Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

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Date: 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html

Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.

-------------

So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
#1-ranked cyclist in the world?

Anna Wilson (formerly Millward) tested positive for lidocaine back in
2001. Note the excuse she used would never hold water under the current
WADA system, and she should have been banned for 2 years since this
happened after the creation of WADA.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/aug01/aug25news.php

Note: the article in cyclingnews is misleading in that it fails to say
that lidocaine was on the banned list (which it was). Instead it makes
a meaningless declaration that is designed to imply just the opposite is
true (that the substance that contaiined the lidocaine itself wasn't
banned - this is nothing but a play on words):

------------
At the time the positive test was announced in July, Millward told
Cyclingnews that the substance was "a product called 'Soov' which is in
all A.I.S. medical kits and is not be banned under Australian
regulations. My main error was in not writing down that I used 'Soov' on
my drug test form as if I had done that then the Lidocaine in my urine
would have been explained, and it would not have registered as a
positive test."
------------

FACT: Lidocaine was on the UCI and Aussie banned list in 2001.

Had Millward used this excuse to USADA or in the Olympics she would have
been banned under the strict liability system. It is unclear why she
wasn't banned. Simply listing lidocaine on your form does not give you
a retoractive TUE to use it, which Millward didn't have. This was a
corrupt decision by the Aussie national federation to cover up a failed
dope test by their star rider and the facts are not in dispute.

It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
"turning over a new leaf."

(Note: since like 2002, the UCI routinely appeals decisions like the one
made by the Aussie federation to acquit their riders in clear-cut failed
doping cases like Millward, and the CAS always argues the national
federations acted improperly in not finding the athlete guilty because
their excuse is not relevant in a strict liability system. All Millward
and the Aussie federation did is explain why she tested positive for a
banned substance! This excuse isn't even allowed under the current
system and it is unclear why Aussie federation was never taken to task
on this by the UCI.)

I know if I were a pro rider and wanted to use lidocaine in a controlled
doping program, I would invent as my "drop story" that it was from an
innocent susbtance for mosquito bites.

I think the women have "Die Lidocaine" painted on their frames.

Thanks,

Magilla
"Die Samsonite"
Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of Sport Hypocrisy

Date: 18 Jan 2007 10:56:00
From: Thurston Howell IV
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Robert Chung wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > Riis has more guns than just Basso.
>
> Is that acceptable?

Where's Emma when you need her?

-Thurston Howell IV

Date: 18 Jan 2007 08:42:04
From: Andy Coggan
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1169065095.221414.120260@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Carl Sundquist wrote:
> >
> >> Riis has more guns than just Basso. Nobody's indispensible.
> >
> > Except, of course, the sponsors (and Riis himself).
> >
> > Andy Coggan
> >
>
> Not even. If CSC/Riis went away, another team would take their spot. There
> is a surplus of teams looking for ProTour places.

Point taken - I thought you meant w/in the Danish squad.

Andy Coggan

Date: 17 Jan 2007 12:18:15
From: Andy Coggan
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> Riis has more guns than just Basso. Nobody's indispensible.

Except, of course, the sponsors (and Riis himself).

Andy Coggan

Date: 17 Jan 2007 18:57:10
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:1169065095.221414.120260@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
>> Riis has more guns than just Basso. Nobody's indispensible.
>
> Except, of course, the sponsors (and Riis himself).
>
> Andy Coggan
>

Not even. If CSC/Riis went away, another team would take their spot. There
is a surplus of teams looking for ProTour places.

Date: 18 Jan 2007 10:11:31
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:
> Not even. If CSC/Riis went away, another team would take their spot. There
> is a surplus of teams looking for ProTour places.

But I thought according to pound of excrement and his fellow inquisitors
pro cycling was supposed to be dying. These reports seem to be slightly
exaggerated.

Date: 17 Jan 2007 12:15:47
From: Andy Coggan
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11259.0.html
>
> The Beke case gets mentioned a lot," Tygart said, "but no one's actually
> seen the test results."

WTF is Tygart talking about? Beke's data have been published in the
scientific literature.

Andy Coggan

Date: 17 Jan 2007 12:09:04
From: Andy Coggan
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/aug01/aug25news.php
>
> Note: the article in cyclingnews is misleading in that it fails to say
> that lidocaine was on the banned list (which it was). Instead it makes
> a meaningless declaration that is designed to imply just the opposite is
> true (that the substance that contaiined the lidocaine itself wasn't
> banned - this is nothing but a play on words):
>
> ------------
> At the time the positive test was announced in July, Millward told
> Cyclingnews that the substance was "a product called 'Soov' which is in
> all A.I.S. medical kits and is not be banned under Australian
> regulations. My main error was in not writing down that I used 'Soov' on
> my drug test form as if I had done that then the Lidocaine in my urine
> would have been explained, and it would not have registered as a
> positive test."
> ------------
>
> FACT: Lidocaine was on the UCI and Aussie banned list in 2001.
>
> Had Millward used this excuse to USADA or in the Olympics she would have
> been banned under the strict liability system.

Dumbass,

If Millward had declared her use of the product a priori and an
exemption had been granted, then she would not have committed a doping
violation, just as she says.

Andy Coggan

Date: 17 Jan 2007 11:58:49
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Kyle Legate wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> > My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like nobody
> > really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.
>
> You should edit his wiki page. That juicy morsel is not mentioned.

Are you nuts? Don King killed a man just for top-posting
on Usenet, and you want to edit his wikipedia page?
Being a goth is one thing, but having a blatant death
wish is another.

Date: 18 Jan 2007 10:12:50
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Are you nuts? Don King killed a man just for top-posting
> on Usenet

Ewoud should take up boxing promotion (if boxing is legal in the
Netherlands).

Date: 18 Jan 2007 09:45:22
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:12:50 +0200, Donald Munro wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> Are you nuts? Don King killed a man just for top-posting
>> on Usenet
>
> Ewoud should take up boxing promotion

Right! Don King's career in reverse. Actually I'd prefer promoting
women's yoghurt wrestling.

--
E. Dronkert

Date: 17 Jan 2007 15:26:42
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On 17 Jan 2007 11:58:49 -0800, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:

>Kyle Legate wrote:
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>> > My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like nobody
>> > really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.
>>
>> You should edit his wiki page. That juicy morsel is not mentioned.
>
>Are you nuts? Don King killed a man just for top-posting
>on Usenet, and you want to edit his wikipedia page?

POTM

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
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****************************

Date: 17 Jan 2007 10:03:53
From: need more sun
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

>
> When you watch Saturday Night Live or listen to Howard Stern do you
> become angry and righteous when you hear them do a joke too?
>
> I suggest you lighten up.
>
>
> Magilla

I suggest you don't bring someone's mother into debates, you f***
asshole...

Date: 17 Jan 2007 09:59:26
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> I can see why Germany wants to show the world they are capable of
> policing their own, but where does Canada's guilt come from? Jeanson
> wuld still be racing today had she been allowed to take out a license
> through the Canadian federation.

dumbass,

two reasons. a socialist attitude means there's a disdain for
overachieving and lingering trauma from the ben johnson incident.

after that case there was a massive inquiry which revealed the exent of
the doping system in the track program. it was on TV everyday and
people watched it like the OJ trial.

the jeanson incident at hamilton reminded people of that. the local
coverage of the road worlds focused on two things: the kevin lacombe
crash and the jeanson incident.

incidentally it was dick pound who was assigned to defend ben johnson
(i don't remember the exact details).

> Now Canada has virtually no hope of getting an Olympic or worlds medal
> in women's road cycling (or men's for that matter).

the jeanson incident had a chilling effect on sponsorships. Rona no
longer wants to sponsor athletes, but surprisingly they are still
willing to sponsor cycling events.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:17:26
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> The Aussie federation evaluating a doping test of its #1 women's rider
> who is on their national team is like your father, mother, and brother
> sitting on the jury in your murder trial.

i've never disagreed. it's only masochistic countries like canada and
germany that beat up their own athletes.

that conflict of interest scenario goes back a long time. there was the
cindy olavarri case. her doping was covered up and she was pulled from
the '84 olympic team under the pretense of having mono.

> In fact, people who look at the Wilson case can see that it was an "old
> system" case, and can read between the lines. Here is what USADA says
> about such cases decided by national federations:
>
>
> If someone were to list all the dopers who were caught in cycling
> playing games, it would exceed the number of people on the planet earth.

the t-mobile team is surprisingly baggage free. but, it surprises me
that they don't have an issue with gontchar's history but they canned
jorg ludewig for a letter he wrote in 1998.

this leads me to believe that there's more to the ludewig story than
what we can read on cyclingnews.

Date: 17 Jan 2007 10:42:03
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>
>
>>The Aussie federation evaluating a doping test of its #1 women's rider
>>who is on their national team is like your father, mother, and brother
>>sitting on the jury in your murder trial.
>
>
> i've never disagreed. it's only masochistic countries like canada and
> germany that beat up their own athletes.
>

I can see why Germany wants to show the world they are capable of
policing their own, but where does Canada's guilt come from? Jeanson
wuld still be racing today had she been allowed to take out a license
through the Canadian federation.

Now Canada has virtually no hope of getting an Olympic or worlds medal
in women's road cycling (or men's for that matter).

Thanks,

Magilla

Date: 17 Jan 2007 18:09:34
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Now Canada has virtually no hope of getting an Olympic or worlds medal
> in women's road cycling (or men's for that matter).

Perhaps they can still get a medal in the special Olympics.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 12:46:39
From: need more sun
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

>
> And I also declared your mother's vagina as my permanent residence on my
> tax forms. But the IRS sent me a letter saying I couldn't do that
> because I spent more than half my time living in your sister's vagina.
>
Nice...that's classy.. True colours coming out now..

Date: 16 Jan 2007 16:54:41
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

need more sun wrote:

>>And I also declared your mother's vagina as my permanent residence on my
>>tax forms. But the IRS sent me a letter saying I couldn't do that
>>because I spent more than half my time living in your sister's vagina.
>>
>
> Nice...that's classy.. True colours coming out now..
>

When you watch Saturday Night Live or listen to Howard Stern do you
become angry and righteous when you hear them do a joke too?

I suggest you lighten up.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 11:14:28
From: kgleason
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2007 12:55:50 -0800, "kgleason" <katscos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> >> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
> >> >
> >> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >> >
> >> >-------------
> >> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
> >> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
> >>
> >> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> >> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> >> racing.
> >> --
> >> JT
> >
> >It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
> >is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
> >boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
> >can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
> >saddle time.
>
> Yeah, the two women I know who used lidocaine both did the HP Women's
> Classic. Though only one of them used it at that race I think -- the
> other had it for a reason related to childbirth.
> --
> JT

Funny - that's where I learned about it. Maybe AW picked up the habit
in Idaho.

K

Date: 16 Jan 2007 08:31:49
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Jan 15, 8:05 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> Benjo has repeatedly voiced an opinion that it's all part of the game, no
> matter that people are posturing otherwise, and that the fans aren't really
> that concerned.
>
> Despite noise to the contrary, are Americans really that concerned about
> steroids in football? Reference Shawne Merriman who had a four game
> suspension for steroids, but finished 3rd in the Associated Press NFL
> defensive player of the year awards this season.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

I think Benjo's right and that even here it's a small, loud, handful
of people putting on 95% of the pressure. My real bitch is that
T-Mobile went the Holier than Thou route, put themselves up on a
pedestal, slammed everyone else, and are just as dirty by choice of
management. The same people who condemned everyone else.
Either we say anything goes, right down to peewee football and little
league, you know parents would be doping their 10yr olds, or we fix the
system we have now. I'm for fixing the system, slashing the banned
substance list to the most effective of the substances, and then
slamming those who get caught.
First though we've got to end the kangaroo court. They hammered Mike
Nifong big time, and Pound is dirtier and far less ethical than him,
but nothings gonna happen because it's about who you know, and blow,
and Pound works overtime on the latter.
Bill C

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:40:15
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Bill C wrote:

>
> On Jan 15, 8:05 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Benjo has repeatedly voiced an opinion that it's all part of the game, no
>>matter that people are posturing otherwise, and that the fans aren't really
>>that concerned.
>>
>>Despite noise to the contrary, are Americans really that concerned about
>>steroids in football? Reference Shawne Merriman who had a four game
>>suspension for steroids, but finished 3rd in the Associated Press NFL
>>defensive player of the year awards this season.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
>
> I think Benjo's right and that even here it's a small, loud, handful
> of people putting on 95% of the pressure. My real bitch is that
> T-Mobile went the Holier than Thou route, put themselves up on a
> pedestal, slammed everyone else, and are just as dirty by choice of
> management. The same people who condemned everyone else.
> Either we say anything goes, right down to peewee football and little
> league, you know parents would be doping their 10yr olds, or we fix the
> system we have now. I'm for fixing the system, slashing the banned
> substance list to the most effective of the substances, and then
> slamming those who get caught.
> First though we've got to end the kangaroo court. They hammered Mike
> Nifong big time, and Pound is dirtier and far less ethical than him,
> but nothings gonna happen because it's about who you know, and blow,
> and Pound works overtime on the latter.
> Bill C
>

Nifong and Pound are red herrings. Arbitrators and juries decide these
cases, not prosecutors or the president of WADA.

So far, nobody has even alleged the arbitrators on CAS (or North
Carlolina juries) are not objective or fair. That's what matters as they
decide cases.

What difference does it make if the prosecutor is an idiot or Pound runs
his mouth off? If he's such an idiot and his case is so bad, wouldn't
that make it that much easier for a jury or panel of arbitrators to
acquit? I would think so.

The problem with everyone is they are not saying or even implying the
jurors or arbitrators are unfair. Until I see that allegation, the
system is fine and works as it should.

Criticizing people like Pound is meaningless because he has no function
in any doping case.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 06:15:54
From: need more sun
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

The other issue is that if the substance is no longer on WADA's banned
list, it suggests it doesn't have a substantial performance benefit.
That ties in with an accidental positive. Why are you so quick to lump
someone in with those who intentionally dope with something like EPO?
It is not beyond the grounds of belief that this could be a genuinely
accidental case, as the anti-doping hearing concluded? It is one thing
if it is testosterone. But if it is a substance which is genuinely
found in other creams and which the AIS provided, then that is totally
different. Calling her a doper and taking the tone you have taken is
very OTT. And extremely unfair, if it was a genuine mistake.

I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.

I am all against intentional doping and think the penalties should be
harsh. But if this is a genuine mistake, your tone is very unfair.

I am sure some of you who are so quick to criticise someone in this
position have no problem with the fact that Armstrong tested positive
for cortizone in the 1999 Tour. According to one of the USPS team, he
got off as they retrospectively produced a cert to say he had used a
saddle sore cream.

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> kgleason wrote:
>
> > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> >><MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
> >>>
> >>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >>>
> >>>-------------
> >>
> >>I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
> >>banned under USCF rules if used topically?
> >>
> >>If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> >>what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> >>racing.
> >>--
> >>JT
> >
> >
> > It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
> > is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
> > boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
> > can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
> > saddle time.
> >
> >
> > Kathleen
> >
>
>
> I have a tent set up at many women's NRC stage races where I offer FREE
> applications of lidocaine.
>
> I give back to the sport. I don't just take.
>
>
> Magilleen

Date: 17 Jan 2007 09:50:19
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article
<1168956952.741966.172450@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com >,
"need more sun" <recbikegroup@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:

> I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
> saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
> of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
> permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
> quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
> soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
> innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.

My accountant is a straight arrow. I haven't had so
much as an aspirin in ten years.

--
Michael Press

Date: 17 Jan 2007 07:33:34
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-A44B83.01501917012007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <1168956952.741966.172450@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> "need more sun" <recbikegroup@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
>> saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
>> of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
>> permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
>> quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
>> soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
>> innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.
>
> My accountant is a straight arrow. I haven't had so
> much as an aspirin in ten years.
>

Do you come to a complete stop for every stop sign when you ride your bike?

Date: 17 Jan 2007 17:57:20
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <kBprh.28472$sE7.837@newsfe21.lga >,
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-A44B83.01501917012007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> > In article
> > <1168956952.741966.172450@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> > "need more sun" <recbikegroup@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
> >> saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
> >> of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
> >> permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
> >> quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
> >> soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
> >> innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.
> >
> > My accountant is a straight arrow. I haven't had so
> > much as an aspirin in ten years.
> >
>
> Do you come to a complete stop for every stop sign when you ride your bike?

What stop sign?

--
Michael Press

Date: 17 Jan 2007 22:30:10
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:57:20 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:

>In article <kBprh.28472$sE7.837@newsfe21.lga>,
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:rubrum-A44B83.01501917012007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>> > In article
>> > <1168956952.741966.172450@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
>> > "need more sun" <recbikegroup@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
>> >> saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
>> >> of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
>> >> permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
>> >> quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
>> >> soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
>> >> innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.
>> >
>> > My accountant is a straight arrow. I haven't had so
>> > much as an aspirin in ten years.
>> >
>>
>> Do you come to a complete stop for every stop sign when you ride your bike?
>
>What stop sign?

It's a car thing, you wouldn't understand.

Ron

Date: 16 Jan 2007 14:05:41
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

need more sun wrote:

>
> I'd be very interested if those of you acting holier than thou are as
> saintly as you would seem to suggest. Why, I'd wager that at least some
> of you have been speeding/fiddling taxes/doing other things not
> permitted in society. Yet when someone fails a test for something which
> quite possibly was accidental, you are jumping up and down on your
> soapboxes about it, damning her and writing what would be to an
> innocent athlete something which is very hurtful.

You're like the director who gets a bad review for his shitty movie by a
critic and then responds with, "Well what movies have you directed that
makes you so great?"

You can't shoot the messenger, boss. I'm just telling you the facts,
I'm not making them up.

I would say that T-Mobile hiring a positive tester is a PR disaster
waiting to happen. That's pretty much a fact, and not really my opinion.

And I also declared your mother's vagina as my permanent residence on my
tax forms. But the IRS sent me a letter saying I couldn't do that
because I spent more than half my time living in your sister's vagina.

So you are correct in that I do have tax problems. But I'm all about
being transparent about it.

Thanks,

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:58:20
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

need more sun wrote:

> The other issue is that if the substance is no longer on WADA's banned
> list, it suggests it doesn't have a substantial performance benefit.
> That ties in with an accidental positive. Why are you so quick to lump
> someone in with those who intentionally dope with something like EPO?
> It is not beyond the grounds of belief that this could be a genuinely
> accidental case, as the anti-doping hearing concluded? It is one thing
> if it is testosterone. But if it is a substance which is genuinely
> found in other creams and which the AIS provided, then that is totally
> different. Calling her a doper and taking the tone you have taken is
> very OTT. And extremely unfair, if it was a genuine mistake.

I'm not calling her a doper (but by the same token I'm also not calling
her a non-doper). You must have a special edition crystal ball model
that I don't have, since you seem to know for sure. I'm calling her a
positive tester.

T-Mobile and CSC shouldn't hire "positive testers" given their Snow
White immaculate conception anti-doping policies. There's no need to
get into the details from a PR standpoint.

It's like hiring Michael Jackson - he was also acquitted, just like Anna
Wilson - to run your day care center. You just don't fucking do it from
a PR standpoint. You don't even go there.

T-Mobile and CSC are begging to get punched in the face.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:51:02
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:43:45
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

need more sun wrote:

> The other issue is that if the substance is no longer on WADA's banned
> list, it suggests it doesn't have a substantial performance benefit.

Are you sure about that statement? You mean like caffeine, right?
Sugar and salt also aren't on the list. Why don't you completely remove
them from your diet and see if it affects your performance on a bike ride.

Take care,

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:28:17
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, but they do it on the superficial. They'll soon realize Tyson was
> the best thing the sport ever had.

<snip >

Dumbass -

Tyson was the best they had at the time.

Muhammed Ali was, by far, the best the sport ever had.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 21:02:09
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> When you test positive for a banned substance in a strict liability
> system, there's no such thing as an excuse. The WADA protocol doesn't
> even care what your reason is.

dumbass,

i don't remember the millward case, but the quote above seems to imply
that if she had stated the soov (which happens to be a skin spray) on
the "drug test form" it would've been okay. if not, then what purpose
does that form serve ?

i think it's more odd that gontchar's high hematocrit flew under the
radar during the coverage of last year's tour and now of this massive
t-mobiile house cleaning.

i had to look it up to remember the whole story: in '99 casagrande won
the suisse tour and looked good going into the tour but his vini
caldirola teamate gontchar got caught over 50% and they lost their
starting slot.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:31:21
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>
>
>>When you test positive for a banned substance in a strict liability
>>system, there's no such thing as an excuse. The WADA protocol doesn't
>>even care what your reason is.
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> i don't remember the millward case, but the quote above seems to imply
> that if she had stated the soov (which happens to be a skin spray) on
> the "drug test form" it would've been okay. if not, then what purpose
> does that form serve ?

I'm note sure Wilson and the Aussie federation is stating that
accurately. Wilson was obligated to follow UCI doping code and not just
the Aussie code.

Also, I don't trust anything the Aussie federation said in their ruling
or their logic. Had USADA and CAS handled the Millward case, she would
have been suspended. You are taking everything the Aussie federation
says at face value. I am not.

Ask yourself this question, and be honest: If Tyler Hamilton's blood
doping case was adjudicated by Jim "iShares" Ochowicz and the rest of
the USAC cabal, do you really think they would have found Hailton guilty?

Also, if Landis's case was sent to USAC for a ruling (instead of USADA
and CAS) do you really think Floyd would be in the predicament he is now?

The Aussie federation evaluating a doping test of its #1 women's rider
who is on their national team is like your father, mother, and brother
sitting on the jury in your murder trial.

In fact, people who look at the Wilson case can see that it was an "old
system" case, and can read between the lines. Here is what USADA says
about such cases decided by national federations:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11259.0.html

The Beke case gets mentioned a lot," Tygart said, "but no one's actually
seen the test results. No one has really been able to challenge the
witness. Not having seen the data, I can only say that the decision
reeks of the old (pre-WADA) system, where top-level elite athletes are
treated differently than the rest. Hopefully those days are behind us."

> i think it's more odd that gontchar's high hematocrit flew under the
> radar during the coverage of last year's tour and now of this massive
> t-mobiile house cleaning.
>
> i had to look it up to remember the whole story: in '99 casagrande won
> the suisse tour and looked good going into the tour but his vini
> caldirola teamate gontchar got caught over 50% and they lost their
> starting slot.
>

If someone were to list all the dopers who were caught in cycling
playing games, it would exceed the number of people on the planet earth.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:20:16
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> It's like telling a cop you shouldn't arrested for DWI because you had a
> really good reason to get drunk.

I always have a good reason to get drunk. But that isn't why I should
not be arrested.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 10:12:20
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:

> I always have a good reason to get drunk.

Something to do with all your hard earned tax money going to Iraq.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:14:43
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter or
> a convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.
> ...
> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.

You left out Bob Schwartz as International Irony Association Prezident.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 10:11:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
>> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> You left out Bob Schwartz as International Irony Association Prezident.

What about Cheney as International Ethics Association president.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 15:45:47
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Jan 15, 6:39 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:

My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
nobody
> really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Given that T-Mobile is moralising their asses off and taking a Holier
than Thou stance people should care.
This is Good Ol' Jim and Tammy Fay Baker telling everyone how great
they are and how to live, while being just as corrupt and totally
hypocritical.
Either walk the walk to go with the talk or STFU.
Bill C

Date: 15 Jan 2007 22:38:05
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Bill C wrote:

>
> On Jan 15, 6:39 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
> nobody
>
>>really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Given that T-Mobile is moralising their asses off and taking a Holier
> than Thou stance people should care.
> This is Good Ol' Jim and Tammy Fay Baker telling everyone how great
> they are and how to live, while being just as corrupt and totally
> hypocritical.
> Either walk the walk to go with the talk or STFU.
> Bill C
>

Word BC. Anna Wilson should have sent her resume to this guy:

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=1&id=591881

http://www.kommersant.com/gallery.asp?id=591881&pics_id=17583

She's a perfect fit for Tinkoff.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 19:05:52
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1168904747.086923.285930@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Jan 15, 6:39 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
> nobody
>> really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.- Hide
>> quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
> Given that T-Mobile is moralising their asses off and taking a Holier
> than Thou stance people should care.
> This is Good Ol' Jim and Tammy Fay Baker telling everyone how great
> they are and how to live, while being just as corrupt and totally
> hypocritical.
> Either walk the walk to go with the talk or STFU.
> Bill C
>

Benjo has repeatedly voiced an opinion that it's all part of the game, no
matter that people are posturing otherwise, and that the fans aren't really
that concerned.

Despite noise to the contrary, are Americans really that concerned about
steroids in football? Reference Shawne Merriman who had a four game
suspension for steroids, but finished 3rd in the Associated Press NFL
defensive player of the year awards this season.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 22:46:59
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1168904747.086923.285930@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>>On Jan 15, 6:39 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
>>nobody
>>
>>>really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.- Hide
>>>quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>>
>>Given that T-Mobile is moralising their asses off and taking a Holier
>>than Thou stance people should care.
>>This is Good Ol' Jim and Tammy Fay Baker telling everyone how great
>>they are and how to live, while being just as corrupt and totally
>>hypocritical.
>>Either walk the walk to go with the talk or STFU.
>>Bill C
>>
>
>
> Benjo has repeatedly voiced an opinion that it's all part of the game, no
> matter that people are posturing otherwise, and that the fans aren't really
> that concerned.
>
> Despite noise to the contrary, are Americans really that concerned about
> steroids in football? Reference Shawne Merriman who had a four game
> suspension for steroids, but finished 3rd in the Associated Press NFL
> defensive player of the year awards this season.

Benji is right. I don't care either and few people really do (even those
that get righteous about racing clean, whatever the fuck that means Matt
Decanio). I already told you doping in cycling is like a NASCAR mechanic
trying to get a few more horsepower out of an engine for the Daytona 500
by doing something illegal. It's not really something I lose sleep over
in the whole scheme of life.

But if the sport of cycling, teams, and athletes VOLUNTARILY JOIN
WADA...and then they complain when they get popped for juicing....I'm
gonna rag on them for being dumbasses.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 21:57:28
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote in message
news:flWdnfPxivcp1zHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
> But if the sport of cycling, teams, and athletes VOLUNTARILY JOIN
> WADA...and then they complain when they get popped for juicing....I'm
> gonna rag on them for being dumbasses.
>

Define "voluntarily".

Date: 16 Jan 2007 00:35:44
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:flWdnfPxivcp1zHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>>But if the sport of cycling, teams, and athletes VOLUNTARILY JOIN
>>WADA...and then they complain when they get popped for juicing....I'm
>>gonna rag on them for being dumbasses.
>>
>
>
> Define "voluntarily".

I will answer your underlying question this way: the NBA and NHL are not
members of WADA and their athletes still get to participate in the Olympics.

In fact, the entire Dream Team basketball team in every Olympics comes
entirely from the NBA - none of those guys are subjected to WADA testing.

Cycling only joined WADA because the UCI and national federations wanted
to retain control over athlete selections for the Olympics. The power
of selecting athletes for the Olympcis is what gives UCI and USAC its
power. That's why they were "forced" to jon WADA - because of their own
greed to control these selections.

The NBA has no such selection power, and simply created a dummy national
basketball federation that picks their players anyway, thus insulating
all NBA players from WADA testing unless they're at the Games itself of
course.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 09:59:28
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>But if the sport of cycling, teams, and athletes VOLUNTARILY JOIN
>>>WADA...and then they complain when they get popped for juicing....I'm
>>>gonna rag on them for being dumbasses.

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> Define "voluntarily".

> Cycling only joined WADA because the UCI and national federations wanted
> to retain control over athlete selections for the Olympics. The power
> of selecting athletes for the Olympcis is what gives UCI and USAC its
> power. That's why they were "forced" to jon WADA - because of their own
> greed to control these selections.

So the cyclists didn't volunteer to join, just that bastion of democracy,
the UCI.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:33:16
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Donald Munro wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>>>>But if the sport of cycling, teams, and athletes VOLUNTARILY JOIN
>>>>WADA...and then they complain when they get popped for juicing....I'm
>>>>gonna rag on them for being dumbasses.
>
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
>>>Define "voluntarily".
>
>
>>Cycling only joined WADA because the UCI and national federations wanted
>>to retain control over athlete selections for the Olympics. The power
>>of selecting athletes for the Olympcis is what gives UCI and USAC its
>>power. That's why they were "forced" to jon WADA - because of their own
>>greed to control these selections.
>
>
> So the cyclists didn't volunteer to join, just that bastion of democracy,
> the UCI.
>

When you take out a UCI racing license, you expressly agree to abide by
all the rules of the federation to which you become a licensee. So,
yes, all cyclists agree. And they do so voluntarily - absolutely.

If a rider disagreed with the WADA code, they should not take out a
racing license with the UCI. And all cyclists certainly have this option.

This is why Floyd's complaints about WADA unfairness is bizarre. He,
his team, and his managers - all agreed to be subjected to the very same
rules and regs he is now calling unfair.

Surely he knew these rules and knew of the "unfair" WADA process before
he took out a license? And if he didn't then he needs to find better
managers to inform him of the unfair process he would endure if he
tested positive.

Did Floyd donate money to any athlete fighting a doping sanction prior
to his case? If not, then I think that says something about Floyd's
altruism.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 15:06:06
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:

> > Dumbass -
> >
> >
> > I'm not following this. Care to explain?
> >
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > K. Gringioni. (dumbass)
>
> dumbass,
>
> i don't know what part of the explanation you're looking for. if you're
> referring to andersen : i recall that kim andersen failed three dope
> tests and was given a (short lived) lifetime ban from the sport. i
> think he was on lemond's Z team at the time.

Dumbass -

I got my Andersons (Andersens) mixed up.

thanks for clearing it up,

K. Gringioni.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 14:06:03
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Jan 15, 2:52 am, MagillaGorilla <MagillaGori...@zoo.com > wrote:
Anna Wilson is the only women's team D.S. who ever tested positive for
a
> banned substance. And she works for T-Mobile, who is holding itself out
> as the most righteous team in professional cycling in terms of anti-doping.
>
> This is a PR disaster.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Magilla- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Damn we are in agreement again if you make that "Should be a PR
disaster." If the German televion folks had any guts and real courage
they'd tell T-Mobile that since they have stated they would not show
"dopers" that Wilson violates that and they will not televise any race
with T-Mobile in it since they have chosen to reward a doper with a
management position.
Wont happen though.
They should just show the damn races, no matter who's there and do the
commentary they want on the subject.
Bill C

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:51:07
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Bill C wrote:

>
> On Jan 15, 2:52 am, MagillaGorilla <MagillaGori...@zoo.com> wrote:
> Anna Wilson is the only women's team D.S. who ever tested positive for
> a
>
>>banned substance. And she works for T-Mobile, who is holding itself out
>>as the most righteous team in professional cycling in terms of anti-doping.
>>
>>This is a PR disaster.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Magilla- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Damn we are in agreement again if you make that "Should be a PR
> disaster." If the German televion folks had any guts and real courage
> they'd tell T-Mobile that since they have stated they would not show
> "dopers" that Wilson violates that and they will not televise any race
> with T-Mobile in it since they have chosen to reward a doper with a
> management position.
> Wont happen though.
> They should just show the damn races, no matter who's there and do the
> commentary they want on the subject.
> Bill C
>

$20 says the German TV people don't even know about Wilson's positive
test. I bet you Stapleton might not even know it.

You know Wilson refers to it as a non-incident because the Aussie
federation whitewashed it. How an athlete can be acquitted of a doping
charge when she tests positive for a banned susbtance is beyond my
rationalization skills.

But apparently not T-Mobile's.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 12:57:52
From: kgleason
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
> >
> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >
> >-------------
> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>
> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> racing.
> --
> JT

It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
all are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
saddle time.

The one time my number was drawn for a random test, I did disclose
topical use from some sort of over-the-counter stuff. Lanacane, I
think. Of course, that may beg the question of why some part-time hack
knew to disclose this and she did not.

Kathleen

Date: 15 Jan 2007 12:55:50
From: kgleason
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
> >
> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >
> >-------------
> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>
> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> racing.
> --
> JT

It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
saddle time.

The one time my number was drawn for a random test, I did disclose
topical use from some sort of over-the-counter stuff. Lanacane, I
think.

Kathleen

Date: 15 Jan 2007 21:55:10
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

kgleason wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>><MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>>
>>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>>
>>>-------------
>>
>>I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
>>banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>>
>>If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
>>what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
>>racing.
>>--
>>JT
>
>
> It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
> is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
> boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
> can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
> saddle time.
>
>
> Kathleen
>

I have a tent set up at many women's NRC stage races where I offer FREE
applications of lidocaine.

I give back to the sport. I don't just take.

Magilleen

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:57:58
From: ST
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On 1/15/07 6:55 PM, in article fl-dnQ1wCe8TozHYUSdV9g@ptd.net,
"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

> kgleason wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>>>
>>>> Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>>> Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>>>
>>>> -------------
>>>
>>> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
>>> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>>>
>>> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
>>> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
>>> racing.
>>> --
>>> JT
>>
>>
>> It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
>> is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
>> boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
>> can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
>> saddle time.
>>
>>
>> Kathleen
>>
>
>
> I have a tent set up at many women's NRC stage races where I offer FREE
> applications of lidocaine.
>
> I give back to the sport. I don't just take.
>
>
> Magilleen
>

Now we are getting somewhere.......
So are you a fufu massage therapist?

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:40:11
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On 15 Jan 2007 12:55:50 -0800, "kgleason" <katscos@yahoo.com > wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>> >
>> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>> >
>> >-------------
>> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
>> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>>
>> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
>> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
>> racing.
>> --
>> JT
>
>It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
>is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
>boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
>can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
>saddle time.

Yeah, the two women I know who used lidocaine both did the HP Women's
Classic. Though only one of them used it at that race I think -- the
other had it for a reason related to childbirth.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 15 Jan 2007 23:43:05
From: Steven Bornfeld
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2007 12:55:50 -0800, "kgleason" <katscos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>>>
>>>> Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>>> Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>>>
>>>> -------------
>>> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
>>> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>>>
>>> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
>>> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
>>> racing.
>>> --
>>> JT
>> It is banned if it shows up in your blood, but I do not know if there
>> is a threshold amount (and do not care enough to look it up). What you
>> boys are missing is that a topical ointment with a 'caine of some sort
>> can be indispensible for women who do stage races. That is a lot of
>> saddle time.
>
> Yeah, the two women I know who used lidocaine both did the HP Women's
> Classic. Though only one of them used it at that race I think -- the
> other had it for a reason related to childbirth.

Any woman using topical lido for childbirth gets full tough-guy points.
They may use them in epidurals, though--not sure.
I of course use lidocaine every day.

Stev

Date: 15 Jan 2007 11:25:07
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> >
> > Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
> > suspension" Kim Andersen.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> I'm not following this. Care to explain?
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni. (dumbass)

dumbass,

i don't know what part of the explanation you're looking for. if you're
referring to andersen : i recall that kim andersen failed three dope
tests and was given a (short lived) lifetime ban from the sport. i
think he was on lemond's Z team at the time.

the rule at the time was that the first offence was a DQ, second
offense was a suspension and third offence was a lifetime ban.

also, in an interview lemond says that he had a team mate in the early
90s (gan days probably) who hopped on the EPO train and went to
mercatone uno and was dead soon. i don't recall that, does anyone know
who he's referrring to ? i remember draaijer, but that was 1990 and pdm
(lemond's team in '88).

Date: 15 Jan 2007 09:52:44
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
> suspension" Kim Andersen.

Dumbass -

I'm not following this. Care to explain?

thanks,

K. Gringioni. (dumbass)

Date: 15 Jan 2007 17:39:30
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1168883559.769509.3540@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>> Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
>> suspension" Kim Andersen.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> I'm not following this. Care to explain?
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni. (dumbass)
>

My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like nobody
really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.

Date: 17 Jan 2007 20:33:24
From: Kyle Legate
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1168883559.769509.3540@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>> Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
>>> suspension" Kim Andersen.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dumbass -
>>
>>
>> I'm not following this. Care to explain?
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> K. Gringioni. (dumbass)
>>
>
> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like nobody
> really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.
>
>
You should edit his wiki page. That juicy morsel is not mentioned.

Date: 17 Jan 2007 18:54:31
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Kyle Legate" <legatek@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:517bvuF1i4ja2U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
>> nobody really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted
>> murderer.
> You should edit his wiki page. That juicy morsel is not mentioned.

Evidently I'm full of revelations this week.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 22:35:17
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1168883559.769509.3540@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>>>Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
>>>suspension" Kim Andersen.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Dumbass -
>>
>>
>>I'm not following this. Care to explain?
>>
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>K. Gringioni. (dumbass)
>>
>
>
> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like nobody
> really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.
>
>

Don King isn't keting himself as a peace activist. He's keting
himself as the best promoter in one of the most violent sports in the
world. Being a convict actually gives him street cred.

Anna Wilson's positive dope test is a serious PR problem for a team that
claims to be the cleanest team in the game (unlike King, this is a
core business philosophy conflict for T-Mobile). Couldn't they find a
D.S. who didn't test positive for a banned substance? Is that really
asking too much given their Mr. Clean soap box and gratuitously
righteous team presentation?

Did you read the articles on Velonws and cyclingnews...they went out of
their way to talk about how great their self-policing and anti-doping
internal controls are.

And they do this how - by hiring a rider who tested positive as their
women's team D.S.?

Carl, I'm laughing my ass off over here. This is a major PR fuck-up.

To wit, they talk about transparency - but nowhere do they mention this
positive test for their new D.S. That sounds like omerta to me.

If the T-Mobile presentation happened on April 1, people might actually
misinterpet articles of Anna Wilson's hiring as an April Fool's parody.
That's how goddamn funny it is.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 21:55:46
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:14:17
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4lqdnYVp1oxr2jHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>>>My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
>>>nobody really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted
>>>murderer.
>>
>>Don King isn't keting himself as a peace activist. He's keting
>>himself as the best promoter in one of the most violent sports in the
>>world. Being a convict actually gives him street cred.
>>
>
>
> Are you saying boxing hasn't tried to seperate itself from an image of thug
> life?

Yeah, but they do it on the superficial. They'll soon realize Tyson was
the best thing the sport ever had. WWE actually tries to increase the
thug-factor of its stars and it has resulted in a ratings bonanza.

Ultimate fighting is even better. And at the top of the thug-factor
popularity is Grand Theft Auto.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 21:53:19
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote in message
news:4lqdnYVp1oxr2jHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...

>>
>> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
>> nobody really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted
>> murderer.
>
> Don King isn't keting himself as a peace activist. He's keting
> himself as the best promoter in one of the most violent sports in the
> world. Being a convict actually gives him street cred.
>
> Anna Wilson's positive dope test is a serious PR problem for a team that
> claims to be the cleanest team in the game (unlike King, this is a core
> business philosophy conflict for T-Mobile). Couldn't they find a D.S. who
> didn't test positive for a banned substance? Is that really asking too
> much given their Mr. Clean soap box and gratuitously righteous team
> presentation?
>
> Did you read the articles on Velonws and cyclingnews...they went out of
> their way to talk about how great their self-policing and anti-doping
> internal controls are.
>
> And they do this how - by hiring a rider who tested positive as their
> women's team D.S.?
>
> Carl, I'm laughing my ass off over here. This is a major PR fuck-up.
>
> To wit, they talk about transparency - but nowhere do they mention this
> positive test for their new D.S. That sounds like omerta to me.
>
> If the T-Mobile presentation happened on April 1, people might actually
> misinterpet articles of Anna Wilson's hiring as an April Fool's parody.
> That's how goddamn funny it is.
>
>
> Magilla

Like I said, if it's a major PR fuck-up why didn't anybody jump on the very
similar CSC/Kim Andersen thing last year when CSC yanked Basso for the
second half of the season?

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:00:09
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4lqdnYVp1oxr2jHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>
>>>My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
>>>nobody really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted
>>>murderer.
>>
>>Don King isn't keting himself as a peace activist. He's keting
>>himself as the best promoter in one of the most violent sports in the
>>world. Being a convict actually gives him street cred.
>>
>>Anna Wilson's positive dope test is a serious PR problem for a team that
>>claims to be the cleanest team in the game (unlike King, this is a core
>>business philosophy conflict for T-Mobile). Couldn't they find a D.S. who
>>didn't test positive for a banned substance? Is that really asking too
>>much given their Mr. Clean soap box and gratuitously righteous team
>>presentation?
>>
>>Did you read the articles on Velonws and cyclingnews...they went out of
>>their way to talk about how great their self-policing and anti-doping
>>internal controls are.
>>
>>And they do this how - by hiring a rider who tested positive as their
>>women's team D.S.?
>>
>>Carl, I'm laughing my ass off over here. This is a major PR fuck-up.
>>
>>To wit, they talk about transparency - but nowhere do they mention this
>>positive test for their new D.S. That sounds like omerta to me.
>>
>>If the T-Mobile presentation happened on April 1, people might actually
>>misinterpet articles of Anna Wilson's hiring as an April Fool's parody.
>>That's how goddamn funny it is.
>>
>>
>>Magilla
>
>
> Like I said, if it's a major PR fuck-up why didn't anybody jump on the very
> similar CSC/Kim Andersen thing last year when CSC yanked Basso for the
> second half of the season?
>
>

CSC hired Andersen before the creation and implementation of WADA. In
the pre-WADA era, national federations whitewhased doping cases. If
Andersen was busted in that kind of pro-athlete system, he must have
been doped to the gills. Him and Riis were probably pushing 65%
hematocrits for the majority of their career.

But prior to WADA's existence, I don't recall cycling thinking doping
was a big deal. It was still a forgive and forget mentality. Even after
the Festina affair, people were thinking that was confined to only a few
riders and teams.

Opercion Puerto, Landis, Museuuw, pros testing positive for EPO left and
right...these all changed the sentiment (between 2001 to present).

I don't think Riis could hire Andersen today. T-Mobile hired Anna
Wilson at the height of the anti-doping movement in cycling. And the
team who hired her is presenting itself as 'the' preeminent Mr. and Mrs.
Clean team in the sport.

Like I said, had Tinkoff hired Wilson, it's tough to make a scandal out
of that given this photo:

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=1&id=591881

But T-Mobile is a totally different story (go read Velonews and
cyclingews about their Holier-Than-Thou anti-doping team presentation).

Part of the problem are the pussy reporters who cover cycling and are
afraid to point out these things about the teams or riders because they
want to be all chummy with them during the races (and depend on industry
advertisers for most of their operating revenue). As a result, most
cycling journalists are really cheerleaders for the sport.

The guys at L'Equipe are a different animal of course. If you think for
one minute the guys at Velonews or cyclingnews or Pro Cycling or Road
Magazine would have conducted a sting operation on LA's urine samples
from the 99 Tour like the reporter from L'Equipe did, you're crazy.

Sports reporters didn't break the BALCO scandal, trust me.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 10:37:17
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote in message
news:w3-dnQG46qN39DHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
> CSC hired Andersen before the creation and implementation of WADA. In the
> pre-WADA era, national federations whitewhased doping cases.

Timeline

1999 - WADA founded
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=253

2001 - CSC began sponsoring cycling
http://www.csc.com/mms/cycling/en/

2004 - Kim Andersen joined CSC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Andersen

>
> But T-Mobile is a totally different story (go read Velonews and cyclingews
> about their Holier-Than-Thou anti-doping team presentation).
>

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/nov06/nov13news2

Different story?

If he can terminate his star rider, why can't he terminate a staff member?

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:20:15
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:w3-dnQG46qN39DHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...

>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/nov06/nov13news2
>
> Different story?
>
> If he can terminate his star rider, why can't he terminate a staff member?

It definitely appears to be an isomer to the Anna Wilson/T-Mobile PR
debacle.

In fact Andersen would have a super-tough time denying he was a hardcore
doper.

The cycling media is a disgrace for not talking about these two things.
I bet you if they did both Andersen and Wilson would have to be let
go. Because there's really no way - especially for those 2 teams we're
talking about given their righteous anti-doping policies - to hire
people who tested positive for banned substances, as there are simply
too many other more qualified people who have never tested positive.

There's no real reason to risk hiring Andersen or Wilson because neither
has a proven track record as a genius race tactician.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 13:04:21
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:w3-dnQG46qN39DHYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>>CSC hired Andersen before the creation and implementation of WADA. In the
>>pre-WADA era, national federations whitewhased doping cases.
>
>
> Timeline
>
> 1999 - WADA founded
> http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=253
>
> 2001 - CSC began sponsoring cycling
> http://www.csc.com/mms/cycling/en/
>
> 2004 - Kim Andersen joined CSC
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Andersen

I stand corrected (I never did research the timeline). But this just
proves my second point - that the reporters in this sport are
cheerleaders for the sport. They're a joke.

Riis got away with it because nobody in cycling wrote about Andersen's
history. Thus, there was no pressure on Riis or CSC to respond to
articles in the media because none were ever published. Putting pressure
on public and corporate entities to be held accountable is actually one
of the main functions of a free press.

In fact, all the doping scandals that are reported in the cycling media
are basically plagiarized and regurgitated from the work done by other
reputable newspapers (L'Equipe, El Pais).

Cycling reporters aren't real journalists even though they think they
are although I will say that Jeff Jones did some really good technical
articles that separates him from the cheerleaders. So did Anthony Tan:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/hamilton_appeal

Your revelation of Andersen's history and my revelation of Wilson's
history in here are better journalism than you will ever see in any
cycling magazine. They're too busy publishing team press releases and
quid pro quo advertisements under the guise of technical reviews, and
asking softball questions to their "buddy" riders.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 17:41:30
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote in message
news:hhUqh.11$lc5.1@newsfe20.lga...
>
> My point is that Anna Wilson on T-Mobile is a PR non-issue. Just like
> nobody really cares that boxing promotor Don King is a convicted murderer.

(Waiting for somebody to say that boxing is a dying sport.)

Date: 15 Jan 2007 06:42:24
From: need more sun
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Hey, couple of points. Re the title 'Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of
Sport Hypocrisy', you need to work out if you are here to troll and
wind people up, or if you are serious. A couple of weeks ago you were
arguing clean riders like Voeckler were pussies and instead should all
be doping, now you are whiter than white. So what is it to be?

The hypocrisy you refer to is saying doping is all fine and dandy one
week, then getting all self-righteous the next.

Some quotes by you in that Voeckler thread:

"I already explained to you why doping is no more cheating than an
offensive lineman holding a defensive guy or an NBA player fouling a
guy who's a poor free throw shooter. "

"I don't like riders unless they win. I don't care how they win, so
long as they win. Sponsors also like riders who win. That's why
Lance was paid more money than Ernie Lechuga."

"Doping is no more unethical than sleeping in an altitude tent or
training at altitude. One's a rule violation, the other isn't. Big
whoop. If I were a coach, I'd do away with all these Internet training
programs and just take the autologous blood doping to a new level. All
my riders would be trained fluently in how to use a centrifuge in a
motel room no matter what kind of electrical outlet it had (European,
American, Asian)."

"If Vaughters knew how to run a pro team he'd be putting his guys on
the same Spring training program as the Gewiss Team in '94."

"I just want to see the ridrs go fast - I don't give a fuck about what
rule they violated. The only thing that matters is getting caught. If
your caught, then a director needs to badmoutht he rider int he press
and wash his hands clean. But that's just for show and for appearances
sake."

So it is you who is the hypocrite...

Secondly, if Anna W. was using a product provided to her by the AIS,
then that is clearly like the Greg Rusedski case. He was cleared of his
nandrolone charge as it emerged that the contaminated supplement was
provided to him by the tennis governing body's OWN coaches. That's very
different to going off and finding a product yourself.

Thirdly, the sport is turning a corner. Let's think for a moment: Anna
failed the test, using a product given to her by the AIS. She is
cleared on the grounds that they fucked up. She never failed another
test. She is now part of a team which is making a serious (and
expensive) drive to clean up the sport. T-Mobile have been very
transparent about this and the team needs to be applauded for this
stance. If more teams adopted this approach, we'd all be a lot better
off.

Frankly, for you to get up on a pedestal a couple of weeks after
writing the crap you wrote above is mind-boggling. Gorillas may be a
protected species but you are a waste of space...

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>
> Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>
> -------------
>
> So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
> manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
> #1-ranked cyclist in the world?
>
> Anna Wilson (formerly Millward) tested positive for lidocaine back in
> 2001. Note the excuse she used would never hold water under the current
> WADA system, and she should have been banned for 2 years since this
> happened after the creation of WADA.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/aug01/aug25news.php
>
> Note: the article in cyclingnews is misleading in that it fails to say
> that lidocaine was on the banned list (which it was). Instead it makes
> a meaningless declaration that is designed to imply just the opposite is
> true (that the substance that contaiined the lidocaine itself wasn't
> banned - this is nothing but a play on words):
>
> ------------
> At the time the positive test was announced in July, Millward told
> Cyclingnews that the substance was "a product called 'Soov' which is in
> all A.I.S. medical kits and is not be banned under Australian
> regulations. My main error was in not writing down that I used 'Soov' on
> my drug test form as if I had done that then the Lidocaine in my urine
> would have been explained, and it would not have registered as a
> positive test."
> ------------
>
> FACT: Lidocaine was on the UCI and Aussie banned list in 2001.
>
> Had Millward used this excuse to USADA or in the Olympics she would have
> been banned under the strict liability system. It is unclear why she
> wasn't banned. Simply listing lidocaine on your form does not give you
> a retoractive TUE to use it, which Millward didn't have. This was a
> corrupt decision by the Aussie national federation to cover up a failed
> dope test by their star rider and the facts are not in dispute.
>
> It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
> test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
> "turning over a new leaf."
>
> (Note: since like 2002, the UCI routinely appeals decisions like the one
> made by the Aussie federation to acquit their riders in clear-cut failed
> doping cases like Millward, and the CAS always argues the national
> federations acted improperly in not finding the athlete guilty because
> their excuse is not relevant in a strict liability system. All Millward
> and the Aussie federation did is explain why she tested positive for a
> banned substance! This excuse isn't even allowed under the current
> system and it is unclear why Aussie federation was never taken to task
> on this by the UCI.)
>
> I know if I were a pro rider and wanted to use lidocaine in a controlled
> doping program, I would invent as my "drop story" that it was from an
> innocent susbtance for mosquito bites.
>
> I think the women have "Die Lidocaine" painted on their frames.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Magilla
> "Die Samsonite"
> Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of Sport Hypocrisy

Date: 15 Jan 2007 12:10:53
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

need more sun wrote:

> Hey, couple of points. Re the title 'Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of
> Sport Hypocrisy', you need to work out if you are here to troll and
> wind people up, or if you are serious. A couple of weeks ago you were
> arguing clean riders like Voeckler were pussies and instead should all
> be doping, now you are whiter than white. So what is it to be?
>
> The hypocrisy you refer to is saying doping is all fine and dandy one
> week, then getting all self-righteous the next.
>
> Some quotes by you in that Voeckler thread:
>
> "I already explained to you why doping is no more cheating than an
> offensive lineman holding a defensive guy or an NBA player fouling a
> guy who's a poor free throw shooter. "
>
> "I don't like riders unless they win. I don't care how they win, so
> long as they win. Sponsors also like riders who win. That's why
> Lance was paid more money than Ernie Lechuga."
>
> "Doping is no more unethical than sleeping in an altitude tent or
> training at altitude. One's a rule violation, the other isn't. Big
> whoop. If I were a coach, I'd do away with all these Internet training
> programs and just take the autologous blood doping to a new level. All
> my riders would be trained fluently in how to use a centrifuge in a
> motel room no matter what kind of electrical outlet it had (European,
> American, Asian)."
>
> "If Vaughters knew how to run a pro team he'd be putting his guys on
> the same Spring training program as the Gewiss Team in '94."
>
> "I just want to see the ridrs go fast - I don't give a fuck about what
> rule they violated. The only thing that matters is getting caught. If
> your caught, then a director needs to badmoutht he rider int he press
> and wash his hands clean. But that's just for show and for appearances
> sake."
>
>
> So it is you who is the hypocrite...

I am not a hypocrite. Violating the rules in pro sports is routine (you
get what's called a penalty). A pro player is suppose to push the
limits of the rules and even must step over them because they know more
times than not they will not get caught. Professional sports is about
taking everything to the limit.

I would only be a hypocrite if I actually took a moral position on
doping. I have no moral position on doping.

It's like asking me if I think it's wrong or immoral for an offensive
lineman to hold a defensive player to prevent his quarterback from being
sacked during the playoffs even though he knows it's a rule violation.
Sure, it's a rule violation to hold, but so fucking what?

The best pro players can hold a lineman without the ref knowing it.
Those are the guys I respect. The best basketball players can interfere
with a shooter without the ref even seeing it as a foul. The best
hockey players check other players when they see the ref turn his head
away from them. This list goes on and on...

Doping in cycling is no different than the chief mechanic of a NASCAR
team violating a rule to get a few more horsepower out of an engine for
the Daytona 500.

Only in cycling do people try to get all morally righteous about what
other sports routinely sweep under the rug in the name of 'cost of doing
business.'

Do you know why the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL aren't a part of WADA? I'll
tell you.

Because they are st enough to know that you don't cut off your arm
because you broke your fingernail.

Cycling should never have joined WADA. But now that they did, they
can't complain. Otherwise, that's hypocrisy.

It can be argued that had Arnold Schwarzenegger never taken steroids, he
might have never become Mr. Universe...never had a movie career...never
become governator. Drugs have put a lot of gold medals and world
championship jerseys in a lot of athletes' homes. Look at what drugs
did for Ullrich, Hamilton, Museuuw, Camendzind, Millar, Riis...

Drugs build careers; they build legends.

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 18:52:08
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

>
> Drugs build careers; they build legends.
>

And think where you'ld be without roofies.

--
Bill Asher

Date: 15 Jan 2007 15:25:32
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

William Asher wrote:
> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> Drugs build careers; they build legends.
>>
>
> And think where you'ld be without roofies.
>

Even worse, where would you be without floories?

Date: 15 Jan 2007 11:45:41
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Date: 15 Jan 2007 09:49:31
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
<MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.

Sorry, I'm stuck on the 'taking over the reigns' bit (and wondering
why JT hasn't mentioned it already). I knew this would happen when I
let my Velonews subscription lapse and ceased* all remote editorial
view. Horrors, where are the standards? Jeff, no comment?

The drug crap can wait until we get the real issues under control.
Anyway, women can take all the drugs they want, so long as it doesn't
turn them ugly or give them fat legs. There is a dual standard to be
maintained here.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

* Note: using 'seized' in place of 'ceased' would be in rbr tradition,
but might confuse Magilla.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 02:24:42
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article
<5l4nq2durr8ejl442jt8bu3ntuc9r7nof3@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>
> Sorry, I'm stuck on the 'taking over the reigns' bit (and wondering
> why JT hasn't mentioned it already).

Did you see this?
In article <FyadnV14PdZjPjfYUSdV9g@ptd.net >,
MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>
> Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>
> -------------
>
> So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
> manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
> #1-ranked cyclist in the world?

--
Michael Press

Date: 16 Jan 2007 09:08:38
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:24:42 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:

>In article
><5l4nq2durr8ejl442jt8bu3ntuc9r7nof3@4ax.com>,
> Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>> >Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm stuck on the 'taking over the reigns' bit (and wondering
>> why JT hasn't mentioned it already).
>
>Did you see this?
>In article <FyadnV14PdZjPjfYUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
> MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>
>> Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>> Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>
>> -------------
>>
>> So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
>> manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
>> #1-ranked cyclist in the world?

My abject apologies - it was a touch subtle in placement, but there
nonetheless.

I feel like someone reined on my parade.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 16 Jan 2007 12:41:51
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Curtis L. Russell wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:24:42 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article
>><5l4nq2durr8ejl442jt8bu3ntuc9r7nof3@4ax.com>,
>>Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>>><MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>>
>>>Sorry, I'm stuck on the 'taking over the reigns' bit (and wondering
>>>why JT hasn't mentioned it already).
>>
>>Did you see this?
>>In article <FyadnV14PdZjPjfYUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
>>MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>>
>>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>>
>>>-------------
>>>
>>>So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
>>>manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
>>>#1-ranked cyclist in the world?
>
>
> My abject apologies - it was a touch subtle in placement, but there
> nonetheless.
>
> I feel like someone reined on my parade.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

All that faux witty writing just because you were trying to say I
spelled reign incorrectly?

Do you really think I meant a horse's bridle strap, douchebag?

The people I have to deal with in here....

Magilla

Date: 17 Jan 2007 09:46:20
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <t_KcnZeIzZj9kzDYUSdV9g@ptd.net >,
MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:24:42 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article
> >><5l4nq2durr8ejl442jt8bu3ntuc9r7nof3@4ax.com>,
> >>Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> >>><MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >>>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >>>
> >>>Sorry, I'm stuck on the 'taking over the reigns' bit (and wondering
> >>>why JT hasn't mentioned it already).
> >>
> >>Did you see this?
> >>In article <FyadnV14PdZjPjfYUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
> >>MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
> >>>
> >>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
> >>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
> >>>
> >>>-------------
> >>>
> >>>So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
> >>>manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
> >>>#1-ranked cyclist in the world?
> >
> >
> > My abject apologies - it was a touch subtle in placement, but there
> > nonetheless.
> >
> > I feel like someone reined on my parade.
> >
> > Curtis L. Russell
> > Odenton, MD (USA)
> > Just someone on two wheels...
>
>
> All that faux witty writing just because you were trying to say I
> spelled reign incorrectly?
>
> Do you really think I meant a horse's bridle strap, douchebag?
>
> The people I have to deal with in here....

Rats. For a minute I thought you had the other half of
that wit.

--
Michael Press

Date: 14 Jan 2007 23:06:05
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>
> > Mr. Softee,
> >
> > Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
> > less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>
> There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
> positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
> contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the banned
> substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.
> In the Millward case, lidocaine was listed.

You're kidding. I mean, I know you're kidding, but let us
continue this charade. How do you know their positive
results were due to contaminated supplements? And, uh,
what about the strict liability thing?

> > If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
> > Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
> > You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.
> >
>
> I do not say this distinction makes Moninger and Neben innocent (it
> doesn't). However, I am saying it makes Millward more culpable since
> she doesn't even claim contamination.
>
> The second distinction is both Moninger and Neben admit to taking the
> supplements on their own free volition. Millward, however says that a
> doctor gave her this ointment. What cyclist allows doctors to give them
> prescription ointments and then doesn't even bother to check the
> ingredients against the banned list?
>
> And Millward claims she is an attorney. Is she lucid?

Dumbass,

If nobody who ever used a banned substance could be a team
director, cycling would be run by ... by ... I don't know, maybe the
guy who directs this team:
<http://www.project5racing.com/staticpages//index.php?page=20030203204820497 >
Or Laudien. I spose Laudien's never touched the hot sauce.

In the meantime, you're making trolling mileage by comparing
lidocaine unfavorably to 19-norandrosterone. I henceforth
dub thee Magilla Nandrorilla.

Ben
RBR Contaminant

Date: 15 Jan 2007 02:52:06
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>>bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mr. Softee,
>>>
>>>Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
>>>less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>>
>>There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
>>positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
>>contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the banned
>>substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.
>>In the Millward case, lidocaine was listed.
>
>
> You're kidding. I mean, I know you're kidding, but let us
> continue this charade. How do you know their positive
> results were due to contaminated supplements? And, uh,
> what about the strict liability thing?
>
>
>>>If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
>>>Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
>>>You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.
>>>
>>
>>I do not say this distinction makes Moninger and Neben innocent (it
>>doesn't). However, I am saying it makes Millward more culpable since
>>she doesn't even claim contamination.
>>
>>The second distinction is both Moninger and Neben admit to taking the
>>supplements on their own free volition. Millward, however says that a
>>doctor gave her this ointment. What cyclist allows doctors to give them
>>prescription ointments and then doesn't even bother to check the
>>ingredients against the banned list?
>>
>>And Millward claims she is an attorney. Is she lucid?
>
>
> Dumbass,
>
> If nobody who ever used a banned substance could be a team
> director, cycling would be run by ... by ... I don't know, maybe the
> guy who directs this team:
> <http://www.project5racing.com/staticpages//index.php?page=20030203204820497>
> Or Laudien. I spose Laudien's never touched the hot sauce.
>
> In the meantime, you're making trolling mileage by comparing
> lidocaine unfavorably to 19-norandrosterone. I henceforth
> dub thee Magilla Nandrorilla.
>
> Ben
> RBR Contaminant
>

Anna Wilson is the only women's team D.S. who ever tested positive for a
banned substance. And she works for T-Mobile, who is holding itself out
as the most righteous team in professional cycling in terms of anti-doping.

This is a PR disaster.

Thanks,

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 02:45:01
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>>bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mr. Softee,
>>>
>>>Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
>>>less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>>
>>There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
>>positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
>>contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the banned
>>substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.
>>In the Millward case, lidocaine was listed.
>
>
> You're kidding. I mean, I know you're kidding, but let us
> continue this charade. How do you know their positive
> results were due to contaminated supplements? And, uh,
> what about the strict liability thing?
>

I don't and it should be assumed those 2 cases weren't necessarily due
to contaminated supplements. I agree they should have been suspended
under the strict liability system, and they were. However, Millward
should also have been suspended. I never said Neben and Moninger could
be proven innocent (they can't). What I meant was if you take
everyone's word at face value that the ingestion was accidental
(Moninger, Neben, Wilson), then Wilson is most culpabale because
lidocaine was listed on the product she took.

Whereas in Neben and Moninger's case it was not listed.

However, if you're going on the premise that everyone did it
intentionally then Wilson is not more culpable.

Also, Neben and Moninger were both suspended and paid a price. Wilson
was not. So Wilson gets no sympathy since she benefitted from Aussie's
corrupt system.

Had Wilson's case come before USADA she would have been suspended and
her excuse that worked before the Aussie kangaroo court would never fly
before USADA or the CAS.

In fact, WADA and USADA were created because of decisions like the
Millward case where national federations cover-up positive tests of
their star athletes.

Millward's excuse is like a drunk driver telling a cop that he shouldn't
be arrested because the party he went to was really really good and he
wasn't keeping track of the amount of alcohol he drank.

It's bizarre to hire someone with this mentality to be the D.S. of a
team you are selling to the public in a media campaign as a drug-free
team with this supposed new impeccable management team.

Wilson has the rationalization skills of an accomplished Euro-doper.
And her positive test and rationalizations are a matter of public record.

Why would T-Mobile hire her of all people?

Magilla

Date: 14 Jan 2007 18:23:21
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> What I am saying is national federatons (see Strock and
> Kaiter v. USAC, also Eddie B. 1984 Olympics) have a history of
> administering rider doping programs, oftentimes without the riders'
> knowledge let alone consent. In fact, it's custoy that team
> physicians in Europe and elsewhere administrate the doping programs of
> athletes. Athletes have no fucking idea what's going on, as evidenced
> by Millward's lame excuse.

dumbass,

the millward excuse was lame, it might've been overlooked because it
seemed so benign. generally i don't buy the babe in the woods act. i
think pros know exactly what they're doing when they are doping. they
might do it as part of some extensive (mostly legal) medical plan, but
i don't think someone s going to risk their career by not carefully
considering what's going into their bodies.

Date: 14 Jan 2007 22:44:03
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>
>> What I am saying is national federatons (see Strock and
>>Kaiter v. USAC, also Eddie B. 1984 Olympics) have a history of
>>administering rider doping programs, oftentimes without the riders'
>>knowledge let alone consent. In fact, it's custoy that team
>>physicians in Europe and elsewhere administrate the doping programs of
>>athletes. Athletes have no fucking idea what's going on, as evidenced
>>by Millward's lame excuse.
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> the millward excuse was lame, it might've been overlooked because it
> seemed so benign. generally i don't buy the babe in the woods act. i
> think pros know exactly what they're doing when they are doping. they
> might do it as part of some extensive (mostly legal) medical plan, but
> i don't think someone s going to risk their career by not carefully
> considering what's going into their bodies.
>

Dumbass,

When you test positive for a banned substance in a strict liability
system, there's no such thing as an excuse. The WADA protocol doesn't
even care what your reason is.

It's like telling a cop you shouldn't arrested for DWI because you had a
really good reason to get drunk.

Pro cyclists routinely risk their careers over the threat of doping sanc
tions. Routinely. Have you been in a coma for the last 10 years or
something?

Magilla
VISA card holder

Date: 14 Jan 2007 17:57:53
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Jan 14, 8:46 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> MagillaGorilla wrote:
> > Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
> > Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
> > use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
> > listed on the substance in question).Mr. Softee,
>
> Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
> less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>
> If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
> Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
> You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.
>
> Ben

Where the hell did you get the idea Magilla was an Alpha? Shit I'm
old, fat, and broken but I'd UFC fight Magilla for charity, and for
Alpha monkey status. Maybe get Dave Miller, or Ed Dailey to officiate
it.
Bill C

Date: 14 Jan 2007 17:46:29
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
> Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
> use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
> listed on the substance in question).

Mr. Softee,

Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.

If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.

Ben

Date: 15 Jan 2007 10:35:51
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
> Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
> You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.

He likes alpha silverbacks a lot. Not that there's anything wrong with
that of course.

Date: 14 Jan 2007 21:05:22
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>
>>Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
>>Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
>>use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
>>listed on the substance in question).
>
>
> Mr. Softee,
>
> Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
> less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.

There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the banned
substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.

In the Millward case, lidocaine was listed.

> If you're going to troll for zero tolerance, mean it.
> Knock off the creampuff act and stand up like a silverback.
> You're a shame to Alpha Gorillas.
>
> Ben
>

I do not say this distinction makes Moninger and Neben innocent (it
doesn't). However, I am saying it makes Millward more culpable since
she doesn't even claim contamination.

The second distinction is both Moninger and Neben admit to taking the
supplements on their own free volition. Millward, however says that a
doctor gave her this ointment. What cyclist allows doctors to give them
prescription ointments and then doesn't even bother to check the
ingredients against the banned list?

And Millward claims she is an attorney. Is she lucid?

Magilla

Date: 15 Jan 2007 03:02:22
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>
>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
>>> Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
>>> use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
>>> listed on the substance in question).
>>
>>
>> Mr. Softee,
>>
>> Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
>> less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>
> There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
> positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
> contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the banned
> substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.

This repetition of arguments you have already lost is
disquieting. Are you by any chance related to Serdar
Argic? As someone who lives less than a mile from
Robert E. McElwaine I'd be really jazzed if you were.

Bob Schwartz

Date: 14 Jan 2007 22:39:07
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Bob Schwartz wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>
>>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
>>>> Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
>>>> use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
>>>> listed on the substance in question).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Softee,
>>>
>>> Your exoneration of Moninger and Neben, especially as somehow
>>> less culpable than Millward, is bullshit and I think you know it.
>>
>>
>> There is a huge difference. The substance Moninger and Neben tested
>> positive for (19-norandrosterone) was likely due to supplemental
>> contamination. Pretty much everyone agrees with this - i.e. the
>> banned substance was NOT listed on the supplements they were taking.
>
>
> This repetition of arguments you have already lost is
> disquieting. Are you by any chance related to Serdar
> Argic? As someone who lives less than a mile from
> Robert E. McElwaine I'd be really jazzed if you were.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Your disgruntlement is vague and I have no idea how to even respond
since I don't even know what it is you are criticizing - i.e. "the
repetition of [my] arguments" - what the hell does this mean? You're
not even specifying any arguments I have supposedly "lost." Is everyone
suppose to guess which ones they were?

Use links.

Magilla

Date: 14 Jan 2007 18:17:56
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com >
wrote:

>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>
>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>
>-------------
>
>So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
>manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
>#1-ranked cyclist in the world?
>
>Anna Wilson (formerly Millward) tested positive for lidocaine back in
>2001. Note the excuse she used would never hold water under the current
>WADA system, and she should have been banned for 2 years since this
>happened after the creation of WADA.
>
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/aug01/aug25news.php
>
>Note: the article in cyclingnews is misleading in that it fails to say
>that lidocaine was on the banned list (which it was). Instead it makes
>a meaningless declaration that is designed to imply just the opposite is
>true (that the substance that contaiined the lidocaine itself wasn't
>banned - this is nothing but a play on words):
>
>------------
>At the time the positive test was announced in July, Millward told
>Cyclingnews that the substance was "a product called 'Soov' which is in
>all A.I.S. medical kits and is not be banned under Australian
>regulations. My main error was in not writing down that I used 'Soov' on
>my drug test form as if I had done that then the Lidocaine in my urine
>would have been explained, and it would not have registered as a
>positive test."
>------------
>
>FACT: Lidocaine was on the UCI and Aussie banned list in 2001.
>
>Had Millward used this excuse to USADA or in the Olympics she would have
>been banned under the strict liability system. It is unclear why she
>wasn't banned. Simply listing lidocaine on your form does not give you
>a retoractive TUE to use it, which Millward didn't have. This was a
>corrupt decision by the Aussie national federation to cover up a failed
>dope test by their star rider and the facts are not in dispute.
>
>It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
>test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
>"turning over a new leaf."
>
>(Note: since like 2002, the UCI routinely appeals decisions like the one
>made by the Aussie federation to acquit their riders in clear-cut failed
>doping cases like Millward, and the CAS always argues the national
>federations acted improperly in not finding the athlete guilty because
>their excuse is not relevant in a strict liability system. All Millward
>and the Aussie federation did is explain why she tested positive for a
>banned substance! This excuse isn't even allowed under the current
>system and it is unclear why Aussie federation was never taken to task
>on this by the UCI.)
>
>I know if I were a pro rider and wanted to use lidocaine in a controlled
>doping program, I would invent as my "drop story" that it was from an
>innocent susbtance for mosquito bites.
>
>I think the women have "Die Lidocaine" painted on their frames.
>
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Magilla
>"Die Samsonite"
>Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of Sport Hypocrisy

Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!

If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
It aint the dope, you're slow.

Gonna stomp off and cry if you gotta race someone who has the waitress pour him
another refill on the coffee cup?

Ron

Date: 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

RonSonic wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>
>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>
>>-------------
>>
>>So is part of T-Mobile's "new era" of clean cycling to hire a team
>>manager who tested positive for a banned substance while the reining
>>#1-ranked cyclist in the world?
>>
>>Anna Wilson (formerly Millward) tested positive for lidocaine back in
>>2001. Note the excuse she used would never hold water under the current
>>WADA system, and she should have been banned for 2 years since this
>>happened after the creation of WADA.
>>
>>http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/aug01/aug25news.php
>>
>>Note: the article in cyclingnews is misleading in that it fails to say
>>that lidocaine was on the banned list (which it was). Instead it makes
>>a meaningless declaration that is designed to imply just the opposite is
>>true (that the substance that contaiined the lidocaine itself wasn't
>>banned - this is nothing but a play on words):
>>
>>------------
>>At the time the positive test was announced in July, Millward told
>>Cyclingnews that the substance was "a product called 'Soov' which is in
>>all A.I.S. medical kits and is not be banned under Australian
>>regulations. My main error was in not writing down that I used 'Soov' on
>>my drug test form as if I had done that then the Lidocaine in my urine
>>would have been explained, and it would not have registered as a
>>positive test."
>>------------
>>
>>FACT: Lidocaine was on the UCI and Aussie banned list in 2001.
>>
>>Had Millward used this excuse to USADA or in the Olympics she would have
>>been banned under the strict liability system. It is unclear why she
>>wasn't banned. Simply listing lidocaine on your form does not give you
>>a retoractive TUE to use it, which Millward didn't have. This was a
>>corrupt decision by the Aussie national federation to cover up a failed
>>dope test by their star rider and the facts are not in dispute.
>>
>>It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
>>test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
>>"turning over a new leaf."
>>
>>(Note: since like 2002, the UCI routinely appeals decisions like the one
>>made by the Aussie federation to acquit their riders in clear-cut failed
>>doping cases like Millward, and the CAS always argues the national
>>federations acted improperly in not finding the athlete guilty because
>>their excuse is not relevant in a strict liability system. All Millward
>>and the Aussie federation did is explain why she tested positive for a
>>banned substance! This excuse isn't even allowed under the current
>>system and it is unclear why Aussie federation was never taken to task
>>on this by the UCI.)
>>
>>I know if I were a pro rider and wanted to use lidocaine in a controlled
>>doping program, I would invent as my "drop story" that it was from an
>>innocent susbtance for mosquito bites.
>>
>>I think the women have "Die Lidocaine" painted on their frames.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Magilla
>>"Die Samsonite"
>>Self-Appointed Watchgorilla of Sport Hypocrisy
>
>
> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>
> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>
> Gonna stomp off and cry if you gotta race someone who has the waitress pour him
> another refill on the coffee cup?
>
> Ron
>
>

It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
medical experts.

Your logic is akin to saying that Floyd shouldn't be considered positive
because testosterone doesn't help a cyclist in stage races. We've
already been down this road and it's a dead end for the people asserting it.

People take all kinds of shit as masking agents and to offset other
things. Ask Jesus Manzano. Perhaps they were using lidocaine to prep
injection sites for blood transfusions with 16-gauge Leur-lock
catheters. I don't proclaim to know.

The important thing to know is it doesn't matter if the substance can be
deemed effective by someone ELSE other than the people using it and
regardless of whether the people using it have any actual scientific
basis to use it. We don't know what their reason is for thinking that
way. Perhaps they know something about lidocaine we don't.

But this analysis is moot because lidocaine was on the banned list and
Wilson tested positive for it. End of debate.

Wilson is an attorney and her logic on this point is embarrassingly
pathetic.

Thanks,

Magilla

Date: 14 Jan 2007 18:52:16
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
<MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

>RonSonic wrote:

>> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>
>> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
>> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>
>It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
>to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
>medical experts.

Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
why I used it.

WTF I'm agreeing with the gorilla? Guess so.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 15 Jan 2007 04:19:24
From: Steven Bornfeld
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
>> RonSonic wrote:
>
>>> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>>
>>> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
>>> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>> It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>> relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
>> to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
>> medical experts.
>
> Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
> that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
> why I used it.

Should we ban aspirin too?

Steve
>
>
> WTF I'm agreeing with the gorilla? Guess so.

Date: 14 Jan 2007 23:52:46
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Steven Bornfeld wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>>>
>>>> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass
>>>> got beat.
>>>> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>>>
>>> It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>>> relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned
>>> list to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board
>>> of medical experts.
>>
>>
>> Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
>> that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
>> why I used it.
>
>
> Should we ban aspirin too?
>
> Steve

Stevie Wonder,

This argument is self-serving because the banned list is what it is.
I'm not saying that everything that's on the list should be there (nor
some that should be that aren't).

All I'm saying is Millward tested positive for a substance on the list
and she walked scott-free. The rules are rules.

And now she's being sold to us by T-Mobile as the leader of this new
renaissance anti-doping movement image in cycling by the same team that
hired her!

It's a fucking mega-PR disaster waiting to happen. In fact, if cycling
were a real sport and the mainstream media found out a rider who tested
positive was heading up a team that has singled itself out as the
cleanest team in cycling with the strictest standards, it would attract
serious flak.

That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter or
a convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.

It's a fucking joke. A total PR disaster waiting to happen if it hasn't
already begun.

It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.

Millward's positive test for lidocaine in 2001 should have disqualified
her from a D.S. job on T-Mobile because the facts show she was guilty of
taking a banned substance. Her excuse was not only not compelling, but
ludicrous. It would not be accepted as a valid excuse under WADA protocol.

Stapleton is making a colossal mistake if a clean image is what he wants
to convey for his women's team.

If Millward were hired by Tinkoff that would be fine. Tinkoff isn't
selling itself to the public and the media as being Holier Than Thou in
the anti-doping standards as is T-Mobile.

So where's my fucking Pulitzer?

Thanks,

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 00:05:48
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

> already begun.
>
> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Magilla

Spotted Dick would make an excellent WADA prez. He knows both ends of the
business. What better experience to catch those who do what he did. The
opposite would be like a Catholic Priest lecturing about abstinence, or W
leading a war and sending troops into combat. What experience do they have ?

Date: 15 Jan 2007 16:10:06
From: Steven Bornfeld
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry
>>>>> ass got beat.
>>>>> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>>>>
>>>> It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>>>> relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned
>>>> list to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board
>>>> of medical experts.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
>>> that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
>>> why I used it.
>>
>>
>> Should we ban aspirin too?
>>
>> Steve
>
>
> Stevie Wonder,
>
> This argument is self-serving because the banned list is what it is. I'm
> not saying that everything that's on the list should be there (nor some
> that should be that aren't).
>
> All I'm saying is Millward tested positive for a substance on the list
> and she walked scott-free. The rules are rules.
>
> And now she's being sold to us by T-Mobile as the leader of this new
> renaissance anti-doping movement image in cycling by the same team that
> hired her!
>
> It's a fucking mega-PR disaster waiting to happen. In fact, if cycling
> were a real sport and the mainstream media found out a rider who tested
> positive was heading up a team that has singled itself out as the
> cleanest team in cycling with the strictest standards, it would attract
> serious flak.
>
> That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter or
> a convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.
>
> It's a fucking joke. A total PR disaster waiting to happen if it hasn't
> already begun.
>
> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.
>
> Millward's positive test for lidocaine in 2001 should have disqualified
> her from a D.S. job on T-Mobile because the facts show she was guilty of
> taking a banned substance. Her excuse was not only not compelling, but
> ludicrous. It would not be accepted as a valid excuse under WADA protocol.
>
> Stapleton is making a colossal mistake if a clean image is what he wants
> to convey for his women's team.
>
> If Millward were hired by Tinkoff that would be fine. Tinkoff isn't
> selling itself to the public and the media as being Holier Than Thou in
> the anti-doping standards as is T-Mobile.
>
> So where's my fucking Pulitzer?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Magilla

I don't disagree with your main point--the list is what it is. And
there is at least a basic rationale that has at least one precedent--in
horse racing. I know that you can't race a horse on butazolidine, on
the theory that a hurt horse on anti-inflammatories can injure himself
further.
I think that most people would make a distinction between lidocaine and
EPO in terms of abuse potential and intent, and a rational
decision-making process for inclusion in the banned substances list
would allow greater acceptance of the fairness of the enforcement process.

Steve

Date: 15 Jan 2007 12:27:43
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Steven Bornfeld wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>>>> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry
>>>>>> ass got beat.
>>>>>> It aint the dope, you're slow.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>>>>> relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned
>>>>> list to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board
>>>>> of medical experts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
>>>> that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
>>>> why I used it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Should we ban aspirin too?
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> Stevie Wonder,
>>
>> This argument is self-serving because the banned list is what it is.
>> I'm not saying that everything that's on the list should be there (nor
>> some that should be that aren't).
>>
>> All I'm saying is Millward tested positive for a substance on the list
>> and she walked scott-free. The rules are rules.
>>
>> And now she's being sold to us by T-Mobile as the leader of this new
>> renaissance anti-doping movement image in cycling by the same team
>> that hired her!
>>
>> It's a fucking mega-PR disaster waiting to happen. In fact, if
>> cycling were a real sport and the mainstream media found out a rider
>> who tested positive was heading up a team that has singled itself out
>> as the cleanest team in cycling with the strictest standards, it would
>> attract serious flak.
>>
>> That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter
>> or a convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.
>>
>> It's a fucking joke. A total PR disaster waiting to happen if it
>> hasn't already begun.
>>
>> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.
>>
>> Millward's positive test for lidocaine in 2001 should have
>> disqualified her from a D.S. job on T-Mobile because the facts show
>> she was guilty of taking a banned substance. Her excuse was not only
>> not compelling, but ludicrous. It would not be accepted as a valid
>> excuse under WADA protocol.
>>
>> Stapleton is making a colossal mistake if a clean image is what he
>> wants to convey for his women's team.
>>
>> If Millward were hired by Tinkoff that would be fine. Tinkoff isn't
>> selling itself to the public and the media as being Holier Than Thou
>> in the anti-doping standards as is T-Mobile.
>>
>> So where's my fucking Pulitzer?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Magilla
>
>
>
> I don't disagree with your main point--the list is what it is. And
> there is at least a basic rationale that has at least one precedent--in
> horse racing. I know that you can't race a horse on butazolidine, on
> the theory that a hurt horse on anti-inflammatories can injure himself
> further.
> I think that most people would make a distinction between lidocaine
> and EPO in terms of abuse potential and intent, and a rational
> decision-making process for inclusion in the banned substances list
> would allow greater acceptance of the fairness of the enforcement process.
>
> Steve

Under the WADA code of strict liability there is no difference between
testing positive for an anti-balding lotion, lidocaine, EPO, or
steroids. All banned substances are treated the same.

I would be against what you are talking about because every doping case
would be turned into a fucking soap opera. Also, riders would be
fabricating drop stories to set up a pretext for a WADA defense that
would dupe most arbitrators. And WADA would have no way to disprove
these stories unless you gave them subpoena/search warrant power. This
would lead to an escalation of cost and be impractical.

For example, riders would dope to the gills with cortisone and
corticosteroids, and then go out in their backyard and intentionally
sting themselves with bees and claim that they took it because they
raise honey bees (when in fact they only raise bees to cover their
doping program of cortisone).

We've already seen this abuse with 50% of the Pro Tour riders applying
for a TUE for the asthma drug albuterol. They don't have asthma. None
of them. A TUE for a pro cyclist to take a performance enahancing drug
is like a tax loophole for Bill Gates. You take what you can get under
the law.

If cycling didn't like the WADA rules, they shouldn't have joined the
WADA movement. But since they did, they have no right to complain.

Magilla

Date: 14 Jan 2007 23:57:46
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote in message
news:wG-dnQja9qUDlTbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
> And now she's being sold to us by T-Mobile as the leader of this new
> renaissance anti-doping movement image in cycling by the same team that
> hired her!
>
> It's a fucking mega-PR disaster waiting to happen. In fact, if cycling
> were a real sport and the mainstream media found out a rider who tested
> positive was heading up a team that has singled itself out as the cleanest
> team in cycling with the strictest standards, it would attract serious
> flak.
>
> That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter or a
> convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.
>
> It's a fucking joke. A total PR disaster waiting to happen if it hasn't
> already begun.
>
> It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.
>
> Millward's positive test for lidocaine in 2001 should have disqualified
> her from a D.S. job on T-Mobile because the facts show she was guilty of
> taking a banned substance. Her excuse was not only not compelling, but
> ludicrous. It would not be accepted as a valid excuse under WADA
> protocol.
>
> Stapleton is making a colossal mistake if a clean image is what he wants
> to convey for his women's team.
>

How are CSC presenting themselves?

Date: 15 Jan 2007 01:30:13
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:wG-dnQja9qUDlTbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>>And now she's being sold to us by T-Mobile as the leader of this new
>>renaissance anti-doping movement image in cycling by the same team that
>>hired her!
>>
>>It's a fucking mega-PR disaster waiting to happen. In fact, if cycling
>>were a real sport and the mainstream media found out a rider who tested
>>positive was heading up a team that has singled itself out as the cleanest
>>team in cycling with the strictest standards, it would attract serious
>>flak.
>>
>>That's like a person convicted of DWI heading up a local MADD chapter or a
>>convicted rapist being hired as the director of a women's shelter.
>>
>>It's a fucking joke. A total PR disaster waiting to happen if it hasn't
>>already begun.
>>
>>It's like Virenque being appointed as the president of WADA.
>>
>>Millward's positive test for lidocaine in 2001 should have disqualified
>>her from a D.S. job on T-Mobile because the facts show she was guilty of
>>taking a banned substance. Her excuse was not only not compelling, but
>>ludicrous. It would not be accepted as a valid excuse under WADA
>>protocol.
>>
>>Stapleton is making a colossal mistake if a clean image is what he wants
>>to convey for his women's team.
>>
>
>
>
> How are CSC presenting themselves?
>
>

See, the thing is Carl...Riis has clean hands (despite his nickname
being Mr. 60%). Riis never tested positive for anything whereas Anna
Wilson did. Riis has what's called 'plausible deniability.'

And Riis got rid of Basso, which means the guy is willing to walk the
walk. Basso was a shoe-in for a few Credit Lyonnais stuffed animals and
Riis showed him the door. So CSC is on the up-and-up.

Discovery bought a potential disaster in Basso. If Ullbitch's DNA
matches any blood from Spain, Basso's going to have to cough up his DNA.
And you know what the results are going to be....

Basso is closer to extinction than his multi-million dollar contract belies.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:55:31
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <fWednQXMoe3rgjbYUSdV9g@ptd.net >,
MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

> Basso is closer to extinction than his multi-million dollar contract belies.

Misuse of belie.

--
Michael Press

Date: 15 Jan 2007 07:43:06
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

"MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote in message
news:fWednQXMoe3rgjbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>>
>> How are CSC presenting themselves?
>
>
> See, the thing is Carl...Riis has clean hands (despite his nickname being
> Mr. 60%). Riis never tested positive for anything whereas Anna Wilson
> did. Riis has what's called 'plausible deniability.'
>
> And Riis got rid of Basso, which means the guy is willing to walk the
> walk. Basso was a shoe-in for a few Credit Lyonnais stuffed animals and
> Riis showed him the door. So CSC is on the up-and-up.
>

Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
suspension" Kim Andersen.

Riis has more guns than just Basso. Nobody's indispensible.

Date: 17 Jan 2007 12:40:54
From: Robert Chung
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:
> Riis has more guns than just Basso.

Is that acceptable?

Date: 15 Jan 2007 11:35:50
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "MagillaGorilla" <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fWednQXMoe3rgjbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
>
>>>How are CSC presenting themselves?
>>
>>
>>See, the thing is Carl...Riis has clean hands (despite his nickname being
>>Mr. 60%). Riis never tested positive for anything whereas Anna Wilson
>>did. Riis has what's called 'plausible deniability.'
>>
>>And Riis got rid of Basso, which means the guy is willing to walk the
>>walk. Basso was a shoe-in for a few Credit Lyonnais stuffed animals and
>>Riis showed him the door. So CSC is on the up-and-up.
>>
>
>
> Why did you go for the obvious answer? I was referring to "lifetime
> suspension" Kim Andersen.
>
> Riis has more guns than just Basso. Nobody's indispensible.

I was unaware of Kim Andersen's history. Now that I know it, it makes
Bjarne Riis a hypocrite and his soapbox a running joke.

But then again, I never took a guy whose nickname was Mr. 60% serious
when it came to his anti-doping stance. I just said he had plausible
deniability and his firing of Basso was a serious sacrifice as Basso
likely would have won the Tour had he competed.

But the fact that he has Mr. Lifetime Channel as his right-hand man says
something nefarious about his ethics and that of CSC's.

I mean is it really asking too much if you're going to act like this
anti-doping crusader in the sport, you might want to start by not hiring
a guy who was banned from life from the sport for doping. Is that
really asking too much? Jesus fucking Christ, you can't make this stuff up.

Even Giuliani cut his boy wonder Kerik loose when he became dirty. The
loyalty Riis extends to Andersen is not the same loyalty he extends to
riders on CSC who experience similar transgressions. Could it be that
Andersen has some dope on Riis that he is using as leverage to keep his job?

Magilla

Date: 14 Jan 2007 19:05:54
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>RonSonic wrote:
>
>
>>>Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
>>>
>>>If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
>>>It aint the dope, you're slow.
>>
>>It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
>>relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
>>to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
>>medical experts.
>
>
> Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
> that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
> why I used it.
>
>
> WTF I'm agreeing with the gorilla? Guess so.

Deep down inside, everyone likes the gorilla.

Magilla

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:52:59
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <I1CdnUMybfj_WDfYUSdV9g@ptd.net >,
MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> > <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> >>RonSonic wrote:
> >>>Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
> >>>
> >>>If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got beat.
> >>>It aint the dope, you're slow.
> >>
> >>It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
> >>relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
> >>to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
> >>medical experts.
> >
> > Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
> > that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
> > why I used it.
> >
> > WTF I'm agreeing with the gorilla? Guess so.
>
> Deep down inside, everyone likes the gorilla.

Deep down, I'm pretty superficial.
-- Ava Gardner

--
Michael Press

Date: 15 Jan 2007 19:44:46
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <rubrum-F54C09.17525815012007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:

> In article <I1CdnUMybfj_WDfYUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
> MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:35:11 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> > > <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
> > >>RonSonic wrote:
> > >>>Lidocaine? You're whining that someone using lidocaine is a cheat!?!
> > >>>
> > >>>If someone using lidocaine beats your sorry ass, then your sorry ass got
> > >>>beat.
> > >>>It aint the dope, you're slow.
> > >>
> > >>It was on the banned list for a reason. Your assumptions are not
> > >>relevant to the fact that lidocaine, in order to get on the banned list
> > >>to begin with, was considered performance enhancing by a board of
> > >>medical experts.
> > >
> > > Lidocaine doesn't directly enhance performance, but its a pain killer
> > > that lets you ride when you otherwise couldn't ride. At least that's
> > > why I used it.
> > >
> > > WTF I'm agreeing with the gorilla? Guess so.
> >
> > Deep down inside, everyone likes the gorilla.
>
> Deep down, I'm pretty superficial.
> -- Ava Gardner

People say I'm apathetic but I don't care.
-- The Lunachicks

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 14 Jan 2007 14:05:56
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

>
> It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
> test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
> "turning over a new leaf."

dumbass,

lidocaine in the women's peloton ? that's nut mold.

some of the big names from T-mo are gone but it's far from a "new
leaf".

gonchar got popped with a high hct a few years back and that got his
team booted from the tour wildcard.

the shit is hard to google because no one knows how his name is
spelled, but it mght have even happened more than once.

Date: 16 Jan 2007 00:57:39
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article
<1168812356.613332.293740@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com >,
"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote:

> >
> > It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
> > test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
> > "turning over a new leaf."
>
> dumbass,
>
> lidocaine in the women's peloton ? that's nut mold.
>
> some of the big names from T-mo are gone but it's far from a "new
> leaf".
>
> gonchar got popped with a high hct a few years back and that got his
> team booted from the tour wildcard.
>
> the shit is hard to google because no one knows how his name is
> spelled, but it mght have even happened more than once.

Here are some capital letters to tide you over until
you get to the store.

AMTHATIAMTIIAMAGMTIGGAGIGJGITGGAIJIEAIIECHAPHJAIETGHGAIE
AIEIAIEBEAMBTAWAAACAMAMPATGGAGIGJATAJIAJLIAJTAJBWBIDIAJS
IISAAATAHPAZAJEPPEIAJEAAJAEJAJAJAJLBBTIIGAJAJALATSHIAIAA
THAIAAAJBJAJTAEEAPAJAJAEAJAPWAWAJDGIAJIAAPIPIPAJTTYPPBIP
FIHIWJIIAPAJTTYPAPAPBJYJAPAAASPAAAAPAEPPTPIPAIAHATPJPAPJ
IIAJPIGPAPJIIAAIEAASIAIAAIAJPTPGPTATIPWGPBEAEAAPGGNPELPE
APAEAPAPCSGAPJFGTIAPJSIEAPJABEAPJIPEAPJZAPOAJEAJPEAJPEAA
EAJAJAPOAJMFGAEFGAEAJEAEPPEGJAJEEAEJNJEJWABIEAJEBBJJLAIC
AJJAJWAFCAJAJYANWANATCAJTIYHBPSPAAJTIGIBAAWARSIDAJASTJAA
AMWGAJCTAWWCAHIAIIAAJMJSBARSIIAMAAEGAJTYIBYAIWATIBAJISII
FAIIATAGABIIIABEJAJBBAJJAJBAJAOAAAPGGIASAJAJAJAIIATAABIA
GAJASAEEHEAABAAFAAJAAJUWIAAWGBCWANTABTAJJAJWIAJWGAGITJOI
PMHAWABIATAEAAGAWAYAISIANIIFIIINIFIITJCAJAEPAJIJAAJCIAAI
JENGFAGSGPEHTJGEAGAIABAEABBMAPJPAPJSTCAIENEAEAIJPTBAESSA
ECJAJEAJAJJJAIIJIIAIBGIAGIJJAHIAIGGEIIEIJAJBIJPACEJHEAIE
JRJARHPHCASJJOJZSCALGKMAJEOSPZEOCAPHHAITPJSAZSEJTLJPDAGZ
HSEEAAAAJIIBSBHMTZLLJTRJJBAJEMEAPOABBBAGNERMHATRJADHANJG
JSTBLRJAJEJAJEJEAJJGGAJIGAIJNIAJIPMCAAPWTTGETJPMCGAPAPWA
PTTPFCGAPJTTEGAJJPJPAPJHAJPTAJPPAJERPAJAECAJECJPAEC

--
Michael Press

Date: 14 Jan 2007 18:25:05
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:

>
>>It's nice to see T-Mobile and Stapleton hiring a rider who failed a dope
>>test for a banned substance as their manager under the pretext of
>>"turning over a new leaf."
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> lidocaine in the women's peloton ? that's nut mold.
>

Nobody's saying that the women are supervising their own doping
programs. What I am saying is national federatons (see Strock and
Kaiter v. USAC, also Eddie B. 1984 Olympics) have a history of
administering rider doping programs, oftentimes without the riders'
knowledge let alone consent. In fact, it's custoy that team
physicians in Europe and elsewhere administrate the doping programs of
athletes. Athletes have no fucking idea what's going on, as evidenced
by Millward's lame excuse. Athletes consult with people like Fuentes et
al. The national federations are the poor man's Fuentes (or in the case
of Wilson, poor woman).

Who knows what the Aussie fed was up to. Their track squad has a deep
history of doping (not to mention aggravated assault). The leaf doesn't
fall far from the tree.

I'm not saying the Aussie national team was dirty, but then again I'm
also not vouching for their cleanliness either. What I do know is
Millward's excuse would not fly under the WADA strict liability code and
it shouldn't have worked for her since lidocaine was on the banned list
in 2001 and she tested positive for it. It really doesn't get any
simpler than that (nor more corrupt).

And for a team like T-Mobile to hire someone like Wilson who tested
positive for a banned substance under the keting banner of "turning
over a new leaf" as a dope-free team is, at least at the PR level,
seriously fucking bizarre if not indicative of latter stage dementia.
Couldn't they find a D.S. who didn't test positive for a banned
substance? I mean Jesus fucking Christ Almighty that is a major PR
blunder at the least, and something more sinister at worst.

Perhaps Wilson is qualified to run the women's program at Tinkoff, but
not at T-Mobile.

If the cycling press had any cojones they would resurrect the Millward
doping case from 2001 since T-Mobile is getting all righteous in the
press about this "Die Mannscahft" clean team nonsense. But since they
are in bed with the teams nothing will happen and the best investigative
reporting is once again done by an 800-pound gorilla named....

Magilla van Halen

Date: 16 Jan 2007 01:45:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

In article <U1qdnXIsquJMJjfYUSdV9g@ptd.net >,
MagillaGorilla <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com > wrote:

> If the cycling press had any cojones they would resurrect the Millward
> doping case from 2001 since T-Mobile is getting all righteous in the
> press about this "Die Mannscahft" clean team nonsense. But since they
> are in bed with the teams nothing will happen and the best investigative
> reporting is once again done by an 800-pound gorilla named....

Oh, ho. Now I get your drift. But, sadly, the premise
is empty. As for gutless sports media, you should have
been watching the San Francisco newspapers and radio
stations eagerly swallowing every last pellet Barry
Bonds emitted these last dozen years.

--
Michael Press

Date: 14 Jan 2007 17:57:12
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On 14 Jan 2007 14:05:56 -0800, "amit.ghosh@gmail.com"
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote:

[gonchar]
>the shit is hard to google because no one knows how his name is
>spelled, but it mght have even happened more than once.

Funny.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 14 Jan 2007 16:54:13
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

Date: 15 Jan 2007 10:13:44
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> racing.

Dumbass,
You don't crash enough to be a hardcore badass.

Date: 15 Jan 2007 08:46:13
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:13:44 +0200, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
>> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
>> racing.
>
>Dumbass,
>You don't crash enough to be a hardcore badass.

LOL.

Yeah. But the last serious crash I had was sort of funny. There's a
really accomplished but increasingly sketchy rider in a lot of races I
do. And at least a couple times a season he slams me really bad and I
scream at him how dangerous he is. Though he's never caused me to
crash -- just very close.

Then, the one time I lay it down in a crit I took him with me.
Totally my fault too.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 14 Jan 2007 17:17:01
From: MagillaGorilla
Subject: Re: Die Lidocaine: T-Mobile Women's Team

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:43:25 -0500, MagillaGorilla
> <MagillaGorilla@zoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/11453.0.html
>>
>>Taking over the reigns as team manager will be Kristy Scrymgeour with
>>Anna Wilson as sport director and Petra Rossner acting as coach.
>>
>>-------------
>
> I raced while using topical lidocaine a number of years ago. Was it
> banned under USCF rules if used topically?
>
> If so, that makes me sorta feel like a badass. I'm hardcore. You do
> what you've got to do in the brutal world of East Coast masters
> racing.

The test doesn't distinguish betwen topical application and injectable.
Lidocaine is lidocaine. However, lidocaine was taken off the banned
list in 2004 (but was still on the list when Wilson tested positive).

Millward failed the lidocaine test and then her federation just covered
up for her with an excuse that isn't even allowed to be used under the
strict liability system.

This lidocaine incident is one of the most corrupt decisions ever in the
hisotry of cycling as Millward testd positive while ranked #1 and then
simply got her "mates" in the Ausssie federation to whitewash it.

Such an excuse would never fly before USADA. Ask Amber Neben or Scott
Moninger. In fact, Moninger and Neben tested positive over inadvertant
use, while Millward took the lidocaine intentionally (it was clearly
listed on the substance in question).

All the Aussie federation did was say, "Yeah, but it was an accident."
As if they really knew whether or not Wilson was on an organized
lidocaine doping program.

You are now qualified to manage a pro team, JT. Congratulations!

Magilla