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Main
Date: 01 Aug 2007 11:14:24
From: B. Lafferty
Subject: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_winner.html
".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make the
point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function without
them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom Simpson
died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
harder to dope.
There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
each team..........."
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:29:37
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 2:52 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > I have no idea what would work for golf though the news is about
> > steroids. The only things that appeal to me about golf are beer, golf
> > carts, and possibly combining the game with skeet shooting.
> > Bill C
>
> Beta blockers for calm and focus, growth hormone for vision,
> steroids for strength, I'd expect.
Don't forget pot, for the tedium.
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 05:27:12
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 2, 1:31 am, "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com >
wrote:
> On 08/01/2007 05:23 AM, in article
> 1185967420.054725.228...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Bill C"
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> > the Guardian.
> > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> 3 of the last 4 presidents of the United States were daily readers of the
> Guardian.
>
> I'll let you guess which idiot does not.
>
> --
> Steven L. Sheffield
> stevens at veloworks dot com
> bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
> ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
> aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
They should read it. For the same reason I get the right wing nutcase
updates. You need to know what they are up too.
You are aware that the Guardian's senior editor freely admits that
they are there to advance a world view, not provide journalism? I had
a series of discussions with them when they injected themselves into
our election with Operation Clark County. At least they are honest
about the fact that they are a propaganda outlet, and proud of it. I
respect them for that, but take anything they print as just that.
Bill C
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 10:30:27
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 05:27:12 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote:
>On Aug 2, 1:31 am, "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com>
>wrote:
>> On 08/01/2007 05:23 AM, in article
>> 1185967420.054725.228...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Bill C"
>>
>> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
>> > the Guardian.
>> > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
>> > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>>
>> 3 of the last 4 presidents of the United States were daily readers of the
>> Guardian.
>>
>> I'll let you guess which idiot does not.
>>
>> --
>> Steven L. Sheffield
>> stevens at veloworks dot com
>> bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
>> ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
>> aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
>> double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
>
>They should read it. For the same reason I get the right wing nutcase
>updates. You need to know what they are up too.
> You are aware that the Guardian's senior editor freely admits that
>they are there to advance a world view, not provide journalism? I had
>a series of discussions with them when they injected themselves into
>our election with Operation Clark County. At least they are honest
>about the fact that they are a propaganda outlet, and proud of it. I
>respect them for that, but take anything they print as just that.
The funniest part of the Clark Co. letters is what it said about the letter
writers and their motivation. My faves were the ones that went along the lines
of "because of Bush you look like the Tony Martins of the world." Which to the
tiny minority of Americans who knew who Tony was seemed just fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
Ron
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 00:54:28
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
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Laff@me is such a dope. If he had even one clue it would be a surprise.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 22:12:45
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Yo Bill! Swallow this...
http://www.forbes.com/2006/01/12/topless-beaches-resorts-cx_sb_0113feat_ls.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=topless+beaches&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLJ
http://www.google.com/search?q=topless+beaches&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLJ
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 14:00:48
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 9:38 am, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> Correct
>
> National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> between their legs they will still cheat.
In cycling (in English), it's "jersey," not "shirt."
If you're going to stick around in rbr past July, please
get the terminology correct. Please do stick around -
we'll have you doing amateur cyclocross races before
you know it, and the next thing you know, it's
Master Fattiedom, LiveDRUNK, and grubbing for Kenacort
prescriptions. Look at Ryan - he used to be such
a nice boy, before he started posting to rbr!
Ben
RBR Goodwill Ambassador
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 10:24:08
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Look at Ryan - he used to be such a nice boy, before he started
> posting to rbr!
Driven to drink by the evil cyclists of rbr.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 13:57:34
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 4:20 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > His local golf club in Florence released a statement later Wednesday,
> > defending him and saying that he had informed authorities at the time
> > of the test that he had taken the drug for almost two years to treat a
> > prostate problem.
>
> > Golf has come under increased pressure from the World Anti-Doping
> > Agency to introduce random drug testing after South African veteran
> > Gary Player claimed at the British Open last month that some golfers
> > were taking performance-enhancing drugs.
>
> You've got to wonder what type of performance-enhancing drug would be good
> for golf. Are there drugs that simultaneously calm you down, give you better
> control and more strength? This could show my complete ignorance of just
> about everything golf-related, of course.
>
> In this particular case, the issue is the masking of possible steroid use,
> and I just don't associate steroids with being calm, nerves of steel, that
> sort of thing.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185994207.540225.215710@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 1:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> > National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> >> > between their legs they will still cheat.
>
> >> Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue?
> >> Cheating
> >> is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
> >> manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
> >> universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on
> >> tests,
> >> etc.
>
> >> Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
> >> cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what
> >> the
> >> ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the
> >> most-obvious
> >> indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
> >> (perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize
> >> those
> >> attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
> >> end?
>
> >> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
I have no idea what would work for golf though the news is about
steroids. The only things that appeal to me about golf are beer, golf
carts, and possibly combining the game with skeet shooting.
Bill C
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| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 21:57:57
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Bill C wrote:
>
> I have no idea what would work for golf though the news is about
> steroids. The only things that appeal to me about golf are beer, golf
> carts, and possibly combining the game with skeet shooting.
> Bill C
What about having female topless caddies? I have this great idea for a
business but I'm not sure it would catch on. Would topless caddies make
you want to golf more or less?
If you could ask your topless caddy for a mashie niblick in the rough,
wouldn't that be cool?
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 14:52:15
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Bill C wrote:
> I have no idea what would work for golf though the news is about
> steroids. The only things that appeal to me about golf are beer, golf
> carts, and possibly combining the game with skeet shooting.
> Bill C
>
Beta blockers for calm and focus, growth hormone for vision, steroids for strength, I'd expect.
Dan
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 13:55:26
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 3:55 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Donald Munro wrote:
> > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >> Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
> >> capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
>
> > Come to think of it, there may be something to this national teams tour.
> > Just think of the fun we'd have if there was a Russian team, a Georgian
> > team, a Kazakh team and a Belarussian team. The team tactics could be
> > real fun involving polonium in the water bottles and RPG's in the top
> > tube. The peloton might even literally explode when the attacks occur.
>
> What about a sectarian team tour? Sunnis, Shias, Catholics, Mormons,
> Pentacostals, Sufis, Hindus, Bhuddists, Raelians, Scientologists,
> Aetheists, Branch Davidians, Secular Nihilists, all vying to show their
> beliefs lead them to be strongest, or that their god(s) were strongest on
> that day. It makes sense because you know the Mormon team would be clean
> and they would be the new "Millar line."
>
> --
> Bill Asher
Figuring that you'd want to go with fundamentalist teams:
The mormons and Muslims would be too worn out from their multiple
wives to place well so they are out. The Catholics are off on Sunday,
the Jews on Saturday so they lose out. The Bhuddists just cant turn a
crank in anger so they are off the back. The scientlogists and
raelians would be sucked back to their spaceships from a mountaintop.
Janet Reno is still alive, manlier, and uglier than Tammy T, so the
Davidians have no chance. I'd have to put my money on the Athiests or
Nihilists with the nod going to the Nihilists because they would get
the best dope and do whatever it took.
Bill C
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:50:55
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 4:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net >
wrote:
<bullshit snipped >
Dumbass -
When will you realize that as long as drugs remain a part of our
culture they will also remain part of the subset of the culture that
is professional sport?
You're basically a 2007 rbr usenet version of Nancy Reagan in the
'80s. - Just Say No!
The War On Drugs didn't work then and it won't now.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:45:53
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 3:32 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Aug 1, 3:18 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 8:13 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 9:06 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > <Bunch snipped>
>
> > > > > On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> > > >> In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
> > > > Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
> > > > I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
> > > > not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
> > > > line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
> > > > new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
> > > > in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
>
> > > I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
> > > much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
> > > diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
> > > of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
> > > with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
> > > scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
> > > IMO.
> > > I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
> > > he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
> > > He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
> > > nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.
>
> > > > > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> > > > > the Guardian.
> > > > > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > > > > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> > > > I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
>
> > > They've finally figured out that they can still rule without threat
> > > much more comfortably by a limited capitalist system. Russia is
> > > moving pretty quickly back towards the Chinese model of both economy
> > > and political control.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Not quite.
>
> > Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
> > capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> He's worked to consolidate the economy into the hands of his friends
> and supporters. You are able to conduct capitalist business as long as
> you support the vision of the State that Putin has. His actions
> against numerous companies and businessmen have made that incredibly
> clear.
> It's like Chavez has said to the press "You can do it my way, keep
> your mouth shut, and stay, or well drive you out." Same for businesses
> in both places.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just to add some documentation:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/18/AR2006111801012_pf.html
http://www.busineKremlin Inc. Widening Control Over Industry
Critics Say Russian Government Is Using Takeovers to Do Its Political
Business
By Peter Finn
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, November 19, 2006; A01
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_39/b3901158_mz037.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_39/b3901071_mz054.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/10/business/forum.php
Bill C
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| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:32:24
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 3:18 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 1, 8:13 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 9:06 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > <Bunch snipped>
>
> > > > On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> > >> In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
> > > Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
> > > I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
> > > not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
> > > line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
> > > new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
> > > in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
>
> > I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
> > much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
> > diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
> > of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
> > with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
> > scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
> > IMO.
> > I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
> > he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
> > He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
> > nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.
>
> > > > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> > > > the Guardian.
> > > > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > > > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> > > I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
>
> > They've finally figured out that they can still rule without threat
> > much more comfortably by a limited capitalist system. Russia is
> > moving pretty quickly back towards the Chinese model of both economy
> > and political control.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Not quite.
>
> Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
> capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
He's worked to consolidate the economy into the hands of his friends
and supporters. You are able to conduct capitalist business as long as
you support the vision of the State that Putin has. His actions
against numerous companies and businessmen have made that incredibly
clear.
It's like Chavez has said to the press "You can do it my way, keep
your mouth shut, and stay, or well drive you out." Same for businesses
in both places.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:18:43
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 8:13 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Aug 1, 9:06 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> wrote:
>
> > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > <Bunch snipped>
>
> > > On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> >> In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
> > Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
> > I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
> > not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
> > line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
> > new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
> > in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
>
> I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
> much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
> diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
> of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
> with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
> scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
> IMO.
> I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
> he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
> He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
> nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.
>
>
>
> > > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> > > the Guardian.
> > > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> > I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
>
> They've finally figured out that they can still rule without threat
> much more comfortably by a limited capitalist system. Russia is
> moving pretty quickly back towards the Chinese model of both economy
> and political control.
Dumbass -
Not quite.
Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 21:26:41
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
> capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
Come to think of it, there may be something to this national teams tour.
Just think of the fun we'd have if there was a Russian team, a Georgian
team, a Kazakh team and a Belarussian team. The team tactics could be
real fun involving polonium in the water bottles and RPG's in the top
tube. The peloton might even literally explode when the attacks occur.
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 19:55:41
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>> Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
>> capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
>
> Come to think of it, there may be something to this national teams tour.
> Just think of the fun we'd have if there was a Russian team, a Georgian
> team, a Kazakh team and a Belarussian team. The team tactics could be
> real fun involving polonium in the water bottles and RPG's in the top
> tube. The peloton might even literally explode when the attacks occur.
>
What about a sectarian team tour? Sunnis, Shias, Catholics, Mormons,
Pentacostals, Sufis, Hindus, Bhuddists, Raelians, Scientologists,
Aetheists, Branch Davidians, Secular Nihilists, all vying to show their
beliefs lead them to be strongest, or that their god(s) were strongest on
that day. It makes sense because you know the Mormon team would be clean
and they would be the new "Millar line."
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Aug 2007 16:34:49
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Donald Munro wrote:
>> Come to think of it, there may be something to this national teams tour.
>> Just think of the fun we'd have if there was a Russian team, a Georgian
>> team, a Kazakh team and a Belarussian team. The team tactics could be
>> real fun involving polonium in the water bottles and RPG's in the top
>> tube. The peloton might even literally explode when the attacks occur.
William Asher wrote:
> What about a sectarian team tour? Sunnis, Shias, Catholics, Mormons,
> Pentacostals, Sufis, Hindus, Bhuddists, Raelians, Scientologists,
> Aetheists, Branch Davidians, Secular Nihilists, all vying to show their
> beliefs lead them to be strongest, or that their god(s) were strongest on
> that day. It makes sense because you know the Mormon team would be clean
> and they would be the new "Millar line."
So is the Mennonite team clean too, or do they have specialized
testosterone, beer and Jack Daniels cocktails ?
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 23:08:53
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article <Xns997F837286713FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4 >,
William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Donald Munro wrote:
>
> > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >> Putin is going after the political control but leaving out the
> >> capitalist part. Nationalizing all the oil companies and such.
> >
> > Come to think of it, there may be something to this national teams tour.
> > Just think of the fun we'd have if there was a Russian team, a Georgian
> > team, a Kazakh team and a Belarussian team. The team tactics could be
> > real fun involving polonium in the water bottles and RPG's in the top
> > tube. The peloton might even literally explode when the attacks occur.
> >
>
> What about a sectarian team tour? Sunnis, Shias, Catholics, Mormons,
> Pentacostals, Sufis, Hindus, Bhuddists, Raelians, Scientologists,
> Aetheists, Branch Davidians, Secular Nihilists, all vying to show their
> beliefs lead them to be strongest, or that their god(s) were strongest on
> that day. It makes sense because you know the Mormon team would be clean
> and they would be the new "Millar line."
Watch out for them Episalopians. They're a bad bunch.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 11:50:07
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 1:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> > National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> > between their legs they will still cheat.
>
> Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue? Cheating
> is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
> manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
> universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on tests,
> etc.
>
> Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
> cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what the
> ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the most-obvious
> indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
> (perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize those
> attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
> end?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/7081816
Quoted:
His local golf club in Florence released a statement later Wednesday,
defending him and saying that he had informed authorities at the time
of the test that he had taken the drug for almost two years to treat a
prostate problem.
Golf has come under increased pressure from the World Anti-Doping
Agency to introduce random drug testing after South African veteran
Gary Player claimed at the British Open last month that some golfers
were taking performance-enhancing drugs.
I don't think Wada is going after the rich, white guy, league here in
the US that is the PGA, or at least not for long.
Way more lawyers, and politicians golf, and are fanatical about it,
than race bicycles.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 13:20:57
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
> His local golf club in Florence released a statement later Wednesday,
> defending him and saying that he had informed authorities at the time
> of the test that he had taken the drug for almost two years to treat a
> prostate problem.
>
> Golf has come under increased pressure from the World Anti-Doping
> Agency to introduce random drug testing after South African veteran
> Gary Player claimed at the British Open last month that some golfers
> were taking performance-enhancing drugs.
You've got to wonder what type of performance-enhancing drug would be good
for golf. Are there drugs that simultaneously calm you down, give you better
control and more strength? This could show my complete ignorance of just
about everything golf-related, of course.
In this particular case, the issue is the masking of possible steroid use,
and I just don't associate steroids with being calm, nerves of steel, that
sort of thing.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1185994207.540225.215710@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 1, 1:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> > National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
>> > between their legs they will still cheat.
>>
>> Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue?
>> Cheating
>> is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
>> manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
>> universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on
>> tests,
>> etc.
>>
>> Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
>> cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what
>> the
>> ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the
>> most-obvious
>> indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
>> (perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize
>> those
>> attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
>> end?
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>
> http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/7081816
>
> Quoted:
>
> His local golf club in Florence released a statement later Wednesday,
> defending him and saying that he had informed authorities at the time
> of the test that he had taken the drug for almost two years to treat a
> prostate problem.
>
> Golf has come under increased pressure from the World Anti-Doping
> Agency to introduce random drug testing after South African veteran
> Gary Player claimed at the British Open last month that some golfers
> were taking performance-enhancing drugs.
>
>
> I don't think Wada is going after the rich, white guy, league here in
> the US that is the PGA, or at least not for long.
> Way more lawyers, and politicians golf, and are fanatical about it,
> than race bicycles.
> Bill C
>
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 10:55:52
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 11:38 am, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> between their legs they will still cheat.
Just the same as your rowers.
In the USA, our Tour coverage, on the Versus network, was sponsored by
a "natural male enhancement" drug company.
I guess that isn't "cheating" since all's fair in love and war (no one
having raised a comparable-to-doping-in-cycling public outcry IRT the
known heart attack-Viagra usage link).
At least those aged athletes didn't die in their sleep. Indeed; they
were "Doing Something They Loved"! --D-y
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 09:44:05
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 6:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net >
wrote:
(earlier stuff that got shot down pretty quickly snipped)
> There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
That wouldn't give the fine folks at the lab much time to leak results
to the Press, would it now?
Blood testing at the feed zones? On the podium itself?
> Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
> human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
> transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
> each team..........."
The cost of increased purity is going to be mighty dear.
Imbedded dope cops? And cops to watch the cops?
Hey, I have an idea: Let's not make rules we can't enforce, and try it
that way for a nice extended trial period-- say, five years or so.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8162930835755001242
What if EPO use could be open? The microdosing technique supposedly
used (found by trial and error?) by many pro cyclists seems to be
safe, since we haven't been reading about riders dying in their sleep
for some time now.
What if "sports medicine" could be made legitimate ("open", not
underground), lowering risks for participants? IOW, what if chemical
performance enhancement could be made safe, or as "safe" as
participation itself?
http://tinyurl.com/2nyajf --D-y
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 20:33:48
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> The cost of increased purity is going to be mighty dear.
>
> Imbedded dope cops? And cops to watch the cops?
It should keep the ex stasi employees who may now be unemployed, gainfully
employed.
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 09:38:05
From:
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 7:23 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...
>
> > ".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
> > organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
> > commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make the
> > point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
> > problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function without
> > them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
> > organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
>
> > Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom Simpson
> > died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
> > doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
> > without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
> > harder to dope.
>
> > There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
> > Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
> > human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
> > transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
> > each team..........."
>
> Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
> and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
> infrastructure provided to those athletes.
> Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> the Guardian.
> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Correct
National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
between their legs they will still cheat.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 17:31:43
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
> National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> between their legs they will still cheat.
Why do we continue to act as if this is a cycling-specific issue? Cheating
is rampant throughout society. White-collar crime is rampant (market
manipulation, option schemes, embezzlement...), students at the highest
universities in the land are not questioning their "need" to cheat on tests,
etc.
Having a bike between your legs does not in any way change your desire to
cheat; it only changes the mechanism. Society at large has decided what the
ethical parameters for life have become. Cycling is one of the most-obvious
indications of were those parameters lie, because we actually believe
(perhaps naively) that something can be done about it, and publicize those
attempts. We air our dirty laundry for all the world to see, and to what
end?
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<anton2468@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1185986285.850511.164700@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 1, 7:23 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...
>>
>> > ".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
>> > organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
>> > commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
>> > the
>> > point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
>> > problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
>> > without
>> > them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
>> > organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
>>
>> > Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
>> > Simpson
>> > died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with
>> > the
>> > doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams.
>> > Arguably,
>> > without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would
>> > be
>> > harder to dope.
>>
>> > There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
>> > start.
>> > Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
>> > human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
>> > transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
>> > to
>> > each team..........."
>>
>> Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
>> and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
>> infrastructure provided to those athletes.
>> Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
>> the Guardian.
>> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
>> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Correct
>
> National short or Television Program shirt. If they have a bike
> between their legs they will still cheat.
>
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 08:36:34
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 11:13 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
><snipped>
> I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
> much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
> diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
> of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
> with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
> scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
> IMO.
> I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
> he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
> He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
> nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.
>
>
>
> Bill C
One of the French folks wandering around at Augsburg commented once
that the "C.D" on diplomatic bags did not stand for "Corps
Diplomatique" but "Contrebande Distingu=E9".
He was in a position to know since he was part of the courrier group.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 08:13:13
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 9:06 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net >
wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> <Bunch snipped>
>
> > On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
>> In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
> Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
> I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
> not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
> line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
> new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
> in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
I would argue that the resources available to a State to dope are
much more significant. Diplomatic bags are untoucheable. Generally
diplomatic staff are exempt from most legal issues. States have lots
of experience in conducting covert operations and the tools to do it
with. They have access to the latest drug research, and the
scientists. Lots of reasons that State doping should be more effective
IMO.
I don't know why, other than his disdain for capitalism/commercialism
he threw that idea in with the good suggestions he had.
He chose to introduce politcal philosophy and the suggestion is just
nonsense given the history of State doping in sports.
>
> > Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> > the Guardian.
> > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
>
>
They've finally figured out that they can still rule without threat
much more comfortably by a limited capitalist system. Russia is
moving pretty quickly back towards the Chinese model of both economy
and political control.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 05:55:45
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 8:35 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
> > and E. German Olympic teams.
>
> The US National team practiced blood doping (legal at the time) in the 1984 Olympics.
>
> There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than improve Italy's chances, finally.
>
> Dan
Yep, they did. The idea that National teams are somehow more ethical
than trade teams is ridiculous. Additionally, States have much larger
resources to dedicate to making the doping more sophisticated, and
defending their athletes.
This got sent along to me and is better than the Guardian piece:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070731
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 04:23:40
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net >
wrote:
> http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...
>
> ".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
> organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
> commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make the
> point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
> problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function without
> them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
> organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
>
> Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom Simpson
> died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
> doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
> without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
> harder to dope.
>
> There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the start.
> Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
> human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
> transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective to
> each team..........."
Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
infrastructure provided to those athletes.
Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
the Guardian.
Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 23:31:31
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On 08/01/2007 05:23 AM, in article
1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Bill C"
<tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote:
> Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> the Guardian.
> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
3 of the last 4 presidents of the United States were daily readers of the
Guardian.
I'll let you guess which idiot does not.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 13:06:18
From: B. Lafferty
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
> wrote:
>> http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...
>>
>> ".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
>> organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
>> commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
>> the
>> point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
>> problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
>> without
>> them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
>> organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
>>
>> Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
>> Simpson
>> died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
>> doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
>> without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
>> harder to dope.
>>
>> There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
>> start.
>> Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
>> human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
>> transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
>> to
>> each team..........."
>
> Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
> and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
> infrastructure provided to those athletes.
In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one. Combine that with on the
line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
> Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
> the Guardian.
> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
> Bill C
>
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 10:36:12
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:06:18 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <blafferty1@verizon.nospam.net >
wrote:
>
>"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:1185967420.054725.228560@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 1, 7:14 am, "B. Lafferty" <blaffer...@verizon.nospam.net>
>> wrote:
>>> http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_...
>>>
>>> ".......A partial return to national teams, as proposed by the Tour
>>> organisers? That might play its part, if only to rein in the rampant
>>> commercialism that has contributed to the current free-for-all, to make
>>> the
>>> point to professional teams that there is an alternative. Part of the
>>> problem, it seems, is that some teams think the race won't function
>>> without
>>> them. They need to get the message that it can. Next year, if the Tour
>>> organisers have any bottle, maybe it will.
>>>
>>> Putting on national colours won't stop doping just like that - Tom
>>> Simpson
>>> died in a GB jersey, lest we forget - but it would cut the ties with the
>>> doping infrastructure that must travel with some of the teams. Arguably,
>>> without the finance and the structure (doctors, couriers etc) it would be
>>> harder to dope.
>>>
>>> There are other measures: blood testing up to 30 minutes before the
>>> start.
>>> Ramping up out-of-competition tests. Hammering Wada to push through the
>>> human growth hormone test and a way of detecting heterologous blood
>>> transfusions. Appointing a neutral doping control officer-cum-detective
>>> to
>>> each team..........."
>>
>> Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
>> and E. German Olympic teams. There was definitely no organized
>> infrastructure provided to those athletes.
>
>In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
>Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
>I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
>not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one.
Oh, bullshit. If logistics were that big a hurdle jazz musicians would've had to
cancel European tours.
> Combine that with on the
>line testing and other suggestions and you might have a decent start in a
>new ofensive against doping. To simply reject what WF writes because it is
>in the Guardian is beneath your reasoning abilty Bill.
It's generally sensible to discount any opinion from them. I've marvelled at
their ability to report and write well and then derive an ideologically sound
conclusion that fails to follow the facts that were so well presented.
In any case National teams ain't gonna fix it. About all it does is direct more
power to ASO. THey have not been particularly deft in using what power they
have.
Ron
>> Once again we have a steaming pile of fertilizer being provided by
>> the Guardian.
>> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
>> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
>I thought China was a laizze fair capitalist country. :-)
>
>> Bill C
>>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 17:23:41
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article <a861b35fuvfpercrdcf0gddgr5dv817g57@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> >In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
> >Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
> >I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
> >not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one.
>
> Oh, bullshit. If logistics were that big a hurdle jazz musicians would've had
> to cancel European tours.
Exactly. The notion that national teams would make it *logistically harder* to
dope is absurd.
Example: years ago, the Heartbreakers (the Johnny Thunders one, not the Tom Petty
one) were tired of staying in London but they couldn't afford to fly back to the US.
So they decided to get deported. After a rough sea crossing (which didn't help make
them appear any less unsteady than normal) after a gig in Amsterdam, they got to the
Customs station and Thunders fell over and dropped his dope. Walter Lure busied
himself asking Customs officers for a light for the enormous spliff he had while
Jerry Nolan guzzled whisky out of the bottle. Their road manager shrugged and said,
"They're musicians" - the Customs guy said, "Oh - that's alright then" and waved 'em
through. They never batted an eye at the carnage (a "four man synchronized substance
abuse team" as the book said). Customs may be different now but I seriously doubt
that being with a national team rather than a trade team would make the slightest
difference to the logistics of sneaking dope around.
> It's generally sensible to discount any opinion from them. I've marvelled at
> their ability to report and write well and then derive an ideologically sound
> conclusion that fails to follow the facts that were so well presented.
Well, you can say the same thhing about the WSJ. They have some incredible
reporters writing good articles but the conclusions made on the op-ed page are
regularly at odds with the story on the front of the paper. Sometimes you'd think the
op-ed guys were required to *not* read the actual paper prior to writing their bit.
>
> In any case National teams ain't gonna fix it. About all it does is direct
> more power to ASO. THey have not been particularly deft in using what power they
> have.
Well, they certainly haven't been particularly adept at using it for the general
good of cycling. On that count they're about even with the UCI.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 10:18:48
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:23:41 -0700, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com >
wrote:
>In article <a861b35fuvfpercrdcf0gddgr5dv817g57@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> >In those systems, the state acts as a substitute for western commercialism.
>> >Foteringham said that national teams were only part of a possible solution.
>> >I think his point that national teams would make it more difficult (albeit,
>> >not impossible) logisticaly to dope is a good one.
>>
>> Oh, bullshit. If logistics were that big a hurdle jazz musicians would've had
>> to cancel European tours.
>
> Exactly. The notion that national teams would make it *logistically harder* to
>dope is absurd.
>
> Example: years ago, the Heartbreakers (the Johnny Thunders one, not the Tom Petty
>one) were tired of staying in London but they couldn't afford to fly back to the US.
>So they decided to get deported. After a rough sea crossing (which didn't help make
>them appear any less unsteady than normal) after a gig in Amsterdam, they got to the
>Customs station and Thunders fell over and dropped his dope. Walter Lure busied
>himself asking Customs officers for a light for the enormous spliff he had while
>Jerry Nolan guzzled whisky out of the bottle. Their road manager shrugged and said,
>"They're musicians" - the Customs guy said, "Oh - that's alright then" and waved 'em
>through. They never batted an eye at the carnage (a "four man synchronized substance
>abuse team" as the book said). Customs may be different now but I seriously doubt
>that being with a national team rather than a trade team would make the slightest
>difference to the logistics of sneaking dope around.
Don't get enough Johnny Thunder / Dolls stories these days. Have you seen the
Killer Kane movie, New York Doll? An incredibly strange path.
Ron
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 23:51:04
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article <6jp3b391hc7cumtba6l8dsib1n27g4rubm@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Don't get enough Johnny Thunder / Dolls stories these days. Have you seen
> the Killer Kane movie, New York Doll? An incredibly strange path.
Yeah, I did [1] and it is a good one. If you like the Dolls or any of the stuff
from that era, you could do far worse than read "Trash" - lots of good (and crazy)
stories.
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/91493208998e93cc?hl
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 11:23:33
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 23:51:04 -0700, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com >
wrote:
>In article <6jp3b391hc7cumtba6l8dsib1n27g4rubm@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't get enough Johnny Thunder / Dolls stories these days. Have you seen
>> the Killer Kane movie, New York Doll? An incredibly strange path.
>
> Yeah, I did [1] and it is a good one. If you like the Dolls or any of the stuff
>from that era, you could do far worse than read "Trash" - lots of good (and crazy)
>stories.
>
>[1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/91493208998e93cc?hl
Okay, so you told me about it. Look, I remember the Dolls from the day and like
most people who can say that seem to have a few gaps in the memory mesh.
Actually I was just a bit young for their heyday (to be fair, that was measured
in weeks) but they sure as hell influenced my torn-fishnet post-glam thing a bit
later in the 70s.
Ron
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 19:59:32
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article <bph6b318pggl8d9m8go6evamoclqlvf7tg@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 23:51:04 -0700, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <6jp3b391hc7cumtba6l8dsib1n27g4rubm@4ax.com>,
> > RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Don't get enough Johnny Thunder / Dolls stories these days. Have you seen
> >> the Killer Kane movie, New York Doll? An incredibly strange path.
> >
> > Yeah, I did [1] and it is a good one. If you like the Dolls or any of the
> > stuff from that era, you could do far worse than read "Trash" - lots of good
> > (and crazy) stories.
> >
> >[1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/91493208998e93cc?hl
>
> Okay, so you told me about it. Look, I remember the Dolls from the day and
> like most people who can say that seem to have a few gaps in the memory mesh.
I knew about them back then too. Unless you were in NYC, it was pretty hard info
to come by. Their label didn't have a clue what to do with 'em (and they sure didn't
help much".
> Actually I was just a bit young for their heyday (to be fair, that was
> measured in weeks) but they sure as hell influenced my torn-fishnet post-glam
> thing a bit later in the 70s.
They were pretty far ahead of their time, no doubt. Very influential, though -
from both a musical and style standpoint.
By the way, they have a new record out that's pretty good.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 23:16:34
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article
<YOURhoward-E5F95B.17234101082007@comcast.dca.giganews.
com >,
Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> Example: years ago, the Heartbreakers (the Johnny Thunders one, not the Tom Petty
> one) were tired of staying in London but they couldn't afford to fly back to the US.
> So they decided to get deported. After a rough sea crossing (which didn't help make
> them appear any less unsteady than normal) after a gig in Amsterdam, they got to the
> Customs station and Thunders fell over and dropped his dope. Walter Lure busied
> himself asking Customs officers for a light for the enormous spliff he had while
> Jerry Nolan guzzled whisky out of the bottle. Their road manager shrugged and said,
> "They're musicians" - the Customs guy said, "Oh - that's alright then" and waved 'em
> through. They never batted an eye at the carnage (a "four man synchronized substance
> abuse team" as the book said). Customs may be different now but I seriously doubt
> that being with a national team rather than a trade team would make the slightest
> difference to the logistics of sneaking dope around.
That has me laughing. Is it true? Really, verifiably true? Metaphysical certitude?
A scene like that and a couple others could make a movie.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 23:43:59
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article <rubrum-F7DBBB.23163401082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <YOURhoward-E5F95B.17234101082007@comcast.dca.giganews.
> com>,
> Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
> > Example: years ago, the Heartbreakers (the Johnny Thunders one, not the
> > Tom Petty one) were tired of staying in London but they couldn't afford to
> > fly back to the US. So they decided to get deported. After a rough sea
> > crossing (which didn't help make them appear any less unsteady than normal)
> > after a gig in Amsterdam, they got to the Customs station and Thunders fell
> > over and dropped his dope. Walter Lure busied himself asking Customs
> > officers for a light for the enormous spliff he had while Jerry Nolan
> > guzzled whisky out of the bottle. Their road manager shrugged and said,
> > "They're musicians" - the Customs guy said, "Oh - that's alright then" and
> > waved 'em through. They never batted an eye at the carnage (a "four man
> > synchronized substance abuse team" as the book said). Customs may be
> > different now but I seriously doubt that being with a national team rather
> > than a trade team would make the slightest difference to the logistics of
> > sneaking dope around.
>
> That has me laughing. Is it true? Really, verifiably true? Metaphysical
> certitude?
> A scene like that and a couple others could make a movie.
It's the recollection of the road manager, Dave Goodman, at least. I'd seen it
once before but it's in "Trash - the Complete New York Dolls" by Needs and Porter.
Verifiable? Hmm, that could be asking a lot. Half of the band are dead but one of the
living ones (Walter Lure) is now a stockbroker in New York.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:35:23
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Bill C wrote:
> Yep, ramapnt commercialism definitely drove the doping by the Chinese
> and E. German Olympic teams.
The US National team practiced blood doping (legal at the time) in the 1984 Olympics.
There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than improve Italy's chances, finally.
Dan
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 08:27:57
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than
> improve Italy's chances, finally.
It'd be a boon to the French regional teams.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 15:05:13
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> There's no reason to believe national teams will do anything other than
> improve Italy's chances, finally.
Italy will take over from Telekom as the most tactically astute team who
never chase down their own riders.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 13:48:12
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Bill C wrote:
> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Lenin is into formaldehyde.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 11:14:09
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
In article
<46b072b9$0$8614$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com >,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
> > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> Lenin is into formaldehyde.
You believe? The contents of that diorama is a wax effigy.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 20:50:00
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
Bill C wrote:
>> > Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
>> > for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
Donald Munro wrote:
>> Lenin is into formaldehyde.
Michael Press wrote:
> You believe? The contents of that diorama is a wax effigy.
Tyler is innocent and that is his chimera.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 07:08:09
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: No Winner--Fixing the Tour
|
"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:46b072b9$0$8614$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> Bill C wrote:
>> Then again the Guardian probably had no problem with the doping done
>> for the glory of Socialism. Fits their world mission.
>
> Lenin is into formaldehyde.
And looks more like a Talosian than Rasmussen
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