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Main
Date: 08 May 2007 10:57:08
From: RonSonic
Subject: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
question of the test's validity.
Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
incompetent labs are the difference.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refer=home
Ron
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Date: 11 May 2007 13:57:43
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On May 10, 10:59 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> You make some very good points. UCI may be in a position where it would seem
> advantageous for them to be on the rider's side. But if they actually perceive
> that, then they are staggeringly incompetent at serving those interests.
I agree. The biggest failure was unilaterally setting up the protour
system and then hanging Unibet out to dry. They obviously don't have
the the stomach to pull the UCI sanction from the races.
> I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
> the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
> they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
> say they certainly made a difference.
sure it does. but in the minds of the fans the skill is fundamental,
unlike sports which are mainly contests of speed, strengh, endurance.
> Here's an unasked question:
> Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
> professional sport?
Or all rules in general ? I'd say no. Some cycling disciplines are
connected to massive business interests, others are not.
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Date: 10 May 2007 11:09:42
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On May 10, 9:55 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> On 10 May 2007 06:37:57 -0700, shane wrote:
>
> > Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
> > accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
> > Olympics?
>
> Any cycling at all in the Olympics.
There's no reason why the gov. body for europro cycling has to be the
same as the gov. body for the rest of the sport.
The NBA/NHL have manged to work with their respective governing bodies
to allow their players to play in world championships and the
Olympics.
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Date: 10 May 2007 10:10:55
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On May 10, 10:59 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>
> I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
> the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
> they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
> say they certainly made a difference.
>
> Here's an unasked question:
> Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
> professional sport? All the other rules have variations and exemptions at
> different levels of sport. Sports that have their own organizations and haven't
> bent over for Dick Pound have often had different doping controls at different
> levels of the sport.
>
> Anyway, good post.
>
> Ron- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Don't be giing baseball any credit, or maybe it's just the sports
press, especially the Boston folks who are notorious.
Schilling rips Bonds with a shot that would've fit right in here, and
is being crucified, and was gutless enough to apologise. Our young kid
closer Papelbon says :
Quoted from:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/05/closer_chimes_i.html
Papelbon was asked if will be paying attention as Barry Bonds
approaches the all-time home run record.
"Yeah definitely," said Papelbon. "He's doing it for baseball. And I
think it's good for baseball. And I think that he's going out there
and crushing home runs and getting baseball back to where it was in
the late 1990s and such that, hey, fans are going to come out and see
the home runs, there's no doubt about it. And fans will come see good
pitching. And I think he's doing great for the game itself, so I can't
complain."
Papelbon was asked if baseball and commissioner Bud Selig should
embrace Bonds and the home run chase.
"Yeah definitely, 100 percent," replied Papelbon.
More at the link.
And nobody has even issued a mild criticism or question. If I was him
I'd be ready to be tested and asked a lot of questions. Pound would be
in the process of running his ass out of the sport right now.
Personally I think it is just a young, not very savvy kid spouting
off, but he pisses me off a lot more than Scilling.
Bill C
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Date: 10 May 2007 06:37:57
From: shane
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
Olympics?
Seems like accepting WADA was the worst thing they could have done...
amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 8, 10:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
> > for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
> > announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
> > games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
> > conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
> > question of the test's validity.
> >
> > Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
> > aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
> > as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
> > incompetent labs are the difference.
>
> dumbass,
>
> the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
> accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
> written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.
>
> that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
> that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
> with a problem in the optimal way.
>
> on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
> trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.
>
> a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
> was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
> at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
> that.
>
> in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
> of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
> sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
> steroids, etc.
>
> pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
> the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
> able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
> don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
> penalty we handed out when we found one".
>
> any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
> before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
> isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
> faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
> are tied.
>
> if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
> would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
> for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
> the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
> by the time that happens.
>
> if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
> is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
> held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
> they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
> satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.
>
> instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
> outside of cycling are pursuing things.
>
> desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
> gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
> own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
> between the UCI and WADA.
>
> until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
> confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.
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Date: 10 May 2007 15:55:42
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On 10 May 2007 06:37:57 -0700, shane wrote:
> Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
> accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
> Olympics?
Any cycling at all in the Olympics.
> Seems like accepting WADA was the worst thing they could have done...
Could still be true.
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 09 May 2007 22:56:21
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On May 8, 10:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
> for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
> announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
> games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
> conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
> question of the test's validity.
>
> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
> incompetent labs are the difference.
dumbass,
the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.
that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
with a problem in the optimal way.
on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.
a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
that.
in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
steroids, etc.
pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
penalty we handed out when we found one".
any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
are tied.
if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
by the time that happens.
if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.
instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
outside of cycling are pursuing things.
desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
between the UCI and WADA.
until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.
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Date: 10 May 2007 10:59:33
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On 9 May 2007 22:56:21 -0700, "amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com >
wrote:
>On May 8, 10:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
>> for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
>> announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
>> games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
>> conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
>> question of the test's validity.
>>
>> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
>> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
>> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
>> incompetent labs are the difference.
>
>dumbass,
>
>the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
>accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
>written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.
>
>that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
>that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
>with a problem in the optimal way.
>
>on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
>trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.
>
>a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
>was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
>at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
>that.
>
>in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
>of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
>sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
>steroids, etc.
>
>pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
>the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
>able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
>don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
>penalty we handed out when we found one".
>
>any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
>before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
>isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
>faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
>are tied.
>
>if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
>would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
>for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
>the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
>by the time that happens.
>
>if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
>is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
>held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
>they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
>satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.
>
>instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
>outside of cycling are pursuing things.
>
>desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
>gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
>own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
>between the UCI and WADA.
>
>until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
>confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.
Dumbass -
You make some very good points. UCI may be in a position where it would seem
advantageous for them to be on the rider's side. But if they actually perceive
that, then they are staggeringly incompetent at serving those interests.
I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
say they certainly made a difference.
Here's an unasked question:
Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
professional sport? All the other rules have variations and exemptions at
different levels of sport. Sports that have their own organizations and haven't
bent over for Dick Pound have often had different doping controls at different
levels of the sport.
Anyway, good post.
Ron
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Date: 09 May 2007 10:54:28
From: treynolds@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On May 8, 7:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
> for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
> announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
> games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
> conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
> question of the test's validity.
>
> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
> incompetent labs are the difference.
>
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refe...
>
> Ron
Judging from his record, it doesn't look like the performance-
enhancing drugs were helping.
Tom
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Date: 09 May 2007 19:32:25
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
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On 9 May 2007 10:54:28 -0700, "treynolds@my-deja.com"
<thomas.treynolds@gmail.com > wrote:
>On May 8, 7:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
>> for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
>> announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
>> games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
>> conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
>> question of the test's validity.
>>
>> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
>> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
>> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
>> incompetent labs are the difference.
>>
>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refe...
>>
>> Ron
>
>Judging from his record, it doesn't look like the performance-
>enhancing drugs were helping.
He didn't have Grape Preparation.
Ron
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Date: 09 May 2007 04:50:35
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
On May 8, 2:50 pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> UCI != WADA.
>
> One of the things that is going on is WADA is picking off an
> easy target. As opposed to soccer, which would be a very
> difficult target.
True ... but there first has to be the agreement of the sport to even
be governed by a body
US pro football, baseball, etc. don't submit to being goverened by a
body that has accepted WADA as an authority. Then things would be out
of their control.
Soccer (the other football) has FIFA ... but you can still see the
impact of the money, making it, as you say, a difficult target.
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Date: 09 May 2007 00:42:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
In article <mf3143lf7kf7k9fadsvfuubs7r4l1vcee7@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
> for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
> announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
> games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
> conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
> question of the test's validity.
>
> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
> incompetent labs are the difference.
>
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refer=home
He must also attend a five week class on drug testing methodology.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 09 May 2007 10:37:37
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
Michael Press wrote:
> He must also attend a five week class on drug testing methodology.
Fuentes must have found a new job in the education sector.
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Date: 08 May 2007 11:23:21
From: shane
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
Almost makes you hope that the major tours split from the UCI, and
take all their races with them. Not much would be left of the UCI pro-
tour if that happened.
derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
>
> One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
> 'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
> the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
> public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
> illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
> loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
> owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
> cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
> governing body were all on the same page.
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Date: 08 May 2007 09:53:11
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
On May 8, 10:57 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
> aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
> as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
> incompetent labs are the difference.
One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
governing body were all on the same page.
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Date: 08 May 2007 13:50:39
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.
|
derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
> One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
> 'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
> the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
> public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
> illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
> loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
> owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
> cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
> governing body were all on the same page.
>
UCI != WADA.
One of the things that is going on is WADA is picking off an
easy target. As opposed to soccer, which would be a very
difficult target.
Bob Schwartz
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