Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

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Date: 08 Apr 2007 04:56:50
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07

Dang.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 12 Apr 2007 18:25:41
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 12, 6:16 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> In article <Xns9910730B8ADB5Fkldel...@130.133.1.4>,
> William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > I was the first in my family to walk upright.
>
> > That's because you were the first to throw off the shackles of government
> > oppression and breathe the sweet air of true freedom and elightenment.
> > Genetics can only go so far.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7EZQ4BVyw

http://alina_stefanescu.typepad.com/totalitarianism_today/2007/03/make_mine_freed.html

get a lift:
http://www.trampe.no/english/photogallery.php

Date: 12 Apr 2007 13:32:49
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 8:53 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 23:10:55 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>
> <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
> >seem to slow him down much.
>
> Well, Ballan has won a monumental classic with that position,
> something Lance wasnt' able to do. And both rode classics about the
> same amount of time. All else being equal, aero is better in racing.

dumbass,

he'll be awesome when he gets a bike that fits.

Date: 14 Apr 2007 02:29:38
From: Nev Shea
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in
news:1176409969.133780.223870@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

> On Apr 8, 8:53 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 23:10:55 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>>
>> <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop.
>> >Didn't seem to slow him down much.
>>
>> Well, Ballan has won a monumental classic with that position,
>> something Lance wasnt' able to do. And both rode classics about the
>> same amount of time. All else being equal, aero is better in racing.
>
> dumbass,
>
> he'll be awesome when he gets a bike that fits.

dumbass,

he'll be even awesomer if he climbs at 90 RPM like LANCE, and even more
awesomer if he also points his toes down like Anquetil.

NS
CTS coach

Date: 12 Apr 2007 10:50:29
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 10, 12:31 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> On Apr 9, 5:28 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You expect me to read??!! I was just looking at
> > the pretty pictures. Then I got distracted by
> > something shiny.
>
> > Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
> > masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
> > rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
> > on a Sunday ride.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> If you're doing 400 miles/week, the roads aren't so great and you
> don't like stuff breaking, those 36 spoke wheels are mighty nice. So
> is the thick rubber. Plus, his racing bike and training bike are
> almost surely not the same bike.

oz-wee-pay,

You make me feel like a pro. They are stealing all my intellectual
property by imitating me.

> The Masters Fattie wheels are very good for guys who "race" their
> Fellow Fat Buddies on Sunday. Good for the ego, good for the soul.

You sound like an expert.

Date: 12 Apr 2007 10:44:24
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 12, 7:30 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Apr 12, 9:55 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Apr 9, 2:24 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> > >wrote:
> > >> On Apr 8, 4:10 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> > >> > > the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> > >> > > that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> > >> > > position effectively.
>
> > >> > Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
> > >> > seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
> > >> > position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
> > >> > used a lot more drop then.
>
> > >> This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?
>
> > >> Seriously, late-period LANCE had to ride fast in TTs
> > >> (different position) and uphill (low position less
> > >> important). Also, Ballan is about 6'3". Tall people
> > >> often have a larger bar to saddle drop, even tall
> > >> masters fatties.
>
> > >And skinny flat chested (broad?) tall guys who are flexible can have
> > >huge differences in saddle to bar height. Thigh to chest/abdomen
> > >contact is big factor in limiting the amount of drop possible. His
> > >skinny legs and not very accute knee angle (due to leg length and
> > >crank length) make this possible. Look at a guy like Johan Van
> > >Summeren compared to somebody like Salvatore Commesso and you can see
> > >this in the extreme.
>
> > Tall guys tend to have longer arms relative to their height also. I'm also 6'2
> > have a 6'6 wingspan and my bars are amazingly low for a fat, out of shape 50
> > year old. Look at my bike without me on it and they look like a serious racer's
> > setup. Look at the bike with me on it and you say, "dang, that fat guy's got
> > long arms."
>
> dumbass,
>
> you're not the only knuckle-dragger on rbr.- Hide quoted text -

I was the first in my family to walk upright.

Date: 12 Apr 2007 18:19:24
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:

<snip >
>
> I was the first in my family to walk upright.
>

That's because you were the first to throw off the shackles of government
oppression and breathe the sweet air of true freedom and elightenment.
Genetics can only go so far.

--
Bill Asher

Date: 13 Apr 2007 01:22:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

In article <Xns9910730B8ADB5FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4 >,
William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:

> SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I was the first in my family to walk upright.
> >
>
> That's because you were the first to throw off the shackles of government
> oppression and breathe the sweet air of true freedom and elightenment.

Marlene DuChard: And it is a thousand candles that will
burn for every brave soldier that marches to the steps
of the drums of liberty, so that tyranny will never
trample the spirit of freedom in the hearts of men,
throughout a world thrown into darkness and despair.

Colonel Schlissel: Well spoken--whatever it means. Ah,
may I present Miss DeBoop, like yourself a well-built
exile?

Betty DeBoop: Hi, honey. Don't let the Heinie get you down.

Marlene DuChard: It is despots and tyrants who run our
rivers red with the colors of a hundred trampled flags
that unfurl in the winds of liberty, blowing over
centuries of deprivation...

Paul DuChard: It's all right, darling, we made our point.

Marlene DuChard: ...where men who have known treachery
and treason can still light torches in the caves of
honor...

--
Michael Press

Date: 12 Apr 2007 18:16:45
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

Date: 13 Apr 2007 16:36:32
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

Howard Kveck wrote:

> In article <Xns9910730B8ADB5FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4>,
> William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> >
>> > I was the first in my family to walk upright.
>> >
>>
>> That's because you were the first to throw off the shackles of
>> government oppression and breathe the sweet air of true freedom and
>> elightenment. Genetics can only go so far.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7EZQ4BVyw
>

This thread has gotten silly.

--
Bill Asher

Date: 13 Apr 2007 15:15:23
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

In article <Xns99116199B6DDEFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4 >,
William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns9910730B8ADB5FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4>,
> > William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >> >
> >> > I was the first in my family to walk upright.
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's because you were the first to throw off the shackles of
> >> government oppression and breathe the sweet air of true freedom and
> >> elightenment. Genetics can only go so far.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7EZQ4BVyw
> >
>
> This thread has gotten silly.

So what else is new?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 12 Apr 2007 07:30:28
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 12, 9:55 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 9, 2:24 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> >wrote:
> >> On Apr 8, 4:10 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> >> > > the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> >> > > that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> >> > > position effectively.
>
> >> > Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
> >> > seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
> >> > position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
> >> > used a lot more drop then.
>
> >> This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?
>
> >> Seriously, late-period LANCE had to ride fast in TTs
> >> (different position) and uphill (low position less
> >> important). Also, Ballan is about 6'3". Tall people
> >> often have a larger bar to saddle drop, even tall
> >> masters fatties.
>
> >And skinny flat chested (broad?) tall guys who are flexible can have
> >huge differences in saddle to bar height. Thigh to chest/abdomen
> >contact is big factor in limiting the amount of drop possible. His
> >skinny legs and not very accute knee angle (due to leg length and
> >crank length) make this possible. Look at a guy like Johan Van
> >Summeren compared to somebody like Salvatore Commesso and you can see
> >this in the extreme.
>
> Tall guys tend to have longer arms relative to their height also. I'm also 6'2
> have a 6'6 wingspan and my bars are amazingly low for a fat, out of shape 50
> year old. Look at my bike without me on it and they look like a serious racer's
> setup. Look at the bike with me on it and you say, "dang, that fat guy's got
> long arms."

dumbass,

you're not the only knuckle-dragger on rbr.

Date: 10 Apr 2007 00:31:34
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 9, 5:28 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
>
> You expect me to read??!! I was just looking at
> the pretty pictures. Then I got distracted by
> something shiny.
>
> Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
> masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
> rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
> on a Sunday ride.

Dumbass -

If you're doing 400 miles/week, the roads aren't so great and you
don't like stuff breaking, those 36 spoke wheels are mighty nice. So
is the thick rubber. Plus, his racing bike and training bike are
almost surely not the same bike.

The Masters Fattie wheels are very good for guys who "race" their
Fellow Fat Buddies on Sunday. Good for the ego, good for the soul.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Date: 09 Apr 2007 23:53:43
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 10, 2:28 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Apr 9, 3:07 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On 9 Apr 2007 11:33:29 -0700, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
>
> > >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
> > contradiction.
>
> > >While we were pissing and moaning about the bar height,
> > >Dan Connelly pointed out on r.b.tech that Ballan's bike
> > >has good old 36 spoke wheels for the Ronde.
>
> > Read the article -- he used 36-spoke wheels for training. In racing,
> > it's faster material.
>
> You expect me to read??!! I was just looking at
> the pretty pictures. Then I got distracted by
> something shiny.
>
> Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
> masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
> rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
> on a Sunday ride.
>
> Ben

This is by no means limited to US fm's. Globalization and all.

Joseph

Date: 10 Apr 2007 09:21:10
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 9 Apr 2007 23:53:43 -0700, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 10, 2:28 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" wrote:
>> Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
>> masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
>> rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
>> on a Sunday ride.
>
> This is by no means limited to US fm's. Globalization and all.

When I rode with Boogerd, I told him off for the wobble in his wheel
and the frame pump not fitting. If we ever meet again, I will tell him
to finally, after 10 years of pro helmet rule, get a fitting helmet.

--
E. Dronkert

Date: 10 Apr 2007 12:20:31
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> When I rode with Boogerd, I told him off for the wobble in his wheel
> and the frame pump not fitting. If we ever meet again, I will tell him
> to finally, after 10 years of pro helmet rule, get a fitting helmet.

You mean you're not going to tell him to get his sprint up to your
standard.

Date: 09 Apr 2007 17:28:01
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 9, 3:07 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2007 11:33:29 -0700, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
>
> >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
> contradiction.
>
> >While we were pissing and moaning about the bar height,
> >Dan Connelly pointed out on r.b.tech that Ballan's bike
> >has good old 36 spoke wheels for the Ronde.
>
> Read the article -- he used 36-spoke wheels for training. In racing,
> it's faster material.

You expect me to read??!! I was just looking at
the pretty pictures. Then I got distracted by
something shiny.

Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
on a Sunday ride.

Ben

Date: 10 Apr 2007 01:47:50
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Apr 9, 3:07 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>> On 9 Apr 2007 11:33:29 -0700, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
>>
>>>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>> contradiction.
>>
>>> While we were pissing and moaning about the bar height,
>>> Dan Connelly pointed out on r.b.tech that Ballan's bike
>>> has good old 36 spoke wheels for the Ronde.
>> Read the article -- he used 36-spoke wheels for training. In racing,
>> it's faster material.
>
> You expect me to read??!! I was just looking at
> the pretty pictures. Then I got distracted by
> something shiny.
>
> Still, he trains on wheels that the average US
> masters fattie (or even a strictly recreational
> rider) might now be ashamed to show up with
> on a Sunday ride.

That is entirely appropriate. The average US masters
fattie rides with national and world champions all
the time. I'll bet Ballan hardly ever does.

Bob Schwartz

Date: 09 Apr 2007 14:10:21
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 9, 2:24 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:10 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> > > the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> > > that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> > > position effectively.
>
> > Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
> > seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
> > position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
> > used a lot more drop then.
>
> This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?
>
> Seriously, late-period LANCE had to ride fast in TTs
> (different position) and uphill (low position less
> important). Also, Ballan is about 6'3". Tall people
> often have a larger bar to saddle drop, even tall
> masters fatties.

And skinny flat chested (broad?) tall guys who are flexible can have
huge differences in saddle to bar height. Thigh to chest/abdomen
contact is big factor in limiting the amount of drop possible. His
skinny legs and not very accute knee angle (due to leg length and
crank length) make this possible. Look at a guy like Johan Van
Summeren compared to somebody like Salvatore Commesso and you can see
this in the extreme.

Joseph

> Unlike Ballan and LANCE, the rest of us amateurs and MFs
> aren't young, flexible, or spending the post-race part
> of the day getting massages and stretching, so while their
> bar positions may be enviable, they can't be directly
> compared to a good fit for the average amateur or fat
> master.
>
> Ben

Date: 12 Apr 2007 09:55:17
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 9 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Apr 9, 2:24 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
>wrote:
>> On Apr 8, 4:10 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > > I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
>> > > the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
>> > > that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
>> > > position effectively.
>>
>> > Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
>> > seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
>> > position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
>> > used a lot more drop then.
>>
>> This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?
>>
>> Seriously, late-period LANCE had to ride fast in TTs
>> (different position) and uphill (low position less
>> important). Also, Ballan is about 6'3". Tall people
>> often have a larger bar to saddle drop, even tall
>> masters fatties.
>
>And skinny flat chested (broad?) tall guys who are flexible can have
>huge differences in saddle to bar height. Thigh to chest/abdomen
>contact is big factor in limiting the amount of drop possible. His
>skinny legs and not very accute knee angle (due to leg length and
>crank length) make this possible. Look at a guy like Johan Van
>Summeren compared to somebody like Salvatore Commesso and you can see
>this in the extreme.

Tall guys tend to have longer arms relative to their height also. I'm also 6'2
have a 6'6 wingspan and my bars are amazingly low for a fat, out of shape 50
year old. Look at my bike without me on it and they look like a serious racer's
setup. Look at the bike with me on it and you say, "dang, that fat guy's got
long arms."

Ron

Ron

Effect pedal demo's up at http://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry

Date: 10 Apr 2007 15:34:04
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1176153020.963875.122410@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> And skinny flat chested (broad?) tall guys who are flexible can have
> huge differences in saddle to bar height. Thigh to chest/abdomen
> contact is big factor in limiting the amount of drop possible. His
> skinny legs and not very accute knee angle (due to leg length and
> crank length) make this possible. Look at a guy like Johan Van
> Summeren compared to somebody like Salvatore Commesso and you can see
> this in the extreme.

That doesn't make that superflat position aero. If you look at the TT
positions of most of the riders they aren't flat at all but are somewhat
upright.

Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:33:29
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 6:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <p...@vecchios.com >
wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> > Dang.
>
> Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
> contradiction.

While we were pissing and moaning about the bar height,
Dan Connelly pointed out on r.b.tech that Ballan's bike
has good old 36 spoke wheels for the Ronde. Do you like
him better now, Peter?

Ben

Date: 09 Apr 2007 18:07:08
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 9 Apr 2007 11:33:29 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:

>On Apr 8, 6:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <p...@vecchios.com>
>wrote:
>> On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>>
>> > Dang.
>>
>> Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
>> contradiction.
>
>While we were pissing and moaning about the bar height,
>Dan Connelly pointed out on r.b.tech that Ballan's bike
>has good old 36 spoke wheels for the Ronde.

Read the article -- he used 36-spoke wheels for training. In racing,
it's faster material.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 08 Apr 2007 17:24:17
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 4:10 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>
> > I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> > the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> > that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> > position effectively.
>
> Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
> seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
> position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
> used a lot more drop then.

This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?

Seriously, late-period LANCE had to ride fast in TTs
(different position) and uphill (low position less
important). Also, Ballan is about 6'3". Tall people
often have a larger bar to saddle drop, even tall
masters fatties.

Unlike Ballan and LANCE, the rest of us amateurs and MFs
aren't young, flexible, or spending the post-race part
of the day getting massages and stretching, so while their
bar positions may be enviable, they can't be directly
compared to a good fit for the average amateur or fat
master.

Ben

Date: 08 Apr 2007 20:54:52
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 8 Apr 2007 17:24:17 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:

>This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?

For a few years.

But your point is right -- Lance was most competitive in the hillier
classics -- Fleche Wallone (won it), Liege-Bastogne-Liege (two top
fives I think) and Amstel Gold (which is only a little hiller than
Flanders).

--
JT
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Date: 10 Apr 2007 15:32:02
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:qk3j13dnvd9s8rrrbnlg6461kl5ibmstbc@4ax.com...
> On 8 Apr 2007 17:24:17 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
> <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>
>>This LANCE you speak of - was he a classics rider?
>
> For a few years.
>
> But your point is right -- Lance was most competitive in the hillier
> classics -- Fleche Wallone (won it), Liege-Bastogne-Liege (two top
> fives I think) and Amstel Gold (which is only a little hiller than
> Flanders).

Actually, bj nailed it. Lance used a very aero position on his TT bike and
that was checked endlessly with wind tunnel research. In the important Tour
stages he was climbing and a good climbing position is a lot more upright.
Then on the fast flat stages he was protected from the wind by his team.

Ballan doesn't have those advantages but nevertheless that sort of seat/bar
drop has got to be counterproductive unless he has abnormally long arms.

Date: 08 Apr 2007 13:05:43
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 7:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2007 06:16:14 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
>
> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> >> Dang.
> >Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
> >contradiction.
>
> Ballan rides that position to very good effect. I sure couldn't come
> close to that.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

And I'm sure he would ride as well with the difference between the
hbars and saddle 1/2 of what it is..NOT really my point. You see so
many Euro racers with long, long stems, =big differences between hbars
and saddle and then the bars rotated back, with levers way up in the
air, so they can reach them.

Team mate of Merckx once said, "eddy can win on my bike, I can't win
on his'...

Date: 08 Apr 2007 16:11:40
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 8 Apr 2007 13:05:43 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:

>And I'm sure he would ride as well with the difference between the
>hbars and saddle 1/2 of what it is..NOT really my point. You see so
>many Euro racers with long, long stems, =big differences between hbars
>and saddle and then the bars rotated back, with levers way up in the
>air, so they can reach them.

I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
position effectively.

--
JT
****************************
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 12:47:49
From: Steve Freides
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:20ji139js1daq3nl65asfcti7c0rbg5m5b@4ax.com...
> On 8 Apr 2007 13:05:43 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>>And I'm sure he would ride as well with the difference between the
>>hbars and saddle 1/2 of what it is..NOT really my point. You see so
>>many Euro racers with long, long stems, =big differences between hbars
>>and saddle and then the bars rotated back, with levers way up in the
>>air, so they can reach them.
>
> I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> position effectively.

Dr. Stuart McGill, author of

http://www.backfitpro.com/ultbackbook.htm

uses the term "self-selecting" to describe those in professional cycling
who can ride in this kind of position. He's got photo's of Greg LeMond
on his bike that I believe are from that famous TdF's final time trial
as an example, and certainly many riders since manage to get even more
bent over than that.

Me, I do fine riding in that kind of position. It's getting up from the
sofa the next day that's the killer. :)

The book linked to above is, in the opinion of this owner of a bad back,
about the best thing out there when it comes to talking about what makes
and keeps a back healthy for athletics in general, but he's no fan of
cycling in this sort of riding position, that's for sure.

-S-

>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

Date: 10 Apr 2007 15:40:51
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com > wrote in message
news:57v8tvF2e45t5U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> Me, I do fine riding in that kind of position. It's getting up from the
> sofa the next day that's the killer. :)

When you're racing and the pack really picks up speed you'll find yourself
trying to get into your most efficient position. This PROBABLY won't be the
lowest and flatest back position.

Date: 13 Apr 2007 16:47:18
From: Antti Salonen
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> When you're racing and the pack really picks up speed you'll find yourself
> trying to get into your most efficient position. This PROBABLY won't be the
> lowest and flatest back position.

If you're smart, you'll find yourself trying to get into your FASTEST
position. That's always somewhere between the lowest and the most
efficient position. It's a compromise.

Antti

Date: 08 Apr 2007 23:10:55
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

>>And I'm sure he would ride as well with the difference between the
>>hbars and saddle 1/2 of what it is..NOT really my point. You see so
>>many Euro racers with long, long stems, =big differences between hbars
>>and saddle and then the bars rotated back, with levers way up in the
>>air, so they can reach them.
>
> I think he would be worse with the bars higher. I've seen pictures of
> the guy riding on the drops and he is very aerodynamic. At 25mph+,
> that's an advantage. But not everyone is flexible to use that kind of
> position effectively.

Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
seem to slow him down much. What might be interesting is to check his "old"
position, back in the day (when he was more of a sprinter), and see if he
used a lot more drop then.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 08 Apr 2007 20:53:27
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 23:10:55 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:

>Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
>seem to slow him down much.

Well, Ballan has won a monumental classic with that position,
something Lance wasnt' able to do. And both rode classics about the
same amount of time. All else being equal, aero is better in racing.
--
JT
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:00:27
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:ug3j13h3gc21aqq6rv3i2ferebkd5ueqd0@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 23:10:55 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Or needs to. Lance certainly didn't ride with an aggressive drop. Didn't
>>seem to slow him down much.
>
> Well, Ballan has won a monumental classic with that position,
> something Lance wasnt' able to do. And both rode classics about the
> same amount of time. All else being equal, aero is better in racing.
> --
> JT

Based on my long-past years as a race official, a few observations may
still have some credence today.

Huge advances have been made in equipment since I last stood on a start line
as chief ref. My son, at age 40, still races and some of his equipment is
absolutely amazing. He just sold his Pinarello magnesium frame to ride his
team issue frame. His Campy Bora wheels survived a crash in Indio last
weekend that would have "potato chipped" any wheels from the past!
Incredible advances in both material and aerodynamics of equipment.

But...

No advances in the design of the human body. Ballan's bike looks "normal"
to me for a guy who is around 6'4", if I'm translating his height in meters
to feet and inhces accurately. Compound that by the fact that all 6'4"
human frames are not created equal. Some guys have very very long legs.
Others have more traditional trunk-to-leg height distribution. But in ALL
cases, with guys that tall, if they're going to be competitive at the most
elite levels, they have to do everything in their power to push their bodies
into the most aerodynamic race position possible. For them, it's their
"norm." They don't even think about it. It's just something they've had to
do since they started racing. The ONLY time it's a problem is in a team
time trial if the other riders are much shorter. Makes drafting off them
easy for the short guy, but nearly impossible for them when they're behind a
very short guy. But it's better than no draft at all...

Caroline

Date: 10 Apr 2007 15:37:28
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

"Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com > wrote in message
news:f1pSh.11534$op4.7651@trnddc08...
>
> No advances in the design of the human body. Ballan's bike looks "normal"
> to me for a guy who is around 6'4", if I'm translating his height in
> meters to feet and inhces accurately. Compound that by the fact that all
> 6'4" human frames are not created equal. Some guys have very very long
> legs. Others have more traditional trunk-to-leg height distribution. But
> in ALL cases, with guys that tall, if they're going to be competitive at
> the most elite levels, they have to do everything in their power to push
> their bodies into the most aerodynamic race position possible.

I keep hearing about guys 6'4" that have long legs but in my experience most
have slightly shorter than normal legs.

The real limitation on tall riders is the power to weight ratio. Getting
bigger doesn't make muscle fibers any stronger.

Date: 08 Apr 2007 10:08:47
From:
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 9:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2007 06:16:14 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
>
> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> >> Dang.
> >Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
> >contradiction.
>
> Ballan rides that position to very good effect. I sure couldn't come
> close to that.

Ahem, I think that comment says something.

Date: 08 Apr 2007 07:31:21
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 3:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> Dang.

I predict a surge in popularity for this setup.

Happy Easter.

--D-y

Date: 08 Apr 2007 14:21:05
From: ST
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 4/8/07 1:56 AM, in article 2hbh13pmtr0qjlrq0epq4n8nranpsmqc07@4ax.com,
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:

> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> Dang.

That is how racers really set up their bike.......

Not this masters shit with stems pointing up in the air and bar setups where
it is not comfortable to get in the drops

Date: 08 Apr 2007 10:32:07
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:21:05 GMT, ST <no@no.com > wrote:

>On 4/8/07 1:56 AM, in article 2hbh13pmtr0qjlrq0epq4n8nranpsmqc07@4ax.com,
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>>
>> Dang.
>
>That is how racers really set up their bike.......
>
>Not this masters shit with stems pointing up in the air and bar setups where
>it is not comfortable to get in the drops

Steve. Nice of you to mock the masters. How slow are you?
--
JT
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 06:16:14
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> Dang.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
contradiction.

Date: 08 Apr 2007 16:31:06
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

Dans le message de
news:1176038174.696532.302930@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>>
>> Dang.
>> --
>> JT
>> ****************************
>> Remove "remove" to reply
>> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
>> ****************************
>
> Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
> contradiction.

Those were your words to him at the end of today's race?
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Date: 08 Apr 2007 09:27:22
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Can you maybe get the bars a little lower?

On 8 Apr 2007 06:16:14 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:

>On Apr 8, 2:56 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>>
>> Dang.
>Watching some of these Euros-'bike fit' and 'Euro racer' seem to be a
>contradiction.

Ballan rides that position to very good effect. I sure couldn't come
close to that.
--
JT
****************************
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