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Main
Date: 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17
From: Keith
Subject: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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...for Danilo Di Luca, Eddy Mazzoleni, Gilberto Simoni and Riccardo
Riccò...not enough testosterone apparently, looks like they learnt the
Landis lesson well, or maybe too well...my guess is that the carbon
isotope is coming their way ! They should really do it systematically,
that would make the use of masking agents useless, a waste of time for
all involved !
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from=rss
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 00:53:03
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Jun 26, 5:27 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
> >mean it in your case),
>
> >So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
> >original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
> >in question is testosterone?
>
> Forget dumbass.
>
> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
>
> Here is a quote from the article:
>
> "The low hormone values are said to be rare as a natural occurrence -
> levels expected in prepubescent males and not those of fully mature
> adults - and a red flag to the possible use of masking agents designed
> to thwart anti-doping controls. However, decreased levels of
> testosterone have been demonstrated during a study of riders in the
> 1999 Vuelta a Espa=F1a published in the British Journal of Sports
> Medicine"
>
> What hormone is implied? Let me think. Let me use my own (male) body
> as a model: what would that hormone be, the level of which is
> expected in prepubescent males but not in fully mature adults? Hmmm...
>
> You may be a pro cyclist, and you may be a prepubescent male, and you
> may be a woman, but if you are none of the above and your level of
> this hormone we are talking about is low, better go see your doctor.
> Or your butt boy.
>
> So why don't you dope apologists stop dumping on people who can
> actually see reality, and have the balls (which implies a modicum of a
> certain hormone) to express it, and just STFU?
>
> You embarrass yourselves.
Lausanne, CH (AP) - WADA scientist Doug Taylor today
gave international anti-doping efforts more ammunition
as he demonstrated the results of scientific experiments
showing that abuse of and elevated levels of testosterone
dramatically reduce reading comprehension. In order to
carry out the experiments ethically, Taylor bravely performed
them on himself. "With these experiments, Doug Taylor
follows in the footsteps of medical heroes such as Walter
Reed and Jesse Lazear, the conquerors of yellow fever,"
said Dick Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency.
Pound then fired Taylor and docked him a year's pay
for violations of the WADA Code.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 08:57:14
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:53:03 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>
>> You embarrass yourselves.
>
>Lausanne, CH (AP) - WADA scientist Doug Taylor today
>gave international anti-doping efforts more ammunition
>as he demonstrated the results of scientific experiments
>showing that abuse of and elevated levels of testosterone
>dramatically reduce reading comprehension. In order to
>carry out the experiments ethically, Taylor bravely performed
>them on himself. "With these experiments, Doug Taylor
>follows in the footsteps of medical heroes such as Walter
>Reed and Jesse Lazear, the conquerors of yellow fever,"
>said Dick Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency.
>Pound then fired Taylor and docked him a year's pay
>for violations of the WADA Code.
Yuck yuck.
The undeniable FACT, manifestly self-evident, is that the pro peloton
is a "culture of doping." The sponsors want exposure and press; the
teams pay for performance to attract the sponsors. The athletes are
between a rock and a hard place. If they don't dope, they can't be
competitive; if they aren't competitive, they don't get contracts,
salaries or endorsements; if they do dope, they risk getting caught
and suspended; if they admit it, they get no sympathy; AND, if they
breach Omerta, they're ostracized by their peers. Finally, if a team
and/or its athletes get bad press from busts or innuendo, the sponsors
- who started the ball rolling in the first place - pull the plug for
fear of negative exposure and bad press. A self perpetuating mess at
best.
The following quote from last summer was and still is the best
assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
the objective facts, AND based upon first hand knowledge:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul07news3
[quote] German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg
Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he
believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high
level cycling
In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of
modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last
year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can
do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are
exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to
three days in order to regenerate."
To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used.
"Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he
said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."
Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard
testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy
on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose
is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping
test, but the body actually recovers faster."
Dr Moosburger went onto explain that, "The supply of oxygen to the
blood decides what the body is capable of in terms of fat- and
carbohydrate metabolism. This capacity is mostly genetically
determined.The muscles of athletes who are able to reach the top level
of sport can carry about 60 millilitres per kilo per minute in an
untrained condition. That of an average person is only about 40
millilitres per kilo. In order to be able to keep up with the world's
best, it must be 85 to 90 millilitres.
EPO helps oxygen carrying capacity, and has long been the performance
enhancing drug of choice in endurance sports. "It enables you to hold
the haematocrit of the blood in the upper level of what's allowed for
the whole season. Before the EPO test, for example, athletes injected
4000 units three times per week. Now they inject a small dose almost
daily."
Finally, in the opinion of Dr Moosburger, blood doping via transfusion
would give an athlete a five percent boost for two to three weeks.
"And therefore can last for a grand tour." [/quote]
Accordingly, it would seem pretty friggin clear that ANY abnormalities
discovered in the blood of a bike racer after a race - high
testosterone, low testosterone, high haematocrit, etc. etc. etc. - is
confirmation of the presumed fact evident from the superhuman
performance. We'll let the system in place decide whether tests are
positive and sanctions will follow.
Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a shit.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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Doug Taylor wrote:
> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
> complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
Laff has public sex with his strawman fairly regularly. He's
not a positive role model in that respect.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 10:23:15
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
<bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net > wrote:
>Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>> complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>
>Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
results, buy into such idiocy and bullshit as Floyd Landis' "defense",
and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
It's nutty.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 12:12:07
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:23:15 -0400, Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
><bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Doug Taylor wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>>> complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
>>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>>
>>Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>>regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>>the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
>OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
>So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
>complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
>results, buy into such idiocy and bullshit as Floyd Landis' "defense",
>and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
You're swinging wildly between specifics and very broad generalities.
The landis case has been an ongoing disaster of procedural, ethical and
administrative errors. Absolutely nothing was handled correctly since the
preemptive leak of adverse results by the UCI. Which simultaineously violated
the rider's rights and undermined confidence in the lab. That was in the first
minute of the "scandal." It got worse after that.
>It's nutty.
The cops gotta do their jobs and they have to do it in some way that is
credible.
The problems of chemistry in the Landis case are not nitpicking. Look at the
results obtained from repeated testings. If we charted that on a target I don't
think you could call it a group.
Ron
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:56:45
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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Doug Taylor wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
> <bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>>> complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
>>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>> Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>> regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>> the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
> OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
> complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
> results, buy into such idiocy and bullshit as Floyd Landis' "defense",
> and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
>
> It's nutty.
It's what happens when people get emotional over stuff that really isn't
that important. Once you are invested in your favorite athlete beyond
entertainment then an attack on their performance becomes more personal
than it ought to be. And defense mechanisms kick in.
Speaking for myself, my problem with the Pounder and WADA is they don't
respect the integrity of the process. That is what provides openings for
some of the behavior you mention. If they were US cops they'd get ground
up like hamburger by the court system, regardless of the guilt or
innocence of the accused.
If bike racing were important it might bother me more. But really, if
Barry Bonds is juiced or Joe College Football Lineman is juiced or
Marion Jones is juiced or Floyd is juiced or Lindsey Lohan is juiced
it matters little to me. On the list of things to be outraged about in
our society, doping among entertainers is pretty far down the list.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 16:34:02
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist?
I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE DOPE! Enough already. If everyone would
just shut daryap, we could enjoy the show again.
Bring back Hein.
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:01:24
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Ewoud Dronkert" <firstname@lastname.net.invalid > wrote in message
news:q6t483pen7idd5b5t7g7hgu56bvg8amd2u@4ax.com...
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist?
>
> I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE DOPE! Enough already. If everyone would
> just shut daryap, we could enjoy the show again.
>
> Bring back Hein.
>
Would it make you as happy as this guy?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2001/sep01/trackworlds/MGlance1.shtml
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 23:33:59
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 2:27 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
> >mean it in your case),
>
> >So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
> >original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
> >in question is testosterone?
>
> Forget dumbass.
>
> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
>
> Here is a quote from the article:
>
> "The low hormone values are said to be rare as a natural occurrence -
> levels expected in prepubescent males and not those of fully mature
> adults - and a red flag to the possible use of masking agents designed
> to thwart anti-doping controls. However, decreased levels of
> testosterone have been demonstrated during a study of riders in the
> 1999 Vuelta a Espa=F1a published in the British Journal of Sports
> Medicine"
>
> What hormone is implied? Let me think. Let me use my own (male) body
> as a model: what would that hormone be, the level of which is
> expected in prepubescent males but not in fully mature adults? Hmmm...
>
> You may be a pro cyclist, and you may be a prepubescent male, and you
> may be a woman, but if you are none of the above and your level of
> this hormone we are talking about is low, better go see your doctor.
> Or your butt boy.
>
> So why don't you dope apologists stop dumping on people who can
> actually see reality, and have the balls (which implies a modicum of a
> certain hormone) to express it, and just STFU?
>
> You embarrass yourselves.
Dumbass,
I usually cut down on the quoted pieces but in your case the Dunning-
Kruger effect is so complete that it deserved to be preserved in its
entirety.
Here's the thing: I pointed at a case where it was claimed that low
levels of epitestosterone were a result of doping with synthetic
testosterone. Meanwhile, the original story in Corriere dello Sport
didn't mention testosterone--CN brought it up, and then pointed at a
study that suggests that low testosterone can result in the *absence*
of doping behavior.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 19:39:42
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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In article <1182926039.660776.45460@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> the Dunning-Kruger effect
There must be a Kunichian portion of this, perhaps worthy of its own title.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 15:31:38
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 26, 7:51 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> You're an idiot and have wasted enough of my time, get lost.
Hmmm. I'll take that as an admission that you recognize the error in
your claim. Not a particularly gracious admission but an admission
nonetheless and, under the circumstances, it's completely
understandable that grace could be hard to show after having been so
thoroughly pwned.
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 06:34:15
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 26, 6:08 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 26, 11:54 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > >> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
> > >> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
> > >> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
> > >> the dope yourself.
>
> > >Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
> > >case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
> > >stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
>
> > No, what triggered the B test, was the abnormal ratio >4 of
> > testo/epitesto
>
> Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
> mean it in your case),
>
> So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
> original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
> in question is testosterone?
It's implied. Implied hormone leading to implied doping leading to
implied sanctions leading to implied clean riders leading to implied
increased sponsorship leading to implied Dick Pound worldwide rule (if
Cheney doesn't get there first with the implied terror/secrecy route).
I hope you understand the implications.
R
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 26, 11:54 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
> >> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
> >> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
> >> the dope yourself.
>
> >Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
> >case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
> >stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
>
> No, what triggered the B test, was the abnormal ratio >4 of
> testo/epitesto
Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
mean it in your case),
So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
in question is testosterone?
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 20:27:59
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
>mean it in your case),
>
>So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
>original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
>in question is testosterone?
Forget dumbass.
Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
Here is a quote from the article:
"The low hormone values are said to be rare as a natural occurrence -
levels expected in prepubescent males and not those of fully mature
adults - and a red flag to the possible use of masking agents designed
to thwart anti-doping controls. However, decreased levels of
testosterone have been demonstrated during a study of riders in the
1999 Vuelta a España published in the British Journal of Sports
Medicine"
What hormone is implied? Let me think. Let me use my own (male) body
as a model: what would that hormone be, the level of which is
expected in prepubescent males but not in fully mature adults? Hmmm...
You may be a pro cyclist, and you may be a prepubescent male, and you
may be a woman, but if you are none of the above and your level of
this hormone we are talking about is low, better go see your doctor.
Or your butt boy.
So why don't you dope apologists stop dumping on people who can
actually see reality, and have the balls (which implies a modicum of a
certain hormone) to express it, and just STFU?
You embarrass yourselves.
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Date: 30 Jun 2007 04:14:13
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 11:07 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> I mean, DUH. And, we certainly will see soon whether there was
> anything to this test, or not.
>
> As far as objective facts, fuckwit, I'll reiterate the point one last
> time: According to the quoted Dr. Moosburger, no normal human body
> can perform at the levels seen in recent grand tours without a little
> help from testosterone, HGH, EPO,etc.. E.g.: Floyd Landis, Ivan
> Basso, Roberto Heras, Jan Ulrich, Tyler Hamilton, etc., etc., etc.
>
> And according to Brian Lafferty: LANCE.
How are these "objective facts"? They aren't objective,
or facts. They are Dr. Moosburger's opinion. And Lafferty
is hardly neutral on the subject of LANCE. I haven't
seen any way of proving that a person cannot ride at
X watts for Y hours Z days in a row without doping.
I might think it's unlikely, but most of the arguments
that claim to prove it have been like Antoine Vayer's:
full of more holes than a worn out pair of Nashbar shorts.
I think all the guys you named have used something
or another, but I don't think anyone's proven it, and
in fact I don't think our understanding of exercise
physiology goes far enough to prove it. If you could
put powermeters on all TdF riders' bikes, do efficiency
tests at the depart, and monitor their hematocrit and
hormone levels throughout the three weeks, you
might gain some idea of what is or is not possible
without chemical assistance, but you'd probably
still not be able to deduce that X watts at Y lactate
level is proof of doping.
> I'm waiting for your better explanation, but I'm not holding my
> breath.
I don't have a better explanation. I just think that
calling suspicions objective facts isn't actually an
explanation at all.
Ben
British Intelligence has learned that Floyd Landis
sought testosterone from Niger.
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Date: 01 Jul 2007 09:37:36
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:14:13 -0000, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>On Jun 29, 11:07 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I mean, DUH. And, we certainly will see soon whether there was
>> anything to this test, or not.
>>
>> As far as objective facts, fuckwit, I'll reiterate the point one last
>> time: According to the quoted Dr. Moosburger, no normal human body
>> can perform at the levels seen in recent grand tours without a little
>> help from testosterone, HGH, EPO,etc.. E.g.: Floyd Landis, Ivan
>> Basso, Roberto Heras, Jan Ulrich, Tyler Hamilton, etc., etc., etc.
>>
>> And according to Brian Lafferty: LANCE.
>
>How are these "objective facts"? They aren't objective,
>or facts. They are Dr. Moosburger's opinion. And Lafferty
>is hardly neutral on the subject of LANCE. I haven't
>seen any way of proving that a person cannot ride at
>X watts for Y hours Z days in a row without doping.
>I might think it's unlikely, but most of the arguments
>that claim to prove it have been like Antoine Vayer's:
>full of more holes than a worn out pair of Nashbar shorts.
>
>I think all the guys you named have used something
>or another, but I don't think anyone's proven it, and
>in fact I don't think our understanding of exercise
>physiology goes far enough to prove it. If you could
>put powermeters on all TdF riders' bikes, do efficiency
>tests at the depart, and monitor their hematocrit and
>hormone levels throughout the three weeks, you
>might gain some idea of what is or is not possible
>without chemical assistance, but you'd probably
>still not be able to deduce that X watts at Y lactate
>level is proof of doping.
>
>> I'm waiting for your better explanation, but I'm not holding my
>> breath.
>
>I don't have a better explanation. I just think that
>calling suspicions objective facts isn't actually an
>explanation at all.
Here's an other "opinion" for you, from Moosburger's patient:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul01news
[quote] Commenting on the pervasiveness of doping in cycling, he
added, "It's perverse, but the doping system is just, because everyone
dopes. Cycling without doping is only just when really no one is
doping any longer." Jaksche revealed doping was often coordinated by
team management or at the very least, permitted. "The logic is you
adjust your performance level to the rest, because everyone is doing
it. In cycling, you live in a parallel world.
"Cycling per se is not fun. It always hurts. The sport is a lot about
pain, physical pain. Workouts are the attempt to increase your
performance so you won't get dropped. And so it won't hurt so much
first there was cortisone, then EPO and today it is fresh blood.
Cycling is a difficult sport. A soccer player can run 90 minutes like
a fool over the field, but if he scores the decisive goal in overtime
he's the hero. In cycling, you get dropped in 99 out of 100 races,
even when you give it everything. It hurts, all the time; but you
still are successful only a few times."[/quote]
The facts are that an undoped human body can't compete with a doped
human body; that if one gifted cyclist dopes, then the rest must in
order to be competitive; that the levels of performance currently
observed in bicycle racing prove doping because they are not
achievable with an unpdoped body; and that the system is self
perpetuating.
Disagree, flame away, if you must, but this deduction is fairly
obvious and the smoke is clearing on the "facts" as more and more
cyclists get busted and/or confess.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 02:50:47
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<vnaf83l6so4smoq9jk5hmp5v0vh7oula8k@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
What is your point?
--
Michael Press
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 08:46:00
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:50:47 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>In article
><vnaf83l6so4smoq9jk5hmp5v0vh7oula8k@4ax.com>,
> Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>What is your point?
Hey, Mike, if I'm Robert's trained monkey, how does it feel to be his
bitch?
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 18:12:37
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<45hk83t6q6464l7fnrumc8650s0tsah9n2@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:50:47 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><vnaf83l6so4smoq9jk5hmp5v0vh7oula8k@4ax.com>,
> > Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> >
> >What is your point?
>
> Hey, Mike, if I'm Robert's trained monkey, how does it feel to be his
> bitch?
As I was saying, you do not understand what you read,
and when you inevitably run out of rational argument,
you throw feces.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 21:45:39
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article <1183176853.648403.220050@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 11:07 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I mean, DUH. And, we certainly will see soon whether there was
> > anything to this test, or not.
> >
> > As far as objective facts, fuckwit, I'll reiterate the point one last
> > time: According to the quoted Dr. Moosburger, no normal human body
> > can perform at the levels seen in recent grand tours without a little
> > help from testosterone, HGH, EPO,etc.. E.g.: Floyd Landis, Ivan
> > Basso, Roberto Heras, Jan Ulrich, Tyler Hamilton, etc., etc., etc.
> >
> > And according to Brian Lafferty: LANCE.
>
> How are these "objective facts"? They aren't objective,
> or facts. They are Dr. Moosburger's opinion. And Lafferty
> is hardly neutral on the subject of LANCE. I haven't
> seen any way of proving that a person cannot ride at
> X watts for Y hours Z days in a row without doping.
> I might think it's unlikely, but most of the arguments
> that claim to prove it have been like Antoine Vayer's:
> full of more holes than a worn out pair of Nashbar shorts.
Ha, as an analogy, those shorts don't even have to have actual holes to accurately
describe Vayer's arguments: they're extremely thin in critical areas.
> Ben
> British Intelligence has learned that Floyd Landis
> sought testosterone from Niger.
The eleven words that shouldn't have made it into the State of the Tour Address...
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 30 Jun 2007 14:34:53
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> British Intelligence has learned that Floyd Landis
>> sought testosterone from Niger.
Howard Kveck wrote:
> The eleven words that shouldn't have made it into the State of the Tour Address...
Has Pound made an axis of evil speech then.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 11:50:56
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 8:07 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:57:00 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Jun 29, 5:58 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
> >> >think that means what he thinks it means.
>
> >> You don't?
>
> >> Let's go back to the cyclingnews article:
>
> >[snip]
>
> >> Hence testosterone, HGH, and EPO.
>
> >> The guy's a doctor who has advised and treated prof. bike racers.
> >> Makes a shitload of sense to me, but I'm just the latest rbr nutjob,
> >> right, robert?
>
> >Dumbass,
>
> >Yup, you're the latest rbr nutjob. Not the best, just the newest --
> >but one with a lot of promise.
>
> >The "precisely fitting the objective facts" is the part where you
> >claim that doping on testosterone "precisely fits" being low on
> >testosterone. Oh, I guess other objective facts are that the Corriere
> >dello Sport article didn't mention testosterone, and that testosterone
> >is not the only male hormone. But it's important that you gloss those
> >over and just forge ahead.
>
> Re-read the thread, boy genius. Or fuckwit. Which ever fits.
>
> First, nowhere did I accuse DiLuca of testosterone doping . Find the
> quote if you insist.
>
> Second, I dumped on you for dumping on a poster named Keith, who made
> the incredible leap of logic, reading the article, that the hormone
> that DiLuca tested having LOW levels of, which was NOT mentioned by
> name in the article, but which was implied, was, in fact,
> testosterone. Low levels of which are found in prepubescent boys, but
> not normal males.
>
> I mean, DUH. And, we certainly will see soon whether there was
> anything to this test, or not.
>
> As far as objective facts, fuckwit, I'll reiterate the point one last
> time: According to the quoted Dr. Moosburger, no normal human body
> can perform at the levels seen in recent grand tours without a little
> help from testosterone, HGH, EPO,etc.. E.g.: Floyd Landis, Ivan
> Basso, Roberto Heras, Jan Ulrich, Tyler Hamilton, etc., etc., etc.
>
> And according to Brian Lafferty: LANCE.
>
> I'm waiting for your better explanation, but I'm not holding my
> breath.
Dumbass,
See, this is why you have such promise. Besides all the things I've
mentioned before, you can't stop digging deeper. I like the double use
of "fuckwit." That shows the first wasn't just formulaic. Nice touch.
Next step: I'll ask again to show which "objective facts" "precisely
fit" the low hormone finding: you know, the hormone which you have
assumed to be testosterone. (Hint: the proper nutjob response is to
continue as you have: ignore the direct question and instead bring in
quotes about doping in general). Don't forget the spittle and
profanity.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 15:46:29
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:50:56 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>Next step: I'll ask again to show which "objective facts" "precisely
>fit" the low hormone finding: you know, the hormone which you have
>assumed to be testosterone.
You win.
Nice troll job.
cya next thread.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 22:26:02
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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Doug Taylor wrote:
> You win.
>
> Nice troll job.
>
> cya next thread.
Its July day after tomorrow. You guys should be close to peaking by now.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 17:50:48
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<73b383ha22g5otkujg9pfkcimp9a9hok87@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
> >mean it in your case),
> >
> >So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
> >original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
> >in question is testosterone?
>
> Forget dumbass.
>
> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
OK, I will take the bait. Robert Chung has explained in
detail specific points where you make invalid
conclusions from what you read. You are as much
entrenched in a position as you accuse others to be.
You ignore lacunae in your own thinking when they are
presented. You hurl epithets whenever you feel like it,
rather than engage in rational discussion.
[...]
> You embarrass yourselves.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 12:52:04
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:50:48 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>> Forget dumbass.
>>
>> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
>
>OK, I will take the bait. Robert Chung has explained in
>detail specific points where you make invalid
>conclusions from what you read. You are as much
>entrenched in a position as you accuse others to be.
A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
going to debate what the hormone is?
Get real.
>You ignore lacunae in your own thinking when they are
>presented. You hurl epithets whenever you feel like it,
>rather than engage in rational discussion.
How can one have a rational discussion about doping in pro cycling or
any sport with someone is on record holding the opinion that it should
be universally permitted? AFIAC, that is off the bell curve fringe
nuttiness.
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 03:36:02
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 3, 11:15 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> You argue at great length with people who agree with you.
Yeah. Ain't that great?
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 18:05:35
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<1183458962.667582.212480@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >
,
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 3, 11:15 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
> > You argue at great length with people who agree with you.
>
> Yeah. Ain't that great?
He has a legitimate gripe with me because I say
riders taking drugs is alright with me.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 13:09:25
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> You argue at great length with people who agree with you.
rechungREMOVETHIS wrote:
> Yeah. Ain't that great?
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rth0535l.jpg
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 09:15:39
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 1, 6:37 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:14:13 -0000, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
> >I don't have a better explanation. I just think that
> >calling suspicions objective facts isn't actually an
> >explanation at all.
>
> Here's an other "opinion" for you, from Moosburger's patient:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul01news
> The facts are that an undoped human body can't compete with a doped
> human body; that if one gifted cyclist dopes, then the rest must in
> order to be competitive; that the levels of performance currently
> observed in bicycle racing prove doping because they are not
> achievable with an unpdoped body; and that the system is self
> perpetuating.
Douglas,
Put up. You must have an objective factual criterion
for what levels of performance are not achievable with
an undoped body. I'll accept a level of wattage, watts/kg,
vertical meters of ascent per second, or a time up
Alpe d'Huez. Let's assume that everyone better than
the threshold is doping and those below are taking
it easy on the day (since after all we know they all dope,
except David Millar). But I need to see the number.
> Disagree, flame away, if you must, but this deduction is fairly
> obvious and the smoke is clearing on the "facts" as more and more
> cyclists get busted and/or confess.
You argue at great length with people who agree with you.
Or at least, I partially agree. I think doping is
pervasive in pro cycling. The difference between us is
that I only think it, I don't _know_ it, and you _know_ it
as an objective quantitative fact. So you must have some
objective proof beyond what Moosburger (who isn't privy
to many riders' training regimens) and Jaksche (who is,
but who is also trying to excuse himself) report.
_Knowing_ that something is true on shaky evidence
and calling out everyone who points out that your proof
has holes as a fuckwit who can't see the imminent danger
has a name. I expect it to show up it in the next
edition of the DSM. It is Cheney Syndrome.
Ben
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 11:34:22
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> I'll accept a level of wattage, watts/kg,
> vertical meters of ascent per second, or a time up
> Alpe d'Huez.
How about:
integral { 0 to infinity } [ exp ( - t / tau ) P^N dt ]
where tau = a characteristic recovery time (2 days?)
N is some suitable exponent (4?)
and P is mechanical power produced.
Dan
P.S. vertical meters/hr tends to overestimate results for steeper relative to shallower hills, even over 8%.
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Date: 01 Jul 2007 08:57:08
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 1, 3:37 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> Here's an other "opinion" for you, from Moosburger's patient:
Dumbass,
You are very, very good. You said good-bye in a huff, then you come
back. So, let's update the list: you have the reading comprehension
thing, the righteous indignation thing, the Dunning-Kruger thing, the
digging-deeper-holes thing, and now the revolving door thing.
Congratulations. You're a nut.
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Date: 01 Jul 2007 15:54:10
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:57:08 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jul 1, 3:37 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's an other "opinion" for you, from Moosburger's patient:
>
>Dumbass,
>
>You are very, very good. You said good-bye in a huff, then you come
>back. So, let's update the list: you have the reading comprehension
>thing, the righteous indignation thing, the Dunning-Kruger thing, the
>digging-deeper-holes thing, and now the revolving door thing.
>Congratulations. You're a nut.
I said goodbye to you, because you were trolling to get a rise out of
me and I bit.
Now you've called me back out.
If I fit the newbie nut role, you fit the that of the smug,
condescending, old timer. You want a debate, then why don't you focus
on the point of the discussion?
My point was, and is, that, Moosburger and Jaksche have it correct:
the whole pro peloton dopes. It is impossible to compete at that
level without EPO, testosterone, HGH, etc.
Furthermore, anybody who can't see it is an cretin; anybody who denies
it is a liar; and anybody who defends it is a shill.
You have yet to offer a more convincing explanation for the current
level of performance of pro cyclists.
Why don't you?
Congratulations. You're a troll.
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 18:24:57
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<q3p783lt0c8880hm2ocbq8ik8ali2c849g@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:50:48 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> Forget dumbass.
> >>
> >> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
> >
> >OK, I will take the bait. Robert Chung has explained in
> >detail specific points where you make invalid
> >conclusions from what you read. You are as much
> >entrenched in a position as you accuse others to be.
>
> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
> going to debate what the hormone is?
You are debating it. You infer which hormone.
At first you did not even know that you inferred.
You wrote as if a particular hormone was announced officially.
Notice that I am not debating about hormones.
> Get real.
Whatever that means.
> >You ignore lacunae in your own thinking when they are
> >presented. You hurl epithets whenever you feel like it,
> >rather than engage in rational discussion.
>
> How can one have a rational discussion about doping in pro cycling or
> any sport with someone is on record holding the opinion that it should
> be universally permitted? AFIAC, that is off the bell curve fringe
> nuttiness.
Are you characterizing my stated position? If so it is
up to you to cite exactly where I stated what you say I
said. For the record I did not say what you seem to
think I said. This is another example of you acting as
if something were said that was in fact not said and
becoming agitated over your misconstruction.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 16:14:13
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:24:57 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>Are you characterizing my stated position? If so it is
>up to you to cite exactly where I stated what you say I
>said. For the record I did not say what you seem to
>think I said. This is another example of you acting as
>if something were said that was in fact not said and
>becoming agitated over your misconstruction.
Dumbass:
How's this for starters?
From: Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net >
Date: Feb 2, 6:25 pm
Subject: hyper hypocrisy
To: rec.bicycles.racing
Depends what you mean by acceptable and who says so. I
think doping today is as acceptable as at any time in
history. I'll go further and say it is acceptable for a
cyclist to dope.
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 23:33:30
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<nh58835dg2uut6t730afcs01hemg1iq861@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:24:57 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Are you characterizing my stated position? If so it is
> >up to you to cite exactly where I stated what you say I
> >said. For the record I did not say what you seem to
> >think I said. This is another example of you acting as
> >if something were said that was in fact not said and
> >becoming agitated over your misconstruction.
>
> Dumbass:
>
> How's this for starters?
>
> From: Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net>
> Date: Feb 2, 6:25 pm
> Subject: hyper hypocrisy
> To: rec.bicycles.racing
>
>
> Depends what you mean by acceptable and who says so. I
> think doping today is as acceptable as at any time in
> history. I'll go further and say it is acceptable for a
> cyclist to dope.
And here is what you said that you omit from this message:
In article
<q3p783lt0c8880hm2ocbq8ik8ali2c849g@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> How can one have a rational discussion about doping in pro cycling or
> any sport with someone is on record holding the opinion that it should
> be universally permitted? AFIAC, that is off the bell curve fringe
> nuttiness.
I never said it should be universally permitted.
Of course, when I say "it is acceptable for a cyclist
to dope" I cannot mean anything other than `in my
opinion.'
Only thing I ever said about what policy _should_ be is
that the policy be practical, the laboratory protocols
be clear, the science solid, enforcement even handed,
due process observed, announcements made only after the
findings are final, and first across the line wins with
no take-backs.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 20:24:43
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:33:30 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>Only thing I ever said about what policy _should_ be is
>that the policy be practical, the laboratory protocols
>be clear, the science solid, enforcement even handed,
>due process observed, announcements made only after the
>findings are final, and first across the line wins with
>no take-backs.
Hey, Mike. There's a job for you in the Bush Administration. Cheney
could use someone with your ability to parse and spin. Keep up the
good work.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 04:37:39
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<e7k883p2q04sp4pnbe5fkfdspqe0qcr8ab@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:33:30 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Only thing I ever said about what policy _should_ be is
> >that the policy be practical, the laboratory protocols
> >be clear, the science solid, enforcement even handed,
> >due process observed, announcements made only after the
> >findings are final, and first across the line wins with
> >no take-backs.
>
> Hey, Mike. There's a job for you in the Bush Administration. Cheney
> could use someone with your ability to parse and spin. Keep up the
> good work.
You compare me favorably with a guy with so much power
that he could ruin your life if it mattered to him,
which it does not. Should my feelings be hurt?
All this to avoid seeing into yourself. When it is
shown to you that you misinterpret what you read you
lash out rather than being a man.
--
Michael Press
|
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 13:48:24
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:37:39 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>You compare me favorably with a guy with so much power
>that he could ruin your life if it mattered to him,
>which it does not. Should my feelings be hurt?
>
>All this to avoid seeing into yourself. When it is
>shown to you that you misinterpret what you read you
>lash out rather than being a man.
Your words speak for themselves. As do mine.
Yours: "It is acceptable for a cyclist to dope."
Mine: "No, it's not."
I believe your implication is that it is acceptable in the sense that
it keeps the playing field is level. That has a certain appeal - "he
does it, so I have to do it, too, or lose" - but it comes down to the
logical fallacy of two wrongs making a right.
Somebody posted along the lines of, what does doping in sports matter
in the scheme of things?
It matters because sports are a diversion, whether participatory,
spectator, or both, they have HUGE appeal worldwide, whether
participatory, spectator, or both. Whether football, cycling, skiing
in Europe; baseball and (yankee) football in the USA; basketball in
both, track and filed, swimming, grand prix, yada yada yada. And in
many respects they are a microcosm of societies at large.
So, does civilized society operate under the rule of law, or anarchy?
Do we have rules in sports, or, apologies to Butch Cassidy, is it a
knife fight?
I mentioned kids. If your kid is a phenom stud is cycling, football,
whatever, do you shoot him/her up to get the big contract?
Tell me again why all this is so irrelevant, why it's "acceptable to
dope" and why it's me who's the nutjob.
|
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 15:13:25
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<fqfa83heuu51ql3111u12qh68hre4ttdhp@4ax.com >,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:37:39 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >You compare me favorably with a guy with so much power
> >that he could ruin your life if it mattered to him,
> >which it does not. Should my feelings be hurt?
> >
> >All this to avoid seeing into yourself. When it is
> >shown to you that you misinterpret what you read you
> >lash out rather than being a man.
>
> Your words speak for themselves. As do mine.
>
> Yours: "It is acceptable for a cyclist to dope."
>
> Mine: "No, it's not."
>
> I believe your implication is that it is acceptable in the sense that
> it keeps the playing field is level. That has a certain appeal - "he
> does it, so I have to do it, too, or lose" - but it comes down to the
> logical fallacy of two wrongs making a right.
>
> Somebody posted along the lines of, what does doping in sports matter
> in the scheme of things?
>
> It matters because sports are a diversion, whether participatory,
> spectator, or both, they have HUGE appeal worldwide, whether
> participatory, spectator, or both. Whether football, cycling, skiing
> in Europe; baseball and (yankee) football in the USA; basketball in
> both, track and filed, swimming, grand prix, yada yada yada. And in
> many respects they are a microcosm of societies at large.
>
> So, does civilized society operate under the rule of law, or anarchy?
> Do we have rules in sports, or, apologies to Butch Cassidy, is it a
> knife fight?
It is a knife fight.
> I mentioned kids. If your kid is a phenom stud is cycling, football,
> whatever, do you shoot him/her up to get the big contract?
I stipulate the you occupy the moral high ground.
> Tell me again why all this is so irrelevant, why it's "acceptable to
> dope" and why it's me who's the nutjob.
You are now saying, or implying if you are going to be
scrupulous, that I so characterized you. It is once
again time for you to cite evidence supporting this
assertion. You will be unable to support it, giving
another example of misreading text.
Have you looked up `Dunning-Kruger effect', which
rechung mentioned in regard to you?
--
Michael Press
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 07:56:34
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor schreef:
> What hormone is implied? Let me think.
Take your pick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen
--
E. Dronkert
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 19:51:44
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 26, 11:54 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
>> >> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
>> >> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
>> >> the dope yourself.
>>
>> >Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
>> >case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
>> >stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
>>
>> No, what triggered the B test, was the abnormal ratio >4 of
>> testo/epitesto
>
>Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
>mean it in your case),
>
>So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
>original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
>in question is testosterone?
You're an idiot and have wasted enough of my time, get lost.
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:49:47
From: Frank Drackman
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Keith" <nospam@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:1hk28392853j8q3cq4iplbi3m0ovcbk1c4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> You're an idiot and have wasted enough of my time, get lost.
Dale Carnegie is rolling in his grave.
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:59:52
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<1hk28392853j8q3cq4iplbi3m0ovcbk1c4@4ax.com >,
Keith <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:08:26 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Jun 26, 11:54 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
> >> >> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
> >> >> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
> >> >> the dope yourself.
> >>
> >> >Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
> >> >case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
> >> >stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
> >>
> >> No, what triggered the B test, was the abnormal ratio >4 of
> >> testo/epitesto
> >
> >Dumbass (and this isn't just the rbr-compliant salutation -- I really
> >mean it in your case),
> >
> >So, you now agree that epitestosterone is another hormone. I repeat my
> >original question: where in either story does it say that the hormone
> >in question is testosterone?
>
> You're an idiot and have wasted enough of my time, get lost.
When you have no power or authority, the appropriate
tag to a condemnation is to bid adieu.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
> the dope yourself.
Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 16:18:37
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > Dumbass,
> >> > If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
> >> > and
> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>
> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
>
> Greg
> --
> Ticketbastard tax tracker:http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
>
> Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Nah. It applies to you in it's non salutory "fucking asshole July
troll" meaning.
Bill C
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 18:26:42
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1182986317.731420.17990@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> > Dumbass,
>> >> > If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really
>> >> > need
>> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
>> >> > and
>> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>>
>> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>>
>> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>>
>> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>>
>> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and
>> you
>> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
>>
>
> Nah. It applies to you in it's non salutory "fucking asshole July
> troll" meaning.
Je ne comprends pas!!!?!!!
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
|
| | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 23:14:36
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > Dumbass,
> >> > If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
> >> > and
> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>
> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
Baaaaaaaaaaah!
R
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 11:54:20
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 26, 1:55 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
>> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
>> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
>> the dope yourself.
>
>Hmmm. How about epitestosterone? Perhaps you can think of a recent
>case where someone's epitestosterone was abnormally low after a key
>stage, and this triggered a "B" test.
No, what triggered the B test, was the abnormal ratio >4 of
testo/epitesto
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 09:57:00
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 5:58 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> >Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
> >think that means what he thinks it means.
>
> You don't?
>
> Let's go back to the cyclingnews article:
[snip]
> Hence testosterone, HGH, and EPO.
>
> The guy's a doctor who has advised and treated prof. bike racers.
> Makes a shitload of sense to me, but I'm just the latest rbr nutjob,
> right, robert?
Dumbass,
Yup, you're the latest rbr nutjob. Not the best, just the newest --
but one with a lot of promise.
The "precisely fitting the objective facts" is the part where you
claim that doping on testosterone "precisely fits" being low on
testosterone. Oh, I guess other objective facts are that the Corriere
dello Sport article didn't mention testosterone, and that testosterone
is not the only male hormone. But it's important that you gloss those
over and just forge ahead.
Could I suggest you go back to using the "Fuckwit" salutation? That's
not key, but it does help.
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 14:07:34
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:57:00 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 29, 5:58 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> >Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
>> >think that means what he thinks it means.
>>
>> You don't?
>>
>> Let's go back to the cyclingnews article:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Hence testosterone, HGH, and EPO.
>>
>> The guy's a doctor who has advised and treated prof. bike racers.
>> Makes a shitload of sense to me, but I'm just the latest rbr nutjob,
>> right, robert?
>
>Dumbass,
>
>Yup, you're the latest rbr nutjob. Not the best, just the newest --
>but one with a lot of promise.
>
>The "precisely fitting the objective facts" is the part where you
>claim that doping on testosterone "precisely fits" being low on
>testosterone. Oh, I guess other objective facts are that the Corriere
>dello Sport article didn't mention testosterone, and that testosterone
>is not the only male hormone. But it's important that you gloss those
>over and just forge ahead.
Re-read the thread, boy genius. Or fuckwit. Which ever fits.
First, nowhere did I accuse DiLuca of testosterone doping . Find the
quote if you insist.
Second, I dumped on you for dumping on a poster named Keith, who made
the incredible leap of logic, reading the article, that the hormone
that DiLuca tested having LOW levels of, which was NOT mentioned by
name in the article, but which was implied, was, in fact,
testosterone. Low levels of which are found in prepubescent boys, but
not normal males.
I mean, DUH. And, we certainly will see soon whether there was
anything to this test, or not.
As far as objective facts, fuckwit, I'll reiterate the point one last
time: According to the quoted Dr. Moosburger, no normal human body
can perform at the levels seen in recent grand tours without a little
help from testosterone, HGH, EPO,etc.. E.g.: Floyd Landis, Ivan
Basso, Roberto Heras, Jan Ulrich, Tyler Hamilton, etc., etc., etc.
And according to Brian Lafferty: LANCE.
I'm waiting for your better explanation, but I'm not holding my
breath.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jun 2007 16:00:34
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 26, 12:15 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:17:20 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Jun 25, 1:31 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
> >wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=3Dnews/2007/jun07/jun25news&fr=
om...
>
> >> Fromhttp://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
>
> >Where in either story does it say that the hormone in question is
> >testosterone?
>
> there you go smartass : "decreased levels of testosterone"
Smartass, perhaps, but at least I can read. This is about the 2007
Giro, and "decreased levels of testosterone" refers to "a study of
riders in the 1999 Vuelta a Espa=F1a"
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 07:21:07
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 3:57 pm, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> rbr needs to recruit a few more nutjobs.
This is what I'm saying. Doug has got real potential. He's got the
reading comprehension thing, he's got the righteous indignation thing,
he's got the Dunning-Kruger thing: he's got some game. We just need to
nurture it.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 07:16:19
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 2:54 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>
> >You are comedy gold.
>
> Welcome to my show: I'm just the straight man.
I know, and it's great.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 13:43:48
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 3:11 pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com > wrote:
> Please feel free to infer a virtual win in this thread and move on to
> a more interesting one.
Oh please no, please encourage him to stay here. I'm still waiting for
him to explain how what has been reported is consistent with "the best
assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
the objective facts."
Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
think that means what he thinks it means.
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 11:58:17
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:43:48 -0000, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 29, 3:11 pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Please feel free to infer a virtual win in this thread and move on to
>> a more interesting one.
>
>Oh please no, please encourage him to stay here. I'm still waiting for
>him to explain how what has been reported is consistent with "the best
>assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
>the objective facts."
>
>Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
>think that means what he thinks it means.
You don't?
Let's go back to the cyclingnews article:
[quote]In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds
of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in
last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You
can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles
are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up
to three days in order to regenerate." [/quote]
Hence testosterone, HGH, and EPO.
The guy's a doctor who has advised and treated prof. bike racers.
Makes a shitload of sense to me, but I'm just the latest rbr nutjob,
right, robert?
I know you have years of rbr cred. Let's hear your more reasonable
and convincing theory of how cyclists in Grand Tours can maintain
phenomenal levels of performance, day after day - which are "the
objective facts."
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 15:57:37
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
rechungREMOVETHIS wrote:
> Oh please no, please encourage him to stay here. I'm still waiting for
> him to explain how what has been reported is consistent with "the best
> assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
> the objective facts."
>
> Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
> think that means what he thinks it means.
rbr needs to recruit a few more nutjobs. We've been downsized since Bruce
left us. Some of those other newsgroups seems to have much better nutjobs
than us, judging by this thread. I blame LIVEDRUNK for having a calming
effect on our nutjobs.
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 22:20:31
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<46850fca$0$14792$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com >,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
> rechungREMOVETHIS wrote:
> > Oh please no, please encourage him to stay here. I'm still waiting for
> > him to explain how what has been reported is consistent with "the best
> > assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
> > the objective facts."
> >
> > Because that phrase, "precisely fitting the objective facts?" I don't
> > think that means what he thinks it means.
>
> rbr needs to recruit a few more nutjobs. We've been downsized since Bruce
> left us. Some of those other newsgroups seems to have much better nutjobs
> than us, judging by this thread. I blame LIVEDRUNK for having a calming
> effect on our nutjobs.
Ed Dolan and Bill Baka are just up the hall.
You could cross-post to rec.bicycles.misc.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 06:11:56
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 29, 8:54 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>
> I said, using the what Bill Sornson would insist is the "national
> language of the USA" known as "English", that the implied but not
> specifically named "certain hormone" was testosterone.
I believe that the point is that an implied fact is not the same as a
plainly stated fact.
You might be right or wrong about the hormone - time will tell.
This is besides the point.
There's way too much implication and inference in connection with
doping in cycling. It does no one any good, and it does a lot of harm
to the riders, fans and sport. The only people that benefit from
implied/inferred doping guilt are the doping agencies and people with
political agendas.
Please feel free to infer a virtual win in this thread and move on to
a more interesting one.
R
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 20:19:23
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 28, 10:56 pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
> > either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
> > capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> How do you know your kids don't dope. Have you had them tested?
Maybe they signed an agreement to forfeit a year's allowance?
R
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 16:49:12
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 28, 7:20 pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:11:20 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Just allowing it would have been more honest, when in reality it was
> >> allowed, condoned, and encouraged when it made the sport more
> >> exciting.
>
> > Indeed. And look how it has evolved from food supplements, to popping
> > pills, to injecting 'roids, EPO, HGH, and god knows what else. And
> > will likely evolve into genetic engineering and the like.
>
> > O, Brave New World.
>
> > Glad I'm not a pro athlete who is forced by circumstances to choose to
> > dope for present bucks and glory and risk future health problems.
>
> > Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
> > either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
> > capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>
> > You?
>
> Evolved? WTF! Just how stupid are you?
>
> How is it different for your sons than when you were young? Other
> than you were OK with all the shit that was going on because you
> didn't see it.
>
> Google albert+londres+dynamite, it was no different for your
> great grandfather.
>
> Bob Schwartz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bob I'm glad his kids sound basically straight edge. I do think it
would be awesome if they had pro level talent.
You touched on how this has been going on for a long time, and Kurgan
has made the point that it's going on in wider society too.
Most of you know our family has, and still is dealing with the past
culture. Our oldest son, who was a legitimate national caliber Jr.,
especially in Cross got hooked on the 60s "expand your mind" culture
and got into Timothy Leary and all his disciples who, even today,
advocate hallucinogenics.
His excursion into hard drugs had absolutely nothing to do with
cycling, and everything to do with the culture and society.
He had a lot of solid people around him, especially in cycling and
did all the counseling, programs, and none of it mattered because he
didn't want to stop.
If you ever see Erowid popping up on your computer start asking LOTS
of questions. There's a whole culture out there online that do drug
blogs and write while wasted, and after about how great it is and they
empower each other to go even farther.
Sports and entertainment are reflections of society and it's values.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 21:28:55
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:
> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > Dumbass,
> > If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
R
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 15:02:43
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com > wrote in message
news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > Dumbass,
>> > If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
>> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
>> > and
>> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>>
>> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>>
>> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>
Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
|
| | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 09:26:53
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 10:56 am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
> > <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> Doug Taylor wrote:
> >>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
> >>> complain about WADA nazis and Dick Pound, if you want to be a jock
> >>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
> >> Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
> >> regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
> >> the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
> > OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
> > So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
> > complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
> > results, buy into such idiocy and bullshit as Floyd Landis' "defense",
> > and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
>
> > It's nutty.
>
> It's what happens when people get emotional over stuff that really isn't
> that important. Once you are invested in your favorite athlete beyond
> entertainment then an attack on their performance becomes more personal
> than it ought to be. And defense mechanisms kick in.
>
> Speaking for myself, my problem with the Pounder and WADA is they don't
> respect the integrity of the process. That is what provides openings for
> some of the behavior you mention. If they were US cops they'd get ground
> up like hamburger by the court system, regardless of the guilt or
> innocence of the accused.
>
> If bike racing were important it might bother me more. But really, if
> Barry Bonds is juiced or Joe College Football Lineman is juiced or
> Marion Jones is juiced or Floyd is juiced or Lindsey Lohan is juiced
> it matters little to me. On the list of things to be outraged about in
> our society, doping among entertainers is pretty far down the list.
>
> Bob Schwartz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Exactly Bob
The failure of the system, and the leaders integrity, is a much more
important issue than that of the riders. In the big picture none of it
is earthshaking. It's just happening in our little pond so we get
involved.
Bill C
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 17:57:17
From: Doug Smith
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in news:1182961613.483199.221020
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> Exactly Bob
> The failure of the system, and the leaders integrity, is a much more
> important issue than that of the riders. In the big picture none of it
> is earthshaking. It's just happening in our little pond so we get
> involved.
> Bill C
Maybe that's also part of the problem. Shouldn't the riders also be
leaders?
It's true though, if you follow the power and the money you'll find the
origins of the problem. However, that does not mean that the riders need
to lose their intregity. Personally, I don't think any person or group's
integrity is more important than another and I'm not talking about just
cycling.
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 01:55:50
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:00:34 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 26, 12:15 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:17:20 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >On Jun 25, 1:31 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from...
>>
>> >> Fromhttp://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
>>
>> >Where in either story does it say that the hormone in question is
>> >testosterone?
>>
>> there you go smartass : "decreased levels of testosterone"
>
>Smartass, perhaps, but at least I can read. This is about the 2007
>Giro, and "decreased levels of testosterone" refers to "a study of
>riders in the 1999 Vuelta a España"
ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
the dope yourself.
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 07:58:40
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 10:34 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
>
> Bring back Hein.
Hein? As in Heineken? I'll drink to that! Fookin' hot out there
today.
R
|
| | | | |
Date: 27 Jun 2007 17:27:48
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>
>> Bring back Hein.
RicodJour wrote:
> Hein? As in Heineken? I'll drink to that! Fookin' hot out there
> today.
Verbruggen beer comes in at 49.9%, so even the Russians would enjoy it.
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jun 2007 02:06:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<7cl0831pnmfo1lkjgli33uj90jc0fimesf@4ax.com >,
Keith <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:00:34 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Jun 26, 12:15 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:17:20 -0700, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >On Jun 25, 1:31 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from...
> >>
> >> >> Fromhttp://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
> >>
> >> >Where in either story does it say that the hormone in question is
> >> >testosterone?
> >>
> >> there you go smartass : "decreased levels of testosterone"
> >
> >Smartass, perhaps, but at least I can read. This is about the 2007
> >Giro, and "decreased levels of testosterone" refers to "a study of
> >riders in the 1999 Vuelta a España"
>
> ouch...so you think the guy who wrote that is a total idiot and wrote
> a random comment at the end of his article...Besides can you fill us
> in on other male hormones you know of ? I would suggest you get off
> the dope yourself.
I think people who write popular journal articles are
masters of misleading the reader. Apparently, you do
not need any supplemental dope.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 25 Jun 2007 13:17:20
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 25, 1:31 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org >
wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from...
>
> From http://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
Where in either story does it say that the hormone in question is
testosterone?
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 06:56:57
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
> going to debate what the hormone is?
>
> Get real.
Dumbass,
So you're saying that testing low for a "certain hormone" is proof of
doping with that "certain hormone"?
You are comedy gold.
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 08:54:19
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:56:57 -0000, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
>> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
>> going to debate what the hormone is?
>>
>> Get real.
>
>Dumbass,
>
>So you're saying that testing low for a "certain hormone" is proof of
>doping with that "certain hormone"?
>
Fuckwit:
I said, using the what Bill Sornson would insist is the "national
language of the USA" known as "English", that the implied but not
specifically named "certain hormone" was testosterone.
You and Press mocked posters who made this profound leap of logic.
For what reason, other than smug, smirking condescension, is anybody's
guess.
Meanwhile, those of us with reading comprehension above the level of
cretin understand that, according to the quoted article, DiLuca et. al
tested low. That's it. Who knows what that means? Masking agent?
Total coincidence? Regression to pre-puberty? Nothing at all?
It's an open question. I'll wait and see. Maybe you should too.
>You are comedy gold.
Welcome to my show: I'm just the straight man.
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 02:49:40
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 2, 11:06 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Statisticians need monkeys to perform medical medical experiments on.
http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/2007/06/science_vault_monkey_to_human.php
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 01:11:31
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 2, 7:48 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> > Do you have a li-sanse for your minkey?
>
> This thread is reminding me why I oppose keeping exotic pets.
>
> Chung: release that poor animal into the wild!
He just followed me home, honest. Speaking of the children, recently I
had occasion to re-read "Curious George." That man in the big yellow
hat? He's definitely way too interested in little monkeys if you know
what I mean and I'm sure that you do.
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 05:08:38
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 1, 6:03 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 1, 9:54 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> > I said goodbye to you, because you were trolling to get a rise out of
> > me and I bit.
>
> > Now you've called me back out.
> > You have yet to offer a more convincing explanation for the current
> > level of performance of pro cyclists.
>
> > Why don't you?
>
> Dumbass,
>
> 'Cuz I'm not your monkey. You, OTOH, appear to be mine.
Do you have a li-sanse for your minkey?
R
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 22:46:21
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<1183352918.653261.46000@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 6:03 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 1, 9:54 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I said goodbye to you, because you were trolling to get a rise out of
> > > me and I bit.
> >
> > > Now you've called me back out.
> > > You have yet to offer a more convincing explanation for the current
> > > level of performance of pro cyclists.
> >
> > > Why don't you?
> >
> > Dumbass,
> >
> > 'Cuz I'm not your monkey. You, OTOH, appear to be mine.
>
> Do you have a li-sanse for your minkey?
I am a poor blind man trying to get by.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 05:48:50
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article <1183352918.653261.46000@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 6:03 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 1, 9:54 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I said goodbye to you, because you were trolling to get a rise out of
> > > me and I bit.
> >
> > > Now you've called me back out.
> > > You have yet to offer a more convincing explanation for the current
> > > level of performance of pro cyclists.
> >
> > > Why don't you?
> >
> > Dumbass,
> >
> > 'Cuz I'm not your monkey. You, OTOH, appear to be mine.
>
> Do you have a li-sanse for your minkey?
>
> R
This thread is reminding me why I oppose keeping exotic pets.
Chung: release that poor animal into the wild!
(As I type this, my dog, rubber toy in its mouth, is repeatedly running
from the kitchen to the living room, and then back again. It's like
reading rbr. Or maybe doing interval training.)
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 11:06:48
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
rechung wrote:
>> > 'Cuz I'm not your monkey. You, OTOH, appear to be mine.
RicodJour wrote:
>> Do you have a li-sanse for your minkey?
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> This thread is reminding me why I oppose keeping exotic pets.
> Chung: release that poor animal into the wild!
Statisticians need monkeys to perform medical medical experiments on.
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Jul 2007 15:03:39
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jul 1, 9:54 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> I said goodbye to you, because you were trolling to get a rise out of
> me and I bit.
>
> Now you've called me back out.
> You have yet to offer a more convincing explanation for the current
> level of performance of pro cyclists.
>
> Why don't you?
Dumbass,
'Cuz I'm not your monkey. You, OTOH, appear to be mine.
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 09:36:35
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:54:19 -0400, Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:56:57 -0000, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
>>> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
>>> going to debate what the hormone is?
>>>
>>> Get real.
>>
>>Dumbass,
>>
>>So you're saying that testing low for a "certain hormone" is proof of
>>doping with that "certain hormone"?
>>
>Fuckwit:
>
>I said, using the what Bill Sornson would insist is the "national
>language of the USA" known as "English", that the implied but not
>specifically named "certain hormone" was testosterone.
>
>You and Press mocked posters who made this profound leap of logic.
>For what reason, other than smug, smirking condescension, is anybody's
>guess.
>
>Meanwhile, those of us with reading comprehension above the level of
>cretin understand that, according to the quoted article, DiLuca et. al
>tested low. That's it. Who knows what that means? Masking agent?
>Total coincidence? Regression to pre-puberty? Nothing at all?
>
>It's an open question. I'll wait and see. Maybe you should too.
Extreme exertion over a period of days and weeks causes lowered testosterone
production. Since the last TdF everyone's afraid to slap on the sack patch or
rub on a dose of the get, so for the first time in years the lab is seeing an
unsupplemented T level and thinks it's low.
How's that for a hairy ass guess.
>>You are comedy gold.
>
>Welcome to my show: I'm just the straight man.
Yeah, now will you get a proper comic sidekick and quite with the monkey.
Ron
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 00:30:36
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
>> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
>> going to debate what the hormone is?
>>
>> Get real.
>
> Dumbass,
>
Jesus fucking christ, what is up with this lameass bumdass shit? It's
so incredibly fucking boring. I guess roadies must crave boring.
Greg
--
http://ticketmastersucks.org
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 12:27:56
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
G.T. wrote:
> rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
>>> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
>>> going to debate what the hormone is?
>>>
>>> Get real.
>>
>> Dumbass,
>>
>
> Jesus fucking christ, what is up with this lameass bumdass shit? It's
> so incredibly fucking boring. I guess roadies must crave boring.
>
> Greg
Fockstick,
Is this better?
Bob Schwartz
|
| | | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 10:59:08
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>> rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
>>>> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
>>>> going to debate what the hormone is?
>>>>
>>>> Get real.
>>>
>>> Dumbass,
>>>
>>
>> Jesus fucking christ, what is up with this lameass bumdass shit? It's
>> so incredibly fucking boring. I guess roadies must crave boring.
>>
>> Greg
>
> Fockstick,
>
> Is this better?
Marginally.
Greg
--
"Dethink to survive" - Mclusky
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 11:23:16
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 28, 6:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
> going to debate what the hormone is?
>
> Get real.
Dumbass,
You're starting to show real promise as a nutjob. Please stick around
and let us help you develop your potential. May I suggest a tiny bit
more spittle and maybe branching out to, say, women's racing or the
injustices of bike warranties?
--Robert
rbr talent scout
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 10:11:20
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 28, 12:52 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:50:48 -0700, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> Forget dumbass.
>
> >> Fuckwit (and I really mean it in your case and Michael Press's case)
>
> >OK, I will take the bait. Robert Chung has explained in
> >detail specific points where you make invalid
> >conclusions from what you read. You are as much
> >entrenched in a position as you accuse others to be.
>
> A male professional bike racer tests for lower than is normal for
> males above puberty for a "certain hormone" and you are seriously
> going to debate what the hormone is?
>
> Get real.
>
> >You ignore lacunae in your own thinking when they are
> >presented. You hurl epithets whenever you feel like it,
> >rather than engage in rational discussion.
>
> How can one have a rational discussion about doping in pro cycling or
> any sport with someone is on record holding the opinion that it should
> be universally permitted? AFIAC, that is off the bell curve fringe
> nuttiness.
Just like in the 70s and 80s when baseball players were grabbing
"Greenies" out of bowls on team training tables, and learning from
Arnold how to shoot 'roids into their asses.
Almost every sport has had language they had no intention of
enforcing no matter how public the doping was.
Just allowing it would have been more honest, when in reality it was
allowed, condoned, and encouraged when it made the sport more
exciting.
Bill C
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 16:25:18
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:11:20 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net >
wrote:
> Just allowing it would have been more honest, when in reality it was
>allowed, condoned, and encouraged when it made the sport more
>exciting.
Indeed. And look how it has evolved from food supplements, to popping
pills, to injecting 'roids, EPO, HGH, and god knows what else. And
will likely evolve into genetic engineering and the like.
O, Brave New World.
Glad I'm not a pro athlete who is forced by circumstances to choose to
dope for present bucks and glory and risk future health problems.
Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
You?
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 02:56:00
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
Dumbass,
How do you know your kids don't dope. Have you had them tested?
Bob Schwartz
|
| | | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 09:04:31
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:56:00 GMT, Bob Schwartz
<bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net > wrote:
>Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
>> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
>> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>
>Dumbass,
>
>How do you know your kids don't dope. Have you had them tested?
Fuckwit:
No need. The older one and I get high together all the time. If he
was holding out on me with EPO or HGH, I'd know. I'd also raid his
stash (I no longer have a USAC license, so I'd only be cheating other
fat club riders). C'mon, be honest: wouldn't you? Even if that made
us into flaming hypocrites?
The younger is so straight edge he's boring. "I'm not putting any
smoke in my lungs." If he won't even inhale, somehow I doubt he'd be
into needles. What's up with Gen next?
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 21:19:59
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:4x_gi.18546$RX.15048@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
>> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
>> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>
> Dumbass,
Jesus fucking christ, what is up with this lameass bumdass shit? It's so
incredibly fucking boring.
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 29 Jun 2007 00:09:14
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
G.T. wrote:
> "Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:4x_gi.18546$RX.15048@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
>>> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
>>> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>> Dumbass,
>
> Jesus fucking christ, what is up with this lameass bumdass shit? It's so
> incredibly fucking boring.
Dumbass,
I'll stop right away. God forbid that you should be bored. Should I copy
this into 541 other threads so that everyone gets the message?
Bob Schwartz
|
| | | | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 23:20:51
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:11:20 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Just allowing it would have been more honest, when in reality it was
>> allowed, condoned, and encouraged when it made the sport more
>> exciting.
>
> Indeed. And look how it has evolved from food supplements, to popping
> pills, to injecting 'roids, EPO, HGH, and god knows what else. And
> will likely evolve into genetic engineering and the like.
>
> O, Brave New World.
>
> Glad I'm not a pro athlete who is forced by circumstances to choose to
> dope for present bucks and glory and risk future health problems.
>
> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>
> You?
Evolved? WTF! Just how stupid are you?
How is it different for your sons than when you were young? Other
than you were OK with all the shit that was going on because you
didn't see it.
Google albert+londres+dynamite, it was no different for your
great grandfather.
Bob Schwartz
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Jun 2007 20:19:05
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:20:51 GMT, Bob Schwartz
<bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net > wrote:
>Doug Taylor wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:11:20 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just allowing it would have been more honest, when in reality it was
>>> allowed, condoned, and encouraged when it made the sport more
>>> exciting.
>>
>> Indeed. And look how it has evolved from food supplements, to popping
>> pills, to injecting 'roids, EPO, HGH, and god knows what else. And
>> will likely evolve into genetic engineering and the like.
>>
>> O, Brave New World.
>>
>> Glad I'm not a pro athlete who is forced by circumstances to choose to
>> dope for present bucks and glory and risk future health problems.
>>
>> Glad my 2 sons, one who runs distance and one who races bikes, aren't
>> either. Both are health freaks, neither dopes, neither approaches pro
>> capabilities. Can't say that bothers me.
>>
>> You?
>
>Evolved? WTF! Just how stupid are you?
>
>How is it different for your sons than when you were young? Other
>than you were OK with all the shit that was going on because you
>didn't see it.
>
>Google albert+londres+dynamite, it was no different for your
>great grandfather.
>
HUH? Who is stupid? Dude, the drugs you're using manifestly are not
performance enhancing. Time to look into a 12 step program?
You don't believe in evolution? You don't believe that the science
and technology in the year 2007 is a wee bit more sophisticated than
in 1907? Or 1957? You don't believe that injecting EPO is a wee bit
more effective in enhancing performance than popping a greenie or
sipping from a wineskin? What planet are you really from?
Understood that the playing fields in each era are level for the era,
but when it comes to performance enhancing substances - if that
variable can be isolated - you can NOT translate between eras on an
equal basis. You cannot directly compare an Armstrong with a Coppi or
Merckx; or a Bonds with a Ruth or Aaron. Not only was the training
and equipment less sophisticated 20, 30, 50, 80 years ago, so were the
drugs. Big time. It is so obvious I have no clue what you must be
thinking or, indeed, if you are thinking.
If the evolutionary trend keeps moving at the same rate, the science
fiction of genetic engineering is just around the corner. You'd like
that?
The other side of the coin is that the science of testing and
detection also evolves in step with the dope, as does public
awareness. What WAS swept under the rug 20, 30, 50 years ago is big
news today. Look at this newsgroup. Google Bonds+Aaron+steroids.
Dope use vs. dope detection is analogous to computer virus's vs. virus
software. The former is a step ahead, but the latter is continually
getting closer to its heels.
Which is why there are pollyanna idealists out here in la la land,
like me, who seriously hope that at least some athletic contests -
cycling and the Olympics included - may actually be consigned to
normally bred humans ingesting food through the mouth rather than
injecting via a needle in the ass or a vein.
You may not think so, but at least use your brain a bit in the debate
and refrain from sounding like a slack jawed inbred moron.
Thanks, Bob.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 02:51:06
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
> You don't believe in evolution? You don't believe that the science
> and technology in the year 2007 is a wee bit more sophisticated than
> in 1907? Or 1957? You don't believe that injecting EPO is a wee bit
> more effective in enhancing performance than popping a greenie or
> sipping from a wineskin? What planet are you really from?
I think that 40 years ago the National Football League was being
transformed by steroids and that being on the bleeding edge involved
risks to your health because people didn't know what the fuck they
were doing.
I think 15 years ago people were taking much lower risks with
steroids because knowledge of their use had expanded. But that
people were taking risks with EPO because they didn't know what
the fuck they were doing.
I think taking EPO is less risky today, but today someone
somewhere is doing something very risky where they don't know
what the fuck they are doing.
I think 80 years ago Henri Pélissier was risking his health by
taking shit where he didn't know what the fuck he was doing. That
was the whole point of his rant to Londres.
I think there has always been and will always be people that will
take ill advised risks to gain a performance advantage.
I think you're seriously retarded.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 11:59:06
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 2:17 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:
>
> Breakfast at le Tour:
>
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
missed the other five.
R
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:22:31
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com > wrote in message
news:1182970746.934825.297200@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 27, 2:17 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>
>> Breakfast at le Tour:
>>
>> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
>
> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
> missed the other five.
>
Ok.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 22:26:10
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
RicodJou wrote:
>> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
>> missed the other five.
G.T. wrote:
> Ok.
>
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
Dumbass,
If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:40:56
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4682c810$0$14779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> RicodJou wrote:
>>> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
>>> missed the other five.
>
> G.T. wrote:
>> Ok.
>>
>> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
>
> Dumbass,
> If you want to sell that shit to the fatty masters here you really need
> to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
> perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 09:03:57
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 11:28 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> >> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
> >> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
> >> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a shit.
>
> RicodJour wrote:
> > Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
> > mind I had.
>
> You forgot to ask whether they breed with each other.
It was implied - similar to the implied testosterone.
I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
R
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 18:23:30
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
RicodJour wrote:
> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
Personally I like a bit of panache sprinkled on my testosterone. Much
better than parmesian cheese (and at least we're back on fatty master
topic of food).
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 11:17:28
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
>> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
>> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
>
> Personally I like a bit of panache sprinkled on my testosterone. Much
> better than parmesian cheese (and at least we're back on fatty master
> topic of food).
Breakfast at le Tour:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
Greg
--
http://ticketmastersucks.org
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 17:20:05
From: Dan Gregory
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
RicodJour wrote:
> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
I still remember the lyrics & meloday of a song I heard on
ThatWasTheWeekThatWas in the 60's
"copulazione's the Italian for love
Fornicazione's with the stars up above"
but I can't remember the actual song...
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:15:24
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 27, 8:57 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>
> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a shit.
Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
mind I had.
R
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 17:28:38
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
>> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
>> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
>> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a shit.
RicodJour wrote:
> Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
> mind I had.
You forgot to ask whether they breed with each other.
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 00:15:36
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:17:20 -0700, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jun 25, 1:31 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from...
>>
>> From http://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
>
>Where in either story does it say that the hormone in question is
>testosterone?
there you go smartass : "decreased levels of testosterone"
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 12:43:10
From:
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 25, 6:46 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> ...for Danilo Di Luca, Eddy Mazzoleni, Gilberto Simoni and Riccardo
> Ricc=F2...not enough testosterone apparently, looks like they learnt the
> Landis lesson well, or maybe too well...my guess is that the carbon
> isotope is coming their way ! They should really do it systematically,
> that would make the use of masking agents useless, a waste of time for
> all involved !
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=3Dnews/2007/jun07/jun25news&from...
Looks like Monte Zoncolon really is a ball breaker.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 06:23:56
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Jun 25, 7:47 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
>
> Imagine it's shown in a few days that they are all completely innocent, just
> like Iban Mayo one or two weeks ago! What a disaster! No publicity, no extra
> attention to the anti-doping mafia! It's so much better to leak it before
> the results are known. It might be a bit hard for the riders to be
> suspected of cheating, but who cares?
Listen, Benjo, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing is getting
old. Why shouldn't there be a wholesale nifong-slinging match?
Character assassination is entertainment too!
Keep it up - the lynch mob will be coming for you next.
The Black Hand
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 15:41:27
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com > wrote in message
news:1182777836.717939.197860@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 25, 7:47 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Imagine it's shown in a few days that they are all completely innocent,
>> just
>> like Iban Mayo one or two weeks ago! What a disaster! No publicity, no
>> extra
>> attention to the anti-doping mafia! It's so much better to leak it before
>> the results are known. It might be a bit hard for the riders to be
>> suspected of cheating, but who cares?
>
> Listen, Benjo, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing is getting
> old. Why shouldn't there be a wholesale nifong-slinging match?
> Character assassination is entertainment too!
>
> Keep it up - the lynch mob will be coming for you next.
>
> The Black Hand
Seven years ago (18 july 1999) one of us wrote:
"... riders who never use doping are very rare, and they cannot be found
among the top riders. I'm convinced the estimate of 90 % is on the rather
conservative side. That's of course the reason why there are so much
innuendo's about Armstrong right now. Riders simply don't believe that one
of them can be the best without the use of performance enhancing drugs. In
their view it might have been possible in the times of amphitamine,
cortisone, etc., but not in the times of EPO, PFC, growth hormones, etc. In
the pro cycling world everybody is assumed to be guilty, until he he is
proved to be innocent. Which is a very realistic view."
I hope he's burning with shame!
Benjo
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:39:33
From: Charles
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
>
> Seven years ago (18 july 1999) one of us wrote:
> "... riders who never use doping are very rare, and they cannot be found
> among the top riders. I'm convinced the estimate of 90 % is on the rather
> conservative side. That's of course the reason why there are so much
> innuendo's about Armstrong right now. Riders simply don't believe that one
> of them can be the best without the use of performance enhancing drugs. In
> their view it might have been possible in the times of amphitamine,
> cortisone, etc., but not in the times of EPO, PFC, growth hormones, etc.
In
> the pro cycling world everybody is assumed to be guilty, until he he is
> proved to be innocent. Which is a very realistic view."
> I hope he's burning with shame!
>
> Benjo
>
>
The problem with that is how do you prove that you are innocent? How many
times have we heard the statement "I have never failed a test" ?
I never took any performance enhancing substances while competing as a Cat2.
I cannot prove it, except by average results.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 16:24:58
From: xzzy
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Keep in mind current 'doings' are on the run into the next tdf
- racers are being more or less required to sign a "Guilty until no matter
what it takes, you are guilty" contract,
- and now Tricky Dick is after the French cyclists, meaning if lack of
testosterone = a problem, then all french racers are positive for not having
enough balls.
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in message
news:5e9v04F37jhd7U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1182777836.717939.197860@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 25, 7:47 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Imagine it's shown in a few days that they are all completely innocent,
>>> just
>>> like Iban Mayo one or two weeks ago! What a disaster! No publicity, no
>>> extra
>>> attention to the anti-doping mafia! It's so much better to leak it
>>> before
>>> the results are known. It might be a bit hard for the riders to be
>>> suspected of cheating, but who cares?
>>
>> Listen, Benjo, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing is getting
>> old. Why shouldn't there be a wholesale nifong-slinging match?
>> Character assassination is entertainment too!
>>
>> Keep it up - the lynch mob will be coming for you next.
>>
>> The Black Hand
>
> Seven years ago (18 july 1999) one of us wrote:
> "... riders who never use doping are very rare, and they cannot be found
> among the top riders. I'm convinced the estimate of 90 % is on the rather
> conservative side. That's of course the reason why there are so much
> innuendo's about Armstrong right now. Riders simply don't believe that one
> of them can be the best without the use of performance enhancing drugs. In
> their view it might have been possible in the times of amphitamine,
> cortisone, etc., but not in the times of EPO, PFC, growth hormones, etc.
> In the pro cycling world everybody is assumed to be guilty, until he he is
> proved to be innocent. Which is a very realistic view."
> I hope he's burning with shame!
>
> Benjo
>
>
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 13:47:55
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
"Keith" <nospam@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:d17v731arqsrm662r57timmec9po4pc6as@4ax.com...
> ...for Danilo Di Luca, Eddy Mazzoleni, Gilberto Simoni and Riccardo
> Riccò...not enough testosterone apparently, looks like they learnt the
> Landis lesson well, or maybe too well...my guess is that the carbon
> isotope is coming their way ! They should really do it systematically,
> that would make the use of masking agents useless, a waste of time for
> all involved !
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from=rss
Imagine it's shown in a few days that they are all completely innocent, just
like Iban Mayo one or two weeks ago! What a disaster! No publicity, no extra
attention to the anti-doping mafia! It's so much better to leak it before
the results are known. It might be a bit hard for the riders to be
suspected of cheating, but who cares?
Benjo
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 07:31:40
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:
>...for Danilo Di Luca, Eddy Mazzoleni, Gilberto Simoni and Riccardo
>Riccò...not enough testosterone apparently, looks like they learnt the
>Landis lesson well, or maybe too well...my guess is that the carbon
>isotope is coming their way ! They should really do it systematically,
>that would make the use of masking agents useless, a waste of time for
>all involved !
>
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from=rss
From http://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
----------------------------
The test results showed extremely low natural hormone values - similar
to those of children. This indicates that the riders may have used
products to lower their hormone level and thereby mask the possible
use of doping.
-----------------------------
Maybe they haven't hit puberty yet? ;-)
J. Spaceman
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 02:02:27
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
In article
<lq9v73pl19j9scd5l6gfolckrn45djimis@4ax.com >,
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org >
wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:46:17 +0200, Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >...for Danilo Di Luca, Eddy Mazzoleni, Gilberto Simoni and Riccardo
> >Riccò...not enough testosterone apparently, looks like they learnt the
> >Landis lesson well, or maybe too well...my guess is that the carbon
> >isotope is coming their way ! They should really do it systematically,
> >that would make the use of masking agents useless, a waste of time for
> >all involved !
> >
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun25news&from=rss
>
>
> From http://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
>
> ----------------------------
> The test results showed extremely low natural hormone values - similar
> to those of children. This indicates that the riders may have used
> products to lower their hormone level and thereby mask the possible
> use of doping.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> Maybe they haven't hit puberty yet? ;-)
That answers the question `Who is behind all the aliases here?'
--
Michael Press
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 13:56:18
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
> From http://www.cyclingpost.com/giro/article_004940.shtml
> ----------------------------
> The test results showed extremely low natural hormone values - similar
> to those of children. This indicates that the riders may have used
> products to lower their hormone level and thereby mask the possible
> use of doping.
> -----------------------------
Dumbass,
If you're going to quote a paragraph, why not quote the whole thing
including the final sentence: "However, decreased levels of testosterone
have been demonstrated during a study of riders in the 1999 Vuelta a
España published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine (in 2001)."
Thats why testosterone patches are popular.
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