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Main
Date: 24 Jul 2007 17:15:51
From: chester
Subject: LANDIS Theory
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This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
doping the night before the ride.
Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
the night before "The Ride".
So dig on this.
Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
and "has no idea" where it came from.
It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
other stages he was tested.
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:31:18
From:
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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On Jul 25, 1:06 pm, Sticky Wicket <St...@home.com > wrote:
> On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article
> 1185330789.572847.20...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "anton2...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <anton2...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 8:15 pm, chester <ches...@hotmeal.com> wrote:
> >> This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
> >> reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
> >> the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
> >> doping the night before the ride.
>
> >> Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
> >> the night before "The Ride".
>
> >> So dig on this.
>
> >> Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
> >> competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
> >> time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
> >> training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
> >> blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
> >> and "has no idea" where it came from.
>
> >> It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
> >> training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
> >> Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
> >> It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
> >> other stages he was tested.
>
> >> I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
> >> but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> > Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up
>
> Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is still a benefit. But I agree it does seem strange. It is his
explanation
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 01:26:35
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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On Jul 24, 10:37 pm, Jeff Jones <drjone...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
> > because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
> > volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
> > would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
> > concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
> > have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
> > level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549
>
> > Ben
> > Dilute! Dilute! OK!
>
> I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
> introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
> to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
> concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
> levels in the body.
>
It is possible that I have my head up my ass (Well,
on this subject; it's surely true on _something_).
I don't know how quickly the introduced testosterone
would be metabolized and excreted - it's on the scale
of a day or two, right? But would the excess T be
metabolized quickly just because it was over Floyd's
current levels, or would it have to be actually
unusually high?
That is, it's hard to make a prediction
without knowing what controls the response -
whether the body is trying to maintain its previous
equilibrium, or just keep hormone levels within some
normal range. I would naively expect that the rates
of metabolizing T and E would be proportional to their
concentrations, thus if T suddenly doubled and E was
unaffected, the rate of T-metabolite production would
double. This would rapidly use up the introduced T,
but it's still difficult to see how to triple the rate.
Ben
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 05:10:01
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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On Jul 25, 5:33 am, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
> very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
> everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton
> more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very
> bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe
> win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy
> and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a
> way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is
> a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b-
> type personalities need not apply.
Bipolar racing...?
R
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:12:55
From: Jeff Jones
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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On Jul 25, 8:55 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 25, 7:37 am, Jeff Jones <drjone...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
> > introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
> > to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
> > concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
> > levels in the body.
>
> How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
> elevated?
T might have been elevated from a much lower level.
All speculation, of course.
Jeff
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:50:23
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:12:55 -0000, Jeff Jones <drjones99@gmail.com > wrote:
>On Jul 25, 8:55 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jul 25, 7:37 am, Jeff Jones <drjone...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
>> > introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
>> > to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
>> > concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
>> > levels in the body.
>>
>> How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
>> elevated?
>
>T might have been elevated from a much lower level.
>
>All speculation, of course.
It is, of course. Still, Low E and wildly inconsistent results seems like the
exact thing one would expect from a soured sample. I don't know how they get
around that one.
Ron
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:33:54
From:
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton
more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very
bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe
win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy
and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a
way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is
a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b-
type personalities need not apply.
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 16:38:58
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
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in message <1185356034.946947.99870@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com >,
taxthis2007@yahoo.com (' taxthis2007@yahoo.com') wrote:
> One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
> very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
> everyone else in the tour.
Not convinced of this - from my own experience - at all. Once you get
dropped out of the pack and are working on your own, you have to work
harder. Further more if you lose a chunk of time early in the stage and
are then left out on your own struggling to escape Hors Delai, you may
actually have to ride as hard as the leaders without any of the help. Mind
you, if you are in (or can get into) the autobus, you'll have riders
around you to share the work and then you may have a relatively easy time.
But I don't recall Vino being in the autobus on his bad day (although he
did have a couple of domestiques with him). Landis spent his bad day in
the peloton, of course, so your theory could be valid there.
Simon - never has extraordinary days. Well, not that kind.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 00:55:17
From:
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On Jul 25, 7:37 am, Jeff Jones <drjone...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
> introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
> to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
> concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
> levels in the body.
How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
elevated?
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 05:37:49
From: Jeff Jones
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> Dumbass,
>
> We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
> because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
> volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
> would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
> concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
> have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
> level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549
>
> Ben
> Dilute! Dilute! OK!
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.
Jeff
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 04:13:53
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On Jul 24, 7:22 pm, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
>
> dumbass,
>
> that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
>
> of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
> but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
> testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
>
> if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
> (or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
> high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
> it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
> his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
> that effect alone).
Dumbass,
We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549
Ben
Dilute! Dilute! OK!
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 23:06:41
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1185336833.622734.173020@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549
>
> Ben
> Dilute! Dilute! OK!
Dr Bronner? Is that you?
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 19:33:09
From:
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On Jul 24, 8:15 pm, chester <ches...@hotmeal.com > wrote:
> This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
> reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
> the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
> doping the night before the ride.
>
> Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
> the night before "The Ride".
>
> So dig on this.
>
> Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
> competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
> time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
> training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
> blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
> and "has no idea" where it came from.
>
> It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
> training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
> Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
> It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
> other stages he was tested.
>
> I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
> but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 17:06:51
From: Sticky Wicket
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article
1185330789.572847.20290@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "anton2468@aol.com"
<anton2468@aol.com > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 8:15 pm, chester <ches...@hotmeal.com> wrote:
>> This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
>> reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
>> the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
>> doping the night before the ride.
>>
>> Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
>> the night before "The Ride".
>>
>> So dig on this.
>>
>> Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
>> competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
>> time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
>> training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
>> blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
>> and "has no idea" where it came from.
>>
>> It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
>> training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
>> Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
>> It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
>> other stages he was tested.
>>
>> I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
>> but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up
Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:22:47
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
On Jul 24, 8:28 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> chester wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
> > but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
> testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
> sealed the deal.
dumbass,
that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
(or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
that effect alone).
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:34:04
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185330167.395120.19370@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 8:28 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> chester wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>
>> > I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
>> > but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
>>
>> Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
>> testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
>> sealed the deal.
>
> that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
>
> of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
> but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
> testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
>
> if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
> (or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
> high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
> it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
> his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
> that effect alone).
Except of course that the "previous allowed" ratio was 6:1 which is natually
occurring in athletes all the time.
And of course Floyd's FIRST sample A test showed 4.5 and the second sample A
test showed 11:1 demonstrating contamination beyond doubt.
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 00:28:16
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: LANDIS Theory
|
chester wrote:
<snip >
>
> I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
> but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
>
Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
sealed the deal.
--
Bill Asher
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