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Main
Date: 30 Oct 2007 09:12:12
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: what to do about dud wheel?
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At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
to decide how to deal with it.
This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
don't have the right skills.
The options I'm considering are:
* Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
fourth time.
* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
some kind of more permanent fix.
* Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.
Any advice?
--
"To the engineer, the world is a toy box full of sub-optimized and
feature-poor toys."
--Scott Adams
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Date: 07 Nov 2007 04:54:04
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Performance's response
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On Nov 6, 3:06 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 6, 1:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 12:31 pm, DennisTheBald <DennisTheB...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 5, 3:11 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > ... He says it could take a couple of weeks.
>
> > > Ask if he has a loaner you can ride back and forth to work in the mean
> > > time
>
> > I'd amend that to "politely but firmly insist on a loaner". This bike
> > was sold to the OP as a commuter, i.e., a working vehicle, not just a
> > two-wheeled toy. If a car dealer kept an in-warranty car for "a couple
> > of weeks" awaiting parts, a loaner would be SOP.
>
> I'd ask for a BJ
I had the impression that the store manager was a guy.......but
whatever floats yer boat! ;-)
>, a foot rub
See above....
> and a Bavarian ham sandwich
Hope they are better at sandwiches than they are at bike mechanics.
>--because you
> always have to reach for the stars!
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Date: 06 Nov 2007 13:06:50
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Performance's response
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On Nov 6, 1:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Nov 6, 12:31 pm, DennisTheBald <DennisTheB...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 5, 3:11 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > ... He says it could take a couple of weeks.
>
> > Ask if he has a loaner you can ride back and forth to work in the mean
> > time
>
> I'd amend that to "politely but firmly insist on a loaner". This bike
> was sold to the OP as a commuter, i.e., a working vehicle, not just a
> two-wheeled toy. If a car dealer kept an in-warranty car for "a couple
> of weeks" awaiting parts, a loaner would be SOP.
I'd ask for a BJ, a foot rub, and a Bavarian ham sandwich--because you
always have to reach for the stars!
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Date: 07 Nov 2007 04:09:13
From: Mike Kruger
Subject: Re: Performance's response
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landotter wrote:
> On Nov 6, 1:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 12:31 pm, DennisTheBald <DennisTheB...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 3:11 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>> ... He says it could take a couple of weeks.
>>
>>> Ask if he has a loaner you can ride back and forth to work in the
>>> mean time
>>
>> I'd amend that to "politely but firmly insist on a loaner". This bike
>> was sold to the OP as a commuter, i.e., a working vehicle, not just a
>> two-wheeled toy. If a car dealer kept an in-warranty car for "a
>> couple of weeks" awaiting parts, a loaner would be SOP.
>
> I'd ask for a BJ, a foot rub, and a Bavarian ham sandwich--because you
> always have to reach for the stars!
Here's a start on the first two:
http://tinyurl.com/26uhgz
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Date: 06 Nov 2007 03:33:44
From:
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
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On Oct 31, 3:10 am, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> >> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> >> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> >> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> >> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> >> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> >> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> >> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> > Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
> > wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
> > it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
> > prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
> > should be good till the rims wear out.
>
> How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
> the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
> thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
> some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?
> --
> Ben Pfaffhttp://benpfaff.org
It sounds like the shop sold you something not fit for purpose. Where
I come from, that's against consumer laws. Talk loudly at the counter
and request firmly and politely that they rebuild it to do the job it
was sold for.
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Date: 05 Nov 2007 15:26:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
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On Nov 5, 3:28 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 3, 6:00 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 4:13 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
>
> > > it's a fred bike because it has a chain guard.
>
> > Riiiiight. Wannabes get dirty legs on the way to the office. How could
> > I forget??
>
> Remember--fenders and reflectors also make you a sissy!
What? No low spoke count wheels? No plastic fork? FRED!!!!!!
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Date: 05 Nov 2007 13:28:17
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
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On Nov 3, 6:00 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Nov 3, 4:13 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
>
> > it's a fred bike because it has a chain guard.
>
> Riiiiight. Wannabes get dirty legs on the way to the office. How could
> I forget??
Remember--fenders and reflectors also make you a sissy!
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Date: 04 Nov 2007 10:48:46
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Performance's response (was: Re: what to do about dud wheel?)
|
Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu > writes:
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
Based on everyone's suggestion on where to start, I took the bike
to Performance today to have it looked at. I explained the
situation briefly to the employee in attendance (who does not
seem to be a mechanic). His response was that I must be riding
in poor conditions that were too harsh for the wheel. I said
that I was riding pretty much on El Camino and other paved
streets and asked what was so harsh about that, and he told me
that, since spokes were breaking, it was by definition too hard
on the wheel. "Spokes don't break on their own," according to
him, and it seems that Performance always builds wheels
properly.
Anyhow, I left it for repair, and the mechanic is supposed to
call me before doing anything to the wheel. I have a thin shred
of hope that the mechanic will be more sensible than this
employee.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 05 Nov 2007 13:11:20
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: Performance's response
|
Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu > writes:
> Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:
>
>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>> to decide how to deal with it.
>>
>> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
>> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
>> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
>> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
>> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
>> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> Based on everyone's suggestion on where to start, I took the bike
> to Performance today to have it looked at. I explained the
> situation briefly to the employee in attendance (who does not
> seem to be a mechanic). His response was that I must be riding
> in poor conditions that were too harsh for the wheel. I said
> that I was riding pretty much on El Camino and other paved
> streets and asked what was so harsh about that, and he told me
> that, since spokes were breaking, it was by definition too hard
> on the wheel. "Spokes don't break on their own," according to
> him, and it seems that Performance always builds wheels
> properly.
The mechanic called me today and tried to sell me a new set of
spokes at $32. Instead I called the manager ("Chris") back and
explained to him the situation. He was firmly *not* willing to
fix the wheel properly on their dime, but he did say that he
would call the manufacturer and get them to replace the wheel. I
have little hope that this will actually fix the problem, but it
is something. He says it could take a couple of weeks.
Unbelievable.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 04 Nov 2007 18:32:40
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Performance's response
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> Based on everyone's suggestion on where to start, I took the bike
> to Performance today to have it looked at. I explained the
> situation briefly to the employee in attendance (who does not
> seem to be a mechanic). His response was that I must be riding
> in poor conditions that were too harsh for the wheel. I said
> that I was riding pretty much on El Camino and other paved
> streets and asked what was so harsh about that, and he told me
> that, since spokes were breaking, it was by definition too hard
> on the wheel. "Spokes don't break on their own," according to
> him, and it seems that Performance always builds wheels
> properly.
Absolute horseshit. Some Performance shops are better than others, but
this one is a waste of your time.
--
David L. Johnson
If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
conclusion.
-- George Bernard Shaw
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Date: 04 Nov 2007 16:56:50
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Performance's response
|
David L. Johnson wrote:
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>
>> Based on everyone's suggestion on where to start, I took the bike
>> to Performance today to have it looked at. I explained the
>> situation briefly to the employee in attendance (who does not
>> seem to be a mechanic). His response was that I must be riding
>> in poor conditions that were too harsh for the wheel. I said
>> that I was riding pretty much on El Camino and other paved
>> streets and asked what was so harsh about that, and he told me
>> that, since spokes were breaking, it was by definition too hard
>> on the wheel. "Spokes don't break on their own," according to
>> him, and it seems that Performance always builds wheels
>> properly.
>
> Absolute horseshit. Some Performance shops are better than others,
> but this one is a waste of your time.
Yup. Talk to the manager! (Next stop: corporate.)
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Date: 04 Nov 2007 12:12:25
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Performance's response (was: Re: what to do about dud wheel?)
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:
>
>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>> to decide how to deal with it.
>>
>> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
>> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
>> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
>> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
>> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
>> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> Based on everyone's suggestion on where to start, I took the bike
> to Performance today to have it looked at. I explained the
> situation briefly to the employee in attendance (who does not
> seem to be a mechanic). His response was that I must be riding
> in poor conditions that were too harsh for the wheel. I said
> that I was riding pretty much on El Camino and other paved
> streets and asked what was so harsh about that, and he told me
> that, since spokes were breaking, it was by definition too hard
> on the wheel. "Spokes don't break on their own," according to
> him, and it seems that Performance always builds wheels
> properly.
>
> Anyhow, I left it for repair, and the mechanic is supposed to
> call me before doing anything to the wheel. I have a thin shred
> of hope that the mechanic will be more sensible than this
> employee.
No offense, but you really should insist on talking to the manager and
demand a new wheel. At the very least, they should rebuild this one from
scratch and not charge you a penny.
Mountain bike wheels hold up to tons of abuse without breaking spokes; no
reason a commuter bike component should ever fail from "conditions".
BS (don't put up with it)
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 05:00:13
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
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On Nov 3, 4:13 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
wrote:
> On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
>
> it's a fred bike because it has a chain guard.
Riiiiight. Wannabes get dirty legs on the way to the office. How could
I forget??
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 10:00:19
From: bookieb
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 3:24 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 3:47 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
>
> > > Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
<snip >
> But the problem is wrenches that know what they're doing. Last night I
> stopped by the community center where a bunch of us perpetual
> teenagers play bike-polo (I prefer drinking beer and watching, in lieu
> of damaging my bits) and saw that J-, a locally famous cxracer, had
> built up yet another Cross-Czech for a NC tour. I checked out his rear
> wheel, admiring the wide Sun rim, and absentmindedly squeezed some
> spokes. Half of the non-drive side weren't even under any palpable
> tension. The spoke heads weren't even seated. I asked, "Who built this
> wheel?" and he replied that X down at some tony shop had built it, and
> to "stop by for a retensioning once I broke it in." Jeez--and it's
> not the first example I've come across of "professionally built"
> wheels being even lousier than machine built.
I hear ya.
Lots of "wheel builders" seem to think that because the rim is
straight, all the spokes are crossing the same way, and the dish is
there-or-thereabouts right, it's a good wheel.
If you find someone good to build your wheels, hang on to them!
regards,
bookieb.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 18:50:20
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 7:37 pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:02:19 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >On Oct 31, 3:47 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
> >wrote:
> >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
> >> Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> >> > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> >> > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.
>
> >> ya buy a fred bike,
>
> >Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
>
> Just a guess, but maybe it has something to do with breaking a spoke a
> month?
Circular logic??
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 05:33:40
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Ozark Bicycle" wrote: Circular logic??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, this is about wheels, isn't it?
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 13:18:08
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 2:52 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "Chain Reaction Bicycles" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> writes:
>
> >> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> >> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> >> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> >> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> >> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> >> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> >> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> >> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> > I forgot to ask how tall you are, what you weigh and how the bike is being
> > used. If you're one of the, er, "sturdier" crowd, and put a lot of commute
> > miles on a bike, the stock wheels & tires may not be appropriate.
>
> I'm 6'3", weigh 185 pounds, and commute 12 miles round-trip
> between Redwood City and Palo Alto weekdays, mostly along El
> Camino and roads that are similarly flat and unchallenging. I
> carry one pannier most days, usually filled with under 5 pounds
> of stuff.
>
> > Hubs: Joy Tech Road, Alloy QR; Rims: Alex R500 Semi-Aero Pin Joint, Double
> > Wall, 28H front/32H rear.
> > Tires: Kenda K West, 700 x 28c
>
> > Those rims are pretty narrow for commute use;www.alexrims.comrecommends
> > them as "Very populare for road racing bikes." (an interesting spelling for
> > "popular"). And 28c tires aren't helping matters either.
>
> Well, I'm taking recommendations, I guess. What would you
> recommend in a rear wheel for my requirements? If I eventually
> conclude that the current wheel is simply unsuitable for me (as
> you're hinting) then I'll be in the market for a new one.
>
> > Plus, for a commute bike, it's *very* odd to see 28 spokes for
> > a conventional front wheel (not aero-style rim, which, because
> > they're stronger, can get by with fewer spokes).
>
> The front wheel hasn't been a problem, even though it's radially
> spoked. Just the rear wheel.
That might be a narrow rim, but it's a triple box sucker, and darn
sturdy. It's not unusual at all to see on flat bar bikes these days,
and as "commute" bikes often imitate trends, thus the 32/28 and the
narrower R500 rims. Nothing wrong with such spec and 28mm tires are a
fine width for your weight, as long as you're not putting 50# of extra
gear on the bike. FWIW, I think at least three of the flat bar bikes
at the LBS have similar wheels/rims, albeit with conventional 3X
front--not that the front is a problem. I still contend that ya just
got a spoke problem. Sounds like they'll take care of you.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 18:49:58
From: Chain Reaction Bicycles
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
I forgot to ask how tall you are, what you weigh and how the bike is being
used. If you're one of the, er, "sturdier" crowd, and put a lot of commute
miles on a bike, the stock wheels & tires may not be appropriate.
Hubs: Joy Tech Road, Alloy QR; Rims: Alex R500 Semi-Aero Pin Joint, Double
Wall, 28H front/32H rear.
Tires: Kenda K West, 700 x 28c
Those rims are pretty narrow for commute use; www.alexrims.com recommends
them as "Very populare for road racing bikes." (an interesting spelling for
"popular"). And 28c tires aren't helping matters either. Plus, for a commute
bike, it's *very* odd to see 28 spokes for a conventional front wheel (not
aero-style rim, which, because they're stronger, can get by with fewer
spokes). It's kinda looking like this bike was built with leftover wheels
from a road model. If the spacing on the rear hub is 130mm, that would
pretty much guarantee that.
In the meantime, I've spoken with Charlie at Performance down the street,
and he's not aware of any specific problems with those bikes. He said that
did have one bigger guy who was killing spokes, but thought they'd already
switched the wheel out for him. He said they wouldn't have a problem getting
a replacement wheel from Schwinn.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87ejfcy42r.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
> don't have the right skills.
>
> The options I'm considering are:
>
> * Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
> fourth time.
>
> * Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
> about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
> some kind of more permanent fix.
>
> * Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
>
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.
>
> Any advice?
> --
> "To the engineer, the world is a toy box full of sub-optimized and
> feature-poor toys."
> --Scott Adams
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 12:52:29
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > writes:
>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> I forgot to ask how tall you are, what you weigh and how the bike is being
> used. If you're one of the, er, "sturdier" crowd, and put a lot of commute
> miles on a bike, the stock wheels & tires may not be appropriate.
I'm 6'3", weigh 185 pounds, and commute 12 miles round-trip
between Redwood City and Palo Alto weekdays, mostly along El
Camino and roads that are similarly flat and unchallenging. I
carry one pannier most days, usually filled with under 5 pounds
of stuff.
> Hubs: Joy Tech Road, Alloy QR; Rims: Alex R500 Semi-Aero Pin Joint, Double
> Wall, 28H front/32H rear.
> Tires: Kenda K West, 700 x 28c
>
> Those rims are pretty narrow for commute use; www.alexrims.com recommends
> them as "Very populare for road racing bikes." (an interesting spelling for
> "popular"). And 28c tires aren't helping matters either.
Well, I'm taking recommendations, I guess. What would you
recommend in a rear wheel for my requirements? If I eventually
conclude that the current wheel is simply unsuitable for me (as
you're hinting) then I'll be in the market for a new one.
> Plus, for a commute bike, it's *very* odd to see 28 spokes for
> a conventional front wheel (not aero-style rim, which, because
> they're stronger, can get by with fewer spokes).
The front wheel hasn't been a problem, even though it's radially
spoked. Just the rear wheel.
> In the meantime, I've spoken with Charlie at Performance down the street,
> and he's not aware of any specific problems with those bikes. He said that
> did have one bigger guy who was killing spokes, but thought they'd already
> switched the wheel out for him. He said they wouldn't have a problem getting
> a replacement wheel from Schwinn.
Wow! I can't believe you're being so helpful to someone who has
never bought anything bigger than a chain at your store. You
must just be a really nice guy.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 13:31:02
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87k5p3ukn6.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> "Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> writes:
>
>>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>>> to decide how to deal with it.
>>
>> I forgot to ask how tall you are, what you weigh and how the bike is
>> being
>> used. If you're one of the, er, "sturdier" crowd, and put a lot of
>> commute
>> miles on a bike, the stock wheels & tires may not be appropriate.
>
> I'm 6'3", weigh 185 pounds, and commute 12 miles round-trip
> between Redwood City and Palo Alto weekdays, mostly along El
> Camino and roads that are similarly flat and unchallenging. I
> carry one pannier most days, usually filled with under 5 pounds
> of stuff.
Doesn't sound like your weight should be an issue for those wheels, but you
still might consider bumping up in tire width to a 32c, if the rim's wide
enough for it (I can't tell from the www.alexrims.com website as they don't
show the profile for that rim, and I don't have any bikes on the floor right
now with it). But it does sound more like a spoke problem than inappropriate
rim (if you weighed 220lbs, it would be different).
>> Hubs: Joy Tech Road, Alloy QR; Rims: Alex R500 Semi-Aero Pin Joint,
>> Double
>> Wall, 28H front/32H rear.
>> Tires: Kenda K West, 700 x 28c
>>
>> Those rims are pretty narrow for commute use; www.alexrims.com recommends
>> them as "Very populare for road racing bikes." (an interesting spelling
>> for
>> "popular"). And 28c tires aren't helping matters either.
>
> Well, I'm taking recommendations, I guess. What would you
> recommend in a rear wheel for my requirements? If I eventually
> conclude that the current wheel is simply unsuitable for me (as
> you're hinting) then I'll be in the market for a new one.
>
>> Plus, for a commute bike, it's *very* odd to see 28 spokes for
>> a conventional front wheel (not aero-style rim, which, because
>> they're stronger, can get by with fewer spokes).
>
> The front wheel hasn't been a problem, even though it's radially
> spoked. Just the rear wheel.
Front wheels usually aren't much trouble; I pointed out the 28 spokes
because it's a bit odd, for a commute-oriented bike, to bother with fewer
spokes in the front than the rear. It's just a matter of who they're
marketing to. More clues to the puzzle, that's all.
>> In the meantime, I've spoken with Charlie at Performance down the street,
>> and he's not aware of any specific problems with those bikes. He said
>> that
>> did have one bigger guy who was killing spokes, but thought they'd
>> already
>> switched the wheel out for him. He said they wouldn't have a problem
>> getting
>> a replacement wheel from Schwinn.
>
> Wow! I can't believe you're being so helpful to someone who has
> never bought anything bigger than a chain at your store. You
> must just be a really nice guy.
The theory is that cycling is an infectious activity. If more people ride,
even more will want to. And thus if I can do something to make cycling
better overall, it benefits my business in the long run. That's why I go to
the Sacramento & Washington DC Bike Summits. No way can you justify the
expense in the short term, but in the long term, if cycling becomes too much
of a hassle, I don't have a busines 10 years down the road.
And I suppose some of it is guilt. During the busier times of the year, our
service department gets so backed up we have to turn away a lot of business
(on bikes we didn't sell) or else we'd have a two-month backlog. I hate
turning people away, so I try to help in other areas where I can.
> Ben Pfaff
> http://benpfaff.org
--
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87k5p3ukn6.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> "Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> writes:
>
>>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>>> to decide how to deal with it.
>>
>> I forgot to ask how tall you are, what you weigh and how the bike is
>> being
>> used. If you're one of the, er, "sturdier" crowd, and put a lot of
>> commute
>> miles on a bike, the stock wheels & tires may not be appropriate.
>
> I'm 6'3", weigh 185 pounds, and commute 12 miles round-trip
> between Redwood City and Palo Alto weekdays, mostly along El
> Camino and roads that are similarly flat and unchallenging. I
> carry one pannier most days, usually filled with under 5 pounds
> of stuff.
>
>> Hubs: Joy Tech Road, Alloy QR; Rims: Alex R500 Semi-Aero Pin Joint,
>> Double
>> Wall, 28H front/32H rear.
>> Tires: Kenda K West, 700 x 28c
>>
>> Those rims are pretty narrow for commute use; www.alexrims.com recommends
>> them as "Very populare for road racing bikes." (an interesting spelling
>> for
>> "popular"). And 28c tires aren't helping matters either.
>
> Well, I'm taking recommendations, I guess. What would you
> recommend in a rear wheel for my requirements? If I eventually
> conclude that the current wheel is simply unsuitable for me (as
> you're hinting) then I'll be in the market for a new one.
>
>> Plus, for a commute bike, it's *very* odd to see 28 spokes for
>> a conventional front wheel (not aero-style rim, which, because
>> they're stronger, can get by with fewer spokes).
>
> The front wheel hasn't been a problem, even though it's radially
> spoked. Just the rear wheel.
>
>> In the meantime, I've spoken with Charlie at Performance down the street,
>> and he's not aware of any specific problems with those bikes. He said
>> that
>> did have one bigger guy who was killing spokes, but thought they'd
>> already
>> switched the wheel out for him. He said they wouldn't have a problem
>> getting
>> a replacement wheel from Schwinn.
>
> Wow! I can't believe you're being so helpful to someone who has
> never bought anything bigger than a chain at your store. You
> must just be a really nice guy.
> --
> Ben Pfaff
> http://benpfaff.org
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 17:14:13
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
All the pre-stressing and proper tensioning in the world may not have an
affect on the wheels that came on your bike. Schwinn, like a number of other
manufacturers, got stung by a supply of truly wretched spokes a couple years
ago. I assume this was not a current model? Wheels built with those spokes
were a disaster; some would even break in the middle, which is almost
unheard of without help (something getting stuck in the wheel).
One of the problems with Performance is that they have no "corporate
memory." Nobody seems to have a clue that a given problem is rampant and
needs to be dealt with. It's perpetually "That's the first I've heard of
that" in an almost-honest fashion, even though they've dealt with many. So
they never get to the bottom of the problem, which they haven't in this
case, because they can keep replacing spokes until every single one is new
before the problem goes away... and long before that time, either the
customer goes away or the shop gets thinking that it's obviously the
customer's fault because the same thing keeps happening over and over and
over.
Bring the wheel back to Performance, and see if they can set you up with a
new wheel that's similar, but *not* taken off another of the same model. And
consider that there may in fact have been a reason Schwinn offered those
bikes up so cheaply to dealers. Other manufacturers brought in HUGE numbers
of replacement wheels (which is relevant only if, in fact, we're talking
about the same problem, which is appears we are; I remember reading that
Schwinn had many models involved... it was only through dumb luck that our
lines escaped unscathed, but *no* bike company that I know of tests spokes
from each batch; they assume they're OK). Schwinn primarily deals with
discount stores these days; very few IBDs will carry the line anymore, as
they've become known for building a bike that's a superior department-store
machine but many steps below what most shops will tolerate. Better bike
shops assume their customers are actually going to put miles on their bikes,
and look forward to taking care of the odd issue that comes up now & then.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87ejfcy42r.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
> don't have the right skills.
>
> The options I'm considering are:
>
> * Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
> fourth time.
>
> * Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
> about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
> some kind of more permanent fix.
>
> * Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
>
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.
>
> Any advice?
> --
> "To the engineer, the world is a toy box full of sub-optimized and
> feature-poor toys."
> --Scott Adams
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 08:24:34
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 3:47 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
>
> > Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> > > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> > > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.
>
> > ya buy a fred bike,
>
> Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
Beats me as well. ~$500 is a good price point for a utility/normal
bike. If in NYC, I'd say spend even less and get the ugliest beast
possible.
>
> > ya get fred wheels, built by a machine.
>
> And when ya get machine built wheels on a ~$800 'road bike' does that
> mean ya got a "fred bike"?
The carbon wishbone counteracts all that!
Truth of the matter is that if the person building it up from the box
labeled "Made in China" knows what they're doing, even a basic $300
Schwinn or Jamis city scoot will be very reliable--far better than
when the bike factories were in France and Italy, when you consider
the price point.
But the problem is wrenches that know what they're doing. Last night I
stopped by the community center where a bunch of us perpetual
teenagers play bike-polo (I prefer drinking beer and watching, in lieu
of damaging my bits) and saw that J-, a locally famous cxracer, had
built up yet another Cross-Czech for a NC tour. I checked out his rear
wheel, admiring the wide Sun rim, and absentmindedly squeezed some
spokes. Half of the non-drive side weren't even under any palpable
tension. The spoke heads weren't even seated. I asked, "Who built this
wheel?" and he replied that X down at some tony shop had built it, and
to "stop by for a retensioning once I broke it in." Jeez--and it's
not the first example I've come across of "professionally built"
wheels being even lousier than machine built.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 02:13:09
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 10:02 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
it's a fred bike because it has a chain guard.
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 08:02:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 3:47 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
>
> Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.
>
> ya buy a fred bike,
Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
> ya get fred wheels, built by a machine.
And when ya get machine built wheels on a ~$800 'road bike' does that
mean ya got a "fred bike"?
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 20:37:46
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:02:19 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Oct 31, 3:47 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
>> Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
>> > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
>> > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.
>>
>> ya buy a fred bike,
>
>Why is a sanely priced commuter bike a "fred bike"?
Just a guess, but maybe it has something to do with breaking a spoke a
month?
Email address works as is.
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 13:27:34
From: jbollyn@gmail.com
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 31, 8:04 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 7:42 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >news:87ve8oup5a.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
>
> > > "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > >> You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price,
> > >> but
> > >> as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
> > >> repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...
>
> > > If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
> > > consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
> > > commuting at the better bike shops at any price.
>
> > > If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
> > > half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
> > > fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
> > > isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
> > > :-)
> > > --
> > > Ben Pfaff
> > >http://benpfaff.org
>
> > I believe, there are two factors which tend to be lost (or minimized) in
> > arguments like yours;
>
> > your time spent, and
>
> > your aggravation.
>
> > But it seems like the euphoria at (seemingly) having saved a few bucks
> > overweights everything else.
>
> > I don't have that gene.
>
> > J.
>
> So Ben should have spent $1K at the other shop on a road bike that was
> completely unsuited to his purpose--a bike just as likely to come with
> badly built R500 rims?
>
> Damn, you're the kind of fucking moron that keeps the shops open!
> Thanks!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 06:19:28
From: Art Harris
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
Either poor quality spokes, or poor build, or both.
Are the spokes stainless (shiny) of galvanized (dull)?
If you pluck the spokes, all on a given side should produce nearly the
same pitch. If not, there's a problem (damaged rim or poor build).
After breaking four spokes, you should insist on either replacing all
the spokes with good quality stainless spokes (like DT), or getting a
new wheel. In either case, make sure the that the spokes are properly
tightened, and stress relieved.
Art Harris
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 07:08:01
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Art Harris <n2ah@hotmail.com > writes:
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> Either poor quality spokes, or poor build, or both.
>
> Are the spokes stainless (shiny) of galvanized (dull)?
Mostly, they're painted black. The replacements are stainless.
> After breaking four spokes, you should insist on either replacing all
> the spokes with good quality stainless spokes (like DT), or getting a
> new wheel. In either case, make sure the that the spokes are properly
> tightened, and stress relieved.
Thanks for the advice.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 06:04:03
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 30, 7:42 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com > wrote:
> "Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:87ve8oup5a.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
>
>
>
> > "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price,
> >> but
> >> as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
> >> repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...
>
> > If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
> > consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
> > commuting at the better bike shops at any price.
>
> > If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
> > half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
> > fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
> > isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
> > :-)
> > --
> > Ben Pfaff
> >http://benpfaff.org
>
> I believe, there are two factors which tend to be lost (or minimized) in
> arguments like yours;
>
> your time spent, and
>
> your aggravation.
>
> But it seems like the euphoria at (seemingly) having saved a few bucks
> overweights everything else.
>
> I don't have that gene.
>
> J.
So Ben should have spent $1K at the other shop on a road bike that was
completely unsuited to his purpose--a bike just as likely to come with
badly built R500 rims?
Damn, you're the kind of fucking moron that keeps the shops open!
Thanks!
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 23:57:43
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 30, 6:32 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com > wrote:
> "Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:874pg8w8hh.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
>
>
>
> > "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> writes:
>
> >> Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >>> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> >>> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> >>> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> >>> permanent fix.
>
> >> Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
> >> first place? But, never mind.
>
> > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
> > bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
> > track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
> > other than the dud wheel.
>
> > Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
> > shops and order a new wheel.
> > --
> > Ben Pfaff
> >http://benpfaff.org
>
> I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.
Absolute bullshit! A good shop would have stress relieved and dialed
in the wheel after the first spoke broke, as "they've got an actual
rider." Strong rim, FWIW, one that you see on much more expensive
bikes.
Now run along, and throw some money at your problems.
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 19:17:01
From: Jay
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"landotter" <landotter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193788663.424576.138250@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 30, 6:32 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> news:874pg8w8hh.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> writes:
>>
>> >> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> >>> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
>> >>> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
>> >>> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
>> >>> permanent fix.
>>
>> >> Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
>> >> first place? But, never mind.
>>
>> > I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
>> > bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
>> > Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
>> > bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
>> > track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
>> > other than the dud wheel.
>>
>> > Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
>> > shops and order a new wheel.
>> > --
>> > Ben Pfaff
>> >http://benpfaff.org
>>
>> I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.
>
>
> Absolute bullshit! A good shop would have stress relieved and dialed
> in the wheel after the first spoke broke, as "they've got an actual
> rider." Strong rim, FWIW, one that you see on much more expensive
> bikes.
>
> Now run along, and throw some money at your problems.
>
Have you actually been inside a Performance Bike retail store recently?
Ben's problem is not going to be solved by a forth trip to the shop.
Performance Bike retail stores should not be confused with 'good shops',
when it comes to repairs which require thought, and wheel building
experience.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 23:31:42
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
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On Oct 30, 5:19 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> writes:
>
> > Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> >> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> >> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> >> permanent fix.
>
> > Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
> > first place? But, never mind.
>
> I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
> bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
> track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
> other than the dud wheel.
For utility use, that Schwinn is great. I paid a similar amount for my
low spec Kona, and am pleased at how great it rides, and how little
attention it attracts. Of course, being wrench handy, I tore it down
and built it back up after purchase. Assembly makes all the difference
in the world.
I'm glad that my LBS has the *audacity* to stock a few $3-400 bikes,
and set them up well, because as David mentioned, treating even
moderate spenders well, gets returned several-fold in word of mouth
advertising. My LBS got "shop of the year" from the local indy paper
before being open even a year.
We got plenty of those "it's for selling!" shops on the other side of
the river, which stock $800+ bikes that will hang proudly in garages.
Power to 'em--I special ordered a Redline fixed gear from one of them
last year--most awful setup bike ever.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:40:11
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart.
Classic scenario. Poorly built wheel, with insufficient tension and not
stress-relieved.
> * Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
> fourth time.
There is a mathematical notion of recusion. You just do the same thing
over and over, ad infinitum. Gets tiresome after a while.
>
> * Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
> about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
> some kind of more permanent fix.
Maybe, but another wheel they built? Or, more likely, another wheel
they bought somewhere that was built by a machine -- this will be a
crapshoot. It might be better, it might be even worse.
>
> * Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
This might work.
>
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.
Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind. That will work, though they may tell you
to throw the wheel away and buy one from them, which might be cheaper.
Another option: Learn the ways of the wheelbuilder, Luke.
--
David L. Johnson
I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > writes:
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
>> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
>> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
>> permanent fix.
>
> Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
> first place? But, never mind.
I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.
Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
shops and order a new wheel.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 01:47:21
From: Dennis P. Harris
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
> I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.
ya buy a fred bike, ya get fred wheels, built by a machine. ask
the shop for a new wheel, and then take it to a decent shop that
has a real human wheelbuilder and pay him to tune it for you
*before* you ride it.
actually, have him tune both wheels.
or buy a truing stand and learn how to tune wheels.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 18:32:00
From: Jay
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:874pg8w8hh.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> "David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> writes:
>
>> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>>> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
>>> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
>>> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
>>> permanent fix.
>>
>> Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
>> first place? But, never mind.
>
> I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
> bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
> Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
> bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
> track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
> other than the dud wheel.
>
> Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
> shops and order a new wheel.
> --
> Ben Pfaff
> http://benpfaff.org
I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.
Also, I particularly enjoyed David's earlier reply, comparing good and
lesser bike shops. It seems to me that Performance wants to be the 'Best
Buy' of bikes. IMHO, the problem with this business model is Performance
needs to hire (and keep) skilled bike techs. This will probably be very
difficult to sustain, as Performance continues their retail store expansion.
It is a culture clash. Skilled bike techs are doing their own thing, cf. the
Performance homogenous corporate culture.
You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price, but
as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...
...America First Jay
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:02:57
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com > writes:
> You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price, but
> as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
> repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...
If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
commuting at the better bike shops at any price.
If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
:-)
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 21:09:33
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
I'd have said earlier your best bet was to buy "The Bicycle Wheel,"
tension and stress-relieve the wheel with new spokes before. But
then,
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:02:57 -0700, Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu >
wrote:
>If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
>half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
>fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
>isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
>:-)
This leads me to think that if Mike J. can build you a decent wheel
for $100, and you're willing to pay for it, that's your best bet.
After all, you get a working bike for only $500!
Pat
Email address works as is.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 21:29:31
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
> consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
> commuting at the better bike shops at any price.
There is no denying that this is part of the problem. Most of the shops
who employ someone who has _ever_ built a wheel simply do not sell bikes
for less than $1000 --- and I could almost say $2000. I know a few
exceptions, such as in Philly (and in Bethlehem), but they are the
exception.
Even most of the exceptions don't cater to commuters, and would lose
their shirts catering to commuters at $400 per bike.
Part of the issue is that we feel we can expect a decent bike for $400,
which would have bought a decent bike 20 years ago. We expect some sort
of economic miracle, such as airline tickets that cost no more than they
did 30 years ago, and we get what we deserve.
You want a bargain? Buy used. But know what you are doing before you buy.
--
David L. Johnson
Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 19:42:56
From: Jay
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Ben Pfaff" <blp@cs.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:87ve8oup5a.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org...
> "Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price,
>> but
>> as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
>> repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...
>
> If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
> consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
> commuting at the better bike shops at any price.
>
> If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
> half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
> fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
> isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
> :-)
> --
> Ben Pfaff
> http://benpfaff.org
I believe, there are two factors which tend to be lost (or minimized) in
arguments like yours;
your time spent, and
your aggravation.
But it seems like the euphoria at (seemingly) having saved a few bucks
overweights everything else.
I don't have that gene.
J.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 18:55:40
From: Mike A Schwab
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html is a guide to building a
wheel. Ideally, since this is your first time, it should be a spare
to practice with.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 18:42:46
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
"Ben Pfaff" (clip)* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager about
the problem, and hope that he can arrange for some kind of more permanent
fix. (clip)
*******************
I have always been happy with the warranty policy at Performance, but I
understand that this can vary from store to store. You owe it to yourself
and them to give the manager a chance to solve the problem. If he is not
smart enough correct and cement a relationship with a customer, you still
have the option to go elsewhere. If it comes to that, I wouldn't even give
them the benefit of knowing how badly they screwed up. Just leave and go
elsewhere.
When I owned a retail business, I felt that money spent on fixing problems
like this was like part of the advertising budget, only more effective.
Be sure to keep us posted.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:46:19
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Leo Lichtman wrote:
> You owe it to yourself
> and them to give the manager a chance to solve the problem. If he is not
> smart enough correct and cement a relationship with a customer, you still
> have the option to go elsewhere. If it comes to that, I wouldn't even give
> them the benefit of knowing how badly they screwed up. Just leave and go
> elsewhere.
Good advice.
--
David L. Johnson
I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922
|
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:59:51
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
On Oct 30, 12:10 pm, Ben Pfaff <b...@cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> >> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> >> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> >> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> >> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> >> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> >> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> >> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> > Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
> > wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
> > it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
> > prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
> > should be good till the rims wear out.
>
> How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
> the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
> thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
> some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?
Most shops that build up boxed bikes and sell them don't tune the
wheels if they're straight from the factory. Straight, however,
doesn't mean healthy. My last new bike I got a few months ago, for
example, from my beloved LBS, had appalling wheels. I tuned them as
soon as the bike got home, and they've been bulletproof.
Would I expect a shop to rebuild a wheel free of charge after a few
months? It would be nice if they did, but I think them giving you a
discount for a rebuild would be a fair option. I do think if the shop
sold you the bike, and replaced the spoke without seeing to the rest
of the wheel, that they are partially culpable.
As far as cost goes, in these parts wheel building labor is $40-50 +
parts. Add to that the labor to remove the old spokes. It *might* be
more cost effective to have them dial a prebuilt in for ya. This all
hinges on whether they've actually got somebody that's got wheel
dialing talent--an often rare skill at some LBS's. Might be worth
taking a trip to a better bike shop and getting it done right.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 10:21:03
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
> don't have the right skills.
>
> The options I'm considering are:
>
> * Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
> fourth time.
>
> * Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
> about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
> some kind of more permanent fix.
>
> * Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
>
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.
>
> Any advice?
I'd politely /demand/ a new wheel. This one is clearly defective. (Bad
build, bad parts, whatever.) Make a bit of a stink, if necessary, and you
should get some satisfaction.
Bill "not a bad idea to have a spare, too" S.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 09:56:56
From: landotter
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
> or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
> remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
> never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
> my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
> it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.
>
> The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
> don't have the right skills.
>
> The options I'm considering are:
>
> * Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
> fourth time.
>
> * Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
> about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
> some kind of more permanent fix.
>
> * Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).
>
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.
>
Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
should be good till the rims wear out.
Spending money on getting the wheel dialed in right seems smarter to
me than buying another factory built liability. With wheels, the
quality is mainly in the assembly.
|
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 10:10:51
From: Ben Pfaff
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > writes:
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
>> Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
>> I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
>> broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
>> month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
>> and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
>> broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
>> to decide how to deal with it.
>
> Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
> wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
> it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
> prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
> should be good till the rims wear out.
How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
|
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:44:06
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: what to do about dud wheel?
|
Ben Pfaff wrote:
> How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
> the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
> thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
> some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?
Other than the fact that they didn't build the wheel, there is no other
reason. But, given that some machine in Taiwan built the wheel, you
would have to go complain to the machine. All they are obligated to do,
from their perspective, is to give you another machine-built wheel.
Which will have the same problem.
The dirty little secret of many bike shops is that they do not expect
the bikes they sell to actually get ridden. This is usually a safe bet,
unfortunately. The good shops expect the bikes to be ridden, and
provide bikes that will hold up.
--
David L. Johnson
I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922
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|
