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Main
Date: 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue
I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
climb as well especially on steep inclines.
My only possible explanation is that since all the TT bikes use the
same size wheels that this has dramatically increased how they climb.
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 11:45:56
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On Feb 20, 8:29 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
>
> news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>
> > At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour
>
> How accurate is this?
Suppose a 70 kg rider putting out 5.5 w/kg = 385 watts.
10 kg of bike+kit and 35 watts lost to rolling resistance
and drag on the climb. Then the ascent rate is
350 w / 80kg / 9.8m/s^2 = 0.446 m/s, or 1600 meters/hour.
So it's in the ballpark; my guess is that the strong riders
do well above 400w on a short power climb.
Ben
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 19:32:22
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1172087156.070654.98850@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 20, 8:29 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
>>
>> news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> > At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour
>>
>> How accurate is this?
>
> Suppose a 70 kg rider putting out 5.5 w/kg = 385 watts.
> 10 kg of bike+kit and 35 watts lost to rolling resistance
> and drag on the climb. Then the ascent rate is
> 350 w / 80kg / 9.8m/s^2 = 0.446 m/s, or 1600 meters/hour.
> So it's in the ballpark;
That's potentially about the same accuracy as false positives, right? ;-)
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Date: 22 Feb 2007 15:37:30
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote in message
news:Lo6Dh.164553$IL1.109933@newsfe13.lga...
>
> <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
> news:1172087156.070654.98850@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 20, 8:29 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>>
>>> > At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour
>>>
>>> How accurate is this?
>>
>> Suppose a 70 kg rider putting out 5.5 w/kg = 385 watts.
>> 10 kg of bike+kit and 35 watts lost to rolling resistance
>> and drag on the climb. Then the ascent rate is
>> 350 w / 80kg / 9.8m/s^2 = 0.446 m/s, or 1600 meters/hour.
>> So it's in the ballpark;
>
> That's potentially about the same accuracy as false positives, right?
> ;-)
To guys like him there are no false positives - only false negatives.
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 10:04:46
From:
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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it's a BIG KETING OPPORTUNITY for Trek.
TT bikes are visually interesting and give the tv commentators stuff
to talk about and say "trek" alot more and point their cameras at the
"trek" logos.
On Feb 19, 10:15 pm, "hizar...@yahoo.com" <hizar...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue
>
> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
>
> My only possible explanation is that since all the TT bikes use the
> same size wheels that this has dramatically increased how they climb.
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 14:46:45
From: Charles Beristain
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue
>
>I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
>why..??
this article has some good techie info about use of TT bikes on hills.
http://www.biketechreview.com/archive/equip_significant.htm
charlieb in ct.
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 06:05:56
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On Feb 20, 7:29 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
>
> news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>
> > At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour
>
> How accurate is this?
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 06:19:54
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue
>
>I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
>why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
>climb as well especially on steep inclines.
What steep incline?
>My only possible explanation is that since all the TT bikes use the
>same size wheels that this has dramatically increased how they climb.
My online possible explanation is that TT bikes are more aero and put
the rider in a good aero position.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 14:25:57
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
>> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
>> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
>
The climb was approximately 75 meters. At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour, this yields approx 140 seconds of climbing. If the rider
with 0.5 kg of additional mass out of a system weight of 75 kg, this corresponds to 0.9 seconds saved.
OTOH, there were on order 3 km of flat riding. At 60 kph, this takes 180 seconds. If a rider can save 2% of aerodynamic power, this saves
pproximately 1.2 seconds. The bike is worth approx 30% of aero drag, the body 70%. So this corresponds to a bike approximately 7% more aero.
So even with a climb of this nature, a relatively small aerodynamic benefit can be beneficial, even with a significant weight penalty.
Dan
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 21:29:20
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> At a vertical rate of climbing of 2000 meters/hour
How accurate is this?
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 21:11:47
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>
>>> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
>>> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
>>> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
>>
>
> The climb was approximately 75 meters. At a vertical rate of climbing of
> 2000 meters/hour, this yields approx 140 seconds of climbing. If the
> rider with 0.5 kg of additional mass out of a system weight of 75 kg, this
> corresponds to 0.9 seconds saved.
>
> OTOH, there were on order 3 km of flat riding. At 60 kph, this takes 180
> seconds. If a rider can save 2% of aerodynamic power, this saves
> pproximately 1.2 seconds. The bike is worth approx 30% of aero drag, the
> body 70%. So this corresponds to a bike approximately 7% more aero.
>
> So even with a climb of this nature, a relatively small aerodynamic
> benefit can be beneficial, even with a significant weight penalty.
>
> Dan
The key here is how much time of the prologue was on the hill (plus it was
at the end when riders had already accumulated lactate)? The slower the
average speed on the hill section, the greater advantage for going faster on
the hill.
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 15:12:39
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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In article <VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net >,
Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>
> >> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
> >> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
> >> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
> >
>
> The climb was approximately 75 meters. At a vertical rate of climbing of
> 2000 meters/hour, this yields approx 140 seconds of climbing. If the rider
> with 0.5 kg of additional mass out of a system weight of 75 kg, this
> corresponds to 0.9 seconds saved.
>
> OTOH, there were on order 3 km of flat riding. At 60 kph, this takes 180
> seconds. If a rider can save 2% of aerodynamic power, this saves
> pproximately 1.2 seconds. The bike is worth approx 30% of aero drag, the
> body 70%. So this corresponds to a bike approximately 7% more aero.
>
> So even with a climb of this nature, a relatively small aerodynamic benefit
> can be beneficial, even with a significant weight penalty.
You can always count on Dan to come through with a thorough analysis on something
like this. Thanks.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 20 Feb 2007 18:31:44
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:39 -0800, Howard Kveck
<YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
>In article <VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>,
> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> > On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>>
>> >> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
>> >> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
>> >> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
>> >
>>
>> The climb was approximately 75 meters. At a vertical rate of climbing of
>> 2000 meters/hour, this yields approx 140 seconds of climbing. If the rider
>> with 0.5 kg of additional mass out of a system weight of 75 kg, this
>> corresponds to 0.9 seconds saved.
>>
>> OTOH, there were on order 3 km of flat riding. At 60 kph, this takes 180
>> seconds. If a rider can save 2% of aerodynamic power, this saves
>> pproximately 1.2 seconds. The bike is worth approx 30% of aero drag, the
>> body 70%. So this corresponds to a bike approximately 7% more aero.
>>
>> So even with a climb of this nature, a relatively small aerodynamic benefit
>> can be beneficial, even with a significant weight penalty.
>
> You can always count on Dan to come through with a thorough analysis on something
>like this. Thanks.
Ditto that.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 07:51:20
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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In article <q61nt25hm1hlrjol3hgnucri69jrudnl16@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:39 -0800, Howard Kveck
> <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <VxDCh.26020$zH1.17918@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>,
> > Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
> >
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> > On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
> >>
> >> >> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
> >> >> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes don't
> >> >> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The climb was approximately 75 meters. At a vertical rate of climbing of
> >> 2000 meters/hour, this yields approx 140 seconds of climbing. If the
> >> rider
> >> with 0.5 kg of additional mass out of a system weight of 75 kg, this
> >> corresponds to 0.9 seconds saved.
> >>
> >> OTOH, there were on order 3 km of flat riding. At 60 kph, this takes 180
> >> seconds. If a rider can save 2% of aerodynamic power, this saves
> >> pproximately 1.2 seconds. The bike is worth approx 30% of aero drag, the
> >> body 70%. So this corresponds to a bike approximately 7% more aero.
> >>
> >> So even with a climb of this nature, a relatively small aerodynamic
> >> benefit
> >> can be beneficial, even with a significant weight penalty.
> >
> > You can always count on Dan to come through with a thorough analysis on
> > something
> >like this. Thanks.
>
> Ditto that.
Also, I wouldn't be shocked to hear that the TT bikes were running
closer to the weight limits than you might assume.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 21 Feb 2007 14:03:54
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote in message
news:rcousine-6FAA96.23511920022007@news.telus.net...
> In article <q61nt25hm1hlrjol3hgnucri69jrudnl16@4ax.com>,
>> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >> > On 19 Feb 2007 19:15:13 -0800, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>> >>
>> >> >> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> why..?? Now Levi won, but what is the advantage since TT bikes
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> climb as well especially on steep inclines.
>
> Also, I wouldn't be shocked to hear that the TT bikes were running
> closer to the weight limits than you might assume.
I was at the top of the climbs just at the turn to go around the short climb
to Coit Tower and the TT bikes were coming by as fast or faster than the
standard bikes with climbing wheels.
Piece of information - Coit was a rich guy who liked to watch fires and
firemen work. He donated a lot of money to the fire department when he was
alive. After he died his wife had Coit Tower built in his memory. It is
shaped to look like a fire nozzle of the time.
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Date: 19 Feb 2007 19:27:30
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue..??
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On Feb 19, 10:15 pm, "hizar...@yahoo.com" <hizar...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Discovery using TT bikes in tour of CA prologue
>
> I did not see yesterdays TT, but does anyone have any thoughts as to
> why..??
dumbass,
yes.
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