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Main
Date: 29 Oct 2007 16:54:19
From: Marian
Subject: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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The Tour is about to start and everyone is down in Sanya now. I had
the misfortune to run into a member of the Sanya City Circuit Race
Organizing Committee this morning. He walked into the race office
with some task and was somehow under the misconception that although
our department freely offers services above and beyond our actually
duties to everyone else that we'd actually help him out with
something.
Rather than realize that he was coming to us and asking us for a favor
he decided to argue from the position that, under normal
circumstances, he's higher rank than everyone else who was in the room
at the time. By default we must be wrong and we must do what he
says. These aren't normal circumstances. And my coworkers tend to
support the theory that if you publish prize money you ought to award
it.
This rather long message is the English working draft of something
that is currently in the process of being
translated into Chinese to be posted on a very popular Chinese blog.
The Chinese version is a collaborative effort deliberately intended to
embarrass them as much as possible.
I didn't originally intend to post this anywhere in English outside of
my private mailing list but I found out today at lunch that the Sanya
City Cycling Association is going to try to have an International Race
next year. Apparently they've been inspired by the Tour of Hainan's
fabulous success.
I don't really think they're going to be able to manage it. But It is
my hope that if they do manage to do so perhaps some team that they
invite will do a google search on "Sanya" and "Bike Race," find this
post and decide not to attend.
...
This year I attended my second Sanya City Circuit Race as a
competitor. I have lived in Hainan for nearly four years at this
point and although I now live in Sanya I had not originally planned to
go. The previous year's organization had been so poor with a number
of athletes from the men's category becoming lost on the road, the
women's advanced category recieving prize money and trophies for the
common category, and all of the athletes recieving less than the
published amount of money and awards that I was somewhat leery of
entering a second time. I was even less inclined to enter when I
discovered that the one person who had entered from Changjiang was
represented on the Sanya City Cycling Association's webpage as being
part of a group of seven representing Wenchang or that I had
apparently claimed that I was not only coming back but planned to take
first place at the 2007 edition.
Notwithstanding the fact that my Chinese simply wasn't good enough to
have said that at that time in that way I have never had first place
as my goal and I would never claim to have first place as my goal.
Even though I now routinely place highly at races my goal remains the
same as it was the very first time I was convinced to enter a race.
To have fun and to beat my personal best.
To this day I still consider my very best race results to be the 2006
Jianfengling Mountain Challenge where I was the last rider to cross
the finish before the close of the race. I've had my fair share of
first places but nothing can begin to compare to that.
Despite my reservations however, many people from Sanya insisted to me
that the mistakes of last year's event were only the mistakes of a
first year event and that this year would be better. I hoped that it
was so and despite my work with the Tour keeping me sufficiently busy
that I had not trained in more than six weeks I eventually made the
decision to enter.
When I signed in and recieved the rules as well as my frame and body
numbers Friday night I was pleased to see the list of names included
not only Mr.Qiu and Coach Li but also Frederick Chan and Mr.Xiu from
Hong Kong. As of Friday morning there had still been a chance that
Mr. Qiu might be able to go and I had waited around long past my
originally scheduled departure time in the hopes that he would be
going and that I would be able to go to Sanya with him. But if it
Coach Li and Frederick Chan and Mr.Xiu were also participating then it
was guaranteed that this year's race would be very very well run.
I haven't seen Coach Li since about two months before he went to
France with the Women's National Track Team. So much the better to
hear that he was not only back in Hainan but would be at a race that I
was participating in. I really wanted to show him my new race bike
and let him see how much better I'd gotten since the last time we'd
met face to face.
Saturday morning I did not get to show Coach Li my bike because Coach
Li was not there. Coach Li was still in France with the Women's
National Track Team. Coach Li will be in France with the Women's
National Track Team until the Olympics.
I did not get to talk to Mr.Chan (who will be Chief Commissaire at
this year's Tour) because he too was not there. He was in Hong Kong.
Because I haven't previously met him, I would not know until later
that Mr. Xiu also was not there. Out of the five Chinese Cycling
Association people mentioned in the printed rules, only one was there
and I wouldn't find out until later that he was only a guest and not
an official.
Although I was originally in the Women's Common Category I changed
categories the morning of the road race. Two of the other three
riders in Common were Hainan's Xing Chunlei and Long Ling. I always
race against them. If the course is flat I usually win. That would
be much too boring.
Women's Advanced lined up at the same time as Men's Advanced. Despite
five names being on the sheet at sign-on there were only four of us.
62.4 kilometers. This was not going to be easy and I was going to get
my butt kicked. But I was going to have fun. And that was the whole
point. To have fun.
Men's Advanced included a New Zealander named Nathan Dahlberg in his
late 40s. It's been over twenty years since he participated in the
Tour de France but I was thrilled to be in a line-up with someone like
that. Later I would learn that Jan Kole from Holland, who was also at
the start with us, had participated in the Giro and Vuelta as well as
all varities of large and small races in Europe in the 1960s.
They and their much younger friends from Shenzhen started us fast and
kept us going fast. Nothing in the world compares with riding a bike
in a fast pack. It cannot be properly described to anyone who has
never done it before. I've ridden fast. I've ridden in a fast
paceline. I've ridden in a pack. This was the first time riding fast
in a group of more than five. And we weren't merely going fast, we
were going very fast. Very very fast.
All I needed to do was stick with the pack, hang on to the very tail
end until the women broke off at the fourth lap and maybe I could
sprint for a decent finish. That's what happened at last year's
race. Even with weeks of not training and a punishing 62.4 kilometers
of riding maybe I could do it.
Maybe not.
On the homestretch of the first lap, Sanya Bay road just past the old
airport coming back in to the city the pack was going 45 kilometers
per hour and I couldn't keep up. I was dropped.
Later on I would find out that a competitor of mine from Yunnan
dropped off the pack shortly after I did and waited up for me. With
as few amateur women bike racers as there are in China there are even
less really fast women and we all know each other. She already knew
that she was going to be dropped soon enough so why not ride with me?
However, I never caught her, and only learned this at the finish line.
Into the second lap I was passing Yanglan when the combined Men's and
Women's Common Race caught up to me. I rode with them for a while and
got a good rest. Because of wind a large group allows you to put
forth less effort for more speed. In my case their group was going
the same speed as a group that I had been doing all on my own. But at
least it meant I could have a rest.
On the beach road again and heading into the third lap some of the
riders attacked and broke the pack into a number of smaller groups. As
Xing Chunlei and Long Ling headed for their finish line I continued
into the third lap with a man I'd never met before.
We alternated. He'd take the lead and let me rest for a while then we
would switch and I would sprint as fast as I could to try to pull him
up to the next man. But I was running out of energy fast and
eventually he went ahead without me.
>From the end of the third lap all the way through the fourth lap I
rode alone. By this time I was not feeling especially good. I was
glad that the race was almost over. According to my odometer I
crossed the finish line at 2 hours and 5 minutes for an average speed
of 30.2 kilometers per hour. I've never before gone so far so fast.
It felt really good.
I handed my bike to a friend and watched the Men's Advanced cross the
finish line.
My mouth was dry and I was thirsty but the water didn't taste right.
Another friend of mine helped me walk over to the wall and sit down in
the shade. A third handed me a bottle of coca cola and I sent him to
look for salt. I was sitting there in the shade drinking the coke
when I started shivering. I wasn't cold but I couldn't stop
shivering. A spectator sitting near me loudly announced that
something was wrong. "She's cold! Get her back into the sunlight!"
The wife of one of the men from the common race took my gloves off and
started massaging my hands as the friend from Changjiang pushed back
through the crowd with the doctor from the ambulance.
He gave me a liter bottle of saline solution for injection. I drank a
third of it in one mouthful. And it tasted good.
Long Ling got into the ambulance with me and alternated between
handing me coca cola, water, and more saline to drink. Over an hour
passed between my crossing the finish line and the final plans being
made for lunch which included how I was going to get there and what
was going to be done with my bike.
At no time did anyone officially involved with the race check to see
how I was doing. Nor was I officially given my results. Although the
officials apparently didn't care enough to find out why one of the
racers was sitting in the ambulance, my competitors as well as many of
the other cyclists and their friends all came by to see me. It was in
this way that I found out that two of them did not finish so, by
default, I was in second place.
The next day, after the mountain bike competition, I went to the hotel
to collect my prize money and trophy. Things were busy in the Race
Office for the Tour and I needed to get back to Haikou early. I was
accompanied by fourteen members of the Shenzhen bike team. They too
could not stay for the Closing Ceremonies because they had a flight to
catch.
W hen Ms Yang Ze showed up (forty minutes late) she said that only
four women had entered on Saturday so, according to the rules, only
first place was due to get a prize. But that wasn't what the rules
said. The rules said "if less than five register" and there had been
five even if one of them did not show up. I showed her where it said
that in the rules and she left to go upstairs to talk with Mr. Wang
Hongsen.
Ten minutes later she came back and said that indeed I was correct.
Five women had signed up therefore the first three finishers would be
awarded prizes as in accordance with the printed rules. However, she
continued, I was not second place and had in fact been short a lap.
Certainly I remembered riding four laps. And I had an odometer that
confirmed that I had ridden four laps. And I had friends who had seen
that I had ridden four laps. But those could not be trusted. I must
trust the word of their judges. These were the same judges who, last
year, needed the word of first, second, third, and fourth place to
confirm that Long Ling was fifth and not eighth.
The judges weren't available. And when I pressed for information I
was eventually told that because they somehow knew I was short a lap
no one had taken my time at the finish line. They had absolutely no
proof that I had not ridden a full race and refused to accept my
proof.
As the day went on and I reached more and more cyclists who had seen
me finish at about the right time for a 60 kilometer race Mr. Wang
Hongsen now changed his mind and decided that even if I had been
second place it didn't matter because only four of the five women who
registered had participated and therefore only the first place would
receive prize money or a trophy.
Eventually I went back to Haikou with a nebulous promise that if they
ever did reach a decision regarding my second place results, trophy or
prize money they would call me but Wang Hongsen refused to give me his
own telephone number.
Such sloppy organization and unprofessional behavior gives both a race
and the city that hosts it a bad name. The head of the Shenzhen bike
team is a former professional racer and he was more disgusted with the
way I had been treated than I was. Before leaving he promised that
not only will his team never come back he'll make sure that his
friends also don't come.
As someone who lives in Sanya and who truly enjoys cycling as a sport
I can only hope that the Sanya City Cycling Association gets their act
together with regards to following their own published specific
regulations, handing out prize money, and adhering to the standard
practices of bike races or, in the event of a third edition, no one
will come. And that would just be embarrassing.
...
-M
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Date: 09 Nov 2007 10:41:02
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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On Oct 30, 2:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> Marian schreef:
>
> > As someone who lives in Sanya and who truly enjoys cycling as a sport
>
> If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
> 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
> you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
> money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
>
> BTW, I checked the ultra comprehensive "100 Years of road cyclists -
> Dutch professional riders and their results" and no mention of a Jan
> Kole, or Koole, Coole, Koelen or similar. Did he never leave the amateur
> ranks despite his Giro and Vuelta exploits?
>
> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
> shooter.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert
you know i think you have something wrong my dad raced in the 1980's
jan adriaan kole
sincerly Sander Kolw
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Date: 09 Nov 2007 12:00:18
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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gradegrade@gmail.com wrote:
>> BTW, I checked the ultra comprehensive "100 Years of road cyclists -
>> Dutch professional riders and their results" and no mention of a Jan
>> Kole, or Koole, Coole, Koelen or similar. Did he never leave the amateur
>> ranks despite his Giro and Vuelta exploits?
>
> you know i think you have something wrong my dad raced in the 1980's
> jan adriaan kole
Oh right, well in any case there is no-one by that name in the book,
purporting to hold all Dutch _professional_ road cyclists from 1895 to
1995 or thereabouts. Did your father have a contract as a professional
rider? If indeed he did, the book isn't complete after all...
Cheers.
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 09 Nov 2007 13:10:18
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>> BTW, I checked the ultra comprehensive "100 Years of road cyclists -
>>> Dutch professional riders and their results" and no mention of a Jan
>>> Kole, or Koole, Coole, Koelen or similar. Did he never leave the
>>> amateur ranks despite his Giro and Vuelta exploits?
gradegrade@gmail.com wrote:
>> you know i think you have something wrong my dad raced in the 1980's jan
>> adriaan kole
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Oh right, well in any case there is no-one by that name in the book,
> purporting to hold all Dutch _professional_ road cyclists from 1895 to
> 1995 or thereabouts. Did your father have a contract as a professional
> rider? If indeed he did, the book isn't complete after all...
Perhaps he wasn't registered/licensed in Holland ?
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Date: 09 Nov 2007 12:14:43
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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Donald Munro wrote:
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>> Oh right, well in any case there is no-one by that name in the book,
>> purporting to hold all Dutch _professional_ road cyclists from 1895 to
>> 1995 or thereabouts. Did your father have a contract as a professional
>> rider? If indeed he did, the book isn't complete after all...
>
> Perhaps he wasn't registered/licensed in Holland ?
No, doesn't matter, the scope of the book is all pro riders of Dutch
nationality.
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 10 Nov 2007 16:02:39
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Donald Munro wrote:
>> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>> Oh right, well in any case there is no-one by that name in the book,
>>> purporting to hold all Dutch _professional_ road cyclists from 1895 to
>>> 1995 or thereabouts. Did your father have a contract as a professional
>>> rider? If indeed he did, the book isn't complete after all...
>> Perhaps he wasn't registered/licensed in Holland ?
>
> No, doesn't matter, the scope of the book is all pro riders of Dutch
> nationality.
Dutch sporting names are always very confusing.
There was an English soccer manager in the late 70s who tried to sign
Hertz Van Rental.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 11:13:50
From: Marian
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
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On Oct 31, 10:09 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1193752935.226794.65...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Marian <marian.rosenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 30, 9:07 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Oct 30, 2:02 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> > > > > seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> > > > > and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> > > > > promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> > > > > field behaves that way.
>
> > > > You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
> > > > but in Marian's case of recreational bike racing, I don't buy it. I
> > > > didn't need convincing by Chang: it don't mean a thing. Actually,
> > > > that's how I approached my own sporting career. I admit this much,
> > > > that could be the reason it never went anywhere... However, it is
> > > > still the way I teach my pupils: I am serious about my investments,
> > > > they should be serious about their commitment but only because we all
> > > > intrinsically love doing what we do. Don't expect, and make sure you
> > > > don't need, rewards other than your own enjoyment.
>
> > > > I know, I'm an amateur.
>
> > > No, I wasn't talking about the prize money. I don't give a rat's ass
> > > about it. What I think is shitty is saying they'll do something and
> > > then not coming through, because it shows that the organizers weren't
> > > serious about their commitment. Part of taking that commitment
> > > seriously is keeping track of the number of laps and timing the damn
> > > racers as they cross the line.
>
> > Yep.
>
> > Finding out why the ambulance has changed parking places is also a
> > part of that commitment. And I don't think I'm going too far out on a
> > limb to suggest that sending someone over to ask whomever is in the
> > ambulance if they are feeling alright is also a part of a commitment.
>
> > I am not, however, entirely sure that they did fail to keep results.
> > I was first told that I wasn't due prize money because only first
> > place got prize money. It was only after I argued that their own
> > specific regulations said that the first three finishers got prize
> > money that they decided to inform me that I wasn't in second place.
>
> > We're not talking about an insubstantial sum of prize money here
> > either. Even as a highly paid foreigner who can't find enough things
> > to spend all her money on it still represents about half my monthly
> > salary. But the point is that I can't find enough things to spend my
> > salary on already. The only part of my caring about the money they
> > didn't give me is that they published a set of rules that said they
> > would give it to me and then didn't.
>
> Have to agree with Marian on this: if you say you're going to pay out a
> prize, you had darned well better do so. And if you have a substantial
> prize for your race, you ought to do a good job of keeping track of
> placings.
It gets better. The fellow from the Sanya City Cycling Association
was here at lunch the other day and ended up at the same table with
(among others) one of China's three UCI Comissaires. This resulted in
his being asked all sorts of questions about how the race was
organized. He claimed that there was a lap board and that I was
approached at the finish line and informed that I was not a finisher
but because I was dehydrated and confused obviously forgot having been
told.
Today the domestic comissaires arrived including (among others) one of
my competitors. Since she's a lot more likely to pay attention to
things like the existence of lap boards and since she wasn't in bad
getting-on-the-ambulance condition at the finish line I tell her what
he said to confirm or deny that my impression of what happened was, in
fact, exactly what happened.
No lap board.
No one but our crowd around me at the finish line.
> > The local races I enter don't have any prize money and usually end up
> > with winners picking up the beer tab. This can be pretty expensive
> > and if you're a contender in your age category it's a good idea to
> > bring a big wodge of cash to the race just in case you end up winning.
>
> Holy perverse incentives, Batman!
>
> I think that sounds pretty good, actually, since in most races there's
> no need to do much to encourage people to try to win (in my amateur
> categories, bragging rights from outsprinting the other guy for
> second-last are way more important than prize money, or even draw
> prizes), but you do want to encourage participation. That means
> reasonable entry fees and generally treating the non-podium racers right.
All my local races have are draw prizes. Racers do, however, get a
discount at the bike shop.
> As much as I like to mock them, those joggers may be onto something with
> their finisher's medals.
I've got more than a few finisher's certificates.
-M
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 12:34:10
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 6:07 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> What I think is shitty is saying they'll do something and
> then not coming through, because it shows that the organizers weren't
> serious about their commitment. Part of taking that commitment
> seriously is keeping track of the number of laps and timing the damn
> racers as they cross the line.
I can easily live with that sort of commentary from a rumpled
autopilot prof.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 14:02:15
From: Marian
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 9:07 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:02 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> > > seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> > > and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> > > promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> > > field behaves that way.
>
> > You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
> > but in Marian's case of recreational bike racing, I don't buy it. I
> > didn't need convincing by Chang: it don't mean a thing. Actually,
> > that's how I approached my own sporting career. I admit this much,
> > that could be the reason it never went anywhere... However, it is
> > still the way I teach my pupils: I am serious about my investments,
> > they should be serious about their commitment but only because we all
> > intrinsically love doing what we do. Don't expect, and make sure you
> > don't need, rewards other than your own enjoyment.
>
> > I know, I'm an amateur.
>
> No, I wasn't talking about the prize money. I don't give a rat's ass
> about it. What I think is shitty is saying they'll do something and
> then not coming through, because it shows that the organizers weren't
> serious about their commitment. Part of taking that commitment
> seriously is keeping track of the number of laps and timing the damn
> racers as they cross the line.
Yep.
Finding out why the ambulance has changed parking places is also a
part of that commitment. And I don't think I'm going too far out on a
limb to suggest that sending someone over to ask whomever is in the
ambulance if they are feeling alright is also a part of a commitment.
I am not, however, entirely sure that they did fail to keep results.
I was first told that I wasn't due prize money because only first
place got prize money. It was only after I argued that their own
specific regulations said that the first three finishers got prize
money that they decided to inform me that I wasn't in second place.
We're not talking about an insubstantial sum of prize money here
either. Even as a highly paid foreigner who can't find enough things
to spend all her money on it still represents about half my monthly
salary. But the point is that I can't find enough things to spend my
salary on already. The only part of my caring about the money they
didn't give me is that they published a set of rules that said they
would give it to me and then didn't.
The local races I enter don't have any prize money and usually end up
with winners picking up the beer tab. This can be pretty expensive
and if you're a contender in your age category it's a good idea to
bring a big wodge of cash to the race just in case you end up winning.
-M
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 02:09:01
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
In article <1193752935.226794.65970@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
Marian <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 9:07 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Oct 30, 2:02 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> > > > seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> > > > and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> > > > promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> > > > field behaves that way.
> >
> > > You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
> > > but in Marian's case of recreational bike racing, I don't buy it. I
> > > didn't need convincing by Chang: it don't mean a thing. Actually,
> > > that's how I approached my own sporting career. I admit this much,
> > > that could be the reason it never went anywhere... However, it is
> > > still the way I teach my pupils: I am serious about my investments,
> > > they should be serious about their commitment but only because we all
> > > intrinsically love doing what we do. Don't expect, and make sure you
> > > don't need, rewards other than your own enjoyment.
> >
> > > I know, I'm an amateur.
> >
> > No, I wasn't talking about the prize money. I don't give a rat's ass
> > about it. What I think is shitty is saying they'll do something and
> > then not coming through, because it shows that the organizers weren't
> > serious about their commitment. Part of taking that commitment
> > seriously is keeping track of the number of laps and timing the damn
> > racers as they cross the line.
>
> Yep.
>
> Finding out why the ambulance has changed parking places is also a
> part of that commitment. And I don't think I'm going too far out on a
> limb to suggest that sending someone over to ask whomever is in the
> ambulance if they are feeling alright is also a part of a commitment.
>
> I am not, however, entirely sure that they did fail to keep results.
> I was first told that I wasn't due prize money because only first
> place got prize money. It was only after I argued that their own
> specific regulations said that the first three finishers got prize
> money that they decided to inform me that I wasn't in second place.
>
> We're not talking about an insubstantial sum of prize money here
> either. Even as a highly paid foreigner who can't find enough things
> to spend all her money on it still represents about half my monthly
> salary. But the point is that I can't find enough things to spend my
> salary on already. The only part of my caring about the money they
> didn't give me is that they published a set of rules that said they
> would give it to me and then didn't.
Have to agree with Marian on this: if you say you're going to pay out a
prize, you had darned well better do so. And if you have a substantial
prize for your race, you ought to do a good job of keeping track of
placings.
> The local races I enter don't have any prize money and usually end up
> with winners picking up the beer tab. This can be pretty expensive
> and if you're a contender in your age category it's a good idea to
> bring a big wodge of cash to the race just in case you end up winning.
Holy perverse incentives, Batman!
I think that sounds pretty good, actually, since in most races there's
no need to do much to encourage people to try to win (in my amateur
categories, bragging rights from outsprinting the other guy for
second-last are way more important than prize money, or even draw
prizes), but you do want to encourage participation. That means
reasonable entry fees and generally treating the non-podium racers right.
As much as I like to mock them, those joggers may be onto something with
their finisher's medals.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing
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| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 06:25:19
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 2:02 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
I try never to claim that I'm a statistician. However, are you saying
you saw this?
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/07/david_kane_on_lancet_confidenc.php#comment-514251
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| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 06:11:34
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 29, 4:40 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com > wrote:
> You're neither a preacher, lawyer/judge, or a politician, so what are
> you talking about and how would you know?
Have I mentioned how much I appreciate your taxes paying my salary?
Ooops, look at the time! I have to go back to bed and sleep in late so
I'll look properly rumpled when I autopilot my lecture today.
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 08:50:08
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
rechungREMOVETHIS wrote:
> Have I mentioned how much I appreciate your taxes paying my salary? Ooops,
> look at the time! I have to go back to bed and sleep in late so I'll look
> properly rumpled when I autopilot my lecture today.
Being in Paris that must be an Airbus autopilot.
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 08:40:16
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> Have I mentioned how much I appreciate your taxes paying my salary?
> Ooops, look at the time! I have to go back to bed and sleep in late so
> I'll look properly rumpled when I autopilot my lecture today.
Wade Churchill is working again?
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 09:30:30
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Have I mentioned how much I appreciate your taxes paying my salary?
>> Ooops, look at the time! I have to go back to bed and sleep in late so
>> I'll look properly rumpled when I autopilot my lecture today.
>
> Wade Churchill is working again?
Bill, if you are going to make political cracks, at least get the name
right. Try "Ward LeRoy Churchill".
Hmmm..., a Google search indicated the common error of "Wade Churchill"
on a lot of right wing blogs.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:44:55
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Hmmm..., a Google search indicated the common error of "Wade
> Churchill" on a lot of right wing blogs.
It was a typo. I've never read a blog (other than as a result of an
occasional Google search). They're boring and the formats are bothersome to
me.
Bill "but lots of libs earn their LIVINGS* working for 'em I hear" S.
*hint for hwnmnbm
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 06:07:43
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 2:02 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> > Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> > seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> > and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> > promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> > field behaves that way.
>
> You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
> but in Marian's case of recreational bike racing, I don't buy it. I
> didn't need convincing by Chang: it don't mean a thing. Actually,
> that's how I approached my own sporting career. I admit this much,
> that could be the reason it never went anywhere... However, it is
> still the way I teach my pupils: I am serious about my investments,
> they should be serious about their commitment but only because we all
> intrinsically love doing what we do. Don't expect, and make sure you
> don't need, rewards other than your own enjoyment.
>
> I know, I'm an amateur.
No, I wasn't talking about the prize money. I don't give a rat's ass
about it. What I think is shitty is saying they'll do something and
then not coming through, because it shows that the organizers weren't
serious about their commitment. Part of taking that commitment
seriously is keeping track of the number of laps and timing the damn
racers as they cross the line.
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 01:06:25
From: Marian
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 3:14 am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 29, 11:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
> > 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
> > you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
> > money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
>
> Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> field behaves that way.
Last year the Hainan Daily covered the Sanya race's not awarding prize
money and ended up with a bunch of people thinking that it was a
different first year event (ie the Tour) that had lots of angry racers
complaining about a poorly run event.
-M
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 01:04:20
From: Marian
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 30, 2:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> Marian schreef:
>
> > As someone who lives in Sanya and who truly enjoys cycling as a sport
>
> If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
> 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
> you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
> money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
> BTW, I checked the ultra comprehensive "100 Years of road cyclists -
> Dutch professional riders and their results" and no mention of a Jan
> Kole, or Koole, Coole, Koelen or similar. Did he never leave the amateur
> ranks despite his Giro and Vuelta exploits?
The other guy, who I'm very certain of having been in the Tour de
France (having heard of him from more than one different person and
having done a web search on him) is the one who told me that this guy
was in those races. Maybe I got the years wrong. I dunno. I'm
pretty darn sure that I heard the words Giro and Vuelta during those
conversations.
> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
> shooter.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 16:40:58
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 29, 12:14 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 29, 11:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
> > 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
> > you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
> > money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
>
> Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> field behaves that way.
You're neither a preacher, lawyer/judge, or a politician, so what are
you talking about and how would you know?
> > I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
> > born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
> > for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
> > shooter.
>
> I remember that guy. I think Ronde Champ used to talk about him.
It was Ronde's dad, aka Rumpe Cramp. rumpe_cramp@yahoo.com
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 20:01:01
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 29, 2:07 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
> shooter.
A Google search doesn't show his palmares. Am I looking in the wrong
place?
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 21:01:20
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2:07 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
>> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
>> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
>> shooter.
>
> A Google search doesn't show his palmares. Am I looking in the wrong
> place?
>
Phonetic spelling doesn't help.
You need to search for "dick" and "bukkake".
I think Ewoud can share the results of his Google image search too.
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 10:50:00
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
Stu Fleming wrote:
> Phonetic spelling doesn't help.
> You need to search for "dick" and "bukkake". I think Ewoud can share the
> results of his Google image search too.
Just an application of your old rbr speling theory.
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 09:40:41
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
* Stu Fleming <stewart@wic.co.nz > a écrit profondement:
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 02:02:30
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
* "derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com > a écrit profondement:
|
| | |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 21:14:29
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
derFahrer@gmail.com schreef:
>> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
>> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
>> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
>> shooter.
>
> A Google search doesn't show his palmares. Am I looking in the wrong
> place?
Hmmm, possibly.
(But he's real you know:
http://www.cyclingwebsite.net/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=2816)
--
E. Dronkert
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 12:14:06
From:
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
On Oct 29, 11:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
> 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
> you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
> money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
field behaves that way.
> I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
> born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
> for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
> shooter.
I remember that guy. I think Ronde Champ used to talk about him.
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 10:02:01
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>> If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
>> 30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
>> you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
>> money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
>
> Just cuz people do things for fun doesn't mean they don't take it
> seriously. This is particularly true if you work in a particular field
> and you see other people doing a shitty job and not making good on
> promises. It's irksome. You worry that others will think the entire
> field behaves that way.
You're probably hinting at misgivings about your fellow statisticians
but in Marian's case of recreational bike racing, I don't buy it. I
didn't need convincing by Chang: it don't mean a thing. Actually,
that's how I approached my own sporting career. I admit this much,
that could be the reason it never went anywhere... However, it is
still the way I teach my pupils: I am serious about my investments,
they should be serious about their commitment but only because we all
intrinsically love doing what we do. Don't expect, and make sure you
don't need, rewards other than your own enjoyment.
I know, I'm an amateur.
--
E. Dronkert
|
| |
Date: 29 Oct 2007 19:07:06
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: My Impressions of the Sanya City Circuit Race [long]
|
Marian schreef:
> As someone who lives in Sanya and who truly enjoys cycling as a sport
If you really do races because they're fun and to improve yourself, and
30.2 kph for 60 km was the fastest you ever went for the distance, and
you did not win, why did you get knickers in a twist over some prize
money and a 2nd place (loser's) trophy?!
BTW, I checked the ultra comprehensive "100 Years of road cyclists -
Dutch professional riders and their results" and no mention of a Jan
Kole, or Koole, Coole, Koelen or similar. Did he never leave the amateur
ranks despite his Giro and Vuelta exploits?
I did stumble upon the impressive palmares of Richard (Dick) Bukacki,
born 1946, professional 1968-1982, 4 full pages of results, 1 win each
for the 1st 2 years, several wins every year after that. A real sharp
shooter.
--
E. Dronkert
|
|
