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Main
Date: 26 Jun 2007 11:07:41
From: Dwayne
Subject: Jaja does Ironman
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21st place in Swiss Ironman: http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 10:12:21
From: rick-paulos@uiowa.edu
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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> > I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene > distances as you get older. Running is a young persons sport, or at > least for those with young joints. RAAM should be THE event for ex- > hippies gone clean. All the hallucinations you can handle, no drugs > involved, and legal too. > Bill C Check out the Ultra Marathon Running Association too. They are quite active with a sizeable monthly newsletter. Anyhow, it's very rare to see any one under 30 at ultra running events. The median age is 50 to 55. My take on the Ultra sports is they are for those who have killed off their nerve endings and aren't aware of the pain. Young people are too sensitive and can't handle it. The other factor is having the patience to go sloooooooow.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 07:24:41
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 27, 9:37 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote: > > It's the weight bearing stress that's important: > > >http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/osteoporosis/HQ00643 > > > Movements to avoid > > Mild bone deterioration without osteoporosis shouldn't interfere with > > recreation. In fact, activities such as golf and bowling may be > > beneficial. But if you have osteoporosis, don't do the following types > > of exercises: > > > High-impact exercises, such as jumping, running or jogging. These > > activities increase compression in your spine and lower extremities > > and can lead to fractures in weakened bones. Avoid jerky, rapid > > movements in general. Try to move in a slow and controlled manner. > > http://www.csp.org.uk/director/physiotherapyexplained/features/osteop.... > cfm > > > > > > > Managing osteoporosis > > If you suffer from osteoporosis, it is important to exercise in order > > to reduce the risks of falls and fractures. Exercise can also assist > > in improving postural deformity. > > Continue with low impact activities, for example brisk walking and low > > impact aerobics > > Carry out high intensity strength training > > Carry out specific balance training exercises. Tai Chi is a good > > balance exercise, which could be incorporated into a falls prevention > > programme > > Look out for falls classes in your local area > > Avoid exercises that involve rotation and flexion such as bending down > > to touch your toes and twisting activities > > Contact your local chartered physiotherapist to discuss suitable > > exercises. They may be able to provide you with a demonstration to > > ensure you carry out the exercises correctly. > > > Bill C > > ----------- > I can only speak for myself, but running more than twice a week is bad, but > running at least once a week is good. This assumes you have good shoes. A > lot people use tennis shoes or the like, which is bad. But you'd be amazed > at how the new shoes reduce impact, that is what I noticed. Like most > things in life, balance is usually best, for the over all feeling of well > being. If I do just pure cycling, with a mix of intervals, and endurance, > eventually I develop strange aches and pains in my body, and it seems a good > run will straighten those out. And besides, I gotta get that high, at least > once a weak.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - That's cool. I'd still love to run occasionally and plan to when I can do Cross. I'll still suck and with my knees it's a bad idea, but it does give you something that other activities don't. It took a while to dig this out of faulty wteware, but it's what I was thinking of with the older athletes doing Ironman stuff: http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=389&topcategory= The training volume it seems to take to do a marathon, and especially an Ironman, is a huge amount of pounding and I'd doubt that any of us here don't at least have tendonitis issues at least. Bill C Bill C
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 04:17:52
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 27, 7:01 am, bar <barbari...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 27, 6:40 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > If you manage it properly, it's good for you. > > > > > Ever hear of osteoporosis? > > > Hey dumbass > > > Ever hear of non, or low impact weight bearing activities? > > > Bill C > > > ---------- > > I don't get your point. low impact means eventually your bones will lose > > their density, not a good thing. Like old people, they fall down and break > > a hip or whatever. The problem with space travel, is too much bone loss, > > due to the lack of gravity. He is correct, running is good for the bones, > > cycling is bad for the bones. You only have to run once a week to get your > > body to take of those bones. > > I think i agree with most of what Calli says. Plus running (that is, > during a good run) gets you into this ethereal state of mind that you > can never ever get with cycling (well maybe with pot belge and high > altitude you can get close). It's the weight bearing stress that's important: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/osteoporosis/HQ00643 Movements to avoid Mild bone deterioration without osteoporosis shouldn't interfere with recreation. In fact, activities such as golf and bowling may be beneficial. But if you have osteoporosis, don't do the following types of exercises: High-impact exercises, such as jumping, running or jogging. These activities increase compression in your spine and lower extremities and can lead to fractures in weakened bones. Avoid jerky, rapid movements in general. Try to move in a slow and controlled manner. http://www.csp.org.uk/director/physiotherapyexplained/features/osteoporosis.cfm Managing osteoporosis If you suffer from osteoporosis, it is important to exercise in order to reduce the risks of falls and fractures. Exercise can also assist in improving postural deformity. Continue with low impact activities, for example brisk walking and low impact aerobics Carry out high intensity strength training Carry out specific balance training exercises. Tai Chi is a good balance exercise, which could be incorporated into a falls prevention programme Look out for falls classes in your local area Avoid exercises that involve rotation and flexion such as bending down to touch your toes and twisting activities Contact your local chartered physiotherapist to discuss suitable exercises. They may be able to provide you with a demonstration to ensure you carry out the exercises correctly. Bill C
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 11:22:36
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Bill C wrote: > On Jun 27, 7:01 am, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jun 27, 6:40 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>>>> If you manage it properly, it's good for you. >>>>> Ever hear of osteoporosis? >>>> Hey dumbass >>>> Ever hear of non, or low impact weight bearing activities? >>>> Bill C >>> ---------- >>> I don't get your point. low impact means eventually your bones will lose >>> their density, not a good thing. Like old people, they fall down and break >>> a hip or whatever. The problem with space travel, is too much bone loss, >>> due to the lack of gravity. He is correct, running is good for the bones, >>> cycling is bad for the bones. You only have to run once a week to get your >>> body to take of those bones. >> I think i agree with most of what Calli says. Plus running (that is, >> during a good run) gets you into this ethereal state of mind that you >> can never ever get with cycling (well maybe with pot belge and high >> altitude you can get close). > > It's the weight bearing stress that's important: > > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/osteoporosis/HQ00643 > > Movements to avoid > Mild bone deterioration without osteoporosis shouldn't interfere with > recreation. In fact, activities such as golf and bowling may be > beneficial. But if you have osteoporosis, don't do the following types > of exercises: Or just choose the Tour de France breakfast: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132 That's pure calcium in the syringe on the right. Or maybe not. Greg -- http://ticketmastersucks.org
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:37:03
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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> > It's the weight bearing stress that's important: > > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/osteoporosis/HQ00643 > > Movements to avoid > Mild bone deterioration without osteoporosis shouldn't interfere with > recreation. In fact, activities such as golf and bowling may be > beneficial. But if you have osteoporosis, don't do the following types > of exercises: > > High-impact exercises, such as jumping, running or jogging. These > activities increase compression in your spine and lower extremities > and can lead to fractures in weakened bones. Avoid jerky, rapid > movements in general. Try to move in a slow and controlled manner. > > http://www.csp.org.uk/director/physiotherapyexplained/features/osteoporosis. cfm > > Managing osteoporosis > If you suffer from osteoporosis, it is important to exercise in order > to reduce the risks of falls and fractures. Exercise can also assist > in improving postural deformity. > Continue with low impact activities, for example brisk walking and low > impact aerobics > Carry out high intensity strength training > Carry out specific balance training exercises. Tai Chi is a good > balance exercise, which could be incorporated into a falls prevention > programme > Look out for falls classes in your local area > Avoid exercises that involve rotation and flexion such as bending down > to touch your toes and twisting activities > Contact your local chartered physiotherapist to discuss suitable > exercises. They may be able to provide you with a demonstration to > ensure you carry out the exercises correctly. > > Bill C ----------- I can only speak for myself, but running more than twice a week is bad, but running at least once a week is good. This assumes you have good shoes. A lot people use tennis shoes or the like, which is bad. But you'd be amazed at how the new shoes reduce impact, that is what I noticed. Like most things in life, balance is usually best, for the over all feeling of well being. If I do just pure cycling, with a mix of intervals, and endurance, eventually I develop strange aches and pains in my body, and it seems a good run will straighten those out. And besides, I gotta get that high, at least once a weak.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 11:01:50
From: bar
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 27, 6:40 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote: > > > If you manage it properly, it's good for you. > > > > Ever hear of osteoporosis? > > Hey dumbass > > Ever hear of non, or low impact weight bearing activities? > > Bill C > > ---------- > I don't get your point. low impact means eventually your bones will lose > their density, not a good thing. Like old people, they fall down and break > a hip or whatever. The problem with space travel, is too much bone loss, > due to the lack of gravity. He is correct, running is good for the bones, > cycling is bad for the bones. You only have to run once a week to get your > body to take of those bones. I think i agree with most of what Calli says. Plus running (that is, during a good run) gets you into this ethereal state of mind that you can never ever get with cycling (well maybe with pot belge and high altitude you can get close).
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 03:13:36
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 27, 12:22 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 26, 6:49 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 8:56 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote: > > > > In article <1182881261.765195.182...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Dwayne <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n > > > > It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. > > > > Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, > > > > -- > > > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/ > > > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics > > > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos > > > I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene > > distances as you get older. > > Dumbass - > > If you manage it properly, it's good for you. > > Ever hear of osteoporosis? > > thanks, > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Hey dumbass Ever hear of non, or low impact weight bearing activities? Bill C
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 10:40:11
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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> > If you manage it properly, it's good for you. > > > > Ever hear of osteoporosis? > Hey dumbass > Ever hear of non, or low impact weight bearing activities? > Bill C ---------- I don't get your point. low impact means eventually your bones will lose their density, not a good thing. Like old people, they fall down and break a hip or whatever. The problem with space travel, is too much bone loss, due to the lack of gravity. He is correct, running is good for the bones, cycling is bad for the bones. You only have to run once a week to get your body to take of those bones.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 08:54:58
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Dwayne <dwayne_dillhole@hotmail.com > writes: > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: > > http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n > Was there any Testing? -- Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 21:22:48
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 26, 6:49 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote: > On Jun 26, 8:56 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote: > > > In article <1182881261.765195.182...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > Dwayne <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n > > > It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. > > > Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, > > > -- > > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/ > > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics > > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos > > I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene > distances as you get older. Dumbass - If you manage it properly, it's good for you. Ever hear of osteoporosis? thanks, K. Gringioni.
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 09:28:00
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Kurgan Gringioni <kgringioni@hotmail.com > writes: > On Jun 26, 6:49 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote: >> On Jun 26, 8:56 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote: >> >> > In article <1182881261.765195.182...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> >> > Dwayne <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: >> >> > >http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n >> >> > It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. >> >> > Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, >> >> > -- >> > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/ >> > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics >> > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos >> >> I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene >> distances as you get older. > > > > Dumbass - > > > If you manage it properly, it's good for you. > > Ever hear of osteoporosis? > > > thanks, > > K. Gringioni. Right you are You have to stress the bones or they melt away when you get my age, and swallow lots of alendronic acid So stay active Ride lots - piccy taken 3 weeks ago http://azurservers.com/rbr/jun02.jpg and turning the clock back 50++ years, here's Davey as a Member of the UK Schools International Cross Country squad - middle, back row - quality is poor because it was scanned from an old newspaper more than half a century old http://azurservers.com/rbr/1951UKCC.jpg and the payoff: [cite] From: "Doctor Pamela Mark" <pamela.mark@_____.com > Subject: Bone density I'm sure that you had given up on me getting your reports to you. I had to wait for my "technical services" to finish school and bring the scanner back home again. As you will see, the clinic changed the machine since your last BMD. Hence, the reports cannot be compared. It would appear that you are no longer osteoporotic. There are a few ways of looking at this. One is that the measurements are variable (even with using the same machine) and that you may still have osteoporosis. Another is that you have responded very well to the alendronate/Fosamax and your bone density has improved. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I suggest that you stay on the alendronate for now and that we repeat your BMD in a year's time or when you next visit Toronto. I hope that this is satisfactory to you. Yours truly, Pam [/cite] -- Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 20:14:39
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:28:00 +0200, Davey Crockett <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com > wrote: [---] >Ride lots - piccy taken 3 weeks ago >http://azurservers.com/rbr/jun02.jpg Where was that taken - Toulon?
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 20:35:29
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr > writes: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:28:00 +0200, Davey Crockett > <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com> wrote: > > [---] > >>Ride lots - piccy taken 3 weeks ago >>http://azurservers.com/rbr/jun02.jpg > > Where was that taken - Toulon? Ah, now I see why you asked The van has an 83 (Var) plaque, but must have just been another firkin tourist ;) ;) -- Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 21:31:58
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:35:29 +0200, Davey Crockett <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com > wrote: >> Where was that taken - Toulon? > >Ah, now I see why you asked > >The van has an 83 (Var) plaque, but must have just been another firkin >tourist ;) ;) Exactly ! (nice shot, btw)
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 20:25:42
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr > writes: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:28:00 +0200, Davey Crockett > <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com> wrote: > > [---] > >>Ride lots - piccy taken 3 weeks ago >>http://azurservers.com/rbr/jun02.jpg > > Where was that taken - Toulon? Place General de Gaulle, Antibes, 06 -- Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 18:49:51
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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On Jun 26, 8:56 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote: > In article <1182881261.765195.182...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > Dwayne <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: > > >http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n > > It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. > > Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, > > -- > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/ > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene distances as you get older. Running is a young persons sport, or at least for those with young joints. RAAM should be THE event for ex- hippies gone clean. All the hallucinations you can handle, no drugs involved, and legal too. Bill C
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Date: 28 Jun 2007 17:20:06
From: Tony S.
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message news:1182908991.352021.33600@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 26, 8:56 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote: >> In article <1182881261.765195.182...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> >> Dwayne <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: >> >> >http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n >> >> It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. >> >> Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, >> >> -- >> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/ >> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics >> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos > > I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene > distances as you get older. Running is a young persons sport, or at > least for those with young joints. RAAM should be THE event for ex- > hippies gone clean. All the hallucinations you can handle, no drugs > involved, and legal too. > Bill C As more a runner than a biker the last few years, I'd have to agree in one sense - running is much more fun when you're younger when you can really hammer without worrying what you will tweak: injuries when you're young mostly heal quickly. But after several years of mostly biking and only running occasionally, I got interested in running again when my friends invited me to join them at some Orienteering meets. In my late 30's I was one who thought my running days were well behind me, with stiff joints, hip problems, and generally what I considered very negative feedback my body was sending me after runs. But I always loved trail running since age 15, and before that I'd thrived as a soccer midfielder with a decent sprint that gave me a feeling of power throughout my youth. After pushing myself on the orienteering circuit for several years, I developed some running injuries that I didn't know how to deal with at the time (early 1980s), and stopped running regularly, though never totally. Biking was also a passion of mine all my life, and I trained with my friends who raced sometimes, though what I considered to be the unfairness of race tactics - e.g.. the strongest rider doesn't always win - squashed any interested I had in bike racing. I now appreciate race tactics much more, but I still prefer watching the mountain stages or time trials far more than the tactical or sprint stages. (I think allowing drafting in triathlons, as they did in the last Olympics, ruins that sport, and penalizes the best bike riders). When I got into Orienteering again after a 20 year layoff, I found my bike training crossed over pretty well, but It was just too hard on my joints at the time, and it would take more than a week to recover from meets. After a couple of years of o-meets here and there, I decided that I needed some other running outlet, and I got interested in trail ultras. So what drew me to want to run 'obscene distances'? That's a really good question that I have no easy answer for, but I've never done more than a 50 miler, and doubt I ever will, so that's not as obscene as some distances. I guess the main reasons I tried an ultra were because I've always loved trail running, and people would always ask me if I ran a marathon before when I told them I was a runner and a biker. Since I always hating road running, a road marathon was never a remote goal of mine. So, yea there was a bragging rights reason in a way, but I also wanted to see how I stood up to the challenge. Answer: not too well. That didn't stop me from running a few more, improving some, but suffering horribly the last 3-4 hours of the race, and taking many months to fully recover. For now I've moved on to shorter trail races, and am running much more than biking these days. I went from running 2 days a week 3 years ago, to running about 6 days a week now, and I've found that while running isn't always pleasant, the body does adapt and that age isn't as limiting as I once thought it was. The feedback you get from your body in running is direct and substantial, and if you try to learn from that, it can lead you to correct imbalance problems and to work on your health in ways that others sports don't require, and that's a good thing. In short, being running fit makes you feel younger and it gives you a kind of physical freedom and robustness that other sports don't, at least for me. The above being said, when you push your limits in running it can be a challenge to avoid injuries and it makes you more aware of your mortality and limitations than biking does for example. I strongly believe that a cross-training lifestyle is the best for most people, and though I've experimented with somewhat higher running mileage this year, I plan to settle on a more balanced approach in the future. A note to those who think they don't like to run: try trails. As for jaja in the Ironman -- I just hope it eventually causes Lance to try it -- that's something many people wanted to see for a long time. Unlikely that he would ever do it, but he's still young enough to give it a run. No, I'm not particularly a Lance fan, but it would be worth watching him fry in the lava fields ;) -Tony
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 02:56:57
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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> I don't get the concept of wanting to increase your running to obscene > distances as you get older. Running is a young persons sport, or at > least for those with young joints. RAAM should be THE event for ex- > hippies gone clean. All the hallucinations you can handle, no drugs > involved, and legal too. > Bill C ------------ I find myself leaving the bike inside, and taking a 2 hour run more and more. Two reasons, shoe technology has made it possible, and you get a bigger buzz out of it. I tried running years ago, and always ended up getting hurt, but no more, because of the shoes. The shoes make all of the difference in the world, sometimes I run just for how they feel. I use to think marathons were hard, now they're easy. I'm not going faster, or breaking any records, but I can have a normal day after the event, and not wonder like if I screwed myself up permanently, like years ago on bad shoes. It also helps if you have a nice place to run. There's a multi-use path near where I live, and if you don't have to smell auto exhaust it really enhances the experience. But it's the "shoes", if you aren't willing to invest in some good ones, forget it, because it'll just be the torture most people think it is. And unlike bike shoes, they have shoes for every type of foot, and it's quite technical, so you have to get the right kind. I have high arches, and I was amazed they had a model for that one. So do some research before you buy, it makes all the difference. My question on Jaja is, was he clean?
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 12:38:37
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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Callistus Valerius wrote: > > My question on Jaja is, was he clean? > > They don't administer Drug Tests to Triathletes. Only IQ Tests. Bill
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 00:56:14
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Jaja does Ironman
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In article <1182881261.765195.182530@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >, Dwayne <dwayne_dillhole@hotmail.com > wrote: > 21st place in Swiss Ironman: > > http://tinyurl.com/2fyq7n It's so sad when a once-great athlete succumbs to triathlism. Oh well, at least it's not RAAM, -- Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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