| |
Main
Date: 24 Jul 2007 18:20:11
From: MrBob
Subject: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
When can we expect the results from Vino's mountain stage win?
If these turn up negative, then what? From what I remember about basic
bio, red blood cells take weeks to months to die.
Any comments / press articles about the science behind the results here?
|
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 22:23:49
From:
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Jul 26, 1:17 am, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
> > Good idea, but the WADA prevents independent labs from doing the
> > homologous blood doping test. That test is proprietary and its
> > protocols and procedures are secret.
>
> You aren't serious, are you?
I try not to be, particularly about cycling which is, after all, just
entertainment -- but in this case, you can look it up yourself. The
exact test procedures for the homologous blood doping test have never
been released because the WADA doesn't want the athletes to know
exactly which arrays of antibodies are being compared -- they think
that knowledge, sort of like the knowledge of exactly what my
President considers to be torture, emboldens the
enemy^H^H^H^H^Hathletes. That's why the test has never been verified,
nor could it be performed, by any independent lab.
We went through all of this a couple of years ago when Hamilton got
popped, and again when the arbitration decision came down.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 17:56:57
From: kaiser
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Jul 25, 1:53 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 25, 1:53 am, MrBob <n...@none.none> wrote:
I remember seeing photos of the bags. Several different sizes,
including small bags and full units.
>
> > From the Hamilton case, I remember a lifespan of 120 days for a red
> > blood cell. I don't know if it's more of a half-life, or a FIFO process.
>
> There's some variation in the lifespan but the important thing to keep
> in mind is that you're not transfusing blood cells that are all the
> same age. Some (roughly, 1/120) are one day old and some are 119 days
> old. In the Hamilton case, it was charged that he was consistently
> mini-dosing with less than full units in order to get the observed
> proportions of mixed blood. That's one of the reasons why it was
> interesting to see whether the blood bags in the Puerto case were mini
> (i.e., kid-sized) bags or full-sized units. It also suggests that in
> the Hamilton case it couldn't have been a one-time only mix-up with
> Santiago Perez.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:19:31
From:
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Jul 25, 3:53 pm, Robert McMillen <robert.mcmil...@ssrc.msstate.edu >
wrote:
> Although many other doping allegations have some ambiguities, Vino's
> case should be easy. If he's innocent, call a press conference and
> invite an independent lab to analyze his blood. If he had an homologous
> blood transfusion - the evidence would still be there. If his test was
> botched or sabotaged, the independent lab would clear him. He can
> readily clear his name if he is innocent, and if he chooses not to do so
> he is implicitly admitting guilt.
Good idea, but the WADA prevents independent labs from doing the
homologous blood doping test. That test is proprietary and its
protocols and procedures are secret.
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:17:00
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
in message <1185383971.969577.74160@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com (' rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com') wrote:
> On Jul 25, 3:53 pm, Robert McMillen <robert.mcmil...@ssrc.msstate.edu>
> wrote:
>> Although many other doping allegations have some ambiguities, Vino's
>> case should be easy. If he's innocent, call a press conference and
>> invite an independent lab to analyze his blood. If he had an homologous
>> blood transfusion - the evidence would still be there. If his test was
>> botched or sabotaged, the independent lab would clear him. He can
>> readily clear his name if he is innocent, and if he chooses not to do so
>> he is implicitly admitting guilt.
>
> Good idea, but the WADA prevents independent labs from doing the
> homologous blood doping test. That test is proprietary and its
> protocols and procedures are secret.
You aren't serious, are you?
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:02:16
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
<rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185383971.969577.74160@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 25, 3:53 pm, Robert McMillen <robert.mcmil...@ssrc.msstate.edu>
> wrote:
>> Although many other doping allegations have some ambiguities, Vino's
>> case should be easy. If he's innocent, call a press conference and
>> invite an independent lab to analyze his blood. If he had an homologous
>> blood transfusion - the evidence would still be there. If his test was
>> botched or sabotaged, the independent lab would clear him. He can
>> readily clear his name if he is innocent, and if he chooses not to do so
>> he is implicitly admitting guilt.
>
> Good idea, but the WADA prevents independent labs from doing the
> homologous blood doping test. That test is proprietary and its
> protocols and procedures are secret.
Not to be too interested in your knowledge of this but - what exactly is it
that you think hasn't been known about blood that you couldn't read in the
latested update of Willams Hematology?
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 09:03:40
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:02:16 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
><rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1185383971.969577.74160@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 25, 3:53 pm, Robert McMillen <robert.mcmil...@ssrc.msstate.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> Although many other doping allegations have some ambiguities, Vino's
>>> case should be easy. If he's innocent, call a press conference and
>>> invite an independent lab to analyze his blood. If he had an homologous
>>> blood transfusion - the evidence would still be there. If his test was
>>> botched or sabotaged, the independent lab would clear him. He can
>>> readily clear his name if he is innocent, and if he chooses not to do so
>>> he is implicitly admitting guilt.
>>
>> Good idea, but the WADA prevents independent labs from doing the
>> homologous blood doping test. That test is proprietary and its
>> protocols and procedures are secret.
>
>Not to be too interested in your knowledge of this but - what exactly is it
>that you think hasn't been known about blood that you couldn't read in the
>latested update of Willams Hematology?
He just said, the procedures that WADA uses.
Ron
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 01:53:53
From:
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Jul 25, 1:53 am, MrBob <n...@none.none > wrote:
> From the Hamilton case, I remember a lifespan of 120 days for a red
> blood cell. I don't know if it's more of a half-life, or a FIFO process.
There's some variation in the lifespan but the important thing to keep
in mind is that you're not transfusing blood cells that are all the
same age. Some (roughly, 1/120) are one day old and some are 119 days
old. In the Hamilton case, it was charged that he was consistently
mini-dosing with less than full units in order to get the observed
proportions of mixed blood. That's one of the reasons why it was
interesting to see whether the blood bags in the Puerto case were mini
(i.e., kid-sized) bags or full-sized units. It also suggests that in
the Hamilton case it couldn't have been a one-time only mix-up with
Santiago Perez.
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 08:53:58
From: Robert McMillen
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
Although many other doping allegations have some ambiguities, Vino's
case should be easy. If he's innocent, call a press conference and
invite an independent lab to analyze his blood. If he had an homologous
blood transfusion - the evidence would still be there. If his test was
botched or sabotaged, the independent lab would clear him. He can
readily clear his name if he is innocent, and if he chooses not to do so
he is implicitly admitting guilt.
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 25, 1:53 am, MrBob <n...@none.none> wrote:
>
>> From the Hamilton case, I remember a lifespan of 120 days for a red
>> blood cell. I don't know if it's more of a half-life, or a FIFO process.
>
> There's some variation in the lifespan but the important thing to keep
> in mind is that you're not transfusing blood cells that are all the
> same age. Some (roughly, 1/120) are one day old and some are 119 days
> old. In the Hamilton case, it was charged that he was consistently
> mini-dosing with less than full units in order to get the observed
> proportions of mixed blood. That's one of the reasons why it was
> interesting to see whether the blood bags in the Puerto case were mini
> (i.e., kid-sized) bags or full-sized units. It also suggests that in
> the Hamilton case it couldn't have been a one-time only mix-up with
> Santiago Perez.
>
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 18:56:59
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On Jul 24, 4:53 pm, MrBob <n...@none.none > wrote:
> Given that this is a 30 something hour
> gruntfest, it's probably some other muscle death.
I heard the wrong saddle can affect boners. Then you rub on penis
cream to cure it, and crap!!!!!.... another T/E positive!
This is not a call for Bill Asher to talk about male porn stars.
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:36:52
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
"SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwhite@ti.com > wrote in message
news:1185328619.749437.244970@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 4:53 pm, MrBob <n...@none.none> wrote:
>
>> Given that this is a 30 something hour
>> gruntfest, it's probably some other muscle death.
>
> I heard the wrong saddle can affect boners. Then you rub on penis
> cream to cure it, and crap!!!!!.... another T/E positive!
>
> This is not a call for Bill Asher to talk about male porn stars.
While breathing heavily.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 01:05:50
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
MrBob <none@none.none > writes:
> When can we expect the results from Vino's mountain stage win?
>
> If these turn up negative, then what? From what I remember about basic
> bio, red blood cells take weeks to months to die.
>
> Any comments / press articles about the science behind the results here?
Good question
Could you please keep us informed if you see/hear anything?
--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
|
| | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 19:53:44
From: MrBob
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
In article <87vec92yi9.fsf@azurservers.com >,
Davey Crockett <d4Qaveycrockett@azurservers.com > wrote:
> MrBob <none@none.none> writes:
>
> > When can we expect the results from Vino's mountain stage win?
> >
> > If these turn up negative, then what? From what I remember about basic
> > bio, red blood cells take weeks to months to die.
> >
> > Any comments / press articles about the science behind the results here?
>
> Good question
>
> Could you please keep us informed if you see/hear anything?
From the Hamilton case, I remember a lifespan of 120 days for a red
blood cell. I don't know if it's more of a half-life, or a FIFO process.
Again, based on vague memories from the Hamilton case, the test looks
for sub-types of blood types. I don't know if an injury or medical
product related to crashing could trigger a false positive.
Here's an interesting example - riders have tested positive for heart
attacks after racing the Furnace Creek 508. A positive result for the
test for an enzyme / protein produced by cardiac tissue death is
triggered by something else. Given that this is a 30 something hour
gruntfest, it's probably some other muscle death.
It's too bad that the rest of the team was not automatically tested - if
exactly one more positive result appeared it would pretty much eliminate
speculation.
|
| | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 18:35:23
From: Mark
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
MrBob wrote:
>
> It's too bad that the rest of the team was not automatically tested - if
> exactly one more positive result appeared it would pretty much eliminate
> speculation.
Why? Non-cyclists can't donate blood?
Mark J.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 15:40:47
From: raoul patato valdez
Subject: Re: How long will a positive homologous test subject remain positive?
|
On 24 juil, 15:20, MrBob <n...@none.none > wrote:
> When can we expect the results from Vino's mountain stage win?
Prudhomme said they were currently being analyzed in Chatenay, should
be a couple of days...
> If these turn up negative, then what?
We'll know soon enough
> From what I remember about basic
> bio, red blood cells take weeks to months to die.
>
> Any comments / press articles about the science behind the results here?
|
|
