Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

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Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:03:49
From:
Subject: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.

Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.

Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.

Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.

Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
minute....

Date: 13 Aug 2007 03:47:24
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 12, 9:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:

>
> If the lifter does not have the power to move the
> weight, he does not have the speed to keep it moving
> past the dead spots. This is secondary school physics.
> power = force times speed. More muscle means more force
> means more speed. _I_ can snatch 25 kilograms, have all
> the _speed_ I need. I do not have the speed to snatch
> 150 kg because I cannot exert the _force_.
>
> Sounds to me the speed of which you speak is technique
> and mental preparation.
>
> --
> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The speed doesn't remove the weight, but the upward momentum
generated by the legs and lower body does reduce it to a level that
the shoulders can basically upright row up, and then flip from a
pulling position to a pushing. Both moves are basically "cheat" moves
to get a weight you couldn't lift in a "strict" fashion to the "press"
position. In the "jerk" the lifter simultaneously presses the weight,
and drops his lower body to allow the ars to "lock" then finishes the
lift with the legs. It's the same theory. The weight at chest or
shoulder is at the least mechanical advantage for the arms to lift
overhead so you use inertia, and a little force to allow you to move
the arms into a better mechanical position. Otherwise you'd never have
the strength to press the weight up.
It's a simple case of using the largest muscles, basic physics, and
mechanics to assist the smaller muscles.
Bill C

Date: 12 Aug 2007 13:06:18
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 12, 8:10 am, "mal" <malcolm1...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
> news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <__8vi.13599$rR.9...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >>news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>
> >> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
>
> >> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been
> >> using
> >> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them
> >> up
> >> and not increased their speed.
>
> > Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> > for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> > enough.
>
> > Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> > on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> > baseball players don't.
>
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> Go to power or weightlifter's site. Speed is incredibly important. Its not
> circus dumbbell lifting.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Especially in the overhead lifts. The ability to "explode" with the
lower body is key to getting the weight up. In both the "snatch" where
the weight is taken straight over head, and the "clean and jerk" where
the weight is paused at the chest/shoulder area the biggest factor in
getting over the "dead" spot just below mid chest is the momentum from
the explosive drive off the ground.
Squats and deadlifts are technique and pure power with speed not
being much of a factor. On bench presses speed can be a factor in
doing high rep work if you bounce it off the chest and explode out,
but in competition ispeed isn't a factor there either.
Both the snatch, and clean and jerk, are massively more difficult
than any other of the moves since they require just about every single
muscle to work, under enormous load, in a tiny period of time, in a
controlled manner. Any little weakness, or glitch, and your off
balance and trying to get your feet out of the way.
Both moves are incredible ways to build overall strength and control,
AFTER getting lots of coaching on technique.
Bill C

Date: 11 Aug 2007 17:35:10
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 11, 11:06 am, "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com >
wrote:
> On 08/11/2007 08:05 AM, in article
> Dmjvi.13655$rR.13...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
>
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>
> >> Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> >> for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> >> enough.
>
> > Then by all means cite the studies.
>
> http://www.eric.ed.gov:80/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails...
> mini.jsp?_nfpb=3Dtrue&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=3DEJ374335&ERICExtSea=
rch_Se=ADa
> rchType_0=3Deric_accno&accno=3DEJ374335
>
> Title: Psychomotor and Motor Speed in Power Athletes Self-Administering
> Testosterone and Anabolic Steroids.
>
> Source: Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport, v59 n1 p50-56 Mar 1=
988
>
> Abstract: Self-administered testosterone and anabolic steroids resulted
> in insignificant improvement in psychomotor and motor speed tests of power
> athletes. This study is part of a larger study on the effects of such dru=
gs
> on endocrinology, metabolism and neuromuscular functions. Methodolgy and
> results are discussed. (Author/JL)
>
> So steroids have little, if any effect on speed.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=3DRetrieve&db=3Dpubmed&dopt=
=3D...
> tPlus&list_uids=3D10710012
>
> 1: J Sci Med Sport. 1999 Dec;2(4):341-55.Links
> Muscular strength, body composition and health responses to the use of
> testosterone enanthate: a double blind study.
>
> Giorgi A, Weatherby RP, Murphy PW.
> School of Exercise Science and Sports Management, Southern Cross Universi=
ty,
> Lismore, NSW, Australia.
>
> The results from the study revealed that the testosterone/weight training
> group improved significantly (p<0.05) more than the placebo/weight traini=
ng
> group during and immediately after the administration phase on a 1
> repetition maximum bench press. With regards to body composition, body
> weight, arm girth and rectus femoris circumference all increased
> significantly greater in the TE group compared to the placebo. Furthermor=
e,
> the abdomen skinfold showed significant decreases in the TE group compared
> to the placebo group at post testing, follow up mid testing and the follow
> up post testing occasions.
>
> Consequently, moderate doses of TE combined with weight training can resu=
lt
> in short term significant changes in upper body strength and body
> composition, with corresponding changes to baseline health in some
> individuals.
>
> And 'roids have significant effect on upper body strength/power ...
>
> Seems like the perfect drug for a home-run hitter ...
>
> >> Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> >> on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> >> baseball players don't.
>
> > What exactly do you know about it?
>
> --
> Steven L. Sheffield
> stevens at veloworks dot com
> bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
> ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
> aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash

Steroids work just as well on lower body muscles. If you want
explosiveness you add plyometrics and other training to your regimine.
This is typical NFL stuff and was standard procedure for a couple of
decades. The argument that lifting weights (add some steroids too)
would ruin any major league hitter because they would be too big and
"musclebound" looks pretty stupid today doesn't it?
Steroids are VERY simple. They allow you to recover quicker and build
more mass and strength. How you train that is up to you. That's why
you've had world record holding track and field sprinters busted for
them, along with pure powerlifters.
They really are a very basic tool in the toolbox. You then choose the
other tools for the finish work.
Bill C

Date: 10 Aug 2007 17:31:46
From: dbrower
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 10, 10:28 am, Jack Hollis <xslee...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:03:49 -0700, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
> >FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
> >raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>
> Bonds never tested positive for any substance. Unlike cycling, a
> positive test is required to suspend a MLB player. Bonds is under
> suspicion because of his association with Balco Labs who had produced
> a steroid that was undetectable using the methods of that time.
> Obviously, Bonds could have been using that steroid and never tested
> positive.

Well, Bonds did test positive once for amphetamines, which had been
common in MLB. This was not enough to produce a significant sanction
under MLB's policy. So those who say Bonds has never tested positive
are incorrect.

With Landis, there is unresolved dispute about whether the test
results are, in fact, positives, which remains open.

Again to Bonds, it is not clear that during the BALCO timeframe there
was any MLB rule being broken. Let me repeat that: even if Bonds
confessed, which some may take his grand jury testimony as having
done, he may not have broken any rules of the game. Where is the
cheating? If the feds had gone after him and locked him up for
lying, that might have taken him out of the game.

Landis says clearly that taking PEDs on the prohibited list is
cheating, and if he took them he'd be guilty of cheating. He says he
didn't, and the tests don't show he did, and we'll see about it.

Meanwhile, Bonds' place in the records books is secure, until A-Rod
catches up.

-dB http://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research, and
comment.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 02:27:23
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"dbrower" <dbrower@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186792306.132127.203790@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> With Landis, there is unresolved dispute about whether the test
> results are, in fact, positives, which remains open.

There is no question regarding Landis. The initial test of his urine yielded
a t/e ratio of 4.5:1. The normal variation in athletes is as much as 12:1
but they usually set the limits to 6:1 in most sports. In order to show that
they are testing more UCI reduced the "suspicious" levels to 4:1 so that it
would require a secondary test. The lab literature claims that their tests
are accurate to within 30%. The second test of Landis SAME sample was 11:1
which was an absolutely clear indication that there was contamination in the
sample, probably a bacteria which was consuming the epitestosterone, and BY
WADA RULES should have been thrown out as a bad sample.

Instead ASO, the testing lab which is owned by ASO, WADA and UCI decided to
declare that a positive test result. You might remember that despite the
rules stating that the defendant can have his own representative present at
the testing of the B sample, Floyds representative was NOT allowed to watch
the testing which conveniently tested also positive.

What's more - the levels of testosterone in Floyd's sample were NORMAL. It
was the epitestosterone which was very low which caused the positive.

This entire campaign has been a farce from the beginning and most of the
officials involved should be serving long sentences for their actions in
this case.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 16:21:31
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 10, 7:00 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <Mi4vi.13542$tj6.12...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:rubrum-2FA432.12583810082007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> > > In article
> > > <L7Rui.15183$zA4...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > >> <runcyclexc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > >> > Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> > >> > the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>
> > >> > Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> > >> > am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>
> > >> > Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> > >> > Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
> > >> Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would
> > >> improve
> > >> his hand-eye coordination? Do you have any idea at all what steroids do?
>
> > >> Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
> > >> increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.
>
> > > Anabolic steroids build muscle mass
> > > and that helps hit the ball further
> > > and throw the ball harder. Also aids
> > > in recovery, allowing an athlete to
> > > be closer to the top of his game for
> > > more extended periods.
>
> > > Barry Bonds did take anabolic steroids.
> > > <http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2007/05/barry-bonds-chemical-crea...>
> > > <http://jeromeprophet.blogspot.com/2007/08/barry-bonds-before-and-afte...>
> > > <http://www.babeslovebaseball.com/2007/05/welcome-to-alleged-juicer-ro...>
>
> > In the same period of time that Bonds weight changed I went from 145 lbs to
> > 200. My hat size increased from 6 7/8ths to 7 1/4th despite my going bald.
> > My shoe size went from 11 to 12. I never used any sort of steroids in any
> > form.
>
> > Is it your belief that he "bulked up" somehow more than he could have simply
> > by lifting weights and getting older?
>
> I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
>
> --
> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text

He admits he used steroids. That's not even in the discussion. He just
claims he thought it was "flaxseed oil".
The guy who was his "trainer" is still in prison as far as I know.
Bill C

Date: 10 Aug 2007 22:00:55
From:
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 9, 6:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>
> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>
> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>
> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....

OK, after much thought, I believe I have some kind of answer. It
starts with the Butch Reynolds case, in which he won a lawsuit against
the international athletics federation for tens of millions of dollars
in the early 1990's. I think that because of this case probably the
American professional sports organizations realized that their
athletes might all start long legal battles with huge lawsuits if
there were equivalent suspensions in their sport. Given all the
qualified lawyers ready to take up such cases, and the possibility of
getting bankrupted if any one athlete actually won his case, the
organizations decided not to embark on strong sanctions for doping.

On the other hand, European athletes were much less willing or able to
fight their cases and, in general, it seems much harder to sue and win
for numerous millions over in Europe. There is also the fact that
European athletes don't understand their rights, e.g., their claims of
"proving their innocence" last year. If every cyclist accused of
doping brought as much effort into challenging the case as landis did,
then the situation would be impossible. That situation might be
exactly what would happen in US professional sports started rigorous
anti-doping measures.

-ilan

Date: 10 Aug 2007 19:39:25
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:00:55 -0000, ilanpsi@gmail.com wrote:

>On Aug 9, 6:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>
>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>>
>> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>>
>> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
>> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
>> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>>
>> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
>> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
>> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
>> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
>> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
>> minute....
>
>OK, after much thought, I believe I have some kind of answer. It
>starts with the Butch Reynolds case, in which he won a lawsuit against
>the international athletics federation for tens of millions of dollars
>in the early 1990's. I think that because of this case probably the
>American professional sports organizations realized that their
>athletes might all start long legal battles with huge lawsuits if
>there were equivalent suspensions in their sport. Given all the
>qualified lawyers ready to take up such cases, and the possibility of
>getting bankrupted if any one athlete actually won his case, the
>organizations decided not to embark on strong sanctions for doping.
>
>On the other hand, European athletes were much less willing or able to
>fight their cases and, in general, it seems much harder to sue and win
>for numerous millions over in Europe. There is also the fact that
>European athletes don't understand their rights, e.g., their claims of
>"proving their innocence" last year. If every cyclist accused of
>doping brought as much effort into challenging the case as landis did,
>then the situation would be impossible. That situation might be
>exactly what would happen in US professional sports started rigorous
>anti-doping measures.

If Floyd's tests had gone to UCLA from an American sports federation there
would've been no announcement of anything until after the B sample had tested
positive and there wouldn't have been anything like the administrative goofs and
technical sloppiness to hang his case on. Look at the case of Justin Gatlin
about the same time - he was facing even more severe penalties.

Draconian penalties combined with grandstanding non-governmental politicians and
sloppy amateurish mistakes in the lab work are what created l'affair Landis and
the rest of cycling's crappy public image.

Ron

Date: 11 Aug 2007 02:29:41
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:dctpb316fl307r8d5sqnuh67bqodo0vnqb@4ax.com...
>
> If Floyd's tests had gone to UCLA from an American sports federation there
> would've been no announcement of anything until after the B sample had
> tested
> positive and there wouldn't have been anything like the administrative
> goofs and
> technical sloppiness to hang his case on. Look at the case of Justin
> Gatlin
> about the same time - he was facing even more severe penalties.
>
> Draconian penalties combined with grandstanding non-governmental
> politicians and
> sloppy amateurish mistakes in the lab work are what created l'affair
> Landis and
> the rest of cycling's crappy public image.

If Floyd's B Sample had been tested in Switzerland there would have been
absolutely no questions about the authenticity of the testing process.

The fact that ASO used the same lab for both tests excluding Floyds observer
is significant.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 13:28:41
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:03:49 -0700, runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:

>Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
>FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
>raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.

Bonds never tested positive for any substance. Unlike cycling, a
positive test is required to suspend a MLB player. Bonds is under
suspicion because of his association with Balco Labs who had produced
a steroid that was undetectable using the methods of that time.
Obviously, Bonds could have been using that steroid and never tested
positive.

If MLB is to suspend Bonds, and wipe his records off the books, they
have to do it by having Bonds implicated by other people testifying
that they saw him uses steroids.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 09:28:19
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 9, 5:42 pm, Geraard Spergen <GSper...@spammagnet.net > wrote:
> runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> > that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> > use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> > Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> > anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> > minute....
>
> No, you pretty much got it.
>
> Missing is the militant Mennonite faction to defend Floyd with cries of
> racism.

I was in a bar the night Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's home run record
and cheered after he hit it. The rest of the bar brooded in silence.
Then after a few seconds, one of the other patrons yelled at me, "the
only problem is they didn't hit that nigger in the head enough." Hank
Aaron got thousands of death threats throughout the summer from racist
fans and put up with threatening phone calls against him and his
family. And they think Barry Bonds has had a problem with racism? I'm
sorry, but I saw real racism during the summer of 1974.

Smokey

Date: 10 Aug 2007 14:06:51
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

Vino was gunned down by the West because his country is Muslim, no?
America is racist.
baseball players are athletes involved in physical development:
athletes bound to the Heartland.
your analysis fails in understanding the planet from the other guys
perspective

Date: 10 Aug 2007 01:53:15
From: Crapton
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

An interesting comparison you bring up ...

Bonds is not regarded as a hero by a large portion of White America.
Baseball itself has not sanctioned him, true, but OTOH he has not
actually failed a drug test. Everybody "knows" he juiced, but proof
acceptable to MLB has so far been lacking. That baseball's PED
enforcement/sanctioning protocols have lagged so far behind cycling's
is absurd, ultimately leading to the specter of Bud ("Bud is here ...
Bud is not here") Selig waffling on whether to attend any SF Giants
games recently.

In pro cycling there are multiple entities, both national and
international, with various levels of interest in (a) cleaning up the
sport, and/or (b) identifying cheaters and proving their guilt. The
effect is one of avid and continuous enforcement, unrestrained by
anything like the baseball player's union. Violations of an
assumption of innocence until proven guilty are common (information
leaks, trail by media).

I read one account that Vino is currently regarded as a hero in
Kazakhstan. This reminds me of earlier accounts of African Americans
thinking that Bonds is a positive figure and a victim of the White
Establishment.

And Muslims in the Mideast thinking that Sept.11 was a Jewish plot.
Not so different, really, in terms of culturally-based distortion.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 09:40:38
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:53:15 -0700, Crapton <erik_crapton2004@yahoo.com > wrote:

>An interesting comparison you bring up ...
>
>Bonds is not regarded as a hero by a large portion of White America.
>Baseball itself has not sanctioned him, true, but OTOH he has not
>actually failed a drug test. Everybody "knows" he juiced, but proof
>acceptable to MLB has so far been lacking. That baseball's PED
>enforcement/sanctioning protocols have lagged so far behind cycling's
>is absurd, ultimately leading to the specter of Bud ("Bud is here ...
>Bud is not here") Selig waffling on whether to attend any SF Giants
>games recently.

At least Bud didn't say stupid crap like it'd be better if he didn't get the
record. There weren't any ballparks that refused to let him play. The other
teams didnt' try to get him blacklisted and kicked off his own team. Nobody
announced dubious test results outside the system. He wasn't singled out for
constant testing and harassment. Nobody is demanding to know where he was every
day and all his training locations. He wasn't left to deal with mobs of
reporters without security and professional PR people.

Ron

Date: 10 Aug 2007 13:14:47
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Crapton" <erik_crapton2004@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1186735995.091314.202480@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bonds is not regarded as a hero by a large portion of White America.

Interesting that racists are everywhere.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 04:14:54
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

Date: 10 Aug 2007 03:41:31
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>
> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>
> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.

Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would improve
his hand-eye coordination? Do you have any idea at all what steroids do?

Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.

> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.

The difference is that there is so much money in baseball that it pays big
time lawyers to sue the National Baseball League into bankruptsy if the
stray from the straight and narrow path regarding the legal rights of
players.

In Floyd's case no pertinent law firm would bother with his problems and the
UCI is mostly under European laws which favor government rights over human
rights.

To you and I a million dollars is a huge sum of money. In baseball that's
hardly considered to be chickenfeed.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 19:58:38
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<L7Rui.15183$zA4.94@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> > the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
> >
> > Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> > am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
> >
> > Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> > Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
> Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would improve
> his hand-eye coordination? Do you have any idea at all what steroids do?
>
> Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
> increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.

Anabolic steroids build muscle mass
and that helps hit the ball further
and throw the ball harder. Also aids
in recovery, allowing an athlete to
be closer to the top of his game for
more extended periods.

Barry Bonds did take anabolic steroids.
<http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2007/05/barry-bonds-chemical-creation.html >
<http://jeromeprophet.blogspot.com/2007/08/barry-bonds-before-and-after-steroids.html >
<http://www.babeslovebaseball.com/2007/05/welcome-to-alleged-juicer-round.html >

--
Michael Press

Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:57:16
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-2FA432.12583810082007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <L7Rui.15183$zA4.94@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> > Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>> > the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>> >
>> > Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>> > am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>> >
>> > Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>> > Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>>
>> Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would
>> improve
>> his hand-eye coordination? Do you have any idea at all what steroids do?
>>
>> Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
>> increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.
>
> Anabolic steroids build muscle mass
> and that helps hit the ball further
> and throw the ball harder. Also aids
> in recovery, allowing an athlete to
> be closer to the top of his game for
> more extended periods.
>
> Barry Bonds did take anabolic steroids.
> <http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2007/05/barry-bonds-chemical-creation.html>
> <http://jeromeprophet.blogspot.com/2007/08/barry-bonds-before-and-after-steroids.html>
> <http://www.babeslovebaseball.com/2007/05/welcome-to-alleged-juicer-round.html>

In the same period of time that Bonds weight changed I went from 145 lbs to
200. My hat size increased from 6 7/8ths to 7 1/4th despite my going bald.
My shoe size went from 11 to 12. I never used any sort of steroids in any
form.

Is it your belief that he "bulked up" somehow more than he could have simply
by lifting weights and getting older?

Date: 10 Aug 2007 16:00:22
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<Mi4vi.13542$tj6.12484@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net
>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-2FA432.12583810082007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> > In article
> > <L7Rui.15183$zA4.94@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >> <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> >> > the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
> >> >
> >> > Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> >> > am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
> >> >
> >> > Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> >> > Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
> >>
> >> Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would
> >> improve
> >> his hand-eye coordination? Do you have any idea at all what steroids do?
> >>
> >> Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
> >> increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.
> >
> > Anabolic steroids build muscle mass
> > and that helps hit the ball further
> > and throw the ball harder. Also aids
> > in recovery, allowing an athlete to
> > be closer to the top of his game for
> > more extended periods.
> >
> > Barry Bonds did take anabolic steroids.
> > <http://hedgehogcentral.blogspot.com/2007/05/barry-bonds-chemical-creation.html>
> > <http://jeromeprophet.blogspot.com/2007/08/barry-bonds-before-and-after-steroids.html>
> > <http://www.babeslovebaseball.com/2007/05/welcome-to-alleged-juicer-round.html>
>
> In the same period of time that Bonds weight changed I went from 145 lbs to
> 200. My hat size increased from 6 7/8ths to 7 1/4th despite my going bald.
> My shoe size went from 11 to 12. I never used any sort of steroids in any
> form.
>
> Is it your belief that he "bulked up" somehow more than he could have simply
> by lifting weights and getting older?

I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.

--
Michael Press

Date: 11 Aug 2007 02:17:30
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>
> I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.

That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been using
steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them up
and not increased their speed.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 23:28:59
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<__8vi.13599$rR.9788@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> >
> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
>
> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been using
> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them up
> and not increased their speed.

Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
enough.

Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
baseball players don't.

--
Michael Press

Date: 12 Aug 2007 08:10:05
From: mal
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> In article
> <__8vi.13599$rR.9788@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>> >
>> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
>>
>> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been
>> using
>> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them
>> up
>> and not increased their speed.
>
> Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> enough.
>
> Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> baseball players don't.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Go to power or weightlifter's site. Speed is incredibly important. Its not
circus dumbbell lifting.

Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:35:58
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<2LGdnQMdKtE7ZSPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"mal" <malcolm1009@comcast.net > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> > In article
> > <__8vi.13599$rR.9788@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >> news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> >> >
> >> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
> >>
> >> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been
> >> using
> >> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them
> >> up
> >> and not increased their speed.
> >
> > Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> > for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> > enough.
> >
> > Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> > on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> > baseball players don't.
>
> Go to power or weightlifter's site. Speed is incredibly important. Its not
> circus dumbbell lifting.

If the lifter does not have the power to move the
weight, he does not have the speed to keep it moving
past the dead spots. This is secondary school physics.
power = force times speed. More muscle means more force
means more speed. _I_ can snatch 25 kilograms, have all
the _speed_ I need. I do not have the speed to snatch
150 kg because I cannot exert the _force_.

Sounds to me the speed of which you speak is technique
and mental preparation.

--
Michael Press

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:05:23
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>
> Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> enough.

Then by all means cite the studies.

> Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> baseball players don't.

What exactly do you know about it?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:56:12
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<Dmjvi.13655$rR.13074@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >
,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> >
> > Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> > for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> > enough.
>
> Then by all means cite the studies.

Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds,
and some others have done studies. They are published
by some professional baseball league in their annual
record book.

> > Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> > on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
> > baseball players don't.
>
> What exactly do you know about it?

Exactly what I said.

--
Michael Press

Date: 11 Aug 2007 09:06:37
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On 08/11/2007 08:05 AM, in article
Dmjvi.13655$rR.13074@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
<cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-E05015.23285910082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
>> for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
>> enough.
>
> Then by all means cite the studies.

http://www.eric.ed.gov:80/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detail
mini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ374335&ERICExtSearch_Sea
rchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ374335

Title: Psychomotor and Motor Speed in Power Athletes Self-Administering
Testosterone and Anabolic Steroids.

Source: Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport, v59 n1 p50-56 Mar 1988

Abstract: Self-administered testosterone and anabolic steroids resulted
in insignificant improvement in psychomotor and motor speed tests of power
athletes. This study is part of a larger study on the effects of such drugs
on endocrinology, metabolism and neuromuscular functions. Methodolgy and
results are discussed. (Author/JL)

So steroids have little, if any effect on speed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstrac
tPlus&list_uids=10710012

1: J Sci Med Sport. 1999 Dec;2(4):341-55.Links
Muscular strength, body composition and health responses to the use of
testosterone enanthate: a double blind study.

Giorgi A, Weatherby RP, Murphy PW.
School of Exercise Science and Sports Management, Southern Cross University,
Lismore, NSW, Australia.

The results from the study revealed that the testosterone/weight training
group improved significantly (p<0.05) more than the placebo/weight training
group during and immediately after the administration phase on a 1
repetition maximum bench press. With regards to body composition, body
weight, arm girth and rectus femoris circumference all increased
significantly greater in the TE group compared to the placebo. Furthermore,
the abdomen skinfold showed significant decreases in the TE group compared
to the placebo group at post testing, follow up mid testing and the follow
up post testing occasions.

Consequently, moderate doses of TE combined with weight training can result
in short term significant changes in upper body strength and body
composition, with corresponding changes to baseline health in some
individuals.

And 'roids have significant effect on upper body strength/power ...

Seems like the perfect drug for a home-run hitter ...

>> Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
>> on speed. Bodybuilders do all kinds of drugs that
>> baseball players don't.
>
> What exactly do you know about it?
>

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:51:06
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote in message
news:C2E32C9D.60735%stevens@veloworks.com...

Steven, why are you quoting studies if you don't understand them? Athletes
being given steroids increased muscle mass and reduced fat percentages
faster than the placebo group IN THE LIMITED TIME OF THE STUDY.

Where in that study did it state that lower body muscle mass wasn't equally
effected? Since steroids effect muscles and the largest muscles in your body
are the glutials, the quads and other lower limb muscles it is unlikely that
the study addressed those.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 04:49:27
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:28:59 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:

>In article
><__8vi.13599$rR.9788@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
>> >
>> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
>>
>> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been using
>> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them up
>> and not increased their speed.
>
>Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
>for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
>enough.
>
>Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
>on speed.

But speed is an important part of Olympic lifting.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:57:58
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article
<fvtqb3tdarufvf5prn53uirov91ra4n1em@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com >
wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:28:59 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><__8vi.13599$rR.9788@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >> news:rubrum-7317EF.16002210082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> >> >
> >> > I am convinced that he used anabolic steroids.
> >>
> >> That still doesn't mean a thing. What's more, weight lifters have been using
> >> steroids for years and in every case they reported bulking up SLOWED them up
> >> and not increased their speed.
> >
> >Anabolic steroids have proven to help power hitters hit
> >for more power. It does not appear to slow them down
> >enough.
> >
> >Weight lifters? Power lifters or posers? Neither depend
> >on speed.
>
> But speed is an important part of Olympic lifting.

Not the kind of speed required to
get around on major league pitching.

--
Michael Press

Date: 10 Aug 2007 09:33:07
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:41:31 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

><runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>
>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>>
>> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
>Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would improve
>his hand-eye coordination?

HGH. That's what I'd use or recommend. But the fact is Barry has always had the
eye and hand speed to connect. Being able to connect with a little more muscle
is all it takes sometimes. Imagine if Ozzie Smith got steroids, he'd have gone
from being a guy "you can knock the bat from his hands with a well thrown ball"
to an actual home run threat.

>Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
>increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.

It is if you've already got the other tools to hit a major league pitch. There
are damn few people who have those skills and gifts, if you add muscle then it
gets scary.

>> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
>> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
>> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>
>The difference is that there is so much money in baseball that it pays big
>time lawyers to sue the National Baseball League into bankruptsy if the
>stray from the straight and narrow path regarding the legal rights of
>players.

MLB also knows that would be counterproductive, so they only apply reasonable
penalties and follow their own damn procedures.

Ron

Date: 10 Aug 2007 15:35:15
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

Date: 10 Aug 2007 12:42:05
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:35:15 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

>"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:lupob390qdqo5hl9jrqvma6ftod3urk0g0@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:41:31 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>><runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>>>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>>>
>>>Let's assume that Bonds did take steroids - all it would do would be to
>>>increase his muscle mass. That ain't what gives you home runs.
>>
>> It is if you've already got the other tools to hit a major league pitch.
>> There
>> are damn few people who have those skills and gifts, if you add muscle
>> then it
>> gets scary.
>
>So perhaps we ought to outlaw weight training then?

Malignant dumbass -

There are so many thousands of things in this world that deserve argument, there
is no need to reach for an argument.

Ron

Date: 10 Aug 2007 15:34:00
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:lupob390qdqo5hl9jrqvma6ftod3urk0g0@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:41:31 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> wrote:
>
>><runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>>
>>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>>>
>>> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>>> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>>
>>Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would
>>improve
>>his hand-eye coordination?
>
> HGH. That's what I'd use or recommend.

I find that pretty hilarious considering the fact that there is a lot of
research concerning growth hormone since there are a dozen fairly common
conditions that are treated with growth hormones.

What HAS been found: Given to growth hormone deficient children during their
normal growing periods it has been shown to increase their heights but not
by much. (2-3 inches). Given to senior citizens who naturally manufacture
very little growth hormone it has been found to STATISTICALLY increase lean
body mass and retain bone density while controls are losing both. It has
also been used for MS patients without any agreement whether or not it has
had any effect.

There are also a load of problems caused by excessive growth hormone in
normal people.

If someone wants to take growth hormone, more power to them. But they
shouldn't be allowed any public medical support when the side effects
cripple them.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 12:39:51
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:34:00 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

>"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:lupob390qdqo5hl9jrqvma6ftod3urk0g0@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:41:31 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>><runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1186697029.282678.125640@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>>>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>>>
>>>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>>>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>>>>
>>>> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>>>> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>>>
>>>Exactly what is it that you believe that Barry Bonds did that would
>>>improve
>>>his hand-eye coordination?
>>
>> HGH. That's what I'd use or recommend.
>
>I find that pretty hilarious considering the fact that there is a lot of
>research concerning growth hormone since there are a dozen fairly common
>conditions that are treated with growth hormones.
>
>What HAS been found: Given to growth hormone deficient children during their
>normal growing periods it has been shown to increase their heights but not
>by much. (2-3 inches). Given to senior citizens who naturally manufacture
>very little growth hormone it has been found to STATISTICALLY increase lean
>body mass and retain bone density while controls are losing both. It has
>also been used for MS patients without any agreement whether or not it has
>had any effect.
>
>There are also a load of problems caused by excessive growth hormone in
>normal people.
>
>If someone wants to take growth hormone, more power to them. But they
>shouldn't be allowed any public medical support when the side effects
>cripple them.

malignant dumbass -

You asked what Bonds might have done and I answered. You did not ask whether it
was a good idea or whether it was something that should be recommended to all.

Ron

Date: 10 Aug 2007 03:02:17
From:
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 9, 6:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>
> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>
> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>
> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....

For one thing baseball isn't an Olympic sport, so there is not the
drug testing that goes with it.
By that I mean, that no one in baseball cares who won the Olympics.
For example, this was the case in snowboarding
(artistic, like half-pipe) in which they were all getting busted for
non performance enhancing drugs like marijuana and
they actually didn't care if they were banned from the Olympics, they
had their own events and many of them thought
the Olympics were ridiculous.

Otherwise, you are correct that there is a hysterical reaction to
doping in cycling with a lot of people in
positions of authority losing their head. As you point out, that is
not true for US professional sports, though
there are other more important things in the US where people in
positions of authority became hysterical and
lost their heads, with a lot more serious consequences.

-ilan

Date: 09 Aug 2007 16:23:49
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 9, 5:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....

It's been a lot longer than a minute <g >.

That in context with alleged (and probably real) dangers of steroid
use for young people, especially women.

(As the question has been asked here, "When does a young player start
doping so he can make it in the Bigs?")

Something that needs more introspection than a well-lubricated seventh-
inning stretch will likely provide.

Scapegoating little sports that can't or won't fight back. How human!

Well, when the reformers are crooked, what can be expected? --D-y

Date: 09 Aug 2007 16:22:14
From:
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

> present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.

This is very interesting. Don't they try to improve the material that
the bat and the ball are made of? Like, to make the bat swing stronger
and the ball fly further? Not as much freedom for engineering as in
cycling, but still...

Date: 10 Aug 2007 13:18:28
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

Date: 09 Aug 2007 21:51:19
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:22:14 -0700, runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:

>> present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.
>
>This is very interesting. Don't they try to improve the material that
>the bat and the ball are made of? Like, to make the bat swing stronger
>and the ball fly further? Not as much freedom for engineering as in
>cycling, but still...

No freedom in engineering is permitted whatever. The bat is wood, one piece,
solid, within certain critical dimensions. The balls are made to a league spec,
handled and prepared for play by the umpires before the game and issued into
play as needed according to his discretion and judgment if a player requests a
new ball. Altering a ball is a major infraction.

Every once in a while there's a change in how the balls are made and it causes a
fuss. At one time they were made in Haiti by women paid piecework. The one who
did the final stitching got $1 per dozen and typically made $4 a day. The
politics of Haiti went further into hell and production was shipped to another
country where stronger, better fed hands produced a harder, livelier ball that
travelled further. Fans will discuss the "dead ball era" and other minutiae.

Anyway, the dimensions of the diamond are near perfection in balancing a man's
throw against anothers running speed. They adjust the pitchers mound a few
inches every few decades depending on whether too many batters or pitchers are
winning and each team will try to match their home park to their players and
vice versa.

Some things do change, those wood bats are usually a lot lighter than they were
50 years ago and the players wear spandex. But most of the competitive balance
remains the same as ever.

Ron

Date: 09 Aug 2007 18:35:32
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:
>> present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.
>
> This is very interesting. Don't they try to improve the material that
> the bat and the ball are made of? Like, to make the bat swing stronger
> and the ball fly further? Not as much freedom for engineering as in
> cycling, but still...
>
>
Major League bats are still made of the same type of wood that was used
decades ago. Specifications for baseballs have changed several times.
They talk of the "dead ball" era, the "live ball" era, etc., referring
to the tendency of a baseball that is well hit to fly lesser or greater
distances. We're definitely in a "live ball" cycle now, with the home
run being baseball's key hit. Teams still try to advance base runners,
"play the percentages" (which are often wrong from what I've read),
etc., but having some big guy come to the plate and swing for the fences
seems to be "where it's at" these days.

The last player who could hit for a high batting average and with power
was Ted Williams, who missed about five seasons during his prime because
he served in WWII and Korea. He might have matched or passed Babe Ruth
otherwise....

Batting is essentially a contest between the batter's reaction time and
the pitcher's accuracy, trickery, and speed. It is my unexplored and
unsupported theory that the advantage has swung toward pitchers as
people have grown bigger, stronger, better trained, and better
conditioned. I don't think reaction time has improved at all, but more
pitchers can throw faster pitches.

Examples:
Nolan Ryan pitched for 27 seasons, won 324 games, struck out 5714
batters, and threw 7 no hit games.
Roger Clemens is in his 24th season, has over 4600 strikeouts, has won
352+ games, and is still an overpowering pitcher.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 23:32:18
From: sl
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

In article <46bbc0f8$0$8918$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Colin Campbell <cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
>runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.
>>
>> This is very interesting. Don't they try to improve the material that
>> the bat and the ball are made of? Like, to make the bat swing stronger
>> and the ball fly further? Not as much freedom for engineering as in
>> cycling, but still...
>>
>>
>Major League bats are still made of the same type of wood that was used
>decades ago. Specifications for baseballs have changed several times.
>They talk of the "dead ball" era, the "live ball" era, etc., referring
>to the tendency of a baseball that is well hit to fly lesser or greater
>distances. We're definitely in a "live ball" cycle now, with the home
>run being baseball's key hit. Teams still try to advance base runners,
>"play the percentages" (which are often wrong from what I've read),
>etc., but having some big guy come to the plate and swing for the fences
>seems to be "where it's at" these days.

This article identifies some of the ways (over above steroids) that
Bonds has improved his hitting:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columnists/story.html?id=e28d660c-bf11-4129-8c0e-6e097c5c0980

>The last player who could hit for a high batting average and with power
>was Ted Williams, who missed about five seasons during his prime because
>he served in WWII and Korea. He might have matched or passed Babe Ruth
>otherwise....
>
>Batting is essentially a contest between the batter's reaction time and
>the pitcher's accuracy, trickery, and speed. It is my unexplored and
>unsupported theory that the advantage has swung toward pitchers as
>people have grown bigger, stronger, better trained, and better
>conditioned. I don't think reaction time has improved at all, but more
>pitchers can throw faster pitches.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 16:18:34
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Aug 9, 3:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>
> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>
> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>
> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>
> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....

---------------
I think the doping is just as big a threat to baseball, as it has
destroyed cycling. Baseball is a game of statistics, past and
present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.
But if doping warps the statistics, and changes the play in a
significant way, it could eventually destroy the game.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 23:37:32
From: _
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:18:34 -0700, Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:

> On Aug 9, 3:03 pm, runcyclexc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Listening to a local radiostation talk show right now, discussing if
>> the justice system is "too hard" on Barry Bonds.
>>
>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>>
>> Both Bonds and Flyod allegedly did drugs.
>> Both Bonds and Flyod are ones of the best athletes of their lifetime.
>>
>> Bonds continues playing, being paid millions, and being a hero, while
>> FLyod's carreer is ruined, he has a stigma of a cheater and has to
>> raise money to get lawyers to defend himself.
>>
>> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
>> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
>> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
>> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
>> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
>> minute....
>
> ---------------
> I think the doping is just as big a threat to baseball, as it has
> destroyed cycling. Baseball is a game of statistics, past and
> present. A game played in 1948 is equal to a game played in 2007.
> But if doping warps the statistics, and changes the play in a
> significant way, it could eventually destroy the game.

And the number of games per season...

Date: 09 Aug 2007 23:04:32
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
........
> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....

And where *are* you from? Let's say it's somewhere in the majority of the
world where soccer is king. How often do you see examples made of soccer
players? How often do you see people re-writing the stories about past
legends when it became known what went on?

You're not missing anything at all. You've nailed it head-on. There is a
direct relationship between the popularity and money in a sport and the
WADA's ability (or inability) to make an issue of doping.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Date: 09 Aug 2007 21:38:24
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:04:32 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:

>> Please explain it to me. I am not from this country originally and I
>> am not a fan of baseball, so I may be missing something.
>........
>> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
>> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
>> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
>> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
>> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
>> minute....
>
>And where *are* you from? Let's say it's somewhere in the majority of the
>world where soccer is king. How often do you see examples made of soccer
>players? How often do you see people re-writing the stories about past
>legends when it became known what went on?
>
>You're not missing anything at all. You've nailed it head-on. There is a
>direct relationship between the popularity and money in a sport and the
>WADA's ability (or inability) to make an issue of doping.

All true, but let's take note of the absolute muddle that the sanctioning bodies
have made of the issue in cycling. MLB came to doping enforcement only recently
but have never made the hideous self-defacing blunders that cycling has. MLB
protects the image and value of the sport, they haven't got angels out there and
they know it and act accordingly. The players know exactly what to expect in
rules and enforcement and generally abide. When there is a violation it's
handled by the book with a yawn at the press conference and life goes on.

Ron

Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:42:34
From: Geraard Spergen
Subject: Re: Bonds-baseball vs Landis-cycling

runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:

> Am I missing something? Apparently if a guy is involved in a sport
> that everyone in this country cares about it suddenly becomes OK to
> use drugs. Same thing with nordic skiing in the 2002 winter olympics.
> Hey, who cares about cycling and nordic skiing, they are all on drugs
> anyway, let's screw them all. But if it's baseball - hey, wait a
> minute....
>

No, you pretty much got it.

Missing is the militant Mennonite faction to defend Floyd with cries of
racism.