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Main
Date: 08 Jul 2007 14:37:25
From: Tom Keats
Subject: cyclist/driver relations
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I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
proceeds on his merry way.
So here's my comment:
I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
I should. It's really not a good thing when
what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
like that.
BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
to signal /to/, who can use the information.
I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
matter of course to use 'em.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 07:43:09
From: SlowRider
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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On Jul 8, 4:10 pm, Mark Shroyer <usenet-m...@markshroyer.com > wrote:
> Amen. On the other hand (or the same one?), I used to ride with
> someone who would wave thankfully at cars who yielded to his right
> of way at intersections. I always wanted to ask him whether he was
> surprised when drivers decided against ignoring him and running him
> over.
I try to remember to do this. And yes, it is because in many
situations I am surprised that a driver had the "patience" to wait an
extra ~5 seconds for me. It is also because I try to create goodwill
with these large, heavy, powerful, often aggressive, beasts known as
"motor vehicles".
- JR
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 06:02:05
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
Tom Keats wrote:
>
>
> So here's my comment:
> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
> I should. It's really not a good thing when
> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
> Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
> out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
> battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
> like that.
>
> BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
> to signal /to/, who can use the information.
>
>
I've gotten in the habit of giving hand turn signals as often as
possible, when it's practical, since I am not aways able to see everyone
who might see the signal. I also give an all fingers extended wave when
a driver does something courteous like letting me pass first through an
intersection when they don't have to. Where I ride, nearly every day, I
almost always interact with a lot of cars, so I figure it can't hurt.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 23:23:30
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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In article <1183946216.815789.314550@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
frkrygow@gmail.com writes:
> On Jul 8, 5:37 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>>
>> So here's my comment:
>> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
>> I should. It's really not a good thing when
>> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
>> Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
>> out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
>> battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
>> like that.
>
> Oh, I don't have any problem with a little excess gratitude. "Thank
> you"s are one of those things that make things nicer in all societies.
I like it too.
It's just too bad that it has to be for
something so run-of-the-mill.
It's really a sort of bittersweet thing, when drivers
are more apprehensive about cyclists than they are
about their fellow drivers, and are so surpised when
we do something right. But, considering the antics
of so many riders, I can't blame 'em.
cheers, & thank you for not shooting any sea lions,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 19:14:14
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
In article <1393390khlg7q13@news.supernews.com >,
"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>:: I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
>:: down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
>:: Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
>:: Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
>:: of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
>:: his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
>:: He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
>:: turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
>:: and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
>:: proceeds on his merry way.
>::
>
> You should be happy that he acknowledged you instead of finding something
> else to bitch about on usenet.
I /am/ happy about it. I got a big warm fuzzy
from it all. I like it when people on the streets
and roads can be friendly with each other, and
make it work. That's how it should be -- co-operative
instead of competitive.
I'm not bitching about anything. I'm just remarking
in my underhanded way that drivers are too often
trepidatious about cyclists, 'cuz too often we don't
properly communicate with them on the road.
In one way I guess that's a good thing -- it tends to
make some drivers more careful around cyclists.
But that's /special/ treatment, and I ain't any more
(or any less) special than any driver. And I'm
certainly not out there to f*** up the traffic flow.
On the contrary, as a part of the Traffic Collective
myself, my goal is to do my part to keep the traffic
flowing smoothly for everybody. There's nothing
special about that. And if somebody expresses their
appreciation for my doing that, that's fine 'n dandy,
but they don't gotta. It just shouldn't be so unusual
for a street-user to conform to the rules of the road.
Unfortunately, it /is/ so unusual. And that works
against us.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 23:11:40
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
Tom Keats wrote:
:: In article <1393390khlg7q13@news.supernews.com >,
:: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > writes:
::: Tom Keats wrote:
::::: I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
::::: down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
::::: Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
::::: Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
::::: of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
::::: his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
::::: He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
::::: turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
::::: and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
::::: proceeds on his merry way.
:::::
:::
::: You should be happy that he acknowledged you instead of finding
::: something else to bitch about on usenet.
::
:: I /am/ happy about it. I got a big warm fuzzy
:: from it all. I like it when people on the streets
:: and roads can be friendly with each other, and
:: make it work. That's how it should be -- co-operative
:: instead of competitive.
::
:: I'm not bitching about anything. I'm just remarking
:: in my underhanded way that drivers are too often
:: trepidatious about cyclists, 'cuz too often we don't
:: properly communicate with them on the road.
::
:: In one way I guess that's a good thing -- it tends to
:: make some drivers more careful around cyclists.
::
:: But that's /special/ treatment, and I ain't any more
:: (or any less) special than any driver.
Special? You're certainly less protected than someone in a car and thus
drivers should pay a little extra attention and use a little more care than
they would if driving near another caged and thus protected person.
And I'm
:: certainly not out there to f*** up the traffic flow.
:: On the contrary, as a part of the Traffic Collective
:: myself, my goal is to do my part to keep the traffic
:: flowing smoothly for everybody. There's nothing
:: special about that.
Agreed. But you're by-and-large naked and human powered, so in that sense
you and any other cyclist are "special". IMO.
And if somebody expresses their
:: appreciation for my doing that, that's fine 'n dandy,
:: but they don't gotta. It just shouldn't be so unusual
:: for a street-user to conform to the rules of the road.
:: Unfortunately, it /is/ so unusual. And that works
:: against us.
I think it's a very good idea for drivers and cyclists to acknowledge each
other on the road because that linked eye contact can result in people not
getting killed or killing someone. As a cyclist, I don't want to get
killed. As a driver I don't want to kill.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 19:07:55
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
Tom Keats wrote:
> I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
> down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
> Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
> Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
> of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
> his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
> He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
> turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
> and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
> proceeds on his merry way.
>
> So here's my comment:
> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
> I should. It's really not a good thing when
> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
> Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
> out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
> battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
> like that.
>
> BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
> to signal /to/, who can use the information.
>
> I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
> when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
> traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
> matter of course to use 'em.
I think the driver was merely acknowledging that you recognized the
situation and let him know your intentions so he could "let you go" and deal
with whatever was next. If you'd had cars behind you that you were also
alerting, he probably wouldn't have thought enough of the signal to thank
you for it. (Although a thoughtful driver might give you a nod so YOU knew
he saw you.)
As a bike rider, I'm aware that they're a lot bigger than I, so I usually
give waves and nods of appreciation when they afford me recognition. OTOH,
I'm quick to shout "Yo!" or "Hello???" when they're oblivious.
Bill "fan of competence" S.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 01:56:56
From:
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
On Jul 8, 5:37 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>
> So here's my comment:
> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
> I should. It's really not a good thing when
> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
> Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
> out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
> battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
> like that.
Oh, I don't have any problem with a little excess gratitude. "Thank
you"s are one of those things that make things nicer in all societies.
It's like our special thanks to the nice waiter at the little Italian
cafe last month. We didn't need to; he was only doing his job. But
he was doing it particularly well, and he appreciated being
acknowledged.
And when we returned the next evening, he treated us to free lemon
liquer. Everyone was happier as a result of that thank you!
- Frank Krygowski
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 21:19:21
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
Tom Keats wrote:
:: I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
:: down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
:: Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
:: Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
:: of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
:: his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
:: He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
:: turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
:: and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
:: proceeds on his merry way.
::
You should be happy that he acknowledged you instead of finding something
else to bitch about on usenet.
:: So here's my comment:
:: I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
:: I should. It's really not a good thing when
:: what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
:: Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
:: out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
:: battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
:: like that.
::
:: BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
:: to signal /to/, who can use the information.
::
:: I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
:: when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
:: traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
:: matter of course to use 'em.
::
::
:: cheers,
:: Tom
::
:: --
:: Nothing is safe from me.
:: I'm really at:
:: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 22:57:08
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
out--waving me across.
I mean, sure, it gets me across sooner, but I'm riding along expecting
them to behave in a certain (lawful) fashion, and whenever they stop and
wave me through, it disrupts my timing. It's as unnecessary as it is
unexpected.
It makes me miss London. I used to hop onto the Waterloo Bridge
roundabout in the middle of the morning and afternoon rush hours. I'd
roll up to the roundabout and take my turn at it. Nobody would freak out.
I'd get exactly as much space as I needed and no more.
It was just so nice to be regular traffic. Suburbia, U.S.A. isn't as
predictable.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 18:07:22
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:51:29 -0700, josh wrote:
> Anybody know anyone in tween/youth media who wants yet another social
> message to add to a show? I'm sure they could make a good physical
> comedy routine out of a bike-on-bike accident caused by signaling a turn
> then not turning, and it would reach more people than all the PSAs you
> could ever hope for on the subject.
The message: don't ride your bikes, kids.
At least that's what people will see.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 14:54:28
From:
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:57:08 GMT, Luigi de Guzman <luigi12081@cox.net >
wrote:
>My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
>out--waving me across.
>
>I mean, sure, it gets me across sooner, but I'm riding along expecting
>them to behave in a certain (lawful) fashion, and whenever they stop and
>wave me through, it disrupts my timing. It's as unnecessary as it is
>unexpected.
>
snip
Last time it happened to me it was a police cruiser waving me through
a stop sign without stopping. Would I have been arrested for failing
to obey a lawful order if I stopped?
Agreed it was awkward because I was unclipped and hard on the brakes
at the time.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 06:51:12
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:39:48 -0700, Tom Keats wrote:
>
> Yeah, dependent on the context of the situation (i.e:
> no third parties end up being delayed,) if a driver
> gives me a break, I've come to gratefully take it,
> rather than being a stickler for the rules.
I take it, but it rattles me to no end, since it's not something I expect.
Sometimes it even catches me off-balance.
It really bugs me when drivers do this at four-way stops. I'm almost OK
with the gesture when we are the only two vehicles at the intersection,
but when a third vehicle enters into the mix, things get silly, since the
third car has no idea what's going on. I'm afraid that one of these days
I'll be waved through by some well-meaning motorist and get crunched by a
third car who wasn't expecting me to be where I ended up.
>
> That's why I so much prefer the right-arm right-turn
> signal -- it isn't so ambiguous. It points to the
> direction into which one intends to turn, instead of
> up at the sky. The left-arm right-turn signal is a
> kludge, designed for operators of wide carriages.
Actually, when i'm driving a car with the windows down, I've gotten into
the habit of making hand signals as well....which is the only time I ever
do the left-hand-up right-hand-turn signal.
> Back in the day, most minor intersections here in Vancouver
> were so-called "courtesy corners" -- uncontrolled by signage,
> because people understood Right Of Way. Somewhere along the
> way that concept has become lost, and now practically every
> minor intersection in the city is now sign-controlled.
> So now, driving in Vancouver has become an exercise in
> connect-the-dots (the dots being signs telling you what to
> do) instead of knowing what to do before turning the ignition
> key and hitting the throttle pedal.
Ugh. Or how about traffic control signage that bears no relation to the
actual conditions on the ground? Around the corner from my house, there
is a long, steep residential street, running downhill, which intersects
another relatively level street. Traffic on the slope must stop for
traffic on the level--which makes no sense to me. Traffic on the level
can stop and start more easily than traffic on the hill. Sigh.
>
> I bet I know more about the rules of the road than most drivers
> in this city. And I've never even driven a car. But the
> rules of the road were inculcated into me and my peers by
> kith 'n kin when I first learned to ride as a child back
> in the '50s. Things have changed or become lost since then.
Not all is lost. I'm training my brothers in the rules of the road.
Middlebro is learning to drive a car, and the transition to the car was
much easier since I'd already gone over how to ride a bike in the street
with him. Babybro's next for instruction. I have to be the one to teach,
since both my parents are too damn scared to get on bikes in the first
place.
> Oh well. Nobody bothers to form an orderly queue at the
> bus stop or fast food restaurant anymore, either. Men
> no longer doff their hats indoors, and third-trimester
> pregnant women are hard-pressed to be offered a seat on
> a crowded bus.
>
> Like Bob Dylan said, the times they are a-changin'.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
-Luigi
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 00:51:51
From: Luigi de Guzman
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:57:35 +0000, Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
> unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
> also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
> Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.
I don't want your sympathy or your pity. I'm pitiful enough as it is.
All I want is to be able to look at a car in an intersection and be able
to predict what that car is going to do. Whenever you go out of your way
to be kind, you mess with my head.
Would I love a world where all motorists yielded to cyclists? Hell yeah.
Do I live in that world? Not by a long shot. I don't want to have to
roll up to the four-way stop or roundabout and have to wonder how
charitable the other road users are going to be. I need to be able to get
to that stop, roll up, and tell myself "OK, my turn after she makes the
turn. She made the turn. My turn!"
The suburbs are awful for this sort of thing. In denser cities, traffic
volume is so high and speeds so low that this isn't even an issue. On the
mean city streets, I can get into a groove pretty easily. But the
suburbanites in Suburbans kill me with kindness, literally.
>
> A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
> toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
> a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
> learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
> believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
> turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
> thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
> would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
Here's a question: was he a liquorbike rider or a guy in full club getup?
Here's another question: do you assume that those of us in liquorbike
gear are so incompetent that we need to be waved through?
>
> Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing. So at least all motorists
> and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
> sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
> instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
> included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
> that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
> like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.
There are bike rodeos in my town during suitable civic gatherings--the
Independence Day festivities included a bike rodeo in a local park.
Especially cool, since the cops have a bicycle patrol unit. I should have
gone over to see what it was about, now that I think about it.
If the bike rodeo assumed you'd be riding from point A to point B, then
yes, I'm totally for bike rodeos. Unfortunately, kids' bike safety
instruction these days boils down to "wear your helmet"--with
supplementary fretting from Mom about not playing in traffic.
-Luigi
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
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| | | |
Date: 09 Jul 2007 02:03:50
From: Cathy Kearns
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
"Luigi de Guzman" <luigi12081@cox.net > wrote in message
news:HEfki.12197$wG2.7431@newsfe17.lga...
> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:57:35 +0000, Cathy Kearns wrote:
>> A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
>> toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up
>> at
>> a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like
>> we
>> learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
>> believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
>> turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
>> thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection.
>> I
>> would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
>
> Here's a question: was he a liquorbike rider or a guy in full club getup?
> Here's another question: do you assume that those of us in liquorbike
> gear are so incompetent that we need to be waved through?
If liquorbike rider means anyone not in cycling specific clothes well, yeah,
he was a liquorbike rider. Though I can pretty much guarantee you no club
rider is going to take his hands off the bars while on a straight away if
they weren't turning, why mess up your aerodynamics if you don't have to.
This wasn't a four way stop, those going straight had the right of way.
At a four way stop if the cyclist isn't looking at me, (not my car, me) and
especially if they are looking down like they are going to stop I don't wave
them through. Most club cyclists will be looking at me, as they don't want
to unclip. Though, even when I'm on my errand bike people will wave me
through if I look them in the eye.
I don't assume those of you in "liquorbike gear" need to be waved through.
As a matter of fact, often it looks like they could use the rest. :-)
|
| | |
Date: 08 Jul 2007 17:39:48
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
In article <PReki.21070$RX.12979@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net >,
"Cathy Kearns" <cathy_kearns@yahoo.com > writes:
>
> "Luigi de Guzman" <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:8Zdki.10501$K73.1730@newsfe13.lga...
>> My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
>> out--waving me across.
>
> Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
> unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
> also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
> Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.
Yeah, dependent on the context of the situation (i.e:
no third parties end up being delayed,) if a driver
gives me a break, I've come to gratefully take it,
rather than being a stickler for the rules.
> A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
> toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
> a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
> learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
> believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
> turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
> thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
> would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
That's why I so much prefer the right-arm right-turn
signal -- it isn't so ambiguous. It points to the
direction into which one intends to turn, instead of
up at the sky. The left-arm right-turn signal is a
kludge, designed for operators of wide carriages.
> Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing.
Noooo!!
Okay, I think maybe you mean some sort of cyclist
education with accreditation to show that stuff
was actually learned. I'm okay with that. As long
as it isn't mandatory.
So at least all motorists
> and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
> sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
> instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
> included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
> that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
> like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.
The "rules of cyling" are simply the rules of the road for
everybody, which (should) boil down to the simple, common-law
concept of Right Of Way. And signalling. And using lights
at night.
Back in the day, most minor intersections here in Vancouver
were so-called "courtesy corners" -- uncontrolled by signage,
because people understood Right Of Way. Somewhere along the
way that concept has become lost, and now practically every
minor intersection in the city is now sign-controlled.
So now, driving in Vancouver has become an exercise in
connect-the-dots (the dots being signs telling you what to
do) instead of knowing what to do before turning the ignition
key and hitting the throttle pedal.
I bet I know more about the rules of the road than most drivers
in this city. And I've never even driven a car. But the
rules of the road were inculcated into me and my peers by
kith 'n kin when I first learned to ride as a child back
in the '50s. Things have changed or become lost since then.
Oh well. Nobody bothers to form an orderly queue at the
bus stop or fast food restaurant anymore, either. Men
no longer doff their hats indoors, and third-trimester
pregnant women are hard-pressed to be offered a seat on
a crowded bus.
Like Bob Dylan said, the times they are a-changin'.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 23:57:35
From: Cathy Kearns
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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"Luigi de Guzman" <luigi12081@cox.net > wrote in message
news:8Zdki.10501$K73.1730@newsfe13.lga...
> My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
> out--waving me across.
Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.
A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing. So at least all motorists
and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 13:36:43
From: Claire Petersky
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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"Cathy Kearns" <cathy_kearns@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:PReki.21070$RX.12979@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Luigi de Guzman" <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:8Zdki.10501$K73.1730@newsfe13.lga...
>> My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
>> out--waving me across.
>
> Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers.
I hate you. Well, not in general, just when you do that.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 12:51:25
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:57:35 GMT, Cathy Kearns wrote:
> Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
> unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through.
In principle it's a nice idea, but in practice the cyclist has probably
already planned to slow down enough to avoid unclipping, and shouldn't
trust an apparent wave from inside a car. You could be drying youir
nail polish, batting away a fly etc - it's hard to see into a car clearly.
Too many times I've hesitated, the driver has started moving again and I've
had to unclip in a hurry, when it wouldn't have occurred if the drivee had
just followed the rules. And he would have saved time, too.
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 01:41:58
From: Dennis Ferguson
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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On 2007-07-08, Cathy Kearns <cathy_kearns@yahoo.com > wrote:
> A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
> toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
> a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
> learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
> believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
> turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
> thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
> would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
A cyclist I was following (I was on my bike about 100 feet back) did that
too. Stuck his left arm up in what I thought was a retro right turn
signal and then went straight through the intersection.
I'm now worried that this signal now means something other than it used
to but no one told me.
Dennis Ferguson
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 10:51:29
From:
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
In article <slrnf934j5.83.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com >,
dcferguson@pacbell.net says...
> On 2007-07-08, Cathy Kearns <cathy_kearns@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
> > toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
> > a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
> > learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
> > believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
> > turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
> > thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
> > would have T-boned him had I made the turn.
>
> A cyclist I was following (I was on my bike about 100 feet back) did that
> too. Stuck his left arm up in what I thought was a retro right turn
> signal and then went straight through the intersection.
>
> I'm now worried that this signal now means something other than it used
> to but no one told me.
Perhaps some movie or TV character has been mis-signalling turns?
I've noticed waves of road misbehavior come and go -- a few years ago, I
noticed a surge of an even more dangerous behavior: when I was in my
car, approaching a bicycle from the rear, the bicycle rider, without
looking back, would swerve suicidally across the roadway and ride on the
wrong side of the road while I passed, then swerve back to the right
side of the road. I don't know what made this suicidal behavior
suddenly popular, but it seemed to fade away in a year or two, so I
suspected some popular-culture mis-example that went away.
Anybody know anyone in tween/youth media who wants yet another social
message to add to a show? I'm sure they could make a good physical
comedy routine out of a bike-on-bike accident caused by signaling a turn
then not turning, and it would reach more people than all the PSAs you
could ever hope for on the subject.
--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/ >
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html >
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Date: 09 Jul 2007 13:49:47
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
|
josh@phred.org wrote:
>
>
> Anybody know anyone in tween/youth media who wants yet another social
> message to add to a show? I'm sure they could make a good physical
> comedy routine out of a bike-on-bike accident caused by signaling a turn
> then not turning, and it would reach more people than all the PSAs you
> could ever hope for on the subject.
>
A year or two ago there was a fatal bike on bike accident, so nothing
like that would seem funny to me.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 15:16:39
From: joeu2004
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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On Jul 8, 2:37 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
> turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
> and the driver gives me a thank you wave
> [....]
> So here's my comment:
> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
> I should. It's really not a good thing when
> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
> [....]
> BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
> to signal /to/, who can use the information.
That's exactly the point. My guess is: the driver was thanking you
for doing what you should do for the very reason that so many cyclists
do not (sigh). It might also be the case that he recognized the fact
that your signaling was specifically for his benefit -- which you
admit was the case. When someone does something out of courtesy for
another, it is appropriate to say "thank you", even if the courteous
action should be expected.
Note: I am not advocating that you should signal all the time. To be
honest and fair, I am the same as you: I do not signal unless it is
to give a clear indication to an anticipating driver or pedestrian of
my intentions. But unlike you, I will not complain if the driver
gives me an appreciative nod or wave, in recognition of the fact that
my actions were indeed for his benefit.
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 22:10:55
From: Mark Shroyer
Subject: Re: cyclist/driver relations
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On 2007-07-08, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
> down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
> Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
> Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
> of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
> his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
> He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
> turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
> and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
> proceeds on his merry way.
>
> So here's my comment:
> I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
> I should. It's really not a good thing when
> what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
> Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
> out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
> battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
> like that.
>
> BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
> to signal /to/, who can use the information.
>
> I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
> when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
> traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
> matter of course to use 'em.
Amen. On the other hand (or the same one?), I used to ride with
someone who would wave thankfully at cars who yielded to his right
of way at intersections. I always wanted to ask him whether he was
surprised when drivers decided against ignoring him and running him
over.
--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
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