| |
Main
Date: 28 Jul 2007 10:01:09
From:
Subject: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
to cover the podium spots.
|
|
| |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 16:12:32
From: shane
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 29, 4:55 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> shane <jtorr_2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Dont know about the pay scandals you mention. But do Pro Tour cyclists
> > have a minimum wage?
>
> They do, but that isn't what im refereing to, until the protour quite
> a few division 1 and 2 teams folded every midseason. Riders where ofte
> left without pay, for months, years or ever. Today every protour team
> has to deposite a large sum of money in order to be be able to pay
> their employes if the team folds.
>
> > As far as coverage goes, in the US we get very little coverage besides
> > the tour, so to me it seems the same. I thought eurosport was covering
> > smaller pro tour races (fleche, wevelgem,) before the pro tour. I dont
> > think I saw coverage of something like volta a catalunya on eurosport.
>
> Eurosport covers almost every protour race, in addition to that they
> have begun covering the smaler races in Belgoum, Holland germany and
> northern france.
>
> In addition to that viasat are covering races too. I northern europe
> the focus is on protour events and races from northerne france,
> belgim and france.
>
> > As far as top team participation in smaller protour events goes, does
> > Euskaltel sending a C team to the Giro , or Lampre sending a C team to
> > the Vuelta really help these races or teams?
>
> Dunno, one could argue that it's an opptunity for the teams younger
> riders. However it does have the positive effect that the contineltal
> teams has been able to attract more sponsors because they have
> improved their ability to expose their sponsors.
>
> > Even pro tour teams have
> > national priorities, which the Pro Tour seems to intefere with. Im not
> > sure if this means that there should be less pro tour teams, or just
> > more intl sponsors, but I think its a problem.
>
> In that case, perhaps they should have applyed for a continental licence
> instead.
>
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
Thanks for your insights Morten...
|
| |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 09:39:32
From: shane
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 29, 8:10 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> shane <jtorr_2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for the history lesson Morten, it makes this whole mess make a
> > bit more sense.
>
> > Unfortunately, theres needs to be a balance between cleaning the sport
> > and protecting the image of the sport (even though its kind of a
> > conflict). It seems to me that the UCI is cleaning the sport,but not
> > caring about the business aspect of it. Operation Puerto is an example
> > that comes to mind, where the press only focuses on the cyclists and
> > no other athletes. It doesnt seem to me that the UCI is capable of
> > protecting the sport as a business. Has the Pro Tour really
> > accomplished anything positive?
>
> Oh yes:
>
> 1) Riders are beeing paid. Remember when Mercury and the Lindsay
> McCartney folded?
> 2) That the teams are abliged to participate in events which assures a
> higher credibility of the races.
> 3) Teams can't ignore smaler protour events.
> 4) The ethical charter.
> 5) Increased the sponsors interest in smaller protour events.
> 6) The importance for non protour teams to aim for a spot on the
> protour has incressed the revenue from non protour teams sponsors.
> 7) Increased the competition among continental teams in non protour
> events, because the protour teams or riders doesn't get points in
> those races. The continental teams thrives, in a small country like
> Denmark the protour has increased the number of continetal teams
> competing in international events. It's great for young talents.
>
> > clean sport is great , but if in the process theres no athletes or
> > fans left, was it worth it?
>
> The protour has increased the TV coverage of smaller protour events
> and attracted more sponsors to those events.
>
> The protour might not be better for TDF but it has been a positive for
> just about every other race. In order for cycling sport to build a
> future cycling needs to more than TDF. The protour is all about that.
>
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
Thanks for this perspective Morten
Dont know about the pay scandals you mention. But do Pro Tour cyclists
have a minimum wage?
As far as coverage goes, in the US we get very little coverage besides
the tour, so to me it seems the same. I thought eurosport was covering
smaller pro tour races (fleche, wevelgem,) before the pro tour. I dont
think I saw coverage of something like volta a catalunya on eurosport.
As far as top team participation in smaller protour events goes, does
Euskaltel sending a C team to the Giro , or Lampre sending a C team to
the Vuelta really help these races or teams? Even pro tour teams have
national priorities, which the Pro Tour seems to intefere with. Im not
sure if this means that there should be less pro tour teams, or just
more intl sponsors, but I think its a problem.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 22:55:20
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
shane <jtorr_2000@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Dont know about the pay scandals you mention. But do Pro Tour cyclists
> have a minimum wage?
They do, but that isn't what im refereing to, until the protour quite
a few division 1 and 2 teams folded every midseason. Riders where ofte
left without pay, for months, years or ever. Today every protour team
has to deposite a large sum of money in order to be be able to pay
their employes if the team folds.
> As far as coverage goes, in the US we get very little coverage besides
> the tour, so to me it seems the same. I thought eurosport was covering
> smaller pro tour races (fleche, wevelgem,) before the pro tour. I dont
> think I saw coverage of something like volta a catalunya on eurosport.
Eurosport covers almost every protour race, in addition to that they
have begun covering the smaler races in Belgoum, Holland germany and
northern france.
In addition to that viasat are covering races too. I northern europe
the focus is on protour events and races from northerne france,
belgim and france.
> As far as top team participation in smaller protour events goes, does
> Euskaltel sending a C team to the Giro , or Lampre sending a C team to
> the Vuelta really help these races or teams?
Dunno, one could argue that it's an opptunity for the teams younger
riders. However it does have the positive effect that the contineltal
teams has been able to attract more sponsors because they have
improved their ability to expose their sponsors.
> Even pro tour teams have
> national priorities, which the Pro Tour seems to intefere with. Im not
> sure if this means that there should be less pro tour teams, or just
> more intl sponsors, but I think its a problem.
In that case, perhaps they should have applyed for a continental licence
instead.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 03:46:40
From: shane
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 28, 8:51 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> shane <jtorr_2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > How many other lucrative pro sports are controlled by an amateur
> > organization the way the UCI controls pro cycling? I dont see
> > NBA,MLB,Soccer, etc getting slapped around by everyone else the way
> > the UCI does, and these sports have their problems too..
>
> Dunno about the american sports but as i recall fotball, hokey
> baseball and hokey are all purely comercial. As for baseeball and
> Football no global or even national amateur organisations exists.
> Athleets are recuted through highscools and college, Those sports are
> only execiced by kids and elite athleestes. Once out of highscool or
> college athletes who don't turn pro stop exercicing their sport. Am i
> correct?
>
> Soccer and the majoreity of european sports are all controled by an
> amteur organisation. The most powerfull, welthiest and most
> successfull regional soccer organisation, UFEA, is defenatly an
> ameteur organisation with a hiracical repressentation founded en
> amateur clubs as members of a national federation. Just like the UCI.
>
> Never the less a similar confilct between the 12 wealtiest soccer club
> somtimes errupts between them and UEFA, and they have threadned to
> leave UFEA and go "america" p=E5 forming a pure commercial leauge on
> their own. Champions League is a very successfull compromise, and the
> protour is an attemt to do the same thing in cycling, however ASO and
> especcialle TDF is way bigger and gnerates way more revenues than any
> other event in cycling. Now ASO seems to think they can pull off a
> seperation without infliction too much damage to their own product..
>
> The relationship between ASO and UCI has reached a level of paranoia,
> especially on the ASO side.
> ASO refuses to talk to Pat McQaid. They are accusiong him to be
> Hein Verbrugge's puppet, eg. implying that even though Verbrugge is no
> longer a UCI official he is still behind every decission taken by the
> UCI.
>
> The really interresting part comes here: Verbrugge left UCI arround
> 2 years ago after forming the protour with the concent of ASO.
> After he left UCI he was part of a large consortium who tried to buy
> the ASO. After that ASO started their war against UCI's prootour
> because they think that the protour was created by Verbrugge with the
> single purpose to control ASO.
>
> So, we are stuck with a conflict where ASO doesn't want to talk to
> UCI's president because they say he is not really in power. They won't
> talk to Verbrugge and even if they did it won't help because he is not
> UCI and he does not have the authority to act on behalf of UCI.
>
> Durring the last 3 weeks ASO has managed to blame UCI for beeing
> responsible for everything wrong in cycling, even though they are co-
> responsible and they themselves have blocked every attemt to come up
> with a soloution. TDF is not the victim here, ther riders are the only
> victims.
>
> Now the ASO claims that the can fix whats wrong on the administrative
> level and that they can emliminate doping. The truth is that they may
> be able to eliminate some of the administartive bureaucracy, but doing
> so will be on expence of being a democratic orgianisation as UCI is.
> Regarding doping in cycling i belive that UCI has a more sencire wish
> to minimize dopeing among the athletes because UCI are acting on behalf
> on the atletes (pro, elite and amaturs). A professional ASO
> organisation only has to answar to the owners, in this case a company
> and its shareholders. Their fight against doping will be very visible
> but not neccesarily efficint. Their main priority will be to show that
> they are doing something, not to really do somathing. It'l be a
> showoff just like antidoping in the commercial american sports.
>
> > If ASO,RCS and unipublic get together, they have most of the very top
> > races except for Flanders. They can set up a league no problem...this
> > isnt indy cars
>
> I'm well aware of that, but it wont be sport. It will be showbuiz, and
> it wont fix anything.
>
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
Thanks for the history lesson Morten, it makes this whole mess make a
bit more sense.
Unfortunately, theres needs to be a balance between cleaning the sport
and protecting the image of the sport (even though its kind of a
conflict). It seems to me that the UCI is cleaning the sport,but not
caring about the business aspect of it. Operation Puerto is an example
that comes to mind, where the press only focuses on the cyclists and
no other athletes. It doesnt seem to me that the UCI is capable of
protecting the sport as a business. Has the Pro Tour really
accomplished anything positive? A clean sport is great , but if in the
process theres no athletes or fans left, was it worth it?
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 14:10:06
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
shane <jtorr_2000@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Thanks for the history lesson Morten, it makes this whole mess make a
> bit more sense.
>
> Unfortunately, theres needs to be a balance between cleaning the sport
> and protecting the image of the sport (even though its kind of a
> conflict). It seems to me that the UCI is cleaning the sport,but not
> caring about the business aspect of it. Operation Puerto is an example
> that comes to mind, where the press only focuses on the cyclists and
> no other athletes. It doesnt seem to me that the UCI is capable of
> protecting the sport as a business. Has the Pro Tour really
> accomplished anything positive?
Oh yes:
1) Riders are beeing paid. Remember when Mercury and the Lindsay
McCartney folded?
2) That the teams are abliged to participate in events which assures a
higher credibility of the races.
3) Teams can't ignore smaler protour events.
4) The ethical charter.
5) Increased the sponsors interest in smaller protour events.
6) The importance for non protour teams to aim for a spot on the
protour has incressed the revenue from non protour teams sponsors.
7) Increased the competition among continental teams in non protour
events, because the protour teams or riders doesn't get points in
those races. The continental teams thrives, in a small country like
Denmark the protour has increased the number of continetal teams
competing in international events. It's great for young talents.
> clean sport is great , but if in the process theres no athletes or
> fans left, was it worth it?
The protour has increased the TV coverage of smaller protour events
and attracted more sponsors to those events.
The protour might not be better for TDF but it has been a positive for
just about every other race. In order for cycling sport to build a
future cycling needs to more than TDF. The protour is all about that.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 15:23:30
From: shane
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 28, 4:27 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> > > to cover the podium spots.
> > Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
> > winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
>
> Michael Rasmussen is still the winner of stage 16, even if he gets a
> third warning for not beeing in Mexico. If he gets a third warning it
> will lead to a diciplinary case in witch he can get a 3 -12 months
> quarenteene. A third warning will not lead to a doping case. Those are
> the rules of WADA, witch funny enough are the rules that ASO says they
> want's to follow.
>
> Compare it to a soccer game. A player scores a goal, later in the game
> the player gets a red card for foul play and no more goals are scored.
> The team with who scored the goal wins the game by 1:0. That is how a
> sporting event works.
>
> Up until today when ASO publicied that they are leaving UCI, they
> where bound by the laws of UCI and CAS. From now on they don't have to
> follow other rules than civil law. Now, If they want to they could
> give Sylvian Chavanel a 3 hours time bonus for having the nicest
> haircut or the cutest turtle.
>
> Up until yesterday TDF was a sporting event, in the future its a
> showbuiz event like World Wrestling, the Oscars or a Beatles concert..
>
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
How many other lucrative pro sports are controlled by an amateur
organization the way the UCI controls pro cycling? I dont see
NBA,MLB,Soccer, etc getting slapped around by everyone else the way
the UCI does, and these sports have their problems too..
If ASO,RCS and unipublic get together, they have most of the very top
races except for Flanders. They can set up a league no problem...this
isnt indy cars
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 02:51:47
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
shane <jtorr_2000@hotmail.com > wrote:
> How many other lucrative pro sports are controlled by an amateur
> organization the way the UCI controls pro cycling? I dont see
> NBA,MLB,Soccer, etc getting slapped around by everyone else the way
> the UCI does, and these sports have their problems too..
Dunno about the american sports but as i recall fotball, hokey
baseball and hokey are all purely comercial. As for baseeball and
Football no global or even national amateur organisations exists.
Athleets are recuted through highscools and college, Those sports are
only execiced by kids and elite athleestes. Once out of highscool or
college athletes who don't turn pro stop exercicing their sport. Am i
correct?
Soccer and the majoreity of european sports are all controled by an
amteur organisation. The most powerfull, welthiest and most
successfull regional soccer organisation, UFEA, is defenatly an
ameteur organisation with a hiracical repressentation founded en
amateur clubs as members of a national federation. Just like the UCI.
Never the less a similar confilct between the 12 wealtiest soccer club
somtimes errupts between them and UEFA, and they have threadned to
leave UFEA and go "america" på forming a pure commercial leauge on
their own. Champions League is a very successfull compromise, and the
protour is an attemt to do the same thing in cycling, however ASO and
especcialle TDF is way bigger and gnerates way more revenues than any
other event in cycling. Now ASO seems to think they can pull off a
seperation without infliction too much damage to their own product..
The relationship between ASO and UCI has reached a level of paranoia,
especially on the ASO side.
ASO refuses to talk to Pat McQaid. They are accusiong him to be
Hein Verbrugge's puppet, eg. implying that even though Verbrugge is no
longer a UCI official he is still behind every decission taken by the
UCI.
The really interresting part comes here: Verbrugge left UCI arround
2 years ago after forming the protour with the concent of ASO.
After he left UCI he was part of a large consortium who tried to buy
the ASO. After that ASO started their war against UCI's prootour
because they think that the protour was created by Verbrugge with the
single purpose to control ASO.
So, we are stuck with a conflict where ASO doesn't want to talk to
UCI's president because they say he is not really in power. They won't
talk to Verbrugge and even if they did it won't help because he is not
UCI and he does not have the authority to act on behalf of UCI.
Durring the last 3 weeks ASO has managed to blame UCI for beeing
responsible for everything wrong in cycling, even though they are co-
responsible and they themselves have blocked every attemt to come up
with a soloution. TDF is not the victim here, ther riders are the only
victims.
Now the ASO claims that the can fix whats wrong on the administrative
level and that they can emliminate doping. The truth is that they may
be able to eliminate some of the administartive bureaucracy, but doing
so will be on expence of being a democratic orgianisation as UCI is.
Regarding doping in cycling i belive that UCI has a more sencire wish
to minimize dopeing among the athletes because UCI are acting on behalf
on the atletes (pro, elite and amaturs). A professional ASO
organisation only has to answar to the owners, in this case a company
and its shareholders. Their fight against doping will be very visible
but not neccesarily efficint. Their main priority will be to show that
they are doing something, not to really do somathing. It'l be a
showoff just like antidoping in the commercial american sports.
> If ASO,RCS and unipublic get together, they have most of the very top
> races except for Flanders. They can set up a league no problem...this
> isnt indy cars
I'm well aware of that, but it wont be sport. It will be showbuiz, and
it wont fix anything.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 22:05:44
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 02:51:47 +0200, Morten Reippuert
Knudsen<spam@reippuert.dk > wrote:
>As for baseeball and
>Football no global or even national amateur organisations exists.
There is an international baseball federation (IBAF) and has been
since before WW2. Of course, they have no control over professional
baseball in any country. They sponsor the baseball world cup and
other torrnaments. The were co-sponsors with MLB of the World
Baseball Classic last year.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 01:18:54
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
"shane" <jtorr_2000@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185661410.335287.296620@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 28, 4:27 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
>> DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
>> > > to cover the podium spots.
>> > Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
>> > winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
>>
>> Michael Rasmussen is still the winner of stage 16, even if he gets a
>> third warning for not beeing in Mexico. If he gets a third warning it
>> will lead to a diciplinary case in witch he can get a 3 -12 months
>> quarenteene. A third warning will not lead to a doping case. Those are
>> the rules of WADA, witch funny enough are the rules that ASO says they
>> want's to follow.
>>
>> Compare it to a soccer game. A player scores a goal, later in the game
>> the player gets a red card for foul play and no more goals are scored.
>> The team with who scored the goal wins the game by 1:0. That is how a
>> sporting event works.
>>
>> Up until today when ASO publicied that they are leaving UCI, they
>> where bound by the laws of UCI and CAS. From now on they don't have to
>> follow other rules than civil law. Now, If they want to they could
>> give Sylvian Chavanel a 3 hours time bonus for having the nicest
>> haircut or the cutest turtle.
>>
>> Up until yesterday TDF was a sporting event, in the future its a
>> showbuiz event like World Wrestling, the Oscars or a Beatles concert..
>>
>> --
>> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>>
>> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
>
> How many other lucrative pro sports are controlled by an amateur
> organization the way the UCI controls pro cycling? I dont see
> NBA,MLB,Soccer, etc getting slapped around by everyone else the way
> the UCI does, and these sports have their problems too..
>
> If ASO,RCS and unipublic get together, they have most of the very top
> races except for Flanders. They can set up a league no problem...this
> isnt indy cars
Which was exactly the way it was going a few decades ago, the time that the
highest authority in the cycling world did not rest with the federations but
with the organizers of the most important races. In those days the UCI had
almost nothing to say and did exactly what Goddet and Lévitan (TdF,
P-Roubaix, P-Tours) with their croonies from the Gazetta dello Sport (Giro,
Milan-San Remo and Lombardia), Sportwereld (Flandres) and Les Sport
(P-Bruxelles, LBL, Fl. Wallone) told them to do. It couldn't be better (for
the organizers anyway), but it all changed when the authorities started
their anti-doping politics. Soccer, tennis, etc.all had a strong central
body to protect itself against outside intervention, but the UCI, poorly
organized and having few connections in political circles, made cycling like
a sitting duck. Which IMO is exactly the reason why the plans of the ASO
will have little effect. It won't be too difficult to win a power struggle
against the UCI, but the organizers of the top races are even more exposed
to the whims of the policital authorities than they were in the 1960's. The
French government would never have dared to close down the Tour after
Simpson's dead or even after the Festina scandal. But right now? I'm afraid
a lot of Frenchmen would be quite happy.
Benjo
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 03:10:22
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
benjo maso <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
> Which was exactly the way it was going a few decades ago, the time that the
> highest authority in the cycling world did not rest with the federations but
> with the organizers of the most important races. In those days the UCI had
> almost nothing to say and did exactly what Goddet and Lévitan (TdF,
> P-Roubaix, P-Tours) with their croonies from the Gazetta dello Sport (Giro,
> Milan-San Remo and Lombardia), Sportwereld (Flandres) and Les Sport
> (P-Bruxelles, LBL, Fl. Wallone) told them to do. It couldn't be better (for
> the organizers anyway), but it all changed when the authorities started
> their anti-doping politics. Soccer, tennis, etc.all had a strong central
> body to protect itself against outside intervention, but the UCI, poorly
> organized and having few connections in political circles, made cycling like
> a sitting duck. Which IMO is exactly the reason why the plans of the ASO
> will have little effect. It won't be too difficult to win a power struggle
> against the UCI, but the organizers of the top races are even more exposed
> to the whims of the policital authorities than they were in the 1960's. The
> French government would never have dared to close down the Tour after
> Simpson's dead or even after the Festina scandal. But right now? I'm afraid
> a lot of Frenchmen would be quite happy.
Speaking of doping, a return to the old days where the race organizers
decides everything it will be even harder to clean up cycling.
Remember that the doping in cycling have their root in the old system
(pre acting UCI).
A model where the organizers has to apply to the rules decided by a global
federation, rooted in national federations with individual clumbs and
their members is the only way to enforce an efficint antidpoing
system.
An antipoding program model with independant organisers dictated by
revenues will be a showoff antidoping program. It might keep the press
and the politicians away but it won't fix anything. This is the model
ASO will implement.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 01:35:42
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
Dans le message de news:5h216uF3ik7ttU1@mid.individual.net,
benjo maso <benjo.maso@chello.nl > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> The French government would
> never have dared to close down the Tour after Simpson's dead or even
> after the Festina scandal. But right now? I'm afraid a lot of
> Frenchmen would be quite happy.
> Benjo
It's rare for me to find disagreement with you, but I have an opposite view.
The government is so intent on imposing and superimposing order, they could
find this an opportunity, not a bundle of trash to be disposed of.
A second, larger reason is the usual one - money. Tourism is the second
industry in France (after bureaucracy - no kidding), and the event(s) do
much more for the treasury than something like Roland Garros. The fatted
calf has a long life to live.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 08:19:31
From:
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > a écrit dans le message de news:
46abd2ce$0$10241$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
> Dans le message de news:5h216uF3ik7ttU1@mid.individual.net,
> benjo maso <benjo.maso@chello.nl> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> The French government would
>> never have dared to close down the Tour after Simpson's dead or even
>> after the Festina scandal. But right now? I'm afraid a lot of
>> Frenchmen would be quite happy.
>> Benjo
>
> It's rare for me to find disagreement with you, but I have an opposite
> view. The government is so intent on imposing and superimposing order,
> they could find this an opportunity, not a bundle of trash to be disposed
> of.
>
> A second, larger reason is the usual one - money. Tourism is the second
> industry in France (after bureaucracy - no kidding), and the event(s) do
> much more for the treasury than something like Roland Garros. The fatted
> calf has a long life to live.
> --
> Bonne route !
>
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
>
Sandy,
I read some where that it was the intention of the French authority to
declare the tour some kind of "National institution" (I don't remember the
correct expression).
ASO knows very well to have the support of the French authority, and Sarko
in particular. Reason for what Patrice Clerc dare to defy UCI.
As you said the Tour is for France one of his most important display,
millions of tourist, news in the media, reports aso.
Then, the TDF is so popular among the French and no-french since more than
100 years that the French authority will never accept the death of the Tour.
What some jornalist fail to understand is that the Tour is 90 % a popular
fest and only 10 % a sportive event.
There were 2 millions in London ( If I am not mistaken) : Do we believe
there were 2 millions of cyclist fans ? Of course no.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 13:33:41
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
Montesquiou wrote:
> I read some where that it was the intention of the French authority to
> declare the tour some kind of "National institution" (I don't remember the
> correct expression).
> ASO knows very well to have the support of the French authority, and Sarko
> in particular. Reason for what Patrice Clerc dare to defy UCI.
> As you said the Tour is for France one of his most important display,
> millions of tourist, news in the media, reports aso.
> Then, the TDF is so popular among the French and no-french since more than
> 100 years that the French authority will never accept the death of the Tour.
> What some jornalist fail to understand is that the Tour is 90 % a popular
> fest and only 10 % a sportive event.
> There were 2 millions in London ( If I am not mistaken) : Do we believe
> there were 2 millions of cyclist fans ? Of course no.
So your are saying that the TDF is better off being a showbuiz event
than a sporting event? I tend to agree on that, but it won't be better
for cycling as a sport. And it certainly won't reduce the usage of
doping among the cyclists in TDF since ASO won't have a reason to do
so, their main objective will be make it look like they are doing an
awfull lot and avoyd scandals (aka covering up).
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 22:41:39
From:
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk > a écrit dans le message de
news: lhaun4-6jb.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> Montesquiou wrote:
>
>> I read some where that it was the intention of the French authority to
>> declare the tour some kind of "National institution" (I don't remember
>> the
>> correct expression).
>> ASO knows very well to have the support of the French authority, and
>> Sarko
>> in particular. Reason for what Patrice Clerc dare to defy UCI.
>> As you said the Tour is for France one of his most important display,
>> millions of tourist, news in the media, reports aso.
>> Then, the TDF is so popular among the French and no-french since more
>> than
>> 100 years that the French authority will never accept the death of the
>> Tour.
>> What some jornalist fail to understand is that the Tour is 90 % a popular
>> fest and only 10 % a sportive event.
>> There were 2 millions in London ( If I am not mistaken) : Do we believe
>> there were 2 millions of cyclist fans ? Of course no.
>
> So your are saying that the TDF is better off being a showbuiz event
> than a sporting event?
No, I did not said " it was better", I said "It is a fact"
I tend to agree on that, but it won't be better
> for cycling as a sport. And it certainly won't reduce the usage of
> doping among the cyclists in TDF since ASO won't have a reason to do
> so, their main objective will be make it look like they are doing an
> awfull lot and avoyd scandals (aka covering up).
>
I don't know if you have followed a stage "on the road", but all the people
I was talking with, said "enough - Y en a marre de ces dopés... tricheurs -
Cheaters".
Put next year riders called Dupont or Smith, the public will be the same if
the public believe they are clean.
The European Consumer today want clean riders as he want product without GMO
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 01:54:11
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote in message
news:46abd2ce$0$10241$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
> Dans le message de news:5h216uF3ik7ttU1@mid.individual.net,
> benjo maso <benjo.maso@chello.nl> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> The French government would
>> never have dared to close down the Tour after Simpson's dead or even
>> after the Festina scandal. But right now? I'm afraid a lot of
>> Frenchmen would be quite happy.
>> Benjo
>
> It's rare for me to find disagreement with you, but I have an opposite
> view. The government is so intent on imposing and superimposing order,
> they could find this an opportunity, not a bundle of trash to be disposed
> of.
>
> A second, larger reason is the usual one - money. Tourism is the second
> industry in France (after bureaucracy - no kidding), and the event(s) do
> much more for the treasury than something like Roland Garros. The fatted
> calf has a long life to live.
I probably expressed myself poorly. I certainly don't think the French
government is going to close down the Tour shortly - I happened to be
interviewed today on some radio program, and I said that IMO the Tour would
be pretty safe for the next ten or twenty years. On the other hand, I
wouldn't be surprised if the rot is setting in.
Benjo
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 14:33:15
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 28, 2:15 pm, "Tom Grosman" <gros...@aonix.fr > wrote:
> <rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com> a =E9crit dans le message de news:
> 1185642069.471926.231...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 23:15:12
From: Tom Grosman
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
<rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com > a écrit dans le message de news:
1185642069.471926.231740@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 22:21:43
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
<rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185642069.471926.231740@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> to cover the podium spots.
>
On the other hand, if there hadn't been bonuses, the GC of 1932 would have
been:
1. Leducq
2. Stoepel 0'04"
3. Camusso 0'21"
Benjo
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 12:43:56
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> to cover the podium spots.
Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
That would make the GC even tighter.
DR
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 22:27:07
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
DirtRoadie <DirtRoadie@aol.com > wrote:
> On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> > to cover the podium spots.
> Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
> winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
Michael Rasmussen is still the winner of stage 16, even if he gets a
third warning for not beeing in Mexico. If he gets a third warning it
will lead to a diciplinary case in witch he can get a 3 -12 months
quarenteene. A third warning will not lead to a doping case. Those are
the rules of WADA, witch funny enough are the rules that ASO says they
want's to follow.
Compare it to a soccer game. A player scores a goal, later in the game
the player gets a red card for foul play and no more goals are scored.
The team with who scored the goal wins the game by 1:0. That is how a
sporting event works.
Up until today when ASO publicied that they are leaving UCI, they
where bound by the laws of UCI and CAS. From now on they don't have to
follow other rules than civil law. Now, If they want to they could
give Sylvian Chavanel a 3 hours time bonus for having the nicest
haircut or the cutest turtle.
Up until yesterday TDF was a sporting event, in the future its a
showbuiz event like World Wrestling, the Oscars or a Beatles concert..
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 07:13:20
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
in message <rdlsn4-6oa.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk >, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
> DirtRoadie <DirtRoadie@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
>> > to cover the podium spots.
>
>> Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
>> winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
>
> Michael Rasmussen is still the winner of stage 16, even if he gets a
> third warning for not beeing in Mexico. If he gets a third warning it
> will lead to a diciplinary case in witch he can get a 3 -12 months
> quarenteene. A third warning will not lead to a doping case. Those are
> the rules of WADA, witch funny enough are the rules that ASO says they
> want's to follow.
>
> Compare it to a soccer game. A player scores a goal, later in the game
> the player gets a red card for foul play and no more goals are scored.
> The team with who scored the goal wins the game by 1:0. That is how a
> sporting event works.
Rasmussen didn't get a red card. He was dismissed from his team, not
expelled from the tour by a referee/commissaire. He hasn't - yet - been
accused of anything for which he could have been expelled from the tour.
> Up until yesterday TDF was a sporting event, in the future its a
> showbuiz event like World Wrestling, the Oscars or a Beatles concert..
Actually, if you were to ask me whether I would prefer to trust the ASO or
the UCI to run a sporting event...
Damn, that's hard!
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 13:21:18
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
> in message <rdlsn4-6oa.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
> > DirtRoadie <DirtRoadie@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 11:01 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> >> > to cover the podium spots.
> >
> >> Since the winner was pulled from the race should Leipheimer claim the
> >> winner's time bonus on the Aubisque?
> >
> > Michael Rasmussen is still the winner of stage 16, even if he gets a
> > third warning for not beeing in Mexico. If he gets a third warning it
> > will lead to a diciplinary case in witch he can get a 3 -12 months
> > quarenteene. A third warning will not lead to a doping case. Those are
> > the rules of WADA, witch funny enough are the rules that ASO says they
> > want's to follow.
> >
> > Compare it to a soccer game. A player scores a goal, later in the game
> > the player gets a red card for foul play and no more goals are scored.
> > The team with who scored the goal wins the game by 1:0. That is how a
> > sporting event works.
> Rasmussen didn't get a red card. He was dismissed from his team, not
> expelled from the tour by a referee/commissaire. He hasn't - yet - been
> accused of anything for which he could have been expelled from the tour.
I know, i used it as an extreme example to explain why the results of
stage 16 stands.
> > Up until yesterday TDF was a sporting event, in the future its a
> > showbuiz event like World Wrestling, the Oscars or a Beatles concert..
> Actually, if you were to ask me whether I would prefer to trust the ASO or
> the UCI to run a sporting event...
I'd trust the organisation witch is democratic in it's foundation and
is willing to follow their own rules and the rules of sport, even
thoug they might not alwas like them.
> Damn, that's hard!
not relly
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 19:02:29
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
In article <1185642069.471926.231740@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> to cover the podium spots.
The fast end of the bell curve has been pruned off. Maybe Jeannie Longo
could have won this year.
The more interesting question:
Is this a small enough difference for Evans to give it a go on Sunday?
My guess is yes, but that Disco will be able to shut down the possible
moves too easily.
I would bet on every sprint point being contested by Evans and
Leipheimer, though.
Is it likely there will be any wind on the course tomorrow?
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 23:10:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: 31 seconds covers the podium
|
In article
<rcousine-48A24E.12022828072007@news.telus.net >,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1185642069.471926.231740@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > If the time gaps don't change, this will be the smallest time spread
> > to cover the podium spots.
>
> The fast end of the bell curve has been pruned off. Maybe Jeannie Longo
> could have won this year.
>
> The more interesting question:
>
> Is this a small enough difference for Evans to give it a go on Sunday?
>
> My guess is yes, but that Disco will be able to shut down the possible
> moves too easily.
>
> I would bet on every sprint point being contested by Evans and
> Leipheimer, though.
>
> Is it likely there will be any wind on the course tomorrow?
If Evans contests it he is in greater danger of his
twelve seconds evaporating.
--
Michael Press
|
|
