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Main
Date: 18 Sep 2007 13:09:44
From: Dumbass
Subject: Landis Stage 17
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In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
radio.
The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
so much time.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 09:10:44
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 20, 9:11 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
> > absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
> > can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
> > events to unfold in the manner they did.
>
> Well... I don't think the peloton was "dumb" even in hindsight. Landis
> was what... 8 minutes down? The other guys with GC ambitions had other
> riders to worry about... and I don't think anyone expected Landis to
> be as strong as he was at the end. The most plausible scenario was
> that Landis would make a heroic effort, but lose most of his lead in
> the last valley, and fade on the last climb... and either be caught or
> win by a small margin.
Landis had this watt meter strategy going. He kept his watts constant
at a level that he knew from experience would not lead to a bonk. He
really throttled himself back by watching he watt meter early in the
day when his adrenaline was going.
> The peloton cruised over the climbs, allowing
> their good flatland riders to hang on and contribute to the chase in
> the valley leading up to the final climb. That is where the peloton
> spent it's effort, but surprisingly it wasn't enough. If they had
> spent themselves earlier, then the other GC guys would have been on
> their own... and how would that have been better? Maybe they could
> have caught Landis... and maybe not. It was a great strategy combined
> with a great performance... one of the best races I've seen.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 09:07:17
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 20, 9:11 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
> > absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
> > can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
> > events to unfold in the manner they did.
>
> Well... I don't think the peloton was "dumb" even in hindsight. Landis
> was what... 8 minutes down? The other guys with GC ambitions had other
> riders to worry about... and I don't think anyone expected Landis to
> be as strong as he was at the end. The most plausible scenario was
> that Landis would make a heroic effort, but lose most of his lead in
> the last valley, and fade on the last climb... and either be caught or
> win by a small margin. The peloton cruised over the climbs, allowing
> their good flatland riders to hang on and contribute to the chase in
> the valley leading up to the final climb. That is where the peloton
> spent it's effort, but surprisingly it wasn't enough. If they had
> spent themselves earlier, then the other GC guys would have been on
> their own... and how would that have been better? Maybe they could
> have caught Landis... and maybe not. It was a great strategy combined
> with a great performance... one of the best races I've seen.
Landis thought the GC guys could keep the gap smaller if they got
organized after their team support was spent.
The yellow jersey was in the hands of a poor time trialer. There must
have been a different favorite for the GC and he was the one who lost
out that day. But I don't recall the details.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 09:03:33
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 20, 9:11 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
> > absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
> > can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
> > events to unfold in the manner they did.
>
> Well... I don't think the peloton was "dumb" even in hindsight. Landis
> was what... 8 minutes down? The other guys with GC ambitions had other
> riders to worry about... and I don't think anyone expected Landis to
> be as strong as he was at the end. The most plausible scenario was
> that Landis would make a heroic effort, but lose most of his lead in
> the last valley, and fade on the last climb... and either be caught or
> win by a small margin. The peloton cruised over the climbs, allowing
> their good flatland riders to hang on and contribute to the chase in
> the valley leading up to the final climb. That is where the peloton
> spent it's effort, but surprisingly it wasn't enough. If they had
> spent themselves earlier, then the other GC guys would have been on
> their own... and how would that have been better? Maybe they could
> have caught Landis... and maybe not. It was a great strategy combined
> with a great performance... one of the best races I've seen.
In Landis book he said he figured the GC guys would catcht him if they
worked together after their team support was spent.
BTW, the yellow jersey was in the hands of a poor time-trialer on
Stage 17, I don't remember his name. There must have been a "virtual"
leader b
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 06:11:41
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 18, 5:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
> absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
> can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
> events to unfold in the manner they did.
Well... I don't think the peloton was "dumb" even in hindsight. Landis
was what... 8 minutes down? The other guys with GC ambitions had other
riders to worry about... and I don't think anyone expected Landis to
be as strong as he was at the end. The most plausible scenario was
that Landis would make a heroic effort, but lose most of his lead in
the last valley, and fade on the last climb... and either be caught or
win by a small margin. The peloton cruised over the climbs, allowing
their good flatland riders to hang on and contribute to the chase in
the valley leading up to the final climb. That is where the peloton
spent it's effort, but surprisingly it wasn't enough. If they had
spent themselves earlier, then the other GC guys would have been on
their own... and how would that have been better? Maybe they could
have caught Landis... and maybe not. It was a great strategy combined
with a great performance... one of the best races I've seen.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 05:32:10
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 20, 3:24 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 19, 1:12 pm, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > > stages.
>
> > who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> > long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> > should know that.
>
> I recall Floyd saying in an interview shortly after that he knew that
> if he was tired, so was everybody else. And that his bonk could have
> happened to anyone. So he made a move with nothing to lose, and
> everyone else was too wasted to gamble doing anything about it, just
> as Floyd hoped.
>
> Joseph
In his book, he said that he figured they would let his team go
early. He went for a big lead early to be completely out of sight.
He figured that the contenders could cut down his lead if they worked
together, but he figured, correctly, that they might never get it
together to do that.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 05:26:09
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 20, 8:12 am, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 19, 7:12 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > > stages.
>
> > who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> > long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> > should know that.
>
> Landis' "bonk" involved feeling bad from the get go and never having
> any legs. He could not keep up early with his own teammates. So it
> might have been more of a rest day effect. Not the usual fade on the
> last hill.
Stage 16 is interesting viewed as a possible strategy. Normally a
team leader gets pulled by his team early and then has to go out a
fight for the lead. Landis ended up being pulled all day. Of course,
it's not worth sacraficing 10 minutes or whatever he lost.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 05:19:20
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 18, 7:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> > In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
> > best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
> > radio.
>
> > The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
> > to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
> > team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
> > their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
> > so much time.
>
> The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
> absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
> can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
> events to unfold in the manner they did.
>
> Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
> personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over his
> head. I was there that day; it was nastily hot. I was constantly having to
> keep track of how much water I was drinking, to make sure it would last
> until I could get more. Landis got to waste as much as he wanted, just to
> stay cool. And the effect of cool water plus the evaporative cooling that
> occurs at 23mph is not to be underestimated.
Landis said in the book that he discovered that dumping water on his
head made him feel better while maintaining his wattage goal. Did not
increase his power but made him feel better. Of course, he was
avoiding excessive power output for fear of bonking late.
There are advantages to this strategy, spending your team early to
get ahead, then being alone with your team car. But only a guy who
was way behind could pull off such an early break.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Dumbass" <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190146184.614906.104860@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
> > best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
> > radio.
>
> > The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
> > to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
> > team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
> > their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
> > so much time.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 05:12:12
From: Dumbass
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 19, 7:12 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages.
>
> who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> should know that.
Landis' "bonk" involved feeling bad from the get go and never having
any legs. He could not keep up early with his own teammates. So it
might have been more of a rest day effect. Not the usual fade on the
last hill.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 00:24:42
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 19, 1:12 pm, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages.
>
> who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> should know that.
I recall Floyd saying in an interview shortly after that he knew that
if he was tired, so was everybody else. And that his bonk could have
happened to anyone. So he made a move with nothing to lose, and
everyone else was too wasted to gamble doing anything about it, just
as Floyd hoped.
Joseph
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 14:02:22
From:
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
On Sep 19, 4:12 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages.
>
> who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> should know that.
Now if you only knew half of what you think you know.
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 04:12:09
From:
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> stages.
>
who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
should know that.
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Date: 22 Sep 2007 01:47:31
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
In article <1190200329.953139.149920@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
raamman@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> > for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> > stages.
> >
> who does he think he's kidding ? it IS exceptional at the end of a
> long stage race and doubly so the day after bonking; everyone here
> should know that.
Mm. Because nobody in cycling has ever bounced back from a jour sans.
And escapes never have a chance in the second half of a grand tour.
What Landis did that day was exceptional, but not inexplicable. The
wattage doesn't look out of place, and doped or not, the reason he
didn't get caught was a combination of a total commitment to the escape,
and the riders behind not wanting to lose their Prisoner's Dilemma game
against the other riders.
If you read the history books, there are an awful lot of races that
looked like this.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 19:56:43
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
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On Sep 18, 5:56 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
> personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over his
> head. I was there that day; it was nastily hot. I was constantly having to
> keep track of how much water I was drinking, to make sure it would last
> until I could get more. Landis got to waste as much as he wanted, just to
> stay cool. And the effect of cool water plus the evaporative cooling that
> occurs at 23mph is not to be underestimated.
Yes, all true, but that really doesn't tell us anything about whether
he might have used a banned "patch" after his abominable performance
the day before. And regardless of the outcome of the arbitration or
any subsequent appeal, we'll probably never know the real truth. I
have been rooting for Floyd, but the argument at the hearing that
jumped out at me was that of USADA when they asserted, in essence,"he
would not have used testosterone to abnormally RAISE his testosterone
level but was merely trying to artificially RESTORE it to the level of
a normal human male" (which would, generally speaking, not have been
expected to trigger a postive in a doping test based upon T/E
levels). IIUC the alleged presence of SYNTHETIC testosterone is a
different issue entirely- and is the primary battle he was fighting in
arbitration (it doesn't matter if his actual testosterone level is low
if some of it is shown to be synthetic).
DR
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 19:55:13
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
On Sep 18, 7:36 pm, "Frank Drackman" <frankdr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4BZHi.539$6p6.402@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>
> > Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
> > personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over his
> > head.
>
> I have always wondered where the team car got the 70 something bottles that
> they claimed FL used. Did the stop at a store along the way to get refills?
That's probably not that many when you consider that on a normal hot
stage they might easily be carrying that many for a nine-man team.
DR
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 23:56:48
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
> best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
> radio.
>
> The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
> to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
> team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
> their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
> so much time.
The peloton played incredibly dumb that day, no question. Landis had
absolutely nothing to lose by playing that card, and everything to gain. I
can't imagine what was going on in the minds of the various DSs that allowed
events to unfold in the manner they did.
Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over his
head. I was there that day; it was nastily hot. I was constantly having to
keep track of how much water I was drinking, to make sure it would last
until I could get more. Landis got to waste as much as he wanted, just to
stay cool. And the effect of cool water plus the evaporative cooling that
occurs at 23mph is not to be underestimated.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Dumbass" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1190146184.614906.104860@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
> best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
> radio.
>
> The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
> to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
> team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
> their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
> so much time.
>
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 18:36:51
From: Frank Drackman
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:4BZHi.539$6p6.402@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
> Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
> personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over his
> head.
I have always wondered where the team car got the 70 something bottles that
they claimed FL used. Did the stop at a store along the way to get refills?
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 00:01:46
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
"Frank Drackman" <frankdrack@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:2tqdnYez35K74G3bnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> news:4BZHi.539$6p6.402@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> Do keep in mind that Landis also had the huge advantage of having his own
>> personal following car, with an unlimited supply of water to dump over
>> his head.
>
> I have always wondered where the team car got the 70 something bottles
> that they claimed FL used. Did the stop at a store along the way to get
> refills?
There would be team vehicles at the feed zone where the Phonak follow car
could replenish from team supplies.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//tour06/?id=stages/tour0617
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 14:36:35
From: Andre
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
> for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
> stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
> best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
> radio.
>
> The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
> to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
> team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
> their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
> so much time.
You can't catch a motorcycle.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 18:27:48
From: WeaselPoopPower
Subject: Re: Landis Stage 17
|
Andre wrote:
> On Sep 18, 4:09 pm, Dumbass <tadams...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In his book, Landis reports that his wattage was not that exceptional
>> for the Stage, in the range of a hard training day or his other good
>> stages. He just kept his output steady because he found that to be
>> best. He focused on the watt meter, particularly after he shorted his
>> radio.
>>
>> The exceptional thing was that the other leaders never got organized
>> to attack back. He figured that a team could not do it, he used his
>> team early. But if the leaders got organized to work together after
>> their teams were spent, they could have prevented him from making up
>> so much time.
>
> You can't catch a motorcycle.
>
Dopped or not Floyd caught them in a serious Cat 3 moment.
One could argue the only reason he's in hot seat is little ol redneck
Floyd embarrassed the entire Euro peloton.
As for motorcycles that go 23mph.... here's a comparison chart from his
powertap
http://www.tow.com/2006/07/28/landis-training-ride-compared-to-stage-17/
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