| |
Main
Date: 26 Mar 2007 02:29:34
From: benjo maso
Subject: Jef D'Hont
|
Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound
got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him -
and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what
ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For
instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the
only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but
D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently
the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that
Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we
all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously,
really deserved to win.
Benjo
|
|
| |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 07:26:27
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 27, 8:59 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl > wrote:
> "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote innews:1174999952.931593.169970@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > On 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote:
>
> >> Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
> >> EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
> >> giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
> >> measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
> >> hematocrit actually floated around 50.
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > you're forgetting two things.
>
> > i) a gin of error is built into the system
>
> > ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
> > leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.
>
> > the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
> > before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
> > should be treated as a doping case or not.
>
> You mean Pantani didn't use EPO?
dumbass,
you said pantani might be "innocent", but that implies he was guilty.
he was never found guilty of doping.
if he had been mentally tougher he could've sat out two weeks and
returned to race the tour and possibly beat armstrong.
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| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:45:55
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175005587.057220.214480@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> if he (Pantani) had been mentally tougher he could've sat out two weeks
> and
> returned to race the tour and possibly beat armstrong.
And therein lies the rub. We lost Pantani not because of drugs or accidents
but because he wasn't mentally strong enough to stand the see-saw between
public hero and public zero and then back again. It was public adoration
followed by public condemnation and back that really killed him.
|
| |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 07:15:55
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 27, 9:58 am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid > wrote:
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping
> > his hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program
> > implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
>
> He was microdosing EPO with stored Operation Puerto blood bags?
dumbass,
i like the theory that floyd's T:E ratio came about from blood bags
which had been filled before the allowable T:E ratio had been lowered.
|
| |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 05:52:32
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl > wrote:
>
> Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
> EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
> giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
> measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
> hematocrit actually floated around 50.
dumbass,
you're forgetting two things.
i) a gin of error is built into the system
ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.
the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
should be treated as a doping case or not.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:42:30
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1174999952.931593.169970@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
>> EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
>> giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
>> measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
>> hematocrit actually floated around 50.
>
> dumbass,
>
> you're forgetting two things.
>
> i) a gin of error is built into the system
>
> ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
> leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.
>
> the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
> before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
> should be treated as a doping case or not.
Wrong. As we've seen the blood doping tests are NOT reliable despite the
iron clad guarantee of Dr. Pound. And microdosing of EPO cannot be detected
if done properly. By far the best method is to simply set the limit at 50%
with some exceptions up to 54% with the SAME penalty of two weeks off if you
go over the limit. If it's understood that going over that limit CAN be
perfectly normal or a error in measurement it isn't career threatening
unless it happens very often.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 12:59:16
From: Jonathan v.d. Sluis
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in
news:1174999952.931593.169970@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> On 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
>> EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
>> giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
>> measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
>> hematocrit actually floated around 50.
>
> dumbass,
>
> you're forgetting two things.
>
> i) a gin of error is built into the system
>
> ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
> leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.
>
> the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
> before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
> should be treated as a doping case or not.
>
>
>
You mean Pantani didn't use EPO?
|
| |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 04:09:08
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
In article <56oifbF2a28kiU1@mid.individual.net >,
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound
> got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him -
> and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what
> ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For
> instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the
> only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but
> D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently
> the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that
> Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we
> all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
> willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously,
> really deserved to win.
Nobody deserves to win.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:47:40
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-FB9F82.21085926032007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Nobody deserves to win.
Indeed! But there's a lot of guys deserve to lose. Take Frank Vandenbrouke
"before". Hopefully the new and improved Frank Vandenbrouke will win on his
own merits.
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| |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 14:37:58
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 26, 1:07 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote in messagenews:Xns98FFC7B6764A8jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
>
> > I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his
> > hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program implied
> > this is typical of microdosing EPO.
>
> It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays
> between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and
> unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy
> it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
Okay, so that tells us everything was kosher for the
people who finished the Giro behind you, but we still
don't know whether the riders who finished the Giro
_ahead_ of you were going hard enough to expect that
their hematocrit should have decreased.
It's these subtle points that make the difference
between science and guesswork, you know.
Ben
|
| | |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 22:10:48
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1174945078.056553.162020@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 26, 1:07 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote in
>> messagenews:Xns98FFC7B6764A8jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
>>
>> > I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping
>> > his
>> > hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program
>> > implied
>> > this is typical of microdosing EPO.
>>
>> It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit
>> stays
>> between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and
>> unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd
>> buy
>> it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the
>> unusual.
>
> Okay, so that tells us everything was kosher for the
> people who finished the Giro behind you, but we still
> don't know whether the riders who finished the Giro
> _ahead_ of you were going hard enough to expect that
> their hematocrit should have decreased.
>
> It's these subtle points that make the difference
> between science and guesswork, you know.
As I recall, Basso only went all out on one stage of the Giro and pretty
much controlled the rest of the stages like Lance used to do.
If you are exhausting yourself every day you can expect to see a medical
result, but even the "new and improved" Giro still runs pianissimo most of
the time.
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| |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 13:46:18
From: gym.gravity
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 26, 4:07 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays
> between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else...
<snicker > <snicker>
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 17:36:12
From: Jonathan v.d. Sluis
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in
news:56oifbF2a28kiU1@mid.individual.net:
> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
> Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody
> conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis,
> etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about
> his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel
> refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the
> exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once
> Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister
> 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was
> suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I
> think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly
> that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his
> health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
>
> Benjo
>
>
I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his
hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program implied
this is typical of microdosing EPO.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:58:50
From: Robert Chung
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping
> his hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program
> implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.
He was microdosing EPO with stored Operation Puerto blood bags?
|
| | |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 20:07:40
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl > wrote in message
news:Xns98FFC7B6764A8jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in
> news:56oifbF2a28kiU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
>> Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody
>> conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis,
>> etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about
>> his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel
>> refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the
>> exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once
>> Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister
>> 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was
>> suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
>> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I
>> think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly
>> that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his
>> health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
>
> I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his
> hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program implied
> this is typical of microdosing EPO.
It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays
between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and
unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd buy
it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the unusual.
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 02:17:26
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in message
news:gKVNh.16673$tD2.14079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl> wrote in message
> news:Xns98FFC7B6764A8jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
>> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in
>> news:56oifbF2a28kiU1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
>>> Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody
>>> conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis,
>>> etc.). The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about
>>> his Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel
>>> refused to take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the
>>> exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once
>>> Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister
>>> 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was
>>> suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
>>> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I
>>> think we all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly
>>> that he was willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his
>>> health simultaneously, really deserved to win.
>>
>> I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping his
>> hematocrit at a constant level was rather rekable. The program implied
>> this is typical of microdosing EPO.
>
> It is also typical of not going to the absolute limit. My hematocrit stays
> between 48 and 49 percent pretty evenly regardless of anything else and
> unless I'm microdosing on EPO despite my lack of even knowing where I'd
> buy it I'd say that a steady hematocrit is the normal case and not the
> unusual.
Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By contrast
Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm not mistaken). As
Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of microdosing EPO.
Benjo
|
| | | | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 02:25:32
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in message
news:56r64iF2a9833U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
> percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By contrast
> Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm not mistaken).
> As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of microdosing EPO.
This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective hormone.
The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities and even
"microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body produces.
And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can
measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even that has
a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 11:10:03
From: Jonathan v.d. Sluis
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in
news:wg%Nh.18087$Jl.2849@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:56r64iF2a9833U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
>> percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By
>> contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm
>> not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of
>> microdosing EPO.
>
> This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective
> hormone. The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities
> and even "microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body
> produces.
>
> And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can
> measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even
> that has a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.
>
>
I'm just constantly thinking about Pantani in 1999. His hematocrit was,
as I recall, 52? So without dreaming, that could represent any value
between 50 and 54, making a legal value a distinct possibility.
Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.
But that wasn't all: the expectancy was that Pantani's hematocrit should
have dropped, not raised, and not stayed the same. To me, that makes
Basso's values suspect, because they seem more or less the same (again
while desperately avoiding any dreams). That would be following the logic
I read here earlier.
I've often seen it before, if you start applying modern excuse methods to
sure dopers of the past you might come to surprising conclusions. Perhaps
Pantani was innocent. Or perhaps Basso's values are suspect. In the end,
the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO and
who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences what
I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or anyone else.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:38:36
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl > wrote in message
news:Xns99008617B2D9jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
> news:wg%Nh.18087$Jl.2849@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
>> news:56r64iF2a9833U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
>>> percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By
>>> contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm
>>> not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of
>>> microdosing EPO.
>>
>> This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective
>> hormone. The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities
>> and even "microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body
>> produces.
>>
>> And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can
>> measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even
>> that has a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.
>
> In the end,
> the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO and
> who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
> invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences what
> I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or anyone else.
I think you're creeping up on the truth Jon. All of the screaming and second
hand guessing is almost always done from a position of ignorance of the
tests themselves.
All of the usual methods of measuring hematocrit are more than accurate
enough for a medical diagnosis. But they aren't accurate enough to use as a
hair trigger guilt/non-guilt verdict.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:45:15
From: Jonathan v.d. Sluis
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in
news:0UaOh.15649$PL.13758@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl> wrote in message
> news:Xns99008617B2D9jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
...
>> In the end,
>> the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO
>> and who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
>> invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences
>> what I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or
>> anyone else.
>
> I think you're creeping up on the truth Jon. All of the screaming and
> second hand guessing is almost always done from a position of
> ignorance of the tests themselves.
>
> All of the usual methods of measuring hematocrit are more than
> accurate enough for a medical diagnosis. But they aren't accurate
> enough to use as a hair trigger guilt/non-guilt verdict.
Actually, I was referring to you, Tom.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 21:10:46
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl > wrote in message
news:Xns9901C91F1F890jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
> news:0UaOh.15649$PL.13758@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl> wrote in message
>> news:Xns99008617B2D9jonathandavid@82.197.196.35...
> ...
>>> In the end,
>>> the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO
>>> and who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
>>> invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences
>>> what I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or
>>> anyone else.
>>
>> I think you're creeping up on the truth Jon. All of the screaming and
>> second hand guessing is almost always done from a position of
>> ignorance of the tests themselves.
>>
>> All of the usual methods of measuring hematocrit are more than
>> accurate enough for a medical diagnosis. But they aren't accurate
>> enough to use as a hair trigger guilt/non-guilt verdict.
>
> Actually, I was referring to you, Tom.
Of course you were. And yet you didn't address my posting as is usual for
the group here.
|
| |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 08:14:29
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
benjo maso wrote:
>
> Yes, of course, but not quite. I have some grudging admiration for such a
> burning detremination. Besides, I understand better Riis' uncompromising
> attitude to everything connected to doping in his own team. I always thought
> it was rather hypocrite.But it probably isn't. Nobody knows better how
> dagnerous and destructive the use of products like epo can be.
There's nothing worse than a reformed whore. That sort of evangelical
behavior, as we've seen repeatedly, often masks behavior of an
entirely different sort.
http://pitch.com/2005-08-18/news/unnatural-selection/
Just the sort of people I want leading a crusade.
R
|
| |
Date: 26 Mar 2007 04:50:27
From:
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
|
On 25, 8:29 pm, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
> D'Hond also said that
> Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands.>
> Benjo
Joint pain is a side effect of human growth hormone. When it's used
in patient or study populations this is often the reason people
discontinue it's use.
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 04:43:04
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
J. Spaceman
On Mon, 26 2007 02:29:34 +0200, "benjo maso"
<benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
>Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good - Pound
>got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting him -
>and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was what
>ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For
>instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the
>only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but
>D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently
>the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that
>Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of rheumatism,
>which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we
>all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
>willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously,
>really deserved to win.
>
>Benjo
>
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 17:33:40
From: Jonathan v.d. Sluis
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org > wrote in
news:8r1f031n547qf0j8r18rnd3eliaips3tmm@4ax.com:
> What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
>
http://www.canvas.be/canvas_master/programmas/panorama/c_panorama_dezeweek/
index.shtml
There's a small play button next to the photograph.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman
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Date: 27 Mar 2007 02:47:55
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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On 26 2007 17:33:40 GMT, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl >
wrote:
>Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
>news:8r1f031n547qf0j8r18rnd3eliaips3tmm@4ax.com:
>
>> What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
>>
>
>http://www.canvas.be/canvas_master/programmas/panorama/c_panorama_dezeweek/
>index.shtml
>
>There's a small play button next to the photograph.
>
Thanks.
J. Spaceman
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 16:37:09
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org > wrote in message
news:8r1f031n547qf0j8r18rnd3eliaips3tmm@4ax.com...
> What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?
>
I dont know if it's available online. I haven't found it. It was on Canvas
and it was called "Een positief verhaal" ("A Positive Story"). The
`positive' part of the story was that the programme makers demonstrated that
Belgian riders in general and Flemish riders in particular are as "clean" as
can be.
Benjo
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 16:38:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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benjo maso wrote:
> I dont know if it's available online. I haven't found it. It was on Canvas
> and it was called "Een positief verhaal" ("A Positive Story"). The
> `positive' part of the story was that the programme makers demonstrated that
> Belgian riders in general and Flemish riders in particular are as "clean" as
> can be.
Now all they need do is clean up the dogs.
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 04:39:44
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
> Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody
> conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.).
> The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his
> Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to
> take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite
> (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a
> hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't
> give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible
> side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and
> painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider
> who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like
> that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to
> win.
>
> Benjo
The more I read and hear about Zabel, the more I like the guy.
Riis? Nothing new there. I assume you're being sarcastic.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 10:31:42
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:k8INh.11105$Um6.9934@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
>> Pound got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody
>> conradicting him - and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.).
>> The only news was what ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his
>> Telekom-years (1996-97). For instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to
>> take EPO (I think he was the only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact
>> opposite (surprise, sursprise), but D'Hond also told that once Riis had a
>> hematocrite level of 64 %! Apparently the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't
>> give Riis his due. D'Hond also said that Riis was suffering from terrible
>> side effects, like some kind of rheumatism, which was so serious and
>> painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we all agree that a rider
>> who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was willing to suffer like
>> that, risking his life and his health simultaneously, really deserved to
>> win.
>>
>> Benjo
>
>
> The more I read and hear about Zabel, the more I like the guy.
>
> Riis? Nothing new there. I assume you're being sarcastic.
Yes, of course, but not quite. I have some grudging admiration for such a
burning detremination. Besides, I understand better Riis' uncompromising
attitude to everything connected to doping in his own team. I always thought
it was rather hypocrite.But it probably isn't. Nobody knows better how
dagnerous and destructive the use of products like epo can be.
Benjo
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Date: 25 Mar 2007 21:05:38
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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On 25, 6:29 pm, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
>I think we
> all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
> willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health simultaneously,
> really deserved to win.
>
> Benjo
With all due respect Benjo, I disagree. The rider who would have been
best if they were all clean deserved to win. Do you respect Zabel less
because he took a different path and didn't risk his health in the
same way? (I'm not saying Zabel was a GC contendor)
Bret
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Date: 26 Mar 2007 10:34:23
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1174881938.145580.281620@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 25, 6:29 pm, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>I think we
>> all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
>> willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health
>> simultaneously,
>> really deserved to win.
>>
>> Benjo
>
> With all due respect Benjo, I disagree. The rider who would have been
> best if they were all clean deserved to win. Do you respect Zabel less
> because he took a different path and didn't risk his health in the
> same way? (I'm not saying Zabel was a GC contendor)
Of course, I was a little sarcastic.
Benjo
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Date: 25 Mar 2007 23:19:02
From: Charles
Subject: Re: Jef D'Hont
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"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in message
news:56oifbF2a28kiU1@mid.individual.net...
> Tonight a program on doping in cycling on Belgian TV. Not very good -
Pound
> got the opportunity to say all his half-truth with nobody conradicting
him -
> and almost nothing new (Emma O'Reilly, Landis, etc.). The only news was
what
> ex-soigneur Jef D'Hont was saying about his Telekom-years (1996-97). For
> instance he said that Erik Zabel refused to take EPO (I think he was the
> only one). Bjarne Riis was the exact opposite (surprise, sursprise), but
> D'Hond also told that once Riis had a hematocrite level of 64 %!
Apparently
> the nickname "Mister 60 %" doesn't give Riis his due. D'Hond also said
that
> Riis was suffering from terrible side effects, like some kind of
rheumatism,
> which was so serious and painful that he hardly move his hands. I think we
> all agree that a rider who wanted to win the Tour so badly that he was
> willing to suffer like that, risking his life and his health
simultaneously,
> really deserved to win.
>
> Benjo
>
>
Thats it, Zabel is my hero. I hope that he rides the Sixes for a few more
years so that I may have a chance to see him in action.
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