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Main
Date: 25 May 2007 04:00:15
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
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From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Phil Sheridan
Inquirer Columnist
Only one thing was proven beyond a reasonable doubt during Floyd
Landis' appeal hearing over the last two weeks.
Professional bicycle racing is a filthy sport and, in a perfect world,
the Tour de France would go away and never come back. Certainly there
is no reason for anyone to watch cycling's premier event with any
faith that it is clean.
Here's all you really need to know. Landis and his attorneys may
succeed in discrediting the technicians in the French lab that
produced his positive tests for synthetic testosterone, but they will
never be able to succeed in winning back Landis' reputation. Whether
he cheated to win last year's Tour is almost beside the point now that
we've seen what he'll stoop to in order to win his case.
Most of the testimony over the nine-day appeal hearing centered on the
science of mass spectrometry and the procedures followed by the French
national lab. No matter how the three-person panel of arbitrators
rules - and that could take as long as 30 days - there is a fatal flaw
in the Landis camp's approach.
From the moment news of his positive test broke last summer, Landis
has acted like a guilty man.
The most egregious example of that was the episode involving Greg
LeMond last week. It was shocking, sensationalistic stuff. LeMond
testified that he received a menacing phone call the night before he
took the stand, that the caller pretended to be the relative who
sexually molested LeMond when he was a boy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20070525_Phil_Sheridan___Cleared_or_not__Landis_is_a_loser.html
J. Spaceman
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Date: 25 May 2007 18:43:37
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On May 25, 12:55 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
>
> Your forest is really a speck. Last year, according to (my memory and) the
> anti-doping prosecutor in Italy, 600 million euros of fake prescription
> drugs were sold, for purposes such as cycling doping. So, get the pharma
> companies, the distributors, drug stores (yes, the licensed ones), your
> neighbor (who could be a dirty drug dealer), etc.
>
Holy crap. 600 million euros of _fake_ drugs? How many
of real drugs? At that rate, cracking down on doping could
ruin the economy! WADA and the narco police must be
stopped! Well, okay, the GDP of Italy is about a trillion
euros, so fake drugs are only 1/1600 of the _total_ economy,
but it still seems high. I hope at least some of those
are being sold to gym rats, bodybuilders, and footy
players, because if they're all going to guys doping for
granfondos, we are truly into excessive Masters Fatties
spending territory.
Another way of looking at it is that Fuentes faxed Haven
and Tyler an invoice for about $54,000. The 600 million
figure suggests about 10,000 Tylers (10,000 people spending
as much as Tyler, that is. To Tyler's credit, if
Fuentes was on the up-and-up, Tyler was getting the real
deal, not 600 million Euros of fake stuff.) That's
rather a lot larger than the Euro peleton. I'll guess it's
still larger than the number of granfondo riders that
are on a serious program.
Ben
Follow the money.
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| | |
Date: 26 May 2007 08:10:39
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Dans le message de news:1180143817.056040.69770@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
> On May 25, 12:55 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Your forest is really a speck. Last year, according to (my memory
>> and) the anti-doping prosecutor in Italy, 600 million euros of fake
>> prescription drugs were sold, for purposes such as cycling doping.
>> So, get the pharma companies, the distributors, drug stores (yes,
>> the licensed ones), your neighbor (who could be a dirty drug
>> dealer), etc.
>>
>
> Holy crap. 600 million euros of _fake_ drugs? How many
> of real drugs? At that rate, cracking down on doping could
> ruin the economy! WADA and the narco police must be
> stopped! Well, okay, the GDP of Italy is about a trillion
> euros, so fake drugs are only 1/1600 of the _total_ economy,
> but it still seems high. I hope at least some of those
> are being sold to gym rats, bodybuilders, and footy
> players, because if they're all going to guys doping for
> granfondos, we are truly into excessive Masters Fatties
> spending territory.
>
> Another way of looking at it is that Fuentes faxed Haven
> and Tyler an invoice for about $54,000. The 600 million
> figure suggests about 10,000 Tylers (10,000 people spending
> as much as Tyler, that is. To Tyler's credit, if
> Fuentes was on the up-and-up, Tyler was getting the real
> deal, not 600 million Euros of fake stuff.) That's
> rather a lot larger than the Euro peleton. I'll guess it's
> still larger than the number of granfondo riders that
> are on a serious program.
>
> Ben
> Follow the money.
I wrote rather inexpertly - sorry.
The drugs were not fake ; the prescriptions were ; the drugs were real and
not unlicensed imports.
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Date: 25 May 2007 23:46:24
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1180143817.056040.69770@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 25, 12:55 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Your forest is really a speck. Last year, according to (my memory and)
>> the
>> anti-doping prosecutor in Italy, 600 million euros of fake prescription
>> drugs were sold, for purposes such as cycling doping. So, get the pharma
>> companies, the distributors, drug stores (yes, the licensed ones), your
>> neighbor (who could be a dirty drug dealer), etc.
>>
>
> Holy crap. 600 million euros of _fake_ drugs? How many
> of real drugs? At that rate, cracking down on doping could
> ruin the economy! WADA and the narco police must be
> stopped! Well, okay, the GDP of Italy is about a trillion
> euros, so fake drugs are only 1/1600 of the _total_ economy,
> but it still seems high. I hope at least some of those
> are being sold to gym rats, bodybuilders, and footy
> players, because if they're all going to guys doping for
> granfondos, we are truly into excessive Masters Fatties
> spending territory.
>
> Another way of looking at it is that Fuentes faxed Haven
> and Tyler an invoice for about $54,000. The 600 million
> figure suggests about 10,000 Tylers (10,000 people spending
> as much as Tyler, that is. To Tyler's credit, if
> Fuentes was on the up-and-up, Tyler was getting the real
> deal, not 600 million Euros of fake stuff.) That's
> rather a lot larger than the Euro peleton. I'll guess it's
> still larger than the number of granfondo riders that
> are on a serious program.
>
Remind me again how much Frigo paid for that bag of water?
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Date: 26 May 2007 10:25:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> Remind me again how much Frigo paid for that bag of water?
He thought it was mineral water.
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Date: 25 May 2007 13:11:03
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On May 25, 3:55 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Coffee
> anyone?
Depends. Is it "bugno style" ?
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Date: 25 May 2007 06:16:18
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On May 25, 8:50 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com > wrote:
> Once
> a trainer or a coach is proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated
> doping, that person should be banned from the sport for life.
Riders are readily admitting that they have sought out doping to get
better or as their only means to stay in the sport. It's not like the
old scenario where they unquestioningly take what the trainer gives
them.
Aldag's quote implies he was part of a genesis of organized doping in
Telekom.
There are facilitators in the sport, but Aldag goes on to say he
bought EPO online, the UCI can't stop what gets sold online.
Someone like Dr. Fuesntes is only loosely connected with cycling and
isn't governed by the rules of cycling.
The riders that dope are back in the sport after their suspension
(Millar, Hamilton, Heras,...), but the other team personnel don't get
a second chance (Voet, Roussel, Saiz), so non-riders associated with
doping are effectively banned for life.
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Date: 25 May 2007 06:06:45
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On May 25, 8:57 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Caroline <notr...@askforone.com> a r=E9fl=E9chi, et puis a d=E9clar=E9 :
>
> > So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
> > wrong with my training program..."
>
> > The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
> > where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
> > who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
> > always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
> > to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
> > buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
> > their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
> > proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
> > person should be banned from the sport for life.
> > Caroline
>
> Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is t=
his
> you more or less always ?
I hope you're not going to draw inferences from the all-too-frequent
reports of holier-than-thou types imploding with gay hookers and
crystal meth. If Caroline were caught with a gay hooker and crystal
meth, I'm sure it would be simply innocent, possibly sexless,
experimentation and confusion that "rock" and "crystal" were referring
to jewelry.
R
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Date: 25 May 2007 03:13:57
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com > wrote:
> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to cycling with
> their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped without their knowing it
> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All of
> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people when they go
> after the athletes.
dumbass,
that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
this is aldag's quote :
"About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
about doping and asked around."
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Date: 26 May 2007 08:54:17
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> this is aldag's quote :
>
> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
> about doping and asked around."
I stand by my claim that the watershed for professional cycling was
Tirreno-Adriatico 1994. Everything since then is total bullshit.
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Date: 25 May 2007 21:05:22
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>
> this is aldag's quote :
>
> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
> about doping and asked around."
So what if Aldag et al had decided not to do what everyone else was doing
? They'd have lost their contracts at the end of the season and would have
been replaced by neo-pros or amateurs who were taking. It may seem easy
for you to condemn from your ivory tower, but it was their careers not
just a fatty master saturday criterium.
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Date: 25 May 2007 19:39:18
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:46573317$0$31238$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>
>> this is aldag's quote :
>>
>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>> about doping and asked around."
>
> So what if Aldag et al had decided not to do what everyone else was doing
> ? They'd have lost their contracts at the end of the season and would have
> been replaced by neo-pros or amateurs who were taking. It may seem easy
> for you to condemn from your ivory tower, but it was their careers not
> just a fatty master saturday criterium.
>
Wow! There's a whole flock just flew over your head and you didn't see one
of them! THAT is my point! And WHO puts the pressure on the athletes to
dope? Why don't all of these "agencies" go after the ones who are PROMOTING
the damned doping? Give amnesty to the riders and announce that any UCI
team caught doping will have all management/support/training personnel
banned for ten years or more... I suspect that would clean things up in a
hearbeat!
Some of you guys are too busy thinking up excuses for the trees to see the
forest.
Caroline
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Date: 25 May 2007 16:07:49
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On Fri, 25 May 2007 19:39:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com >
wrote:
>THAT is my point! And WHO puts the pressure on the athletes to
>dope? Why don't all of these "agencies" go after the ones who are PROMOTING
>the damned doping? Give amnesty to the riders and announce that any UCI
>team caught doping will have all management/support/training personnel
>banned for ten years or more... I suspect that would clean things up in a
>hearbeat!
You seem to believe that these are all UCI related organizations. WADA
does not really care about cleaning up cycling as an organization and
they aren't tasked with that. They are a third party that primarily
has the ability (as it impacts cycling) to every once in a while grab
a body and toss it into the combine (Kansas style, not UCI).
So when you remove WADA, who do you have left to make the rules? Oh,
pretty much those guys you want to clean up.
Probably the best that outside forces can do is put on enough pressure
to once again split pro from amateur, such as it is (IMO a good
thing). There IS no inside pressure, beond the well documented
self-interests of promoters, teams and sponsors.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 25 May 2007 21:55:37
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Dans le message de news:GXG5i.2310$3B1.1238@trnddc08,
Caroline <notreal@askforone.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:46573317$0$31238$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
>> amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
>>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>>
>>> this is aldag's quote :
>>>
>>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>>> about doping and asked around."
>>
>> So what if Aldag et al had decided not to do what everyone else was
>> doing ? They'd have lost their contracts at the end of the season
>> and would have been replaced by neo-pros or amateurs who were
>> taking. It may seem easy for you to condemn from your ivory tower,
>> but it was their careers not just a fatty master saturday criterium.
>>
>
> Wow! There's a whole flock just flew over your head and you didn't
> see one of them! THAT is my point! And WHO puts the pressure on the
> athletes to dope? Why don't all of these "agencies" go after the
> ones who are PROMOTING the damned doping? Give amnesty to the riders
> and announce that any UCI team caught doping will have all
> management/support/training personnel banned for ten years or more...
> I suspect that would clean things up in a hearbeat!
>
> Some of you guys are too busy thinking up excuses for the trees to
> see the forest.
>
> Caroline
Your forest is really a speck. Last year, according to (my memory and) the
anti-doping prosecutor in Italy, 600 million euros of fake prescription
drugs were sold, for purposes such as cycling doping. So, get the pharma
companies, the distributors, drug stores (yes, the licensed ones), your
neighbor (who could be a dirty drug dealer), etc.
Your nice and moral words don't make a dent in the influential side of the
puzzle.
And I still don't get why you think there is any need for banishment.
What's the logic? If you are in the US, you probably don't know about the
labor issues of preventing a person from earning within his profession. It
takes a lot to expel them, especially at the stock exchanges, even when they
are contemporaneously in prison.
And you don't address the potentially beneficial effects of many of the
drugs, nor the insane basis on which some are allowed, some are prohibited,
and others fall in our out depending on the year and federation. Coffee
anyone?
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.
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Date: 25 May 2007 16:09:47
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On Fri, 25 May 2007 21:55:37 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote:
>Coffee
>anyone?
No, thanks. I have a cup. Stop picking on us coffee drinkers. We're
just doing what we have to do to get through the day. We're innocent
victims, practically virgins.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 25 May 2007 12:50:27
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>
>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to cycling with
>> their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped without their knowing
>> it
>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>> of
>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people when they
>> go
>> after the athletes.
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>
> this is aldag's quote :
>
> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
> about doping and asked around."
>
So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be wrong with
my training program..."
The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to where
it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people who want to
win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there always will be. But I
don't know of any doping shops where you have to show your UCI or USCF or
whatever federation license in order to buy their goods. And I do know
cyclists who were pushed into it by their team's trainers and coaches. Once
a trainer or a coach is proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated
doping, that person should be banned from the sport for life.
Caroline
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Date: 25 May 2007 10:46:17
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On Fri, 25 May 2007 12:50:27 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com > wrote:
><amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to cycling with
>>> their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped without their knowing
>>> it
>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>>> of
>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people when they
>>> go
>>> after the athletes.
>>
>>
>> dumbass,
>>
>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>
>> this is aldag's quote :
>>
>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>> about doping and asked around."
>>
>
>
>So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be wrong with
>my training program..."
>
>The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to where
>it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people who want to
>win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there always will be.
Dumbass,
Nobody, that's NOBODY!!!!! ever won or even finished, or hell even entered a
modern grand tour without working like a whipped dog for tens of thousands of
miles. There is no dope that lets a lazy person finish a tour, nevermind win
one.
This is probably what confuses the issue most and feeds the perverse moralistic
posturing, the idiotic idea that dope makes it easy. Dope does NOT make it easy,
it just makes it possible to work that much harder and still recover.
Laziness has got nothing whatever to do with it. Okay, maybe at the lowest level
of the sport but nowhere near the grand tour level.
I know you are discounting that aspect , I read well enough to get that point.
But please, let's just throw this whole "lazy" concept out. There are enough
people who think it's all a question of who takes more dope - and what matters
is who works hardest and most effectively. THe dope just makes another level
possible.
> But I
>don't know of any doping shops where you have to show your UCI or USCF or
>whatever federation license in order to buy their goods. And I do know
>cyclists who were pushed into it by their team's trainers and coaches. Once
>a trainer or a coach is proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated
>doping, that person should be banned from the sport for life.
That should be looked at, and hard. I'll agree that side deserves as much or
more attention as the riders. And as a bonus, the average soigneur makes so
little he can't fight it like a star rider.
Ron
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Date: 25 May 2007 14:57:48
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Dans le message de news:nYA5i.8476$TU1.2500@trnddc07,
Caroline <notreal@askforone.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> <amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to
>>> cycling with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped
>>> without their knowing it
>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>>> of
>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people
>>> when they go
>>> after the athletes.
>>
>>
>> dumbass,
>>
>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>
>> this is aldag's quote :
>>
>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>> about doping and asked around."
>>
>
>
> So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
> wrong with my training program..."
>
> The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
> where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
> who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
> always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
> to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
> buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
> their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
> proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
> person should be banned from the sport for life.
> Caroline
Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is this
you more or less always ?
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 17:55:44
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote in message
news:4656dd4c$0$24095$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
> Dans le message de news:nYA5i.8476$TU1.2500@trnddc07,
> Caroline <notreal@askforone.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> <amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to
>>>> cycling with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped
>>>> without their knowing it
>>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>>>> of
>>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people
>>>> when they go
>>>> after the athletes.
>>>
>>>
>>> dumbass,
>>>
>>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>>
>>> this is aldag's quote :
>>>
>>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>>> about doping and asked around."
>>>
>>
>>
>> So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
>> wrong with my training program..."
>>
>> The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
>> where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
>> who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
>> always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
>> to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
>> buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
>> their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
>> proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
>> person should be banned from the sport for life.
>> Caroline
>
> Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is
> this you more or less always ?
LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases down
Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
Seriously, I love the sport. I'll be having nine or ten guys spend the
weekend here for the criterium races in the DFW area this weekend. So
SOMETIMES I'm one of the good guys....
But!!!
Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever, who has
had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the sport.
Guys today who think about doping and wonder if it can improve their
performance are extremely late comers to the game! Which is WHY they know
about it. For the years that doping -- drugs, blood boosting, whatever --
has been around, it's always the athletes who are punished. With very few
exceptions, there aren't a whole lot of riders who know how to get into this
stuff without help. At the elite levels, Cat 1s through Pro ranks, my
observation is that they get the stuff through team connecctions. So how
come the axe always falls on the athlete's neck? It is my observation that
you guys at the elite level are treated like a commodity. If "they" can
enhance your performance with doping and you get caught, YOU get punished,
but there are a lot more new riders coming up through the ranks. I don't
think that's the way things should be done. That's all. Feel free to
disagree.
Caroline
|
| | | | | |
Date: 26 May 2007 22:18:34
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Caroline a écrit :
> "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote in message
> news:4656dd4c$0$24095$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
>
>> Dans le message de news:nYA5i.8476$TU1.2500@trnddc07,
>> Caroline <notreal@askforone.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>
>>> <amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to
>>>>> cycling with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped
>>>>> without their knowing it
>>>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>>>>> of
>>>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people
>>>>> when they go
>>>>> after the athletes.
>>>>>
>>>> dumbass,
>>>>
>>>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> this is aldag's quote :
>>>>
>>>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>>>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>>>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>>>> about doping and asked around."
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
>>> wrong with my training program..."
>>>
>>> The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
>>> where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
>>> who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
>>> always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
>>> to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
>>> buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
>>> their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
>>> proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
>>> person should be banned from the sport for life.
>>> Caroline
>>>
>> Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is
>> this you more or less always ?
>>
>
>
> LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases down
> Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
>
> Seriously, I love the sport. I'll be having nine or ten guys spend the
> weekend here for the criterium races in the DFW area this weekend. So
> SOMETIMES I'm one of the good guys....
>
> But!!!
>
> Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever, who has
> had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the sport.
> Guys today who think about doping and wonder if it can improve their
> performance are extremely late comers to the game! Which is WHY they know
> about it. For the years that doping -- drugs, blood boosting, whatever --
> has been around, it's always the athletes who are punished. With very few
> exceptions, there aren't a whole lot of riders who know how to get into this
> stuff without help. At the elite levels, Cat 1s through Pro ranks, my
> observation is that they get the stuff through team connecctions. So how
> come the axe always falls on the athlete's neck? It is my observation that
> you guys at the elite level are treated like a commodity. If "they" can
> enhance your performance with doping and you get caught, YOU get punished,
> but there are a lot more new riders coming up through the ranks. I don't
> think that's the way things should be done. That's all. Feel free to
> disagree.
>
> Caroline
>
>
>
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2007/20070526_182639Dev.html
Just one person, one day, today.
There are lots.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 16:09:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
In article <AqF5i.15$WZ6.5@trnddc03 >,
"Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com > wrote:
> "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote in message
> news:4656dd4c$0$24095$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
> > Dans le message de news:nYA5i.8476$TU1.2500@trnddc07,
> > Caroline <notreal@askforone.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> >> <amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to
> >>>> cycling with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped
> >>>> without their knowing it
> >>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
> >>>> of
> >>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people
> >>>> when they go
> >>>> after the athletes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> dumbass,
> >>>
> >>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
> >>>
> >>> this is aldag's quote :
> >>>
> >>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
> >>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
> >>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
> >>> about doping and asked around."
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
> >> wrong with my training program..."
> >>
> >> The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
> >> where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
> >> who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
> >> always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
> >> to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
> >> buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
> >> their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
> >> proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
> >> person should be banned from the sport for life.
> >> Caroline
> >
> > Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is
> > this you more or less always ?
>
>
> LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases down
> Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
>
> Seriously, I love the sport. I'll be having nine or ten guys spend the
> weekend here for the criterium races in the DFW area this weekend. So
> SOMETIMES I'm one of the good guys....
>
> But!!!
>
> Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever, who has
> had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the sport.
> Guys today who think about doping and wonder if it can improve their
> performance are extremely late comers to the game! Which is WHY they know
> about it. For the years that doping -- drugs, blood boosting, whatever --
> has been around, it's always the athletes who are punished. With very few
> exceptions, there aren't a whole lot of riders who know how to get into this
> stuff without help. At the elite levels, Cat 1s through Pro ranks, my
> observation is that they get the stuff through team connecctions. So how
> come the axe always falls on the athlete's neck? It is my observation that
> you guys at the elite level are treated like a commodity. If "they" can
> enhance your performance with doping and you get caught, YOU get punished,
> but there are a lot more new riders coming up through the ranks. I don't
> think that's the way things should be done. That's all. Feel free to
> disagree.
Thanks, but I agree. Now how to prove it?
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 20:40:47
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Caroline wrote:
> LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases down
> Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
Hopefully its a carbon fibre broom.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 19:34:36
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:46572d54$0$31248$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> Caroline wrote:
>> LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases
>> down
>> Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
>
> Hopefully its a carbon fibre broom.
>
Pinarello Magnesium Witches Swoosh Premier! How else can I make the sparks
fly?
I've been thinking... Some of you may have the idea that I am against the
amnesty for riders. That's not the case at all. I'm all for that.
Caroline
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 19:00:07
From: Dan Gregory
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Caroline wrote:
> "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote in message
> news:4656dd4c$0$24095$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
>> Dans le message de news:nYA5i.8476$TU1.2500@trnddc07,
>> Caroline <notreal@askforone.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>> <amit.ghosh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to
>>>>> cycling with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped
>>>>> without their knowing it
>>>>> because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All
>>>>> of
>>>>> the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people
>>>>> when they go
>>>>> after the athletes.
>>>>
>>>> dumbass,
>>>>
>>>> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> this is aldag's quote :
>>>>
>>>> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
>>>> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
>>>> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
>>>> about doping and asked around."
>>>>
>>>
>>> So he was too damned stupid to think, "Man, something's gotta be
>>> wrong with my training program..."
>>>
>>> The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that doping could NOT get to
>>> where it is today through athletes alone. Now, are there lazy people
>>> who want to win the Tour without working? You betcha! And there
>>> always will be. But I don't know of any doping shops where you have
>>> to show your UCI or USCF or whatever federation license in order to
>>> buy their goods. And I do know cyclists who were pushed into it by
>>> their team's trainers and coaches. Once a trainer or a coach is
>>> proven to have promoted or assisted or facilitated doping, that
>>> person should be banned from the sport for life.
>>> Caroline
>> Are you occasionally beset by a forgiveness and remediation mode, or is
>> this you more or less always ?
>
>
> LOL! You're cute. No, I'm a mean bitch who rides a broom and chases down
> Cat 5s for drafting on road ref vehicles! '-(
>
> Seriously, I love the sport. I'll be having nine or ten guys spend the
> weekend here for the criterium races in the DFW area this weekend. So
> SOMETIMES I'm one of the good guys....
>
> But!!!
>
> Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever, who has
> had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the sport.
Manolo Saez
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 18:30:19
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
In article <5bomgnF2tsbkvU1@mid.individual.net >,
Dan Gregory <dangregory@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk > wrote:
> Caroline wrote:
> > Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever, who
> > has had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the sport.
>
> Manolo Saez
Don't forget Bruno Roussel and Willy Voet from Festina.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 23:41:56
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-098063.18301925052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <5bomgnF2tsbkvU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Dan Gregory <dangregory@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Caroline wrote:
>
>> > Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever,
>> > who
>> > has had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the
>> > sport.
>>
>> Manolo Saez
>
> Don't forget Bruno Roussel and Willy Voet from Festina.
I thought Voet had gotten a job, albeit possibly a nonpaying one, as a
driver of a team bus on a low level French pro team. Not a job in any
soigneur type capacity like he formerly had, though.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 21:56:33
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
In article <ZUO5i.187081$jt2.70999@newsfe13.lga >, "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net>
wrote:
> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-098063.18301925052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article <5bomgnF2tsbkvU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Dan Gregory <dangregory@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Caroline wrote:
> >
> >> > Name ONE team director, administrator, trainer, physician, whatever,
> >> > who has had sanctions placed against him or who has been banned from the
> >> > sport.
> >>
> >> Manolo Saez
> >
> > Don't forget Bruno Roussel and Willy Voet from Festina.
>
> I thought Voet had gotten a job, albeit possibly a nonpaying one, as a
> driver of a team bus on a low level French pro team. Not a job in any
> soigneur type capacity like he formerly had, though.
Well, that's way better than being reduced to driving a cab. Oh, wait...
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | |
Date: 25 May 2007 14:46:21
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Dans le message de
news:1180088037.821565.325610@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
amit.ghosh@gmail.com <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On May 25, 5:34 am, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>
>> I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to cycling
>> with their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped without
>> their knowing it because the team honchos came to them with
>> "vitamins" they needed. All of the cycling governing agencies are
>> going after the wrong people when they go after the athletes.
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> that babe in the woods act is bullshit.
>
> this is aldag's quote :
>
> "About four of us sat on the curb during one of the Grand Tours,"
> began Aldag, referring to his 1994 season. "We had been totally
> dropped and couldn't keep up. What could we do? I started thinking
> about doping and asked around."
Being slightly more modern and solitary, Landis said at the hearing that he
was curious and looked up drugs on the internet. Really!
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 15:11:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Sandy wrote:
> Being slightly more modern and solitary, Landis said at the hearing that he
> was curious and looked up drugs on the internet. Really!
I think I should look up making love on the Internet.
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 21:05:23
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> Sandy wrote:
>> Being slightly more modern and solitary, Landis said at the hearing that he
>> was curious and looked up drugs on the internet. Really!
>
> I think I should look up making love on the Internet.
If you choose to make love on the internet, please keep the link private.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 26 May 2007 18:48:59
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> If you choose to make love on the internet, please keep the link private.
I'm planning on being rbr first online porn star if I can persuade
Bassos's sister to co-star.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 28 May 2007 13:50:41
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:48:59 +0200, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> If you choose to make love on the internet, please keep the link private.
>
>I'm planning on being rbr first online porn star if I can persuade
>Bassos's sister to co-star.
>
Wouldn't that leave her with a lot of air time on her own? Not that
that's a problem or anything.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 10:10:02
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> If you choose to make love on the internet, please keep the link private.
>
> I'm planning on being rbr first online porn star if I can persuade
> Bassos's sister to co-star.
Jabber or jabbee ?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 08:10:31
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Stu Fleming wrote:
> Jabber or jabbee ?
Jabberwocky.
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 17:11:44
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Dans le message de news:4656e170$0$31245$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Sandy wrote:
>> Being slightly more modern and solitary, Landis said at the hearing
>> that he was curious and looked up drugs on the internet. Really!
>
> I think I should look up making love on the Internet.
First time is not usually the best, Don - be careful and don't be
disappointed.
|
| |
Date: 25 May 2007 10:55:21
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
> By Phil Sheridan
> Inquirer Columnist
> Professional bicycle racing is a filthy sport and, in a perfect world,
> the Tour de France would go away and never come back. Certainly there
> is no reason for anyone to watch cycling's premier event with any
> faith that it is clean.
In a perfect world hypocrites like this guy would suffer from spontaneous
combustion or be condemned to go on a hunting trip with Cheney.
|
| | |
Date: 25 May 2007 09:34:52
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4656a55c$0$31231$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> Jason Spaceman wrote:
>> By Phil Sheridan
>> Inquirer Columnist
>> Professional bicycle racing is a filthy sport and, in a perfect world,
>> the Tour de France would go away and never come back. Certainly there
>> is no reason for anyone to watch cycling's premier event with any
>> faith that it is clean.
>
> In a perfect world hypocrites like this guy would suffer from spontaneous
> combustion or be condemned to go on a hunting trip with Cheney.
>
ummm.... 'Scuze me, but IF you want the world to believe in your innocence,
you don't start the Tour by announcing that you have a severely arthritic
hip that you'll have replaced as soon as the race is over, then go eleven
minutes down in ONE day, then come back the next day and turn in a
performance that looks like you've turned in your team bike for a Harley,
and expect no one to believe a lab test that shows synthetic testosterone.
There IS a crediblity gap here somewhere.
I hate what the directeurs sportif and trainers have done to cycling with
their doping. I have known cyclists who were doped without their knowing it
because the team honchos came to them with "vitamins" they needed. All of
the cycling governing agencies are going after the wrong people when they go
after the athletes. NO athlete can do this stuff alone. Then when the acts
are so flagrant that they leave blood bags behind for someone to find and
test? Tours de Mafia.
Caroline
|
| | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 12:12:41
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
>>> By Phil Sheridan
>>> Inquirer Columnist
>>> Professional bicycle racing is a filthy sport and, in a perfect world,
>>> the Tour de France would go away and never come back. Certainly there
>>> is no reason for anyone to watch cycling's premier event with any
>>> faith that it is clean.
Donald Munro wrote:
>> In a perfect world hypocrites like this guy would suffer from spontaneous
>> combustion or be condemned to go on a hunting trip with Cheney.
Caroline wrote:
> There IS a crediblity gap here somewhere.
The guys a hypocrite because he assumes cycling is the only "filthy
sport". The only difference between the so called filthy sport and the
"clean sports" he normally covers (such as super squeaky-clean American
football which appears to be his speciality
(http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/phil_sheridan/) is cycling
authorities do not cover up, or at least they're don't have enough money
to cover up properly.
Anyway he's from Philadelphia.
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 09:03:02
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
On Fri, 25 May 2007 12:12:41 +0200, Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>Jason Spaceman wrote:
>>>> By Phil Sheridan
>>>> Inquirer Columnist
>>>> Professional bicycle racing is a filthy sport and, in a perfect world,
>>>> the Tour de France would go away and never come back. Certainly there
>>>> is no reason for anyone to watch cycling's premier event with any
>>>> faith that it is clean.
>
>Donald Munro wrote:
>>> In a perfect world hypocrites like this guy would suffer from spontaneous
>>> combustion or be condemned to go on a hunting trip with Cheney.
>
>Caroline wrote:
>> There IS a crediblity gap here somewhere.
>
>The guys a hypocrite because he assumes cycling is the only "filthy
>sport". The only difference between the so called filthy sport and the
>"clean sports" he normally covers (such as super squeaky-clean American
>football which appears to be his speciality
>(http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/phil_sheridan/) is cycling
>authorities do not cover up, or at least they're don't have enough money
>to cover up properly.
Not only do they not cover up, they wallow in it. Sort of joining this weird
confessional fad by proxy. McQuade didn't dope but he wants to stand up and cry
as he confesses like all the cool kids.
Besides, lets just say that everybody is telling the truth .... Football with
guys buying steroids from trainers who fetch them from foreign places is a hell
of a lot "cleaner" than the Trainspotting like imagery DeCanio invokes from his
Italian experience.
>Anyway he's from Philadelphia.
Oh, fuck. Nevermind.
Ron
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 16:49:01
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
RonSonic wrote:
> Not only do they not cover up, they wallow in it. Sort of joining this weird
> confessional fad by proxy. McQuade didn't dope but he wants to stand up and cry
> as he confesses like all the cool kids.
Must be a catholic thing. Perhaps they'll all be counting chain links
instead of rosary beads.
Come to think of it, perhaps the priests know more about the current
situation than the team managers, UCI and WADA put together.
OTOH perhaps the moslems get free EPO in paradise along with their virgins
to give them a bit more endurance.
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 May 2007 12:39:53
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: Commentary: Cleared or not, Landis is a loser
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4656b77d$0$31223 >
>
> Caroline wrote:
> Anyway he's from Philadelphia.
>
Ahhh... Well, you left that part out!
Caroline
Who's not from Phillyadel[phia, but likes their steak sandwiches.
|
|
