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Main Date: 28 Jan 2007 19:41:24 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: electric bikes on centuries As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com   Date: 16 Feb 2007 19:53:38 From: optibike Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Geez. A "factory sales person trying to make a sale?" Thats rough. We have 8 employees, who hand-build 125 bikes a year. We are sold out through June, and we are selling about 3-5 bikes a week now that it is warming up. I just wanted to share our bike with you guys and clear up some of the myths about E-bikes. Obviously, a strong cyclist probably would not have much use for one, Chris Carmichael loved it, but what does he know. Bill hit the nail on the head- we are getting people out there having fun that would (or could) not under other circumstances.     Date: 17 Feb 2007 14:02:38 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "optibike" <craig@optibike.com > wrote in message news:1171684418.759073.236730@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > Geez. A "factory sales person trying to make a sale?" > > Thats rough. We have 8 employees, who hand-build 125 bikes a year. > > We are sold out through June, and we are selling about 3-5 bikes a > week now that it is warming up. > > I just wanted to share our bike with you guys and clear up some of the > myths about E-bikes. > > Obviously, a strong cyclist probably would not have much use for one, > Chris Carmichael loved it, but what does he know. > > Bill hit the nail on the head- we are getting people out there having > fun that would (or could) not under other circumstances. And you have done all this while leaving out one very important bit of information. "They are Illegal in Most of the 50 States including California". I know of a few dealers of 49cc that make claims that you don't need a drivers license or DOT certification as well here. Just brings to mind, "Buyer Beware". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1978 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!   Date: 16 Feb 2007 10:45:45 From: optibike Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries > > And it does not meet the Low Speed Electric Bicycle nor the NHTA. This > means that it's illegal in most states to be ridden since it's too fast for > the LSEB and doesn't have the proper safety and construction for a Motorized > Vehicle including the 49cc Motorized Bicycle laws. > > In Colorado, theOptibikecould only be operated on Private Property and not > on Public Property (this includes the roadways and sidewalks) > > The interesting thing about the way the law is written is that it states that the motor cant propel you faster than 20mph. Fine. We can engineer our way through that loophole. With only the motor, you go no more than 20mph on the Optibike. Start pedaling, even a little tiny bit, and you will see much higher speeds. Technically, since the rider is moving the pedals, it is not just the motor, thus keepin it legal. CW     Date: 16 Feb 2007 12:35:57 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "optibike" <craig@optibike.com > wrote in message news:1171651545.800697.175040@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > >> >> And it does not meet the Low Speed Electric Bicycle nor the NHTA. This >> means that it's illegal in most states to be ridden since it's too fast >> for >> the LSEB and doesn't have the proper safety and construction for a >> Motorized >> Vehicle including the 49cc Motorized Bicycle laws. >> >> In Colorado, theOptibikecould only be operated on Private Property and >> not >> on Public Property (this includes the roadways and sidewalks) >> >> > The interesting thing about the way the law is written is that it > states that the motor cant propel you faster than 20mph. Fine. NHTA states that any two wheeled vehicle that can maintain at least 25 mph is considered a Motorized Bicycle (49cc) but it cannot exceed 30 mph. At this point, some say it must be DOT certified. Actually, it must be inspected to see if it has all the safety and construction required by the National Hiway and Transportation Act. Your vehicle clearly cannot pass those standards. And it is clearly not a Low Speed Electric Bicycle by Consumer Safety. We > can engineer our way through that loophole. With only the motor, you > go no more than 20mph on the Optibike. Start pedaling, even a little > tiny bit, and you will see much higher speeds. Technically, since the > rider is moving the pedals, it is not just the motor, thus keepin it > legal. You can tell us all this and try to make others believe it. But the law says differently. You Pedal without the motor power and it is not a bicycle. Sort of like sitting in the drivers seat of a car while you are drunk. Even though the motor is off and the transmission is in park, the keys are still in the ignition. Most states, you are legally DUI. What you have is a Motorcycle without the DOT Safety equipment. And I doubt if that can easily fixed without completely redisigning the whole system. At 35 mph, it's more than just a safety hazard to the operator. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1809 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!   Date: 16 Feb 2007 10:41:32 From: optibike Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill, I hope this info helps. > Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free > wheel built into your bottom bracket?? You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front Chainwheel (freewheel). > If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for > mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind > resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of > B; regen We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. The kicker here is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not worth it. > > I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, > just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or > even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC > motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an > electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I > have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or > what the added cost would be. > We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are talking about. Craig     Date: 16 Feb 2007 12:43:01 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "optibike" <craig@optibike.com > wrote in message news:1171651292.813244.70690@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Bill, > > I hope this info helps. > >> Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free >> wheel built into your bottom bracket?? > > You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your > feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front > Chainwheel (freewheel). > > >> If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for >> mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind >> resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of >> B; regen > > We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a > bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. The kicker here > is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like > we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top > in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be > interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does > not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, > speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the > four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not > worth it. >> >> I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, >> just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or >> even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC >> motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an >> electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I >> have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or >> what the added cost would be. >> > We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to > control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the > gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike > needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. > The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so > the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant > 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super > long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system > (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its > efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other > undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The > DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve > all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is > why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run > any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. > As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is > efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. > > Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are > talking about. > > Craig And I can tell you are a Factory Sales Person willing to say just about anything to make that sale. Fact is, you vehicle ISN"T a Low Speed Electric Bicycle. It's something entirely. It's too fast to be a LSEB since it can maintain at least 25 mph under it's own power. That speed is designated for the 49CC Scooters and Motorbikes. Now that we all know the Opti is not a street legal bicycle like the LSEB is then we can conclude that it also cannot meet the safety and construction standards of the 49CC Motorbike or Scooter. That leaves it being able to operate ONLY on Private Property. Careful, Bill, allowing these in with your bicycles would be the same as allowing a 49CC Gas Engine powered Bike in those meets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1809 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!       Date: 17 Feb 2007 00:14:40 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "optibike" <craig@optibike.com> wrote in message > news:1171651292.813244.70690@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> Bill, >> >> I hope this info helps. >> >>> Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free >>> wheel built into your bottom bracket?? >> You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your >> feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front >> Chainwheel (freewheel). >> >> >>> If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for >>> mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind >>> resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of >>> B; regen >> We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a >> bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. The kicker here >> is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like >> we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top >> in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be >> interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does >> not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, >> speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the >> four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not >> worth it. >>> I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, >>> just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or >>> even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC >>> motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an >>> electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I >>> have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or >>> what the added cost would be. >>> >> We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to >> control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the >> gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike >> needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. >> The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so >> the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant >> 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super >> long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system >> (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its >> efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other >> undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The >> DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve >> all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is >> why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run >> any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. >> As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is >> efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. >> >> Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are >> talking about. >> >> Craig > > And I can tell you are a Factory Sales Person willing to say just about > anything to make that sale. > > Fact is, you vehicle ISN"T a Low Speed Electric Bicycle. It's something > entirely. It's too fast to be a LSEB since it can maintain at least 25 mph > under it's own power. That speed is designated for the 49CC Scooters and > Motorbikes. Now that we all know the Opti is not a street legal bicycle > like the LSEB is then we can conclude that it also cannot meet the safety > and construction standards of the 49CC Motorbike or Scooter. That leaves it > being able to operate ONLY on Private Property. > > Careful, Bill, allowing these in with your bicycles would be the same as > allowing a 49CC Gas Engine powered Bike in those meets. > > I'm just trying to get a friend's foot out of the coffin and onto a bike, any bike. The guy is 4 years younger than me and can barely walk across a Wal-t parking lot. At 300+ pounds I don't think he would make it much over 20 MPH with the amount of initial input he has to give. Lighten up, I'm trying to do a good deed, not pollute the 'elite' crowd. Bill Baka         Date: 19 Feb 2007 08:55:42 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Daryl Hunt wrote: ::: "optibike" <craig@optibike.com > wrote in message ::: news:1171651292.813244.70690@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... :::: Bill, :::: :::: I hope this info helps. :::: ::::: Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a ::::: free wheel built into your bottom bracket?? :::: You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold :::: your feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the :::: front Chainwheel (freewheel). :::: :::: ::::: If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for ::::: mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright ::::: for wind resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using ::::: A; brakes, of B; regen :::: We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got :::: a bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. The kicker :::: here is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB :::: system like we have, and therefore would not have been able to :::: make it to the top in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge :::: downhill regen would be interesting. But we do not offer it for :::: the same reason Porsche does not offer a hybrid: we are focusing :::: the Optibike on performance, speed,style, and efficiency and the :::: delicate balance between the four. The Cost of Regen to the other :::: three components is just not worth it. ::::: I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. ::::: However, just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, ::::: 1800, 1200, or even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions ::::: of 60 Hz) why not a DC motor with electronics to control it, or ::::: even an A/C motor with an electronic control? I'm an engineer, so ::::: I think it can be done, but I have never been in keting so I ::::: don't know if you could push that, or what the added cost would ::::: be. ::::: :::: We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to :::: control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with :::: the gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the :::: Optibike needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or :::: from a stop. The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite :::: amount of time so the Optibike has super quick acceleration but :::: then runs at a constant 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so :::: the Optibike also has super long run times and range. The fatal :::: flaw with a hub motor system (even a geared one) is that the motor :::: is only at the top of its efficiency curve at one speed, so it :::: creates a lot of heat and other undesirables at any speed other :::: than that one (ie climbing hills) The DPC and the MBB on the :::: Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve all the time :::: giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is why even a :::: 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run any other :::: electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. As you :::: know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is :::: efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until :::: now. :::: :::: Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are :::: talking about. :::: :::: Craig ::: ::: And I can tell you are a Factory Sales Person willing to say just ::: about anything to make that sale. ::: ::: Fact is, you vehicle ISN"T a Low Speed Electric Bicycle. It's ::: something entirely. It's too fast to be a LSEB since it can ::: maintain at least 25 mph under it's own power. That speed is ::: designated for the 49CC Scooters and Motorbikes. Now that we all ::: know the Opti is not a street legal bicycle like the LSEB is then ::: we can conclude that it also cannot meet the safety and ::: construction standards of the 49CC Motorbike or Scooter. That ::: leaves it being able to operate ONLY on Private Property. ::: ::: Careful, Bill, allowing these in with your bicycles would be the ::: same as allowing a 49CC Gas Engine powered Bike in those meets. ::: ::: :: I'm just trying to get a friend's foot out of the coffin and onto a :: bike, any bike. The guy is 4 years younger than me and can barely :: walk across a Wal-t parking lot. At 300+ pounds I don't think he :: would make it much over 20 MPH with the amount of initial input he :: has to give. Lighten up, I'm trying to do a good deed, not pollute :: the 'elite' crowd. Bill Baka He's already got a bike....ride with him to the corner and back. When he gets tired, let him rest. Then he can ride some more.         Date: 17 Feb 2007 13:58:14 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:QNrBh.15186$O02.8697@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "optibike" <craig@optibike.com> wrote in message >> news:1171651292.813244.70690@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>> Bill, >>> >>> I hope this info helps. >>> >>>> Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free >>>> wheel built into your bottom bracket?? >>> You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your >>> feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front >>> Chainwheel (freewheel). >>> >>> >>>> If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for >>>> mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for >>>> wind >>>> resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of >>>> B; regen >>> We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a >>> bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. The kicker here >>> is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like >>> we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top >>> in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be >>> interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does >>> not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, >>> speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the >>> four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not >>> worth it. >>>> I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. >>>> However, >>>> just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or >>>> even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC >>>> motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an >>>> electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I >>>> have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or >>>> what the added cost would be. >>>> >>> We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to >>> control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the >>> gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike >>> needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. >>> The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so >>> the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant >>> 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super >>> long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system >>> (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its >>> efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other >>> undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The >>> DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve >>> all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is >>> why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run >>> any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. >>> As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is >>> efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. >>> >>> Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are >>> talking about. >>> >>> Craig >> >> And I can tell you are a Factory Sales Person willing to say just about >> anything to make that sale. >> >> Fact is, you vehicle ISN"T a Low Speed Electric Bicycle. It's something >> entirely. It's too fast to be a LSEB since it can maintain at least 25 >> mph under it's own power. That speed is designated for the 49CC Scooters >> and Motorbikes. Now that we all know the Opti is not a street legal >> bicycle like the LSEB is then we can conclude that it also cannot meet >> the safety and construction standards of the 49CC Motorbike or Scooter. >> That leaves it being able to operate ONLY on Private Property. >> >> Careful, Bill, allowing these in with your bicycles would be the same as >> allowing a 49CC Gas Engine powered Bike in those meets. >> >> > I'm just trying to get a friend's foot out of the coffin and onto a bike, > any bike. The guy is 4 years younger than me and can barely walk across a > Wal-t parking lot. At 300+ pounds I don't think he would make it much > over 20 MPH with the amount of initial input he has to give. > Lighten up, I'm trying to do a good deed, not pollute the 'elite' crowd. > Bill Baka I understand. But you must be aware that some are legal and others aren't. Salespeople sort of leave that all out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1978 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!     Date: 16 Feb 2007 14:33:33 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries optibike wrote: > Bill, > > I hope this info helps. > >> Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free >> wheel built into your bottom bracket?? > > You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your > feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front > Chainwheel (freewheel). A very good selling point if the motor does indeed totally free spin with no power applied. Also not having to pedal, except maybe when some one is watching, is also a big plus. > > >> If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for >> mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind >> resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of >> B; regen > > We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a > bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. Merely warm seems to be a bit of an understatement, but I will assume the disks are up to it. The kicker here > is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like > we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top > in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be > interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does > not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, > speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the > four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not > worth it. Check out the Tesla, electric car. It is very interesting, too. >> I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, >> just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or >> even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC >> motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an >> electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I >> have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or >> what the added cost would be. >> > We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to > control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the > gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike > needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. > The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so > the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant > 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super > long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system > (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its > efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other > undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The > DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve > all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is > why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run > any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. > As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is > efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. I know all too well about those Ohms, Watts, and that any heat at all is a waste product. > > Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are > talking about. > > Craig > > > Thank you Craig. Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and ride) one. I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, but I have a friend who just has to have a motor as a backup to get him even as far as the corner. He could be a customer, or stay a couch potato. Two of my couch potato friends are in the 'recently departed' category and I am trying to keep him out of that group. Regards, Bill Baka       Date: 17 Feb 2007 14:03:33 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... > optibike wrote: >> Bill, >> >> I hope this info helps. >> >>> Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free >>> wheel built into your bottom bracket?? >> >> You can pedal the Optibike with ZERO motor drag, and you can hold your >> feet stationary on the pedals while the motor is driving the front >> Chainwheel (freewheel). > > A very good selling point if the motor does indeed totally free spin with > no power applied. Also not having to pedal, except maybe when some one is > watching, is also a big plus. >> >> >>> If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for >>> mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind >>> resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of >>> B; regen >> >> We use either Avid Juicy 7 or Avid BB7 Vented Disks. The disks got a >> bit warm, but held up well coming down the mountain. > > Merely warm seems to be a bit of an understatement, but I will assume the > disks are up to it. > > The kicker here >> is that if we had regen, we would not be able to do a MBB system like >> we have, and therefore would not have been able to make it to the top >> in the first place!!!!! I agree, on a huge downhill regen would be >> interesting. But we do not offer it for the same reason Porsche does >> not offer a hybrid: we are focusing the Optibike on performance, >> speed,style, and efficiency and the delicate balance between the >> four. The Cost of Regen to the other three components is just not >> worth it. > > Check out the Tesla, electric car. It is very interesting, too. > >>> I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, >>> just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or >>> even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC >>> motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an >>> electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I >>> have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or >>> what the added cost would be. >>> >> We have a Proprietary "Derivative Power Control" (DPC) system to >> control the Brushless DC motor in the Optibike. Essentially, with the >> gearing )both in the derauiller and in the MBB itself, the Optibike >> needs the most power when accelerating through a gear or from a stop. >> The DPC gives the motor over 2500 watts for a finite amount of time so >> the Optibike has super quick acceleration but then runs at a constant >> 400 or 600w (depending on the model). so the Optibike also has super >> long run times and range. The fatal flaw with a hub motor system >> (even a geared one) is that the motor is only at the top of its >> efficiency curve at one speed, so it creates a lot of heat and other >> undesirables at any speed other than that one (ie climbing hills) The >> DPC and the MBB on the Optibike keep our motor at the top of its curve >> all the time giving the Optibike the definitive advantage. This is >> why even a 400w Optibike can out accelerate, out climb, and out run >> any other electric bike. Even bikes claiming to have 1000w motors. >> As you know, The difference between what goes in and what comes out is >> efficiency, and that is what E-bikes have been lacking up until now. > > I know all too well about those Ohms, Watts, and that any heat at all is a > waste product. >> >> Thanks for your great inquiries. I can tell you know what you are >> talking about. >> >> Craig >> >> >> > Thank you Craig. > Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and ride) one. > I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, but I have a friend > who just has to have a motor as a backup to get him even as far as the > corner. He could be a customer, or stay a couch potato. Two of my couch > potato friends are in the 'recently departed' category and I am trying to > keep him out of that group. > Regards, > Bill Baka And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly "Illegal" then this is a good thing as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1978 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!         Date: 18 Feb 2007 04:47:52 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... >> Thank you Craig. >> Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and ride) one. >> I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, but I have a friend >> who just has to have a motor as a backup to get him even as far as the >> corner. He could be a customer, or stay a couch potato. Two of my couch >> potato friends are in the 'recently departed' category and I am trying to >> keep him out of that group. >> Regards, >> Bill Baka > > And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly "Illegal" > then this is a good thing as well. > He can fake it by pedaling and the cops would be really impressed. We plan on some 'trails' that were made by paving unused railroad rights of way. Dead straight, but no traffic. The cops around here could care less unless he was making a drug delivery. Besides, I don't want to make it 3 funerals in 3 years. My friends are thinning themselves out, the hard way. Bill Baka           Date: 19 Feb 2007 15:43:50 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:YTQBh.63740$wc5.43594@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... >>> Thank you Craig. >>> Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and ride) one. >>> I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, but I have a friend >>> who just has to have a motor as a backup to get him even as far as the >>> corner. He could be a customer, or stay a couch potato. Two of my couch >>> potato friends are in the 'recently departed' category and I am trying >>> to keep him out of that group. >>> Regards, >>> Bill Baka >> >> And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly "Illegal" >> then this is a good thing as well. >> > He can fake it by pedaling and the cops would be really impressed. We plan > on some 'trails' that were made by paving unused railroad rights of way. > Dead straight, but no traffic. > The cops around here could care less unless he was making a drug delivery. > Besides, I don't want to make it 3 funerals in 3 years. > My friends are thinning themselves out, the hard way. > Bill Baka If you want, just stay within the California Low Speed Electric Bicycle law. Simple as that. There are many different models out there that meet those standards. Optibike just isn't one of them. As for 100 miles, if you stay within the Low Speed Electric Bike Law (California is a bit looser than most other states) you won't make it without many battery changes and motor cool down periods. Less than 1000 watts and 20 mph or less means that you will be working the motor. Keeping the speed down to about 10 or 12 mph certainly helps with this type of motor and might get you a few more miles. But your buddy weighs in at a very large weight and that certainly takes away from top speed and range. Now that we have pretty well discounted the 2 wheel LSEBs let's look at the 3 wheelers. If the 3 wheeler is made from Steel with no suspension, that puppy can carry twice the weight of the 2 wheeler. This means it can carry his extra bulk, be quite stable (slow turns with batteries mounted below the axle hight) and you can run the higher Amperage batteries. It's also better to modify a steel framed recumbent. Now, let's take a look what it would take. Start with no more than a 20 inch front wheeled Trike or Recumbent. 20 in would be the optimum but 16 would also work. Don't go bigger than that or it may end up with a high tip over rate. Now, let's install the kit. http://lsebicycle.com/ comes with the whole thing but you have to specify the wheel size so have the bike picked out. Your buddy may enjoy the 3 wheeler much more than the 2 wheeler at his weight. Don't use the battery pack for your main batteries. It's better to use higher Amperage Batterys. Sealed Lead Acids can go as high as 75 amps and are relivaly cheap. Just keep the 12 amp pack on board to help you get to your next location when you forget to recharge the bigger pack. On a 3 wheeler with a 12 amp battery and his body weight, he will only get maybe 7 miles on a good day without pedaling on level smooth ground. If he loses the poundage the speed and range increases. With 3 35 watt batteries (36V) he shouldn't lose any distance to speak of at first. But he will be able to more than double his range. If he keeps his foot out it he might make 20 to 25 miles. These are realistic figures as I ride something similiar every day 365/7. The book says I should be getting 20+ miles range but I weigh in at 240 and get anywhere from 7 to 12 miles depending on the terrain. The book figures are for someone 170lbs or less, on completely smooth and level surface. Real life doesn't happen usually. You can get Sealed Lead Acid Batteries up to at least 75 amps. But now you are getting well into the price of a ine Battery with at least 4 times that output. If you were to use ine Deep Cycles and beefed up the rear axel a bit then he just MIGHT make that century k. This layout is on the drawing boards over here for the spring. My next door neighbor bought a kit from us and he gets some astronomical performance. While I top out at 18 mph and keep it below 15 for range, he keeps it just below 20 but can top out at over 26 mph. I weigh in at 240 while he weighs in at 125 soaking wet. I have no doubt he can make the 20 mph+. He's lighter than the test weight of 170lbs. In fact, he can carry 2 battery packs and still be below the 170 lbs. He owns two packs. So his range may be in the excess of 40 miles. But let's not press it past that. The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The 26 in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do have to watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can only get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If you go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but lower your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2309 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!             Date: 21 Feb 2007 08:54:34 From: David Kerber Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In article <45da28ba$1@news.i70west.com >, dhunt@colwestnospam.com says... ... > The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The 26 > in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do have to > watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can only > get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If you > go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but lower > your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. > Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. > This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. Do you have a 700c wheel, so I could put one on my tourer and still have brakes? .... -- Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).               Date: 21 Feb 2007 10:02:05 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net > wrote in message news:MPG.204618b43e2f7bef989ac5@news.conversent.net... > In article <45da28ba$1@news.i70west.com>, dhunt@colwestnospam.com > says... > > ... > >> The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The >> 26 >> in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do have >> to >> watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can >> only >> get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If >> you >> go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but >> lower >> your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. >> Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. >> This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. > > Do you have a 700c wheel, so I could put one on my tourer and still have > brakes? Let's take a look at 700cc versus the 26 in. The 26 is 11% smaller than the 700. But, now, if your tourer is less than the standard The work around this is for you to run the 26 in front wheel and fatter tires to make up the difference and get the stability back. Don't run 26 in without the taller tire with the 700cc rear wheel. Now the bad news. Whether it's a 26 or a 700, don't use the hub (it also comes seperate) on the 1 /3/8 rims. You are going to probably have front tire spin. And, what's worse, you rim, frame and forks will be overtaxed. Even though it can be done, DON'T. Maybe, you can do it on a hybrid that is somewhere in between a MB/Cruiser and the Tourer by installing just the hub on the appropriate sized Rim. The Hub can be had seperate but you would have to have a bike shop make custom length spokes for it. And remember, Steel is a wonderful thing. Stainless is even better for the spokes. Even with standard spokes, they are about 4 to 6 inches shorter so they won't flex as much as a standard fork. Flex is not your friend. As for MBs, using a full suspension MB is not recommended. I ride one and it flexes. It could be my extra baggage (240 lbs) or the suspension. But it does take some getting used to. It's better to use a rigid frame and fork MB. As for the Cruiser, again, a rigid frame and front fork setup. Like the MB, it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to convert it since you would be using the Hub and Wheel already build up. Again, if you are running a 700cc wheel that is somewhere between 1.8 to 2.1 then run taller tires to make up the difference in height. Hope that helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2571 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                 Date: 22 Feb 2007 08:36:23 From: David Kerber Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In article <45dc7bcc$1@news.i70west.com >, dhunt@colwestnospam.com says... > > "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message > news:MPG.204618b43e2f7bef989ac5@news.conversent.net... > > In article <45da28ba$1@news.i70west.com>, dhunt@colwestnospam.com > > says... > > > > ... > > > >> The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The > >> 26 > >> in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do have > >> to > >> watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can > >> only > >> get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If > >> you > >> go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but > >> lower > >> your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. > >> Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. > >> This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. > > > > Do you have a 700c wheel, so I could put one on my tourer and still have > > brakes? > > Let's take a look at 700cc versus the 26 in. The 26 is 11% smaller than the > 700. But, now, if your tourer is less than the standard The work around > this is for you to run the 26 in front wheel and fatter tires to make up the > difference and get the stability back. Don't run 26 in without the taller > tire with the 700cc rear wheel. But will I be able to adjust my brakes to reach? How much will I need to move the pads in to reach the rim? > > Now the bad news. Whether it's a 26 or a 700, don't use the hub (it also > comes seperate) on the 1 /3/8 rims. You are going to probably have front > tire spin. And, what's worse, you rim, frame and forks will be overtaxed. > Even though it can be done, DON'T. This isn't a credit-card tourer; it's a heavy steel frame designed for loaded touring - came with a rack from the fractory, front and rear braze-ons for panniers and fenders, etc; it's pretty sturdy. The bike is about 30 lbs with nothing on the rack; I can get it down to 26 if I put on skinny tires, remove the rack and fenders, etc, but that's as light as it goes. It came with MTB rims and 32mm tires, but has clearance for much larger ones. > Maybe, you can do it on a hybrid that is somewhere in between a MB/Cruiser > and the Tourer by installing just the hub on the appropriate sized Rim. The I'll bet my tourer is sturdier than most any cruiser out there. > Hub can be had seperate but you would have to have a bike shop make custom > length spokes for it. And remember, Steel is a wonderful thing. Stainless > is even better for the spokes. Even with standard spokes, they are about 4 > to 6 inches shorter so they won't flex as much as a standard fork. Flex is > not your friend. > > As for MBs, using a full suspension MB is not recommended. I ride one and > it flexes. It could be my extra baggage (240 lbs) or the suspension. But > it does take some getting used to. It's better to use a rigid frame and > fork MB. I'm about 185 lbs > > As for the Cruiser, again, a rigid frame and front fork setup. Like the MB, > it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to convert it since you would be using the > Hub and Wheel already build up. Again, if you are running a 700cc wheel > that is somewhere between 1.8 to 2.1 then run taller tires to make up the > difference in height. > > Hope that helps. .... -- Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).                   Date: 22 Feb 2007 11:15:27 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net > wrote in message news:MPG.20476597713ef2ba989ac8@news.conversent.net... > In article <45dc7bcc$1@news.i70west.com>, dhunt@colwestnospam.com > says... >> >> "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message >> news:MPG.204618b43e2f7bef989ac5@news.conversent.net... >> > In article <45da28ba$1@news.i70west.com>, dhunt@colwestnospam.com >> > says... >> > >> > ... >> > >> >> The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. >> >> The >> >> 26 >> >> in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do >> >> have >> >> to >> >> watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can >> >> only >> >> get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If >> >> you >> >> go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but >> >> lower >> >> your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. >> >> Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 >> >> will. >> >> This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. >> > >> > Do you have a 700c wheel, so I could put one on my tourer and still >> > have >> > brakes? >> >> Let's take a look at 700cc versus the 26 in. The 26 is 11% smaller than >> the >> 700. But, now, if your tourer is less than the standard The work >> around >> this is for you to run the 26 in front wheel and fatter tires to make up >> the >> difference and get the stability back. Don't run 26 in without the >> taller >> tire with the 700cc rear wheel. > > But will I be able to adjust my brakes to reach? How much will I need > to move the pads in to reach the rim? Good question. One that only you can answer. Get a spare 26in wheel and see how it mounts. That should answer your question. It's good that you have the brakes you do. If they were disk brakes, it would require a bunch of modification. > >> >> Now the bad news. Whether it's a 26 or a 700, don't use the hub (it also >> comes seperate) on the 1 /3/8 rims. You are going to probably have front >> tire spin. And, what's worse, you rim, frame and forks will be >> overtaxed. >> Even though it can be done, DON'T. > > This isn't a credit-card tourer; it's a heavy steel frame designed for > loaded touring - came with a rack from the fractory, front and rear > braze-ons for panniers and fenders, etc; it's pretty sturdy. The bike > is about 30 lbs with nothing on the rack; I can get it down to 26 if I > put on skinny tires, remove the rack and fenders, etc, but that's as > light as it goes. It came with MTB rims and 32mm tires, but has > clearance for much larger ones. Fenders? Did you say Fenders? That doesn't sound like the Touring bike I had in mind. Fenders are good especially when your front wheel is throwing up the liquid road into your face. MTB rims are exactly what the kit is designed to fit. If your tire is (I think in US Standards) between 1.8 and 2.1 then you can easily use the kit. But, as you pointed out, your brakes might have to be modified. A 700 is about midway between a 26 and a 27 in. That would mean you might have to have a 1/2 in of adjustment on your brake arms. > > >> Maybe, you can do it on a hybrid that is somewhere in between a >> MB/Cruiser >> and the Tourer by installing just the hub on the appropriate sized Rim. >> The > > I'll bet my tourer is sturdier than most any cruiser out there. Now, Now, don't get mad on me. Of course, I remember my old 1965 Shwinn with the headlights built into the frame. VWs avoided collision with that one. > >> Hub can be had seperate but you would have to have a bike shop make >> custom >> length spokes for it. And remember, Steel is a wonderful thing. >> Stainless >> is even better for the spokes. Even with standard spokes, they are about >> 4 >> to 6 inches shorter so they won't flex as much as a standard fork. Flex >> is >> not your friend. >> >> As for MBs, using a full suspension MB is not recommended. I ride one >> and >> it flexes. It could be my extra baggage (240 lbs) or the suspension. >> But >> it does take some getting used to. It's better to use a rigid frame and >> fork MB. > > I'm about 185 lbs Still, a rigid frame and forks are what is "Recommended". Note the word and make up your own mind what it means. > >> >> As for the Cruiser, again, a rigid frame and front fork setup. Like the >> MB, >> it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to convert it since you would be using >> the >> Hub and Wheel already build up. Again, if you are running a 700cc wheel >> that is somewhere between 1.8 to 2.1 then run taller tires to make up the >> difference in height. >> >> Hope that helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2708 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!             Date: 21 Feb 2007 04:17:47 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:YTQBh.63740$wc5.43594@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... >>>> Thank you Craig. >>>> Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and ride) one. >>>> I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, but I have a friend >>>> who just has to have a motor as a backup to get him even as far as the >>>> corner. He could be a customer, or stay a couch potato. Two of my couch >>>> potato friends are in the 'recently departed' category and I am trying >>>> to keep him out of that group. >>>> Regards, >>>> Bill Baka >>> And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly "Illegal" >>> then this is a good thing as well. >>> >> He can fake it by pedaling and the cops would be really impressed. We plan >> on some 'trails' that were made by paving unused railroad rights of way. >> Dead straight, but no traffic. >> The cops around here could care less unless he was making a drug delivery. >> Besides, I don't want to make it 3 funerals in 3 years. >> My friends are thinning themselves out, the hard way. >> Bill Baka > > If you want, just stay within the California Low Speed Electric Bicycle law. > Simple as that. There are many different models out there that meet those > standards. Optibike just isn't one of them. > > As for 100 miles, if you stay within the Low Speed Electric Bike Law > (California is a bit looser than most other states) you won't make it > without many battery changes and motor cool down periods. Less than 1000 > watts and 20 mph or less means that you will be working the motor. Keeping > the speed down to about 10 or 12 mph certainly helps with this type of motor > and might get you a few more miles. But your buddy weighs in at a very > large weight and that certainly takes away from top speed and range. > > Now that we have pretty well discounted the 2 wheel LSEBs let's look at the > 3 wheelers. If the 3 wheeler is made from Steel with no suspension, that > puppy can carry twice the weight of the 2 wheeler. This means it can carry > his extra bulk, be quite stable (slow turns with batteries mounted below the > axle hight) and you can run the higher Amperage batteries. It's also better > to modify a steel framed recumbent. > > Now, let's take a look what it would take. > > Start with no more than a 20 inch front wheeled Trike or Recumbent. 20 in > would be the optimum but 16 would also work. Don't go bigger than that or > it may end up with a high tip over rate. > > Now, let's install the kit. http://lsebicycle.com/ comes with the whole > thing but you have to specify the wheel size so have the bike picked out. > Your buddy may enjoy the 3 wheeler much more than the 2 wheeler at his > weight. Don't use the battery pack for your main batteries. It's better to > use higher Amperage Batterys. Sealed Lead Acids can go as high as 75 amps > and are relivaly cheap. Just keep the 12 amp pack on board to help you get > to your next location when you forget to recharge the bigger pack. > > On a 3 wheeler with a 12 amp battery and his body weight, he will only get > maybe 7 miles on a good day without pedaling on level smooth ground. If he > loses the poundage the speed and range increases. With 3 35 watt batteries > (36V) he shouldn't lose any distance to speak of at first. But he will be > able to more than double his range. If he keeps his foot out it he might > make 20 to 25 miles. These are realistic figures as I ride something > similiar every day 365/7. The book says I should be getting 20+ miles range > but I weigh in at 240 and get anywhere from 7 to 12 miles depending on the > terrain. The book figures are for someone 170lbs or less, on completely > smooth and level surface. Real life doesn't happen usually. > > You can get Sealed Lead Acid Batteries up to at least 75 amps. But now you > are getting well into the price of a ine Battery with at least 4 times > that output. If you were to use ine Deep Cycles and beefed up the rear > axel a bit then he just MIGHT make that century k. This layout is on the > drawing boards over here for the spring. > > My next door neighbor bought a kit from us and he gets some astronomical > performance. While I top out at 18 mph and keep it below 15 for range, he > keeps it just below 20 but can top out at over 26 mph. I weigh in at 240 > while he weighs in at 125 soaking wet. I have no doubt he can make the 20 > mph+. He's lighter than the test weight of 170lbs. In fact, he can carry 2 > battery packs and still be below the 170 lbs. He owns two packs. So his > range may be in the excess of 40 miles. But let's not press it past that. > > The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The 26 > in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do have to > watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, I can only > get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test weight. If you > go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased your torque but lower > your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. > Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. > This is why I suggest the steel framed recumbent. > All the points you make are valid, but I have known 'Spanky' since he was 26 and 300 pounds. He got the label of Spanky after the fat kid on the old (1930's) Little Rascals, or Our Gang, depending on when or if you ever watched that old stuff. He tells me this is his 'natural' weight since he is a food addict. There is a nice Cannondale in his garage or somewhere, but he has 6 cars, 5 motorcycles, 6 computers, and the list of stuff just goes on. He is a hopeless pack rack so he also has a Trek in the back yard but knows better than to even try to get on it. 18 MPH is about my max cruising speed on my power, 15 is better for me, since I ride mostly a 26" mountain bike with street slicks for the road riding. I don't think I will ever get him on anything but flat pavement, but I need to get him a kick in the rear to get going. If there is a kit that we could take on as a project, I know I can get him involved in a build up. He plans on staying at 300 and I plan on getting back down to my summer 145, yet he is only about 3 inches taller than me. Our first trip is going to be about 7 miles each way and I have a feeling that it will be a long day. Any motivational pointers will be appreciated. I have already tried the 'heart attack' card but he seems to feel it can't happen to him. Famous last words. I don't think I could have a heart attack if I tried, but he can't say the same thing. Frustrated. Bill Baka               Date: 25 Feb 2007 09:57:30 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Daryl Hunt wrote: ::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message ::: news:YTQBh.63740$wc5.43594@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... :::: Daryl Hunt wrote: ::::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message ::::: news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... :::::: Thank you Craig. :::::: Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and :::::: ride) one. I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, :::::: but I have a friend who just has to have a motor as a backup to :::::: get him even as far as the corner. He could be a customer, or :::::: stay a couch potato. Two of my couch potato friends are in the :::::: 'recently departed' category and I am trying to keep him out of :::::: that group. :::::: Regards, :::::: Bill Baka ::::: And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly ::::: "Illegal" then this is a good thing as well. ::::: :::: He can fake it by pedaling and the cops would be really impressed. :::: We plan on some 'trails' that were made by paving unused railroad :::: rights of way. Dead straight, but no traffic. :::: The cops around here could care less unless he was making a drug :::: delivery. Besides, I don't want to make it 3 funerals in 3 years. :::: My friends are thinning themselves out, the hard way. :::: Bill Baka ::: ::: If you want, just stay within the California Low Speed Electric ::: Bicycle law. Simple as that. There are many different models out ::: there that meet those standards. Optibike just isn't one of them. ::: ::: As for 100 miles, if you stay within the Low Speed Electric Bike Law ::: (California is a bit looser than most other states) you won't make ::: it without many battery changes and motor cool down periods. Less ::: than 1000 watts and 20 mph or less means that you will be working ::: the motor. Keeping the speed down to about 10 or 12 mph certainly ::: helps with this type of motor and might get you a few more miles. ::: But your buddy weighs in at a very large weight and that certainly ::: takes away from top speed and range. ::: ::: Now that we have pretty well discounted the 2 wheel LSEBs let's ::: look at the 3 wheelers. If the 3 wheeler is made from Steel with ::: no suspension, that puppy can carry twice the weight of the 2 ::: wheeler. This means it can carry his extra bulk, be quite stable ::: (slow turns with batteries mounted below the axle hight) and you ::: can run the higher Amperage batteries. It's also better to modify ::: a steel framed recumbent. ::: ::: Now, let's take a look what it would take. ::: ::: Start with no more than a 20 inch front wheeled Trike or ::: Recumbent. 20 in would be the optimum but 16 would also work. ::: Don't go bigger than that or it may end up with a high tip over ::: rate. ::: ::: Now, let's install the kit. http://lsebicycle.com/ comes with the ::: whole thing but you have to specify the wheel size so have the bike ::: picked out. Your buddy may enjoy the 3 wheeler much more than the 2 ::: wheeler at his weight. Don't use the battery pack for your main ::: batteries. It's better to use higher Amperage Batterys. Sealed ::: Lead Acids can go as high as 75 amps and are relivaly cheap. Just ::: keep the 12 amp pack on board to help you get to your next location ::: when you forget to recharge the bigger pack. ::: ::: On a 3 wheeler with a 12 amp battery and his body weight, he will ::: only get maybe 7 miles on a good day without pedaling on level ::: smooth ground. If he loses the poundage the speed and range ::: increases. With 3 35 watt batteries (36V) he shouldn't lose any ::: distance to speak of at first. But he will be able to more than ::: double his range. If he keeps his foot out it he might make 20 to ::: 25 miles. These are realistic figures as I ride something similiar ::: every day 365/7. The book says I should be getting 20+ miles range ::: but I weigh in at 240 and get anywhere from 7 to 12 miles depending ::: on the terrain. The book figures are for someone 170lbs or less, ::: on completely smooth and level surface. Real life doesn't happen ::: usually. ::: ::: You can get Sealed Lead Acid Batteries up to at least 75 amps. But ::: now you are getting well into the price of a ine Battery with at ::: least 4 times that output. If you were to use ine Deep Cycles ::: and beefed up the rear axel a bit then he just MIGHT make that ::: century k. This layout is on the drawing boards over here for ::: the spring. ::: ::: My next door neighbor bought a kit from us and he gets some ::: astronomical performance. While I top out at 18 mph and keep it ::: below 15 for range, he keeps it just below 20 but can top out at ::: over 26 mph. I weigh in at 240 while he weighs in at 125 soaking ::: wet. I have no doubt he can make the 20 mph+. He's lighter than ::: the test weight of 170lbs. In fact, he can carry 2 battery packs ::: and still be below the 170 lbs. He owns two packs. So his range ::: may be in the excess of 40 miles. But let's not press it past ::: that. ::: ::: The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. ::: The 26 in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. ::: You do have to watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. ::: Of course, I can only get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs ::: above the test weight. If you go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) ::: then you increased your torque but lower your highest attainable ::: speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. Chances are, the 26 ::: may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. This is why I ::: suggest the steel framed recumbent. ::: :: All the points you make are valid, but I have known 'Spanky' since he :: was 26 and 300 pounds. He got the label of Spanky after the fat kid :: on the old (1930's) Little Rascals, or Our Gang, depending on when :: or if you ever watched that old stuff. He tells me this is his :: 'natural' weight since he is a food addict. There is a nice :: Cannondale in his garage or somewhere, but he has 6 cars, 5 :: motorcycles, 6 computers, and the list of stuff just goes on. He is :: a hopeless pack rack so he also has a Trek in the back yard but :: knows better than to even try to get on it. 18 MPH is about my max :: cruising speed on my power, 15 is better for me, since I ride mostly :: a 26" mountain bike with street slicks for the road riding. I don't :: think I will ever get him on anything but flat pavement, but I need :: to get him a kick in the rear to get going. :: If there is a kit that we could take on as a project, I know I can :: get him involved in a build up. He plans on staying at 300 and I :: plan on getting back down to my summer 145, yet he is only about 3 :: inches taller than me. :: Our first trip is going to be about 7 miles each way and I have a :: feeling that it will be a long day. :: :: Any motivational pointers will be appreciated. :: I have already tried the 'heart attack' card but he seems to feel it :: can't happen to him. :: Famous last words. :: I don't think I could have a heart attack if I tried, but he can't :: say the same thing. :: Frustrated. :: Bill Baka I used to weigh 367 lbs. I lost 140+ lbs. You can't make someone else lose weight (assuming you're not willing to lock them in a room and control what they eat). It has to come from inside them. You're fighting a losing game there, Billy boy. If he really wanted to lose weight, he has everything needed to do so but the desire. Sorry.                 Date: 25 Feb 2007 18:49:35 From: nash Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12u38ut1ombkc5c@news.supernews.com... > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Daryl Hunt wrote: > ::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > ::: news:YTQBh.63740$wc5.43594@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > :::: Daryl Hunt wrote: > ::::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > ::::: news:7jqBh.12463$4H1.3012@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... > :::::: Thank you Craig. > :::::: Maybe somebody in this group might get a friend to buy (and > :::::: ride) one. I don't think I will 'need' one for about 20 years, > :::::: but I have a friend who just has to have a motor as a backup to > :::::: get him even as far as the corner. He could be a customer, or > :::::: stay a couch potato. Two of my couch potato friends are in the > :::::: 'recently departed' category and I am trying to keep him out of > :::::: that group. > :::::: Regards, > :::::: Bill Baka > ::::: And when he gets stopped and ticketed because they are clearly > ::::: "Illegal" then this is a good thing as well. > ::::: > :::: He can fake it by pedaling and the cops would be really impressed. > :::: We plan on some 'trails' that were made by paving unused railroad > :::: rights of way. Dead straight, but no traffic. > :::: The cops around here could care less unless he was making a drug > :::: delivery. Besides, I don't want to make it 3 funerals in 3 years. > :::: My friends are thinning themselves out, the hard way. > :::: Bill Baka > ::: > ::: If you want, just stay within the California Low Speed Electric > ::: Bicycle law. Simple as that. There are many different models out > ::: there that meet those standards. Optibike just isn't one of them. > ::: > ::: As for 100 miles, if you stay within the Low Speed Electric Bike Law > ::: (California is a bit looser than most other states) you won't make > ::: it without many battery changes and motor cool down periods. Less > ::: than 1000 watts and 20 mph or less means that you will be working > ::: the motor. Keeping the speed down to about 10 or 12 mph certainly > ::: helps with this type of motor and might get you a few more miles. > ::: But your buddy weighs in at a very large weight and that certainly > ::: takes away from top speed and range. > ::: > ::: Now that we have pretty well discounted the 2 wheel LSEBs let's > ::: look at the 3 wheelers. If the 3 wheeler is made from Steel with > ::: no suspension, that puppy can carry twice the weight of the 2 > ::: wheeler. This means it can carry his extra bulk, be quite stable > ::: (slow turns with batteries mounted below the axle hight) and you > ::: can run the higher Amperage batteries. It's also better to modify > ::: a steel framed recumbent. > ::: > ::: Now, let's take a look what it would take. > ::: > ::: Start with no more than a 20 inch front wheeled Trike or > ::: Recumbent. 20 in would be the optimum but 16 would also work. > ::: Don't go bigger than that or it may end up with a high tip over > ::: rate. > ::: > ::: Now, let's install the kit. http://lsebicycle.com/ comes with the > ::: whole thing but you have to specify the wheel size so have the bike > ::: picked out. Your buddy may enjoy the 3 wheeler much more than the 2 > ::: wheeler at his weight. Don't use the battery pack for your main > ::: batteries. It's better to use higher Amperage Batterys. Sealed > ::: Lead Acids can go as high as 75 amps and are relivaly cheap. Just > ::: keep the 12 amp pack on board to help you get to your next location > ::: when you forget to recharge the bigger pack. > ::: > ::: On a 3 wheeler with a 12 amp battery and his body weight, he will > ::: only get maybe 7 miles on a good day without pedaling on level > ::: smooth ground. If he loses the poundage the speed and range > ::: increases. With 3 35 watt batteries (36V) he shouldn't lose any > ::: distance to speak of at first. But he will be able to more than > ::: double his range. If he keeps his foot out it he might make 20 to > ::: 25 miles. These are realistic figures as I ride something similiar > ::: every day 365/7. The book says I should be getting 20+ miles range > ::: but I weigh in at 240 and get anywhere from 7 to 12 miles depending > ::: on the terrain. The book figures are for someone 170lbs or less, > ::: on completely smooth and level surface. Real life doesn't happen > ::: usually. > ::: > ::: You can get Sealed Lead Acid Batteries up to at least 75 amps. But > ::: now you are getting well into the price of a ine Battery with at > ::: least 4 times that output. If you were to use ine Deep Cycles > ::: and beefed up the rear axel a bit then he just MIGHT make that > ::: century k. This layout is on the drawing boards over here for > ::: the spring. > ::: > ::: My next door neighbor bought a kit from us and he gets some > ::: astronomical performance. While I top out at 18 mph and keep it > ::: below 15 for range, he keeps it just below 20 but can top out at > ::: over 26 mph. I weigh in at 240 while he weighs in at 125 soaking > ::: wet. I have no doubt he can make the 20 mph+. He's lighter than > ::: the test weight of 170lbs. In fact, he can carry 2 battery packs > ::: and still be below the 170 lbs. He owns two packs. So his range > ::: may be in the excess of 40 miles. But let's not press it past > ::: that. > ::: > ::: The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. > ::: The 26 in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. > ::: You do have to watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. > ::: Of course, I can only get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs > ::: above the test weight. If you go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) > ::: then you increased your torque but lower your highest attainable > ::: speed. Your buddy weighs in at over 300 lbs. Chances are, the 26 > ::: may not develop the torque needed. But the 16 will. This is why I > ::: suggest the steel framed recumbent. > ::: > :: All the points you make are valid, but I have known 'Spanky' since he > :: was 26 and 300 pounds. He got the label of Spanky after the fat kid > :: on the old (1930's) Little Rascals, or Our Gang, depending on when > :: or if you ever watched that old stuff. He tells me this is his > :: 'natural' weight since he is a food addict. There is a nice > :: Cannondale in his garage or somewhere, but he has 6 cars, 5 > :: motorcycles, 6 computers, and the list of stuff just goes on. He is > :: a hopeless pack rack so he also has a Trek in the back yard but > :: knows better than to even try to get on it. 18 MPH is about my max > :: cruising speed on my power, 15 is better for me, since I ride mostly > :: a 26" mountain bike with street slicks for the road riding. I don't > :: think I will ever get him on anything but flat pavement, but I need > :: to get him a kick in the rear to get going. > :: If there is a kit that we could take on as a project, I know I can > :: get him involved in a build up. He plans on staying at 300 and I > :: plan on getting back down to my summer 145, yet he is only about 3 > :: inches taller than me. > :: Our first trip is going to be about 7 miles each way and I have a > :: feeling that it will be a long day. > :: > :: Any motivational pointers will be appreciated. > :: I have already tried the 'heart attack' card but he seems to feel it > :: can't happen to him. > :: Famous last words. > :: I don't think I could have a heart attack if I tried, but he can't > :: say the same thing. > :: Frustrated. > :: Bill Baka > > I used to weigh 367 lbs. I lost 140+ lbs. You can't make someone else > lose weight (assuming you're not willing to lock them in a room and > control what they eat). It has to come from inside them. You're fighting > a losing game there, Billy boy. If he really wanted to lose weight, he > has everything needed to do so but the desire. Sorry. At 300 pounds he is working twice as hard as you doing the same speed. I would suggest you carry 150 pound weights just to make it even then you also must consider his normal exercise routine compared to yours. Which I guess is nil. Was it good for you?                   Date: 25 Feb 2007 22:22:09 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries nash wrote: > "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:12u38ut1ombkc5c@news.supernews.com... >> >> I used to weigh 367 lbs. I lost 140+ lbs. You can't make someone else >> lose weight (assuming you're not willing to lock them in a room and >> control what they eat). It has to come from inside them. You're fighting >> a losing game there, Billy boy. If he really wanted to lose weight, he >> has everything needed to do so but the desire. Sorry. > At 300 pounds he is working twice as hard as you doing the same speed. > I would suggest you carry 150 pound weights just to make it even then you > also must consider his normal exercise routine compared to yours. Which I > guess is nil. > Was it good for you? Any ride is better than any day stuck inside for me. Right now the weather is messing with me here in California. Rain, wind, sun, more wind, rain mixed with patches of sun, etc. Makes any kind of layering almost impossible. As for 'Spanky' (Larry) I have ridden the bike over to his house many times but wind up doing something on the computer instead. I have talked up the new trail and the best I have gotten from him is to throw the bikes in his pickup and drive the mile and a half to the beginning of the trail. Could be a hopeless quest. Bill Baka                     Date: 25 Feb 2007 23:27:35 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:l_nEh.1858$M65.999@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... > nash wrote: >> "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:12u38ut1ombkc5c@news.supernews.com... >>> >>> I used to weigh 367 lbs. I lost 140+ lbs. You can't make someone else >>> lose weight (assuming you're not willing to lock them in a room and >>> control what they eat). It has to come from inside them. You're >>> fighting a losing game there, Billy boy. If he really wanted to lose >>> weight, he has everything needed to do so but the desire. Sorry. >> At 300 pounds he is working twice as hard as you doing the same speed. >> I would suggest you carry 150 pound weights just to make it even then you >> also must consider his normal exercise routine compared to yours. Which >> I guess is nil. >> Was it good for you? > > Any ride is better than any day stuck inside for me. Right now the weather > is messing with me here in California. Rain, wind, sun, more wind, rain > mixed with patches of sun, etc. Makes any kind of layering almost > impossible. As for 'Spanky' (Larry) I have ridden the bike over to his > house many times but wind up doing something on the computer instead. > I have talked up the new trail and the best I have gotten from him is to > throw the bikes in his pickup and drive the mile and a half to the > beginning of the trail. > Could be a hopeless quest. > Bill Baka Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3101 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                       Date: 28 Feb 2007 03:21:10 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > > Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, > remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a LSEB > with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a bit out > of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. > I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 years older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way to get him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will just have to at least try it. Bill Baka                         Date: 28 Feb 2007 10:18:23 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:Gy6Fh.1447$LF6.1419@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> >> Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, >> remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a >> LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a >> bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. >> > I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 years > older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way to get > him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will just have to > at least try it. > Bill Baka Just keep me posted. Anything I can do to help just ask. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3420 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                           Date: 01 Mar 2007 18:32:35 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:Gy6Fh.1447$LF6.1419@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, >>> remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a >>> LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a >>> bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. >>> >> I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 years >> older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way to get >> him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will just have to >> at least try it. >> Bill Baka > > Just keep me posted. Anything I can do to help just ask. > > > Well, he's here now and wants to do the Cannondale so I will see how it goes. His main concern right now is a comfy seat. Bill Baka                             Date: 02 Mar 2007 13:16:39 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:7%EFh.3297$BE2.2520@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:Gy6Fh.1447$LF6.1419@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>> Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, >>>> remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a >>>> LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a >>>> bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. >>>> >>> I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 years >>> older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way to get >>> him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will just have >>> to at least try it. >>> Bill Baka >> >> Just keep me posted. Anything I can do to help just ask. >> >> >> > Well, he's here now and wants to do the Cannondale so I will see how it > goes. His main concern right now is a comfy seat. > Bill Baka Just one thing, think BIG AND WIDE. That should do the trick (grin) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3607 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                               Date: 03 Mar 2007 20:20:57 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:7%EFh.3297$BE2.2520@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:Gy6Fh.1447$LF6.1419@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>>> Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. But, >>>>> remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to build a >>>>> LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. Yes, that's a >>>>> bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for you as well. >>>>> >>>> I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 years >>>> older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way to get >>>> him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will just have >>>> to at least try it. >>>> Bill Baka >>> Just keep me posted. Anything I can do to help just ask. >>> >>> >>> >> Well, he's here now and wants to do the Cannondale so I will see how it >> goes. His main concern right now is a comfy seat. >> Bill Baka > > Just one thing, think BIG AND WIDE. That should do the trick (grin) > You are actually right on this one. He wants to find a seat that has springs built in and he mentioned trying to find one off an old Harley(?) or cruiser bike. I'm getting closer. Bill Baka                                 Date: 03 Mar 2007 15:44:06 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:JMkGh.4538$M65.3957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:7%EFh.3297$BE2.2520@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:Gy6Fh.1447$LF6.1419@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>>>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>>>> Bill, don't give up on him. Who knows, you may be saving a life. >>>>>> But, remember, don't make it work. Make it fun. You might wish to >>>>>> build a LSEB with 3 wheels from a Recumbent and let him ride it. >>>>>> Yes, that's a bit out of your own pocket but it just might be fun for >>>>>> you as well. >>>>>> >>>>> I'm not giving up since I can, and do, call him 'kid' since I am 4 >>>>> years older. Getting him involved in a project build up may be one way >>>>> to get him motivated. If we build a work of art (or not art) he will >>>>> just have to at least try it. >>>>> Bill Baka >>>> Just keep me posted. Anything I can do to help just ask. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Well, he's here now and wants to do the Cannondale so I will see how it >>> goes. His main concern right now is a comfy seat. >>> Bill Baka >> >> Just one thing, think BIG AND WIDE. That should do the trick (grin) >> > You are actually right on this one. He wants to find a seat that has > springs built in and he mentioned trying to find one off an old Harley(?) > or cruiser bike. > I'm getting closer. > Bill Baka I haven't seen a seat like that in decades. I believe that Swinn used to have something like that. But you also might consider a seat post that is cushioned. I think I saw something like that in a bike shop once. If not, ask the bike shop. They might know how to get one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3775 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                   Date: 04 Mar 2007 17:26:51 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:JMkGh.4538$M65.3957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:7%EFh.3297$BE2.2520@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >>>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> Just one thing, think BIG AND WIDE. That should do the trick (grin) >>> >> You are actually right on this one. He wants to find a seat that has >> springs built in and he mentioned trying to find one off an old Harley(?) >> or cruiser bike. >> I'm getting closer. >> Bill Baka > > I haven't seen a seat like that in decades. I believe that Swinn used to > have something like that. But you also might consider a seat post that is > cushioned. I think I saw something like that in a bike shop once. If not, > ask the bike shop. They might know how to get one. > Actually he probably does have one since he has a full 8' x 16' shed of nothing but motorcycles and bike parts. There 3 full motorcycles in there he hasn't seen in about ten years. Also 3 brand new crate motors for some bikes, and an untold number of bicycle parts. Some weekend soon we will have to spend at least a few days just to find out what is in there, then it's time for a digital camera and Ebay for about a month. Then, he won't have any excuses, I hope. Bill                                     Date: 04 Mar 2007 16:30:11 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:vjDGh.6462$BE2.775@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:JMkGh.4538$M65.3957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... >>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:7%EFh.3297$BE2.2520@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >>>>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>> Just one thing, think BIG AND WIDE. That should do the trick (grin) >>>> >>> You are actually right on this one. He wants to find a seat that has >>> springs built in and he mentioned trying to find one off an old >>> Harley(?) or cruiser bike. >>> I'm getting closer. >>> Bill Baka >> >> I haven't seen a seat like that in decades. I believe that Swinn used to >> have something like that. But you also might consider a seat post that >> is cushioned. I think I saw something like that in a bike shop once. If >> not, ask the bike shop. They might know how to get one. >> > Actually he probably does have one since he has a full 8' x 16' shed of > nothing but motorcycles and bike parts. There 3 full motorcycles in there > he hasn't seen in about ten years. Also 3 brand new crate motors for some > bikes, and an untold number of bicycle parts. > Some weekend soon we will have to spend at least a few days just to find > out what is in there, then it's time for a digital camera and Ebay for > about a month. > Then, he won't have any excuses, I hope. > Bill Help him do a complete inventory of what he has. After that, a bike ride won't seem so bad to him (grin) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3799 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                       Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:18:24 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:vjDGh.6462$BE2.775@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >> Actually he probably does have one since he has a full 8' x 16' shed of >> nothing but motorcycles and bike parts. There 3 full motorcycles in there >> he hasn't seen in about ten years. Also 3 brand new crate motors for some >> bikes, and an untold number of bicycle parts. >> Some weekend soon we will have to spend at least a few days just to find >> out what is in there, then it's time for a digital camera and Ebay for >> about a month. >> Then, he won't have any excuses, I hope. >> Bill > > Help him do a complete inventory of what he has. After that, a bike ride > won't seem so bad to him (grin) > I can hope. I need a good outdoors project anyway, and NOT yard work. Ugh. Bill Baka                     Date: 26 Feb 2007 04:35:49 From: nash Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:l_nEh.1858$M65.999@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... > nash wrote: >> "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:12u38ut1ombkc5c@news.supernews.com... >>> >>> I used to weigh 367 lbs. I lost 140+ lbs. You can't make someone else >>> lose weight (assuming you're not willing to lock them in a room and >>> control what they eat). It has to come from inside them. You're >>> fighting a losing game there, Billy boy. If he really wanted to lose >>> weight, he has everything needed to do so but the desire. Sorry. >> At 300 pounds he is working twice as hard as you doing the same speed. >> I would suggest you carry 150 pound weights just to make it even then you >> also must consider his normal exercise routine compared to yours. Which >> I guess is nil. >> Was it good for you? > > Any ride is better than any day stuck inside for me. Right now the weather > is messing with me here in California. Rain, wind, sun, more wind, rain > mixed with patches of sun, etc. Makes any kind of layering almost > impossible. As for 'Spanky' (Larry) I have ridden the bike over to his > house many times but wind up doing something on the computer instead. > I have talked up the new trail and the best I have gotten from him is to > throw the bikes in his pickup and drive the mile and a half to the > beginning of the trail. > Could be a hopeless quest. > Bill Baka Well, at least it is a start. I had the same problem with my 300 lb female friend. Could not get her to go swimming either because of the walk to the pool from the parking lot. To her credit though she had some nasty injuries I do not know how she could cope with. You could still ride the 1.5 m. See how it goes and add on. Zen                       Date: 28 Feb 2007 03:18:13 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries nash wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:l_nEh.1858$M65.999@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net... >> Any ride is better than any day stuck inside for me. Right now the weather >> is messing with me here in California. Rain, wind, sun, more wind, rain >> mixed with patches of sun, etc. Makes any kind of layering almost >> impossible. As for 'Spanky' (Larry) I have ridden the bike over to his >> house many times but wind up doing something on the computer instead. >> I have talked up the new trail and the best I have gotten from him is to >> throw the bikes in his pickup and drive the mile and a half to the >> beginning of the trail. >> Could be a hopeless quest. >> Bill Baka > > Well, at least it is a start. I had the same problem with my 300 lb female > friend. Could not get her to go swimming either because of the walk to the > pool from the parking lot. To her credit though she had some nasty injuries > I do not know how she could cope with. > You could still ride the 1.5 m. See how it goes and add on. > > Zen > > That may well be the starting point, just to ride to the trail start. We will have to weave through some traffic and lights but he can do that after some of the motorcycle riding we have done together. He doesn't have any injuries but he is the kind of guy who will circle the parking lot 3 times looking for a parking place near the door. My work is cut out for me. Bill Baka               Date: 21 Feb 2007 09:45:08 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:LJPCh.26149$zH1.16737@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> >> The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The >> 26 in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do >> have to watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, >> I can only get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test >> weight. If you go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased >> your torque but lower your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs >> in at over 300 lbs. Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque >> needed. But the 16 will. This is why I suggest the steel framed >> recumbent. >> > All the points you make are valid, but I have known 'Spanky' since he was > 26 and 300 pounds. He got the label of Spanky after the fat kid on the old > (1930's) Little Rascals, or Our Gang, depending on when or if you ever > watched that old stuff. He tells me this is his 'natural' weight since he > is a food addict. There is a nice Cannondale in his garage or somewhere, > but he has 6 cars, 5 motorcycles, 6 computers, and the list of stuff just > goes on. He is a hopeless pack rack so he also has a Trek in the back yard > but knows better than to even try to get on it. 18 MPH is about my max > cruising speed on my power, 15 is better for me, since I ride mostly a 26" > mountain bike with street slicks for the road riding. I don't think I will > ever get him on anything but flat pavement, but I need to get him a kick > in the rear to get going. > If there is a kit that we could take on as a project, I know I can get him > involved in a build up. He plans on staying at 300 and I plan on getting > back down to my summer 145, yet he is only about 3 inches taller than me. > Our first trip is going to be about 7 miles each way and I have a feeling > that it will be a long day. 7 miles each way. That would tax a 2 wheeled LSEB at his body weight. But if you got him to scale up and pedal half the distance it just might make it. If you choose a 2 wheel, choose a Cruiser 26 in for him. NO suspension and steel construction. Swinn makes a nice old style from 200 bucks and up. Check out your local bike shops for that one. > > Any motivational pointers will be appreciated. > I have already tried the 'heart attack' card but he seems to feel it can't > happen to him. > Famous last words. > I don't think I could have a heart attack if I tried, but he can't say the > same thing. > Frustrated. > Bill Baka Try the FUN angle. I have people ride mine and they find it fun. I also show them the Chopper version and they fall over themselves to ride that one. While my MB LSEB is just transporation, the Chopper is just plain FUN. And your buddy wouldn't overload it. REAL heavy steel construction, more spokes on the rear wheel than normal, 3 inch tires based on a 20 in hub that is just a bit wider than the normal one. And something like that looks like a chopper with the batteries mounted like an engine in the frame rather than on a carrier over the rear wheel. There isn't room since the rider sits partly over the rear wheel. In otherwords, use your imagination and make it fun. And check out http://lsebicycle.com/jjchopper.html Print it out and show him. He sounds like a MC fan afterall. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2571 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                 Date: 21 Feb 2007 23:56:40 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:LJPCh.26149$zH1.16737@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >>> The thing to remember is, the same hub is used on all wheel sizes. The >>> 26 in has the lowest torque but the highest attainable speed. You do >>> have to watch out that you don't exceed the top legal speed. Of course, >>> I can only get 18 mph out of it due to my extra 70 lbs above the test >>> weight. If you go smaller (like the 20 or the 16) then you increased >>> your torque but lower your highest attainable speed. Your buddy weighs >>> in at over 300 lbs. Chances are, the 26 may not develop the torque >>> needed. But the 16 will. This is why I suggest the steel framed >>> recumbent. >>> >> All the points you make are valid, but I have known 'Spanky' since he was >> 26 and 300 pounds. He got the label of Spanky after the fat kid on the old >> (1930's) Little Rascals, or Our Gang, depending on when or if you ever >> watched that old stuff. He tells me this is his 'natural' weight since he >> is a food addict. There is a nice Cannondale in his garage or somewhere, >> but he has 6 cars, 5 motorcycles, 6 computers, and the list of stuff just >> goes on. He is a hopeless pack rack so he also has a Trek in the back yard >> but knows better than to even try to get on it. 18 MPH is about my max >> cruising speed on my power, 15 is better for me, since I ride mostly a 26" >> mountain bike with street slicks for the road riding. I don't think I will >> ever get him on anything but flat pavement, but I need to get him a kick >> in the rear to get going. >> If there is a kit that we could take on as a project, I know I can get him >> involved in a build up. He plans on staying at 300 and I plan on getting >> back down to my summer 145, yet he is only about 3 inches taller than me. >> Our first trip is going to be about 7 miles each way and I have a feeling >> that it will be a long day. > > 7 miles each way. That would tax a 2 wheeled LSEB at his body weight. But > if you got him to scale up and pedal half the distance it just might make > it. If you choose a 2 wheel, choose a Cruiser 26 in for him. NO suspension > and steel construction. Swinn makes a nice old style from 200 bucks and up. > Check out your local bike shops for that one. I have and our local 'ex' Schwinn dealer is now just a rip off LBS. A half mile down the road is our original LBS, an independent who also happens to be a nice guy and a walking encyclopedia of information. He has a few $100 el-cheapos for the few that think Wal-t is a bad place to buy a bike, which it is unless you buy the bike in the shipping box and assemble it yourself. He assembles an $80 Wal t type bike and sells them for about $100 to cover his labor, but those are just the teaser bikes. His 'average' bike is about $750 and they do go into the mid thousands for those so inclined. He had one bike in the shop that had me baffled, a 20" rear wheel that was at least 3", maybe 4" wide with a long 2 or even 3 person stretch seat, and a raked front end, chopper style. It looked totally impractical yet he said he had sold some both to kids (spoiled) and a few adults in the over 200 pound category. Spanky could ride that but I think he will try his Cannondale which he says will hold him. No jumps or bumps and he might make it. > > >> Any motivational pointers will be appreciated. >> I have already tried the 'heart attack' card but he seems to feel it can't >> happen to him. >> Famous last words. >> I don't think I could have a heart attack if I tried, but he can't say the >> same thing. >> Frustrated. >> Bill Baka > > Try the FUN angle. I have people ride mine and they find it fun. I also > show them the Chopper version and they fall over themselves to ride that > one. While my MB LSEB is just transporation, the Chopper is just plain FUN. > And your buddy wouldn't overload it. REAL heavy steel construction, more > spokes on the rear wheel than normal, 3 inch tires based on a 20 in hub that > is just a bit wider than the normal one. And something like that looks like > a chopper with the batteries mounted like an engine in the frame rather than > on a carrier over the rear wheel. There isn't room since the rider sits > partly over the rear wheel. In otherwords, use your imagination and make it > fun. That sounds like the chopper bike I saw except for the motor part. And check out > > http://lsebicycle.com/jjchopper.html > > Print it out and show him. He sounds like a MC fan afterall. I'll send him the link. We used to race motorcycles around our local mountain range, the Sutter Buttes, so we are both MC inclined and like our corners at 100 MPH while doing so. He has an actual Eddie Lawson racing Kawasaki 900 from the 70's, not a replica, that is worth over $15,000, but he won't part with it. Nice bike, but actually not fast enough for my liking since it only does 140 MPH (with him on it). Sorry, I'm thinking about getting another ridiculously fast motorcycle again. 170++. I know, my bad. Bill Baka   Date: 14 Feb 2007 16:04:53 From: optibike Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Jan 31, 12:04 pm, Bill Baka <b...@comcast.net > wrote: > OldGirl wrote: > > A couple of clarifications: > > > 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric > > motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a bicycle. > > This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, some > > require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited to > > 20 mph is a bike. > > > 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles on a > > charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary batteries). The rider > > has to make a significant pedalling contribution for the charge to last that > > long, and fully loaded with auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, but > > it does pretty much look like a mountain bike. Here is the link: > >http://www.optibike.com/ > > I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has > a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative > braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. They are also > making flaky claims like it was in a 103 mile ride, but (small print) > with a battery change. > The keting guys are burying the truth in hype, as usual. > Bill Baka Hey Bill, I am glad to hear that more people are discussing Optibikes. I am the keting guy, and the guy that rode the 103 miles in 4 hours; and we did not do a battery change. The new Optibikes weigh in at ~ 67 lbs and have a range of 50 miles or so. For this ride, I used a soon to be released Li-Poly prototype. BUT, for a full suspension mountain bike that can carry a non-cyclist along at Tour De France speeds, we are getting people on bikes that have not ridden in years. The event that I rode the 103 miles in was the 2006 Tour de Sol, a regulated event that does not allow battery swapping. A note on regen: We have found that by putting the motor in the Bottom Bracket, we keep the wheels light (a crucial step for any high- performance application) and we simply augment the most efficient means of transportation on the planet (the bicycle). A hub motor is wrong for many reasons (fixed gear ratio, heavy wheels, etc) So, my point is, that regen makes sense with a 1200 lb car where there is more force to regen with. With a 67 lb bike + rider, what you have to sacrifice to get back a few watts makes no sense at all. Our bike can cruise at nearly 35 mph, has climbed Pikes Peak, and has the absolute longest run time and range of any E-bike. Sure, E-bikes are not for everyone but for some people they provide a way to get out and have some good clean fun. Sure, there is the hype. But we are 100% honest in our claims and have made videos to prove it. We are fighting an uphill battle however because many other manufacturers are full of it. Cheers, Craig Weakley keting Director Optibike LLC 303.443.0932 www.optibike.com     Date: 15 Feb 2007 21:38:51 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries optibike wrote: > On Jan 31, 12:04 pm, Bill Baka <b...@comcast.net> wrote: >> The keting guys are burying the truth in hype, as usual. >> Bill Baka > > Hey Bill, > > I am glad to hear that more people are discussing Optibikes. I am the > keting guy, and the guy that rode the 103 miles in 4 hours; and we > did not do a battery change. The new Optibikes weigh in at ~ 67 lbs > and have a range of 50 miles or so. For this ride, I used a soon to be > released Li-Poly prototype. BUT, for a full suspension mountain bike > that can carry a non-cyclist along at Tour De France speeds, we are > getting people on bikes that have not ridden in years. The event that > I rode the 103 miles in was the 2006 Tour de Sol, a regulated event > that does not allow battery swapping. I am glad to see someone from the factory chipping in and clarifying. What seems to have been ignored by everyone is the fact that a lot of electrical bikes out there are still using Centuries old Lead-Acid batteries. They are soon to be history due to lead content, as are NiCads. NiMh are the cheapest new tech way to go, but Lithium-Polymers are the dominant (if expensive) way to go right now. > > A note on regen: We have found that by putting the motor in the > Bottom Bracket, we keep the wheels light (a crucial step for any high- > performance application) and we simply augment the most efficient > means of transportation on the planet (the bicycle). A hub motor is > wrong for many reasons (fixed gear ratio, heavy wheels, etc) So, my > point is, that regen makes sense with a 1200 lb car where there is > more force to regen with. With a 67 lb bike + rider, what you have to > sacrifice to get back a few watts makes no sense at all. Does that mean that the rider is forced to pedal or is there a free wheel built into your bottom bracket?? > > Our bike can cruise at nearly 35 mph, has climbed Pikes Peak, and has > the absolute longest run time and range of any E-bike. Sure, E-bikes > are not for everyone but for some people they provide a way to get out > and have some good clean fun. If you have climbed Pikes Peak, then doesn't regen make sense for mountain rides? Coming back down that road even sitting upright for wind resistance can be a bit more life threatening than using A; brakes, of B; regen. > > Sure, there is the hype. But we are 100% honest in our claims and > have made videos to prove it. We are fighting an uphill battle > however because many other manufacturers are full of it. I am with you most of the way, in particular the gearing issue. However, just as with A/C induction motors that may run at 3600, 1800, 1200, or even 900 RPM as a matter of phases (or divisions of 60 Hz) why not a DC motor with electronics to control it, or even an A/C motor with an electronic control? I'm an engineer, so I think it can be done, but I have never been in keting so I don't know if you could push that, or what the added cost would be. Good luck, Bill Baka > > Cheers, > > Craig Weakley > keting Director > Optibike LLC > 303.443.0932 > www.optibike.com >     Date: 14 Feb 2007 20:43:29 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "optibike" <craig@optibike.com > wrote in message news:1171497893.254887.69650@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > On Jan 31, 12:04 pm, Bill Baka <b...@comcast.net> wrote: >> OldGirl wrote: >> > A couple of clarifications: >> >> > 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an >> > electric >> > motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a >> > bicycle. >> > This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, >> > some >> > require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike >> > limited to >> > 20 mph is a bike. >> >> > 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles on a >> > charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary batteries). The >> > rider >> > has to make a significant pedalling contribution for the charge to last >> > that >> > long, and fully loaded with auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, >> > but >> > it does pretty much look like a mountain bike. Here is the link: >> >http://www.optibike.com/ >> >> I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has >> a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative >> braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. They are also >> making flaky claims like it was in a 103 mile ride, but (small print) >> with a battery change. >> The keting guys are burying the truth in hype, as usual. >> Bill Baka > > Hey Bill, > > I am glad to hear that more people are discussing Optibikes. I am the > keting guy, and the guy that rode the 103 miles in 4 hours; and we > did not do a battery change. The new Optibikes weigh in at ~ 67 lbs > and have a range of 50 miles or so. For this ride, I used a soon to be > released Li-Poly prototype. BUT, for a full suspension mountain bike > that can carry a non-cyclist along at Tour De France speeds, we are > getting people on bikes that have not ridden in years. The event that > I rode the 103 miles in was the 2006 Tour de Sol, a regulated event > that does not allow battery swapping. > > A note on regen: We have found that by putting the motor in the > Bottom Bracket, we keep the wheels light (a crucial step for any high- > performance application) and we simply augment the most efficient > means of transportation on the planet (the bicycle). A hub motor is > wrong for many reasons (fixed gear ratio, heavy wheels, etc) So, my > point is, that regen makes sense with a 1200 lb car where there is > more force to regen with. With a 67 lb bike + rider, what you have to > sacrifice to get back a few watts makes no sense at all. > > Our bike can cruise at nearly 35 mph, has climbed Pikes Peak, and has > the absolute longest run time and range of any E-bike. Sure, E-bikes > are not for everyone but for some people they provide a way to get out > and have some good clean fun. > > Sure, there is the hype. But we are 100% honest in our claims and > have made videos to prove it. We are fighting an uphill battle > however because many other manufacturers are full of it. > > Cheers, > > Craig Weakley > keting Director > Optibike LLC > 303.443.0932 > www.optibike.com And it does not meet the Low Speed Electric Bicycle nor the NHTA. This means that it's illegal in most states to be ridden since it's too fast for the LSEB and doesn't have the proper safety and construction for a Motorized Vehicle including the 49cc Motorized Bicycle laws. In Colorado, the Optibike could only be operated on Private Property and not on Public Property (this includes the roadways and sidewalks) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1746 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!   Date: 31 Jan 2007 10:32:43 From: DougC Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > That's about a 5X improvement over what anyone else can manage, with relatively-small batteries.... -unless he's using five times the normal amount of batteries, that is (~100-150 lbs of batteries). Or unless he found a really-long hill to test it out on. Advancements DO occur, but honestly--the ket for e-bikes is really rather tiny. There's lots of other uses that such an improvement would be far more profitable in (just for one example, I'm typing on one now: laptop-computer batteries and laptop-computer cooling fans). Also, a lot of e-bikes are limited to 20 mph because that's the US federal specification for an e-bike. > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... > Well, the event can just say "no motorized bikes allowed". The insurance may not even cover them. ~   Date: 31 Jan 2007 06:32:38 From: Bill Bushnell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In rec.bicycles.misc Mike Jacoubowsky <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. I see fewer electric bikes than recumbents on the road. Sounds like the newspaper is trying to drum up interest. But, I think electric bicycles have a place if it results in fewer motor vehicle trips or keeps someone from abandoning bicycling. In any event, the number of followups to this thread indicate a degree of interest. > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. I happen to know that it requires about 400 watts at the wheel to propel one particular semi-faired recumbent similar to the one described in the article at a speed of 30 mph on level ground. To sustain this speed on level ground for three hours and twenty minutes (100 miles) without pedaling would be possible with about 40-50 lbs of the most energy-dense Lithium-Ion batteries commercially available today. On a course with hills the most efficient way for a fit cyclist to use a power assist is on uphills only. When used only on uphills to supplement significant pedaling effort, battery energy consumption of approximately 350 watt-hours per 5000 feet climbing can be observed. > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... As an organizer of a non-competitive and non-timed event I'd be concerned about the following: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily prior to lifting)? 3) ICE (internal combustion engine) assists would not be welcome. -- Bill Bushnell http://pobox.com/~bushnell/     Date: 31 Jan 2007 09:00:59 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On 31 Jan 2007 06:32:38 GMT, Bill Bushnell <mrbill@pobox.com > wrote: >As an organizer of a non-competitive and non-timed event I'd be concerned about >the following: > >1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power assisted bicycle >intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? > >2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle if it had to >be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily prior to lifting)? > >3) ICE (internal combustion engine) assists would not be welcome. 1) and 2) don't make sense. Plenty of unassisted bicycle riders ride irresponsibly. One of the major issues at some fund raisers, for instance, is the number of inexperienced riders that think the rules of the road have been lifted because the Heart Association or the Cancer Fund sponsor the ride. A disclaimer will work as well, for good or bad, as for a bicycle. As to 2), its enough to set the rules of the sag. We've had to tell tandem riders that there was no sag wagon capable of taking a tandem (much less a tandem recumbent) and if they were picked up, it would be up to them to store the bike somewhere until they came back to pick it up. FWIW, that happens on real sags (I've done well, well over a hundred) with regular bikes when your car or van is full and all you have room for is the rider. You give them a choice and they make it. No ride guarantees the riders a perfect riding experience. The best you can do is make sure the course has no distinctly unsafe areas, the turns are ked well, and you keep the sags going until you know the course is clear. People deal - I remember being a sag on a major ride that was hit by an unexpected deluge - almost literally. We were making unsafe vehicle crossings to get to some of the stranded cyclists near the creeks and rivers. Rekably, most complaints were that once they got back to the tent, they had to run about 100 feet through the rain to get to the portapotties. Fortunately, we didn't run out of beer... (the tough choice was, if I drink another beer, I'll have to eventually run through the rain again. The resolution generally was, what the hell, I'm already wet.) Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...     Date: 31 Jan 2007 07:38:19 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Bushnell wrote: :: In rec.bicycles.misc Mike Jacoubowsky <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote: ::: As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News ::: about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations ::: (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), ::: I'm thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, ::: expensive to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes ::: etc. :: :: I see fewer electric bikes than recumbents on the road. Sounds like :: the newspaper is trying to drum up interest. But, I think electric :: bicycles have a place if it results in fewer motor vehicle trips or :: keeps someone from abandoning bicycling. In any event, the number :: of followups to this thread indicate a degree of interest. :: ::: Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design ::: he's trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a ::: charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. :: :: I happen to know that it requires about 400 watts at the wheel to :: propel one particular semi-faired recumbent similar to the one :: described in the article at a speed of 30 mph on level ground. To :: sustain this speed on level ground for three hours and twenty :: minutes (100 miles) without pedaling would be possible with about :: 40-50 lbs of the most energy-dense Lithium-Ion batteries :: commercially available today. :: :: On a course with hills the most efficient way for a fit cyclist to :: use a power assist is on uphills only. When used only on uphills to :: supplement significant pedaling effort, battery energy consumption :: of approximately 350 watt-hours per 5000 feet climbing can be :: observed. :: ::: What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, ::: for that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So ::: far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no ::: longer an issue... :: :: As an organizer of a non-competitive and non-timed event I'd be :: concerned about the following: :: :: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power :: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias? :: :: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle :: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily :: prior to lifting)? :: At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff were female. And small, too. Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts? Of course, I wonder how this compares to sagging my lwb 'bent? That thing won't fit on a typical bike rack and with the seat it may not fit in a lot of cars if you remove the front wheel. :: 3) ICE (internal combustion engine) assists would not be welcome. :: Yeah.       Date: 31 Jan 2007 08:02:52 From: Bill Bushnell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In article <12s13765rfeu013@news.supernews.com >, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: > :: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power > :: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? > > Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias? Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they really want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and operators would fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor and enough batteries on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An operator of such a vehicle may be more interested in speed and if ridden ridden to that end could be a hazard to the other participants. > :: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle > :: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily > :: prior to lifting)? > :: > > At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a > serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff > were female. And small, too. > > Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts? I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG driver to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack. Remove the batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be an effort for some. The electric bike designed as a stealth motorcycle, laden with batteries, is more likely to require SAG because the range of such a machine will likely be limited. -- Bill Bushnell http://pobox.com/~bushnell/         Date: 31 Jan 2007 18:00:16 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Bushnell wrote: :: In article <12s13765rfeu013@news.supernews.com >, :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::::: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power ::::: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? ::: ::: Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias? :: :: Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they :: really want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and :: operators would fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor :: and enough batteries on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An :: operator of such a vehicle may be more interested in speed and if :: ridden ridden to that end could be a hazard to the other :: participants. :: ::::: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle ::::: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily ::::: prior to lifting)? ::::: ::: ::: At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this ::: would be a serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the ::: some of the sag staff were female. And small, too. ::: ::: Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts? :: :: I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG :: driver to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack. :: Remove the batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be :: an effort for some. The electric bike designed as a stealth :: motorcycle, laden with batteries, is more likely to require SAG :: because the range of such a machine will likely be limited. Yeah, that exactly what I was thinking....removing a wheel is one thing, but anything beyond that is a bit much. :: :: -- :: Bill Bushnell :: http://pobox.com/~bushnell/         Date: 31 Jan 2007 19:15:33 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Bushnell wrote: > In article <12s13765rfeu013@news.supernews.com>, > "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> :: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power >> :: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner? >> >> Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias? > > Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they really > want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and operators would > fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor and enough batteries > on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An operator of such a vehicle may > be more interested in speed and if ridden ridden to that end could be a > hazard to the other participants. > >> :: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle >> :: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily >> :: prior to lifting)? >> :: >> >> At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a >> serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff >> were female. And small, too. >> >> Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts? > > I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG driver > to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack. Remove the > batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be an effort for > some. The electric bike designed as a stealth motorcycle, laden with > batteries, is more likely to require SAG because the range of such a > machine will likely be limited. > I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the van was already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent in would have been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little busy collecting wet and frozen cyclists. Bill Baka           Date: 31 Jan 2007 18:01:24 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the van :: was already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent in would :: have been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little busy :: collecting wet and frozen cyclists. :: Bill Baka Some 'bents require no more space than your typical bike, even less for some.             Date: 01 Feb 2007 00:39:08 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > > :: I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the van > :: was already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent in would > :: have been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little busy > :: collecting wet and frozen cyclists. > :: Bill Baka > > Some 'bents require no more space than your typical bike, even less for > some. > > Are you talking about folding bents? A bent bent? There is one guy in my area who uses a bent and it is definitely about twice as big as any of my bikes. What I remember most is the God awful long second chain from the front pedals and gears to the rear. I don't think that would bend. Any examples in mind? Bill Baka               Date: 01 Feb 2007 08:24:58 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Bill Baka wrote: ::: ::::: I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the ::::: van was already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent ::::: in would have been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little ::::: busy collecting wet and frozen cyclists. ::::: Bill Baka ::: ::: Some 'bents require no more space than your typical bike, even less ::: for some. ::: ::: :: Are you talking about folding bents? No, not in particular. A bent bent? There is one guy :: in my area who uses a bent and it is definitely about twice as big :: as any of my bikes. What I remember most is the God awful long :: second chain from the front pedals and gears to the rear. Mine has a very long chain...I call it a monster 'bent! :) :: I don't think that would bend. :: Any examples in mind? There are plenty of SWB bents around that are about the size of a normal bike or even shorter. The handle bars are about the size of road bike bars or smaller. http://imageevent.com/aero92/vk2 Some have front wheel drive and thus don't have the long chain. There is a LOT of variation in the 'bent world. I got mine only because I like the different experience of riding one. I still ride my road bike, though this winter I've only been on the 'bent (just getting use to the handling characteristic, since they are different). :: Bill Baka                 Date: 01 Feb 2007 19:25:46 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Bill Baka wrote: > ::: > ::::: I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the > ::::: van was already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent > ::::: in would have been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little > ::::: busy collecting wet and frozen cyclists. > ::::: Bill Baka > ::: > ::: Some 'bents require no more space than your typical bike, even less > ::: for some. > ::: > ::: > :: Are you talking about folding bents? > > No, not in particular. > > A bent bent? There is one guy > :: in my area who uses a bent and it is definitely about twice as big > :: as any of my bikes. What I remember most is the God awful long > :: second chain from the front pedals and gears to the rear. > > Mine has a very long chain...I call it a monster 'bent! :) > > :: I don't think that would bend. > :: Any examples in mind? > > There are plenty of SWB bents around that are about the size of a normal > bike or even shorter. The handle bars are about the size of road bike bars > or smaller. > > http://imageevent.com/aero92/vk2 > > Some have front wheel drive and thus don't have the long chain. > > There is a LOT of variation in the 'bent world. > > I got mine only because I like the different experience of riding one. I > still ride my road bike, though this winter I've only been on the 'bent > (just getting use to the handling characteristic, since they are different). > > :: Bill Baka > > I went to the site and those bents were definitely shorter than the one I saw, and yes, would probably fit into a SAG wagon or car. The guy I saw had a bent that was about half again longer than those on the site you posted above. It did have the front gear setup but had two chains, so I don't know what to compare it with. Kind of like a limo versus a plain old Cadillac. I might look at buying one someday for sit bone relief if I start doing half Centuries again in the summer. Thanks for the educational input. Bill Baka                 Date: 01 Feb 2007 08:57:58 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:24:58 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: >There are plenty of SWB bents around that are about the size of a normal >bike or even shorter. The handle bars are about the size of road bike bars >or smaller. What you say is true, but as a generality, bents take up more room. Even the typical SWB takes up more because a diamond frame front end allows (in general) more flexibility in getting a bike into different spaces. I've loaded a fair number of bents on racks and in vans and (in general) they are more difficult than DFs. And, of course, by the time you get three or so bents, you have a variety that won't accomodate the others. DFs (in general) have the same essential configuration and can accomodate each other well, especially when loading into a van. That said, I still have a folding Linear recumbent that can fit just about anywhere. Just make sure you have the front wheel locked into place before you start out on your ride. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...                   Date: 01 Feb 2007 09:58:46 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:24:58 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::: There are plenty of SWB bents around that are about the size of a ::: normal bike or even shorter. The handle bars are about the size of ::: road bike bars or smaller. :: :: What you say is true, but as a generality, bents take up more room. :: Even the typical SWB takes up more because a diamond frame front end :: allows (in general) more flexibility in getting a bike into different :: spaces. I've loaded a fair number of bents on racks and in vans and :: (in general) they are more difficult than DFs. And, of course, by the :: time you get three or so bents, you have a variety that won't :: accomodate the others. DFs (in general) have the same essential :: configuration and can accomodate each other well, especially when :: loading into a van. :: My experience with sags (limited, I admit) is that only a few bikes are in the "wagon" at time and they generally go between reststops. So, one of these "small" bents would likely not be a loading problem. It's not as if you're going to fill a space with as many bikes as you can. :: That said, I still have a folding Linear recumbent that can fit just :: about anywhere. Just make sure you have the front wheel locked into :: place before you start out on your ride. A folder would be nice. I assume you can fly with it, right? I'd like one of those....one day! :)                     Date: 01 Feb 2007 11:14:53 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:58:46 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: >My experience with sags (limited, I admit) is that only a few bikes are in >the "wagon" at time and they generally go between reststops. So, one of >these "small" bents would likely not be a loading problem. It's not as if >you're going to fill a space with as many bikes as you can. On a few large rides I've filled vans and pickups. However, true, it isn't a problem - for one thing, you don't have just one sag. Large multiride events are the most likely times for one van filling up. where one sag has t cover a hundred riders or more ad does a trailing sag all the way. Even then you can run back and empty, even though it will be a while before you catch back up (people that have never done sag for some reason think that covering a 50 mile loop is almost instantaneous in a car). As I mentioned in an earlier post, its not a problem for the sagwagon even then. The person on the side of the road can be given three choices, more or less, when the sag is near full - stash your bike and take this sag back to the start/finish and drive back i nyour own car, wait for the next sag, or wait and have someone else with the necessary hardware drive back. If you are sitting on the side of the road until a sagwagon comes that can load your Double Vision tandem, you could be there a while. Maybe an empty Greyhound... Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...                       Date: 01 Feb 2007 11:47:20 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:58:46 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::: My experience with sags (limited, I admit) is that only a few bikes ::: are in the "wagon" at time and they generally go between reststops. ::: So, one of these "small" bents would likely not be a loading ::: problem. It's not as if you're going to fill a space with as many ::: bikes as you can. :: :: On a few large rides I've filled vans and pickups. However, true, it :: isn't a problem - for one thing, you don't have just one sag. Large :: multiride events are the most likely times for one van filling up. :: where one sag has t cover a hundred riders or more ad does a trailing :: sag all the way. Even then you can run back and empty, even though it :: will be a while before you catch back up (people that have never done :: sag for some reason think that covering a 50 mile loop is almost :: instantaneous in a car). :: :: As I mentioned in an earlier post, its not a problem for the sagwagon :: even then. The person on the side of the road can be given three :: choices, more or less, when the sag is near full - stash your bike :: and take this sag back to the start/finish and drive back i nyour :: own car, wait for the next sag, or wait and have someone else with :: the necessary hardware drive back. If you are sitting on the side of :: the road until a sagwagon comes that can load your Double Vision :: tandem, you could be there a while. Maybe an empty Greyhound... :: Just someone on two wheels... I'd opt for option 3....while waiting, I'd recover and ride to the finish (I've done this before after cramping up on long hills). The stash things sounds a little scary to me...especially for a monster 'bent like mine...   Date: 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 From: Werehatrack Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:41:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > may have said: >What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that >matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a >non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in sanctioned bicycle events, period. I see no reason to change this. If they want to tag along on a ride that's on an open road, as a non-recognized follower without membership in the group, I doubt that you'll be able to exclude them. On closed-course events, of course, they'd be trespassing unless granted special credentials, such as might be done if a member of the press wanted to use an electric-assist bike to follow and report on the participants instead of using a motorcycle or automobile. I see no reason to permit them to share in any recognition granted to the unassisted riders, however. -- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.     Date: 30 Jan 2007 08:40:54 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote: > >AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in >sanctioned bicycle events, period. Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so. I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...       Date: 30 Jan 2007 19:50:38 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack > <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote: > >> AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in >> sanctioned bicycle events, period. > > Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense > of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit > power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for > permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so. > > I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and > just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too > many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - > they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, > since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept > them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your > feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. > > Curtis L. Russell > Odenton, MD (USA) > Just someone on two wheels... We have an annual event here called "Bike around the Buttes", which is a fund raiser for diabetes. The entrance fee is $20.00 and I get a tee shirt out of it. The ride distances can be 10, 20, 40, 60, or 100 miles and they state that it is definitely NOT a race. Electric assist bikes are allowed but I have yet to see one. I usually ride the 60 mile course so I can get in on the lunch and social part of things. During the ride I can speed up an chat with a group of people then go up to the next group, etc. There are always a few hot shots who think it is a race and blast by everyone in their brightest Dayglow outfits, but they are not that social to the casual riders, as if they are a lower class rider. There are usually only about ten of them and they keep to themselves like a little snob group. The rest of us just chat and ride at anywhere from 8 to 15 MPH and enjoy the company. Riders range from 18 to 80+, so it is a very mixed group, and I would not deny an 80 year old participant from riding an electric on a charity ride. The ride is in early April so if anyone wants to verify my observations just come on over and sign up. Bill Baka         Date: 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:ikNvh.5701$O02.895@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... > Curtis L. Russell wrote: >> On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack >> <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote: >> >>> AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in >>> sanctioned bicycle events, period. >> >> Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense >> of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit >> power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for >> permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so. >> >> I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and >> just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too >> many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - >> they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, >> since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept >> them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your >> feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. >> >> Curtis L. Russell >> Odenton, MD (USA) >> Just someone on two wheels... > > We have an annual event here called "Bike around the Buttes", which is a > fund raiser for diabetes. The entrance fee is $20.00 and I get a tee shirt > out of it. The ride distances can be 10, 20, 40, 60, or 100 miles and they > state that it is definitely NOT a race. Electric assist bikes are allowed > but I have yet to see one. I usually ride the 60 mile course so I can get > in on the lunch and social part of things. During the ride I can speed up > an chat with a group of people then go up to the next group, etc. There > are always a few hot shots who think it is a race and blast by everyone in > their brightest Dayglow outfits, but they are not that social to the > casual riders, as if they are a lower class rider. > There are usually only about ten of them and they keep to themselves like > a little snob group. > The rest of us just chat and ride at anywhere from 8 to 15 MPH and enjoy > the company. > Riders range from 18 to 80+, so it is a very mixed group, and I would not > deny an 80 year old participant from riding an electric on a charity ride. > The ride is in early April so if anyone wants to verify my observations > just come on over and sign up. > Bill Baka I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles (legal term). First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so. I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 33 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!           Date: 31 Jan 2007 19:11:48 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:ikNvh.5701$O02.895@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >> Curtis L. Russell wrote: >>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack >>> <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote: >>> >>>> AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in >>>> sanctioned bicycle events, period. >>> Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense >>> of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit >>> power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for >>> permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so. >>> >>> I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and >>> just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too >>> many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - >>> they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, >>> since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept >>> them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your >>> feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. >>> >>> Curtis L. Russell >>> Odenton, MD (USA) >>> Just someone on two wheels... >> We have an annual event here called "Bike around the Buttes", which is a >> fund raiser for diabetes. The entrance fee is $20.00 and I get a tee shirt >> out of it. The ride distances can be 10, 20, 40, 60, or 100 miles and they >> state that it is definitely NOT a race. Electric assist bikes are allowed >> but I have yet to see one. I usually ride the 60 mile course so I can get >> in on the lunch and social part of things. During the ride I can speed up >> an chat with a group of people then go up to the next group, etc. There >> are always a few hot shots who think it is a race and blast by everyone in >> their brightest Dayglow outfits, but they are not that social to the >> casual riders, as if they are a lower class rider. >> There are usually only about ten of them and they keep to themselves like >> a little snob group. >> The rest of us just chat and ride at anywhere from 8 to 15 MPH and enjoy >> the company. >> Riders range from 18 to 80+, so it is a very mixed group, and I would not >> deny an 80 year old participant from riding an electric on a charity ride. >> The ride is in early April so if anyone wants to verify my observations >> just come on over and sign up. >> Bill Baka > > I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles > (legal term). > > First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run. > Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is > sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 > mile race. And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 > mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the > motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last > half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so. > > I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric > Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth. > > > This is not a "Pure" cyclist event, but, as I said there are about a dozen "Pure" roadies who make no attempt to socialize with anyone not dressed in full cycling gear and a $3,000 bike. They would probably allow an 80 year old granny on an elder's tricycle if she wanted, so it is a really open event. I almost expect to see a 400 pound person on an electric wheelchair replacement thingy some day. It is California, after all, so nothing can be ruled out. Bill Baka           Date: 31 Jan 2007 09:48:54 From: Werehatrack Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@colwestnospam.com > may have said: >I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles >(legal term). > >First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run. >Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is >sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 >mile race. Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be keted to the riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* bike, because even the keting people are st enough to know that the real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, *most* of them won't, anyway. >And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 >mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the >motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last >half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so. Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world where we can do what we likes! >I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric >Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth. Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of the purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider and bike. You're still right, though. There would be a group that would stand well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide reks; it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch potato. -- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.             Date: 01 Feb 2007 06:39:48 From: Janet Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Werehatrack wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" > <dhunt@colwestnospam.com> may have said: > > >>I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles >>(legal term). >> >>First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run. >>Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is >>sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 >>mile race. > > > Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. > > In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph > for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained > output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be keted to the > riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* bike, > because even the keting people are st enough to know that the > real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, *most* of them > won't, anyway. > > >>And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 >>mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the >>motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last >>half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so. > > > Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world > where we can do what we likes! > > >>I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric >>Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth. > > > Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs > would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an > electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other > than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or > impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of the > purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider and bike. > You're still right, though. There would be a group that would stand > well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide > reks; it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the > assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch potato. > But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming discouraged by the process. That said, there will always be the "tour-de-France wannabes" who will snub anyone that isn't a fellow wannabe (and must have the "right" clothes, the "right" bike, etc) Janet               Date: 01 Feb 2007 21:05:16 From: Patrick Lamb Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 06:39:48 GMT, Janet <janet@nospam.nojunk > wrote: >But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a >non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in >the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little >help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming >discouraged by the process. Before the thread got hijacked by the "right" crowd, I think the question being discussed was whether or not the electric assist would actually help going uphill, and whether or not it was worth the extra weight on the remainder of the ride. I might have missed something, but I thought the consensus was "no" to both questions. >That said, there will always be the "tour-de-France wannabes" who will >snub anyone that isn't a fellow wannabe (and must have the "right" >clothes, the "right" bike, etc) That's one beauty of a century -- there's 100 miles to lose those kind. Pat Email address works as is.                 Date: 02 Feb 2007 01:48:26 From: Werehatrack Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:05:16 -0600, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net > may have said: >On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 06:39:48 GMT, Janet <janet@nospam.nojunk> wrote: >>But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a >>non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in >>the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little >>help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming >>discouraged by the process. > >Before the thread got hijacked by the "right" crowd, I think the >question being discussed was whether or not the electric assist would >actually help going uphill, and whether or not it was worth the extra >weight on the remainder of the ride. I might have missed something, >but I thought the consensus was "no" to both questions. The direct question was "What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...", and it seemed clear to me from context that the intent was to explore the reaction of the event coordinator and participants. I agree, though, that the fucntional answer to your query is "no"; the electric-assist bike that's a viable candidate for a century (even a metric) is neither on the ket, nor likely to appear in the near future, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. >>That said, there will always be the "tour-de-France wannabes" who will >>snub anyone that isn't a fellow wannabe (and must have the "right" >>clothes, the "right" bike, etc) > >That's one beauty of a century -- there's 100 miles to lose those >kind. Seldom takes very long IMLE. -- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.                 Date: 02 Feb 2007 03:50:49 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Patrick Lamb wrote: > On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 06:39:48 GMT, Janet <janet@nospam.nojunk> wrote: >> But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a >> non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in >> the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little >> help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming >> discouraged by the process. > > Before the thread got hijacked by the "right" crowd, I think the > question being discussed was whether or not the electric assist would > actually help going uphill, and whether or not it was worth the extra > weight on the remainder of the ride. I might have missed something, > but I thought the consensus was "no" to both questions. The electric could, as you say "help" on the hills, but not enough power in any batteries I have ever seen for multiple thousands of feet. As far as the weight goes it is a non-issue on flat terrain. You are essentially getting a larger mass up to speed but once you achieve that speed it will be about the same effort as a non-powered bike except for tire rolling resistance. > >> That said, there will always be the "tour-de-France wannabes" who will >> snub anyone that isn't a fellow wannabe (and must have the "right" >> clothes, the "right" bike, etc) Heh, I saw two of them on Sunday, wearing the long leg cold weather gear on two nice looking road bikes and they were screaming past at the un-Godly speed of 8 MPH. They looked like a photo-op for a cycling magazine but really now, 8 MPH??? > > That's one beauty of a century -- there's 100 miles to lose those > kind. I thought it was 100 years. At least that's my k and so far so good. > > Pat > > Email address works as is. My century urge won't kick in until the weather gets up to the non-layered clothing point, so I can just concentrate on riding and sweating and not taking it, putting it back on, repeat as needed. Signing off. Bill Baka                   Date: 01 Feb 2007 22:01:53 From: Bill Bushnell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In article <tyywh.57696$wc5.41704@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net >, Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote: > The electric could, as you say "help" on the hills, but not enough power > in any batteries I have ever seen for multiple thousands of feet. You must have missed one of my followups. 5000 feet of climbing on 350 watt-hours has been observed with a not particularly lightweight but efficient pedal assist system, geared properly, in combination with a significant contribution of a fit cyclist's pedaling power. 350 watt-hours is possible with a 24volt/20Ah lead-acid battery that weighs about 30 lbs. Using a Lithium battery of equivalent weight ought to give three times this much climbing range. -- Bill Bushnell http://pobox.com/~bushnell/                     Date: 02 Feb 2007 21:25:43 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Bushnell wrote: > In article <tyywh.57696$wc5.41704@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, > Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote: > >> The electric could, as you say "help" on the hills, but not enough power >> in any batteries I have ever seen for multiple thousands of feet. > > You must have missed one of my followups. Entirely possible with these really active threads. > > 5000 feet of climbing on 350 watt-hours has been observed with a not > particularly lightweight but efficient pedal assist system, geared > properly, in combination with a significant contribution of a fit > cyclist's pedaling power. Gearing was my concern about using an electric to climb with. If it is geared for flat street use then it may not be much help in a climb. The method of getting the power to the road is a big factor in how efficient the motor can run. > > 350 watt-hours is possible with a 24volt/20Ah lead-acid battery that > weighs about 30 lbs. Using a Lithium battery of equivalent weight ought > to give three times this much climbing range. > Lead-acid batteries get killed pretty fast with a full discharge so I would think that a NiMh would be the minimum battery technology to use. Lithium might work better (It will) but cost too much. It seems to be a matter of how much do you want to spend. Bill Baka               Date: 01 Feb 2007 11:43:55 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Janet wrote: :: Werehatrack wrote: ::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" ::: <dhunt@colwestnospam.com > may have said: ::: ::: :::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric :::: Bicycles (legal term). :::: :::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 :::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. :::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike :::: can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. ::: ::: ::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. ::: ::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph ::: for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained ::: output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be keted to the ::: riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* ::: bike, because even the keting people are st enough to know ::: that the real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, ::: *most* of them won't, anyway. ::: ::: :::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 :::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are :::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want :::: to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds :::: or so. ::: ::: ::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world ::: where we can do what we likes! ::: ::: :::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed :::: Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an :::: absessed tooth. ::: ::: ::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs ::: would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an ::: electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other ::: than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or ::: impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of ::: the purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider ::: and bike. You're still right, though. There would be a group that ::: would stand well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and ::: make snide reks; it would just be much smaller than would be the ::: case if the assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere ::: couch potato. ::: :: :: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a :: non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in :: the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little :: help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming :: discouraged by the process. :: Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this.                 Date: 01 Feb 2007 10:45:07 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12s466edcss9962@news.supernews.com... > Janet wrote: > :: Werehatrack wrote: > ::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" > ::: <dhunt@colwestnospam.com> may have said: > ::: > ::: > :::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric > :::: Bicycles (legal term). > :::: > :::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 > :::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. > :::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike > :::: can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. > ::: > ::: > ::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. > ::: > ::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph > ::: for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained > ::: output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be keted to the > ::: riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* > ::: bike, because even the keting people are st enough to know > ::: that the real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, > ::: *most* of them won't, anyway. > ::: > ::: > :::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 > :::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are > :::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want > :::: to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds > :::: or so. > ::: > ::: > ::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world > ::: where we can do what we likes! > ::: > ::: > :::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed > :::: Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an > :::: absessed tooth. > ::: > ::: > ::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs > ::: would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an > ::: electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other > ::: than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or > ::: impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of > ::: the purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider > ::: and bike. You're still right, though. There would be a group that > ::: would stand well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and > ::: make snide reks; it would just be much smaller than would be the > ::: case if the assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere > ::: couch potato. > ::: > :: > :: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a > :: non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in > :: the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little > :: help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming > :: discouraged by the process. > :: > > Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to > improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this. This one did. In fact, it was such a good idea, I became an Electric Bicycle Dealer. And I lost 20 lbs in the process. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 259 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                   Date: 02 Feb 2007 05:56:22 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message :: news:12s466edcss9962@news.supernews.com... ::: Janet wrote: ::::: Werehatrack wrote: :::::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" :::::: <dhunt@colwestnospam.com > may have said: :::::: :::::: ::::::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric ::::::: Bicycles (legal term). ::::::: ::::::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 ::::::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. ::::::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain ::::::: Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. :::::: :::::: :::::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. :::::: :::::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go :::::: 30mph for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of :::::: sustained output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be :::::: keted to the riders who might be able to achieve the result :::::: with a *suitable* bike, because even the keting people are :::::: st enough to know that the real racers are not going to :::::: believe the hype. Well, *most* of them won't, anyway. :::::: :::::: ::::::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 ::::::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are ::::::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you ::::::: want to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra ::::::: 40 pounds or so. :::::: :::::: :::::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy :::::: world where we can do what we likes! :::::: :::::: ::::::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low ::::::: Speed Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as ::::::: an absessed tooth. :::::: :::::: :::::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the :::::: snobs would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders :::::: aboard an electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical :::::: limitation (other than simple lack of conditioning) which makes :::::: it impractical or impossible to participate without the assist, :::::: even the majority of the purists would, in my limited :::::: experience, accept such a rider and bike. You're still right, :::::: though. There would be a group that would stand well away, :::::: never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide reks; :::::: it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the :::::: assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch :::::: potato. :::::: ::::: ::::: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to ::::: become a non-couch potato might need a little assistance going ::::: uphill while in the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe ::::: just having a little help with the tougher parts will keep the ::::: couch potato from becoming discouraged by the process. ::::: ::: ::: Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to ::: improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this. :: :: This one did. In fact, it was such a good idea, I became an Electric :: Bicycle Dealer. And I lost 20 lbs in the process. One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight.                     Date: 02 Feb 2007 21:19:10 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight. Bzzzt. Better how? Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you can) lose weight even while eating more. Why not get the benefit of exercise? Bill Baka                       Date: 03 Feb 2007 11:14:28 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose ::: weight. :: :: Bzzzt. Bzzzt what? :: Better how? Better than spending money on an electric bike. Why not a normal bike? Walking is still free, too. :: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and :: maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. Ok.... :: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you :: can) lose weight even while eating more. :: Why not get the benefit of exercise? Why are you asking such questions? Perhaps you might want to read over the thread again. :: Bill Baka                         Date: 03 Feb 2007 21:16:23 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose > ::: weight. > :: > :: Bzzzt. > > Bzzzt what? What better ways? Weight lifting is hardly cardio, running assumes one can run, (some of my friends can't anymore) or power walking?? > > :: Better how? > > Better than spending money on an electric bike. Why not a normal bike? > Walking is still free, too. > > > :: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and > :: maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > > Ok.... > > :: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you > :: can) lose weight even while eating more. > :: Why not get the benefit of exercise? > > Why are you asking such questions? Perhaps you might want to read over the > thread again. Somebody split the thread. Back to electric bikes. If an electric assist is what is needed to get somebody out of the house, then it is a good thing. Some people have very little self confidence and need a helper to take that first step. Once they realize that they can pedal a little with out electric assist, then maybe they can graduate to a regular bike. Some of my friends are in that category, macho with a car, yet fearing embarrassment on a bike. Hence the electrics have a place. Bill Baka > > :: Bill Baka > >                           Date: 04 Feb 2007 16:34:31 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Bill Baka wrote: ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: :::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose :::::: weight. ::::: ::::: Bzzzt. ::: ::: Bzzzt what? :: :: What better ways? Weight lifting is hardly cardio, running assumes :: one can run, (some of my friends can't anymore) or power walking?? Surely you're aren't claiming that bicycling is the BEST way to lose weight, right? One still have to spend some bike to bike and one needs a place to ride. Most adults that I know are very fearful of riding on the road and for the most part, bicycle paths are far and few between. Hence, while likely effective, cycling is hardly the BEST way to lose weight. MTB likewise. Simple walking combined with not eating too much is probaby best, which weight lifting thrown in. In fact, weight lifting, while not being cardio, can be a very effective weight loss tool. The best means for losing weight is to simply eat less. By far the least costly, least time consuming, least potentially harmful method. Cycling can be a very effective means of losing weight, as can swimming, running, playing b-ball, or any kind of ball. There are many effective ways of losing weight. An electric bike ends up low on the list, IMO. ::: ::::: Better how? ::: ::: Better than spending money on an electric bike. Why not a normal ::: bike? Walking is still free, too. ::: ::: ::::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self ::::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. ::: ::: Ok.... ::: ::::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can ::::: (you can) lose weight even while eating more. ::::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? ::: ::: Why are you asking such questions? Perhaps you might want to read ::: over the thread again. :: :: Somebody split the thread. Back to electric bikes. If an electric :: assist is what is needed to get somebody out of the house, then it :: is a good thing. Some people have very little self confidence and :: need a helper to take that first step. Once they realize that they :: can pedal a little with out electric assist, then maybe they can :: graduate to a regular bike. Some of my friends are in that category, :: macho with a car, yet fearing embarrassment on a bike. :: Hence the electrics have a place. I'm sure they have a place, as I've stated already. However, I think for most people, there are better ways to approach weight loss. :: Bill Baka ::: ::::: Bill Baka                             Date: 04 Feb 2007 22:37:03 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Bill Baka wrote: > ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: > :::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose > :::::: weight. > ::::: > ::::: Bzzzt. > ::: > ::: Bzzzt what? > :: > :: What better ways? Weight lifting is hardly cardio, running assumes > :: one can run, (some of my friends can't anymore) or power walking?? > > Surely you're aren't claiming that bicycling is the BEST way to lose weight, > right? One still have to spend some bike to bike and one needs a place to > ride. Most adults that I know are very fearful of riding on the road and > for the most part, bicycle paths are far and few between. Hence, while > likely effective, cycling is hardly the BEST way to lose weight. MTB > likewise. Hiking mountains can be very effective too, if you have mountains. Try rowing a boat for miles and you will lose weight and have huge biceps. I used to live in a house with the lake for a back yard, and after a day of my idiot boss I blew off steam by rowing my 16' and very heavy boat. I think the bicycle can get you into the explore mode, and even just piddling around at 10 - 12 MPH you can meet people and lose weight. Never do I look at my speedometer/computer and worry about my training heart rate. You say most adults are fearful of riding. They are also fearful of terrorists, the sky is falling, etc. I think we have a bumper crop of cowards. They should be more fearful of a heart attack, which is probably going to kill those who choose not to exercise, maybe tomorrow or 30 years from now. I just lost my aunt to a heart attack, but at least she made it to 89. She walked every day but not enough to count for much. > > Simple walking combined with not eating too much is probaby best, which > weight lifting thrown in. In fact, weight lifting, while not being cardio, > can be a very effective weight loss tool. I find it hard to lift weights to the point where my heart rate is up. it builds muscle, no argument there. > > The best means for losing weight is to simply eat less. By far the least > costly, least time consuming, least potentially harmful method. Tell that to the people lined up at McDonalds drive through section. It was out to the street when I went by at noon a few days back. Too lazy to park the car AND eating junk food. > > Cycling can be a very effective means of losing weight, as can swimming, > running, playing b-ball, or any kind of ball. There are many effective ways > of losing weight. Swimming is good if you have a place to do it. Running works for me too, not jogging but flat out running. That makes it low impact but I can only sprint for about 2 football fields worth then stop and walk until I recover for the next sprint. Jogging and landing on the heels strikes me as more damaging. Playing ball requires you too have an opponent. I try to get people together for baseball every summer but there is a decided lack of interest among both kids and adults. > > An electric bike ends up low on the list, IMO. Low for actual calories burned but if that gets people off the couch then it is a good thing, right? > > ::: > ::::: Better how? > ::: > ::: Better than spending money on an electric bike. Why not a normal > ::: bike? Walking is still free, too. > ::: > ::: > ::::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self > ::::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > ::: > ::: Ok.... > ::: > ::::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can > ::::: (you can) lose weight even while eating more. > ::::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? > ::: > ::: Why are you asking such questions? Perhaps you might want to read > ::: over the thread again. > :: > :: Somebody split the thread. Back to electric bikes. If an electric > :: assist is what is needed to get somebody out of the house, then it > :: is a good thing. Some people have very little self confidence and > :: need a helper to take that first step. Once they realize that they > :: can pedal a little with out electric assist, then maybe they can > :: graduate to a regular bike. Some of my friends are in that category, > :: macho with a car, yet fearing embarrassment on a bike. > :: Hence the electrics have a place. > > I'm sure they have a place, as I've stated already. However, I think for > most people, there are better ways to approach weight loss. > > :: Bill Baka > ::: > ::::: Bill Baka > >                               Date: 04 Feb 2007 18:55:06 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Bill Baka wrote: ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: :::::: Bill Baka wrote: :::::::: Roger Zoul wrote: ::::::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to ::::::::: lose weight. :::::::: :::::::: Bzzzt. :::::: :::::: Bzzzt what? ::::: ::::: What better ways? Weight lifting is hardly cardio, running assumes ::::: one can run, (some of my friends can't anymore) or power walking?? ::: ::: Surely you're aren't claiming that bicycling is the BEST way to ::: lose weight, right? One still have to spend some bike to bike and ::: one needs a place to ride. Most adults that I know are very ::: fearful of riding on the road and for the most part, bicycle paths ::: are far and few between. Hence, while likely effective, cycling is ::: hardly the BEST way to lose weight. MTB likewise. :: :: Hiking mountains can be very effective too, if you have mountains. :: Try rowing a boat for miles and you will lose weight and have huge :: biceps. I used to live in a house with the lake for a back yard, and :: after a day of my idiot boss I blew off steam by rowing my 16' and :: very heavy boat. :: I think the bicycle can get you into the explore mode, and even just :: piddling around at 10 - 12 MPH you can meet people and lose weight. :: Never do I look at my speedometer/computer and worry about my :: training heart rate. :: You say most adults are fearful of riding. They are also fearful of :: terrorists, the sky is falling, etc. :: I think we have a bumper crop of cowards. :: They should be more fearful of a heart attack, which is probably :: going to kill those who choose not to exercise, maybe tomorrow or 30 :: years from now. :: I just lost my aunt to a heart attack, but at least she made it to :: 89. She walked every day but not enough to count for much. She did good. ::: ::: Simple walking combined with not eating too much is probaby best, ::: which weight lifting thrown in. In fact, weight lifting, while not ::: being cardio, can be a very effective weight loss tool. :: :: I find it hard to lift weights to the point where my heart rate is :: up. it builds muscle, no argument there. ::: Want to get your HR up with weights? Deadlift about 315 lbs for 10 reps straight with no rests. If that doesn't do it, you're either already doing more than that or your heart doesn't beat. ::: The best means for losing weight is to simply eat less. By far the ::: least costly, least time consuming, least potentially harmful ::: method. :: :: Tell that to the people lined up at McDonalds drive through section. :: It was out to the street when I went by at noon a few days back. Too :: lazy to park the car AND eating junk food. ::: I could tell them, but will they listen? The truth of something has little bearing on whether people will incorporate it as a means to improve. ::: Cycling can be a very effective means of losing weight, as can ::: swimming, running, playing b-ball, or any kind of ball. There are ::: many effective ways of losing weight. :: :: Swimming is good if you have a place to do it. :: Running works for me too, not jogging but flat out running. That :: makes it low impact but I can only sprint for about 2 football :: fields worth then stop and walk until I recover for the next sprint. :: Jogging and landing on the heels strikes me as more damaging. :: Playing ball requires you too have an opponent. I try to get people :: together for baseball every summer but there is a decided lack of :: interest among both kids and adults. Dribble under a goal and shoot/layup. That's moving and is better than any electric bike at getting off the couch. ::: ::: An electric bike ends up low on the list, IMO. :: :: Low for actual calories burned but if that gets people off the couch :: then it is a good thing, right? Perhaps. But if they never progress, then it's all moot. I think an EB can easily be too much of a crutch.                                 Date: 05 Feb 2007 10:10:45 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12scsisf3kg62a3@news.supernews.com... > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Bill Baka wrote: > ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: > :::::: Bill Baka wrote: > :::::::: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::::::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to > ::::::::: lose weight. > :::::::: > :::::::: Bzzzt. > :::::: > :::::: Bzzzt what? > ::::: > ::::: What better ways? Weight lifting is hardly cardio, running assumes > ::::: one can run, (some of my friends can't anymore) or power walking?? > ::: > ::: Surely you're aren't claiming that bicycling is the BEST way to > ::: lose weight, right? One still have to spend some bike to bike and > ::: one needs a place to ride. Most adults that I know are very > ::: fearful of riding on the road and for the most part, bicycle paths > ::: are far and few between. Hence, while likely effective, cycling is > ::: hardly the BEST way to lose weight. MTB likewise. > :: > :: Hiking mountains can be very effective too, if you have mountains. > :: Try rowing a boat for miles and you will lose weight and have huge > :: biceps. I used to live in a house with the lake for a back yard, and > :: after a day of my idiot boss I blew off steam by rowing my 16' and > :: very heavy boat. > :: I think the bicycle can get you into the explore mode, and even just > :: piddling around at 10 - 12 MPH you can meet people and lose weight. > :: Never do I look at my speedometer/computer and worry about my > :: training heart rate. > :: You say most adults are fearful of riding. They are also fearful of > :: terrorists, the sky is falling, etc. > :: I think we have a bumper crop of cowards. > :: They should be more fearful of a heart attack, which is probably > :: going to kill those who choose not to exercise, maybe tomorrow or 30 > :: years from now. > :: I just lost my aunt to a heart attack, but at least she made it to > :: 89. She walked every day but not enough to count for much. > > She did good. > > ::: > ::: Simple walking combined with not eating too much is probaby best, > ::: which weight lifting thrown in. In fact, weight lifting, while not > ::: being cardio, can be a very effective weight loss tool. > :: > :: I find it hard to lift weights to the point where my heart rate is > :: up. it builds muscle, no argument there. > ::: > > Want to get your HR up with weights? Deadlift about 315 lbs for 10 reps > straight with no rests. If that doesn't do it, you're either already > doing more than that or your heart doesn't beat. > > > ::: The best means for losing weight is to simply eat less. By far the > ::: least costly, least time consuming, least potentially harmful > ::: method. > :: > :: Tell that to the people lined up at McDonalds drive through section. > :: It was out to the street when I went by at noon a few days back. Too > :: lazy to park the car AND eating junk food. > ::: > > I could tell them, but will they listen? The truth of something has > little bearing on whether people will incorporate it as a means to > improve. > > ::: Cycling can be a very effective means of losing weight, as can > ::: swimming, running, playing b-ball, or any kind of ball. There are > ::: many effective ways of losing weight. > :: > :: Swimming is good if you have a place to do it. > :: Running works for me too, not jogging but flat out running. That > :: makes it low impact but I can only sprint for about 2 football > :: fields worth then stop and walk until I recover for the next sprint. > :: Jogging and landing on the heels strikes me as more damaging. > :: Playing ball requires you too have an opponent. I try to get people > :: together for baseball every summer but there is a decided lack of > :: interest among both kids and adults. > > Dribble under a goal and shoot/layup. That's moving and is better than > any electric bike at getting off the couch. > > ::: > ::: An electric bike ends up low on the list, IMO. > :: > :: Low for actual calories burned but if that gets people off the couch > :: then it is a good thing, right? > > Perhaps. But if they never progress, then it's all moot. I think an EB > can easily be too much of a crutch. Gee, without changing my eating habits, I drop 20 lbs riding an Electric Bike. How can that be. Now, I am trying to change my eating habits and another 20 lbs are in the cards. I was that overweight Couch Potato that Bill keeps referring to. Not the same couch potato but one very similiar. I road a bike every day and didn't lose a single pound. I started riding an EB and my range increased 5 fold. Now, there I was, 5 miles from home and out of juice with a MB that wieghed 40 pounds over the gross. Guess what, you pedal back and lose pounds doing so. The EB doesn't pedal quite as easily as a straight MB and is a lead sled compared to a Road Bike. But it's expensive to hire a cab to get home all the time so you pedal home. Sure am glad that Bill is in charge of those bike rides. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 674 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                   Date: 05 Feb 2007 19:47:23 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > Gee, without changing my eating habits, I drop 20 lbs riding an Electric > Bike. How can that be. Now, I am trying to change my eating habits and > another 20 lbs are in the cards. I was that overweight Couch Potato that > Bill keeps referring to. Not the same couch potato but one very similiar. > I road a bike every day and didn't lose a single pound. I started riding an > EB and my range increased 5 fold. Now, there I was, 5 miles from home and > out of juice with a MB that wieghed 40 pounds over the gross. Guess what, > you pedal back and lose pounds doing so. The EB doesn't pedal quite as > easily as a straight MB and is a lead sled compared to a Road Bike. But > it's expensive to hire a cab to get home all the time so you pedal home. No cabs on the ped. train/trail. No cabs at all in my "Twin Cities" area. > > Sure am glad that Bill is in charge of those bike rides. I have to be to get him motivated. He is not a self motivated guy when it comes to exercise. Since he is 54 and 300 pounds at 5'10" I am not trying to kill him, just pry him away from the computer and DO SOMETHING. For what it's worth he wants to take the 2 bike to the train in his pickup, and it's only about a mile and a half. Couch potato driving a car mode. It isn't like we are going to Yosemite or anything, just that he is hard wired to the car. Bill Baka > >                                     Date: 06 Feb 2007 13:24:10 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:cTSxh.1332$o61.1096@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> Gee, without changing my eating habits, I drop 20 lbs riding an Electric >> Bike. How can that be. Now, I am trying to change my eating habits and >> another 20 lbs are in the cards. I was that overweight Couch Potato that >> Bill keeps referring to. Not the same couch potato but one very >> similiar. I road a bike every day and didn't lose a single pound. I >> started riding an EB and my range increased 5 fold. Now, there I was, 5 >> miles from home and out of juice with a MB that wieghed 40 pounds over >> the gross. Guess what, you pedal back and lose pounds doing so. The EB >> doesn't pedal quite as easily as a straight MB and is a lead sled >> compared to a Road Bike. But it's expensive to hire a cab to get home >> all the time so you pedal home. > > No cabs on the ped. train/trail. No cabs at all in my "Twin Cities" area. That 35 bucks is a killer around here as well. Besides, it would take the cab about 2 hours to respond. This ain't NYC. >> >> Sure am glad that Bill is in charge of those bike rides. > > I have to be to get him motivated. He is not a self motivated guy when it > comes to exercise. Since he is 54 and 300 pounds at 5'10" I am not trying > to kill him, just pry him away from the computer and DO SOMETHING. > For what it's worth he wants to take the 2 bike to the train in his > pickup, and it's only about a mile and a half. > Couch potato driving a car mode. It isn't like we are going to Yosemite or > anything, just that he is hard wired to the car. I do a lot of promotions for EVTs around here. Imagine spending 25 cents a day for fuel to drive back and forth to work or just driving your errands in a EVT Car. Or how about taking the LSEBike back and forth to work for a nickle a day. The biggest complaint against this type of vehicle is the range. Comon, 50 miles from an EVT Car that runs for pennies? No, you don't go out onto the interstated with it, of course. But around town, it's a great way to get from point a to point b for your second car. Save the Gashog for those long hauls. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 801 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                       Date: 07 Feb 2007 07:22:20 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:cTSxh.1332$o61.1096@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> Gee, without changing my eating habits, I drop 20 lbs riding an Electric >>> Bike. How can that be. Now, I am trying to change my eating habits and >>> another 20 lbs are in the cards. I was that overweight Couch Potato that >>> Bill keeps referring to. Not the same couch potato but one very >>> similiar. I road a bike every day and didn't lose a single pound. I >>> started riding an EB and my range increased 5 fold. Now, there I was, 5 >>> miles from home and out of juice with a MB that wieghed 40 pounds over >>> the gross. Guess what, you pedal back and lose pounds doing so. The EB >>> doesn't pedal quite as easily as a straight MB and is a lead sled >>> compared to a Road Bike. But it's expensive to hire a cab to get home >>> all the time so you pedal home. >> No cabs on the ped. train/trail. No cabs at all in my "Twin Cities" area. > > That 35 bucks is a killer around here as well. Besides, it would take the > cab about 2 hours to respond. This ain't NYC. > >>> Sure am glad that Bill is in charge of those bike rides. >> I have to be to get him motivated. He is not a self motivated guy when it >> comes to exercise. Since he is 54 and 300 pounds at 5'10" I am not trying >> to kill him, just pry him away from the computer and DO SOMETHING. >> For what it's worth he wants to take the 2 bike to the train in his >> pickup, and it's only about a mile and a half. >> Couch potato driving a car mode. It isn't like we are going to Yosemite or >> anything, just that he is hard wired to the car. > > I do a lot of promotions for EVTs around here. Imagine spending 25 cents a > day for fuel to drive back and forth to work or just driving your errands in > a EVT Car. Or how about taking the LSEBike back and forth to work for a > nickle a day. The biggest complaint against this type of vehicle is the > range. Comon, 50 miles from an EVT Car that runs for pennies? No, you > don't go out onto the interstated with it, of course. But around town, it's > a great way to get from point a to point b for your second car. Save the > Gashog for those long hauls. > Does that tell you anything about the typical American who wants to have his cake and eat it too. 50 miles is more than enough to run errands and get groceries and stuff. Unfortunately, Joe average wants a 300 mile, 60 MPG car that will also do 0-60 in 5 seconds. Not likely. Reality stinks. Bill Baka                                         Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:31:20 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:M6fyh.16272$zH1.6227@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:cTSxh.1332$o61.1096@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net... >>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>>> Gee, without changing my eating habits, I drop 20 lbs riding an >>>> Electric Bike. How can that be. Now, I am trying to change my eating >>>> habits and another 20 lbs are in the cards. I was that overweight >>>> Couch Potato that Bill keeps referring to. Not the same couch potato >>>> but one very similiar. I road a bike every day and didn't lose a single >>>> pound. I started riding an EB and my range increased 5 fold. Now, >>>> there I was, 5 miles from home and out of juice with a MB that wieghed >>>> 40 pounds over the gross. Guess what, you pedal back and lose pounds >>>> doing so. The EB doesn't pedal quite as easily as a straight MB and is >>>> a lead sled compared to a Road Bike. But it's expensive to hire a cab >>>> to get home all the time so you pedal home. >>> No cabs on the ped. train/trail. No cabs at all in my "Twin Cities" >>> area. >> >> That 35 bucks is a killer around here as well. Besides, it would take >> the cab about 2 hours to respond. This ain't NYC. >> >>>> Sure am glad that Bill is in charge of those bike rides. >>> I have to be to get him motivated. He is not a self motivated guy when >>> it comes to exercise. Since he is 54 and 300 pounds at 5'10" I am not >>> trying to kill him, just pry him away from the computer and DO >>> SOMETHING. >>> For what it's worth he wants to take the 2 bike to the train in his >>> pickup, and it's only about a mile and a half. >>> Couch potato driving a car mode. It isn't like we are going to Yosemite >>> or anything, just that he is hard wired to the car. >> >> I do a lot of promotions for EVTs around here. Imagine spending 25 cents >> a day for fuel to drive back and forth to work or just driving your >> errands in a EVT Car. Or how about taking the LSEBike back and forth to >> work for a nickle a day. The biggest complaint against this type of >> vehicle is the range. Comon, 50 miles from an EVT Car that runs for >> pennies? No, you don't go out onto the interstated with it, of course. >> But around town, it's a great way to get from point a to point b for your >> second car. Save the Gashog for those long hauls. >> > Does that tell you anything about the typical American who wants to have > his cake and eat it too. 50 miles is more than enough to run errands and > get groceries and stuff. Unfortunately, Joe average wants a 300 mile, 60 > MPG car that will also do 0-60 in 5 seconds. Not likely. > Reality stinks. The LSEbike is slow on the excelleration but the electric car will run with the best of the small 4 cylinders. The average at the wheel output of a 4 cyclinder is less than 80. You can put on 40 hp in hub motor wheels on all 4 wheels and develop twice that. The same goes for a 2 wheeler classed as a Motorcycle which can put up to 80 hp directly onto the ground. 80hp on a MC, now that's a scary thing to even think about riding. It's funny (not really), people that are bicycle "Purests" will scream very, vary loud against the EVT anything. And then bitch about all that smog that the other people spew with their cars. We have one thinly veiled "Lobbyist" organization that claims to be a Bicycle Club (they openly solicit money and lobby heavily) that wants to keep everything "Pure" and openly does not want to share the bike paths with the LSEBikes or anything else. It makes it difficult to get our Legislators off their butts to have similiar laws that California currently has. The sad part is, some of the Cops here are trying to enforce the "Old" CA electric Bicycle Laws when we don't have any such thing on the books. Usually, we make for sense in laws here than where you are but, obviously, not always. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 897 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                           Date: 08 Feb 2007 00:14:34 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:M6fyh.16272$zH1.6227@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> Does that tell you anything about the typical American who wants to have >> his cake and eat it too. 50 miles is more than enough to run errands and >> get groceries and stuff. Unfortunately, Joe average wants a 300 mile, 60 >> MPG car that will also do 0-60 in 5 seconds. Not likely. >> Reality stinks. > > The LSEbike is slow on the excelleration but the electric car will run with > the best of the small 4 cylinders. The average at the wheel output of a 4 > cyclinder is less than 80. You can put on 40 hp in hub motor wheels on all > 4 wheels and develop twice that. The same goes for a 2 wheeler classed as a > Motorcycle which can put up to 80 hp directly onto the ground. 80hp on a > MC, now that's a scary thing to even think about riding. How about 800 HP. There is a bike posted on the aviation pictures group that has a WWII radial airplane engine built into it. That was radical but the gas tank would only give about 10 miles between fills. > > It's funny (not really), people that are bicycle "Purests" will scream very, > vary loud against the EVT anything. And then bitch about all that smog that > the other people spew with their cars. We have one thinly veiled "Lobbyist" > organization that claims to be a Bicycle Club (they openly solicit money and > lobby heavily) that wants to keep everything "Pure" and openly does not want > to share the bike paths with the LSEBikes or anything else. It makes it > difficult to get our Legislators off their butts to have similiar laws that > California currently has. The sad part is, some of the Cops here are trying > to enforce the "Old" CA electric Bicycle Laws when we don't have any such > thing on the books. Usually, we make for sense in laws here than where you > are but, obviously, not always. I'm in California too, and definitely not a "Purist", since I have a real need to haul stuff some times. The "Purist" mind set must come from the city boys who have never dealt with suburb type towns. At least we get some victories, small but progress. A few years back they paved the levee tops for ped and bike use. Now the tracks are a path. Who knows what may come next. Bill Baka >                                             Date: 07 Feb 2007 17:56:34 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:KXtyh.3308$gj4.1114@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:M6fyh.16272$zH1.6227@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >>> Does that tell you anything about the typical American who wants to have >>> his cake and eat it too. 50 miles is more than enough to run errands and >>> get groceries and stuff. Unfortunately, Joe average wants a 300 mile, 60 >>> MPG car that will also do 0-60 in 5 seconds. Not likely. >>> Reality stinks. >> >> The LSEbike is slow on the excelleration but the electric car will run >> with the best of the small 4 cylinders. The average at the wheel output >> of a 4 cyclinder is less than 80. You can put on 40 hp in hub motor >> wheels on all 4 wheels and develop twice that. The same goes for a 2 >> wheeler classed as a Motorcycle which can put up to 80 hp directly onto >> the ground. 80hp on a MC, now that's a scary thing to even think about >> riding. > > How about 800 HP. There is a bike posted on the aviation pictures group > that has a WWII radial airplane engine built into it. That was radical but > the gas tank would only give about 10 miles between fills. Chrysler built a concept Motorcycle that used the Vipers new engine. 600hp plus. Not too many takers for rides on that thing. And Chrysler won't anyone with a death wish anywhere near it. >> >> It's funny (not really), people that are bicycle "Purests" will scream >> very, vary loud against the EVT anything. And then bitch about all that >> smog that the other people spew with their cars. We have one thinly >> veiled "Lobbyist" organization that claims to be a Bicycle Club (they >> openly solicit money and lobby heavily) that wants to keep everything >> "Pure" and openly does not want to share the bike paths with the LSEBikes >> or anything else. It makes it difficult to get our Legislators off their >> butts to have similiar laws that California currently has. The sad part >> is, some of the Cops here are trying to enforce the "Old" CA electric >> Bicycle Laws when we don't have any such thing on the books. Usually, we >> make for sense in laws here than where you are but, obviously, not >> always. > > I'm in California too, and definitely not a "Purist", since I have a real > need to haul stuff some times. The "Purist" mind set must come from the > city boys who have never dealt with suburb type towns. At least we get > some victories, small but progress. A few years back they paved the levee > tops for ped and bike use. Now the tracks are a path. Who knows what may > come next. > Bill Baka I know you aren't a purist by that definition. But it appears you are more pure than many in having an open mind. It only goes to show that money corrupts. Some people work for next to nothing and all they can afford is a bike. When they have to make the choice between car insurance and their family eating that month or not then the Bike (whether it's regular or ethyl) should be promoted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 940 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                               Date: 08 Feb 2007 04:06:50 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:KXtyh.3308$gj4.1114@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:M6fyh.16272$zH1.6227@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >>>> Does that tell you anything about the typical American who wants to have >>>> his cake and eat it too. 50 miles is more than enough to run errands and >>>> get groceries and stuff. Unfortunately, Joe average wants a 300 mile, 60 >>>> MPG car that will also do 0-60 in 5 seconds. Not likely. >>>> Reality stinks. >>> The LSEbike is slow on the excelleration but the electric car will run >>> with the best of the small 4 cylinders. The average at the wheel output >>> of a 4 cyclinder is less than 80. You can put on 40 hp in hub motor >>> wheels on all 4 wheels and develop twice that. The same goes for a 2 >>> wheeler classed as a Motorcycle which can put up to 80 hp directly onto >>> the ground. 80hp on a MC, now that's a scary thing to even think about >>> riding. >> How about 800 HP. There is a bike posted on the aviation pictures group >> that has a WWII radial airplane engine built into it. That was radical but >> the gas tank would only give about 10 miles between fills. > > Chrysler built a concept Motorcycle that used the Vipers new engine. 600hp > plus. Not too many takers for rides on that thing. And Chrysler won't > anyone with a death wish anywhere near it. I've seen it. Looked like a bear to handle it but they did say the potential top speed was way over 300 MPH. > > > >>> It's funny (not really), people that are bicycle "Purests" will scream >>> very, vary loud against the EVT anything. And then bitch about all that >>> smog that the other people spew with their cars. We have one thinly >>> veiled "Lobbyist" organization that claims to be a Bicycle Club (they >>> openly solicit money and lobby heavily) that wants to keep everything >>> "Pure" and openly does not want to share the bike paths with the LSEBikes >>> or anything else. It makes it difficult to get our Legislators off their >>> butts to have similiar laws that California currently has. The sad part >>> is, some of the Cops here are trying to enforce the "Old" CA electric >>> Bicycle Laws when we don't have any such thing on the books. Usually, we >>> make for sense in laws here than where you are but, obviously, not >>> always. >> I'm in California too, and definitely not a "Purist", since I have a real >> need to haul stuff some times. The "Purist" mind set must come from the >> city boys who have never dealt with suburb type towns. At least we get >> some victories, small but progress. A few years back they paved the levee >> tops for ped and bike use. Now the tracks are a path. Who knows what may >> come next. >> Bill Baka > > I know you aren't a purist by that definition. But it appears you are more > pure than many in having an open mind. It only goes to show that money > corrupts. Some people work for next to nothing and all they can afford is a > bike. When they have to make the choice between car insurance and their > family eating that month or not then the Bike (whether it's regular or > ethyl) should be promoted. > > I can side with that. If some kid wants to (or thinks he can) do my job for $8 and hour then fine. I won't get out of bed for that. I'll just wait until the kid screws something up so I can charge $50 and hour to fix it. Bill Baka                       Date: 02 Feb 2007 17:02:36 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > Roger Zoul wrote: >> One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight. > > Bzzzt. > Better how? > Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and > maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you can) > lose weight even while eating more. > Why not get the benefit of exercise? > Bill Baka I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail in here to some extent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 413 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                         Date: 03 Feb 2007 11:12:22 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: :: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message :: news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... ::: Roger Zoul wrote: :::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose :::: weight. ::: ::: Bzzzt. ::: Better how? ::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self ::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. ::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you ::: can) lose weight even while eating more. ::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? ::: Bill Baka :: :: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings :: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail :: in here to some extent. :: You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what you did to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's fantastic! I was just saying that as a means to drop some weight, there are some better ways. That's all. In the end, of course, whatever method one chooses and finds works is THE best way, but I don't think I'd recommend buying an electric bike as a first, second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that these bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that assist sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm mixing in adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is blurring the lines here.                           Date: 03 Feb 2007 21:08:35 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Daryl Hunt wrote: > :: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > :: news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > ::: Roger Zoul wrote: > :::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose > :::: weight. > ::: > ::: Bzzzt. > ::: Better how? > ::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self > ::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > ::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you > ::: can) lose weight even while eating more. > ::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? > ::: Bill Baka > :: > :: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings > :: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail > :: in here to some extent. > :: > > You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what you did > to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's fantastic! I was > just saying that as a means to drop some weight, there are some better ways. > That's all. In the end, of course, whatever method one chooses and finds > works is THE best way, but I don't think I'd recommend buying an electric > bike as a first, second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that > these bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who > commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that assist > sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm mixing in > adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is blurring the lines > here. > > > > OK, Context problem. The electric bike is a means to get one out of the house, and sure beats driving a tank to the gym and using fossil fuel. My daughter had a gym membership and drove 5 miles each way. The problem was that she was only going about twice a week, where as using a bike, even electric, would have given her some exercise and saved the air. The electric could be used for commuting to the gym if all else fails, or a newbie who is out of shape could pedal out to 10-15 miles from the house, and if worn out, use the electric to get back home. Anything that gets one off the couch. I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty well every year. Bill Baka                             Date: 04 Feb 2007 16:38:00 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Daryl Hunt wrote: ::::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message ::::: news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... :::::: Roger Zoul wrote: ::::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to ::::::: lose weight. :::::: :::::: Bzzzt. :::::: Better how? :::::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self :::::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. :::::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can :::::: (you can) lose weight even while eating more. :::::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? :::::: Bill Baka ::::: ::::: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings ::::: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail ::::: in here to some extent. ::::: ::: ::: You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what ::: you did to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's ::: fantastic! I was just saying that as a means to drop some weight, ::: there are some better ways. That's all. In the end, of course, ::: whatever method one chooses and finds works is THE best way, but I ::: don't think I'd recommend buying an electric bike as a first, ::: second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that these ::: bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who ::: commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that ::: assist sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm ::: mixing in adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is ::: blurring the lines here. ::: ::: ::: ::: :: OK, Context problem. The electric bike is a means to get one out of :: the house, and sure beats driving a tank to the gym and using fossil :: fuel. My daughter had a gym membership and drove 5 miles each way. :: The problem was that she was only going about twice a week, where as :: using a bike, even electric, would have given her some exercise and :: saved the air. :: :: The electric could be used for commuting to the gym if all else :: fails, or a newbie who is out of shape could pedal out to 10-15 :: miles from the house, and if worn out, use the electric to get back :: home. :: :: Anything that gets one off the couch. You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) :: :: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb football :: game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty well every year. :: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. :: Bill Baka                               Date: 05 Feb 2007 09:53:59 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12sckhq6916tc7e@news.supernews.com... > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Daryl Hunt wrote: > ::::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > ::::: news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > :::::: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to > ::::::: lose weight. > :::::: > :::::: Bzzzt. > :::::: Better how? > :::::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self > :::::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > :::::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can > :::::: (you can) lose weight even while eating more. > :::::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? > :::::: Bill Baka > ::::: > ::::: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings > ::::: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail > ::::: in here to some extent. > ::::: > ::: > ::: You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what > ::: you did to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's > ::: fantastic! I was just saying that as a means to drop some weight, > ::: there are some better ways. That's all. In the end, of course, > ::: whatever method one chooses and finds works is THE best way, but I > ::: don't think I'd recommend buying an electric bike as a first, > ::: second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that these > ::: bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who > ::: commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that > ::: assist sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm > ::: mixing in adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is > ::: blurring the lines here. > ::: > ::: > ::: > ::: > :: OK, Context problem. The electric bike is a means to get one out of > :: the house, and sure beats driving a tank to the gym and using fossil > :: fuel. My daughter had a gym membership and drove 5 miles each way. > :: The problem was that she was only going about twice a week, where as > :: using a bike, even electric, would have given her some exercise and > :: saved the air. > :: > :: The electric could be used for commuting to the gym if all else > :: fails, or a newbie who is out of shape could pedal out to 10-15 > :: miles from the house, and if worn out, use the electric to get back > :: home. > :: > :: Anything that gets one off the couch. > > You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) I think you are quite clear. Nice talking with you and have a nice day. > > :: > :: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb football > :: game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty well every year. > :: > > Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. > > :: Bill Baka > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 674 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                               Date: 04 Feb 2007 22:43:10 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Daryl Hunt wrote: > ::::: "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > ::::: news:iVNwh.57746$wc5.43611@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > :::::: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::::::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to > ::::::: lose weight. > :::::: > :::::: Bzzzt. > :::::: Better how? > :::::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self > :::::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals. > :::::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can > :::::: (you can) lose weight even while eating more. > :::::: Why not get the benefit of exercise? > :::::: Bill Baka > ::::: > ::::: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings > ::::: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail > ::::: in here to some extent. > ::::: > ::: > ::: You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what > ::: you did to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's > ::: fantastic! I was just saying that as a means to drop some weight, > ::: there are some better ways. That's all. In the end, of course, > ::: whatever method one chooses and finds works is THE best way, but I > ::: don't think I'd recommend buying an electric bike as a first, > ::: second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that these > ::: bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who > ::: commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that > ::: assist sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm > ::: mixing in adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is > ::: blurring the lines here. > ::: > ::: > ::: > ::: > :: OK, Context problem. The electric bike is a means to get one out of > :: the house, and sure beats driving a tank to the gym and using fossil > :: fuel. My daughter had a gym membership and drove 5 miles each way. > :: The problem was that she was only going about twice a week, where as > :: using a bike, even electric, would have given her some exercise and > :: saved the air. > :: > :: The electric could be used for commuting to the gym if all else > :: fails, or a newbie who is out of shape could pedal out to 10-15 > :: miles from the house, and if worn out, use the electric to get back > :: home. > :: > :: Anything that gets one off the couch. > > You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. > > :: > :: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb football > :: game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty well every year. > :: > > Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower but froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want summer back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not worrying about freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. Summer, summer, please. Bill Baka > > :: Bill Baka > >                                 Date: 04 Feb 2007 18:47:33 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: ::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. ::: ::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) :: :: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the first :: place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it then maybe :: they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears that make it very easy to turn the cranks. I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to get away. ::: ::::: ::::: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb ::::: football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty ::::: well every year. ::::: ::: ::: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. :: :: Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was :: really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and :: realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower but :: froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want summer :: back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not worrying about :: freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. :: Summer, summer, please. I'm good above 40 degrees with no wind chill, but there always is some here. If the temp is in the 30s, then it's just easier to ride the stationary (though not nearly as enjoyable) & go the gym.                                   Date: 05 Feb 2007 00:02:33 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > ::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. > ::: > ::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) > :: > :: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the first > :: place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it then maybe > :: they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. > > What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want them to > consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy a "real" bike > and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. I started out with > simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears that make it very easy to turn > the cranks. > > I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from couchpotatodom, but > I'm saying I can think of much better ways to get away. I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I might get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he could just turn on the electric and get home. > > ::: > ::::: > ::::: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb > ::::: football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty > ::::: well every year. > ::::: > ::: > ::: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. > :: > :: Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was > :: really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and > :: realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower but > :: froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want summer > :: back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not worrying about > :: freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. > :: Summer, summer, please. > > I'm good above 40 degrees with no wind chill, but there always is some here. > If the temp is in the 30s, then it's just easier to ride the stationary > (though not nearly as enjoyable) & go the gym. > I'm not even going to try to debate that issue. Riding in the cold always gets me too hot or too cold. In the summer it is only one thing, as in how much do you want to sweat? Bill Baka                                     Date: 04 Feb 2007 19:21:00 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Bill Baka wrote: :::::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. :::::: :::::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) ::::: ::::: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the ::::: first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it ::::: then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. ::: ::: What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want ::: them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy ::: a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. ::: I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears ::: that make it very easy to turn the cranks. ::: ::: I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from ::: couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to ::: get away. :: :: I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I might :: get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. :: He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit :: more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he :: could just turn on the electric and get home. 10 to 1 he won't do anything with an EB, either. He full-in into being a CP. Getting out of that mindset is his biggest challenge. He's got a nice Cannondale right there that he could take easy rides on. As a practical matter, he's not going to get fried since it's doubtful he'll push himself. ::: :::::: :::::::: :::::::: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb :::::::: football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty :::::::: well every year. :::::::: :::::: :::::: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. ::::: ::::: Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was ::::: really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and ::::: realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower ::::: but froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want ::::: summer back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not ::::: worrying about freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. ::::: Summer, summer, please. ::: ::: I'm good above 40 degrees with no wind chill, but there always is ::: some here. If the temp is in the 30s, then it's just easier to ride ::: the stationary (though not nearly as enjoyable) & go the gym. ::: :: I'm not even going to try to debate that issue. Riding in the cold :: always gets me too hot or too cold. In the summer it is only one :: thing, as in how much do you want to sweat? I never notice myself sweating in the summer much on a bike until I stop, and I try to avoid that. In the winter, you just have to not overdress, which admittedly can be tricky.                                       Date: 05 Feb 2007 05:42:46 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > :: Roger Zoul wrote: > ::: Bill Baka wrote: > :::::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. > :::::: > :::::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) > ::::: > ::::: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the > ::::: first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it > ::::: then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. > ::: > ::: What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want > ::: them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy > ::: a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. > ::: I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears > ::: that make it very easy to turn the cranks. > ::: > ::: I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from > ::: couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to > ::: get away. > :: > :: I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I might > :: get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. > :: He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit > :: more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he > :: could just turn on the electric and get home. > > 10 to 1 he won't do anything with an EB, either. He full-in into being a CP. > Getting out of that mindset is his biggest challenge. He's got a nice > Cannondale right there that he could take easy rides on. As a practical > matter, he's not going to get fried since it's doubtful he'll push himself. He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging him to "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger than me, have died in the last two years, and neither would have happened if they were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am going to remind him of this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have to try. > > > > ::: > :::::: > :::::::: > :::::::: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb > :::::::: football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty > :::::::: well every year. > :::::::: > :::::: > :::::: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. > ::::: > ::::: Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was > ::::: really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and > ::::: realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower > ::::: but froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want > ::::: summer back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not > ::::: worrying about freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. > ::::: Summer, summer, please. > ::: > ::: I'm good above 40 degrees with no wind chill, but there always is > ::: some here. If the temp is in the 30s, then it's just easier to ride > ::: the stationary (though not nearly as enjoyable) & go the gym. > ::: > :: I'm not even going to try to debate that issue. Riding in the cold > :: always gets me too hot or too cold. In the summer it is only one > :: thing, as in how much do you want to sweat? > > I never notice myself sweating in the summer much on a bike until I stop, > and I try to avoid that. In the winter, you just have to not overdress, > which admittedly can be tricky. Tricky indeed. It always seems to be too little or too much. I usually wind up with the extra stuff wrapped around the handlebars. Spring were for art thou? Bill Baka > >                                         Date: 05 Feb 2007 10:04:54 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:qtzxh.71358$qO4.54330@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net... > Roger Zoul wrote: >> Bill Baka wrote: >> :: Roger Zoul wrote: >> ::: Bill Baka wrote: >> :::::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. >> :::::: >> :::::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) >> ::::: >> ::::: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the >> ::::: first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it >> ::::: then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. >> ::: >> ::: What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want >> ::: them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy >> ::: a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. >> ::: I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears >> ::: that make it very easy to turn the cranks. >> ::: >> ::: I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from >> ::: couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to >> ::: get away. >> :: >> :: I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I might >> :: get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. >> :: He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit >> :: more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he >> :: could just turn on the electric and get home. >> >> 10 to 1 he won't do anything with an EB, either. He full-in into being a >> CP. Getting out of that mindset is his biggest challenge. He's got a nice >> Cannondale right there that he could take easy rides on. As a practical >> matter, he's not going to get fried since it's doubtful he'll push >> himself. > > He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging him to > "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger than me, > have died in the last two years, and neither would have happened if they > were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am going to remind him of > this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have to try. Ah, one of the food groups, Chocolate. Yes, if it's a Road Bike, you don't really want to put electrics on it. The rims won't handle the punishment. Nor will the forks or the frame. But if it's a MB then that is a different story and easily adapted. He can have the best of both worlds on a Hybrid (maybe) or a MB (15 minute installation). I don't know how many times I leave the house, get to where I want to go and notice I didn't charge before I left. Guess what, there is going to be some peddling involved on the way back. Also, climbing hills (like it's really ever going to be flat in Western Colorado anywhere) you pedal to extend your range even when you have a full charge. The Low Speed Electric still requires help from time to time to get from point A to B. And, maybe, a bit of help from the lowspeed electric bicycle (http://lsebicycle.com) just might get him down a few pounds until he no longer needs the electric part. >> >> >> >> ::: >> :::::: >> :::::::: >> :::::::: I'm riding tomorrow, whilst all the potatoes watch some dumb >> :::::::: football game. The (not so) superbowl clears the roads pretty >> :::::::: well every year. >> :::::::: >> :::::: >> :::::: Good for you. Too bad we have 25 mph winds...makes it too cold. >> ::::: >> ::::: Cold has been my enemy too. I went out yesterday and thought I was >> ::::: really doing good until I got about 5 miles from the house and >> ::::: realized it was a tailwind, DUH. Coming back was not only slower >> ::::: but froze my hands while I was getting sweaty. Makes me want >> ::::: summer back, no layering, just water, pedal and sweat, not >> ::::: worrying about freezing if I had to walk back due to a failure. >> ::::: Summer, summer, please. >> ::: >> ::: I'm good above 40 degrees with no wind chill, but there always is >> ::: some here. If the temp is in the 30s, then it's just easier to ride >> ::: the stationary (though not nearly as enjoyable) & go the gym. >> ::: >> :: I'm not even going to try to debate that issue. Riding in the cold >> :: always gets me too hot or too cold. In the summer it is only one >> :: thing, as in how much do you want to sweat? >> >> I never notice myself sweating in the summer much on a bike until I stop, >> and I try to avoid that. In the winter, you just have to not overdress, >> which admittedly can be tricky. > > Tricky indeed. It always seems to be too little or too much. I usually > wind up with the extra stuff wrapped around the handlebars. > Spring were for art thou? > Bill Baka The summers here hits 105 and better for long stretches. It's a dry heat but 105 and better? You are going to sweat no matter what unless you are wearing NASA underwear. In the Winter, just layer clothing it and gloves. The face needs to be covered when it hits in the low teens and single digits. Also, FENDERS. It's messy around here when it rains or snows. Other than that, I ride every day without fail. Rain, Shine, Snow, sleet or fair weather. That isn't something most can say. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 674 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                           Date: 06 Feb 2007 03:40:40 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:qtzxh.71358$qO4.54330@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net... >> Roger Zoul wrote: >>> Bill Baka wrote: >>> :: Roger Zoul wrote: >>> ::: Bill Baka wrote: >>> :::::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. >>> :::::: >>> :::::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) >>> ::::: >>> ::::: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the >>> ::::: first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it >>> ::::: then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. >>> ::: >>> ::: What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want >>> ::: them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy >>> ::: a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. >>> ::: I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears >>> ::: that make it very easy to turn the cranks. >>> ::: >>> ::: I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from >>> ::: couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to >>> ::: get away. >>> :: >>> :: I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I might >>> :: get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. >>> :: He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit >>> :: more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he >>> :: could just turn on the electric and get home. >>> >>> 10 to 1 he won't do anything with an EB, either. He full-in into being a >>> CP. Getting out of that mindset is his biggest challenge. He's got a nice >>> Cannondale right there that he could take easy rides on. As a practical >>> matter, he's not going to get fried since it's doubtful he'll push >>> himself. >> He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging him to >> "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger than me, >> have died in the last two years, and neither would have happened if they >> were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am going to remind him of >> this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have to try. > > Ah, one of the food groups, Chocolate. Yes, if it's a Road Bike, you don't > really want to put electrics on it. The rims won't handle the punishment. > Nor will the forks or the frame. But if it's a MB then that is a different > story and easily adapted. He can have the best of both worlds on a Hybrid > (maybe) or a MB (15 minute installation). I don't know how many times I > leave the house, get to where I want to go and notice I didn't charge before > I left. Guess what, there is going to be some peddling involved on the way > back. Also, climbing hills (like it's really ever going to be flat in > Western Colorado anywhere) you pedal to extend your range even when you have > a full charge. The Low Speed Electric still requires help from time to time > to get from point A to B. > > And, maybe, a bit of help from the lowspeed electric bicycle > (http://lsebicycle.com) just might get him down a few pounds until he no > longer needs the electric part. > > The one thing I have going for me is that it is all flat and he seems interested in riding the trail that was railroad and is now paved just for biking and walking. It goes about 8 miles and only crosses 2 roads with little traffic. <SNIP > >> Tricky indeed. It always seems to be too little or too much. I usually >> wind up with the extra stuff wrapped around the handlebars. >> Spring were for art thou? >> Bill Baka > > The summers here hits 105 and better for long stretches. It's a dry heat > but 105 and better? You are going to sweat no matter what unless you are > wearing NASA underwear. Yeah, It hits 100 for about 30 days out of the summer here. Dry but when it goes over 110 the pavement really gets to scorching. This is the area where they made a movie and took bets on frying an egg on the road. It didn't fry, but came close. > > In the Winter, just layer clothing it and gloves. The face needs to be > covered when it hits in the low teens and single digits. Also, FENDERS. > It's messy around here when it rains or snows. Fenders. I almost forgot they exist. Now that I think of it I haven't seen fenders on any bike around here. It must be a California mind set. > > Other than that, I ride every day without fail. Rain, Shine, Snow, sleet or > fair weather. That isn't something most can say. > I can't say it. Sometimes it is easier to just go out and run a bit, due to the overwhelming junk collection in my garage. Bill Baka                                             Date: 06 Feb 2007 13:17:18 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:YMSxh.59129$wc5.10351@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:qtzxh.71358$qO4.54330@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net... >>> Roger Zoul wrote: >>>> Bill Baka wrote: >>>> :: Roger Zoul wrote: >>>> ::: Bill Baka wrote: >>>> :::::::: Anything that gets one off the couch. >>>> :::::: >>>> :::::: You're not making a strong case for an electric bike! :) >>>> ::::: >>>> ::::: Come on, read my last line, getting people off the couch in the >>>> ::::: first place is a starting point. If an electric assist does it >>>> ::::: then maybe they can get addicted to riding and buy a real bike. >>>> ::: >>>> ::: What, after they have already bought an electric bike, you want >>>> ::: them to consider buying a "real" bike? Too funny. Why not just buy >>>> ::: a "real" bike and ride it? Just find a piece of flat ground & ride. >>>> ::: I started out with simple loops @ less than 5 miles, using gears >>>> ::: that make it very easy to turn the cranks. >>>> ::: >>>> ::: I'm not suggesting that an EB can't be a road away from >>>> ::: couchpotatodom, but I'm saying I can think of much better ways to >>>> ::: get away. >>>> :: >>>> :: I have a 300 pound couch potato (computer addict) friend whom I >>>> might >>>> :: get out to ride a bit more if he had the electric to fall back on. >>>> :: He has a nice Cannondale but never rides it. There might be a bit >>>> :: more of an incentive to ride if he knew that if he got fried he >>>> :: could just turn on the electric and get home. >>>> >>>> 10 to 1 he won't do anything with an EB, either. He full-in into being >>>> a CP. Getting out of that mindset is his biggest challenge. He's got a >>>> nice Cannondale right there that he could take easy rides on. As a >>>> practical matter, he's not going to get fried since it's doubtful he'll >>>> push himself. >>> He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging him >>> to "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger than >>> me, have died in the last two years, and neither would have happened if >>> they were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am going to remind him >>> of this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have to >>> try. >> >> Ah, one of the food groups, Chocolate. Yes, if it's a Road Bike, you >> don't really want to put electrics on it. The rims won't handle the >> punishment. Nor will the forks or the frame. But if it's a MB then that >> is a different story and easily adapted. He can have the best of both >> worlds on a Hybrid (maybe) or a MB (15 minute installation). I don't >> know how many times I leave the house, get to where I want to go and >> notice I didn't charge before I left. Guess what, there is going to be >> some peddling involved on the way back. Also, climbing hills (like it's >> really ever going to be flat in Western Colorado anywhere) you pedal to >> extend your range even when you have a full charge. The Low Speed >> Electric still requires help from time to time to get from point A to B. >> >> And, maybe, a bit of help from the lowspeed electric bicycle >> (http://lsebicycle.com) just might get him down a few pounds until he no >> longer needs the electric part. >> > The one thing I have going for me is that it is all flat and he seems > interested in riding the trail that was railroad and is now paved just for > biking and walking. It goes about 8 miles and only crosses 2 roads with > little traffic. > <SNIP> Whatever it takes, whateer it takes. I found myself sitting in the recliner way too much. I am semi retired. But the front steps had to be done in a sideways fashion. That was enough. I started riding a bike and it saved my life. Unfortunately, my left knee is swiss cheeze. I couldn't pedal the bike for as long as I needed to. Hence, the bike with the low impact electrics added to compensate. > >>> Tricky indeed. It always seems to be too little or too much. I usually >>> wind up with the extra stuff wrapped around the handlebars. >>> Spring were for art thou? >>> Bill Baka >> >> The summers here hits 105 and better for long stretches. It's a dry heat >> but 105 and better? You are going to sweat no matter what unless you are >> wearing NASA underwear. > > Yeah, > It hits 100 for about 30 days out of the summer here. Dry but when it goes > over 110 the pavement really gets to scorching. This is the area where > they made a movie and took bets on frying an egg on the road. > It didn't fry, but came close. Sounds to me like you need to have a gulley washer two or three to help out. >> >> In the Winter, just layer clothing it and gloves. The face needs to be >> covered when it hits in the low teens and single digits. Also, FENDERS. >> It's messy around here when it rains or snows. > > Fenders. I almost forgot they exist. Now that I think of it I haven't seen > fenders on any bike around here. It must be a California mind set. I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to clean my glasses at every stop. >> >> Other than that, I ride every day without fail. Rain, Shine, Snow, sleet >> or fair weather. That isn't something most can say. >> > I can't say it. Sometimes it is easier to just go out and run a bit, due > to the overwhelming junk collection in my garage. > Bill Baka Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 801 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                               Date: 07 Feb 2007 07:19:45 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:YMSxh.59129$wc5.10351@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... >> The one thing I have going for me is that it is all flat and he seems >> interested in riding the trail that was railroad and is now paved just for >> biking and walking. It goes about 8 miles and only crosses 2 roads with >> little traffic. >> <SNIP> > > Whatever it takes, whateer it takes. I found myself sitting in the recliner > way too much. I am semi retired. But the front steps had to be done in a > sideways fashion. That was enough. I started riding a bike and it saved my > life. Unfortunately, my left knee is swiss cheeze. I couldn't pedal the > bike for as long as I needed to. Hence, the bike with the low impact > electrics added to compensate. My knees are dead yet even though I has massive reconstruction on my right leg after shattering the Femur into the knee socket due to a cager crash (my cage). I am also semi-retired in the sense that work versus age is making it hard to find a job worth taking. You're 58, OK, we'll keep your resume (on the bottom of the pile). > >> Yeah, >> It hits 100 for about 30 days out of the summer here. Dry but when it goes >> over 110 the pavement really gets to scorching. This is the area where >> they made a movie and took bets on frying an egg on the road. >> It didn't fry, but came close. > > Sounds to me like you need to have a gulley washer two or three to help out. At this time we actually do need one since we are only at about 30% of a normal season. LA down in the south depends pretty much on OUR water. > > > I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to > clean my glasses at every stop. No, me neither, but it's the drivers with bad windshield wipers that I stay away from. > > >>> Other than that, I ride every day without fail. Rain, Shine, Snow, sleet >>> or fair weather. That isn't something most can say. >>> >> I can't say it. Sometimes it is easier to just go out and run a bit, due >> to the overwhelming junk collection in my garage. >> Bill Baka > > Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. > > No, mine wouldn't either, but that is why I run and not jog. Short sprints on my toes don't put any real impact on my knees but I can only run so far until I am flat out of breath. If I could only Jog then I wouldn't run, but I figure as long as I can run at a full run then I should do it. Not as many people give me that "too many Duis" look as when I am on the bike. Either way I get some kind of look for being an adult of some years and "Not acting my age" whatever that means. At least my hairs is still dark brown and no gray. Bill Baka                                                 Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:22:46 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:l4fyh.16271$zH1.15189@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> <SNIP> >> >> Whatever it takes, whateer it takes. I found myself sitting in the >> recliner way too much. I am semi retired. But the front steps had to be >> done in a sideways fashion. That was enough. I started riding a bike >> and it saved my life. Unfortunately, my left knee is swiss cheeze. I >> couldn't pedal the bike for as long as I needed to. Hence, the bike with >> the low impact electrics added to compensate. > > My knees are dead yet even though I has massive reconstruction on my right > leg after shattering the Femur into the knee socket due to a cager crash > (my cage). I am also semi-retired in the sense that work versus age is > making it hard to find a job worth taking. You're 58, OK, we'll keep your > resume (on the bottom of the pile). I'm about the same age. I am a Network Engineer in a city that is the end of techno sunlight. They want to hire me at 8 bucks an hour. Hell, I have my Retired AF pay and don't even get out of bed for 8 bucks an hour. I would rather work for myself for nothing. Which I sometimes do. Check out http://www.i70west.com It keeps me off the streets:) >> >>> Yeah, >>> It hits 100 for about 30 days out of the summer here. Dry but when it >>> goes over 110 the pavement really gets to scorching. This is the area >>> where they made a movie and took bets on frying an egg on the road. >>> It didn't fry, but came close. >> >> Sounds to me like you need to have a gulley washer two or three to help >> out. > > At this time we actually do need one since we are only at about 30% of a > normal season. LA down in the south depends pretty much on OUR water. Yah, I know. I can't wait for the next round of lawsuits over water between California and Colorado. Give you a hint, LA needs to learn how to stop drinking water like a Camel for what it's worth in Court the last couple of times. BTW, there will be more water coming down this year. We send X number per X million cubic feet. We have had a good winter. >> >> >> I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to >> clean my glasses at every stop. > > No, me neither, but it's the drivers with bad windshield wipers that I > stay away from. The same can be said for cyclists with dirty glasses. It's all relevant. >> >> >>>> Other than that, I ride every day without fail. Rain, Shine, Snow, >>>> sleet or fair weather. That isn't something most can say. >>>> >>> I can't say it. Sometimes it is easier to just go out and run a bit, due >>> to the overwhelming junk collection in my garage. >>> Bill Baka >> >> Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. >> >> No, mine wouldn't either, but that is why I run and not jog. Short > sprints on my toes don't put any real impact on my knees but I can only > run so far until I am flat out of breath. If I could only Jog then I > wouldn't run, but I figure as long as I can run at a full run then I > should do it. Not as many people give me that "too many Duis" look as when > I am on the bike. Either way I get some kind of look for being an adult of > some years and "Not acting my age" whatever that means. > At least my hairs is still dark brown and no gray. Well, Jokem if they can't take a F***. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 897 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                                   Date: 07 Feb 2007 23:58:52 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:l4fyh.16271$zH1.15189@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> My knees are dead yet even though I has massive reconstruction on my right >> leg after shattering the Femur into the knee socket due to a cager crash >> (my cage). I am also semi-retired in the sense that work versus age is >> making it hard to find a job worth taking. You're 58, OK, we'll keep your >> resume (on the bottom of the pile). > > I'm about the same age. I am a Network Engineer in a city that is the end > of techno sunlight. They want to hire me at 8 bucks an hour. Hell, I have > my Retired AF pay and don't even get out of bed for 8 bucks an hour. I > would rather work for myself for nothing. Which I sometimes do. Check out > http://www.i70west.com It keeps me off the streets:) Heh, I thought IT was supposed to be secure. I'm an analog designer and that went "poof" because everybody wants to go system on a chip. I work for myself right now by fixing computers and showing people how to use things. My dad told me to get a nice secure union job. Oh well... >> At this time we actually do need one since we are only at about 30% of a >> normal season. LA down in the south depends pretty much on OUR water. > > Yah, I know. I can't wait for the next round of lawsuits over water between > California and Colorado. Give you a hint, LA needs to learn how to stop > drinking water like a Camel for what it's worth in Court the last couple of > times. BTW, there will be more water coming down this year. We send X > number per X million cubic feet. We have had a good winter. I kind of figured California would be leeching other states for water for LA. The illegals' must be having fun flushing those neat indoor out houses. > >>> >>> I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to >>> clean my glasses at every stop. >> No, me neither, but it's the drivers with bad windshield wipers that I >> stay away from. > > > The same can be said for cyclists with dirty glasses. It's all relevant. > > Total agreement. > >>> Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. >>> >>> No, mine wouldn't either, but that is why I run and not jog. Short >> sprints on my toes don't put any real impact on my knees but I can only >> run so far until I am flat out of breath. If I could only Jog then I >> wouldn't run, but I figure as long as I can run at a full run then I >> should do it. Not as many people give me that "too many Duis" look as when >> I am on the bike. Either way I get some kind of look for being an adult of >> some years and "Not acting my age" whatever that means. >> At least my hairs is still dark brown and no gray. > > Well, Jokem if they can't take a F***. Yup, that's about the way I handle it. If any of DUI types gets arrogant I just ride faster and leave them. Amazing how out of shape even a 20 something can be. They don't or maybe can't ride at my speed when I get a little adrenalin going. I may not be in super shape but good enough to leave the average riders around hare. Bill Baka                                                     Date: 07 Feb 2007 17:51:52 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:0Jtyh.3305$gj4.2301@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:l4fyh.16271$zH1.15189@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >>> My knees are dead yet even though I has massive reconstruction on my >>> right leg after shattering the Femur into the knee socket due to a cager >>> crash (my cage). I am also semi-retired in the sense that work versus >>> age is making it hard to find a job worth taking. You're 58, OK, we'll >>> keep your resume (on the bottom of the pile). >> >> I'm about the same age. I am a Network Engineer in a city that is the >> end of techno sunlight. They want to hire me at 8 bucks an hour. Hell, >> I have my Retired AF pay and don't even get out of bed for 8 bucks an >> hour. I would rather work for myself for nothing. Which I sometimes do. >> Check out http://www.i70west.com It keeps me off the streets:) > > Heh, > I thought IT was supposed to be secure. I'm an analog designer and that > went "poof" because everybody wants to go system on a chip. I work for > myself right now by fixing computers and showing people how to use things. > My dad told me to get a nice secure union job. > Oh well... Not anymore in this area. There is a State College churning them out by the droves. They do more harm than good coming straight out but they are willing to work for 8 bucks an hour. > >>> At this time we actually do need one since we are only at about 30% of a >>> normal season. LA down in the south depends pretty much on OUR water. >> >> Yah, I know. I can't wait for the next round of lawsuits over water >> between California and Colorado. Give you a hint, LA needs to learn how >> to stop drinking water like a Camel for what it's worth in Court the last >> couple of times. BTW, there will be more water coming down this year. >> We send X number per X million cubic feet. We have had a good winter. > > I kind of figured California would be leeching other states for water for > LA. The illegals' must be having fun flushing those neat indoor out > houses. We have a standing joke here. Flush Twice, LA needs the water. >> >>>> >>>> I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to >>>> clean my glasses at every stop. >>> No, me neither, but it's the drivers with bad windshield wipers that I >>> stay away from. >> >> >> The same can be said for cyclists with dirty glasses. It's all relevant. >> > Total agreement. > >> >>>> Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. >>>> >>>> No, mine wouldn't either, but that is why I run and not jog. Short >>> sprints on my toes don't put any real impact on my knees but I can only >>> run so far until I am flat out of breath. If I could only Jog then I >>> wouldn't run, but I figure as long as I can run at a full run then I >>> should do it. Not as many people give me that "too many Duis" look as >>> when I am on the bike. Either way I get some kind of look for being an >>> adult of some years and "Not acting my age" whatever that means. >>> At least my hairs is still dark brown and no gray. >> >> Well, Jokem if they can't take a F***. > > Yup, that's about the way I handle it. If any of DUI types gets arrogant I > just ride faster and leave them. Amazing how out of shape even a 20 > something can be. They don't or maybe can't ride at my speed when I get a > little adrenalin going. I may not be in super shape but good enough to > leave the average riders around hare. > Bill Baka Adrenalin? Is that what you mix with Gin and Vermouth to make a really wet tini? I dopped my toonie but I did it woooonnerfullie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 940 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                                       Date: 08 Feb 2007 04:00:25 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:0Jtyh.3305$gj4.2301@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... >> Daryl Hunt wrote: >>> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:l4fyh.16271$zH1.15189@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >>>> My knees are dead yet even though I has massive reconstruction on my >>>> right leg after shattering the Femur into the knee socket due to a cager >>>> crash (my cage). I am also semi-retired in the sense that work versus >>>> age is making it hard to find a job worth taking. You're 58, OK, we'll >>>> keep your resume (on the bottom of the pile). >>> I'm about the same age. I am a Network Engineer in a city that is the >>> end of techno sunlight. They want to hire me at 8 bucks an hour. Hell, >>> I have my Retired AF pay and don't even get out of bed for 8 bucks an >>> hour. I would rather work for myself for nothing. Which I sometimes do. >>> Check out http://www.i70west.com It keeps me off the streets:) >> Heh, >> I thought IT was supposed to be secure. I'm an analog designer and that >> went "poof" because everybody wants to go system on a chip. I work for >> myself right now by fixing computers and showing people how to use things. >> My dad told me to get a nice secure union job. >> Oh well... > > Not anymore in this area. There is a State College churning them out by the > droves. They do more harm than good coming straight out but they are > willing to work for 8 bucks an hour. And yet the trade magazines call it a "hot" ket. The last time I worked in a cubicle the IT guy had to run his ass off to keep all the Winders stuff working. > > >>>> At this time we actually do need one since we are only at about 30% of a >>>> normal season. LA down in the south depends pretty much on OUR water. >>> Yah, I know. I can't wait for the next round of lawsuits over water >>> between California and Colorado. Give you a hint, LA needs to learn how >>> to stop drinking water like a Camel for what it's worth in Court the last >>> couple of times. BTW, there will be more water coming down this year. >>> We send X number per X million cubic feet. We have had a good winter. >> I kind of figured California would be leeching other states for water for >> LA. The illegals' must be having fun flushing those neat indoor out >> houses. > > We have a standing joke here. Flush Twice, LA needs the water. Sounds about right. > > >>>>> I just don't care for the old "Brown" stripe in the front and having to >>>>> clean my glasses at every stop. >>>> No, me neither, but it's the drivers with bad windshield wipers that I >>>> stay away from. >>> >>> The same can be said for cyclists with dirty glasses. It's all relevant. >>> >> Total agreement. >> >>>>> Like I said, my left knee won't put up with that for long. >>>>> >>>>> No, mine wouldn't either, but that is why I run and not jog. Short >>>> sprints on my toes don't put any real impact on my knees but I can only >>>> run so far until I am flat out of breath. If I could only Jog then I >>>> wouldn't run, but I figure as long as I can run at a full run then I >>>> should do it. Not as many people give me that "too many Duis" look as >>>> when I am on the bike. Either way I get some kind of look for being an >>>> adult of some years and "Not acting my age" whatever that means. >>>> At least my hairs is still dark brown and no gray. >>> Well, Jokem if they can't take a F***. >> Yup, that's about the way I handle it. If any of DUI types gets arrogant I >> just ride faster and leave them. Amazing how out of shape even a 20 >> something can be. They don't or maybe can't ride at my speed when I get a >> little adrenalin going. I may not be in super shape but good enough to >> leave the average riders around hare. >> Bill Baka > > Adrenalin? Is that what you mix with Gin and Vermouth to make a really wet > tini? > > I dopped my toonie but I did it woooonnerfullie > > Yeah, I wish. Bill Baka                                                         Date: 08 Feb 2007 10:05:20 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:tfxyh.74398$qO4.19216@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net... > Daryl Hunt wrote: >> "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message >> news:0Jtyh.3305$gj4.2301@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... >>> Daryl Hunt wrote: >> Not anymore in this area. There is a State College churning them out by >> the droves. They do more harm than good coming straight out but they are >> willing to work for 8 bucks an hour. > > And yet the trade magazines call it a "hot" ket. The last time I worked > in a cubicle the IT guy had to run his ass off to keep all the Winders > stuff working. I don't seem to have that problem. I IT for the whole office building complex. If you do it right the first time and have a standing death penalty to employees that don't request training then what you described can happen. A real successful IT needs to be a Technician, a Trainer, a Discipliarian, and many other things to be successful. Most Corporations and Universities don't have that luxury. What's bad is, the Hacks that cause the problem sound more convincing than the experienced IT does. And the Hack will work for less. Been nice jabbering atcha. It looks we have completely strayed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1010 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                                         Date: 05 Feb 2007 12:18:47 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Baka wrote: :: He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging :: him :: to "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger :: than me, have died in the last two years, and neither would have :: happened if they were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am :: going to remind him :: of this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have :: to try. Now that's a very good thing to do, IMO. You know it's much easier for someone to get out on a bike if they have a more experienced person leading the way. Good for you, Bill! Please report on your efforts during the course of the year.                                           Date: 06 Feb 2007 00:31:51 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Bill Baka wrote: > > :: He is becoming a target for me riding over to his house and bugging > :: him > :: to "Get the bike out." kind of harassment. Two people, both younger > :: than me, have died in the last two years, and neither would have > :: happened if they were in somewhat better shape. In his case I am > :: going to remind him > :: of this and nag. Knowing him we may bike to a restaurant, but I have > :: to try. > > Now that's a very good thing to do, IMO. You know it's much easier for > someone to get out on a bike if they have a more experienced person leading > the way. Good for you, Bill! Please report on your efforts during the > course of the year. > > > 10-4 Bill                     Date: 02 Feb 2007 11:41:45 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12s666q96amn598@news.supernews.com... > Daryl Hunt wrote: > :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > :: news:12s466edcss9962@news.supernews.com... > ::: Janet wrote: > ::::: Werehatrack wrote: > :::::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" > :::::: <dhunt@colwestnospam.com> may have said: > :::::: > :::::: > ::::::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric > ::::::: Bicycles (legal term). > ::::::: > ::::::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 > ::::::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. > ::::::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain > ::::::: Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. > :::::: > :::::: > :::::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. > :::::: > :::::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go > :::::: 30mph for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of > :::::: sustained output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be > :::::: keted to the riders who might be able to achieve the result > :::::: with a *suitable* bike, because even the keting people are > :::::: st enough to know that the real racers are not going to > :::::: believe the hype. Well, *most* of them won't, anyway. > :::::: > :::::: > ::::::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 > ::::::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are > ::::::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you > ::::::: want to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra > ::::::: 40 pounds or so. > :::::: > :::::: > :::::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy > :::::: world where we can do what we likes! > :::::: > :::::: > ::::::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low > ::::::: Speed Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as > ::::::: an absessed tooth. > :::::: > :::::: > :::::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the > :::::: snobs would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders > :::::: aboard an electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical > :::::: limitation (other than simple lack of conditioning) which makes > :::::: it impractical or impossible to participate without the assist, > :::::: even the majority of the purists would, in my limited > :::::: experience, accept such a rider and bike. You're still right, > :::::: though. There would be a group that would stand well away, > :::::: never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide reks; > :::::: it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the > :::::: assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch > :::::: potato. > :::::: > ::::: > ::::: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to > ::::: become a non-couch potato might need a little assistance going > ::::: uphill while in the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe > ::::: just having a little help with the tougher parts will keep the > ::::: couch potato from becoming discouraged by the process. > ::::: > ::: > ::: Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to > ::: improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this. > :: > :: This one did. In fact, it was such a good idea, I became an Electric > :: Bicycle Dealer. And I lost 20 lbs in the process. > > One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight. There might be but this is the one I chose and it works without a heavy impact on anything including my swiss cheeze knees. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 391 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                 Date: 01 Feb 2007 19:44:14 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Janet wrote: > :: Werehatrack wrote: > ::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt" > ::: <dhunt@colwestnospam.com> may have said: > ::: > ::: > :::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric > :::: Bicycles (legal term). > :::: > :::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 > :::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen. > :::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike > :::: can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race. > ::: > ::: > ::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims. > ::: > ::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph > ::: for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained > ::: output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be keted to the > ::: riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* > ::: bike, because even the keting people are st enough to know > ::: that the real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, > ::: *most* of them won't, anyway. > ::: > ::: > :::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200 > :::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are > :::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want > :::: to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds > :::: or so. > ::: > ::: > ::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world > ::: where we can do what we likes! > ::: > ::: > :::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed > :::: Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an > :::: absessed tooth. > ::: > ::: > ::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs > ::: would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an > ::: electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other > ::: than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or > ::: impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of > ::: the purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider > ::: and bike. You're still right, though. There would be a group that > ::: would stand well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and > ::: make snide reks; it would just be much smaller than would be the > ::: case if the assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere > ::: couch potato. > ::: > :: > :: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a > :: non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in > :: the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little > :: help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming > :: discouraged by the process. > :: > > Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to > improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this. > > My experience with couch potatoes has been that they want to stay that way and just watch life go by on the television screen. Two of my friends are like that, one a retired computer potato, and the other a still working industrial plant mechanic. The first guy is hopelessly a computer addict that I have been trying to get on a bike for over a year, but his Cannondale just sits there looking lonely. The other says how hard he worked and just plops on the couch. The catch is that I worked with him for 3 months as a contract hire and I know that the work is not physically demanding. How does one motivate such people to get up and literally save their own lives? Even my uncle got his 'wings' at only 72 due to the couch potato life style. I guess, in essence my point is that if an electric gets them out on the road maybe they will enjoy it enough to pedal and not just think of it as a slow motorcycle. I know the elite snobs will just blow it off, but then again most of the snobs I know are in the 30'ish age range and have yet to experience getting older. Now I go, lest I be accused of an overly long rant. Bill Baka                   Date: 01 Feb 2007 14:32:37 From: Werehatrack Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:44:14 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net > may have said: >Now I go, lest I be accused of an overly long rant. By comparison to the rambling and/or virulent output of the rantmasters (the "n" is optional IMO) that have been seen too much at times, your measured and reasoned commentary is downright scholarly and reserved. This time, anyway. -- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.       Date: 30 Jan 2007 10:00:31 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack :: <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote: :: ::: ::: AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in ::: sanctioned bicycle events, period. :: :: Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense :: of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't :: permit power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs :: applying for permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo :: or so. :: :: I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and :: just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too :: many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - :: they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, :: since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept :: them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your :: feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. :: I think if they showed up on a fund raiser you'd have to accept them with the same rules as any rider.         Date: 30 Jan 2007 17:02:30 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:12run5qdo52nv70@news.supernews.com... > Curtis L. Russell wrote: > :: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack > :: <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote: > :: > ::: > ::: AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in > ::: sanctioned bicycle events, period. > :: > :: Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense > :: of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't > :: permit power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs > :: applying for permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo > :: or so. > :: > :: I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and > :: just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too > :: many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away - > :: they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course, > :: since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept > :: them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your > :: feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course. > :: > > I think if they showed up on a fund raiser you'd have to accept them with > the same rules as any rider. I made a point that the "Pure" Cyclists won't make the Low Speed Electric very welcome. I see this almost on a daily basis. Daryl Hunt http://lsebicycle.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 33 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!           Date: 31 Jan 2007 07:29:42 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message :: news:12run5qdo52nv70@news.supernews.com... ::: Curtis L. Russell wrote: ::::: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack ::::: <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net > wrote: ::::: :::::: :::::: AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in :::::: sanctioned bicycle events, period. ::::: ::::: Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the ::::: sense of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC ::::: wouldn't permit power assist of course, but they don't have many ::::: clubs applying for permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are ::::: 40 kilo or so. ::::: ::::: I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee ::::: and just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt ::::: that too many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn ::::: them away - they would probably just tell them to ride ::::: responsibly. Of course, since there are few closed course ::::: centuries, your choice is to accept them or have them along ::::: unofficially. You can keep them out of your feed areas, but you ::::: can't keep them off the course. ::::: ::: ::: I think if they showed up on a fund raiser you'd have to accept ::: them with the same rules as any rider. :: :: I made a point that the "Pure" Cyclists won't make the Low Speed :: Electric very welcome. I see this almost on a daily basis. Likely.   Date: 29 Jan 2007 05:50:52 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Jan 28, 12:41 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com Right after that you will have to dodge little moped scooters, trailing their signature blue smoke..always 10%, always idiots everywhere.   Date: 29 Jan 2007 04:36:48 From: Janet Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com > > > If you're running an organized event, you may want to check with the local jurisdiction. Whether or not these electric bikes are legal on public roads varies from town to town..... I would guess if it's an organized event, you cannot allow them if they are illegal where you are riding, but otherwise, if it's a timed event either have a separate category for "power assisted bikes" or just make them ineligible for competition purposes. But as others said, just for the social aspect, or the "doing somthing other than being a couch potato", then why not allow them to ride (unless there's a saftey problem that I don't know about) Janet   Date: 29 Jan 2007 03:48:52 From: Ryan Cousineau Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In article <E%6vh.14142$ji1.920@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net >, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... Well...I would think that on one hand, it hardly makes sense to keep their times, but on the other hand, an electric (or electric-assist) bike is not a completely horrible thing. Some of it depends on your jurisdiction: locally an electric-assist bike that has an electric-powered top speed of less than 32 km/h on level ground and "a continuous power rating of less than 500 watts" is usable as if it were a bicycle (no license, no registration, use bike lanes, etc.) http://scooterteq.com/ebike_regs_bc.htm My inclination is for charity rides and casual or popular group rides to allow an "electric-assist" category because such riders aren't really likely to cause a problem (at least as long as their batteries last...). I think the bright line would pretty much be randonees of any type, since the finishing times are logged (though these are not races). Moreover, the rule with randos is that you can draft any vehicle on the course, but you can't prearrange for a drafting vehicle. E-bikes in the same ride add a new wrinkle, and are a bit bigger problem than the occasional tandemist (heck, the last time I did the Pacific Populaire, I didn't see a tandem rig after the first 50 feet; I was in with the fast group). That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized century on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for the last quarter of the ride. -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos     Date: 29 Jan 2007 17:54:27 From: William Asher Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Ryan Cousineau wrote: <snip > > > That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized > century on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for > the last quarter of the ride. > Would you be willing to help them finish if they were towing the LIVEDRUNK- tm cooler? -- Bill Asher       Date: 29 Jan 2007 14:11:33 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On 29 Jan 2007 17:54:27 GMT, William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote: >Ryan Cousineau wrote: > ><snip> >> >> That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized >> century on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for >> the last quarter of the ride. >> > >Would you be willing to help them finish if they were towing the LIVEDRUNK- >tm cooler? One would hope that we all finish enough centuries that if they were towing the LIVEDRUNK cooler, we would have the good judgement to stay behind and help lighten the load. There is always next week to finish another century. I always thought about towing a loaded trailer behind the tandem, with the intent to ride the slowest allowable century rather than the fastest. I think we could do two standard coolers and a 5 gallon round one of lemonade.   Date: 29 Jan 2007 00:15:11 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com > > > Let them in but don't count their times. If they just want to be in a social ride environment and not watching a football game on television they will be getting a fair amount of exercise even with a battery assisted bike. I think the combination of football games and television is one of the worst things ever to happen to our way of life. Recumbents with batteries, maybe not THAT bad??? I make it a point never to turn down someone who wants to ride along, whether it's my grandkids, or just someone I overtake on a ride. Accept the inevitable, that some people won't ride unless they have a way out of getting themselves too tired, and the batteries are their emergency lifeline. Better than not riding at all. Bill Baka   Date: 28 Jan 2007 23:49:17 From: mike vore Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... > Forget what happens at the beginning of the ride. Wait till one of those 'riders' tries to brag about riding 100 miles to a cyclist that pedaled the entire (or even most) of the distance. The 'lectric rider will get laughed out of town, "What a WIMP!" -- Mike Vore http://www.OhMyWoodness.com http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr     Date: 28 Jan 2007 16:44:51 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries mike vore wrote: > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >> As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News >> about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations >> (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm >> thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive >> to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. >> >> Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design >> he's trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a >> charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- >> >> What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for >> that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, >> it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an >> issue... >> > > Forget what happens at the beginning of the ride. Wait till one of those > 'riders' tries to brag about riding 100 miles to a cyclist that pedaled > the entire (or even most) of the distance. The 'lectric rider will get > laughed out of town, "What a WIMP!" > > > > WIMP maybe, but better than sitting on a couch drinking beer and watching football. Double that if he were to run out of beer and drive to the store for more at half time. The electric bike might just keep one more bad driver off the road, so I would cut him some slack just for the cause and effect point of view. If he's riding an electric bike at least he isn't going to run you down with a car. Bill Baka   Date: 28 Jan 2007 16:47:58 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:41:24 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about > newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds > 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah, > same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause > parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc. > > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- > > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that > matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a > non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue... Batteries with very high power densities are becoming cheaper, longer-lived, and more widely available. So there's a good chance well see significant improvements in electric bikes. Matt O.   Date: 28 Jan 2007 21:24:35 From: Mike Causer Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:41:24 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's > trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds > greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering- It's true! Elvis was right behind me at the 7-11 checkout, he's put some money into this and he told me all about it!!!!!! > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for > that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? Laughter. Showing up at the *end* of 100 miles is a different case. Mike   Date: 28 Jan 2007 15:32:39 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: :: As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News :: about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations :: (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), :: I'm thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, :: expensive to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes :: etc. :: :: Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design :: he's trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a :: charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm :: wondering- :: :: What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for :: that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, :: it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer :: an issue... Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist? Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied 'bike' rides. Also, what would ride organizers say to someone who wanted to ride a moped in a century? Is the difference between gas powerd and electricity powered significant?     Date: 30 Jan 2007 18:50:01 From: OldGirl Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries A couple of clarifications: 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a bicycle. This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, some require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited to 20 mph is a bike. 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles on a charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary batteries). The rider has to make a significant pedalling contribution for the charge to last that long, and fully loaded with auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, but it does pretty much look like a mountain bike. Here is the link: http://www.optibike.com/       Date: 31 Jan 2007 19:04:15 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries OldGirl wrote: > A couple of clarifications: > > 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric > motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a bicycle. > This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, some > require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited to > 20 mph is a bike. > > 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles on a > charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary batteries). The rider > has to make a significant pedalling contribution for the charge to last that > long, and fully loaded with auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, but > it does pretty much look like a mountain bike. Here is the link: > http://www.optibike.com/ > > I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. They are also making flaky claims like it was in a 103 mile ride, but (small print) with a battery change. The keting guys are burying the truth in hype, as usual. Bill Baka         Date: 31 Jan 2007 21:10:47 From: Bill Bushnell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries In rec.bicycles.misc Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote: > I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has > a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative > braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. Regenerative braking is overrated. The best implementations of regenerative braking occur on electric bikes with hub motors, and even then there are limits on the current that can be dumped into a battery. If one rides in hills, the overall efficiency is higher when running a smaller, lighter motor through the bicycle's gears. Below is a link to a white paper that discusses why regenerative braking is generally not practical on electric bikes. http://ecospeed.net/regenbraking.pdf -- Bill Bushnell http://pobox.com/~bushnell/           Date: 01 Feb 2007 00:35:40 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Bill Bushnell wrote: > In rec.bicycles.misc Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote: >> I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has >> a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative >> braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. > > Regenerative braking is overrated. The best implementations of regenerative > braking occur on electric bikes with hub motors, and even then there are limits > on the current that can be dumped into a battery. If one rides in hills, the > overall efficiency is higher when running a smaller, lighter motor through the > bicycle's gears. > > Below is a link to a white paper that discusses why regenerative braking is > generally not practical on electric bikes. > > http://ecospeed.net/regenbraking.pdf > I can't get to that site since my firewall thinks it is bad, so..... Anyway, I get the part about regenerative braking since there is nowhere near the amount of mass/inertia like a car, so it would only be effective on downhill runs. That, in itself, would take the fun out of trying for the fastest possible speed on a downhill. Fast descents are the reward for chugging up a hill in the first place. Conclusion? It's a wash. Bill Baka       Date: 31 Jan 2007 07:31:00 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries OldGirl wrote: :: 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles :: on a charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary :: batteries). The rider has to make a significant pedalling :: contribution for the charge to last that long, and fully loaded with :: auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, but it does pretty much :: look like a mountain bike. Here is the link: :: http://www.optibike.com/ Hauling at 75 lb monster 100 miles and dealing with batteries? Why? It can't be fun.       Date: 31 Jan 2007 03:07:54 From: Kristian M Zoerhoff Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On 2007-01-31, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com > wrote: > A couple of clarifications: > > 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric > motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a bicycle. > This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, some > require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited to > 20 mph is a bike. Can you please cite? This conflicts with (at a minimum) Illinois state law, so I'm quite naturally curious about it. -- __o Kristian Zoerhoff _'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com (_)/ (_)         Date: 01 Feb 2007 07:46:45 From: OldGirl Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Kristian M Zoerhoff" <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote in message news:eKTvh.57350$wc5.44622@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > On 2007-01-31, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com> wrote: >> A couple of clarifications: >> >> 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric >> motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a >> bicycle. >> This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, >> some >> require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited >> to >> 20 mph is a bike. > > Can you please cite? This conflicts with (at a minimum) Illinois state > law, so > I'm quite naturally curious about it. > Public Law 107-319, section 1, 116 Stat. 2776. The Act defines the term ``low-speed electric bicycle'' as follows: (b) for purposes of this section, the term ``low-speed electric bicycle'' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.           Date: 01 Feb 2007 16:43:30 From: Kristian M Zoerhoff Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.] On 2007-02-01, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com > wrote: > > "Kristian M Zoerhoff" <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:eKTvh.57350$wc5.44622@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... >> On 2007-01-31, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com> wrote: >>> A couple of clarifications: >>> >>> 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric >>> motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a >>> bicycle. >>> This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, >>> some >>> require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited >>> to >>> 20 mph is a bike. >> >> Can you please cite? This conflicts with (at a minimum) Illinois state >> law, so >> I'm quite naturally curious about it. >> > > Public Law 107-319, section 1, 116 Stat. 2776. > The Act defines the term ``low-speed electric bicycle'' as follows: > > > (b) for purposes of this section, the term ``low-speed electric > bicycle'' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable > pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose > maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such > a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less > than 20 mph. OK, I figured this is what was being referenced. However, this law relates only to required /equipment/ for motor vehicles; the above definition (which is, as stated, "for purposes of this section") is restricted in scope to this arena, and has no bearing on operational regulations or operator licensing by the states. In practice, this law prevents states from classifying electric bikes as motorcycles and forcing the requisite lights and turn signals on them, but nothing else. Taking Illinois as my example, this is moot, as electric bikes are classified as mopeds, which have the same equipment restrictions as bicycles (except that the operator's eyes must be protected by a clear shield of some kind -- a helmet is sufficient). I did see a related US law that required bike paths built with federal funding to allow electric bikes; that one is the more interesting law to me, as virtually all MUPs around here lately are built with CMAQ funds. <http://www.electric-bikes.com/legal.htm > seems to have a decent discussion of the legal issues involved, though the details are fuzzy (his IL data, for example, says 25 mph when the law online says 30). -- __o Kristian Zoerhoff _'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com (_)/ (_)             Date: 01 Feb 2007 11:05:21 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Kristian M Zoerhoff" <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote in message news:SMowh.2321$4H1.253@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net... > ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.] > On 2007-02-01, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com> wrote: >> >> "Kristian M Zoerhoff" <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:eKTvh.57350$wc5.44622@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... >>> On 2007-01-31, OldGirl <oldgirl@rr.com> wrote: >>>> A couple of clarifications: >>>> >>>> 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an >>>> electric >>>> motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a >>>> bicycle. >>>> This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, >>>> some >>>> require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike >>>> limited >>>> to >>>> 20 mph is a bike. >>> >>> Can you please cite? This conflicts with (at a minimum) Illinois state >>> law, so >>> I'm quite naturally curious about it. >>> >> >> Public Law 107-319, section 1, 116 Stat. 2776. >> The Act defines the term ``low-speed electric bicycle'' as follows: >> >> >> (b) for purposes of this section, the term ``low-speed electric >> bicycle'' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable >> pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose >> maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such >> a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less >> than 20 mph. > > OK, I figured this is what was being referenced. However, this law relates > only to required /equipment/ for motor vehicles; the above definition > (which is, as stated, "for purposes of this section") is restricted in > scope to this arena, and has no bearing on operational regulations or > operator licensing by the states. And it specifically states "A Low Speed Electric Bicycle is not a motorized vehicle". Plus, it's in the same section that Bicycles are in the Consumer Protection, HR 727, S.1156, Presidential Order all state the same thing. It's no longer just pertaining to construction. The Low Speed Electric Bicycle (proper legal term) cannot go faster than 20 mph. It can be argued that it must be below 20mph. A 49cc Motorized Bicycle must be able to maintain 25mph and not exceed 30mph. The Low Speed Electric Bicycle is not listed under the National Highway and Transportation Act (DOT and NHTA) where all other Motorized Vehicles are. It's listed under the Consumer Protection Act of US Consumer Product Safety Commission 16 CFR Part 1512 Here is the law as it's written. Pursuant to Executive Order No. 12988, the Commission states the preemptive effect of this regulation as follows. Section 1 of the Act provides that its requirements ``shall supercede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a)[the Commission's regulations on bicycles at 16 CFR part 1512].'' Public Law No. 107-319, section 1, 116 Stat. 2776. Sec. 1512.2. (2) A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph. > > In practice, this law prevents states from classifying electric bikes as > motorcycles and forcing the requisite lights and turn signals on them, > but nothing else. Taking Illinois as my example, this is moot, as > electric bikes are classified as mopeds, which have the same equipment > restrictions as bicycles (except that the operator's eyes must be > protected by a clear shield of some kind -- a helmet is sufficient). > > I did see a related US law that required bike paths built with federal > funding to allow electric bikes; that one is the more interesting law > to me, as virtually all MUPs around here lately are built with CMAQ > funds. > > <http://www.electric-bikes.com/legal.htm> seems to have a decent > discussion > of the legal issues involved, though the details are fuzzy (his IL data, > for example, says 25 mph when the law online says 30). Good article but there are subjectives in it. Here is the HR (house) and S. (senate) that got the ball rolling. HR 727 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:5:./temp/~c107Bse9XK:: S.1156 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:S.1156: The real kicker is in the intent of the law. The S.1156 does quote a NHTA law showing it's exemption from being treated as a Motorized Vehicle. SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS. For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Co Then we have to look at section 30102(6) of title 49. This is the definitions by NHTA standards of what a Motorized Vehicle is. And according to S.1156, HR 727, Presidential Executive Order and the Consumer Protection Act, the low speed electric bike as define is exempt from 30102(6) of title 49 as a Motorized Vehicle. You mighti wish to look at Title 49. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00030102----000-.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 259 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!               Date: 02 Feb 2007 16:52:52 From: Kristian M Zoerhoff Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On 2007-02-01, Daryl Hunt <dhunt@colwestnospam.com > wrote: > > The real kicker is in the intent of the law. The S.1156 does quote a NHTA > law showing it's exemption from being treated as a Motorized Vehicle. > > SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS. > > For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced > pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed > electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety > Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) > of title 49, United States Co > Then we have to look at section 30102(6) of title 49. This is the > definitions by NHTA standards of what a Motorized Vehicle is. And according > to S.1156, HR 727, Presidential Executive Order and the Consumer Protection > Act, the low speed electric bike as define is exempt from 30102(6) of title > 49 as a Motorized Vehicle. > You mighti wish to look at Title 49. > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00030102----000-.html I have looked at Title 49, and I stand by my claim that it doesn't pertain to operating or licensing of vehicles, only safety standards. That said, I'm not a lawyer. I don't believe that you're a lawyer, either. Thus, we might as well be arguing angels on the head of a pin. Eventually, things will settle out, due either to pressure from electric bike manufacturers, or from consumers, and the laws will (slowly) become more uniform. To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes. -- __o Kristian Zoerhoff _'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com (_)/ (_)                 Date: 03 Feb 2007 03:44:11 From: bob prohaska's usenet account Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote: > > To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether > electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least > for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes. Very few electric vehicles perform well at 100 mile range. A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question will only become important if electric bikes start _winning_ centuries consistently. The world would be a better place if that happened. bob prohaska                   Date: 04 Feb 2007 09:11:16 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:44:11 GMT, bob prohaska's usenet account <bp@www.zefox.net > wrote: >A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty >and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question >will only become important if electric bikes start _winning_ >centuries consistently. What centuries are won, other than a century sanctioned by USCF/USAC or similar sports oriented groups? They DO have restrictions on what entries are permitted for class events and what are permitted to enter at all. What we need are more restrictions on calling non-competitive events 'races' that are 'won' by annoying individuals that talk like everyone was competing. These annoying people by and large are not going to compete in an event with shals, motor officials checking on drafting, or real time keepers that don't subtract for time spent flat footed eating a banana. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...                     Date: 04 Feb 2007 14:30:36 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: > On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:44:11 GMT, bob prohaska's usenet account > <bp@www.zefox.net> wrote: > >> A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty >> and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question >> will only become important if electric bikes start _winning_ >> centuries consistently. > > What centuries are won, other than a century sanctioned by USCF/USAC > or similar sports oriented groups? They DO have restrictions on what > entries are permitted for class events and what are permitted to enter > at all. > > What we need are more restrictions on calling non-competitive events > 'races' that are 'won' by annoying individuals that talk like everyone > was competing. These annoying people by and large are not going to > compete in an event with shals, motor officials checking on > drafting, or real time keepers that don't subtract for time spent flat > footed eating a banana. > > Curtis L. Russell > Odenton, MD (USA) > Just someone on two wheels... I think that before somebody started calling every thing a 'race' I did mention that we have charity 'ride', not race here. It is called "ride' around the buttes", not race. Out of about a thousand 'riders' maybe a dozen or so make it into a race, and they are downright UN-sociable with all of us casual riders. I usually head out first at the earliest start time and I make the first 10 mile rest stop alone and may even help them get things set up. About 5 miles into the next 10 mile leg I get passed by a mini-peleton and they don't even bother to say hello. I don't see anybody until the next (20 mile) rest stop where the more fit riders start to catch up to me and the socializing starts. The sponsors repeat that it is not a race and ***don't** race due to the occasional pack of casual riders. I only ride at 12---15 MPH so I can meet and talk to new people, and that is fine with me. Bill Baka                       Date: 05 Feb 2007 10:13:54 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net > wrote in message news:g6mxh.24774$yC5.11648@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > Curtis L. Russell wrote: >> On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:44:11 GMT, bob prohaska's usenet account >> <bp@www.zefox.net> wrote: >> >>> A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty >>> and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question will only >>> become important if electric bikes start _winning_ >>> centuries consistently. >> >> What centuries are won, other than a century sanctioned by USCF/USAC >> or similar sports oriented groups? They DO have restrictions on what >> entries are permitted for class events and what are permitted to enter >> at all. >> >> What we need are more restrictions on calling non-competitive events >> 'races' that are 'won' by annoying individuals that talk like everyone >> was competing. These annoying people by and large are not going to >> compete in an event with shals, motor officials checking on >> drafting, or real time keepers that don't subtract for time spent flat >> footed eating a banana. >> >> Curtis L. Russell >> Odenton, MD (USA) >> Just someone on two wheels... > > I think that before somebody started calling every thing a 'race' I did > mention that we have charity 'ride', not race here. It is called "ride' > around the buttes", not race. Out of about a thousand 'riders' maybe a > dozen or so make it into a race, and they are downright UN-sociable with > all of us casual riders. I usually head out first at the earliest start > time and I make the first 10 mile rest stop alone and may even help them > get things set up. About 5 miles into the next 10 mile leg I get passed by > a mini-peleton and they don't even bother to say hello. I don't see > anybody until the next (20 mile) rest stop where the more fit riders start > to catch up to me and the socializing starts. The sponsors repeat that it > is not a race and ***don't** race due to the occasional pack of casual > riders. I only ride at 12---15 MPH so I can meet and talk to new people, > and that is fine with me. > Bill Baka 12 to 15 MPH, I could ride with you for about 20 to 25 miles on the Electric if I help the electrics out a bit at that speed and carry double battery packs. A Skinny dude can almost do that with a single pack if he helps out a lot and lays low on the electric power for only help on the hills. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 674 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!                         Date: 06 Feb 2007 03:57:24 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Daryl Hunt wrote: > "Bill Baka" <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:g6mxh.24774$yC5.11648@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >> Curtis L. Russell wrote: >>> On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:44:11 GMT, bob prohaska's usenet account >>> <bp@www.zefox.net> wrote: >>> >>>> A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty >>>> and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question will only >>>> become important if electric bikes start _winning_ >>>> centuries consistently. >>> What centuries are won, other than a century sanctioned by USCF/USAC >>> or similar sports oriented groups? They DO have restrictions on what >>> entries are permitted for class events and what are permitted to enter >>> at all. >>> >>> What we need are more restrictions on calling non-competitive events >>> 'races' that are 'won' by annoying individuals that talk like everyone >>> was competing. These annoying people by and large are not going to >>> compete in an event with shals, motor officials checking on >>> drafting, or real time keepers that don't subtract for time spent flat >>> footed eating a banana. >>> >>> Curtis L. Russell >>> Odenton, MD (USA) >>> Just someone on two wheels... >> I think that before somebody started calling every thing a 'race' I did >> mention that we have charity 'ride', not race here. It is called "ride' >> around the buttes", not race. Out of about a thousand 'riders' maybe a >> dozen or so make it into a race, and they are downright UN-sociable with >> all of us casual riders. I usually head out first at the earliest start >> time and I make the first 10 mile rest stop alone and may even help them >> get things set up. About 5 miles into the next 10 mile leg I get passed by >> a mini-peleton and they don't even bother to say hello. I don't see >> anybody until the next (20 mile) rest stop where the more fit riders start >> to catch up to me and the socializing starts. The sponsors repeat that it >> is not a race and ***don't** race due to the occasional pack of casual >> riders. I only ride at 12---15 MPH so I can meet and talk to new people, >> and that is fine with me. >> Bill Baka > > 12 to 15 MPH, I could ride with you for about 20 to 25 miles on the Electric > if I help the electrics out a bit at that speed and carry double battery > packs. A Skinny dude can almost do that with a single pack if he helps out > a lot and lays low on the electric power for only help on the hills. > Well...., The ride starts out with about 10 miles of rolling hills that remind me of the Wisconsin/Illinois border area. You crank up about 30 to 50 feet of hill and then down the same amount, repeat about 20 times and you get to the first rest stop. If I do it right I can pedal to keep my speed up and almost make the next hill on momentum. I average about 12 MPH what with the pit stops and talking to people. It's the one time a year when all the cyclists get together. Bill Baka                 Date: 02 Feb 2007 11:45:34 From: Daryl Hunt Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Kristian M Zoerhoff" <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote in message news:E%Jwh.6056$zH1.4213@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > On 2007-02-01, Daryl Hunt <dhunt@colwestnospam.com> wrote: >> >> The real kicker is in the intent of the law. The S.1156 does quote a >> NHTA >> law showing it's exemption from being treated as a Motorized Vehicle. >> >> SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS. >> >> For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced >> pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed >> electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product >> Safety >> Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section >> 30102(6) >> of title 49, United States Co >> Then we have to look at section 30102(6) of title 49. This is the >> definitions by NHTA standards of what a Motorized Vehicle is. And >> according >> to S.1156, HR 727, Presidential Executive Order and the Consumer >> Protection >> Act, the low speed electric bike as define is exempt from 30102(6) of >> title >> 49 as a Motorized Vehicle. >> You mighti wish to look at Title 49. >> >> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00030102----000-.html > > I have looked at Title 49, and I stand by my claim that it doesn't pertain > to operating or licensing of vehicles, only safety standards. > > That said, I'm not a lawyer. I don't believe that you're a lawyer, either. > Thus, we might as well be arguing angels on the head of a pin. Eventually, > things will settle out, due either to pressure from electric bike > manufacturers, or from consumers, and the laws will (slowly) become more > uniform. > > To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether > electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least > for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes. Actually, I don't see a short (10 mile) ride being a problem with anyone for both Electrics and Non Electrics. I do see a 100 mile run as more than a little problem. 40 lbs or so of extra weight and it can only be done stly with a MB or a Cruiser, the 100 miles would not be done by anyone other than a real fanatic. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 391 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!     Date: 30 Jan 2007 18:42:53 From: OldGirl Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries > :: > :: Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design > :: he's trying to bring to ket that will go over 100 miles on a > :: charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm > :: wondering- > :: > This bike - if it really existed which I believe it does about as much as a car that never needs repairs - would not be brought to ket. There are bikes now that go 100 miles on a charge but they are pretty heavy because loaded up with batteries. There is already one electric bike on the ket that looks pretty much like a regular mountain bike that has that capability, but it doesn't go 30 mph. To go 30 mph on one charge would be a pretty heavy vehicle. Legally electric bikes have to be limited to 20 mph or they are required to be registered as cars. There will be electric scooter (and there are) that go faster than 20 mph, but most electric bikes of that nature are developed with pedals because many state laws require there to be pedals. The manufacturers and distributors are extremely conscious of the need to keep the vehicles "bicycles". There are already people with electric assisted bikes on charity rides and organized rides. People that I've talked to who have used them have been mostly older and would not have participated without the electric assist. If someone rides with electric assist, but they can't go any faster than a regular bike, and their bike is quiet and emissionless, what difference does it make to people on non-electric bikes?     Date: 29 Jan 2007 08:48:44 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:32:39 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: >Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist? >Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied 'bike' >rides. Disagree. I've known some regular sag drivers that were there because physical difficulties prevented them from riding with their spouse. I'd bet better than even money that if they had an electric bike that didn't make them stand out (as a moped would), they would have been on it, riding in the group. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...       Date: 29 Jan 2007 13:01:31 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:32:39 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::: Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist? ::: Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied ::: 'bike' rides. :: :: Disagree. I've known some regular sag drivers that were there because :: physical difficulties prevented them from riding with their spouse. :: I'd bet better than even money that if they had an electric bike that :: didn't make them stand out (as a moped would), they would have been :: on it, riding in the group. Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out. I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this while not making the rider stand out significantly, then people would very likely do so.         Date: 29 Jan 2007 15:11:25 From: Diablo Scott Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Roger Zoul wrote: > Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric > bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make > them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to > push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping > along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out. > > I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this while not > making the rider stand out significantly, then people would very likely do > so. The bike in the referenced article is a recumbent - I suspect recumbent riders may be both more likely to buy such a machine, and less concerned with what other riders think about it. And I suspect if they ever do show up at centuries that the riders will be real cyclists who can no longer ride a conventional bike for such a distance due to age or health. I'd rather see someone like that on a powered bicycle than someone who hasn't first learned cycling common sense, etiquette, and traffic awareness from a real bike.           Date: 30 Jan 2007 09:57:53 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Diablo Scott wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of ::: electric bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will ::: actually make them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor ::: are we talking here to push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly ::: (around here) terrain? Zipping along at 30 mph alone would make ::: anyone stand out. ::: ::: I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this ::: while not making the rider stand out significantly, then people ::: would very likely do so. :: :: The bike in the referenced article is a recumbent - I suspect :: recumbent riders may be both more likely to buy such a machine, and :: less concerned with what other riders think about it. On BROL several folks are interested in the 'assist' feature for commuting and some for touring. Riding long hills and in heavy winds, the assist feature is indeed useful. What if you're doing the equivalent of a double century on a tour? The assist could get your butt out of a potential situation! However, using the assist feature for a typical century is another matter, IMO. To me, doing a century is about doing a century, but I guess others can have different notions (group experience, etc.) Also, the generally larger frame of a LWB 'bent would likely work better for an assist. :: :: And I suspect if they ever do show up at centuries that the riders :: will be real cyclists who can no longer ride a conventional bike for :: such a distance due to age or health. I'd rather see someone like :: that on a powered bicycle than someone who hasn't first learned :: cycling common sense, etiquette, and traffic awareness from a real :: bike. Me too. Actually, I have no problem with anyone riding anything in an ogranized century, provided it doesn't create a hazard of some type. I was just discussing this from an academic POV >         Date: 29 Jan 2007 14:07:20 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:01:31 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: >Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric >bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make >them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to >push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping >along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out. The comment was based on the original premise, and the people I was talking about would have been riding with their spouses, so make that somewhere in the 12-15 mph group. What, you only drive your car near the peg on the speedometer? Guess that makes you stand out too. Second, I don't expect that the bike will actually exist soon. If the technology comes about to run some of the electric cars at the auto shows, the bike may show up a few years later. So it would be about 2015 or so, and not my immediate concern. The various transportation designs that have small motors at the individual wheels would IMO yield a perfect base for such a bike motor, but it isn't feasible yet for the ket. (My understanding that there is a Japanese car that is functional with small, powerful electric motors at each wheel, but which are prohibitively expensive). Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...           Date: 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:01:31 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::: Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of ::: electric bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will ::: actually make them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor ::: are we talking here to push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly ::: (around here) terrain? Zipping along at 30 mph alone would make ::: anyone stand out. :: :: The comment was based on the original premise, and the people I was :: talking about would have been riding with their spouses, so make that :: somewhere in the 12-15 mph group. What, you only drive your car near :: the peg on the speedometer? Guess that makes you stand out too. Not in my car....but on a bike if I could get near 30 mph I would, because it's fun. I'd certainly be a standout. :: :: Second, I don't expect that the bike will actually exist soon. If the :: technology comes about to run some of the electric cars at the auto :: shows, the bike may show up a few years later. So it would be about :: 2015 or so, and not my immediate concern. The various transportation :: designs that have small motors at the individual wheels would IMO :: yield a perfect base for such a bike motor, but it isn't feasible yet :: for the ket. (My understanding that there is a Japanese car that :: is functional with small, powerful electric motors at each wheel, but :: which are prohibitively expensive). This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the mopeds! It won't happen for at least 20 years, if then, I'd say. Small for a car can be huge on a bike.             Date: 29 Jan 2007 15:14:56 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: >This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the >mopeds! Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor, so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...). Get back to me in 2015 and we'll see who owes who the beer. 30 mph and under that can be carried up a flight of stairs and you buy; failing either of the above and I will. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...               Date: 29 Jan 2007 17:53:33 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: :: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote: :: ::: This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on ::: the mopeds! :: :: Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size :: of the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its :: going to depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a :: 'powerful' motor, so it looks almost as if one stole from the :: other...). Get back to me in 2015 and we'll see who owes who the :: beer. 30 mph and under that can be carried up a flight of stairs and :: you buy; failing either of the above and I will. Deal! :) I think the distintion, according to on-line dictionaries, is ill-defined, IMO. However, if you ask most people, and because we have mopeds, the main difference is that you pedal a bike. Riding a bicycle is strongly associated with exercising, not so much so with any motorized two-wheel vehicle.               Date: 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 From: Kristian M Zoerhoff Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On 2007-01-29, Curtis L Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul" ><rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the >>mopeds! > > Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of > the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to > depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor, > so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...). The dictionaries might, but state laws are where this will get interesting (at least, for us in the USA). For example, IL considers anything with a motor to be a moped: (625 ILCS 5/1106) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1106) Sec. 1106. Bicycle. Every device propelled by human power upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels except scooters and similar devices. (Source: P.A. 85951.) (625 ILCS 5/1148.2) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1148.2) Sec. 1148.2. Motorized Pedalcycle. A motorized pedalcycle is a motordriven cycle whose speed attainable in one mile is 30 mph or less, which is equipped with a motor that produces 2 brake horsepower or less. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement shall not exceed 50 cubic centimeter displacement and the power drive system shall not require the operator to shift gears. (Source: P.A. 83820.) IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has interesting implications for manufacturers of such. -- __o Kristian Zoerhoff _'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com (_)/ (_)                 Date: 30 Jan 2007 03:38:27 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote: > On 2007-01-29, Curtis L Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote: >> On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul" >> <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the >>> mopeds! >> Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of >> the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to >> depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor, >> so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...). > > The dictionaries might, but state laws are where this will get interesting > (at least, for us in the USA). For example, IL considers anything with a > motor to be a moped: > > (625 ILCS 5/1106) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1106) > Sec. 1106. Bicycle. Every device propelled by human power upon which > any person may ride, having two tandem wheels except > scooters and similar devices. > (Source: P.A. 85951.) > > (625 ILCS 5/1148.2) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1148.2) > Sec. 1148.2. Motorized Pedalcycle. A motorized pedalcycle is a > motordriven cycle whose speed attainable in one mile is > 30 mph or less, which is equipped with a motor that produces > 2 brake horsepower or less. If an internal combustion engine > is used, the displacement shall not exceed 50 cubic > centimeter displacement and the power drive system shall not > require the operator to shift gears. > (Source: P.A. 83820.) > > IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has > interesting implications for manufacturers of such. > Illinois laws tend to be weird. I was born there and moved to California, and the laws are like 2 different countries. Also above they forgot to mention the little old ladies pedal powered tricycle with the grocery basket in the back. Those used to be fairly common back in the 50's and 60's when I lived there. Women in their 80's could use them with no problems with balance, nor stamina for short grocery runs. This type of bike is not mentioned at all in the above quotes. California also has the 50cc law so that may be a national standard, or not? Bill Baka                 Date: 29 Jan 2007 16:02:00 From: Curtis L. Russell Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com > wrote: >IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has >interesting implications for manufacturers of such. It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted: Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use paths). I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real life. Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal. The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...                   Date: 30 Jan 2007 03:41:00 From: Bill Baka Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Curtis L. Russell wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff > <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote: > >> IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has >> interesting implications for manufacturers of such. > > It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will > vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of > the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It > really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is > where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered > vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted: > Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and > electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use > paths). > > I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on > electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real > life. Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I > saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal. What do you mean "Were?"? I have almost been in 2 crashes due to these idiot kids in my neighborhood in California. The police just ignore them, maybe waiting for them to pull a Darwin. I just don't want to be the one they do it with. Bill Baka > > The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as > silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius > working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking > lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP. > > Curtis L. Russell > Odenton, MD (USA) > Just someone on two wheels...                   Date: 29 Jan 2007 21:55:15 From: Kristian M Zoerhoff Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.] On 2007-01-29, Curtis L Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff ><kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote: > >>IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has >>interesting implications for manufacturers of such. > > It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will > vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of > the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It > really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is > where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered > vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted: > Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and > electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use > paths). Actually, all of the above are covered in IL, much to my surpirse. Segways are considered scooters, and restricted to sidewalks. Golf Carts are banned, unless specifically allowed by a municipality within its limits. Handicapped carts are specifically allowed on sidewalks, but limited to 8 mph top speed. MUPs are considered sidewalks for this purpose. > I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on > electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real > life. Well, technically, there aren't many now; they're mopeds, and mopeds are allowed on public roads. Mopeds do require a driver's license, though (IL has a special class L license for folks who can't/won't get a standard DL). > Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I > saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal. You don't live around Chicago. Cook County banned them outright, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over them from TPTB. They had a pretty short half-life. > The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as > silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius > working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking > lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP. That's a problem [1], and it does uncover one restriction on electric bikes under current state law here: "motorized" vehicles are banned from the major MUPs in this area. However, given their stealth nature, most elctric cyclists could probably get by, as long as they don't go tearing along at 20 mph. [1] One can say the same for a bicycle, of course. That's why I have a bell on mine. -- __o Kristian Zoerhoff _'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com (_)/ (_)   Date: 28 Jan 2007 19:46:51 From: sally Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote in news:E%6vh.14142$ji1.920@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net: > What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for > that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's > been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an > issue... If a century ride uses public roads and normal traffic laws, there's not much you can do to stop him.     Date: 28 Jan 2007 19:56:12 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries >> What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for >> that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's >> been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an >> issue... > > If a century ride uses public roads and normal traffic laws, there's not > much > you can do to stop him. Obviously you can't stop the person from using the roads. I'm wondering how you treat such a person when they're signing up for it. Or at that point you probably don't know, so I guess it's just how things go with other riders on the road and at the rest stops. I'm sure there'd be a certain number of riders who would love to have them along to draft behind, similar to tandems. Hmm. So you've got someone out to try for a record "individual" time on, say, a double century. We've never really given much thought to the idea that it should be 100% unaided; it's assumed that people are going to draft behind tandems. And it's also assumed that someone hiring a motorbike or car to draft behind wouldn't exactly be legit. But what about an electric bike? --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com       Date: 28 Jan 2007 21:34:25 From: Subject: Re: electric bikes on centuries Mike Jacoubowsky writes: >>> What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, >>> for that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So >>> far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no >>> longer an issue... >> If a century ride uses public roads and normal traffic laws, >> there's not much you can do to stop him. > Obviously you can't stop the person from using the roads. I'm > wondering how you treat such a person when they're signing up for > it. Or at that point you probably don't know, so I guess it's just > how things go with other riders on the road and at the rest stops. > I'm sure there'd be a certain number of riders who would love to > have them along to draft behind, similar to tandems. Just say the ride is not for motorcycles and this device has a motor. Besides, it would probably be better to allow the entry because the first hill would kill and if not that then next would do it. > Hmm. So you've got someone out to try for a record "individual" > time on, say, a double century. We've never really given much > thought to the idea that it should be 100% unaided; it's assumed > that people are going to draft behind tandems. And it's also > assumed that someone hiring a motorbike or car to draft behind > wouldn't exactly be legit. But what about an electric bike? You need to believe that your assessment of electric bicycles is correct. I know that electric car people who talk of 250 mile operating range don't consider driving to Tahoe such a good idea (mountains). Jobst Brandt