compactly. I haven't found a better jacket yet, so I will stick with this one for now. ---------------- Alex     Date: 17 Oct 2006 15:53:32 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Alex" <adr5@columbia.edu > wrote: > Right now I am using the Louis Garneau >Supersonic jacket that I got at the following location: Not a bad looking choice! Looks like it has possibilities for me   Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:31:50 From: Ambrose Nankivell Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > My suggestion would be a nice merino jumper or [merino] fleece. You can keep warm in 2 layers of merino on an all day ride in the rain, and when you take it off you're fine and warm. For reflection, I'd suggest a reflective strip. A   Date: 17 Oct 2006 02:39:45 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur > waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about > just getting wet. Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they have to TRAIN in the wet? I mean if you're actually *racing* who give a sh*t about being a tad wet! Speed, tactics etc occupy the mind... But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont actually *have* to ? ( - Would any pros or hardcore semi-pros care to comment...?) Ship Shiperton Henethe     Date: 17 Oct 2006 20:43:05 From: pinnah Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they >have to TRAIN in the wet? Pros don't worry about being wet. All that is needed is to stay comfortably warm. You can be wet and warm at the same time. Warm when wet insulators and windproofness is all that's needed. This is very different from the commuting question of the OP -- Dave ============================================== "It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment." Aristotle, <<Politics >>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett ==============================================     Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:17:26 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 17 Oct 2006 02:39:45 -0700, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur >> waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about >> just getting wet. > >Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they >have to TRAIN in the wet? > >I mean if you're actually *racing* who give a sh*t about being a tad >wet! >Speed, tactics etc occupy the mind... > >But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont >actually >*have* to ? > >( - Would any pros or hardcore semi-pros care to comment...?) > > >Ship >Shiperton Henethe Dear Ship, It's claimed that the quick-release was invented because Tullio Campagnolo was so frustrated when he tried to change his flip-flop wheel on a snowy pass: http://www.campyonly.com/history.html Page down once for a picture of Tullio in short sleeves in the snow. In the 2001 Tour de France, the undemanding stage 8 from Col was a bit damp and chilly. The last 161 riders, including Armstrong, finished 35:24 behind 14 riders who decided not to take it easy. Apart from glory, the 14 no-name riders longed for hot showers and wanted to get out of the near-freezing rain. Here's Tyler Hamilton's comment: "It doesn't take much for a guy like me to get really cold on a day like today. Even though I was wearing multiple layers of clothing there isn't much you can do when you're soaked to the bone. Especially when there's no end to the cats and dogs pouring down on you. Luckily there weren't any huge descents. When you're as cold I was today, a down hill section can really do you in. I've been so cold before that my hands were too numb to change gears. And after a stage like we just endured, you can also look forward to duking it out with your roommate for rights to the bath tub. That is if you're lucky enough to have one in your room. A lot of European hotels only have shower stalls." Tyler finished 64th that day, 35:24 behind, just like Armstrong in 51st place: http://www.velonews.com/race/tour2001/articles/1163.r.html Since over 90% of the field finished 35:24 behind the stage winner, Tour de France officials had to invoke the rule that says anyone who finishes that far behind is eliminated-- Unless it makes the Tour look bad. Cheers, Carl Fogel     Date: 17 Oct 2006 10:01:51 From: Mark Thompson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont > actually > *have* to ? Wet? Stop being a wuss. I get wet every morning in the shower. <strikes macho pose > COLD and wet. Now that's the bstrd.       Date: 17 Oct 2006 11:08:37 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) k Thompson wrote: >> But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont >> actually >> *have* to ? > > Wet? Stop being a wuss. I get wet every morning in the shower. <strikes > macho pose> > > COLD and wet. Now that's the bstrd. You never go to swimming? Cold and wet in clothes not designed for being cold and wet in can be a drag, I'll grant you... Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 16 Oct 2006 19:17:05 From: David L. Johnson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:18:49 +0100, Simon Brooke wrote: > in message <1160997629.706562.73630@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ship > ('shiphen@gmail.com') wrote: >> b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE >> a) Bright in colour /reflective at night >> c) ultra-Compact >> d) nearly(+) waterproof >> e) COOL >> >> Plus ideally: >> f) aerodyamic/elastic?? >> g) fairly durable? >> >> Budget: upto GBP 300. well, at that budget you should be able to get something.... >> So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely >> satisfactory. IĀ have found that GorTex takes care of all my needs. I have a bright-yellow jacket made out of that (branded Gore Bike-Ware), which has kept me dry commuting for the past 2 years, no problem. Is it "cool"? Well, that is subjective. But it works, and it breathes -- helped along by pit-vents and a back vent, of course. I also have a wind-parka that is more compact, but my experience with such things is that they do not stop a determined rain. The rain jacket was (US) $120 or so, and the windbreaker was $40, well under your budget. > > I've found something I'm entirely satisfied with, which meets with all > your requirements except colour (it's very dark grey, although it has > reflective logos). That is, frankly, a bad decision on someone's part. Night-riding garments, and rain garments, need to be brightly colored as well as reflective. Reflective strips alone lead drivers to say "What the hell was that?" _after_ they run you down. -- David L. Johnson __o   Date: 16 Oct 2006 22:18:49 From: Simon Brooke Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) in message <1160997629.706562.73630@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, ship ('shiphen@gmail.com') wrote: > > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? > > Budget: upto GBP 300. > > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > satisfactory. I've found something I'm entirely satisfied with, which meets with all your requirements except colour (it's very dark grey, although it has reflective logos). It's a Campagnolo 'windproof' jacket which weighs 108 grammes and packs down to half the size of a coke can. Although it's described as 'windproof' I've had it out in some pretty severe rain and not got wet. Wiggle were selling them off for thirty quid a few weeks ago but don't seem to have them any more; I'm not sure whether this: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360017362 is this year's version. -- simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks? Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther -- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'   Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:10:25 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Pete Biggs wrote: > ship wrote: > >> Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in > >> colour, packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite > >> close-fitting, and lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if > >> you want reflectives. Not water resistant - but please see my > >> comments below. In the coldest weather I find a Lusso Tactel gilet > >> underneath is good for extra wind resistance without causing > >> over-heating. > > > > Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane. > > i.e. Not very showerproof at all! > > I said it was not water resistant. It's a recommendation for a > non-showerproof wind resistant jacket to wear when it's not raining. > Please read my whole message. Yes Pete I just tried to re read your message(s). And my response is please re-read mine whole message. I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not very shower proof just wont cut it! The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane. It's quite visible being bright yellow, incredibly soft & compressible (good for packing away) and it keeps the wind down moderately. But if the weather is "spitting" a little (as opposed to a down-poor) then I need something much better then the pertex - which unless I've only just re-proofed it becomes pretty useless in actual *rain* of any sort. It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket I seek simply doesnt really exist. Okay one final thought. What about wearing *two* layers of pertex? Or better yet - how about this crazy-sounding idea? According to Paramo theory the whole *reason* it's "analogy" jackets pump so well is because it has two hydrophobic layers of different diameter fibers. And by having very fine fibres on the *inside* and larger diameter fibres on the *outside* any water droplets will, in theory, be drawn to the outside. (Though where the *energy* comes from to power this pump movement remains a slight enigma!!). Anyhow, suppose I could find two two very, very lightweight jackets (each being the sort of thing that will easily compress down to something about the size of an apple) and suppose that - an here's the important bit - one being made from somewhat larger diameter fibers... THEN maybe together they would pump water out and thus keep me way drier then one would expect (e.g. from a pair of identical pertex jackets). So all I need now is to find another hydrophobic (water repelling) jacket a bit like my Pertex from Montane... that is very light and compressible... but which has individual fabric fibres that are *either* much larger OR much smaller than the Montane one. That way I would get something that compresses to the size of a pair of apples that will pump the rain and sweat out... Even though individually neither jacket is even close to being 'water proof'... Obviously it would run slighly hot (being as in slightly cold weather even one pertex jacket gets me rather hot after 20 minutes of cycling) But that would still be nothing like how hot/sweaty I get with a (Goretex) Paclite or with a heavy 'waterproof' type of Paramo! Mind you the problem with my Pertex is that it only has MINUTE reflectors (who so slighltly small !!?). Plus it has almost nothing in the way of vents... ship P.S. Btw I simply wear a work shirt under my jacket(s). Ship     Date: 19 Oct 2006 07:36:50 From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, ship wrote: > >And my response is please re-read mine whole message. >I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not >very shower proof just wont cut it! A car, with a roof, and a heater, and air conditioning. Because: >It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket >I seek simply doesnt really exist.     Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:21:48 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > very shower proof just wont cut it! On how many of your commutes does it rain at all? And how long are your commutes? Getting a bit damp from light rain going through ordinary clothing isn't /that/ bad, and getting a bit damp from sweat when wearing a waterproof jacket in heavy rain isn't /that/ bad - in London (where it's rarely terribly cold). > The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then > I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane. You can still wear it even if the weather is looking sh1t. Just change into your waterproof at a traffic light if it does come on to rain, and take it off when it stops. How often will you need to wear a showerproof for the whole journey, let alone a waterproof? It's just a few days per year. ~PB     Date: 16 Oct 2006 21:46:57 From: Clive George Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1161029424.984099.304890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not > very shower proof just wont cut it! > > The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then > I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane. > It's quite visible being bright yellow, incredibly soft & compressible > (good for packing away) and it keeps the wind down moderately. > > But if the weather is "spitting" a little (as opposed to a down-poor) > then > I need something much better then the pertex - which unless I've only > just re-proofed it becomes pretty useless in actual *rain* of any sort. > > It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket > I seek simply doesnt really exist. Yup. That's pretty much right. Somebody else gave a sensible answer : ride in a t-shirt you don't mind getting wet. Carry the work shirt in with you, and put it on when you ride. cheers, clive     Date: 16 Oct 2006 20:26:40 From: Mark Thompson Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket > I seek simply doesnt really exist. From what everyone has been saying, that's right. If I'm concerned about staying warm/dry then I carry both the showerproof and the waterproof jacket. Both scrunch up well in a jersey rear pocket/small saddle bag. Normally I'll be wearing one of them anyway.   Date: 16 Oct 2006 17:39:38 From: Tom Crispin Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On 16 Oct 2006 04:20:29 -0700, "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: > >Hi > >What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in >UK) > >I am looking for something that is: > >b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE >a) Bright in colour /reflective at night >c) ultra-Compact >d) nearly(+) waterproof >e) COOL > >Plus ideally: >f) aerodyamic/elastic?? >g) fairly durable? > >Budget: upto GBP 300. I do a lot of mountaineering as well as cycling and I have a range of jackets which I use for both activities. My Paramo Aspira smock is the undoubted winner in the cold and/or extreme wet for cycling and winter mountaineering. It will keep you warm and dry. It's bright in the day, but has no reflectives so I keep my bike well lit at night. It's quite long so doesn't need an extended back. http://www.paramo.co.uk/UK/acatalog/AspiraSmock-16-114.html Berghaus Bike is my everyday winter jacket, but it's a bit sweaty. It's certainly shower proof but it's very heavy. The reflective piping is excellent. I never use it for hill walking. It has an extended back. I don't think its still manafactured. Berghaus paclite is very light, showerproof and has good ventilation. Excellent for summer hillwalking and cycling when there is a possibility of a short sharp storm. It has no reflectives, so keep your bike well lit. It's short so you'll get a wet back. http://www.berghaus.com/   Date: 16 Oct 2006 08:34:34 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in colour, > packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite close-fitting, and > lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if you want reflectives. Not > water resistant - but please see my comments below. In the coldest weather > I find a Lusso Tactel gilet underneath is good for extra wind resistance > without causing over-heating. Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane. i.e. Not very showerproof at all! Ship     Date: 25 Oct 2006 06:25:11 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon > > What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel > > water? Anyone know? > > Not a question with a simple answer: just as there's a lot of difference > between coarse "normal" wool and superfine merino wool, all nylons (or > all polyesters or all polypros) are *not* created equal. The basic > yarns will differ and the weaving processes will also generate vastly > different performances as the gross structure of a fabric will influence > how it works to a great extent, as will the cut and proximity to your > body. Also, surface treatments will influence performance to some degree. > > What I'd suggest is to concentrate on comfort against your own skin as a > priority, and have a selection of base layers for different conditions. > I variously use about 8 different base layer garments, all of which I > like for various different reasons which include cut and fit as well as > material. Drat... so are none of the basic materials more hydrophobic or more hydrophilic? Ship       Date: 25 Oct 2006 14:45:47 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Drat... so are none of the basic materials more hydrophobic or > more hydrophilic? AFAICT not to the point where there isn't a clear overlap between different fibres of different base material. The exact grade of fibre, construction of the garment and weave of the cloth (plus any treatments added) will have more influence on the end result, I think. Also, "hydrophobic" and "hydrophilic" are not necessarily good or bad of themselves. How the garment is designed to use those factors will influence what it's good and bad for. For example, "wicking" is generally held to be a Good Thing, and you might think that a wicking lining in a breathable waterproof would clearly be a good idea... but if it gets wet from seepage into the cuffs and neck then it does a really efficient job of wicking that water /all over the inside of the jacket/, which actually isn't too useful... (guess how I learned that!). Base layers are doing a complex job and it's often down to finding the right spot to draw your compromises, but those "right spots" will be in different places for different people doing different things. It would be nice if we could say "X is a better fabric for these things because Y, period", but sadly it isn't that simple. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/     Date: 25 Oct 2006 03:54:27 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: > On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:55:51 +0100, "Pete Biggs" > <p@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc> wrote: > > >Peter Clinch wrote: > >> ship wrote: > >>> Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they > >>> may look cr*p but > >>> they would presumably: > >>> - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin > >>> - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation > >>> - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation > >> > >> Main problem is where will you find them made in other than cotton? > > > >From a bike shop that sells Briko clothing. The Briko Mesh vest is like a > >traditional string vest except it's made of soft Coolmax polyester. > > Santini sells one too. And you can get long- and short-sleeved shirts > of polypropylne from Super Brynje. > > http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10120533&category=0400 Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel water? Anyone know? Ship       Date: 25 Oct 2006 15:06:04 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon > What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel > water? Anyone know? I don't know, but all of them are good in regards to not absorbing water. I think that's because the individual fibres don't absorb anything so the water stays sitting on the outside of the fibres where it evapourates easily. Coolmax dries extremely quickly regardless of how much wicking is going on - as long as there is /some/ ventilation, which there will be unless wearing a tight plastic bag over the top. Not as comfortable as cotton to wear all day sitting around, though. ~PB       Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:06:14 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon > What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel > water? Anyone know? Not a question with a simple answer: just as there's a lot of difference between coarse "normal" wool and superfine merino wool, all nylons (or all polyesters or all polypros) are *not* created equal. The basic yarns will differ and the weaving processes will also generate vastly different performances as the gross structure of a fabric will influence how it works to a great extent, as will the cut and proximity to your body. Also, surface treatments will influence performance to some degree. What I'd suggest is to concentrate on comfort against your own skin as a priority, and have a selection of base layers for different conditions. I variously use about 8 different base layer garments, all of which I like for various different reasons which include cut and fit as well as material. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/     Date: 16 Oct 2006 18:12:09 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: >> Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in >> colour, packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite >> close-fitting, and lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if >> you want reflectives. Not water resistant - but please see my >> comments below. In the coldest weather I find a Lusso Tactel gilet >> underneath is good for extra wind resistance without causing >> over-heating. > > Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane. > i.e. Not very showerproof at all! I said it was not water resistant. It's a recommendation for a non-showerproof wind resistant jacket to wear when it's not raining. Please read my whole message. ~PB   Date: 16 Oct 2006 08:31:25 From: ship Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) > > I am looking for something that is: > > > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > > As suggested elsewhere, "highly breathable" and waterproof don't come > together, with the possible exception of Paramo's Analogy kit but that > falls down on "ultra compact" and can be a bit warm if it isn't very > cold. Hey ho. We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic! But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting. e=2Eg. under-arm vents. Like I say I am a fan of Paramo for hillwalking. Except it is way too hot and a bit bulky for my cycling. > > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > > The two don't come together, you'll need a bright colour and a separate > reflective system, scotchlite piping is probably more easily available > and it works well. This really *IS* truly pathetic that the manufacturers cant build some decent reflectors into their jackets. (.e.g What's wrong with Scotlite or whatever its called? And why cant they build some patterns of that in!) I notice that glove manufacturers tend to fail miserably in this department too! > > c) ultra-Compact > > d) nearly(+) waterproof > > e) COOL > > Pertex hits all the bases above although it will only keep the worst of > the rain off. It's near as dammit windproof, but that does take away > the cooling effect of the wind. There are various pertex cycle tops > available. Sorry YES! I forgot to mention. I currently own and use a Pertex top from Montane. VERY light & compressible *and* bright yellow so quite visible. *But* it's just not very waterproof. I regularly wash it in Nicwax Tech Wash and quite often in Nicwax TX Direct but it's still pretty useless at keeping out even a mild shower. At least after say a week of wearing it it becomes useless! The other problem is that even *immediately* after I've just washed it, my girlfriend complains that it stinks! She's correct it - that Nicwax stuff does smell rather - particularly after you pass a (VERY!) light iron over it as directed. Maybe there are better proofing fluids out there? But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are training and it rains? > > Plus ideally: > > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > > g) fairly durable? > > Pertex is actually pretty durable but not elastic. Something lie > Schoeller Dryskin would be stretchy, but probably a bit warm and I've > yet to see in hi-viz. Too warm is a deal-breaker. > > I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable, > > *massively* > > breathable and though not *technically* waterproof > > Paramo kit is waterproof. I'm told that depends who you speak to - apparently it doesnt hold back enough atmosphere's pressure to count But in practice I would certainly agree. > > ...BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather > > and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy). > > A pertex top is like a Paramo jacket without the lining. If you get a > close fit it'll not flap too much. I presume It would still be better if elasticated... > > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" =A3349.99 > > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" =A3259.99 > > Gore windproof stuff relies on laminates that while more breathable than > classic, Paclite and XCR Goretex are still not /that/ breatahble > compared to the laminate not being there. There's also stuff like the > Foska training tops which rely on a sandwich construction, but they're > not that cool. Ideal for winter though. How do Foska compare with Paramo? & where can I get them from? Ship     Date: 17 Oct 2006 20:39:06 From: pinnah Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote: >We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof >highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic! Naw. You can easily outsweat *any* shell material. Heck, you can outsweat a decent long-sleeved underlayer! Try it. Ride in a non-waterproof jacket in dry weather but don't take it off when you start to overheat. -- Dave ============================================== "It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment." Aristotle, <<Politics >>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett ==============================================     Date: 16 Oct 2006 16:59:54 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof > highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic! No, rockets to the moon is straightforward reaction physics. Rocket science is not exactly, errr, rocket science, in other words (the engineering can be tricky, but the physics is easy!). But with "waterproof breathable" you want air to freely pass through a jacket while stopping liquid water. That isn't actually too easy. > But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting. > e.g. under-arm vents. That's not sophisticated though. Hot air rises, and under arm vents are pointing in the wrong direction. Of course, if they point the right way the rain gets in... > This really *IS* truly pathetic that the manufacturers cant build some > decent Lots of them do. My dale pertex top has it, my wife's Paramo Velez has it, her Foska training jacket has it, my Lowe Atom waterproof has it, my Ronhill cycling waterproofs have it, etc. > Sorry YES! I forgot to mention. I currently own and use a Pertex top > from Montane. VERY light & compressible *and* bright yellow so quite > visible. > > *But* it's just not very waterproof. Go back to the first paragraph... the more stuff you have keeping liquid water out, the more you will prevent free flow of air too. > But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are > training and it rains? I doubt rain bothers them that much, to be honest, as long as they're warm enough then other comfort issues are moot for a pro. > I'm told that depends who you speak to - apparently it doesnt > hold back enough atmosphere's pressure to count > But in practice I would certainly agree. Hydrostatic head. That doesn't factor in the pump effect because that relies on you being in the jacket, which is why the lab tests say no. > How do Foska compare with Paramo? > & where can I get them from? Not sure how the warmth would compare so won't answer. www.foska.com! Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/       Date: 17 Oct 2006 08:58:27 From: Simon Brooke Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) in message <4phojrFj42ogU1@individual.net >, Peter Clinch ('p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk') wrote: > ship wrote: > >> But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are >> training and it rains? > > I doubt rain bothers them that much, to be honest, as long as they're > warm enough then other comfort issues are moot for a pro. I don't believe this is true. However, as anyone who cycles a lot knows, just being wet in rain is not uncomfortable in itself. Two things make it uncomfortable: one is cold, and the other is chafe. Adequate windproofing sorts the 'cold' issue providing you are riding hard enough to counter the heat-loss through evaporation, and a combination of good shorts and plenty of chamois cream fixes the chafe. The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about just getting wet. -- simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ [ This .sig intentionally left blank ]         Date: 17 Oct 2006 09:10:12 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 08:58 +0100: > > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur > waiting for them at the end of the ride; > And a beer and Jack Daniels ;-) -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci           Date: 17 Oct 2006 16:35:38 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:10:12 +0100, Tony Raven wrote: > Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 08:58 +0100: >> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur >> waiting for them at the end of the ride; > And a beer and Jack Daniels ;-) All kidding, tradition, and "hot toddy" lore aside, I've found that alcohol or caffeine just makes me colder. For instant carb replacement, a good beer can be very satisfying, but the alcohol's effect is greater when one is famished. Matt O.       Date: 16 Oct 2006 19:26:04 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4phojrFj42ogU1@individual.net >, Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote: > ship wrote: > > > But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting. e.g. > > under-arm vents. > > That's not sophisticated though. Hot air rises, and under arm vents > are pointing in the wrong direction. Of course, if they point the > right way the rain gets in... Because the cyclist is moving, the fact that the underarm vents point down is not misses the point because convection is not the mechanism of air movement. The cyclist creates an effective breeze which can be used to move air and ventilate the jacket. There are several possible venting locations, with intake vents at the sleeve cuffs, underarm vents and possibly the neck. Exhaust vents can be across the shoulder blades and the bottom hem. Double ended front zips are also helpful. IME underarm vents only are inadequate; there has to be air inflow up the arms, in under the armpitss and out the back of the jacket. As I mentioned earlier, my Showers Pass jacket makes better use of ventilation than any other jacket I have worn. My clothing remains quite dry. I bought mine after very positive reports from friends who had Showers Pass jackets on a 200 km brevet in pouring rain; whereas I was a soaked inside my jacket from sweat as if I had just ridden in the rain, they were practically dry and very comfortable. I've not had occasion to wear it for 8+ hours on a ride in the rain, but for an hour or two I have been pleased to find myself quite dry.     Date: 16 Oct 2006 16:45:22 From: Clive George Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1161012685.138837.103810@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... >But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are >training and it rains? Think about what rain gear is trying to do. On a very simplistic level, 'waterproof' describes it - ie keeping the water off. If one is wearing one's office clothes underneath, this is probably a relevant feature. However the actual problem this sort of clothing is trying to solve is how to keep warm (ok, I started off saying 'most', but then thought about what clothing does these days :-) ). So being wet isn't actually a problem so long as you're still warm. Which is the pro racer approach - the rain jackets they wear don't appear to have any pretence at being breathable. The most important bit is being windproof - stop the air blowing through, and you stop windchill. Bit boil in the bag, but this doesn't matter as long as they can let enough heat out. End of ride, take off manky wet jersey, wash, no problem. cheers, clive   Date: 16 Oct 2006 09:36:32 From: Peter Cole Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? > > Budget: upto GBP 300. > > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > satisfactory. > > > For completely waterproof, the best I can find is Gore Paclite. > Costs about GBP120-160, which is fine. > The problem is it ISNT VERY BREATHABLE. > > But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need > 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. > > The big problem is keeping cool & getting rid of *SWEAT* > because I dont have a shower at work. > > > I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable, > *massively* > breathable and though not *technically* waterproof it will keep > out even a down-poor. It has no membrane and is thus > implicitly resistant to puncturing and is highly durable... > It has vents for the armpits which is helpful too. > It's a fabulous jacket in the cold season in the scottish > mountains. > > ...BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather > and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy). > i.e. you cant compress it to fit into a pack very easily, > and you get far too hot when wearing it. > AND they dont make a bright yellow/pale orange varient > nor anything with reflectors on for night time use. > > - So... any recommendations? > > > Ship > Shiperton Henethe > > P.S. > There are some very expensive (GBP 250-350 ) Gore jackets which I > havent been > able to find in any shop (in Central London) e.g. Evans Waterloo > didnt have them... But on their website at least they didnt seem > to have them in BRIGHT colours (just dark blues and blacks...) > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" £349.99 > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" £259.99 > ... > I agree that there doesn't seem to be a perfect wet weather solution. For warm weather, I use a membrane type vest (Gore Activent). It folds small and keeps the torso dry and doesn't trap sweat too badly. In cold wet weather I bite the bullet and wear a heavier well-vented water repellent coated jacket and live with the inevitable condensation. I find that synthetic stretch fleece is about the best thing for wet warmth, so I wear that under.   Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:24:33 From: nobody760 Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) As previous poster 'does anything like this exist'? I would find jacket that suits your needs and then put a loose fitting builders Day-Glo/night stripes waistcoat over it.     Date: 16 Oct 2006 15:28:11 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) nobody760 wrote: > As previous poster 'does anything like this exist'? > > I would find jacket that suits your needs and then put a loose fitting > builders Day-Glo/night stripes waistcoat over it. Would spoil the aerodynamics that the OP wants, and also would be too warm most days in London. It's surprising how little material it takes to make you over-heat when cycling hard. I can't wear my Lusso gillet all the time and that's much much more minimal than one of those builders waistcoats. ~PB   Date: 16 Oct 2006 05:56:10 From: POHB Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need > 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. > The big problem is keeping cool & getting rid of *SWEAT* > because I dont have a shower at work. Does such a thing exist? I'd suggest putting a fresh work shirt in the space in your bag that a waterproof would take and wearing some kind of t-shirt for cycling. In colder weather wear two. It doesn't really matter if you get rained on occasionally if you've something dry to change into on arrival, even if you can't shower.   Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:36:55 From: Pete Biggs Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in colour, packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite close-fitting, and lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if you want reflectives. Not water resistant - but please see my comments below. In the coldest weather I find a Lusso Tactel gilet underneath is good for extra wind resistance without causing over-heating. * from www.mikedyason.com - http://tinyurl.com/ynb88d > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the ket that is remotely > satisfactory. I don't think you will do. On the minority of rides when it rains, accept either the extra sweatiness from a waterproof jacket or just get wet from the rain. In the dry, wear a good non-waterproof windproof jacket or gilet. /snip > But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need > 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. Most commutes in London there's no need for any water resistance at all. Carry a separate waterproof - perhaps a racing-style jacket with vents. ~PB     Date: 16 Oct 2006 09:39:23 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive (Gore's ketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's ventilation works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget of £300 (the exchange rate ought to bring it below £100). http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=21_25 Hope this helps!       Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:13:42 From: Jay Beattie Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Tim McNaa" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message news:timmcn-916FA4.09392316102006@news.iphouse.com... > I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others > have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive > (Gore's ketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass > through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good > ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's ventilation > works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget of £300 > (the exchange rate ought to bring it below £100). > > http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=21_25 > > Hope this helps! This jacket has been getting very good reviews in Portland and appears to be the jacket of choice among the wrenches -- particularly now that Burley is swirling down the tubes. -- Jay Beattie.       Date: 16 Oct 2006 16:25:33 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote: > I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others > have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive > (Gore's ketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass > through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). Up to a point, Lord Copper, but "wetter" means there isn't a positive vapour pressure gradient which isn't necessarily many people's idea of "wetter", as body heat amongst other factors will create a positive vapour pressure to push vapour through. You can certainly pass vapour through into a rainy cloud interior which is about as wet as it gets before getting submerged. However, it /is/ the case that practically everyone can easily sweat faster than a Goretex membrane can shift the result, and that sitting inside a windproof PTFE bag doesn't exactly inhibit you from sweating in the first place. eVent membrane seems to be quite a bit more breathable because the Clever Folk In White Coats behind it have managed to remove the need for the microporous layer to have an extra coating to prevent contamination which made the first microporous fabrics leak when used by sweaty people... This in turn means it breathes better, but it still won't breathe as well as if it's not there! Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/   Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:07:22 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE As suggested elsewhere, "highly breathable" and waterproof don't come together, with the possible exception of Paramo's Analogy kit but that falls down on "ultra compact" and can be a bit warm if it isn't very cold. Hey ho. > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night The two don't come together, you'll need a bright colour and a separate reflective system, scotchlite piping is probably more easily available and it works well. > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL Pertex hits all the bases above although it will only keep the worst of the rain off. It's near as dammit windproof, but that does take away the cooling effect of the wind. There are various pertex cycle tops available. > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? Pertex is actually pretty durable but not elastic. Something lie Schoeller Dryskin would be stretchy, but probably a bit warm and I've yet to see in hi-viz. > For completely waterproof, the best I can find is Gore Paclite. > Costs about GBP120-160, which is fine. > The problem is it ISNT VERY BREATHABLE. > > But on most days commuting in London I dont actually need > 100% waterproof - just VERY shower resistant would do. > > The big problem is keeping cool & getting rid of *SWEAT* > because I dont have a shower at work. > > > I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable, > *massively* > breathable and though not *technically* waterproof Paramo kit is waterproof. > ...BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather > and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy). A pertex top is like a Paramo jacket without the lining. If you get a close fit it'll not flap too much. > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" £349.99 > e.g. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" £259.99 Gore windproof stuff relies on laminates that while more breathable than classic, Paclite and XCR Goretex are still not /that/ breatahble compared to the laminate not being there. There's also stuff like the Foska training tops which rely on a sandwich construction, but they're not that cool. Ideal for winter though. I'd be inclined to get something like the Foska top for cold days and a close cut pertex top for more general use. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/     Date: 17 Oct 2006 20:35:15 From: pinnah Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote: >I'd be inclined to get something like the Foska top for cold days and a >close cut pertex top for more general use. I agree with pretty much everything Peter says, which is something goes back to many years. The only thing I would add is how important it is for Pertex shells to fit snuggly for cycling. My Pertex riding jacket flaps insanely enough to have warrant several self-tailoring episodes to tighten the fit. This is fine for fitness riding where I've dialed in the range of underlayers that will fit under that shell. For commuting, I would trade the wonderful qualities of Pertex for something a bit thicker with a heavier hand so that I could use a looser fit to deal with variable layers underneath better. Aside for Peter... Long time no see from back with rec.skiing.backcountry had a meaninful signal. You might be interested in my nordic backcountry page. Hope you're still finding time for skiing! http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html -- Dave ============================================== "It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment." Aristotle, <<Politics >>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett ==============================================   Date: 16 Oct 2006 13:02:38 From: Chris Smith Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > Hi > > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in > UK) > IMHO the only way to stay dry on top, and not boil-in-the-bag is with a Big Yellow Cape. Sadly, you will take off in anything other than a light breeze :( I've gradually learned that survival in wet weather is about controlling the degree of wetness; and not allowing yourself to get cold. This means keeping your feet warm, and as dry as possible for as long as possible. Let your legs get wet - there's nothing you can do about it really - if you wear longs, the trapped moisture and hard work will keep your legs warm. On top - wear a cheap windproof/showerproof jacket. I use a 4.99ukp Regatta thing in the summer, and an Altura Nevis in the winter. Then your usual wickable layers underneath - more layers in colder weather. HTH Chris   Date: 16 Oct 2006 04:42:16 From: Art Harris Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) ship wrote: > I am looking for something that is: > > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > c) ultra-Compact > d) nearly(+) waterproof > e) COOL > > Plus ideally: > f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > g) fairly durable? > > Budget: upto GBP 300. "Waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive terms that no amount of money will reconcile. Best advice is to get a decent "water resistant" thin windbreaker with vented back and arm pits. Here in the US, I bought an inexpensive Hind jacket a few years ago that's OK for light rain, but not a heavy downpour. Art Harris     Date: 17 Oct 2006 01:34:33 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Art Harris writes: >> I am looking for something that is: >> b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE >> a) Bright in colour /reflective at night >> c) ultra-Compact >> d) nearly(+) waterproof >> e) COOL >> Plus ideally: >> f) aerodyamic/elastic?? >> g) fairly durable? >> Budget: upto GBP 300. > "Waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive terms that no > amount of money will reconcile. Best advice is to get a decent > "water resistant" thin windbreaker with vented back and arm pits. > Here in the US, I bought an inexpensive Hind jacket a few years ago > that's OK for light rain, but not a heavy downpour. I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you can see from the pictures at: http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. 1. It must be water proof. 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and nose are exposed. 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing hands. 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially open even in rain. 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the wind when descending. Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. Jobst Brandt       Date: 17 Oct 2006 08:34:19 From: Jay Beattie Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message news:45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net... > Art Harris writes: > > >> I am looking for something that is: > > >> b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE > >> a) Bright in colour /reflective at night > >> c) ultra-Compact > >> d) nearly(+) waterproof > >> e) COOL > > >> Plus ideally: > >> f) aerodyamic/elastic?? > >> g) fairly durable? > > >> Budget: upto GBP 300. > > > "Waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive terms that no > > amount of money will reconcile. Best advice is to get a decent > > "water resistant" thin windbreaker with vented back and arm pits. > > Here in the US, I bought an inexpensive Hind jacket a few years ago > > that's OK for light rain, but not a heavy downpour. > > I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in > the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you > can see from the pictures at: > > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html > > For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > 1. It must be water proof. > > 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and > nose are exposed. > > 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must > insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing > hands. > > 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially > open even in rain. > > 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > wind when descending. > > Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced > convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket > remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa > Clause with many layers of clothing. You are describing a "descending the Alps in the snow jacket" which is not the same thing as commuting in the rain jacket. For commuting, a single-wall, breathable and well vented jacket is a good bet. I commute in a Burley rain jacket with pit zips and a back vent, which stays reasonably dry inside even when I go home through the hills. As for long descents in the wet and cold, it would not be my first choice because it suffers from all the ills you mention. I am still experimenting with that, but I think the best approach may be a weatherproof/breathable jersey up and a packable storm shell down (this is day riding with no seatpacks or panniers). -- Jay Beattie.         Date: 17 Oct 2006 12:49:57 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote: > I commute in a Burley rain jacket with pit zips and a >back vent, which stays reasonably dry inside even when I go home >through the hills. Burley went out of business. Yes?       Date: 17 Oct 2006 06:04:34 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa > Clause with many layers of clothing. Buy women's sizes? Works for me. -- Michael Press       Date: 17 Oct 2006 00:25:38 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > 1. It must be water proof. > > 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and > nose are exposed. > > 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must > insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing > hands. > > 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially > open even in rain. > > 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > wind when descending. > > Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced > convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket > remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa > Clause with many layers of clothing. Good for your purposes, but I wonder if a rain jacket like that would be suitable for riding to work in typical cool, rainy weather. On the rides you describe, getting chilled could be life threatening if you start to shiver and the bike develops a wobble on a mountain hairpin descent, or if your hands get cold enough that you can't grip the brakes properly. On a commute to work in one's office clothing, on the other hand, one might arrive at work a sodden mess from sweat. I have a jacket much like you describe (urethane coated nylon bought from Nashbar or Performance about 10 years ago), but riding in it for 20 miles in the rain on a 55 degree F day is like being a boil-in-the-bag dinner. In a cold rain it works fairly well, but even then its limitations can be reached as I found out on a 200 km brevet with 8+ hours of rain in the low 40s F. My other jacket is useful over a wider range of conditions, but does not have a hood (a detachable one is available, but I haven't bought it as I really don't like hoods). Basically, I've not found any jacket that keeps on dry from the rain and also from sweat. Until nanotechnology invents some miracle fabric that actively transports water vapor molecules and heat out and cool air in, rain jackets will make the rider damp from sweat. Good ventilation, I have found, is currently the key to comfort. For cold weather riding, I find jackets useless. Even at freezing temps, the sweat buildup is problematic. I just pile on more insulating layers of materials that are knit rather than woven, as I find these breathe better. In my case, that generally means a wool base layer and a varying number of wool jerseys and possibly a wool sweater over the top. For the legs I make do with Lycra tights or PowerStretch 100 tights from Col d'Lizard. Lake winter SPD boots have made cold weather riding feasible for me.         Date: 17 Oct 2006 20:08:34 From: pinnah Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: >Basically, I've not found any jacket that keeps on dry from the rain and >also from sweat. Until nanotechnology invents some miracle fabric that >actively transports water vapor molecules and heat out and cool air in, >rain jackets will make the rider damp from sweat. Good ventilation, I >have found, is currently the key to comfort. This is something that is lost on many people. I generally suggest 2 experiments to those who haven't come this conclusion. 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath. In a steady rain, wear a high quality non-breathable rain jacket and perform some non-strenuous activity (fishing in a boat, perhaps). Eventually, you will wet inside due to water intrusion at the hood and cuffs. All waterproof/breathables fall between these 2 extremes. Of them, GoreTex has traditionally provided the most breathability for the same waterproofness. IME, it remains the best for high output activities in wet weather near freezing temp (like fall/spring backpacking in New England). Another big benifit of GoreTex is its improved windproofness. This can allow for fewer layers in windy (or fast-forward) conditions. I've had very different experiences with lined jackets than Jobst mentions. I've found that lined jackets of all kinds eventally get soaked inside and out (as all jackets do in horrible conditions) but once soaked, they take forever to dry out. The inner layers, whether nylon or mesh, hold moisture for a very long time. I find these fine for about town wear, for lift served skiing and other front country applications where you can retreat to shelter and dryers. But for backcountry applications or for times where yo uneed the jacket to dry faster, I prefer an unlined jacket. For bike commuting, I totally agree with the advice already given. Get a GoreTex jacket for wet conditions and a cheap non-waterproof jacket for all other times. Lastly, you might check your local library for the backpacking books authored by Chris Townsend (a fellow Brit). He has one of the best discussions of waterproof/breathables I've read (and I really like Colin Fletcher). He also discusses Sympatex which has more availability in Europe and Buffalo Systems P&P clothing. (not that I would suggest the P&P stuff for bike commuting) -- Dave ============================================== "It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts without the proper equipment." Aristotle, <<Politics >>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett ==============================================           Date: 18 Oct 2006 10:38:32 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) pinnah <pinnah.KILL@THIS.comcast.net > wrote: >For bike commuting, I totally agree with the advice already given. Get >a GoreTex jacket for wet conditions and a cheap non-waterproof jacket >for all other times. On the goretex one above Do you think they should be cycling specific tho? Reason I ask is I'm not a big fan of buying action specific gear. Id "rather" buy gear that can be used for cycling, hiking, daily wear, etc. I'm poor. cant buy everything under the sun. <g > Do you feel it's even POSSIBLE to have NON sport specific clothing?           Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:11:39 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100: > > 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it > all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without > adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since > you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath. > Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour to climb in the UK. -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci             Date: 18 Oct 2006 23:02:35 From: Ambrose Nankivell Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tony Raven wrote: > pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100: >> >> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip >> it all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without >> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since >> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath. >> > > Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour > to climb in the UK. What's your time for Bealach Na Ba? A             Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:32:45 From: Peter Clinch Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tony Raven wrote: > pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100: >> >> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it >> all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without >> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since >> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath. > Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour > to climb in the UK. Note "hike". If you can get up the Ben in an hour's hiking I'd be quite surprised. 10m/minute ascent is good going up a steep hill, and it's a lot more than 600m! Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/               Date: 18 Oct 2006 21:38:15 From: Tony Raven Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Peter Clinch wrote on 18/10/2006 09:32 +0100: > Tony Raven wrote: >> pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100: >>> >>> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it >>> all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without >>> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since >>> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath. > >> Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour >> to climb in the UK. > > Note "hike". If you can get up the Ben in an hour's hiking I'd be quite > surprised. 10m/minute ascent is good going up a steep hill, and it's a > lot more than 600m! > Doh! For hike I read bike! -- Tony "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci         Date: 17 Oct 2006 17:48:19 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa writes: >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as >> you can see from the pictures at: >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >> 1. It must be water proof. >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes >> and nose are exposed. >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent >> freezing hands. >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front >> partially open even in rain. >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >> wind when descending. >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > Good for your purposes, but I wonder if a rain jacket like that > would be suitable for riding to work in typical cool, rainy weather. > On the rides you describe, getting chilled could be life threatening > if you start to shiver and the bike develops a wobble on a mountain > hairpin descent, or if your hands get cold enough that you can't > grip the brakes properly. On a commute to work in one's office > clothing, on the other hand, one might arrive at work a sodden mess > from sweat. As you see, I qualified the reks for my use on bicycle tours. What you ride to work doesn't look like want I describe. Jobst Brandt           Date: 19 Oct 2006 03:11:06 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <45351763$0$34579$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Tim McNaa writes: > > >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour > >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as > >> you can see from the pictures at: > > >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > >> 1. It must be water proof. > > >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes > >> and nose are exposed. > > >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but > >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent > >> freezing hands. > > >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front > >> partially open even in rain. > > >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > >> wind when descending. > > >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from > >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the > >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold > >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. Jobst, I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to at least zero. http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's colours) that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My wife thinks this is weird. Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do like this jacket, though. On longer wet rides, I add a plastic rain jacket, not quite as form-fitted as the jacket. I also wear a helmet (sometimes with a cap underneath) which obviates much of the need for a hood. I have a neck sock or two for really wacky weather. The rain cape, with its velcro front closure, stops water dead. For gloves, I have given up on fancy, and chosen the nuclear option: neoprene paddling gloves. They're boring, non-breathing, and neither wind, nor rain, nor dead of night can keep my hands from being warm. I am satisfied with this gear for rides up into the 3-hour range: after 3 hours of typical 2-5 C wet weather in the dead of a Vancouver winter, this outfit leaves me warm, comfortable, and pretty dry. Still looking for a comparable footwear solution, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos             Date: 19 Oct 2006 04:03:36 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ryan Cousineau writes: >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as >> you can see from the pictures at: >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >> 1. It must be water proof. >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes >> and nose are exposed. >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent >> freezing hands. >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front >> partially open even in rain. >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >> wind when descending. >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau > Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic > cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably > warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to at > least zero. http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing posing racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's too bad, because there are many imitators out there emulating that appearance, even looking over their shoulder to see if an imagined chase group is catching up. Can't we just ride bike instead of so much posturing? > I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's > colours) that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My > wife thinks this is weird. Well I didn't find your team colors on that web site, but if the jacket is as garish as most, I would agree with your wife. There is more to life than bicycle racing and hanging it out in other venues. > Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do > like this jacket, though. Well, that may well be, but I qualified my description for touring in high country, be that Mt. Evans CO or the Alps. Without a hood, the jacket is not good enough and from your description I cannot tell whether it flaps on descents, another major failing of most jackets for the reason I mentioned. Jobst Brandt               Date: 19 Oct 2006 18:41:51 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:03:36 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: >> I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau >> Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic cuffs, >> and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably warm, >> rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to at least >> zero. > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 > > The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing posing > racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's too bad, because > there are many imitators out there emulating that appearance, even > looking over their shoulder to see if an imagined chase group is > catching up. Can't we just ride bike instead of so much posturing? Your point is well taken, but note that Louis Garneau's main business is probably selling custom team and club jerseys, even though they make lots of other stuff. Still, I think the industry misses a lot with their one-note keting schtick. They don't seem to know how to sell anything, except with racer imagery. They also have no idea how the web works, which is why they have stupid websites with no useful information, and that prevent deep-linking. >> I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's colours) >> that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My wife thinks >> this is weird. > > Well I didn't find your team colors on that web site, but if the jacket > is as garish as most, I would agree with your wife. There is more to > life than bicycle racing and hanging it out in other venues. I resent that I can't buy good outdoor gear that doesn't scream "bike geek" or "ski geek" or whatever. Matt O.               Date: 19 Oct 2006 06:33:58 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <4536f918$0$34505$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: > > >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour > >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as > >> you can see from the pictures at: > > >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > >> 1. It must be water proof. > > >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes > >> and nose are exposed. > > >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but > >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent > >> freezing hands. > > >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front > >> partially open even in rain. > > >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > >> wind when descending. > > >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from > >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the > >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold > >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > > > I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau > > Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic > > cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably > > warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to at > > least zero. > > http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 > > The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing posing > racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's too bad, > because there are many imitators out there emulating that appearance, > even looking over their shoulder to see if an imagined chase group is > catching up. Can't we just ride bike instead of so much posturing? You have a strong opinion of posing. It must be said that the splash page you object to is for Garneau's "Custom" line, which is to say, directly aimed at clubs doing bulk orders of team kit. I can't vouch for the tri-guy, but all the other pics I can identify as being one of the elite teams LG sponsors: Jittery Joe's (US Div III, I think), Garneau Optik (Quebec team, possibly espoir-level), and Boyuges Telecom (recently seen contesting the Tour de France). In fact, except for one training-ride shot of Jittery Joe's, I'm pretty sure all those pictures were taken in the heat of competition. > > I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's > > colours) that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My > > wife thinks this is weird. > > Well I didn't find your team colors on that web site, but if the > jacket is as garish as most, I would agree with your wife. There is > more to life than bicycle racing and hanging it out in other venues. Red and white: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/53270926/ http://escapevelocity.bc.ca/ My wife is right. But honest: it's strictly a comfort thing. > > Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do > > like this jacket, though. > > Well, that may well be, but I qualified my description for touring in > high country, be that Mt. Evans CO or the Alps. Without a hood, the > jacket is not good enough and from your description I cannot tell > whether it flaps on descents, another major failing of most jackets > for the reason I mentioned. It fits racer-jersey tight. It does not flap, and indeed, it is highly conformal. I have worn it in especially cold and wet races. I'm surprised at your insistence on a hood, but suggest again that it has a lot to do with your preference for riding without a helmet, too. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but my local jurisdiction treats adults like children, and all local races are helmets-mandatory. Between those two rules, I don't end up bare-headed except for daring forays a few blocks from my house. Which I sometimes do on my 7-speed BMX, but that's another story. Perhaps a balaclava? -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos                 Date: 19 Oct 2006 21:08:08 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Ryan Cousineau writes: >>>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour >>>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as >>>> you can see from the pictures at: http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html >>>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >>>> 1. It must be water proof. >>>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes >>>> and nose are exposed. >>>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >>>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent >>>> freezing hands. >>>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >>>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front >>>> partially open even in rain. >>>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >>>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >>>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >>>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in >>>> the wind when descending. >>>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >>>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so >>>> the jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >>>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >>>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least >>>> not with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most >>>> jackets have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body >>>> to hold Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. >>> I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau >>> Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic >>> cuffs, and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is rekably >>> warm, rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to >>> at least zero. >> http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7 >> The main page of this web site is a compendium of grimacing posing >> racers as is common in today's bicycling press. That's too bad, >> because there are many imitators out there emulating that >> appearance, even looking over their shoulder to see if an imagined >> chase group is catching up. Can't we just ride bike instead of so >> much posturing? > You have a strong opinion of posing. It must be said that the > splash page you object to is for Garneau's "Custom" line, which is > to say, directly aimed at clubs doing bulk orders of team kit. I > can't vouch for the tri-guy, but all the other pics I can identify > as being one of the elite teams LG sponsors: Jittery Joe's (US Div > III, I think), Garneau Optik (Quebec team, possibly espoir-level), > and Boyuges Telecom (recently seen contesting the Tour de France). > In fact, except for one training-ride shot of Jittery Joe's, I'm > pretty sure all those pictures were taken in the heat of > competition. So what are you getting at? Riders today spend much time looking right just cruising around or racing. It's all Hollywood and they don't even recognize it anymore. >>> I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's >>> colours) that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My >>> wife thinks this is weird. >> Well I didn't find your team colors on that web site, but if the >> jacket is as garish as most, I would agree with your wife. There >> is more to life than bicycle racing and hanging it out in other >> venues. > Red and white: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/53270926/ http://escapevelocity.bc.ca/ > My wife is right. But honest: it's strictly a comfort thing. >>> Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do >>> like this jacket, though. >> Well, that may well be, but I qualified my description for touring in >> high country, be that Mt. Evans CO or the Alps. Without a hood, the >> jacket is not good enough and from your description I cannot tell >> whether it flaps on descents, another major failing of most jackets >> for the reason I mentioned. > It fits racer-jersey tight. It does not flap, and indeed, it is highly > conformal. I have worn it in especially cold and wet races. > I'm surprised at your insistence on a hood, but suggest again that it > has a lot to do with your preference for riding without a helmet, too. > Not that there's anything wrong with that, but my local jurisdiction > treats adults like children, and all local races are helmets-mandatory. > Between those two rules, I don't end up bare-headed except for daring > forays a few blocks from my house. Which I sometimes do on my 7-speed > BMX, but that's another story. The hood is needed to cover the neck and cheeks or you can get off the bicycle and quit as many riders did when Andy Hampsten got a change of clothes and a hooded parka on the Gavia summit for his GdI win. I take it you have not descended in snow or you would know that the hood is essential to stay on the bicycle. I watched the GdI come over the Stelvio in the 1970's and on that day there was no broom wagon nor any check on how riders other than the leaders finished, in a car or otherwise. Charley Gaul had a hooded jacket but others didn't and finished in Bormio not on the bicycle. My friend and I descended to the east with appropriate parkas and gloves. On my first such endeavor on Mt. Evans CO, I could not descend from for lack of a hood, there being a biting wind with light snow on my neck. We were able to get a ride in a car. That's were I learned my lesson. > Perhaps a balaclava? Oh you comedian! Jobst Brandt                   Date: 21 Oct 2006 03:11:00 From: Rob Perkins Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: >e were able to get a ride in a car. That's were I > learned my lesson. > >> Perhaps a balaclava? > > Oh you comedian! Balaclavas are the best. A hood? Really? How about a waterproof helmet cover over a lightweight polypro balaclava? i descended from Fluela in the rain and have ridden a lot in cold weather with this. No cold air down the front. When not used i stowed the items in my saddlebag where extra stuff belongs. And i am not dependent on having a nonbreathable rain jacet on. Betcha never tried it. Or maybe you are too cool? Rob                   Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:54:30 From: G.T. Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > The hood is needed to cover the neck and cheeks or you can get off the > bicycle and quit as many riders did when Andy Hampsten got a change of > clothes and a hooded parka on the Gavia summit for his GdI win. I > take it you have not descended in snow or you would know that the hood > is essential to stay on the bicycle. > > I watched the GdI come over the Stelvio in the 1970's and on that day > there was no broom wagon nor any check on how riders other than the > leaders finished, in a car or otherwise. Charley Gaul had a hooded > jacket but others didn't and finished in Bormio not on the bicycle. > > My friend and I descended to the east with appropriate parkas and > gloves. On my first such endeavor on Mt. Evans CO, I could not > descend from for lack of a hood, there being a biting wind with light > snow on my neck. We were able to get a ride in a car. That's were I > learned my lesson. > Hmmm, you must be a weather wimp. I've done long descents in the snow many times never having owned a jacket with a hood. Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons                     Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:26:41 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <12ji3ami5519035@corp.supernews.com >, "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com > wrote: > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > > > The hood is needed to cover the neck and cheeks or you can get off the > > bicycle and quit as many riders did when Andy Hampsten got a change of > > clothes and a hooded parka on the Gavia summit for his GdI win. I > > take it you have not descended in snow or you would know that the hood > > is essential to stay on the bicycle. > > > > I watched the GdI come over the Stelvio in the 1970's and on that day > > there was no broom wagon nor any check on how riders other than the > > leaders finished, in a car or otherwise. Charley Gaul had a hooded > > jacket but others didn't and finished in Bormio not on the bicycle. > > > > My friend and I descended to the east with appropriate parkas and > > gloves. On my first such endeavor on Mt. Evans CO, I could not > > descend from for lack of a hood, there being a biting wind with light > > snow on my neck. We were able to get a ride in a car. That's were I > > learned my lesson. > > > > Hmmm, you must be a weather wimp. I've done long descents in the snow > many times never having owned a jacket with a hood. > > Greg You probably wore a hilarious balaclava. Or possibly a baklava, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos                       Date: 20 Oct 2006 19:36:05 From: G.T. Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote in message news:rcousine-C0E368.19264020102006@news.telus.net... > In article <12ji3ami5519035@corp.supernews.com>, > "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote: > > > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > > > > > The hood is needed to cover the neck and cheeks or you can get off the > > > bicycle and quit as many riders did when Andy Hampsten got a change of > > > clothes and a hooded parka on the Gavia summit for his GdI win. I > > > take it you have not descended in snow or you would know that the hood > > > is essential to stay on the bicycle. > > > > > > I watched the GdI come over the Stelvio in the 1970's and on that day > > > there was no broom wagon nor any check on how riders other than the > > > leaders finished, in a car or otherwise. Charley Gaul had a hooded > > > jacket but others didn't and finished in Bormio not on the bicycle. > > > > > > My friend and I descended to the east with appropriate parkas and > > > gloves. On my first such endeavor on Mt. Evans CO, I could not > > > descend from for lack of a hood, there being a biting wind with light > > > snow on my neck. We were able to get a ride in a car. That's were I > > > learned my lesson. > > > > > > > Hmmm, you must be a weather wimp. I've done long descents in the snow > > many times never having owned a jacket with a hood. > > > > Greg > > You probably wore a hilarious balaclava. > > Or possibly a baklava, > Yep, I've been known to wear baklava on my face. Greg                   Date: 19 Oct 2006 17:10:57 From: dvt Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Ryan Cousineau writes: >> Perhaps a balaclava? > > Oh you comedian! Why is that so funny? -- Dave "humor-impaired" who? dvt at psu dot edu         Date: 17 Oct 2006 14:22:51 From: Robin Hubert Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Tim McNaa wrote: > In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >> >> 1. It must be water proof. >> >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and >> nose are exposed. >> >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must >> insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing >> hands. >> >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >> >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially >> open even in rain. >> >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >> >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >> wind when descending. >> >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced >> convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket >> remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >> >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa >> Clause with many layers of clothing. > > Good for your purposes, but I wonder if a rain jacket like that would be > suitable for riding to work in typical cool, rainy weather. On the > rides you describe, getting chilled could be life threatening if you > start to shiver and the bike develops a wobble on a mountain hairpin > descent, or if your hands get cold enough that you can't grip the brakes > properly. On a commute to work in one's office clothing, on the other > hand, one might arrive at work a sodden mess from sweat. Just for the record, it's not your hands getting cold that prevents them from working, for the most part. It's your forearms and Jobst mentioned keeping them warm (" ... to prevent freezing hands"). > I have a jacket much like you describe (urethane coated nylon bought > from Nashbar or Performance about 10 years ago), but riding in it for 20 > miles in the rain on a 55 degree F day is like being a boil-in-the-bag > dinner. In a cold rain it works fairly well, but even then its > limitations can be reached as I found out on a 200 km brevet with 8+ > hours of rain in the low 40s F. My other jacket is useful over a wider > range of conditions, but does not have a hood (a detachable one is > available, but I haven't bought it as I really don't like hoods). > > Basically, I've not found any jacket that keeps on dry from the rain and > also from sweat. Until nanotechnology invents some miracle fabric that > actively transports water vapor molecules and heat out and cool air in, > rain jackets will make the rider damp from sweat. Good ventilation, I > have found, is currently the key to comfort. > > For cold weather riding, I find jackets useless. Even at freezing > temps, the sweat buildup is problematic. I just pile on more insulating > layers of materials that are knit rather than woven, as I find these > breathe better. In my case, that generally means a wool base layer and > a varying number of wool jerseys and possibly a wool sweater over the > top. For the legs I make do with Lycra tights or PowerStretch 100 > tights from Col d'Lizard. Lake winter SPD boots have made cold weather > riding feasible for me. Robin Hubert       Date: 17 Oct 2006 03:04:52 From: Artoi Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in > the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you > can see from the pictures at: > > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html > > For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > > 1. It must be water proof. > > 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and > nose are exposed. > > 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must > insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing > hands. > > 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > > 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially > open even in rain. > > 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > > 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > wind when descending. > > Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced > convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket > remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > > Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa > Clause with many layers of clothing. Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches the requirements? Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) --         Date: 17 Oct 2006 17:41:04 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) Artoi who? writes: >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as >> you can see from the pictures at: http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >> 1. It must be water proof. >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes >> and nose are exposed. >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent >> freezing hands. >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially >> open even in rain. >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >> wind when descending. >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches > the requirements? > Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) The ones I have came form LL Bean and North Face and are not current items ate either place. Just go to your mountaineering store and search. I found no one at Patagonia at InterBike to whom I could discuss the subject. However, I think they have some parkas that come close to what I prefer. Jobst Brandt           Date: 17 Oct 2006 17:08:44 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:41:04 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote: > Artoi who? writes: > >>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour >>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as >>> you can see from the pictures at: > > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html > >>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > >>> 1. It must be water proof. > >>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes >>> and nose are exposed. > >>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but >>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent >>> freezing hands. > >>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > >>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially >>> open even in rain. > >>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > >>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >>> wind when descending. > >>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from >>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the >>> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > >>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >>> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >>> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold >>> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing. > >> Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches >> the requirements? > >> Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) > > The ones I have came form LL Bean and North Face and are not current > items ate either place. Just go to your mountaineering store and > search. I found no one at Patagonia at InterBike to whom I could > discuss the subject. However, I think they have some parkas that come > close to what I prefer. As the owner of one of those, I can recommend the Lightning model or its successors. Actually I think they have several now on sale that are about the same thing. Look for "contoured fit," or email one of their reps to find the best equivalent. If I hadn't found this one, I probably would have bought a Showers Pass. They do make non-Goretex, waterproof versions of their jackets for a lot less money. Showers Pass have a nice cycling-specific cut, and pack small enough to fit in a normal seat bag. Matt O.           Date: 17 Oct 2006 15:28:39 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: >> Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) > >The ones I have came form LL Bean and North Face and are not current >items ate either place. Just go to your mountaineering store and >search. I found no one at Patagonia at InterBike to whom I could >discuss the subject. However, I think they have some parkas that come >close to what I prefer. So basically you like something like a mt parka then, right Jobst?         Date: 16 Oct 2006 21:03:51 From: Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 03:04:52 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote: >In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in >> the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you >> can see from the pictures at: >> >> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html >> >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >> >> 1. It must be water proof. >> >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and >> nose are exposed. >> >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must >> insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing >> hands. >> >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >> >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially >> open even in rain. >> >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >> >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >> wind when descending. >> >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced >> convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket >> remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >> >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa >> Clause with many layers of clothing. > >Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches the >requirements? > >Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) Dear Artoi, http://www.rus-sell.com/item7932-soviet+guard+officer+winter+trench+coat.html Cheers, Carl Fogel           Date: 17 Oct 2006 09:44:15 From: Simon Brooke Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) in message <6vh8j2d63r29mgekhc07k9p28g35iskoof@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net ('carlfogel@comcast.net') wrote: > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 03:04:52 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, >> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: >> >>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in >>> the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you >>> can see from the pictures at: >>> >>> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html >>> >>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. >>> >>> 1. It must be water proof. >>> >>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and >>> nose are exposed. >>> >>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must >>> insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing >>> hands. >>> >>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. >>> >>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially >>> open even in rain. >>> >>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry >>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. >>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. >>> >>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the >>> wind when descending. >>> >>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced >>> convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket >>> remains still and notice how much warmer it is. >>> >>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried >>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not >>> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets >>> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa >>> Clause with many layers of clothing. >> >>Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches the >>requirements? >> >>Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) > http://www.rus-sell.com/item7932-soviet+guard+officer+winter+trench+coat.html Ha! As it happens, I have one of those (well, mine's ex-Swedish army, but of very similar design and construction). It's very nice for standing around do nothing on a cold winter's night, but I wouldn't try riding a bike in it! -- simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible ;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought ;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003           Date: 17 Oct 2006 03:30:15 From: Artoi Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) In article <6vh8j2d63r29mgekhc07k9p28g35iskoof@4ax.com >, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote: > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 03:04:52 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >In article <45343329$0$34559$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > > > >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour in > >> the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as you > >> can see from the pictures at: > >> > >> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html > >> > >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works. > >> > >> 1. It must be water proof. > >> > >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes and > >> nose are exposed. > >> > >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but must > >> insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent freezing > >> hands. > >> > >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front. > >> > >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially > >> open even in rain. > >> > >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry > >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside. > >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle. > >> > >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the > >> wind when descending. > >> > >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from forced > >> convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the jacket > >> remains still and notice how much warmer it is. > >> > >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried > >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not > >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets > >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold Santa > >> Clause with many layers of clothing. > > > >Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches the > >requirements? > > > >Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;) > http://www.rus-sell.com/item7932-soviet+guard+officer+winter+trench+coat.html Nice and warm. But I couldn't see whether there's velcro on those lovely cuffs. :P --   Date: 16 Oct 2006 12:24:51 From: Clive George Subject: Re: What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting) "ship" <shiphen@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1160997629.706562.73630@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in >UK) Have you tried any of the altura ones? I've actually stopped wearing a jacket until proper winter comes - I let my jersey get wet, since it would anyway from sweat. cheers, clive