bell really needed in Manhattan?

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Date: 01 Sep 2006 09:17:39
From: bikemh
Subject: bell really needed in Manhattan?

I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
upper east side.

I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
getting a high-priced ticket.

Date: 10 Sep 2006 21:47:05
From: Chris Z The Wheelman
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Technically, South Carolina has a similar law, and some bike
organizations are trying to get it repealed, if for no other reason that
a bell is pretty much useless except perhaps on a bike path or trail (I
do have one on my MTB).

I have never had one on my road tourer and have yet to be cited in the
five years I've ridden here. Most cops are ignorant of the _important_
laws regarding bicycling (the number of wrong way riders on the roads
prove this nicely).

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Date: 05 Sep 2006 18:47:51
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Claire Petersky wrote:

> Uh huh. Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is it so
> evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when cars do it?

By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
when that traffic has a green light? Personally, it doesn't matter to
me whether the corkers are on two wheels or four. Unless they are:
1- emergency vehicles,
2- a funeral procession,
3- a parade with the proper permits
I don't excuse or accept their behavior whether they are in a car or on
a bike and I don't know any reasonable person that does.
If by "corking" you're referring to the inconsiderate jerks that think
there's some unwritten "10 second rule" governing left turns ("The
light turned red less than 10 seconds ago so I can still enter the
intersection and make my left turn. Those people with the green will
just have to wait."), when I was in patrol I ticketed them every chance
I had even if it meant making a u-turn to go after them.

>
> Also, today I realized that one of the valuable services I provide by biking
> is traffic calming. I guess that's another way to say, "creating traffic
> jams". Most of my non-trail commute is on minor arterials and city streets
> where the speed limit is 25 mph. By pedaling along, I am performing a
> valuable service to the residents of that street and many of the other road
> users by slowing down drivers. Even if I'm on a wide curb lane or shoulder,
> they'll often slow to pass.
>

Careful, Claire. You're making it sound as if not every driver is a
homicidal maniac out there searching for a cyclist to run over.
Implying that could get you labeled a nutcase. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 10 Sep 2006 17:48:23
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:
>
> Ok,
> That one pegs my 'Weird-ometer". I have never heard of a nut job like
> that before. I sleep in my birthday suit but I would certainly grab
> something before running out the door even with a fire.
> It seems there are more nut cases than I realized.
> This will certainly make me have a more open mind.
> Bill Baka

It may sound weird but I've learned since then that if you discount
insurance fraud and revenge arsons, most arsons have a definite sexual
motivation. That's a very big reason that, except for those seeking
revenge for an injury whether real or imagined, arsonists are
overwhelmingly male. Females are overrepresented in revenge arsons
though so it all kind of evens out. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 11 Sep 2006 06:40:53
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Ok,
>> That one pegs my 'Weird-ometer". I have never heard of a nut job like
>> that before. I sleep in my birthday suit but I would certainly grab
>> something before running out the door even with a fire.
>> It seems there are more nut cases than I realized.
>> This will certainly make me have a more open mind.
>> Bill Baka
>
> It may sound weird but I've learned since then that if you discount
> insurance fraud and revenge arsons, most arsons have a definite sexual
> motivation. That's a very big reason that, except for those seeking
> revenge for an injury whether real or imagined, arsonists are
> overwhelmingly male. Females are overrepresented in revenge arsons
> though so it all kind of evens out. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
Sexual motivation? To start a fire? Is that why the profile of an
arsonist includes hanging around to watch the fire?
Bill (scratching my head) Baka

Date: 05 Sep 2006 22:14:35
From: Don Wiss
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On 5 Sep 2006 18:47:51 -0700, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com > wrote:

>By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
>intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
>when that traffic has a green light?

I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.

Don <www.donwiss.com > (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Date: 06 Sep 2006 05:50:24
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

"Don Wiss" <donwiss@no_spam.com > wrote in message
news:qhbsf2h3onjkk417hms7i95csi4cbdi0du@4ax.com...
> On 5 Sep 2006 18:47:51 -0700, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
>>intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
>>when that traffic has a green light?
>
> I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
> can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
> stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
> gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

I think the problem is there is a small percentage (2%?) of the CM folks who
are intentionally out there looking for trouble.
They carry knives or other weapons, and if anyone dares to cross their
imaginary line, they explode into anger and mayhem.
I see them as deliberately blocking traffic and impeding the traffic flow,
in order to get an aggressive driver to lose their temper or patience.
These two percenters tend to use the rest of the "more or less innocent" CM
riders as cover. Almost like rioters hiding in a mob.
Most cities have ordinances or laws about parades and licenses or permits
are needed to stage such events.
Usually CM folks can't get permits so they usually ignore the laws. Thus it
automatically sets the scene for mass ticketing and arrests.
It hasn't happened yet, but it is only a matter of time before some idiot
motorist loses their temper and runs down a number of CM cyclists and kills
someone.
When that happens the CM groups will become paraiahs as far as all the city
governments are concerned.

I feel the CM groups should have come to a agreement with the cities and get
permits as needed and have police and others there to control traffic for a
more safe and orderly event.
Sort of like a downtown organized ride charity event.
Dallas Texas has a orderly ride like this once a year in the spring. The 40
mile ride goes all over the downtown and surrounding area. It is a nice fun
event and motorists get to see several thousand cyclists on the roads and
streets too.
That would allow for a much more positive outcome between cyclists and
motorists.

Date: 11 Sep 2006 22:39:53
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:

> Sexual motivation? To start a fire? Is that why the profile of an
> arsonist includes hanging around to watch the fire?
> Bill (scratching my head) Baka

To answer your questions- yes, yes, and yes. But this is getting
awfully far afield, even by RBM standards.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 12 Sep 2006 08:36:41
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Sexual motivation? To start a fire? Is that why the profile of an
>> arsonist includes hanging around to watch the fire?
>> Bill (scratching my head) Baka
>
> To answer your questions- yes, yes, and yes. But this is getting
> awfully far afield, even by RBM standards.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
Yeah,
At least I got out on the bike today but California is still HOT. It was
95 degrees when I went out and now I long for the wet season. I still
have to use the mountain bike to go off road and avoid getting flattened
by all the semis. No road bike worthy areas around here.
<sigh >
Bill Baka

Date: 12 Sep 2006 05:43:27
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On 11 Sep 2006 22:39:53 -0700, "Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com > wrote:

>Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Sexual motivation? To start a fire? Is that why the profile of an
>> arsonist includes hanging around to watch the fire?
>> Bill (scratching my head) Baka
>
>To answer your questions- yes, yes, and yes. But this is getting
>awfully far afield, even by RBM standards.
>
>Regards,
>Bob Hunt

Far afield? I don't know, has Baka checked in on this thread and
opined with an 800 word dissertation?

Date: 06 Sep 2006 13:53:55
From: Kristian M Zoerhoff
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

In article <JZWdnegZN_NzOmPZnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@comcast.com >,
earlwbollinger@comcast.net says...
>
> It hasn't happened yet, but it is only a matter of time before some idiot
> motorist loses their temper and runs down a number of CM cyclists and kills
> someone.

This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:

<http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304 >
OR
<http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp >

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)

Date: 05 Sep 2006 14:25:47
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Dane Buson wrote:
> landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
> > which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
> > and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,
>
> Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
> Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
> affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
> interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
> courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
> a reasonably pace.

Chicago's Mass is what it was. I was embarrassed by it to be honest. It
brought traffic to a halt in the center of the city and really wasted a
lot of motorists time. Tried it twice to see if I experienced a bad
one. Nope, just as bad as the first. The real dickheads are probably
only 10% of the riders, but the damage they do to cyclists rep is
amazing. I hope the cops find a way to prevent future CMs, as they're
really an illegal parade. Folks can meet, greet, and admire bikes in a
more respectful way than riding around with a bionic-hippie's sense of
self entitlement.

Date: 04 Sep 2006 23:24:12
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Date: 04 Sep 2006 10:58:22
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

jym@econet.org wrote:
> =v= Read this:
>
> http://www.cars-suck.org/blog/2005/11/many_a_true_word_spoken_in_jes.html
>
> My take is that, unless you are on a greenway or unless you've got
> one of those really loud bells that sounds like an old phone ringing,
> nobody's going to hear you in Manhattan. On the other hands, cops
> do their stupid ticket blitzes from time to time over bullshit
> violations like that.
> <_Jym_>

I'm all for cracking down on bikes that get ridden on public streets.
I wouldn't require lights mounted during the day, but if you want to
share the road, then requiring two brakes or one on a fix, a sounding
device, and front and rear lighting at night is fair enough.
Enforcement needs to be consistent. I've been out with friends in
Gothenburg at night and stuck w/o lighting on my ride. They made me
ride close between them to stay safe. As much fun as we were having,
bicycle safety was no afterthought or joking matter. Americans want to
solve the bike safety problem with helmets, which are effective for
some accident to be sure, but they'd be much better served by altering
behavior.

This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,
are not going to do a thing to promote more ridership. Of course there
exists a right to assemble, but there's no right in the American
constitution to tie up traffic and cause motorists to idle and use more
gas, to make some sort of bizarre political point. That's right
Massers--your little displays of conceit actually cause more emissions.

/rant

Date: 05 Sep 2006 08:52:23
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
> which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
> and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,

Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
a reasonably pace.

> are not going to do a thing to promote more ridership. Of course there
> exists a right to assemble, but there's no right in the American
> constitution to tie up traffic and cause motorists to idle and use more
> gas, to make some sort of bizarre political point. That's right
> Massers--your little displays of conceit actually cause more emissions.

To mangle an old phrase, there's more than one road to Rome. Mass
never really had a huge amount of appeal to me, and obviously not to
you. But some people get quite a bit out of it, and probably ride more
as a result.

Do some people use it as an excuse to be jerks? I'm sure they do. On
the other hand, they'd probably be out being wankers elsewhere if they
weren't there.

As to tying up traffic, I don't really have much sympathy with car
traffic jams. If it wasn't mass there would something else next week
tying up traffic. [1] If one doesn't want to be stuck in traffic, one
should probably give up driving entirely and move somewhere with a good
urban rail system.

[1] I live near two stadiums. I know all about event traffic.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Remember kids, don't do crack, it's a ghetto drug"
- Bob Roberts

Date: 10 Sep 2006 12:16:26
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:

> I have to agree that in the heat of the moment things do get remembered
> wrong sometimes, but I still am not going for the cop arresting the
> victim for wanting him to do his job. Disobeying an officer? Was he just
> supposed to go home and forget about it? Maybe the officer in question
> should be assigned bicycle patrol for about 3 months and see what his
> opinion is then???
> Bill Baka

Bill, it's apparent that you are simply accepting the blogger's
statement, "I was the victim", at face value. Perhaps you are never
going to realize (or at least admit) that not everyone that claims to
be or appears to be a victim *is* a victim.
Case in point-
Almost 20 years ago when I was still fairly new on the job I happened
to be on the scene of a house fire when a naked man came running out of
the house that was rapidly filling with smoke. Giving him a blanket and
putting him in an ambulance seemed the humane thing to do but an older
cop on the scene grabbed him, cuffed him, and threw him in the back of
his squad car. Anyone seeing that would have likely thought as I did-
"What an asshole!"- until the older cop explained, "That house has been
abandoned for months. Homeless squatters as a rule don't sleep in the
nude. Firebugs that like to start fires so they can watch the pretty
flames while they masturbate sometimes unintentionally let the fire get
a little out of control since they are kinda busy. Call it a heat of
the moment kind of thing."
The firemen found the guy's clothes folded neatly by the door. Right
next to the two empty cans of charcoal starter fluid.
What's obvious is always obvious but it's not always true.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 10 Sep 2006 20:45:39
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> I have to agree that in the heat of the moment things do get remembered
>> wrong sometimes, but I still am not going for the cop arresting the
>> victim for wanting him to do his job. Disobeying an officer? Was he just
>> supposed to go home and forget about it? Maybe the officer in question
>> should be assigned bicycle patrol for about 3 months and see what his
>> opinion is then???
>> Bill Baka
>
> Bill, it's apparent that you are simply accepting the blogger's
> statement, "I was the victim", at face value. Perhaps you are never
> going to realize (or at least admit) that not everyone that claims to
> be or appears to be a victim *is* a victim.

That much I do know, but that is usually a domestic violence kind of
thing. Wife hits husband, he reacts, she calls police. It can happen
with two strangers on the street too, but I have been on the receiving
end of many red necks and teenagers-twenty somethings yelling, honking,
or just speeding up to see if they could scare me into a ditch. I tend
to be on the side of the cyclist.
> Case in point-
> Almost 20 years ago when I was still fairly new on the job I happened
> to be on the scene of a house fire when a naked man came running out of
> the house that was rapidly filling with smoke. Giving him a blanket and
> putting him in an ambulance seemed the humane thing to do but an older
> cop on the scene grabbed him, cuffed him, and threw him in the back of
> his squad car. Anyone seeing that would have likely thought as I did-
> "What an asshole!"- until the older cop explained, "That house has been
> abandoned for months. Homeless squatters as a rule don't sleep in the
> nude. Firebugs that like to start fires so they can watch the pretty
> flames while they masturbate sometimes unintentionally let the fire get
> a little out of control since they are kinda busy. Call it a heat of
> the moment kind of thing."
> The firemen found the guy's clothes folded neatly by the door. Right
> next to the two empty cans of charcoal starter fluid.
> What's obvious is always obvious but it's not always true.

Ok,
That one pegs my 'Weird-ometer". I have never heard of a nut job like
that before. I sleep in my birthday suit but I would certainly grab
something before running out the door even with a fire.
It seems there are more nut cases than I realized.
This will certainly make me have a more open mind.
Bill Baka
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>

Date: 06 Sep 2006 00:42:04
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

"Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu > wrote in message
news:n2j0t3-o2h.ln1@zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
>> which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
>> and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,
>
> Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
> Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
> affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
> interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
> courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
> a reasonably pace.

And I wonder how much one affects the other. In other words, has the mellow
police response to CM meant that those who are attracted to CM are similarly
mellow? And the hard-core response of the NYC police means that the only
folks who would want to come to CM are defiant and anarchistic?

> As to tying up traffic, I don't really have much sympathy with car
> traffic jams.

Uh huh. Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is it so
evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when cars do it?

Also, today I realized that one of the valuable services I provide by biking
is traffic calming. I guess that's another way to say, "creating traffic
jams". Most of my non-trail commute is on minor arterials and city streets
where the speed limit is 25 mph. By pedaling along, I am performing a
valuable service to the residents of that street and many of the other road
users by slowing down drivers. Even if I'm on a wide curb lane or shoulder,
they'll often slow to pass.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Date: 06 Sep 2006 00:52:04
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Claire Petersky wrote:

> Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is
> it so evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when
> cars do it?

Because car drivers don't /intentionally/ disrupt traffic flows and cause
delays.

How would you feel about car drivers purposely blocking a charity bike ride
event or century just to make a point about rude or dangerous riders
encountered now and then?

Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:57:31
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

In article <1157346141.698258.315330@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
jym@econet.org writes:
> =v= Read this:
>
> http://www.cars-suck.org/blog/2005/11/many_a_true_word_spoken_in_jes.html
>
> My take is that, unless you are on a greenway or unless you've got
> one of those really loud bells that sounds like an old phone ringing,
> nobody's going to hear you in Manhattan.

The sound doesn't have to be loud to be noticable -- just incongruous
and out of the ordinary.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:02:21
From:
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

=v= Read this:

http://www.cars-suck.org/blog/2005/11/many_a_true_word_spoken_in_jes.html

My take is that, unless you are on a greenway or unless you've got
one of those really loud bells that sounds like an old phone ringing,
nobody's going to hear you in Manhattan. On the other hands, cops
do their stupid ticket blitzes from time to time over bullshit
violations like that.
<_Jym_ >

Date: 09 Sep 2006 14:14:56
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > Bill Baka wrote:
> >
> >> Bob,
> >> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
> >
> > ---snip---
> >
> >> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.
> >
> >> Bill Baka
> >
> > So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
> > prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bob Hunt
> >
> Touche,
> But you are probably biased by being part of the system. I am not bad
> mouthing you, but sometimes when you are in the middle of it and
> isolated from what goes on outside your turf, you really don't know.
> I have seen some very good officers, but way too many that think the
> badge and gun makes them God.
> Bill Baka

Of course I'm biased. We all are in one way or another. Recognizing
that basic law of human nature is the first step toward objectivity.
It's also all the more reason to not rely on any single person's
version of an event when evaluating that event.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 10 Sep 2006 03:02:33
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob,
>>>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>>> ---snip---
>>>
>>>> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.
>>>> Bill Baka
>>> So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
>>> prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Bob Hunt
>>>
>> Touche,
>> But you are probably biased by being part of the system. I am not bad
>> mouthing you, but sometimes when you are in the middle of it and
>> isolated from what goes on outside your turf, you really don't know.
>> I have seen some very good officers, but way too many that think the
>> badge and gun makes them God.
>> Bill Baka
>
> Of course I'm biased. We all are in one way or another. Recognizing
> that basic law of human nature is the first step toward objectivity.
> It's also all the more reason to not rely on any single person's
> version of an event when evaluating that event.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
I have to agree that in the heat of the moment things do get remembered
wrong sometimes, but I still am not going for the cop arresting the
victim for wanting him to do his job. Disobeying an officer? Was he just
supposed to go home and forget about it? Maybe the officer in question
should be assigned bicycle patrol for about 3 months and see what his
opinion is then???
Bill Baka

Date: 03 Sep 2006 18:45:16
From: Ron Wallenfang
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

I have bells on my bikes. They are useful on trails that you share with
pedestrians, skateboarders, etc., somewhat useful on roads with lots of bike
traffic, and not very useful on other roads. Some pedestrians have loud
radio bugs in their ears and don't hear anything; most react favorably to
bells, somewhat moreso than to voice warnings.

I'm from Milwaukee and have done limited riding in NYC. Bells were
certainly useful on the Hudson River trail and the Brooklyn bridge.

"bikemh" <rep3045@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1157127459.698096.138870@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
> want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
> upper east side.
>
> I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
> bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
> get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
> getting a high-priced ticket.
>

Date: 04 Sep 2006 13:11:08
From: Stephen Harding
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Ron Wallenfang wrote:
> I have bells on my bikes. They are useful on trails that you share with
> pedestrians, skateboarders, etc., somewhat useful on roads with lots of bike
> traffic, and not very useful on other roads. Some pedestrians have loud
> radio bugs in their ears and don't hear anything; most react favorably to
> bells, somewhat moreso than to voice warnings.

I agree totally. All four of my bikes have bells, and I get
quite a few people responding very favorably when I ring a
warning rather than the usual "on your left", which can often
result in the person going left!

At least if they don't understand what the noise is, they stop
or turn to see what's going on behind them.

I actually like the single "dinger" but it gets muffled too
much when I wear gloves during colder seasons. The "ringer"
works better overall, although I would prefer the simple "ding
ding" better.

SMH

Date: 02 Sep 2006 20:20:59
From: Fritz
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On 1 Sep 2006 09:17:39 -0700, "bikemh" <rep3045@aol.com > wrote:

>I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
>want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
>upper east side.
>
>I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
>bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
>get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
>getting a high-priced ticket.

On my Steel Surly Pacer I just snap the brake cable on the top tube
and it rings like a boat bell.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 20:40:13
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

"bikemh" <rep3045@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1157127459.698096.138870@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
> want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
> upper east side.
>
> I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
> bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
> get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
> getting a high-priced ticket.
>

I have a cute little ding type of bell I put on my MTB.
On my roadster I have a big bell with a mult-iring handle actuator and it is
great.
I think they are a hoot. Good conversation starter too.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 21:15:17
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:40:13 -0500, "Earl Bollinger"
<earlwbollinger@comcast.net > wrote:

>I have a cute little ding type of bell I put on my MTB.

Someone described those as "pathetic 'ping' bells". Certainly the one
I have fits into that category.

Date: 16 Sep 2006 19:04:50
From:
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Earl Bollinger wrote:

> I think the problem is there is a small percentage (2%?) of the
> CM folks who are intentionally out there looking for trouble.
> They carry knives or other weapons, and if anyone dares to cross
> their imaginary line, they explode into anger and mayhem.

=v= I have never heard of knives or weapons being used in CM.
Where do you get this scenario from?
<_Jym_ >

Date: 08 Sep 2006 05:27:20
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:

> .... I see
> no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
> for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
> run driver just re-enforces my point.

You continue to miss and unintentionally reinforce my point. The
blogger's assertions/opinions as to what happened are just one version
of events and should be viewed with a grain of salt just as the
involved driver's version should. The accounts of even presumably
unbiased witnesses to any event often differ. That's why it's best to
withhold judgement of any disputed event until one is familiar with as
many versions of the event as practical. It's called being neutral and
fair. In the present instance, you've leapt to a conclusion based
entirely on the assertions of *one* involved party. IOW, you're doing
exactly what you accuse the cops of- taking sides based on personal
bias. You'd make a lousy cop and a worse judge.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> .... I see
>> no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
>> for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
>> run driver just re-enforces my point.
>
> You continue to miss and unintentionally reinforce my point. The
> blogger's assertions/opinions as to what happened are just one version
> of events and should be viewed with a grain of salt just as the
> involved driver's version should. The accounts of even presumably
> unbiased witnesses to any event often differ. That's why it's best to
> withhold judgement of any disputed event until one is familiar with as
> many versions of the event as practical. It's called being neutral and
> fair. In the present instance, you've leapt to a conclusion based
> entirely on the assertions of *one* involved party. IOW, you're doing
> exactly what you accuse the cops of- taking sides based on personal
> bias. You'd make a lousy cop and a worse judge.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
Bob,
I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
commuter in my car.
Corrupt.
I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
the officer demanded he k is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
Corrupt #2.
When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
jail time.
Corrupt D.A.
Example of corrupt judge and police together.
Locally, we had a judge who would hand down as much jail time as
possible to anyone who came before him. Off work he was one of the worst
offenders, yet every time he was pulled over the local police would
either escort him home, or drive him home, free gratis. It was well
known among the locals and he is no longer a judge, and I haven't
checked why.
Corrupt Judge and P.D. (s).
Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.
You are too isolated by being part of the system.
Real life has told me that the "LAW" is as self serving as most politicians.
Bill Baka

Date: 09 Sep 2006 06:27:16
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:

>Bob,
>I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>commuter in my car.
>Corrupt.

So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
impossibilty in court?

>I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>the officer demanded he k is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>Corrupt #2.
>When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>jail time.
>Corrupt D.A.

This is far fetched and stretches the imagination. If this alleged
incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
oath in court.

Date: 09 Sep 2006 18:14:00
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

R Brickston wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>> I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>> setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>> speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>> commuter in my car.
>> Corrupt.
>
> So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
> impossibilty in court?

I did that once when a cop singled me out of a line of cars making a
left turn to go to a junk yard in 1966. That was standard practice and
happened all day long. The cop hinted (under his breath) that he wanted
to make sure to get teenagers to give them respect for the law. It had
the opposite effect. I stood out there and took a whole roll of picture
of cars, sometimes convoys, crossing that line and the judge refused to
look at them, telling me that, "So what, they were breaking the law,
too". Then why the hell did that sorry assed excuse for a cop single me
out? Because I was a teen and least likely to get a lawyer. When I said
not guilty and I wanted a trial with a lawyer he said "sorry, you can't
have a trial over a traffic ticket so I find you 'Guilty'".
I sure gained a LOT of respect for the law that day. Like shit.
>
>> I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>> driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>> the officer demanded he k is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>> Corrupt #2.
>> When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>> bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>> jail time.
>> Corrupt D.A.
>
> This is far fetched and stretches the imagination.

Everything stretches your feeble imagination, doofus.

If this alleged
> incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
> oath in court.

Requiring a lawyer, most of whom want about $2,000 up front just to talk
to you, much less do the leg work for a traffic ticket. If I had $5K to
blow I might have, but that was during one of my work droughts. Soon
after I got a much better job up in the wine country and never saw
another Santa Clara cop. I won't drive down there now unless somebody I
know dies or I have a 6 figure job offer, High 6 figure.
Bill Baka

>

Date: 09 Sep 2006 19:08:09
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:14:00 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com > wrote:

>R Brickston wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> Bob,
>>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>>> I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>>> setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>>> speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>>> commuter in my car.
>>> Corrupt.
>>
>> So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
>> impossibilty in court?
>
>I did that once when a cop singled me out of a line of cars making a
>left turn to go to a junk yard in 1966. That was standard practice and
>happened all day long. The cop hinted (under his breath) that he wanted
>to make sure to get teenagers to give them respect for the law. It had
>the opposite effect. I stood out there and took a whole roll of picture
>of cars, sometimes convoys, crossing that line and the judge refused to
>look at them, telling me that, "So what, they were breaking the law,
>too". Then why the hell did that sorry assed excuse for a cop single me
>out? Because I was a teen and least likely to get a lawyer. When I said
>not guilty and I wanted a trial with a lawyer he said "sorry, you can't
>have a trial over a traffic ticket so I find you 'Guilty'".
>I sure gained a LOT of respect for the law that day. Like shit.

Those things always have to be taken to the next court. Probably not
an option for a teenager, but with patience, since you claim to have a
132+ IQ, it could have been done.

>>
>>> I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>>> driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>>> the officer demanded he k is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>>> Corrupt #2.
>>> When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>>> bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>>> jail time.
>>> Corrupt D.A.
>>
>> This is far fetched and stretches the imagination.
>
>Everything stretches your feeble imagination, doofus.

Who you calling "doofus," Doofus. In any event the only things that
stretch the imagination are those events that occur on Planet Baka.

>
>If this alleged
>> incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
>> oath in court.
>
>Requiring a lawyer, most of whom want about $2,000 up front just to talk
>to you, much less do the leg work for a traffic ticket. If I had $5K to
>blow I might have, but that was during one of my work droughts. Soon
>after I got a much better job up in the wine country and never saw
>another Santa Clara cop. I won't drive down there now unless somebody I
>know dies or I have a 6 figure job offer, High 6 figure.
>Bill Baka
>

If your story is true, after all it is an event that took place on
Planet Baka, you file a subpoena for the tech to appear, prior to the
court date. Then, the tech has a career decision to make, he either
lies under oath or tells the DA what actually happened, if the latter,
your case gets dropped.

Date: 10 Sep 2006 02:57:48
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

R Brickston wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:14:00 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>
>> R Brickston wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@syix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob wrote:
>>>>> Bill Baka wrote:
>>>> Bob,
>>>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>>>> I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>>>> setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>>>> speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>>>> commuter in my car.
>>>> Corrupt.
>>> So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
>>> impossibilty in court?
>> I did that once when a cop singled me out of a line of cars making a
>> left turn to go to a junk yard in 1966. That was standard practice and
>> happened all day long. The cop hinted (under his breath) that he wanted
>> to make sure to get teenagers to give them respect for the law. It had
>> the opposite effect. I stood out there and took a whole roll of picture
>> of cars, sometimes convoys, crossing that line and the judge refused to
>> look at them, telling me that, "So what, they were breaking the law,
>> too". Then why the hell did that sorry assed excuse for a cop single me
>> out? Because I was a teen and least likely to get a lawyer. When I said
>> not guilty and I wanted a trial with a lawyer he said "sorry, you can't
>> have a trial over a traffic ticket so I find you 'Guilty'".
>> I sure gained a LOT of respect for the law that day. Like shit.
>
> Those things always have to be taken to the next court. Probably not
> an option for a teenager, but with patience, since you claim to have a
> 132+ IQ, it could have been done.

Let's see now. I was about 18, no money, and lawyers cost a whole hell
of a lot to do something like that. Besides, I inquired and was told by
various authorities that in California the traffic judge has the final
say and there is no appeal for an 'infraction'. Legally screwed and not
even kissed. I had a whole roll of pictures and could have taken the
judge out there and shown him on any business day. You know what the
answer would have been? "You can't catch them all.". Selective justice
is corrupt justice. While I was taking the pictures a number of cops
from the same department drove by and just ignored the 'illegal' traffic
flow. That told me a lot about the system, and it hasn't changed much.
>
>>>> I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>>>> driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>>>> the officer demanded he k is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>>>> Corrupt #2.
>>>> When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>>>> bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>>>> jail time.
>>>> Corrupt D.A.
>>> This is far fetched and stretches the imagination.
>> Everything stretches your feeble imagination, doofus.
>
> Who you calling "doofus," Doofus. In any event the only things that
> stretch the imagination are those events that occur on Planet Baka.

It's on record you fucking idiot. I spent my 50'th birthday in traffic
court in Santa Clara, Kalifornia, over that bogus ticket. I know Bob
Hunt could look it up, but why should either of us waste our time on an
obvious MORON/ASSHOLE like YOU.
>
>> If this alleged
>>> incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
>>> oath in court.
>> Requiring a lawyer, most of whom want about $2,000 up front just to talk
>> to you, much less do the leg work for a traffic ticket. If I had $5K to
>> blow I might have, but that was during one of my work droughts. Soon
>> after I got a much better job up in the wine country and never saw
>> another Santa Clara cop. I won't drive down there now unless somebody I
>> know dies or I have a 6 figure job offer, High 6 figure.
>> Bill Baka
>>
>
> If your story is true, after all it is an event that took place on
> Planet Baka, you file a subpoena for the tech to appear, prior to the
> court date. Then, the tech has a career decision to make, he either
> lies under oath or tells the DA what actually happened, if the latter,
> your case gets dropped.

Money, lawyers, more money, etc., ad nauseum. You sure are making me
want to run into you face to face so I could eliminate one asshole from
the face of the earth. If you ever get jail time for anything can I
please be in the same jail? I will show you how to 'Fall in the shower'.
Bill Baka

Date: 07 Sep 2006 18:36:10
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
> >> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
> >>
> >> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
> >> OR
> >> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>
> >
> >
> > Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
> > occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
> > posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
> > attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
> > that the information provided is slanted at best.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bob Hunt
> >
> I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
> supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
> pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
> with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
> arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
> and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
> adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
> way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
> before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
> I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
> Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
> political favors under the table going on there.
> I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
> Bill Baka

Based on your post I think it's safe to assume that- without having
read or heard anything else about the incident or viewing the videotape
(if the blogger was referring to the same incident I'm recalling it was
caught on videotape)- you're ready to accept as gospel one person's
version of events. Of course, I could be wrong since that opinion is
based on just *one* source of information.
BTW, the current Daley is Daley #2. I haven't heard of any #3, etcetera
yet. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 08 Sep 2006 04:33:17
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>>>> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>>>>
>>>> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
>>>> OR
>>>> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>
>>>
>>> Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
>>> occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
>>> posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
>>> attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
>>> that the information provided is slanted at best.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Bob Hunt
>>>
>> I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
>> supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
>> pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
>> with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
>> arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
>> and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
>> adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
>> way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
>> before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
>> I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
>> Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
>> political favors under the table going on there.
>> I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
>> Bill Baka
>
> Based on your post I think it's safe to assume that- without having
> read or heard anything else about the incident or viewing the videotape
> (if the blogger was referring to the same incident I'm recalling it was
> caught on videotape)- you're ready to accept as gospel one person's
> version of events. Of course, I could be wrong since that opinion is
> based on just *one* source of information.
> BTW, the current Daley is Daley #2. I haven't heard of any #3, etcetera
> yet. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
Bob,
It was Daley 'x' when I lived there in the 50's and every time I have
ever asked it was a Daley. #3.Would you notice?
1. I have run into asshole patrol cops in both northern and southern
California, abusing the authority their badge confers on them, and I see
no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
run driver just re-enforces my point.
One of my references that is very well documented is the 1968 Democratic
convention, although it did happen when I was in California. Some police
I have approached just for information were hostile to me here in
California, as if I was interrupting their ticket stake out. Once around
1982 I had a car stolen (Down payment and I never saw the guy again) and
it was found in San Jose after being in multiple collisions. When I went
to the S.J.P.D. headquarters I asked to see the car to determine whether
to tell them to junk it or to get it out. The desk officer refused and
when I asked to see his supervisor as to why he threatened me with
immediate arrest for arguing with a cop. Ever wonder why they were
called PIGS? Some of them have no business even giving out parking tickets.
Bill Baka

Date: 06 Sep 2006 18:09:50
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>
> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>
> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
> OR
> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>

Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
that the information provided is slanted at best.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 07 Sep 2006 05:11:17
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>>
>> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
>> OR
>> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>
>
>
> Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
> occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
> posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
> attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
> that the information provided is slanted at best.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
political favors under the table going on there.
I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
Bill Baka

Date: 06 Sep 2006 06:40:31
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Don Wiss wrote:

>
> I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
> can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
> stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
> gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.
>

There being a certain percentage of jerks in any population, I don't
doubt that happens sometimes. What I doubt is that it happens *all* of
the time and the offending drivers are *never* ticketed although I can
understand that it might seem that way. We're getting far afield
though.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:57:41
From: Earl Bollinger
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

"Andrew Price" <ajprice@free.fr > wrote in message
news:70mjf2571fo06lb8rsj98is82rc5j8f60m@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:40:13 -0500, "Earl Bollinger"
> <earlwbollinger@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I have a cute little ding type of bell I put on my MTB.
>
> Someone described those as "pathetic 'ping' bells". Certainly the one
> I have fits into that category.

"pathetic ping bell" that is a interesting name for them.
I never heard of that before.

Bells are interesting, it seems nowadays when you use one the people have a
tendency to turn around to look at you and veer off in front of you.
Plus some people seem to jump out of their skins when you roll up on them
and ring the bell.
I guess the English are st enough to know what to do.

Date: 03 Sep 2006 16:49:59
From:
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Earl Bollinger <earlwbollinger@comcast.net > wrote:

> Bells are interesting, it seems nowadays when you use one the people have a
> tendency to turn around to look at you and veer off in front of you.
> Plus some people seem to jump out of their skins when you roll up on them
> and ring the bell.

On the main multi-use trail that I like to use, which fortunately is
mostly away from noise, I use my brake levers to warn pedestrians that I'm
coming. Give 'em a slight pull inward, not enough to slow the bike, and
then let my fingers slip off so that they flip back with a clanking noise.
Works as well as a bell, and better than hollering "on yer left" at times.

Bill

__o

Date: 08 Sep 2006 20:07:30
From: Bob
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bill Baka wrote:

> Bob,
> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.

---snip---

> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.

> Bill Baka

So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 09 Sep 2006 03:57:49
From: Bill Baka
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>
> ---snip---
>
>> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.
>
>> Bill Baka
>
> So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
> prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>
Touche,
But you are probably biased by being part of the system. I am not bad
mouthing you, but sometimes when you are in the middle of it and
isolated from what goes on outside your turf, you really don't know.
I have seen some very good officers, but way too many that think the
badge and gun makes them God.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:33:37
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

In article <edf13n$dkh$1@news.xmission.com >, D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch
wrote:

> On the main multi-use trail that I like to use, which fortunately is
> mostly away from noise, I use my brake levers to warn pedestrians that I'm
> coming. Give 'em a slight pull inward, not enough to slow the bike, and
> then let my fingers slip off so that they flip back with a clanking noise.
> Works as well as a bell, and better than hollering "on yer left" at times.

Not quite adequate when their brain is flooded b/n too iPod buds. :)
--

Date: 04 Sep 2006 05:39:53
From:
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
> In article <edf13n$dkh$1@news.xmission.com>, D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch
> wrote:

> > On the main multi-use trail that I like to use, which fortunately is
> > mostly away from noise, I use my brake levers to warn pedestrians that I'm
> > coming. Give 'em a slight pull inward, not enough to slow the bike, and
> > then let my fingers slip off so that they flip back with a clanking noise.
> > Works as well as a bell, and better than hollering "on yer left" at times.

> Not quite adequate when their brain is flooded b/n too iPod buds. :)

YMMV, but when I do it, it usually works.

Bill

-----------------------------------------------------

Date: 02 Sep 2006 06:09:18
From:
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Earl Bollinger <earlwbollinger@comcast.net > wrote:

> I have a cute little ding type of bell I put on my MTB.
> On my roadster I have a big bell with a mult-iring handle actuator and it is
> great.

Every time I hear one of those I get the urge to say, "Good morning,
Mr. Leach, have we had a busy day?"

Bill in Utah, Faking It

__o

Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:35:25
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Tom Keats wrote:

> Someone mentioned mounting a bell on the stem.

I did, and it works great on quill stem bikes with drop bars:
http://tinyurl.com/lk8es

My utility bike with flat bars has a chrome mini bell up top and proud
next to the shifter.

>
> Speaking of archaic bicycle laws, there was a time in some
> jurisdictions when the bottom portions of rear bicycle fenders were
> required to be coloured white, or to have a white stripe there.

I've had a couple old bikes like that, and my old Nexus hubbed city
bike got a white stripe painted onto the aluminum fender for that retro
look.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:04:22
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

In article <1157127459.698096.138870@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"bikemh" <rep3045@aol.com > writes:
> I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
> want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
> upper east side.
>
> I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
> bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
> get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
> getting a high-priced ticket.

If the wording of the law says "audible signaling device" or
something to that effect, I'd think one's own voice could
fill that bill.

But you might be surprised -- a bell really can be useful at times.

I have a Cateye Super Mini, myself. It's quite discrete & dainty.
It's diameter isn't much more than the thickness of an handlebar,
so I've got my bell mounted facing back (toward me.) That way it's
hardly noticable, so I'm less uncomfortable with the shame of having
a bell on my bike, and it doesn't distract from the rubber bulb horn
audaciously occupying the other side of the handlebar :-)

Someone mentioned mounting a bell on the stem. I guess that would
work, but I've got my bell mounted near where my left hand usually
is, so I can actuate it with just a flick of the thumb, instead of
fumbling around for it, only to find it when the need is long past
(or passed.)

Speaking of archaic bicycle laws, there was a time in some
jurisdictions when the bottom portions of rear bicycle fenders were
required to be coloured white, or to have a white stripe there.
That was back when bikes & fenders were mostly coloured black, most
bikes had two speeds (go and stop) and Jobst Brandt was a kid :-)

You can still see those "border collie tail" fenders in old
photos & movies, and on some vintage bicycles.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 01 Sep 2006 15:23:01
From: Solomander
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

Date: 01 Sep 2006 23:07:09
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

In article <1157149381.362203.46840@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
"Solomander" <Solomander@aol.com > wrote:

> I work in Manhattan. You would be the first cyclist that I ever saw
> with a bell.

It's hard to see the details when two subjects pass each other at great
speed! ;)
--

Date: 01 Sep 2006 18:46:47
From: Don Wiss
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

On 1 Sep 2006 15:23:01 -0700, Solomander <Solomander@aol.com > wrote:

>bikemh wrote:

>> I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
>> bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
>> get one, which I would never use again.

This I don't understand. Why would you never use it again? Even if you come
from a place which doesn't require them, which is unlikely, they are useful
to have.

>I work in Manhattan. You would be the first cyclist that I ever saw
>with a bell.

You certainly aren't looking very hard. Plenty of NYC cyclists have them.

Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides > (e-mail link at page bottom).

Date: 01 Sep 2006 12:36:33
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bell really needed in Manhattan?

bikemh wrote:
> I plan to be in Manhattan this weekend, and have never biked there. I
> want to go for a quick 10 mile ride on Sunday morning, starting at the
> upper east side.
>
> I've read that technically the law requires it, but do I really need a
> bell or horn? I'd rather not spend part of today going to some store to
> get one, which I would never use again. OTOH, I don't want to risk
> getting a high-priced ticket.

What are you doing riding a bike without a bell? Sheer lunacy! LOL Get
a little stem mounted mini, you'll be amazed at how handy it is, and
you can ring it just for thrills. FWIW, all the serious roadies, not
the poseurs, around these parts are bell users. They're on all my bikes
whether or not they're light single speeds, or full featured urban
schleppers.